:00:10. > :00:21.They show that gets to the heart and soul of the week's stories. Should
:00:22. > :00:30.the victims of crime have a bigger say in the punishment of offenders?
:00:31. > :00:40.The justice system is for the criminals. Can pray really heal? --
:00:41. > :00:46.Prior. And the outspoken Baroness Trumpington gives us a piece of her
:00:47. > :00:52.mind. When you were living with your husband as a headmaster's wife, you
:00:53. > :00:58.smoked and drank and has behaved badly... You are making me out to be
:00:59. > :01:03.a drunken old.... You also say you're not a worry -- well-behaved
:01:04. > :01:22.Lord. That is true. I have lived too long in the wild, wild world.
:01:23. > :01:28.And that is all coming up. Let's meet some of our guests talking
:01:29. > :01:33.about the many topics that we are discussing today. Mehdi Hasan is
:01:34. > :01:41.political editor of Huffington Post in the UK. He is usually tweeting
:01:42. > :01:48.about us. Luke get her as is a criminal law solicitor. Mark Castle
:01:49. > :01:53.spent 31 years in the army and has worked on policing issues. He became
:01:54. > :01:58.the new head of victims support a couple of months ago. -- Victim
:01:59. > :02:02.Support. And Katie Gornall is the Police and Crime Commissioner for
:02:03. > :02:09.Sussex. We would like to know what you think. You can comment by phone,
:02:10. > :02:23.text, e-mail, Twitter par Facebook. -- or.
:02:24. > :02:29.If you or someone in your family is a victim of crime it can be
:02:30. > :02:34.devastating. Surviving victims or close family members are allowed to
:02:35. > :02:37.make a statement in court in front of the accused were they describe
:02:38. > :02:41.the impact on their lives. It is designed to be taken into account by
:02:42. > :02:45.a judge before sentencing. This week the experience of the parents of a
:02:46. > :02:52.murder victim raised questions about whether victims statements carried
:02:53. > :02:55.any Wade. My son was brutally murdered on the 23rd of March 2001.
:02:56. > :02:57.any Wade. My son was brutally murdered on the 23rd of March On
:02:58. > :03:00.that dreadful night we were taken into a crowded waiting room and told
:03:01. > :03:07.that our son was in a very serious condition. He hadn't stabbed several
:03:08. > :03:13.times. That site will haunt us forever. For Geraldine and Peter,
:03:14. > :03:19.writing a victim statement was a very difficult experience. Last
:03:20. > :03:24.week, a parole hearing was held to decide if the two men convicted of
:03:25. > :03:31.the Sun's mortar would be moved to an open prison. -- the sun's murder.
:03:32. > :03:36.The couple overheard a private conversation involving the judge.
:03:37. > :03:42.The judge said to somebody else in the room, I feel so very sorry for
:03:43. > :03:45.these families. They make these statements thinking they will make a
:03:46. > :03:49.difference but they make no difference at all. Somebody should
:03:50. > :03:55.tell them. Peter and I looked at each other in disbelief. We were
:03:56. > :04:00.dumbfounded. The heartache that we go through to do these things, to be
:04:01. > :04:10.told that it doesn't make any difference. It is quite sickening to
:04:11. > :04:15.hear. Why have we done it in the first place? The judge has
:04:16. > :04:18.apologised for his comments. He said while the statements had an impact,
:04:19. > :04:25.they did not affect the parole board's assessment of the
:04:26. > :04:30.prisoner's risk. I believe the judge was very honest. He didn't realise
:04:31. > :04:36.that we could hear his Commons. -- his comments. But I think what he
:04:37. > :04:41.was saying is exactly what happens. The justice goes to the criminals,
:04:42. > :04:45.not the victims families. The couple now want more weight given to victim
:04:46. > :04:53.statements and greater clarity about their purpose. It is all right
:04:54. > :05:00.receiving bundles of paperwork that say they do listen to statements. In
:05:01. > :05:05.our hearts, what we have felt for years and years is that they don't
:05:06. > :05:11.listen to statements. That has now been proven to us, with us having
:05:12. > :05:18.this little insight into how the system is working. Or should I say,
:05:19. > :05:23.not working. Geraldine and Peter McGinty. That is the question for
:05:24. > :05:43.our vote this week. Should victims have a greater say over punishment?
:05:44. > :05:53.Results will be announced at the end of the programme. Mark, when you
:05:54. > :06:01.hear what the McGinty 's are saying, it is heartbreaking? It is. What is
:06:02. > :06:09.seen very clearly is the emotional impact it had on the couple. What we
:06:10. > :06:13.have found is that the biggest issue here is victims feel they are
:06:14. > :06:17.marginalised by the system and their views are not taken into account.
:06:18. > :06:21.The judge said they make no difference and somebody should tell
:06:22. > :06:28.them. The macro exactly. We need sentencing guidelines to reflect the
:06:29. > :06:32.view of the victim. What harm has been caused to the victim? And the
:06:33. > :06:38.impact it has had on them emotionally. The Crown Prosecution
:06:39. > :06:44.Service the statement should be considered and taken into account
:06:45. > :06:50.prior to passing sentence. As a? In reality, I do not think they are.
:06:51. > :06:54.There are sentencing guidelines. They narrowed down the discretion of
:06:55. > :07:01.the judge quite considerably. It is very rare for a victim statement to
:07:02. > :07:09.make an impact on a sentence. What is the point? Exactly. These
:07:10. > :07:13.statements are paraded before the court to give the victim is a sense
:07:14. > :07:18.they have taken part, a sense they have been included in the process.
:07:19. > :07:22.The law prevents them from taking a more active part in the process. The
:07:23. > :07:26.tragic part about the couple is they were really let down because they
:07:27. > :07:29.did not know their views could not be legally considered in the context
:07:30. > :07:38.of that decision. The judge was right. They were let down. Katie,
:07:39. > :07:42.the point of these statements was to put the victim at the heart of the
:07:43. > :07:48.Criminal Justice Act system because they felt they did not have a say in
:07:49. > :07:54.something that changed their lives. Is something wrong and can it be
:07:55. > :07:59.redressed? Do these statements work? I think they do work when they are
:08:00. > :08:02.taken seriously, search -- certainly pre-sentencing. How can a judge make
:08:03. > :08:08.a decision without looking at a crime in its totality. Listening to
:08:09. > :08:13.the impact on the victim, it is not just the immediate impact, it is the
:08:14. > :08:16.long-lasting impact. Businesses can also make statements. They can talk
:08:17. > :08:21.about the economic impact it has had on the business etc. There is almost
:08:22. > :08:24.a cultural shift that needs to be taken. The more we talk about this
:08:25. > :08:30.and the more we encourage victims to make these statements, I think we
:08:31. > :08:35.will see greater benefit. You seem to be suggesting that judges do not
:08:36. > :08:39.take into account the impact the crimes have had on the lives of
:08:40. > :08:48.victims. I think they do. The guidance says they have two. But
:08:49. > :08:51.with the McGinty family, this was at the parole board. While they have to
:08:52. > :08:57.make decisions about risks to the public, there is still a place for
:08:58. > :09:01.the statement of the victims. In Sussex we have an open prison.
:09:02. > :09:09.People are being resettled there. They may be sex offenders. They are
:09:10. > :09:14.going to have less control over these prisoners here. If they pose a
:09:15. > :09:18.danger to the public, or worse still if their victim is close by, that
:09:19. > :09:25.should be taken into account. That is taken into account. Victims talk
:09:26. > :09:29.about the fact they do not want the offender to come too close to their
:09:30. > :09:33.house, they can make that known and the judge will take that into
:09:34. > :09:36.account. I want to pick up on something you mentioned. The
:09:37. > :09:43.therapeutic value of these statements. Do you think there is
:09:44. > :09:47.something in that? That they are still good to do if only the victims
:09:48. > :09:52.feel their voices heard within a courtroom setting and the offenders
:09:53. > :09:57.can hear it? Definitely. Victims should be heard. Luke raised the
:09:58. > :10:04.point very well and Peter McGinty, poor man, raised it. What is the
:10:05. > :10:08.purpose? The Ministry of Justice have not got it right in terms of
:10:09. > :10:11.explaining what it is for. It does have therapeutic value. It could act
:10:12. > :10:16.as a form of closure for people. It could even help an offender feel
:10:17. > :10:21.remorse and begin a process of rehabilitation. I don't think it
:10:22. > :10:25.should have an impact on sentencing. Why should the fact that a crime is
:10:26. > :10:30.committed against somebody who is a family member, impact on that crime?
:10:31. > :10:39.If I murder somebody with no family members, should I be punished in a
:10:40. > :10:46.lesser way? I slightly worry about that. We do not want to have a knot
:10:47. > :10:53.level playing field. In other words, if you do not have anybody to put
:10:54. > :10:59.that case? Exactly. If you are an orphan or a recent immigrant with no
:11:00. > :11:05.family. We have recently done a report in which only 16% of victims
:11:06. > :11:11.felt that for what had happened to them had not been -- have been taken
:11:12. > :11:17.into account. That is too low. When you say influencing sentencing, in
:11:18. > :11:20.what way? To the extent where victims can say, I think that
:11:21. > :11:27.offender deserves that amount of time? Victims are not asking to
:11:28. > :11:32.dictate what sentences are. Victims accept the judiciary are there to
:11:33. > :11:36.carry out that function. Where they are concerned is that they do not
:11:37. > :11:41.feel they are part of this process. This is an adversarial process
:11:42. > :11:44.between the state and the fender. And yet the victim, the individual
:11:45. > :11:49.who has suffered harm and has the greatest impact, is completely
:11:50. > :11:52.marginalised. We need to more than just talk about the victim being at
:11:53. > :11:56.the heart of the Criminal Justice Act them, and put them into a
:11:57. > :12:03.position where the impact can be taken into account. Should there be
:12:04. > :12:09.tougher sentences? There is a fear that by letting victims be able to
:12:10. > :12:15.make their statement at that point of sentencing, that sentences as a
:12:16. > :12:20.result will become much more harsh. That is not what victims are asking
:12:21. > :12:27.for. They want effective and appropriate punishment. That is what
:12:28. > :12:31.the probation service said. 84% are looking for effective and
:12:32. > :12:35.appropriate punishment. If somebody goes out and commit a street robbery
:12:36. > :12:41.against a person and that person reacts quite well, doesn't make a
:12:42. > :12:44.victim impact statement, doesn't feel psychologically --
:12:45. > :12:48.psychologically damaged, should a person get a lesser sentence than
:12:49. > :12:54.somebody who has gone out and psychologically damaged somebody? I
:12:55. > :12:58.think is more about the actual statement itself. Should that mean
:12:59. > :13:04.that somebody who has had that happened to them who wants to make a
:13:05. > :13:11.statement, is denied the opportunity to make a statement? If you are a
:13:12. > :13:14.victim of crime... I am consulting with the community remedy at the
:13:15. > :13:24.moment, which is taxing low-level crime. Anti-social behaviour. It is
:13:25. > :13:27.about when you have got a victim and an offender and the offender admits
:13:28. > :13:32.the crime. It does not warrant them going through the court system. The
:13:33. > :13:35.victim agrees. The victim has a choice of punishment. I am asking
:13:36. > :13:41.the public in Sussex and all my colleagues in the country, what sort
:13:42. > :13:45.of reparation would you like to see CROWD CHEER It could be anything
:13:46. > :13:49.from an apology, a face-to-face meeting, putting the crime right in
:13:50. > :13:58.the first place, mending the fence, or whatever. At the end it is still
:13:59. > :14:03.open to the judicial system? Yes. The response we have had so far has
:14:04. > :14:07.been massive. We have had nearly 2000 responses. It shows that the
:14:08. > :14:13.public do want a say. There is a difference here between the public
:14:14. > :14:19.having a say in victims having a say. That goes back to the
:14:20. > :14:20.therapeutic value. And victims having a say over punishment, which
:14:21. > :14:40.is what you seem to be suggesting. Kate and Luke. Luke raised, how can
:14:41. > :14:45.you create different classes of criminals, those who've created
:14:46. > :14:51.victims and died and left behind feels and those who haven't. That's
:14:52. > :14:54.my worry. We want proportionate retribution rather than revenge from
:14:55. > :14:59.individuals. People, of course they are going to react and say they want
:15:00. > :15:04.more power. If you ask them do you want more power and they'll say yes.
:15:05. > :15:10.We want a criminal justice system that people have confidence in.
:15:11. > :15:13.Agreed. What we are looking at is a system where victims feel that what
:15:14. > :15:19.has gone on is appropriate, that it has been effective. They all say to
:15:20. > :15:25.us that they want the reoffending to stop. 91% say that. They are not
:15:26. > :15:28.asking for harsh sentences, just for this to stop. And for more
:15:29. > :15:32.involvement. That's what we are asking you this morning. Our vote is
:15:33. > :16:12.still open, so do get Still to come on Sunday Morni Live:
:16:13. > :16:18.Baroness Trumpington and her recipe for a settled life. It is very nice
:16:19. > :16:26.of you to bring a bit of laughter to this world. And not dwell on bad
:16:27. > :16:38.things, but try and go through life having fun and doing a good job. The
:16:39. > :16:44.uneasy calm in Gaza this week seems short lived before the temporary
:16:45. > :16:50.three-day truce was over rockets were fired and the air strikes began
:16:51. > :16:57.and the death toll began to rise. It now stands at 2,000, 1,900 of those
:16:58. > :17:00.Palestinians. Here, reverberations have been keenly felt, particularly
:17:01. > :17:04.by the Muslim and Jewish communities.
:17:05. > :17:08.In London, the Tricycle Theatre said it couldn't stage the annual Jewish
:17:09. > :17:12.Film Festival while the organisers continued to receive some funding
:17:13. > :17:16.from the Israeli Government. In Edinburgh, two Israeli theatre
:17:17. > :17:20.companies cancelled shows at the fringe festival because of fears
:17:21. > :17:24.over protests. And an increase in the number of incidents against the
:17:25. > :17:28.Jewish communities has also raised concerns. There certainly has been a
:17:29. > :17:34.connection between what's taking place currently in Gaza and the
:17:35. > :17:39.anti-Semitism felt by the Jewish community in the UK. There is this
:17:40. > :17:43.visceral and often violent feeling now in and around the Jewish
:17:44. > :17:47.community that if I was physically looking Jewish I would think twice
:17:48. > :17:53.about walking on the street and identifying myself as Jewish. Muslim
:17:54. > :17:56.groups have also felt the impact of events in Gaza. HSBC wrote to three
:17:57. > :18:00.of them saying their accounts would be closed because they are outside
:18:01. > :18:06.what it called the bank's risk appetite. It said the decision
:18:07. > :18:13.because not based on race or religion and was part of an overall
:18:14. > :18:15.review of bank strategy. And in this week Baroness Warsi resigned over
:18:16. > :18:20.the Government's stance in the region. Over the last four weeks
:18:21. > :18:25.I've had everything I can at informal and formal meetings to try
:18:26. > :18:28.to convince colleagues that our policy on Gaza is morally
:18:29. > :18:31.indefensible, that it is not in British interests and it will have
:18:32. > :18:36.consequences for us internationally and here at home. But in the end I
:18:37. > :18:41.felt the Government's position wasn't moving and therefore I had to
:18:42. > :18:45.on a point of principle resign. The Government has dismissed Baroness
:18:46. > :18:49.Warsi's claims, saying policy has always been consistently clear,
:18:50. > :18:56.supporting a negotiated two-state solution. I'm now joined to discuss
:18:57. > :19:02.this situation in the UK by the Vice-President of the Board of
:19:03. > :19:10.Deputies of British Jews, founder of the Jewish campaign group, and the
:19:11. > :19:14.founder of the pro-Palestinian Palestinian group welcome all of you
:19:15. > :19:19.to the programme. Jonathan, I want to start with you. We heard the
:19:20. > :19:22.editor of Jewish news there saying there's a visceral and violent
:19:23. > :19:26.feeling at the moment towards Jewish community. He thinks twice about
:19:27. > :19:31.identifying himself as Jewish in public. Is that commonly felt? I
:19:32. > :19:38.think it is a feeling that some Jews are experiencing. I'm not, but the
:19:39. > :19:43.level of insecurity and deep concern about the environment around us is
:19:44. > :19:51.greater than at any time that I can remember. Hannah, do you think this
:19:52. > :19:57.is an anti-semitic feeling, an anti-Jewish feeling or anti-Israeli?
:19:58. > :20:00.I think it is all of them. The general public are unable and the
:20:01. > :20:06.Jewish community too are unable to work out where the boundaries are.
:20:07. > :20:10.Questionable what is statements criticism of Israeli Government
:20:11. > :20:15.spills over into anti-Semitism. What is an, what people perceive to be
:20:16. > :20:21.anti-Semitism is just criticism. There's a lot of unpacking the the
:20:22. > :20:27.British public has to do with regards to what is acceptable and
:20:28. > :20:32.what is not. We were talking about the Tricycle Theatre, when it took
:20:33. > :20:35.the decision to not go ahead because of funding from the Israeli
:20:36. > :20:40.Government. The Tricycle Theatre is saying this is anti-Israeli and not
:20:41. > :20:43.anti-Jewish and offered to help provide funding themselves to cover
:20:44. > :20:48.for the lost that would be experienced. I think the issue with
:20:49. > :20:54.the Tricycle is complex. I don't think it is anti-Semitic and the
:20:55. > :20:59.Tricyclen't wouldn't have hosted the festival for the last eight years if
:21:00. > :21:08.it was. That said, Israel is a core part of the Jewish community's...
:21:09. > :21:12.And the Israeli embassy is more than t promotion of a current Israeli
:21:13. > :21:17.Government I think for not all but the majority of Jews in this country
:21:18. > :21:23.felt affronted that the State of Israel couldn't play a role in a
:21:24. > :21:28.cultural festival. Some people feel that is anti-Semitic. I personally
:21:29. > :21:33.don't but I think it was misguided. Jonathan, is there television in the
:21:34. > :21:40.Jewish community about actions in Gaza? Not really. The
:21:41. > :21:44.Westminstering, the overwhelming majority of the people are proud of
:21:45. > :21:49.its achievements and democracy and concerned about its safety. It is a
:21:50. > :21:52.very tiny country. From Gaza to Tel Aviv is 40 miles. That's the
:21:53. > :21:57.difference from the top of North London to the tip of South London.
:21:58. > :22:02.That's how insecure Israelis feel. Naturally, British Jews empathise
:22:03. > :22:05.with that insecurity. I won't say that every single Jewish person in
:22:06. > :22:09.the United Kingdom or the world thinks exactly the same. Of course
:22:10. > :22:15.they don't. We are a diverse community with a vigorous democracy.
:22:16. > :22:19.So there is dissent but you are saying not much. Would you agree,
:22:20. > :22:24.Hoona? I think there is concern. I agree with Jonathan that the
:22:25. > :22:31.community is deeply concerned with Israel's secure. What I would say is
:22:32. > :22:34.in the space of week we've garnered over a thousand signatures from
:22:35. > :22:40.Rabbis and others saying there needs to be a ceasefire and a return to
:22:41. > :22:45.negotiations and this current round of violence has to end as soon as
:22:46. > :22:49.possible. I think that one of the challenges the community has is that
:22:50. > :22:54.how do you come out and say we've got to back peace? This can no
:22:55. > :22:58.longer be for those who support the Palestinian or Israeli cause about
:22:59. > :23:04.backing a football team. This has to be about us getting behind peace.
:23:05. > :23:09.Mehdi, you wrote an article last year saying that anti-Semitism was
:23:10. > :23:14.routine and commonplace among British Muslims. Do you think the
:23:15. > :23:20.conflict in Gaza has made that worse? I think some sections of the
:23:21. > :23:24.community, it is not a majority viewpoint but it does exist
:23:25. > :23:30.unfortunately, and the Israel Palestinian conflict doesn't help
:23:31. > :23:37.things. That's indisputable. Since July we've seen 2,000 anti-Semitic
:23:38. > :23:42.incidents. That's a problem. Everyone has to get together, no
:23:43. > :23:48.community, not Muslims, not Jews, not anyone, should be targeted for
:23:49. > :23:51.their faith. I yield to no-one in my defence or the promotion of the
:23:52. > :23:56.Palestinian struggle for independence. Having said that,
:23:57. > :24:00.no-one should be blaming, Jonathan makes the point that the British
:24:01. > :24:04.Jews defend Israel. I happen to think that they are incorrect in
:24:05. > :24:09.doing so. That doesn't change the fact that they should be blamed or
:24:10. > :24:15.punished for what Binyamin Netanyahu is doing in Gaza. We have not to
:24:16. > :24:22.conflate British Jews here with Israeli Jews there. One caveat, what
:24:23. > :24:26.we've in pro pro-Palestinian demonstrations, even Mark Gardener
:24:27. > :24:33.has said compared to France, Germany, Holland, where there's been
:24:34. > :24:41.rampant anti-Semitism, there hasn't in a in Britain. There've been a few
:24:42. > :24:49.isolated plaque arksds which is too many, but people are demonstrating
:24:50. > :24:54.not because of anti-Semitism. Would you think that sometimes it does
:24:55. > :24:58.exacerbate the tension between the two communities in this country? Far
:24:59. > :25:03.from it. I would say totally the reverse. The greatest cheer we get
:25:04. > :25:06.from the podium is when you have a Jewish speaker and the crowd gets to
:25:07. > :25:11.understand the difference between Judaism and Zionism. This is one
:25:12. > :25:14.thing that's come out strongly from the podiums and pro-Palestinian
:25:15. > :25:21.organisation in Britain. The ability to educate the British public
:25:22. > :25:30.between about Judaism and Zionism. When people try to insinuate most of
:25:31. > :25:34.the British people in, most of the Jewish people in Britain have an
:25:35. > :25:39.affiliation with the Jewish state. Jonathan was saying most Jews
:25:40. > :25:43.support what Israel is doing. I dispute that. There's a significant
:25:44. > :25:48.number of Jews who walk with us, talk with us and are prepared to
:25:49. > :25:51.share the platform with us. I'm glad to hear Ismail say that
:25:52. > :25:56.anti-Semitism in the Muslim community is unacceptable. Very glad
:25:57. > :26:04.to hear. But he's not right when he says and tries to draw drive a wedge
:26:05. > :26:08.be what what he calls Judaism and Zionism. It is simply the Jewish
:26:09. > :26:14.aspiration to have a homeland for the Jewish people. That's all it is.
:26:15. > :26:19.Let me say straight away most Jews in this country are extremely proud
:26:20. > :26:23.to be Zionist. OK. The positive message that came from what Ismail
:26:24. > :26:27.was saying, and I don't know whether you would agree with this, is that
:26:28. > :26:33.actually you can share the same platform and talk positively about
:26:34. > :26:37.what might be done to find peace. I do agree. One of the Muslim
:26:38. > :26:41.representative organisations, the Muslim Council of Britain, put out a
:26:42. > :26:47.statement just a few days ago to say that, whatever our differences on
:26:48. > :26:52.Israel Palestine, they must never be allowed to degenerate into
:26:53. > :26:56.anti-Semitism and must not been allowed to hurt community relations.
:26:57. > :27:00.Jonathan, can I ask a question? I spend a lot of time talking to
:27:01. > :27:07.student groups. If a young Muslim person was to say, it is the fault
:27:08. > :27:11.of the Jews, and my standard line is don't conflate Jews with Israelis.
:27:12. > :27:15.Do you get, and I understand where you are coming from, the point about
:27:16. > :27:20.the Jewish aspiration for a homeland, but someone at home, if
:27:21. > :27:26.they don't follow the conflict closely, they hear you say, most
:27:27. > :27:34.British Jews defend what Israel are doing, don't drive a wedge between
:27:35. > :27:40.Zionism and Judaism... A really fundamental point. Right now, today,
:27:41. > :27:46.in the name of Islam, atrocities are being committed. Exactly, and I
:27:47. > :27:54.condemn them. If I said that muddied the waters. But it doesn't, because
:27:55. > :27:59.most British Muslims... ALL TALK AT ONCE
:28:00. > :28:05.Hang on, I think that what's missing from this conversation is this is
:28:06. > :28:10.not about driving a wedge between Jews and Zionism. When we throw
:28:11. > :28:14.around the term Zionism, the conversation we should be having is
:28:15. > :28:18.actually people's opinions, positions, whatever you want to call
:28:19. > :28:25.it, on an Israeli Government and their policy. Agreed. There are
:28:26. > :28:29.many, many Jews in this country, all the polling of the Jewish community
:28:30. > :28:33.says this, don't support certain things the Israeli Government does.
:28:34. > :28:37.We don't have polling about this current conflict. It is incredibly
:28:38. > :28:41.important that people see there is diversity of opinion. OK. Sit
:28:42. > :28:46.difficult though, and you talked about diversity of opinion, whether
:28:47. > :28:50.you are a Jew or a Muslim to express that diversity of opinion, when you
:28:51. > :28:54.feel as though you are under attack? Not really. I think people are quite
:28:55. > :28:58.open in expressing their views loudly for everybody to hear, for
:28:59. > :29:01.example the Jewish community. We've got very strong support from the
:29:02. > :29:06.Jewish community who are willing to be with us throughout and try to
:29:07. > :29:11.walk the freedom for the Palestinian people. Are you experiencing the
:29:12. > :29:16.same level of vitriol that Jonathan has heard of in his community, the
:29:17. > :29:20.Muslim community? We have heard of it but I wouldn't say it is because
:29:21. > :29:25.of the Israeli Palestinian issue. There's a shift to right-wing
:29:26. > :29:29.politics. EDL, all these organisation, are trying to bring
:29:30. > :29:33.about racist narratives within the country. I think we should
:29:34. > :29:39.understand there is a shift towards the right. On the Muslim issue, is I
:29:40. > :29:43.would like to debate this subject of Gaza, when we do Gaza I would like
:29:44. > :29:49.to debate it as political issue. It frustrates me when the media and
:29:50. > :29:54.ears make it a Jewish issue. It is not a ridge use issue for me. I
:29:55. > :29:59.would support the Palestinians just as I would support the Tibetans
:30:00. > :30:05.against the Chinese. I support human rights. Witness Warsi tweeted she
:30:06. > :30:15.feels strongly about Muslim issues. As if it is a Muslim issue. It is
:30:16. > :30:19.not a holy war in any sense. The point is whether it is seen as a
:30:20. > :30:22.religious issue or a political issue, a land issue, it goes back to
:30:23. > :30:42.whether in this country... Israelis occupying Palestinian
:30:43. > :30:45.territory. There is an element of alienation. Some Muslims may be
:30:46. > :30:52.scared to talk about it because they may be labelled anti-Semitic. There
:30:53. > :30:57.is a fear in the background that if you come out there will be
:30:58. > :31:06.repercussions. We have to overcome that and hopefully try to bring
:31:07. > :31:11.about a change. We have thousands of supporters inside the community. It
:31:12. > :31:19.is certainly the case that when the whole thing came out in the media
:31:20. > :31:22.about the tricycle Theatre, a lot of people felt alienate it and
:31:23. > :31:27.concerned. These are people standing up within the heart of the community
:31:28. > :31:32.who support a cease-fire. The reality is it does spill over into
:31:33. > :31:38.the Muslim, Jewish landscape. We all have a job to do in standing up and
:31:39. > :31:42.supporting peace. Speaking out against extremism. It is incredibly
:31:43. > :31:46.important these voices are heard. I work with students on university
:31:47. > :31:54.campus and they say to us that they want a moderate pro-Israel voice on
:31:55. > :31:59.campus. On non-Gaza issues, Muslims and Jews worked very closely
:32:00. > :32:08.together. We have a lot of things in common. Allow me to sum up, if I
:32:09. > :32:13.may. When you mention peace and that all communities should work together
:32:14. > :32:20.to find resolution, all of you nodded. That is a good place to end
:32:21. > :32:25.it. Thank you. Let's move on to our special guest
:32:26. > :32:29.this week. She was a code breaker for a naval intelligence during the
:32:30. > :32:33.Second World War. And then a government minister. She served as
:32:34. > :32:37.part of the Royal household. Now Baroness Trumpington at the age of
:32:38. > :32:43.91 is one of the oldest members of the house of lords, where she
:32:44. > :32:49.recently offered a V sign to a fellow peer. Baroness Boothroyd said
:32:50. > :32:53.this week that older members of the upper house should be pensioned off.
:32:54. > :33:03.Baroness Trumpington shows no sign of taking the hint just yet.
:33:04. > :33:10.Baroness Trumpington, lovely to see you. Lovely to see you. Come on in.
:33:11. > :33:17.You have a very positive attitude towards life. Why does that come
:33:18. > :33:23.from? You either have or you haven't. If you haven't, bad luck.
:33:24. > :33:29.Big things do occur. If you suddenly have a fire, that was the most
:33:30. > :33:33.shattering, when my flat caught fire. That was almost the most
:33:34. > :33:37.shattering thing that ever happened to me. One moment I had a home and
:33:38. > :33:47.everything and next I had nothing. Nothing. All I could think of, I
:33:48. > :33:53.spent ?1000 which I have not got, to get knickers in Harrods and a
:33:54. > :34:00.nightdress the next day. I haven't got anything. That is a lot of money
:34:01. > :34:06.on knickers. Harrods is the wrong place to go! You had a very happy
:34:07. > :34:12.marriage with Alan Parker. You were a headmaster's life. What was that
:34:13. > :34:17.like? Absolute bliss. The 17 years I spent there were the happiest years
:34:18. > :34:21.of my life, really. I had such fun. What is rather fun now is that old
:34:22. > :34:26.boys from the school who are now frightfully distinguished gentleman
:34:27. > :34:35.writing me terribly nice letters. -- gentleman. It sounds like you have
:34:36. > :34:39.an unconventional approach to life. When you are living as a
:34:40. > :34:43.headmaster's wife, you smoked and drank and behaved badly on some
:34:44. > :34:49.occasions, and you have carried that into your politics as well. Why do
:34:50. > :34:55.you carry that approach? I think you have made me out to be a drunken
:34:56. > :35:00.old... It is in your book! You also say you are not a very well-behaved
:35:01. > :35:06.Lord. That is probably quite true. I have lived too long in the wide,
:35:07. > :35:15.wide world having to make my own way. I am so lucky to be in the
:35:16. > :35:22.House of Lords with some of the greatest brains in this country. You
:35:23. > :35:31.cannot but profit from listening to wise words. And some less wise ones.
:35:32. > :35:37.Yes, you did rather memorably use a V sign when Lord King was talking
:35:38. > :35:43.about people who had served in World War II looking pretty old. The
:35:44. > :35:52.survivors of World War II started to look pretty old as well, as the
:35:53. > :35:59.noble Baroness reminded me. Was it just a bit of fun? Exactly. And poor
:36:00. > :36:03.Lord King has had to live with it since. Even his relations in
:36:04. > :36:09.Australia wrote and said, how could you be so horrible to that nice
:36:10. > :36:14.lady? I think he is a bit fed up with the whole thing. We are good
:36:15. > :36:20.friends. It sounds like politics for you has been a really exciting time.
:36:21. > :36:24.Your mayor of Cambridge. You were a counsellor before that. To go from
:36:25. > :36:32.being a councillor to being a baroness, that is quite a journey?
:36:33. > :36:35.In a way, finally not. I was terrified when I went to the House
:36:36. > :36:42.of Lords. When I got there and sat down and listened, my God, it was
:36:43. > :36:45.exactly the same as the little old Cambridge Council. Just as many
:36:46. > :36:49.stupid men as there were brilliant ones. And just as many stupid
:36:50. > :36:57.remarks as there were brilliant ones. In a way a much larger
:36:58. > :37:05.setting, it was not all that different. It really was not. News
:37:06. > :37:08.this week about baroness Parsee leaving on a matter of principle
:37:09. > :37:14.because she did not like the Conservative stance on Gaza. Was she
:37:15. > :37:23.right? I think it is very difficult to say. I think when she first came
:37:24. > :37:34.in she was obviously very nervous in that position. Being foreign affairs
:37:35. > :37:42.spokesman. But she grew into the job and she was jolly good. And I am
:37:43. > :37:46.sorry that she has left. But I can understand it must be very difficult
:37:47. > :37:57.for her. Have you ever thought of resigning on the point of principle?
:37:58. > :38:00.Yes. A long time ago. I can remember being frightfully upset about
:38:01. > :38:07.something. I cannot remember what it was! It was a nice cosy little
:38:08. > :38:11.dinner in order to tell me that I had just been promoted. There was I
:38:12. > :38:16.saying that I thought I might resign! But I didn't. Can I ask you
:38:17. > :38:23.what gets you through the difficult bits of life? You lost your lovely
:38:24. > :38:29.husband, who had a stroke and died a couple of years later. Do you look
:38:30. > :38:36.to religion? Do you have a faith? Not really. If you have a little bit
:38:37. > :38:39.of goats, -- if you do not have a little bit of goats, you're not
:38:40. > :38:47.going to get through life. You have two trust yourself to a point. --
:38:48. > :38:54.to. Of course one likes to think that other people, or other things,
:38:55. > :39:00.are going to help you. But you have got to make an effort yourself. If
:39:01. > :39:07.you want to have a clear mind. And a happy life. I don't know whether you
:39:08. > :39:09.heard Betty Boothroyd this week saying that peers should perhaps
:39:10. > :39:13.step down a little bit earlier than they would like to in order to make
:39:14. > :39:21.way for fresh blood. Is that something that would ever appeal to
:39:22. > :39:26.you? I think Betty Boothroyd is perfectly safe that she will not be
:39:27. > :39:34.moved off the Lords list because she is not all that old. I am very old.
:39:35. > :39:49.There are not many like me. I would miss it terribly. It is a bit late
:39:50. > :40:00.in the day to say when I am coming up to 92. You might as well stay!
:40:01. > :40:07.Exactly. I have got my memorial service all planned. I have got two
:40:08. > :40:14.people lined up who are going to speak. I have chosen the hymns. One
:40:15. > :40:26.of them is all things Bright and beautiful, which you may think --
:40:27. > :40:33.think is odd. I love it, actually. It reminds one of one's childhood.
:40:34. > :40:37.You have become a cult figure. I don't know if that is because you
:40:38. > :40:43.are outspoken. Perhaps it was your appearance on have I got News for
:40:44. > :40:47.you. I would like to know why, at the age of 90, I have had to sign a
:40:48. > :40:55.piece of paper to be on this show, to say I was not pregnant. What was
:40:56. > :41:00.that like? I have been known to say the wrong thing at the wrong time.
:41:01. > :41:10.When I was interviewed by one of your colleagues, I said bloody awful
:41:11. > :41:17.on a Sunday. She had an awful time getting it through. Lets see what
:41:18. > :41:21.happens with this programme. Exactly. I feel like saying bloody
:41:22. > :41:26.awful, bloody awful! I think you had better stop. The rather marvellous
:41:27. > :41:32.Baroness Trumpington, who has just written a book about her life.
:41:33. > :41:39.Earlier on in the programme we reflected on the repercussions of
:41:40. > :41:42.the conflict in Gaza. Elsewhere in that troubled part of the board
:41:43. > :41:47.there is another crisis in Iraq. The advance of Islamic state extremists
:41:48. > :41:52.has led to the persecution and widespread flight of thousands of
:41:53. > :41:57.people from the minority Christian faiths. It does led to President
:41:58. > :42:03.Obama launching air strikes against the militants and there have been
:42:04. > :42:08.parachuted drops of aid. -- parachute drops. A short time ago I
:42:09. > :42:15.spoke to a member of the community in Iraq, currently studying for a
:42:16. > :42:19.Ph.D.. You are from the area where the aid is being delivered to the
:42:20. > :42:26.people stranded on the mountains. Have you contacted any members of
:42:27. > :42:30.your family? No. I have lost all my family. I have no contact with them.
:42:31. > :42:37.I have friends from my home town living there in the mountain. They
:42:38. > :42:45.are trapped. Sometimes I get contact with them, to just know what is
:42:46. > :42:48.going on in the mountain. Communication also is not good. What
:42:49. > :42:55.do you know about what is happening in the area generally? You cannot
:42:56. > :42:58.believe what is going on there because all of the people are
:42:59. > :43:11.starving. They are dying from dehydration. The temperature is more
:43:12. > :43:17.than 48 degrees. Just a mountain with no food, no water, no support,
:43:18. > :43:21.no anything. Thousands of children, thousands of women, thousands of
:43:22. > :43:29.older people. What about the villagers? There are three villages.
:43:30. > :43:38.The four yesterday they gave them three days, forcing them to convert
:43:39. > :43:43.to Islam. They gave them three days. Yesterday at 12 o'clock the three
:43:44. > :43:56.days has finished. We don't know what will happen with those 4000
:43:57. > :44:00.people, 4000 families. They are completely run over by Isis. Thank
:44:01. > :44:05.you for your time. We do hope that you hear some better news about your
:44:06. > :44:13.family very soon. Thank you. Joining us from the newsroom is a
:44:14. > :44:22.doctor from the Caledonian church in London.
:44:23. > :44:28.been happening in Iraq? Yes, and first of all when the ISIS came to
:44:29. > :44:34.the city of Mosul they came quietly, didn't do anything wrong for the
:44:35. > :44:40.first couple of days, just to assure everybody. And then they said
:44:41. > :44:46.everybody should convert or pay the tax or they would be beheaded or
:44:47. > :44:51.killed. Forced from the city with no belongings, all their assets and
:44:52. > :44:56.belongings were taken from them. Their cars, money and jewellery.
:44:57. > :45:02.They even chopped a lady's hand because they couldn't take the ring
:45:03. > :45:08.from her finger. These people have walked to the mountains for refuge.
:45:09. > :45:14.The ISIS group started to invade more and more places, so they have
:45:15. > :45:19.to drive these people further up away from the Mosul city, more
:45:20. > :45:25.towards the Turkish borders. Some of them left for Irbil, the Kurdish
:45:26. > :45:30.area. They are lying and sleeping in the streets and parks and gardens,
:45:31. > :45:34.cramped in the church, with no proper sanitary facilities, with no
:45:35. > :45:40.proper food or water. They are living a very dire and very
:45:41. > :45:46.difficult life. Why are Christians being persecuted in this way? Well,
:45:47. > :45:52.I believe that they are the only, how should I say, rightful people
:45:53. > :45:58.who can, their religion is the right one and everybody else is wrong. So
:45:59. > :46:05.you are with them or you are dead, it is that simple. And that applies
:46:06. > :46:12.to other versions of Islam, Shias or moderate Sunnis. ISIS believes
:46:13. > :46:16.everyone should be with them or they die. Thank you for being with us.
:46:17. > :46:21.Thank you. I want to talk to you, Mehdi. We are talking about
:46:22. > :46:26.communities that have lived peacefully together for 2,000 years
:46:27. > :46:33.around Mosul. Why is it falling apart like this? We've had 11 years
:46:34. > :46:40.of conflict since the invasion, all sorts of civil wars and
:46:41. > :46:47.insurgencies. What is happening now is pretty close to genocide, saying
:46:48. > :46:51.convert or I do. ISIS, Islamic State, whatever think want to call
:46:52. > :46:56.themselves, as your guest said, people were talking about it as
:46:57. > :47:04.Sunni versus Shia. This is about a group that hates everyone. It is the
:47:05. > :47:10.very definition of fascism, totalitarianism, whatever you want
:47:11. > :47:19.to use. There is not a single Muslim I know, Sunni or Shia, young or old,
:47:20. > :47:26.religious or sec iar, who thinks these people are anything other than
:47:27. > :47:30.bar Beijing. These are a bunch of fanatics who think they are agenting
:47:31. > :47:34.in God's name. 99.9% of Muslims don't agree with them. Prior to
:47:35. > :47:38.their rival, even under the vicious Saddam Hussein, Iraq was a place
:47:39. > :47:44.where Sunnis and Shias got along in the Middle East even. These Sunni
:47:45. > :47:49.Shia tensions, Muslim and Christian tensions, are a recent phenomenon I
:47:50. > :47:54.would argue. We shouldn't pretend this is about Muslims versus
:47:55. > :48:00.Christians, this is a particular group with a particular ideology
:48:01. > :48:17.which we should all abhor and repel. Mehdi, thank you.
:48:18. > :48:22.The American evangelist Morris Cerullo has been playing to packed
:48:23. > :48:27.audiences in London this week. He has a dynamic preaching style which
:48:28. > :48:33.goes down well with the crowds who come to see him. To others he is a
:48:34. > :48:43.controversial figure because of his belief that prayer can make
:48:44. > :48:51.miracles. I'm asking God, this mission must not be another normal
:48:52. > :48:59.conference experience. This mission must move the Church of Jesus Christ
:49:00. > :49:09.in Europe, in London! London! I want every person who says Brother Morris
:49:10. > :49:15.Cerullo I want God to raise my faith. If you want salvation or
:49:16. > :49:20.healing for your soul, come. If you need healing for your physical body,
:49:21. > :49:25.come. If you are a Pastor and Minister of a church and you need
:49:26. > :49:33.God to do something specific for you, come and sing it while they
:49:34. > :49:39.come. Come on! I am the ecific for you, come and sing it while they
:49:40. > :49:47.come. Come on! I am the Lord. " I am the Lord that healeth ecific for
:49:48. > :49:51.you, come and sing it while they come. Come on! I am the Lord. " I am
:49:52. > :49:55.the Lord that healeth the. " ecific foryou, come and sing it while they
:49:56. > :49:57.come. Come on! I am the Lord. " I am the Lord that healeth the. " " night
:49:58. > :49:59.Morris Cerullo told us he couldn't make because of exhaustion. We are
:50:00. > :50:03.asking whether prayer can cure illness or whether it is a myth. We
:50:04. > :50:08.are joined by Dr Evan Harris, a medical doctor, and a member of the
:50:09. > :50:14.National Secular Society. Anglian priest and director at the
:50:15. > :50:22.evangelical alliance, and Dr Jackie Cameron, who is an or deigned
:50:23. > :50:26.priest. Welcome to you all. I w up Morris Cerullo, what he was saying,
:50:27. > :50:30.his point about you're healing the mind when you go to one of his
:50:31. > :50:34.sessions but you are also healing the body. Do you believe that prayer
:50:35. > :50:40.can make a difference to physical illness? Absolutely. I believe it. I
:50:41. > :50:44.believe not because it is what he is saying but it is what the Bible
:50:45. > :50:48.section what we believe as Christians and what I have
:50:49. > :50:54.experienced. In terms of praying for people... Like what? Can you give us
:50:55. > :50:59.an example of how someone with a serious illness was healed through
:51:00. > :51:07.the power of prayer? Many years ago my own sister was flat out on the
:51:08. > :51:13.floor. She was lifeless. I was a believer as a Christian, but I have
:51:14. > :51:19.faith. I prayed for her and we saw her come to life. It was at the
:51:20. > :51:24.moment when every single member of my family believed in the Christ
:51:25. > :51:32.Jesus. I must explain something to you. There are two elements, there
:51:33. > :51:35.is the element that's evangelistic, like Morris Cerullo, which is
:51:36. > :51:40.healing, that demonstrates the power of God in public places for the
:51:41. > :51:45.unbelievers to believe. And there is the pastoral one. We pray for people
:51:46. > :51:51.in our churches. The question is have I parade for people who've got
:51:52. > :51:56.ill? Absolutely. The power to heal doesn't belong to me, but to God. It
:51:57. > :52:01.is only God that does it. Which is what he says himself. Evan, you are
:52:02. > :52:05.a doctor and member of the National Secular Society. When you hear
:52:06. > :52:11.people of great faith saying they do believe it can cure or affect
:52:12. > :52:15.physical illness, what do you think? It is a fraud. Why is it a fraud? It
:52:16. > :52:19.is a deception. There is no evidence that people are healed. If there
:52:20. > :52:24.was, the whole of medicine would change and the history of gods and
:52:25. > :52:28.miracles, not a single after tee for example, God discriminates against
:52:29. > :52:32.amp tease, clear. He doesn't like those sorts of people. He finds them
:52:33. > :52:40.unacceptable to be healed. He spends a lot of his time doing healing in
:52:41. > :52:44.private and he spends a lot of time healing wealthy, medically insured
:52:45. > :52:49.fundamentalist Christians in California and doesn't do anything
:52:50. > :52:53.about the babies in Africa with malaria. It is a curious God that's
:52:54. > :52:57.so selective. So I believe it is wrong to tell vulnerable and sick
:52:58. > :53:01.people they can be healed by prayer and not by effective medicines, and
:53:02. > :53:04.sometimes to seek donations for doing that. That makes it even
:53:05. > :53:09.worse. I think that's a deception and a fraud. Most religious people
:53:10. > :53:12.would say it was sinful. I can't understand why the Church of England
:53:13. > :53:19.and the Catholic Church don't condemn this like they condemn other
:53:20. > :53:25.forms of avarice, greed and bearing a false witness. Sadly he isn't
:53:26. > :53:30.here. He has his own TV channel. Jackie, what do you make of Evan's
:53:31. > :53:34.point, that it is effectively, broadly, fraudulent to say that you
:53:35. > :53:40.can cure through prayer? LLOW Well ricks Well, as a scientist and a
:53:41. > :53:47.doctor, I do believe that we need data. As a priest and a person of
:53:48. > :53:55.faith I also believe that God is, God acts in the world. What we don't
:53:56. > :53:59.know is how that happens. There's a broad stream of Christianity and
:54:00. > :54:06.there are many different current within it. Some of those people,
:54:07. > :54:10.some believe that God acts very specifically and directly in very
:54:11. > :54:15.small aspects of our lives. Others of us, and I would probably fall
:54:16. > :54:18.into this camp, believe that there are random events, that we live in a
:54:19. > :54:25.world that's growing and evolving and changing. Random events like
:54:26. > :54:29.myrrh cycles? Like for example gene mutations that can result in a birth
:54:30. > :54:34.defect or cancer. I do not believe that God directs that sort of thing.
:54:35. > :54:41.However, what I do believe, healing is a pretty broad topic as well. It
:54:42. > :54:45.is certainly the case that for example spiritual, I work in
:54:46. > :54:50.hospice, we see that butterual pain can result in physical illness. In
:54:51. > :54:54.pain, nausea, shortness of breath. When you breathe with a spiritual
:54:55. > :54:59.issue, sometimes you can realise physical healing. Evan? Yes, it is
:55:00. > :55:05.certainly true that people can have panic attacks and the placebo effect
:55:06. > :55:10.can have physical effects. People can be calmed and there is nothing
:55:11. > :55:15.wrong with and-a-half I think, if you don't mind me say so, it is
:55:16. > :55:20.wishy-washy to say some believe in this or that. Sometime politicians
:55:21. > :55:23.lie to get adherence and so do some newspapers and businesses, but it
:55:24. > :55:29.takes a special kind of bad person to deceive the vulnerable and the
:55:30. > :55:33.sick, especially when preaching against hypocrisy themselves and
:55:34. > :55:36.doing it. I think that mainstream religious organisations who are
:55:37. > :55:42.sometimes seen as cuddly, the Church of England, the Catholic Church,
:55:43. > :55:50.should say it is unacceptable, the charlatanry is un-Ebola. -Ebola. The
:55:51. > :55:54.charlatanry is unacceptable. If you start thinking from research
:55:55. > :55:59.secularism you would be thinking in this way. I am from Africa. We come
:56:00. > :56:05.from place where is even medicine is so remote, is our faith, our belief
:56:06. > :56:11.in Jesus Christ and in what we know that heals so many people Why isn't
:56:12. > :56:18.Morris Cerullo in West Africa laying his hands in the Ebola crisis? Let
:56:19. > :56:22.me finish. I am not talking about intellectual debate but what I've
:56:23. > :56:27.experience, what so many people have experience. That God heals is
:56:28. > :56:31.unquestionable. That God can those with with infirm Titian is not
:56:32. > :56:36.questionable. Many people don't have medical science, all the things that
:56:37. > :56:39.we have here in the West. Their only faith. So this is perhaps a clash of
:56:40. > :56:43.cultures? ALL TALK AT ONCE
:56:44. > :56:48.It is not a clash of cultures. It is a question of faith. You can't claim
:56:49. > :56:54.something is true. The you are entitled to beliefs, but you can't
:56:55. > :57:03.claim that something works by acclamation. I'm an evidence about
:57:04. > :57:06.being sick and I've been prayed for and received healing. I've received
:57:07. > :57:11.people that have been sick that have been prayed for. You are not asking
:57:12. > :57:17.to substitute medicine with prayer am? No. No. Some people do stop
:57:18. > :57:22.taking medicine. I'm afraid we'll have to leave it there, so perhaps
:57:23. > :57:29.you two could talk outside and you give Evan his evidence and perhaps
:57:30. > :57:33.that might change things. Who knows. You've been voting. Should victims
:57:34. > :57:46.have a greater say over punishment? Here is what you told us.
:57:47. > :57:55.A quick reaction to that result from Mehdi. I can't say I'm surprised, if
:57:56. > :57:59.you ask people if you want more power to change things, they are
:58:00. > :58:01.going to say yes. Thank you for being brief.
:58:02. > :58:05.Thank you to all my guests here this morning and to our guests who joined
:58:06. > :58:12.us else. Where thank you for your company. We'll be back next Sunday
:58:13. > :58:19.at 10 o'clock on BBC One. I do hope you will join us. Goodbye.