:00:09. > :00:13.Live. Good morning, I'm Sian Williams with the show that gets to
:00:14. > :00:22.the heart and soul of big stories. Today: Emotional abuse in
:00:23. > :00:28.relationships could be made a crime. Is the law intruding on privacy? It
:00:29. > :00:31.would have made it easier for me and made me realise what I was going
:00:32. > :00:37.through was actually abuse. What will stop young British Muslims
:00:38. > :00:43.joining Islamic extremists. This struggle, not a struggle of one
:00:44. > :00:53.religion against another, it is of all people and religions against a
:00:54. > :00:59.poisonous extremism. We should show resolving in fighting this. Most
:01:00. > :01:01.Christians are not at church today, is traditional worship opt way out?
:01:02. > :01:27.-- on the way Also we are at the Green Belt
:01:28. > :01:35.festival in navrpshire. -- Northamptonshire. Good morning, yes,
:01:36. > :01:45.well I'm at the Gren belt festival. It is like a Christian Glastonbury.
:01:46. > :01:49.Of course, it has got space at heart. There will be a mega-Sunday
:01:50. > :01:55.service later. I will be asking if this is one of the ways of livening
:01:56. > :02:04.up worship and getting the reactions to the big debate in the studio with
:02:05. > :02:11.you. Thank you. First, let's meet some of our guests. Robert Winston
:02:12. > :02:19.is a scientist a doctor, a politician and a presenter. Among
:02:20. > :02:23.his credit is the Story of candidate develop. Dame Ann Lesley is an
:02:24. > :02:28.experienced writer and former foreign correspondent, named as one
:02:29. > :02:37.of most influential journalist of the last 40 years. Polly Neat is
:02:38. > :02:46.from Women's Aid. And we are joined by a journalist and businessman. We
:02:47. > :02:54.would like to hear what our guests think and we want to hear what you
:02:55. > :03:07.think. You can comment through phone text or other social media.
:03:08. > :03:15.If you're in a relationship and suffering physical abuse, you can
:03:16. > :03:26.turn to the law. If you're subjected to psychological
:03:27. > :03:26.turn to the law. If you're subjected considering making emotional harm a
:03:27. > :03:27.crime too. Some say the law should considering making emotional harm a
:03:28. > :03:38.keep out of our prooif lives. Other -- private lives, others say it is
:03:39. > :03:46.needed. This woman was abused by her partner, the comedian Justin Lee
:03:47. > :03:51.Collins. At the start he was very nice, charming. The first few gifts
:03:52. > :03:56.he gave me was a nice mobile phone, a smart phone. I thought that is
:03:57. > :04:03.kind. Then he said, this phone has got a new number. So this is your
:04:04. > :04:08.new number now. Your life with me now is our fresh start. The past,
:04:09. > :04:12.all the people you have known in the past are in the past, you're not to
:04:13. > :04:18.contact anyone you have ever worked with. You're not to contact any of
:04:19. > :04:23.your friends. This is me and you now versus the world. During her time
:04:24. > :04:29.with him, she says she felt her personality was being eroded. There
:04:30. > :04:41.was no part of my life that he didn't have an opinion on, or a
:04:42. > :04:52.criticism on, of, of you know... He had a method of control for every
:04:53. > :04:54.part of my life. Anna left him after her father contacted the police. But
:04:55. > :04:58.she said she found it very difficult. It was so... Brain-washed
:04:59. > :05:01.me. He had reprogrammed me. I didn't know who I was. I was heartbroken.
:05:02. > :05:03.But you can't live your life in fear. It just wrecks everything. She
:05:04. > :05:07.welcomes plans to toughen the law and believes it would make abusers
:05:08. > :05:12.think twice and give victims the strength to come forward. This law
:05:13. > :05:18.would have made it easier for me. It would have made me realise what I
:05:19. > :05:22.was going through. That it was actually abuse F you these laws had
:05:23. > :05:26.been in place, I would have been more confident to go forward. You
:05:27. > :05:29.always think, who is going believe me. With these new laws the police
:05:30. > :05:34.will be able to recognise it and show the Government is supporting
:05:35. > :05:40.and realising that emotional abuse is really damaging. Really very
:05:41. > :05:45.damaging. Also that the abuser will maybe think what I'm doing could get
:05:46. > :05:50.me in massive, massive trouble and also the person being abused, you
:05:51. > :06:01.know... Will have the confidence to come forward. Anna Lark, what do you
:06:02. > :06:11.think, should emotional abuse in a relationship be a crime? Text the
:06:12. > :06:19.word vote followed by yes or no to 81771. You can only vote once. You
:06:20. > :06:31.can go online to vote for free on the web-site. So how often do you
:06:32. > :06:37.hear stories like this? All the time. This kind of extreme
:06:38. > :06:42.controlling behaviour is almost a defining element of domestic
:06:43. > :06:46.violence. More so than actual physical violence. Victims Thame us
:06:47. > :06:51.as well that the effects are much more long lasting and damaging than
:06:52. > :06:57.even the effects of physical violence. It is also dangerous, if
:06:58. > :07:02.you really have and we are talking about extreme controlling behaviour
:07:03. > :07:06.that outside of an intimate relationship would be illegal. How
:07:07. > :07:12.do you define it? It needs to be defined carefully in law, but we are
:07:13. > :07:18.talking about where one partner controls every aspect of another
:07:19. > :07:23.partner's life through fear. The use of extreme fear over a period of
:07:24. > :07:28.time to create control over a partner and what we have, what we
:07:29. > :07:33.know is that situation it is actually can be more dangerous than
:07:34. > :07:37.physical violence. If the partner decides to leave, she may end up
:07:38. > :07:45.seriously injured or dead. The government says the abuse can
:07:46. > :07:51.encompass, but not limited to psychological, physical ex-sexual
:07:52. > :07:56.emotional. Do we need a new law? I'm not exactly a libertarian, but I
:07:57. > :08:01.think slinging endless laws about which don't solve the problem, but
:08:02. > :08:06.do enrich lawyers and I have a beady feeling about. I don't that it will
:08:07. > :08:12.help at all. These women, of course it is awful that they're bullied in
:08:13. > :08:18.this way. But in a sense first you can get divorced as you know. And
:08:19. > :08:24.you can cite all that. Secondly, I think the whole business of proof,
:08:25. > :08:31.you just have to watch the Jeremy Kyle programme, where there are all
:08:32. > :08:39.these women saying he did this that and that and the man says, I didn't.
:08:40. > :08:49.It is so difficult to prove. Pause you have got one side of the story,
:08:50. > :08:55.which is the woman's size, it doesn't mean it is true. It may be
:08:56. > :08:59.true or it may be something internalised in her which may come
:09:00. > :09:03.not just marriage or partnership, but from her background. It is back
:09:04. > :09:08.to the definition, that is might be a difficult thing to prove. Are you
:09:09. > :09:13.in favour Robert? You called me a politician. I'm rather a
:09:14. > :09:17.Parliamentarian. If there a is law I will be speaking on this. I
:09:18. > :09:20.sympathise with Polly. It is a serious problem. Nobody's mentioned
:09:21. > :09:26.men being bullied. But that happens. It can be up to 30%. Yes. But the
:09:27. > :09:30.difficulty is how you make a law which would cover the injury which
:09:31. > :09:40.is caused. It will be impossible to see how you can do that. The problem
:09:41. > :09:44.with bad law is it gets neglected, already physical abuse is a
:09:45. > :09:52.difficult thing to prove now even when the police get called in. So
:09:53. > :09:55.how you're going to relevant late -- regulate verbal or psychological
:09:56. > :10:00.abuse seems difficult. Under existing law there is a crime
:10:01. > :10:07.covering stalking and harassment and that covers controlling behaviour,
:10:08. > :10:20.but does not apply to relationships. No, but it could be used to help
:10:21. > :10:27.people. On the statistics that you were referring, the 30% means 30% of
:10:28. > :10:32.all domestic abuse victims are men and 16% of men will experience
:10:33. > :10:34.domestic abuse. This law is criminalising marital dischord and
:10:35. > :10:37.arguments and every relationship I have been in, either or both of us
:10:38. > :10:42.could have been locked up under this law. It is ridiculous. If one is
:10:43. > :10:48.stronger than the other, how do you defend the weaker person and a
:10:49. > :10:56.psychologically abusive relationship, it is difficult to
:10:57. > :11:03.leave. I think men are getting sick of being demonised as bullies. Men
:11:04. > :11:08.as well are bullied. What is moreover bearing than these shrewish
:11:09. > :11:20.wives who control their husbands. It is like from time imMEP motherial,
:11:21. > :11:24.women have been -- imMEP morial -- women have been demonised for
:11:25. > :11:30.nagging. I once bit my husband on the arm and it swelled up so much, I
:11:31. > :11:35.did you had better go to doctor. The doctor said, well I think, I don't
:11:36. > :11:39.think Ann's got rabies, but I could have been prosecuted under any of
:11:40. > :11:46.these things and so could my husband. Because he does control
:11:47. > :11:50.things. Only if he decided to prosecute. One thing we don't hear
:11:51. > :12:00.about, dozens of women a year are prosecuted for false rain claims. --
:12:01. > :12:04.false rape claims. And one thing that is difficult to introduce is
:12:05. > :12:13.vindictiveness. That is a good point, but I want to talk to Paula,
:12:14. > :12:21.a barrister who has represented many victims of domestic abuse. Would any
:12:22. > :12:25.change make a difference to the women you represent? Listening to
:12:26. > :12:27.your panel, education is the key and the suggestion that this is just
:12:28. > :12:31.about having a row with your partner is absolutely wrong and insulting to
:12:32. > :12:35.a number of victims. Secondly, the suggestion that lawyers are going to
:12:36. > :12:47.become rich off this, I think speaks more about your panel members than
:12:48. > :12:50.it does about the people who are suffering and I'm sure Polly will
:12:51. > :12:54.agree. The reality is people are sufficienting and children are
:12:55. > :12:56.witnessing the -- suffering and children are witnessing the
:12:57. > :12:57.suffering and clarity is the key. We are not talking about a new law, but
:12:58. > :13:04.talking about clarity and I want to get across you can already seek
:13:05. > :13:09.redress from the court if you're suffering from intimidation, what
:13:10. > :13:12.hasment or pestering. -- harassment or pestering. But what people are
:13:13. > :13:16.unclear about is how they have the right to seek that redress and what
:13:17. > :13:22.the Government want to do is expressly state the fact that you
:13:23. > :13:28.can go and seek redress and that cannot be wrong. When we talk about
:13:29. > :13:35.torture, OK when the UN charter talks about torture, it talks about
:13:36. > :13:41.sleep deprivation and isolation and brain-washing. You heard about how
:13:42. > :13:45.that happens. That is a form of torture. Why is it that we think
:13:46. > :13:53.that because you're in a relationship with someone that it is
:13:54. > :13:58.per missable I'm surprised to hear a lawyer speaking like this. That is
:13:59. > :14:01.the way they do. The question is when you invoke the law you have to
:14:02. > :14:05.have evidence and the evidence is very difficult. If you have fizz
:14:06. > :14:12.Dahl a-- physical abuse, you can see sometimes the evidence. With verbal
:14:13. > :14:16.abuse you don't. Look at what the police do with racial
:14:17. > :14:20.discrimination, there are placards saying kill the Jews, how do you
:14:21. > :14:25.prosecute that. How do you prove that you have been emotionally
:14:26. > :14:30.abused? It is not actually that difficult to do. And as in the case
:14:31. > :14:35.of many situations, where you're saying you have suffered harm, it
:14:36. > :14:41.does boil down to one word against the other. That is true. But that is
:14:42. > :14:47.our job and the job of the judge to get to the facts. What you are
:14:48. > :14:51.dealing with remember is a course of behaviour. So if we are talking
:14:52. > :14:54.about somebody who hack locked out of their home with their child for
:14:55. > :15:01.the 15th time in a month or somebody who has had their credit cards cut
:15:02. > :15:05.up, or somebody who can't get to their earnings, because they're put
:15:06. > :15:14.into the bank account of other partner. All these things you could
:15:15. > :15:17.come provide some proof. The cut up credit card. But with somebody
:15:18. > :15:22.whether a man or woman coming back home after a late-night and bullying
:15:23. > :15:35.their partner, that is a much more difficult thing to prove. Without
:15:36. > :15:39.doubt, but that does not mean there should not be steps taken to protect
:15:40. > :15:44.someone. What we are talking about here, for example, very obvious, is
:15:45. > :15:50.threats to kill. People suffer with threats to kill all the time and the
:15:51. > :15:56.police are able to bring charges in relation to those. Paula, thank you.
:15:57. > :16:02.We are going to join Nelufar Hedayat at the Greenbelt festival. Yes, I
:16:03. > :16:08.had two experts here. Natalie Collins, you work closely with the
:16:09. > :16:13.dressing domestic abuse. Do you think the bill will make a
:16:14. > :16:18.difference? I think firstly it is important that we understand what
:16:19. > :16:20.emotional abuse is. People are concerned that acrimonious
:16:21. > :16:26.relationships will end up with one person being in prison. It is about
:16:27. > :16:32.one person degrading another person, humiliating them, devaluing them,
:16:33. > :16:37.isolating them, exploiting them. Currently, those things are not
:16:38. > :16:42.illegal. It is not illegal to control someone's money. Do you hope
:16:43. > :16:47.the bill will enforce those? Yes, I think it is a powerful message to
:16:48. > :16:51.send two is a powerful message to centres this is really serious.
:16:52. > :16:58.Sarah, you work with women in the criminal justice system, will this
:16:59. > :17:02.help the victims crimes? It will help the victims and the profile
:17:03. > :17:07.raising. But we have to stop regarding prison as he answered all
:17:08. > :17:10.of society's ills. There are range of things like better education,
:17:11. > :17:13.emotional literacy and looking at the position of women in society
:17:14. > :17:19.more generally to help address this issue not just incarceration in an
:17:20. > :17:22.emotionally continent environment trying to fix people are
:17:23. > :17:26.emotionally. Do you think the victims would have done things
:17:27. > :17:33.slightly differently? Perhaps. A lot of women I work with have
:17:34. > :17:36.experienced different forms of abuse in childhood and adult hood and it
:17:37. > :17:43.is important that they realise that that is not OK. We will be back
:17:44. > :17:48.later. I want to put the point that was made, we have to stop resorting
:17:49. > :17:53.to the law, the law doesn't manage to solve all of our ills and it does
:17:54. > :18:01.not need to be in our lives as much? I think it is right that the law is
:18:02. > :18:04.only one way of dealing with what is a deep-seated cultural issue. I
:18:05. > :18:09.think the last speaker that you had from Greenbelt was right when she
:18:10. > :18:13.said education is key, cultural change is key as well. I think it is
:18:14. > :18:18.really important we have to do something about the fact that at the
:18:19. > :18:23.moment, putting it really simply, police officers attending the
:18:24. > :18:27.domestic environment incident, they will feel they will take no action
:18:28. > :18:36.unless there is a physical injury. We have had many cases of a police
:18:37. > :18:41.officer arriving, greeted by a very, very distraught woman, often
:18:42. > :18:46.not in control of herself and behind her the very calm perpetrator. And
:18:47. > :18:51.actually, what he then says is, look at this, this is what I have to put
:18:52. > :18:55.up with, this is what I have to deal with and she is taken off down the
:18:56. > :18:59.station. This happens quite often. That is because there is not an
:19:00. > :19:03.understanding of the control and behaviour that lies behind domestic
:19:04. > :19:07.violence and the fact that that woman could be, with good reason,
:19:08. > :19:12.absolutely terrified to do anything. Of course you can get divorced, you
:19:13. > :19:17.can use the system law, but actually, for women who are
:19:18. > :19:22.vulnerable and are being abused over a number of years, and he simply
:19:23. > :19:27.have been deprived of all of their external contacts outside that
:19:28. > :19:30.relationship, and of their own sense of agency, they cannot do those
:19:31. > :19:37.things that you are saying people can do. They simply cannot. OK. We
:19:38. > :19:41.will ask our viewers now. Thank you to our guests who have commented on
:19:42. > :19:45.it. If you want to find out more about the issues we have raised so
:19:46. > :19:50.far, there are details of organisations which can help on our
:19:51. > :19:55.website. The vote is open. The question is, should emotional abuse
:19:56. > :20:00.in a relationship the crime. You can only vote once. If you think it
:20:01. > :20:06.should, vote followed by the word yes and if you think it should not,
:20:07. > :20:13.vote with the word no. You have about 20 minutes before the vote
:20:14. > :20:18.closes. You can vote online as well. Results will be announced before the
:20:19. > :20:22.end of the programme. Still to come on Sunday Morning Live: Does
:20:23. > :20:28.religion in Britain need an American make over? There is a place where
:20:29. > :20:33.you can see the Bible come to life, where is this place? The
:20:34. > :20:40.award-winning holy land experience in Orlando, Florida.
:20:41. > :20:45.More on that shortly. First to the story which has dominated the week,
:20:46. > :20:50.why do some young British Muslims start to hate the country they live
:20:51. > :20:54.in and what will stop them joining fanatics and turning to violence?
:20:55. > :20:58.When the American journalist James Foley was beheaded by Islamic State
:20:59. > :21:02.militants, the video of his death showed a masked man who appeared to
:21:03. > :21:05.have a London accent. While the authorities try to trace him, the
:21:06. > :21:18.government is calling on tougher measures to crack down on anyone who
:21:19. > :21:19.might be peddling so-called hate speech.
:21:20. > :21:22.But how big is that threat and what can be done to try and stop it?
:21:23. > :21:26.James Foley's death shocked the world, not only with its barbarity
:21:27. > :21:31.but also because the killer is thought to be British. The Prime
:21:32. > :21:35.Minister returned from his holiday early. What we must do is take the
:21:36. > :21:40.passports of those contemplating travel, to arrest and prosecute
:21:41. > :21:44.those who take part in extremist violence, to take extremist material
:21:45. > :21:51.of the Internet and do everything we can to keep our people say. There
:21:52. > :21:53.has been clamped down on video footage on social media and the
:21:54. > :21:56.Metropolitan Police have warned that viewing it could be a criminal
:21:57. > :22:01.offence. The home secretary Theresa May is also looking at ways to ban
:22:02. > :22:06.extremist organisations and tackle those who seek to radicalise others.
:22:07. > :22:11.In another recent video released by Islamic State, young British Muslims
:22:12. > :22:14.were shown urging others to fight. The Muslim Council of Britain now
:22:15. > :22:20.wants communities across the UK to stop young men being seduced by such
:22:21. > :22:26.propaganda. It is a subculture which has been developing of this jihadi
:22:27. > :22:30.coup, where they are being lured into committing these criminal acts
:22:31. > :22:33.and feeling that this is something where they will be fulfilling the
:22:34. > :22:38.religious obligations, something they feel is part of the teaching.
:22:39. > :22:43.This is totally alien to the teaching of Islam. After Lee
:22:44. > :22:48.Rigby's murder last year, a task force was set up to look at the
:22:49. > :22:52.strategy of dealing with extremism. Now questions are being asked about
:22:53. > :22:57.whether anything was really done to tackle it. There are calls for more
:22:58. > :23:01.than tougher laws. One of the things we need to start addressing is about
:23:02. > :23:08.having conversations within the UK as well. Why is it that young people
:23:09. > :23:13.feel attracted to the language of Islamic State for example? While the
:23:14. > :23:21.debate continues here, there is a worldwide hunt to identify the man
:23:22. > :23:25.behind the mask, a terrorist, apparently home-grown in Britain.
:23:26. > :23:29.So, how to stop British Muslims joining the fighting in Iraq and
:23:30. > :23:34.Syria. We're joined now by the writer and commentator Douglas
:23:35. > :23:37.Murray who is the associate director of the Henry Jackson Society. Myriam
:23:38. > :23:42.Francois-Cerrah is a journalist and researcher of political movements
:23:43. > :23:53.and Shiraz Maher is a research fellow in the study of
:23:54. > :23:59.radicalisation. How far is this message of fighting for a
:24:00. > :24:04.caliphate, spreading with Muslim youth? I think the message is quite
:24:05. > :24:08.fast spread, particularly amongst the young people. But as a message
:24:09. > :24:13.we have heard for two decades, that there needs to be a caliphate, that
:24:14. > :24:17.it should be very narrow and fundamentalist. Unfortunately, there
:24:18. > :24:21.are young people today who are seeing an opportunity to establish
:24:22. > :24:25.that caliphate in parts of Iraq and Syria who are motivated to try and
:24:26. > :24:32.be part of this. In this context, it is very important to say, if we look
:24:33. > :24:35.at people who went out to Syria 18 months ago, when we spoke to them,
:24:36. > :24:38.we wanted to try and understand their motivation for doing so. Their
:24:39. > :24:42.primary motivation they said was to help the people, they were worried
:24:43. > :24:46.about women and children. When we talk to them now, either the same
:24:47. > :24:50.people or people who are going out recently, that narrative has been
:24:51. > :24:53.lost. They say we are here to establish an Islamic State, we do
:24:54. > :24:59.not care what the local people say, the land does not belong to them, it
:25:00. > :25:06.belongs to God. We are seeing a more hardline callous attitude. Why has
:25:07. > :25:09.that changed? Part of it is to do with the people going out there.
:25:10. > :25:13.There is always a certain type of person, the Ed Dunlop logic will
:25:14. > :25:19.component aside, there is always a certain type of person who relishes
:25:20. > :25:29.sadism and brutal violence. But this message seems to be getting hold. In
:25:30. > :25:35.the 1990s there was a lot of talk among extreme fringe groups in the
:25:36. > :25:38.UK, it seemed like an impossible achievement. They'll win said they
:25:39. > :25:45.wanted to make a worldwide Islamic State but the announcement that the
:25:46. > :25:49.Islamic State has been put together, has made what we all
:25:50. > :25:55.thought was a complete fantasy into a reality which they can join. I
:25:56. > :26:00.want to read you something that Lord Carey said. He said for too long the
:26:01. > :26:03.doctrine of multiculturalism has led to immigrants establishing
:26:04. > :26:07.completely separate communities in our cities. He said he believes that
:26:08. > :26:19.as the situation that mainstream Muslims find up the problem is, when
:26:20. > :26:25.we talk about Islam, which Islam? There are so many versions of Islam
:26:26. > :26:30.and indeed, originally, as Miriam will no because she is a researcher,
:26:31. > :26:36.originally there was the Koran, it was not suddenly delivered by the
:26:37. > :26:44.angel Gabriel, it evolved over the years. And in fact, the first great
:26:45. > :26:47.schism in Islam, which was between Sunni and Shia occurred shortly
:26:48. > :26:53.after the Prophet's death. Now this is because they all had different
:26:54. > :26:59.versions of Islam. So this lot, ISIS or whatever they are calling
:27:00. > :27:04.themselves now, IS, they regard all Shias as infidels and therefore they
:27:05. > :27:08.must be killed. They do not even consider that they may be Muslims
:27:09. > :27:16.because they regard them as infidels. And why is that message
:27:17. > :27:19.being picked up? First of all, one of the reasons ISIS has had such a
:27:20. > :27:24.success quote unquote in Syria and Iraq, is because they have done it
:27:25. > :27:28.very fast. They have not waited for words or anything like that. This
:27:29. > :27:34.means two young chaps who have been wrought up by strict and decent
:27:35. > :27:41.families here, they feel people are always talking, they are not doing,
:27:42. > :27:48.and of course, the reason that the Islamic empire spreads so fast
:27:49. > :27:51.finally after Mohammed's death, was because they believed it was a
:27:52. > :27:56.message from God that they were doing right. And this is what these
:27:57. > :28:00.young boys, because they are very retarded... They are following this
:28:01. > :28:05.message because now they can see there is an Islamic State which is
:28:06. > :28:11.gaining hold, do you think that is the reason for some time into the
:28:12. > :28:15.message? I think IS first of all, I do not think we should do the favour
:28:16. > :28:19.of calling them an Islamic State, that plays into the image. They call
:28:20. > :28:27.themselves the Islamic State but they do not have one yet. I will
:28:28. > :28:30.refer to them as IS. It is quite clear when you look at the profile
:28:31. > :28:35.of many of the young men who had out there, there is what one report
:28:36. > :28:44.refers to, religious novices. If you look at the first books that were
:28:45. > :28:50.ordered by the men who were recently convicted, it is Islam for Dummies
:28:51. > :28:55.and the Koran for Dummies. The Syrian conflict cannot be
:28:56. > :28:59.underestimated in terms of the motivation. There are a lot of
:29:00. > :29:02.people who feel extremely frustrated by the Syrian conflict and the
:29:03. > :29:06.hundreds of thousands of people who have been killed there and the
:29:07. > :29:11.impotence that many people feel. If you combine that with the situation
:29:12. > :29:14.in which a number of young people in this country feel disenfranchised,
:29:15. > :29:18.marginalised. Let's look at the profile of some of these young men.
:29:19. > :29:23.They are coming from Portsmouth, Cardiff, Aberdeen. They are not
:29:24. > :29:27.investment bankers from Chelsea, let's face it. These are guys who
:29:28. > :29:33.are unemployed. USN poverty is drawing them to this message?
:29:34. > :29:37.Poverty and alienation provides the structural factor which draws them
:29:38. > :29:44.to radical messages. I agree with you on most things, not everything,
:29:45. > :29:48.but it is to do with Islam in a sense because Islam was founded by
:29:49. > :29:56.the sword, let's face it, it really was. It is not to do with Islam. I
:29:57. > :30:00.am saying it is attracted people who want to do something. Let's have a
:30:01. > :30:04.bit of clarity. This is not a British problem and it is not an
:30:05. > :30:09.Islamic problem either. The fact is, if you look at the history of
:30:10. > :30:14.terrorism, it occurs particularly amongst young people, the Red Army
:30:15. > :30:20.faction, things which have happened in Cambodia, China, Kashmir again
:30:21. > :30:25.and again and in Africa at the moment, young boy soldiers. One of
:30:26. > :30:29.the issues is this is the recruitment of youth at a time when
:30:30. > :30:34.they are probably most disaffected, most easy to recruit and so Miriam
:30:35. > :30:46.has a really good point here. It is a question of how you alter that in
:30:47. > :30:55.your society. I want to bring in a young Muslim man who does support
:30:56. > :31:02.the caliphate created and he joins us from London. Why do you support
:31:03. > :31:07.IS. Its not a question of my supporting the caliphate. But
:31:08. > :31:11.Muslims cherish the Koran and for over 90 years we have been living
:31:12. > :31:16.without a caliphate and many of the rules of the Koran can't be
:31:17. > :31:22.implemented. Now you will see many Muslims seeing it as an opportunity
:31:23. > :31:31.for the Koran to be fully realised and for justice to prevail. You do
:31:32. > :31:39.that by murdering journalists? There are a lot of lies being pushed out
:31:40. > :31:44.by the BBC. You believe it is a lie that Christians and Yazidis have
:31:45. > :31:51.been murdered by Islamic state fighters? It has been exaggerated. I
:31:52. > :31:57.would say it is the policy of the Islamic state to protect non-Muslim
:31:58. > :32:01.citizens. But they're doing it. Yes we are seeing a conflict and people
:32:02. > :32:06.die, we are in the middle of a global war. We are seeing people who
:32:07. > :32:12.are fighting the Islamic state whether Shia, Sunni or Christian or
:32:13. > :32:18.whatever. But I think it is very absurd to say that on one hand it is
:32:19. > :32:23.not allowed for people to defend themselves against brutal air
:32:24. > :32:30.strikes from America. Why are we not saying British soldiers are being
:32:31. > :32:35.radicalised to kill Muslims. Were you born here and grew up here? Yes.
:32:36. > :32:41.With people of all denominations. Why do you hate them so much? As a
:32:42. > :32:46.Muslim, I would like to see Britain governed by the Shah Ree that, not
:32:47. > :32:52.because I want to oppress non-Muslims, but it is superior to
:32:53. > :32:57.democracy. We don't have sharia law, do you still consider yourself
:32:58. > :33:01.British? I call myself Muslim and I don't identify with British values,
:33:02. > :33:07.I'm a Muslim first, second and last and I hope one day and I invite all
:33:08. > :33:13.non-Muslims to embrace Islam and don't believe the lies being pushed
:33:14. > :33:19.out about the caliphate. Many are not true. We are getting conflicting
:33:20. > :33:29.reports. I'm going to bring Shiraz in. How do you respond to that? How
:33:30. > :33:31.many people does he speak for? He represents a tiny minority. The
:33:32. > :33:36.difference between him and the fighter we see, they're not content
:33:37. > :33:40.with sitting around in TV studios espousing the opinions, they have
:33:41. > :33:51.got up and gone and even women have got up and gone. He has had a long
:33:52. > :33:55.history of kind of radical act vift and -- activism. The people who are
:33:56. > :34:04.more dangerous are the people who associate with people like him. And
:34:05. > :34:10.younger. Yes. There is so much distrust in their blood and in
:34:11. > :34:16.traditional Islamic family, moderate nice people, they don't get an
:34:17. > :34:23.outetc. They're not supposed to have sex before marriage. It is difficult
:34:24. > :34:29.to get to a divinely touched Muslim woman who is still a virgin. The
:34:30. > :34:35.promise of 72 virgins does not exist in the Koran. But we want some
:34:36. > :34:40.understanding of why some British young Muslims listening to the IS
:34:41. > :34:47.voice and want to go and fight and what can be done to stop it. Of
:34:48. > :34:52.course this is a young man issue. Every person in the US and UK who
:34:53. > :34:55.has been convicted of terrorism-related offences, the
:34:56. > :34:58.majority are young men. Of course we are dealing with young men. You
:34:59. > :35:05.can't ignore that for them whether you like it or not, for them an
:35:06. > :35:10.interpretation of Islam is the reason they're doing it. For us this
:35:11. > :35:15.the most appalling interpretation of Islam. But it is an interpretation.
:35:16. > :35:19.That is why although it is more convenient for us to pretend this
:35:20. > :35:25.has nothing to do with Islam, we have to accept it does for Muslim
:35:26. > :35:32.and others to fight against this interpretation like people in Isis
:35:33. > :35:39.and your loony guest. No one is denying there is a misinterpretation
:35:40. > :35:46.by a fringe group is being spread. No one is denying that. They are. I
:35:47. > :35:54.think broadly there is an acceptance that an interpretation of Islam is
:35:55. > :35:58.being used. But the issue is whether that cultural explanation is the
:35:59. > :36:02.predominant explanation and what we are looking at is what are the
:36:03. > :36:08.factors which encourage young men to get involved in any sort of crime or
:36:09. > :36:14.criminality, be it gangs or Jihadism. Those factors tend to be
:36:15. > :36:20.linked to alienation and poverty. Every young person at some point
:36:21. > :36:23.feels alienation and most people feel left out at some point. Most
:36:24. > :36:28.young people at some point. But the question is what are you going to
:36:29. > :36:34.do. The problem we have is that there is a large number of people
:36:35. > :36:38.who want to play into that perceived set of grievances. Western foreign
:36:39. > :36:43.policy, we hear all the time and your loony guest just did it, that
:36:44. > :36:47.the fact that British forces have been engaged in the Middle East is a
:36:48. > :36:52.reason for this. In the nineties we didn't get involved in the Balkan,
:36:53. > :36:58.and then we did. I have never heard one Muslim leader say how grateful
:36:59. > :37:04.we are to NATO for saving Muslim lives. We have had a debate about
:37:05. > :37:09.intervention. When we intervene and when we don't. This is not about
:37:10. > :37:14.intervention and what the roots were, but what we do now to get out
:37:15. > :37:19.of where we are and what is the best thing to do. Lord Carey said if he
:37:20. > :37:28.hears those sorts of extremist views, he said take away their
:37:29. > :37:33.passports. It won't help. He is an excellent man, but that won't make a
:37:34. > :37:37.difference. I have a huge RMT for your -- respect for your
:37:38. > :37:41.organisation, but it is worrying if we classify it as a problem with
:37:42. > :37:48.Islam. Because I think that what we are seeing in Britain so much is
:37:49. > :37:53.real difference between religious groups, Jews and Muslims are closer
:37:54. > :37:59.than they have been for a long time in Britain. The risk to community
:38:00. > :38:05.harmony is serious. That is why we have to deal with some of the other
:38:06. > :38:09.problems in society. Which must be educate and poverty. We all want to
:38:10. > :38:13.deal with that. We will talk about the Government's plans to do things
:38:14. > :38:21.within law and strengthen the law here in a second. I want to go back
:38:22. > :38:26.to Abu Rumaysah and whether you have thought about handing in your
:38:27. > :38:31.passport. I gave an interview and I did offer to renounce citizenship.
:38:32. > :38:40.If a lot of Muslims were offered that you would see a huge migration
:38:41. > :38:47.to the caliphate. Address him directly. Sorry, well, no you
:38:48. > :38:54.wouldn't see a mass exodus. You might see... Hang on Let Myriam make
:38:55. > :38:59.her point. Am not sure this skre man would leave. Would you leave? Of
:39:00. > :39:05.course. If I had safe passage to the caliphate I would be the first on
:39:06. > :39:17.the plane. Why don't you? We will do a whip round. And arresting Muslims
:39:18. > :39:22.and preventing them going. Hang on. There is one point about whether
:39:23. > :39:27.taking citizenship does help. The key is we don't assist them by
:39:28. > :39:31.pretending its not our problem and taking aware their citizenship, are
:39:32. > :39:35.we saying it is not our problem. We need to recognise there are
:39:36. > :39:43.disaffected members of British society who need to be reinserted
:39:44. > :39:50.into society. That and poor white boys. The point is what you do now
:39:51. > :39:54.to try to stop it. What we have seen with IS, which we didn't see in the
:39:55. > :39:59.past with Al-Qaeda, is an effective use of social media, so the message
:40:00. > :40:09.is spreading. I want to bring in Ross Frenett from the institute --
:40:10. > :40:13.institute for dialogue. He is in Glasgow. How effective is that slick
:40:14. > :40:25.propaganda message that IS are putting forward? : It It be be very
:40:26. > :40:29.receptive and it is not just IS putting out propaganda, there a lot
:40:30. > :40:37.of individuals online who are acting as xheer leader -- cheerleaders and
:40:38. > :40:41.creating content which is stirring -- Steering people to these actions.
:40:42. > :40:46.We heard David Cameron talk about the issues here. We heard him talk
:40:47. > :40:50.about taking extremist material off the internet. We haven't heard
:40:51. > :40:54.enough about putting more positive material on there and creating
:40:55. > :40:59.counter narratives to undermine the religious justification and to point
:41:00. > :41:05.out the reality of what the Islamic state are doing and to point out the
:41:06. > :41:09.reality of what life would be like for these young men over there.
:41:10. > :41:14.You're getting some nods of agreement. It comes to point about
:41:15. > :41:19.interventionism and foreign policy. There is a well spring of lies which
:41:20. > :41:30.are in the media about what this country do and a
:41:31. > :41:31.are in the media about what this background to seize on that and feel
:41:32. > :41:36.some kind of added resentment. So we have to make sure that the
:41:37. > :41:44.narratives of what this country actually does are better got out. Is
:41:45. > :41:50.it also about Muslims in communities having alouder -- having a louder
:41:51. > :41:58.voice. We have seen that. If you look back over the ten years there
:41:59. > :42:03.has been an emergence of grass roots organisations. The issue is and
:42:04. > :42:08.Douglas touched on it, the way the arguments went before, it was around
:42:09. > :42:13.the idea of foreign policy and there could be a foreign policy solution.
:42:14. > :42:19.The Syrian conflict makes it clear there is not a solution on that. The
:42:20. > :42:23.war in Iraq inflamed a lot of people and we were told that foreign policy
:42:24. > :42:30.can provoke people into terrorism. But now we have what you could call
:42:31. > :42:35.the radicalisation by omission, we are being told because we didn't
:42:36. > :42:39.intervene in Syria, people are being radicalised. Now Muslim groups are
:42:40. > :42:45.try to having the debate. -- trying to have the debate. But now fit is
:42:46. > :42:51.an internal debate, Sunni, Shias and that is a very difficult debate for
:42:52. > :42:58.the government. Now we are going to go to Green belt Festival and Nel
:42:59. > :43:05.has some guests there. What are they saying. We are going to talk about
:43:06. > :43:11.them with a professor of sociology of religion. Is this a preventible
:43:12. > :43:16.issue? It is about young people and religion and the Government has been
:43:17. > :43:21.trying to, and there have been many solutions. But I think a key point
:43:22. > :43:24.that is missed is a systematic solution and if you're talking about
:43:25. > :43:28.young people and religion that has to involve schools. What has
:43:29. > :43:34.happened to RE in schools is a disaster and it is not taken
:43:35. > :43:40.seriously. If you equip people with true understanding of what Islam is
:43:41. > :43:46.you can prevent a lot of misinformation that lies behind some
:43:47. > :43:52.of is. We are joined by Abdul, you're a journalist and work with
:43:53. > :43:58.the radical middled way. Are we failing to get to grips with this? I
:43:59. > :44:05.have been engaged in this since the early nineties when it wasn't
:44:06. > :44:10.popular. I would say communities have done a lot. There is a lot of
:44:11. > :44:14.resilience in the communities. The path about strengthen civil society
:44:15. > :44:20.and the men and women and young people who do incredible work in our
:44:21. > :44:24.communities and give to Britain, as British citizens, who engage every
:44:25. > :44:30.day and to strengthen them and their voice and strengthen their capacity
:44:31. > :44:33.to do good and to work with our friends and those who are in our
:44:34. > :44:39.communities to do the positive stuff. That is resilience. Thank
:44:40. > :44:45.you. Food for thought there. Thank you. The guests talking about
:44:46. > :44:49.strengthening the voice of the positive. And it is about getting
:44:50. > :44:57.that more positive message through and trying to quieten the negative
:44:58. > :45:00.stuff. What we tend to do is the thing, because it is so
:45:01. > :45:04.uncomfortable we don't want to have the discussion. Our societies are
:45:05. > :45:08.not good at discussing religion and here is a religion we are not used
:45:09. > :45:16.to and we would rather not discuss it. There are some uncomfortable
:45:17. > :45:19.things which Muslims have to have that discussion about. We don't help
:45:20. > :45:23.that process if we say it has nothing to do with the Koran and
:45:24. > :45:28.Mohammed and nothing to do with Islam. It does a bit. And or a major
:45:29. > :45:31.bit in some people's beliefs and it is very important not to ignore
:45:32. > :45:36.that. Only by dealing with that can you take on the extremists,
:45:37. > :45:41.otherwise a young man like your lunatic guest is likely to have been
:45:42. > :45:46.told by people there is nothing in the Koran to justify this he finds a
:45:47. > :45:50.verse that shows behead the unbeliever and he thinks the other
:45:51. > :46:03.people are lying. We have to take on things to stop that happening. So we
:46:04. > :46:07.have to hear the voices and challenge them? In the case of
:46:08. > :46:13.engaging communities, that has to be a balance that is taken between
:46:14. > :46:19.specifically balancing, this is where I would agree with Douglas,
:46:20. > :46:24.there is too much onus on the community. There is no single person
:46:25. > :46:28.who can tell everyone else how they should or shouldn't behave. But at
:46:29. > :46:34.the same time, as the guest we saw from the radical Middle Way pointed
:46:35. > :46:40.out, communities have to be part of the solution. To do that, they have
:46:41. > :46:44.to have trust in the has to be greater cooperation with the police
:46:45. > :46:49.and secret services. That is where the efforts need to be focused.
:46:50. > :46:53.Thank you very much all of you for that discussion. Just to bring you
:46:54. > :46:58.back to our vote this morning, the question was, should a motion abuse
:46:59. > :47:09.in a relationship be a crime. The vote will close now so do not text
:47:10. > :47:14.because your vote will not count but you could still be charged.
:47:15. > :47:17.More than 33 million people in Britain call themselves Christian.
:47:18. > :47:22.Only around 2 million are church this morning. The numbers have been
:47:23. > :47:27.declining since the 1950s and as fewer young people go, it is seen as
:47:28. > :47:33.the preserve of the older and middle-class worshipper. So does
:47:34. > :47:38.prayer and praise need a make over? Traditional worship is still the
:47:39. > :47:42.core of church services in Britain. But the Greenbelt festival
:47:43. > :47:49.celebrating its 40th year has a different approach. Greenbelt is
:47:50. > :47:53.being staged in the grounds of a stately home in Northamptonshire and
:47:54. > :48:01.it describes itself as a condition of arts, faith and justice, with
:48:02. > :48:04.Christianity the thread that binds it altogether. The Pope is
:48:05. > :48:07.modernising his approach as well by text in encouragement to people.
:48:08. > :48:13.These Franciscan Friars in New York have gone a stage further, by
:48:14. > :48:18.accepting prayer requests by text. Interestingly enough, when we
:48:19. > :48:23.started talking about the idea, people said isn't it cold? If I
:48:24. > :48:27.asked you face-to-face it would be one thing but these are people who
:48:28. > :48:32.may not be able to reach anyone who can pray for them so I think it has
:48:33. > :48:43.opened up a holdall for people. There is a place full of wonder and
:48:44. > :48:48.excitement and joy. How about this for a different take on the Bible?
:48:49. > :48:53.It is the Holy Land experience in Florida. A bit over the top or an
:48:54. > :49:00.ingenious way of drawing people back to religion?
:49:01. > :49:09.So, would prayer by text and a Christian theme park work here? Amy
:49:10. > :49:12.Powers has joined us. She is a Church of England curate. Milo is
:49:13. > :49:17.back and Robert is still here -- Amy Powers. Would that work? We should
:49:18. > :49:21.reach out to people where they are but I do not think an American theme
:49:22. > :49:26.park would work for us but let's give it a go. We have been talking
:49:27. > :49:29.about Islam and the growth of Islam but in terms of Christianity, the
:49:30. > :49:35.numbers of people who call themselves Christian is falling and
:49:36. > :49:38.the people who do not have faith is rising. Why is that? There are so
:49:39. > :49:42.many reasons why as a church we are struggling to reach out to people
:49:43. > :49:46.who need to hear us and need to hear our message. I think the gospel
:49:47. > :49:51.message is the same as it has always been that we are struggling to reach
:49:52. > :49:56.people. It is fascinating to see the growth of Fresh Expressions, so new
:49:57. > :50:03.ways of church. That is your organisation. It is a new way that
:50:04. > :50:08.we can reach out to people, anyway being communities. There are
:50:09. > :50:15.churches in pubs, in cafes, there are people who worship just with a
:50:16. > :50:20.specific community. I can feel Milo getting frustrated sitting next to
:50:21. > :50:24.me! Wires that? There is a reason why the Church of England is in
:50:25. > :50:30.decline and that is because they have lost any authenticity about
:50:31. > :50:34.faith. The awful guitar and ukelele stuff. The thing about being young
:50:35. > :50:41.and being interested in religion, you have a finely tuned BS radar.
:50:42. > :50:45.You can tell what is real. Having the 60s or 70 Road Marxist bishops
:50:46. > :50:52.reflecting religion with guitars is terrible. -- 60 or 70-year-old. If
:50:53. > :50:58.you think about the extraordinary experience you get going to Mass at
:50:59. > :51:03.the Brompton oratory on a Sunday, comparing the Bach cantata to the
:51:04. > :51:11.awful folk dirges you get. So it demeans religion? I think it does.
:51:12. > :51:14.It is an important spiritual dimensional the faith. It is a real
:51:15. > :51:18.shame when it becomes watered down with this terrible music that young
:51:19. > :51:24.people do not even like. Young people seem to like it at Greenbelt
:51:25. > :51:29.so we will go to Nel who has some guests with her. Hello, yes. Things
:51:30. > :51:34.are a bit quieter because the service has started but I am joined
:51:35. > :51:39.by a reverend Kate Botley. Should religion be more fun and should
:51:40. > :51:55.praying be more fun? 1-person's fun is another person's boring. I am
:51:56. > :51:58.wary when people say they want the service to be more fun because
:51:59. > :52:01.they're fun might not be what my fun looks like. I think church needs to
:52:02. > :52:04.be more honest and we need to think about more authenticity. Your church
:52:05. > :52:08.is more fun, isn't it? But never as a result of trying to be fun. When
:52:09. > :52:13.churches try you get abominations like clown ministry. It is awkward.
:52:14. > :52:17.When you meet someone who says I like to have fun generally they will
:52:18. > :52:23.be awkward and miserable. How will you attract people who are
:52:24. > :52:29.interested? Half of my parish are young adults but it was not a cos I
:52:30. > :52:33.was trying to attract young people. I am just me as a pastor. I am the
:52:34. > :52:40.same person so they have that trust. There is nothing worse than
:52:41. > :52:46.forced funny churches. It is like dad dancing. It is clumsy and
:52:47. > :52:52.awkward. What helps is making people feel welcome and part of the
:52:53. > :52:55.community. It could be traditional hymns or a happy crabby chorus. We
:52:56. > :53:04.have a couple of young people here who have been at the festival. Who
:53:05. > :53:09.have we got? My name is Nicky. What have you been getting up to? Can
:53:10. > :53:14.church be fun? We have been seeing bands and singers and going to
:53:15. > :53:19.different worship. Church can definitely be fun. How do you think
:53:20. > :53:23.it can be fun? I think it can be fun because you get to meet lots of new
:53:24. > :53:28.friends at places like this. Do you think churches should try harder to
:53:29. > :53:36.be more fun? I think you should involve more fun into church. There
:53:37. > :53:38.is definitely a more quiet pensive atmosphere at the moment but the
:53:39. > :53:43.bands and music will be kicking off later. That is all from the
:53:44. > :53:48.Greenbelt. Back to you, Sian. Thank you, lots of uses of the word
:53:49. > :53:58.fun. Does it matter if you are in church or out of church? I am not a
:53:59. > :54:00.Christian, I am a Jew. Judaism is probably not diminishing in
:54:01. > :54:05.attendance much. We have had the -- in fact, the Orthodox community is
:54:06. > :54:10.increasing, not just in this country but more widely as well. There is a
:54:11. > :54:19.wonderful book published in the 70s or late 60s called Believing not
:54:20. > :54:22.Belonging. She argues that we have a spiritual dimensional to our society
:54:23. > :54:26.but we do not belong to an established church in the way that
:54:27. > :54:31.we did. She argues rather nicely that the established church now is
:54:32. > :54:34.the football stadium where people come to have their own religious
:54:35. > :54:40.prejudices about which team they support and so on. That is a
:54:41. > :54:44.fanciful idea but it is quite interesting how both archbishops and
:54:45. > :54:49.chief rabbis have been on football pitch is to embrace the crowd. And
:54:50. > :54:53.to connect with them as well. So in other words, it does not renew
:54:54. > :55:01.matter, churches are just buildings so if you worship somewhere else in
:55:02. > :55:06.a different way... What this argument taps into is the human need
:55:07. > :55:10.for ritual. And the need for standardisation. I think that finds
:55:11. > :55:14.its fullest and most dutiful expression in the extraordinary form
:55:15. > :55:18.of the Catholic Mass. Those sort of rituals which connect with people
:55:19. > :55:24.really spiritually. I'm just unconvinced that young people, that
:55:25. > :55:32.sufficient numbers of young people are excited by this terrible music.
:55:33. > :55:35.It is not just the music? Proper research shows that religious
:55:36. > :55:41.education does not change attitudes as you grow up, but what does change
:55:42. > :55:45.and help is the family background. That is very, very clear. If the
:55:46. > :55:49.family is practising then the children are more likely to be
:55:50. > :55:52.practising later on. The fact is that family life has changed
:55:53. > :55:57.massively throughout the Western world and I think that is one of the
:55:58. > :56:01.reasons. What is important is we continue to find and grab hold of
:56:02. > :56:06.the values. For example, the Anglican Church has been hugely
:56:07. > :56:10.important instrument in the development and formation of our
:56:11. > :56:14.society. In the House of Lords I really value the bishops and I think
:56:15. > :56:18.it is important that they stay, while we may want to reform the
:56:19. > :56:23.Lords in some way, that angle is not just a religious angle, it is a
:56:24. > :56:29.moral angle. It is important in our society, that spirituality is
:56:30. > :56:32.something we need to nurture and preserved. I think Robert is right.
:56:33. > :56:37.When we watch programmes like down to nab the and those shows with the
:56:38. > :56:41.society which has changed dramatically apart from the church
:56:42. > :56:47.-- programmes like Downton Abbey. I have been with the youth camp where
:56:48. > :56:52.we have had a lot of guitars, sorry about that, Milo, but we have
:56:53. > :56:56.learned loads that Jesus and faith and those kids were engaging with
:56:57. > :57:02.it. It was meeting them where they were rather than sitting in the
:57:03. > :57:06.Brompton oratory. Thank you all of you. This will continue outside. We
:57:07. > :57:14.have been talking about it or morning! Our text and online vote
:57:15. > :57:24.today, this was the question, should a motion abuse in a relationship be
:57:25. > :57:27.a crime? Here is what you told us. 87% said yes, it should be a crime.
:57:28. > :57:32.13% said no, it should not. Those are very high figures. 87% say it
:57:33. > :57:39.should be a crime. It depends on who is watching the programme. That is
:57:40. > :57:44.true, it is just a snapshot. I do not argue that it is a crime, the
:57:45. > :57:51.problem is how you enforce it and how you make the law. That is a
:57:52. > :57:55.difficult issue. Amy? Yes, we need to look out for people who are being
:57:56. > :58:01.abused in any situation. And you agree with that? Of course that this
:58:02. > :58:06.law is over the line into areas the government should not step into
:58:07. > :58:11.which is relationships where there is not serious evidence of something
:58:12. > :58:16.really going wrong thank you, or, thank you to you at home and the
:58:17. > :58:23.guests who joined us in the studio. And also thank you to Nel at the
:58:24. > :58:29.Greenbelt festival. We will be back next Sunday. Until then, goodbye.