:00:08. > :00:09.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Morning Live.
:00:10. > :00:14.The World Health Organisation points to evidence that
:00:15. > :00:17.Are you healthier, more virtuous and more moral
:00:18. > :00:28.As the House of Lords blocks progress on welfare
:00:29. > :00:31.cuts, angry ministers say that's not the job of unelected peers.
:00:32. > :00:35.Is it finally time to amend or abolish it?
:00:36. > :00:38.The Dark Destroyer, Nigel Benn, one of the biggest names in boxing
:00:39. > :00:41.history, goes a few rounds with Hardeep Singh Kohli and reignites
:00:42. > :00:56.He's just out there. He's a very eccentric black man, or tries to be
:00:57. > :00:59.but, really and truly, I know him and he knows I know him.
:01:00. > :01:05.If you want to be buried, you might have to think again -
:01:06. > :01:08.We're running out of graveyard slots.
:01:09. > :01:19.It means in some cases disturbing remains, placing them deeper in and
:01:20. > :01:20.replacing them. Is it time to dig up the past
:01:21. > :01:23.and start recycling graves? And forget Hallowe'en - this is how
:01:24. > :01:26.Mexicans celebrate tomorrow's Day of the Dead, when they remember
:01:27. > :01:42.the lives of their loved ones. The Mariachis will perform
:01:43. > :02:08.for us later. It will bring a smile to your face,
:02:09. > :02:11.I promise! Tommy Sandhu is here to share
:02:12. > :02:23.your thoughts If you are still an Halloween hide
:02:24. > :02:33.from all the candy you can seemed yesterday, come and join us. You can
:02:34. > :02:39.find us on social media. You can use our hashtag. Or you can call us in
:02:40. > :02:43.the old style fashion, number Bob. Standard geographic charges from
:02:44. > :02:54.landlines and mobiles will apply. You can text us at 81771. E-mail us
:02:55. > :02:57.at sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk, and you can also send us your video
:02:58. > :03:01.reactions. Just record yourself on your tablet or your phone and e-mail
:03:02. > :03:04.it to that address and get involved in the debate.
:03:05. > :03:09.Pauline McLynn is an actor, writer and animal rights activist.
:03:10. > :03:11.Bill Oddie is a television presenter and conservationist.
:03:12. > :03:12.Christina Patterson is a journalist and broadcaster.
:03:13. > :03:17.Ajmal Masroor is an author and Imam in West London.
:03:18. > :03:33.Thanks for being with us. Not at all. I was going to send an e-mail.
:03:34. > :03:39.We are getting to the stage where there is more "get in touch with us"
:03:40. > :03:44.the mayor is of the programme! It is nice to have you back, Bill. We
:03:45. > :03:48.haven't even started the programme and he's already!
:03:49. > :03:50.Barely a day goes by without another report telling us
:03:51. > :03:53.which foods give us cancer - and this week it was red meat.
:03:54. > :03:55.The World Health Organisation says it's "probably carcinogenic" -
:03:56. > :03:57.and considers processed meat is even worse,
:03:58. > :04:00.putting it in the same category as alcohol, nicotine and even plutonium
:04:01. > :04:05.So is this a good time to look at our diets?
:04:06. > :04:08.And if we do, should we also think about whether ethics
:04:09. > :04:14.Is it better for the animal, the environment
:04:15. > :04:17.and our health to bin it, or would that mean the death knell
:04:18. > :04:28.Are you not only healthier but more virtuous if you stop eating
:04:29. > :04:39.sausages, salami and Shepherd's pie? Joining us now from Bristol is
:04:40. > :04:42.Juliet Gellately - animal rights activist, and the founder of vegan
:04:43. > :04:44.organization VIVA! And also, from our studio in Dundee, is Dr Carrie
:04:45. > :04:50.Ruxton - dietician, health writer and member of the British Meat
:04:51. > :04:55.Advisory Council, an industry body. Welcome to the programme, both of
:04:56. > :05:00.you. Bill, as you're so anxious to get going this morning, is this
:05:01. > :05:06.report more likely to make you change your diet? Me personally? Of
:05:07. > :05:11.course not. This is what I call, if I may say so, Daily Mail headlines.
:05:12. > :05:15.You go through any copy of the Daily Mail and you find every page has
:05:16. > :05:21.something on it that says, this make cause cancer, or playing football
:05:22. > :05:31.could cause cancer, or eating wallabies make your cancer or cause
:05:32. > :05:36.it or whatever. -- may cure cancer. It is the world health organisation
:05:37. > :05:39.which has looked at 800 different studies and suggests there might be
:05:40. > :05:45.a relationship. You just said it yourself - might be. This sort of
:05:46. > :05:49.scaremongering stuff... I'm not saying it's not true to a point but
:05:50. > :05:55.I might amended a bit more generally and say, being alive causes cancer.
:05:56. > :05:58.The biggest risk. I think that's a bit of escapism in my view. We need
:05:59. > :06:02.to be very careful about what we eat. What we eat is what we are and
:06:03. > :06:06.if we consume an excessive amount of meat, I believe it causes damage.
:06:07. > :06:11.Our body hasn't been made to consume meat, especially processed meat.
:06:12. > :06:14.Once you understand that an animal has died in order for you to live,
:06:15. > :06:19.it creates a different relationship with that animal. If you are eating
:06:20. > :06:24.it, you must eat it at a very nominal level and the reverential
:06:25. > :06:29.about it. As a Muslim, do you eat much processed meat? I try to avoid
:06:30. > :06:33.it as much as possible. We don't eat pork, for example, and is now there
:06:34. > :06:37.is -- in Islam there is something called halal meat, which means
:06:38. > :06:41.wholesome and permissible. We are only allowed to eat animals which
:06:42. > :06:45.have been killed in an ethical way. If we don't, it affects us
:06:46. > :06:51.physically and spiritually and we are very meticulous about what they
:06:52. > :06:56.eat and the culture they have. We recently had be to celebration which
:06:57. > :07:01.has sacrificed as part of it. One of the animals I had to kill in order
:07:02. > :07:04.to be able to eat it and I'd told my children, after I had felt the
:07:05. > :07:09.warmth of the animal and seen the animal die, I felt remorse in my
:07:10. > :07:13.heart. So when Aida meat now, ie do very little because I need the
:07:14. > :07:26.protein but I don't waste, I don't just Roy. It isn't for consumerist
:07:27. > :07:31.ideals. It has to be... We are missing that field to fork process.
:07:32. > :07:36.Christina, how does this affect you? I feel like you are speaking like
:07:37. > :07:43.Henry VIII in terms of terrier carcass in front of you. I don't eat
:07:44. > :07:48.very much meat, to be honest, and I enjoy meat and I did not like the
:07:49. > :07:53.idea of my meats being ruined by this. I believe them but I wish they
:07:54. > :08:00.were wrong. So many things are unhealthy. I think that human beings
:08:01. > :08:03.have always been omnivores. They didn't eat a vast amounts of meat.
:08:04. > :08:07.This idea that they were chasing mallards and then it in a entire
:08:08. > :08:15.carcass in the afternoon is not right. -- mammoths. I think we were
:08:16. > :08:20.designed, if you believe we were designed, but whatever, we exist. We
:08:21. > :08:29.should have a lot of plant protein, a bit of meat, about 3%, if you want
:08:30. > :08:33.to. Fine not to. Only about 3% of the population chooses to be
:08:34. > :08:38.vegetarian. It it, enjoy it, try to make sure the animals don't have
:08:39. > :08:41.miserable lives but it isn't up to the middle classes to say that it
:08:42. > :08:44.all has to be organic and beautiful because that means a very large
:08:45. > :08:49.percentage of the world's population will not be able to afford it. I
:08:50. > :08:52.will come to you and a second, Pauline, but I want to bring up one
:08:53. > :08:56.of your points with Dr Carrie Ruxton who is joining us from Dundee, and
:08:57. > :08:59.that is the question of whether we eat too much meat in the first
:09:00. > :09:03.place. The advice is that eating more than 50 grams of processed
:09:04. > :09:11.meat, two rushes of bacon, there might be a relationship with certain
:09:12. > :09:16.bowel cancers. You sit on the board which is on the meter advisory
:09:17. > :09:22.council, funded by the meat industry. What is your response? I
:09:23. > :09:26.sit on the meat advisory panel. We currently eat an average 17 grams of
:09:27. > :09:32.processed meat a day, which is below the 50 grams that the WHO
:09:33. > :09:38.highlighted as potentially harmful. Overall, the WHO said that 200 grams
:09:39. > :09:44.a day of total meat consumption could potentially be harmful and our
:09:45. > :09:49.average intakes are 71, with very few people eating high amounts.
:09:50. > :09:55.About one in 50 women and one in ten men eat more than 140 grams a day. I
:09:56. > :10:00.would say at the moment, people don't eat too much meat in this
:10:01. > :10:04.country. I just want to touch on risk because the WHO said that the
:10:05. > :10:08.risk was 18% increased risk with high intakes of processed meat. That
:10:09. > :10:14.equates to an extra case of basically six out of 100 getting
:10:15. > :10:20.cancer in a lifetime, as opposed to seven in 100. The risk goes up one
:10:21. > :10:23.case per 100 if we all ate more than 50 grams of processed meat so I
:10:24. > :10:30.think that really puts the risk in context. Thank you. Pauline, you
:10:31. > :10:37.were getting quite worked up. Yes, all in moderation. You know, I think
:10:38. > :10:44.things like calling it a middle-class problem is not
:10:45. > :10:49.helpful. If you are, as I have become, a vegetarian, and it was for
:10:50. > :10:56.moral reasons... I didn't say vegetarianism was middle-class. No,
:10:57. > :11:01.but we have figures about less than 50 grams... Yet, but probably most
:11:02. > :11:08.people sit down and have a big feed of meat on that day. It is well
:11:09. > :11:15.over. Moderation in everything, certainly. For me, I stopped eating
:11:16. > :11:21.meat on a moral level. I could not kill my own creatures and eat them.
:11:22. > :11:27.If I were to ever taste the cruelty that is even in the organic farming
:11:28. > :11:32.industry, the cruelty and the panic that that animal feels when it dies
:11:33. > :11:39.and stop cruelty and panic. Let carry response to that. You are now
:11:40. > :11:42.probably going to go to a vegan and then we are into, you have got to
:11:43. > :11:48.cut it all out. We need to think of the consequences of everything. It
:11:49. > :11:51.isn't just that we kill 35 billion farm animals and waste most of them
:11:52. > :11:59.every year, it's the consequences for the planet. The point in your
:12:00. > :12:04.conversation is the waste. It isn't the waste, it is also the cruelty
:12:05. > :12:07.involved. The cruelty involved in intensive farming and also in an
:12:08. > :12:12.organic way, when you know the animal has a happy life, can it have
:12:13. > :12:16.a happy death? I don't think so. I recognise that you kill your own and
:12:17. > :12:20.feel their lives going from them and you have respect in that way but,
:12:21. > :12:26.you know, I can't believe that any death can be kind and cruelty free.
:12:27. > :12:32.Carrie, how do you respond to that, that no death can be kind and
:12:33. > :12:40.cruelty free? Carrie, can you still hear us? Sorry. I think that we are
:12:41. > :12:44.omnivores. The dental records, our guts. We have been eating meat for
:12:45. > :12:48.hundreds of thousands of years and what we have to do is make sure that
:12:49. > :12:54.animal welfare standards are high and the UK has the best record in
:12:55. > :12:59.Europe for animal welfare. We brought in the directive on pig
:13:00. > :13:03.welfare six years before we had to and 97% of the population eat meat.
:13:04. > :13:07.They want to know that it is well cared for, that the slaughter is
:13:08. > :13:13.fair and humane and we can guarantee that that is the case in the UK. We
:13:14. > :13:15.are meeting all the requirements. I want to bring in our guest Juliet
:13:16. > :13:22.Gellately who has been waiting patiently. You are from a vegan
:13:23. > :13:27.group. I want to raise an economic point as much as anything. English
:13:28. > :13:32.meat alone brings in a net value of ?1.67 billion to the British
:13:33. > :13:37.economy. If we stop eating meat, there will be profound effects on
:13:38. > :13:40.farming. Do you act knowledge that? Also remember the drug industry,
:13:41. > :13:45.about half its profits come from giving drugs to that refund animals
:13:46. > :13:49.so you have two industries globally who make an awful lot of money out
:13:50. > :13:53.of the death of the animals and causing very nasty diseases. It
:13:54. > :13:58.isn't just cancers. We know that meat and dairy products cause heart
:13:59. > :14:05.disease, Alzheimer's, obesity, chronic diseases which are crippling
:14:06. > :14:10.the NHS of the UK. Just qualify that because it is actually about the
:14:11. > :14:14.amount you consume, isn't it? Just saying "dairy gives you terrible
:14:15. > :14:20.diseases", you got to be quite careful and qualify that sort of
:14:21. > :14:27.statement. The scientists, group Viva quote from science that milk
:14:28. > :14:30.contains hormone and growth factors because the hormones directly linked
:14:31. > :14:34.to things like breast cancer, prostate cancer in men and other
:14:35. > :14:39.cancers. We know that for absolutely sure. The science is all there. But
:14:40. > :14:44.going back to a guaranteed to be cruelty free or welfare friendly,
:14:45. > :14:48.that is a nonsense. Just last weekend, Viva exposed in a national
:14:49. > :14:56.newspaper a farm that had a glittering battery cages, stacked in
:14:57. > :14:59.cages where they can barely move. This was a farm that is supplying
:15:00. > :15:03.Morrisons and is red tractor approved. One of the reasons the
:15:04. > :15:07.British public is moving away from meat is because we just don't trust
:15:08. > :15:11.these assurances any more. They are being blown apart time after time.
:15:12. > :15:14.Factory farming has not changed. In many ways it has got worse for top
:15:15. > :15:16.what is changing is the British public, who are rejecting meat any
:15:17. > :15:27.more. We've been doing the whole programme
:15:28. > :15:33.with someone saying, is meat a moral issue and we haven't touchen on
:15:34. > :15:38.that. Only a tiny bit. I'm a meat eater as it happens and I'm a
:15:39. > :15:42.Vice-President of Compassion in World Farmings. I dare say we've got
:15:43. > :15:49.at least two more members here now. I'm not a vegan, not a vegetarian,
:15:50. > :15:55.anything like that. Meat is a part of the diet. This is a moral issue,
:15:56. > :15:59.it is the welfare of the animals. Many of the conditions, I was
:16:00. > :16:04.surprised to hear the lady saying that Britain can boast to be one of
:16:05. > :16:08.the best in Europe. We are not the best in Europe in anything I don't
:16:09. > :16:13.think, indeed the world. We've got terrible scandals come up all the
:16:14. > :16:16.time. Go on their website, Compassion in World Farming doesn't
:16:17. > :16:22.include just the world but where you live. Find out how horrendous the
:16:23. > :16:28.conditions are. A lot of the ritualing, I won't go any further
:16:29. > :16:34.than that, is equally horrendous. The moral issue here is the meet
:16:35. > :16:39.consumption. Why? That's not moral. Every piece we waste, that's a moral
:16:40. > :16:43.issue. The amount of cruelty animals suffer in cages in the
:16:44. > :16:49.industrialised farming we see. Those are the moral issue. The bigger
:16:50. > :16:51.issue is how we've made it part of the consumerist society in which
:16:52. > :16:55.everything must be fast and quickly available. You know the fast food
:16:56. > :17:00.industry, all of those are the moral issues. If I was addressing it, I
:17:01. > :17:05.would go back to what Pauline said. It is about moderation, about our
:17:06. > :17:11.attitude towards what we do to the animals and how we eat them. But the
:17:12. > :17:14.bigger one is how our children have never had an encounter with an
:17:15. > :17:20.animal dying, never seen where the meat is coming from. There's no
:17:21. > :17:27.relationship. We need to revive it so that when children eat chicken
:17:28. > :17:33.burgers they know it has come from a live chicken, or beef from a live
:17:34. > :17:39.animal, so they don't waste it. And they'll go for the organic healthy
:17:40. > :17:43.one. In all our food we need to have a more real relationship with where
:17:44. > :17:47.it comes from. Whether it is bread or anything. It is essentially made
:17:48. > :17:52.of plastic and chemicals. That applies to meat as well. So we must
:17:53. > :17:55.look at overconsumption... Hang on a minute Pauline. So many people have
:17:56. > :17:58.been getting in touch with us. I would like to hear from you at home
:17:59. > :18:45.as well. Tommy? And this video is from Gareth.
:18:46. > :18:51.Morning, I'm a hill farmer from North Wales. I produce lamb and
:18:52. > :18:55.beef. I'm very disappointed listening to all the scaremongering
:18:56. > :18:59.about the eating of red meat. There's nothing healthier in a
:19:00. > :19:06.balanced diet, like everybody should know. It's just so disappointing
:19:07. > :19:10.when things are pretty tough on us as an industry you hear these people
:19:11. > :19:15.who want to put these stories out and destroy the fantastic way of
:19:16. > :19:20.life and of producing something that's very healthy and very
:19:21. > :19:25.natural. Gareth making the point that it is scaremonger. How would
:19:26. > :19:29.you respond to that, Pauline? You know, I think farming is a wonderful
:19:30. > :19:34.way of life and it looks to me like that man loves what he does, and his
:19:35. > :19:39.animals. I think we just must look at moderation. I'm not going to sit
:19:40. > :19:46.here and tell somebody who wants to feed somebody on a low income who
:19:47. > :19:51.wants to feed their family cheap chicken, that that's wrong. It is if
:19:52. > :19:55.we go back to where the cheap chicken came from, that's where the
:19:56. > :20:01.problem is. And always follow the money, because it is worth billions
:20:02. > :20:06.this, industry. Why not educate from the industry itself forward? Why not
:20:07. > :20:12.make less food better, even if it is meat, and make the lives and the
:20:13. > :20:19.slaughter of the animals better. And therefore have a much better quality
:20:20. > :20:23.of meat available to people who also know that they can eat this, that it
:20:24. > :20:29.is good for their family, good for them, in moderation, and let's have
:20:30. > :20:35.the rest of our diet as it should be, plant-based and so on. I agree.
:20:36. > :20:39.It is simple and logical. We are eating far too much anyway, we
:20:40. > :20:48.should eat less. Always look at the industry. People want to do, you
:20:49. > :20:53.know... More is not better. Less is, in fact, in this area. Thank you so
:20:54. > :20:56.much and thank you to Carrie and Juliet. I wish we had more time on
:20:57. > :21:01.this, but there are many other discussions to be had. Thank you for
:21:02. > :21:05.joining us and for your comment at home as well.
:21:06. > :21:08.The Former World Boxing Champion Nigel Benn
:21:09. > :21:20.about how a confession during bible studies changed his life.
:21:21. > :21:30.I told my teacher, I think I've been having an affair. She said, have you
:21:31. > :21:34.told your wife? I said no. I went home and confessed everything for
:21:35. > :21:40.the first time in my life. I was being honest.
:21:41. > :21:47.That interview is coming up shortly. Shortly. But
:21:48. > :21:49.Angry MPs were calling for the abolition of the House
:21:50. > :21:52.of Lords more than a century ago - and they're still at it.
:21:53. > :21:55.This time, they're angry that the unelected second chamber - or the
:21:56. > :21:58."other place", as they call it - threw out the Government's planned
:21:59. > :22:02.The Prime Minister says there needs to be a review of the power
:22:03. > :22:07.It was one of the first stories I covered as a journalist more than 30
:22:08. > :22:10.years ago and various ministers have recently had a go in 2003, 2007,
:22:11. > :22:14.Is now the time to do something radical about it -
:22:15. > :22:17.or is it an integral and workable part of Parliamentary democracy?
:22:18. > :22:21.But first, we sent Tommy to Westminster to hear
:22:22. > :22:34.Who are they? The Queen. The Queen? Yeah. Someone in the magistrates
:22:35. > :22:37.courts? Members of the Houses of Parliament. I was going to say
:22:38. > :22:41.something to do with the Royal Family. What if I told you it is
:22:42. > :22:46.something to do with the building behind you. Probably the Parliament,
:22:47. > :22:52.right? Do you know? The House of Lords. Yes, they are the House of
:22:53. > :22:56.Lords. What do these people in the red robes do? Speak about the law.
:22:57. > :22:59.Politics and stuff. Scrutinise Government policy and legislation.
:23:00. > :23:03.They hold the Government to account. That's right. Anything could go on
:23:04. > :23:09.in there, will I have no idea. Who knows what goes on? Exactly. Is this
:23:10. > :23:13.important, is it good to have these guys questioning what MPs are doing?
:23:14. > :23:18.They need to question what MPs are doing. I don't believe MPs do a good
:23:19. > :23:22.job. From an historical point of view it is quite nice, but maybe we
:23:23. > :23:26.don't really need them. I think they do a lot for our democracy. I know
:23:27. > :23:31.they are not elected. It seems like you can turn up if you like. If you
:23:32. > :23:35.do turn up the you get 300 quid for doing so. You never hear much about
:23:36. > :23:39.them that's positive. They are brilliant actually. They've taken up
:23:40. > :23:43.issues on my behalf, challenged the Commons and tried to put amendments
:23:44. > :23:48.into bills. They've got expertise and this week we've seen how
:23:49. > :23:51.important they are. How? Because they stopped the Government's
:23:52. > :23:54.terrible cuts to tax credits. They've made the Government think
:23:55. > :24:00.again, which is what they are there to do. So having this mates as Lords
:24:01. > :24:05.is not on? Not really. Just because you are born into the upper levels
:24:06. > :24:07.doesn't mean to say you should get to sit in the House of Lords and
:24:08. > :24:11.decide the direction of the country. Should we abolish the House
:24:12. > :24:13.of Lords? You can e-mail, text, call or use
:24:14. > :24:16.social media to get in touch. Joining the panel is cross-bench
:24:17. > :24:19.peer of the House of Lords Baroness Molly Meacher, whose amendment to
:24:20. > :24:22.this week's Tax Credits Bill And we are also joined
:24:23. > :24:33.by the hereditary Conservative peer the Lord Rodney Elton,
:24:34. > :24:41.who has been a member of the House Welcome to you, Sir. Baroness
:24:42. > :24:46.Meacher, if I can start with you, 300 years of convention holds that
:24:47. > :24:50.the Lords tend not to scupper financial laws, so why did you do
:24:51. > :24:54.this? The fact is we are perfectly able to do it. It is perfectly
:24:55. > :24:59.constitutional. I checked this out with the clerk of the Parliaments,
:25:00. > :25:03.who is our guru on House of Lords procedures. He said procedurally
:25:04. > :25:06.this is perfectly in order, so it is not a constitutional matter, not a
:25:07. > :25:12.constitutional crisis if you like. It was a crisis somewhat created by
:25:13. > :25:16.Downing Street. But the reason we did it was because these measures
:25:17. > :25:20.were in regulations on a welfare reform bill, which is something we
:25:21. > :25:25.regularly look at. It is normal House of Lords practice, and we were
:25:26. > :25:29.horrified at the impact of these tax credits on very vulnerable, very
:25:30. > :25:33.low-income working families, disabled working families or people
:25:34. > :25:39.with disabled children, the impacts were absolutely horrifying for a lot
:25:40. > :25:43.of people. So we felt we had to step in, perfectly constitutionally, to
:25:44. > :25:48.act. Perfectly constitutional Lord Elton? According to as much as the
:25:49. > :25:55.constitution as is written down, which amounts in this case to a
:25:56. > :26:03.report written in some 10 or 15 years ago. It is not a
:26:04. > :26:10.constitutional outrage. According to the convention which has reigned in
:26:11. > :26:15.the House for centuries, it is. And the reason that I, against my heart,
:26:16. > :26:22.voted with my Government was that I think there was a greater issue at
:26:23. > :26:26.stake, because the House of Lords, was that Parliament was I vented to
:26:27. > :26:33.protect the people from the Crown and the Crown was not admitted into
:26:34. > :26:37.Parliament until George I, couldn't speak English well enough to do the
:26:38. > :26:43.speech from the throne, and he sent in his first Prime Minister, who
:26:44. > :26:49.took his place. But the extent to which Parliament protected the
:26:50. > :26:53.people from their Government, which was the Crown, they were kept
:26:54. > :26:58.completely at arm's length. And now we have over 100 of them. The result
:26:59. > :27:03.of that and other developments which I won't detain you with, unless you
:27:04. > :27:10.want me to do so, the Government can from time to time get control of the
:27:11. > :27:16.House of Commons. As they did in 2005 with the Terrorism Bill, and
:27:17. > :27:22.she slipped in a clause which would have enabled one Minister talking to
:27:23. > :27:28.one senior policeman to write on a piece of paper that for instance odd
:27:29. > :27:31.odd odd was a terrorist shot, could for instance odd odd odd was a
:27:32. > :27:35.terrorist shot, could be a -- that Bill Oddie was a terrorist threat
:27:36. > :27:45.and could be locked up for a long time. Can I'd that we sat from
:27:46. > :27:50.2.30pm on a Thursday afternoon until Friday night to stop that happening.
:27:51. > :27:54.Bill Oddie, do you think the House of Lords needs reform, or do you
:27:55. > :28:00.think they have done their job? First of all, as the ladies who was
:28:01. > :28:05.interviewed outside the Commons and Lords said, the fact that they made
:28:06. > :28:08.this decision in this instance, I think most of us went, well good on
:28:09. > :28:15.you. Apart from Conservatives of course. Of course, yes. We assumed
:28:16. > :28:19.they don't like it. But Bill... People voted for a Conservative
:28:20. > :28:22.Government, you say most of us. I'm not Conservative, but you can't say,
:28:23. > :28:26.most of us. ALL TALK AT ONCE
:28:27. > :28:30.Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the welfare reform Bill,
:28:31. > :28:35.we are looking at what this means for a form, for reform of the House
:28:36. > :28:39.of Lords. I think most people apart from people in the House of Lords or
:28:40. > :28:43.House of Commons haven't a clue what the House of Lords do, who they are,
:28:44. > :28:49.why those people are there, have they got any reason to be there?
:28:50. > :28:54.Where any of them elected? Do any of them have expertise, I'm sure they
:28:55. > :28:59.do, but we haven't a clue. We can only got from what we occasionally
:29:00. > :29:04.see when they interfered in this case and you think, good on them.
:29:05. > :29:09.Government are never very happy if you don't agree with them. Insults
:29:10. > :29:13.will be thrown in your direction that you are not elected, not like
:29:14. > :29:20.our wonderful intelligent Ministers that we have. Owen Paterson, in
:29:21. > :29:26.charge of the environment last year, and he dismissed me and my ilk
:29:27. > :29:28.saying we were an unelected green blob of busy bodies. We were
:29:29. > :29:42.unelected. We don't count and that is their
:29:43. > :29:51.attitude. But he was elected. Owen Paterson was elected. He is not here
:29:52. > :29:55.to defend himself. As Churchill said, democracy is the worst kind of
:29:56. > :29:59.system apart from every other system that has been tried or stop it is a
:30:00. > :30:06.mess but at least it represents... It is our mess. I'm one of those
:30:07. > :30:14.people who thought that the tax credit cuts were a terrible mistake
:30:15. > :30:21.and on one level, I was delighted out what you did this week. On the
:30:22. > :30:23.other hand, do I think that people are unelected, particularly her
:30:24. > :30:30.registry peers, should overrule decisions made by politicians? Know
:30:31. > :30:35.I don't. -- have read to reap years. I can't think of anything worse than
:30:36. > :30:39.being told, you reform the House of Lords tomorrow. It would be a
:30:40. > :30:42.nightmare. Everyone who has tried to do it has messed it up and what the
:30:43. > :30:47.alternative is, it is very difficult. I do think that in
:30:48. > :30:51.principle, a second house is a good idea to oversee and hold some checks
:30:52. > :30:56.on the legislation of the first house. The trouble is, what kind of
:30:57. > :30:59.second house do you go for? You could have a mix of half appointment
:31:00. > :31:03.and half a different system of election but then you could end up
:31:04. > :31:06.with another kind of career politician who became special
:31:07. > :31:11.advisers or whatever. It is very tricky. Molly, what would you do
:31:12. > :31:14.about representation? The House of Lords is not representative of
:31:15. > :31:18.society. You may say that is absolutely fine, that more than half
:31:19. > :31:23.of peers are over 70 and most of them come from very similar
:31:24. > :31:27.backgrounds. What would you do to change it? In my view, the first
:31:28. > :31:32.thing we've got to do is have a much, much smaller house. All peers
:31:33. > :31:37.would agree with that. Secondly, we ought to have the political people
:31:38. > :31:42.elected. Why have political people who are not elected? It could be on
:31:43. > :31:47.a list basis or a regional basis, elected to represent Scotland,
:31:48. > :31:53.Wales, Northern Ireland or whatever. There are things that in my view are
:31:54. > :31:58.very important but the crossbenchers are priceless, excluding myself. We
:31:59. > :32:02.have the top judges, the top medics, the top generals, the top people who
:32:03. > :32:08.really understand subjects. They shouldn't be lost. I've been in the
:32:09. > :32:12.House of Lords and it is so incredibly detailed. It is actually
:32:13. > :32:18.fantastically boring! Hats off to you for having to sit through it
:32:19. > :32:24.all. But it doesn't really... It is a mishmash. And we do do with the
:32:25. > :32:26.detailed work of regulations and laws that the House of Commons
:32:27. > :32:32.haven't got time to do. Would you reform it at all? I just want to
:32:33. > :32:35.pick up the points - we do not have the last word on anything, except
:32:36. > :32:40.the extension of the life of Parliament beyond its mandate.
:32:41. > :32:44.Because it goes back to the Commons? It goes back to the Commons and they
:32:45. > :32:48.can always chop us off with a parliament that. We are there to see
:32:49. > :32:50.that what the politicians do is what they mean to do and what their
:32:51. > :32:56.elected people want. We are there to serve the public. But we also have
:32:57. > :32:59.the craziness of people who give money to parliamentary parties...
:33:00. > :33:04.They buy their seats and that is just shocking. Let's hear what you
:33:05. > :33:07.are saying at home. A lot of people are saying, what is
:33:08. > :33:12.the point of having a general election if an unelected body can
:33:13. > :33:32.interfere with government? John says...
:33:33. > :33:47.Thank you. There was a lot of here, here then! I was just practising for
:33:48. > :33:51.when I become a Lord! I believe we should get rid of the word Lord.
:33:52. > :33:58.Much better is Senator. Do you like Baroness? No. It just sets people
:33:59. > :34:02.apart. I met another baroness who had only been there every year and
:34:03. > :34:07.she said it needed to be reformed. Because it increases the separation
:34:08. > :34:11.between you and the people? Yes. We do actually always just leave things
:34:12. > :34:14.back to the House of Commons but we do require governments to think
:34:15. > :34:18.again and very often, they take our view because that view is based on
:34:19. > :34:22.professional judgment and this is what we have that often the House of
:34:23. > :34:28.Commons don't have and we have time that they don't have. Will anything
:34:29. > :34:31.really changed? The number of changes we make runs into the
:34:32. > :34:35.thousands in a session. We really do change legislation to make it do
:34:36. > :34:40.what the other place wants it to do because they got it wrong. Many
:34:41. > :34:42.thanks, all of you, for that discussion and thanks for all of
:34:43. > :34:47.your reactions at home. Former World champion Nigel Benn was
:34:48. > :34:50.one of Britain's most successful boxers after memorable fights with
:34:51. > :34:53.the likes of Chris Eubank, Michael Watson and Steve Collins, but also a
:34:54. > :34:57.particularly brutal encounter with Gerald McLellan, which left
:34:58. > :35:00.his opponent blind and paralysed. The battles continued outside
:35:01. > :35:04.the ring for the troubled boxer, He has now found his salvation
:35:05. > :35:09.in faith. Hardeep Singh Kohli met him
:35:10. > :35:31.and began by asking him The paper first of all named the
:35:32. > :35:34.three Mean Machine, but Burt Reynolds had got that. Then they
:35:35. > :35:40.called me Rambo. And then in the paper, the Dark Destroyer. I
:35:41. > :35:45.thought, I'm dark and I love destroying people, yeah! I don't
:35:46. > :35:48.know who named me it but Dark Destroyer was a great name. I just
:35:49. > :35:54.took it. I didn't even think about colour or anything. I'm bigger than
:35:55. > :35:58.that. To say you were a phenomenon understates your impact on the
:35:59. > :36:04.sport. For those who don't know, it was probably the golden age of
:36:05. > :36:07.British boxing. We never had so many world champions, we never had so
:36:08. > :36:15.many genuine pound for pound of the greatest fighters on the planet, and
:36:16. > :36:19.you were absolutely there. I had some heart sites in the street,
:36:20. > :36:26.being hit with pickaxes, baseball bats. -- some hard fights in the
:36:27. > :36:31.street. I didn't have any fear. Whenever I stepped in that ring, I
:36:32. > :36:35.had no fear of absolutely anyone. I wanted to talk about your rivalry
:36:36. > :36:41.with Chris Eubank. For those of us on the outside, you couldn't like
:36:42. > :36:46.you both and in our house we like to you. I felt I could meet you down
:36:47. > :36:54.the pub and you could be a mate. Chris Eubank was another... Another
:36:55. > :36:57.planet. One might say that. I thank the Lord for putting Chris in my
:36:58. > :37:06.fight because we were able to get 47,000, at Old Trafford, over 18.5
:37:07. > :37:11.million watching us on TV. Just two different people. He goes one way, I
:37:12. > :37:15.go the other. He talks gobbledygook. He is just out there as a very
:37:16. > :37:21.eccentric black man, or tries to be, but I know him, I know him, and he
:37:22. > :37:24.knows I know him. One of the most significant fights in your career
:37:25. > :37:28.was against Gerald McClellan who ended up being very seriously
:37:29. > :37:36.injured. I just wonder how you reflect on that. At that time, it
:37:37. > :37:40.didn't have no impact on me at all because he was saying to my dad,
:37:41. > :37:46."I'm going to hurt your boy," at the press conference. I came out with a
:37:47. > :37:51.damaged nose, damaged joints, and a shadow on my brain. He came out
:37:52. > :37:59.paralysed, blind, A-Z death and in a wheelchair. -- 8% death. At that
:38:00. > :38:05.time I wasn't Christian so my life was still in bits. I was just
:38:06. > :38:11.plodding along, getting on with life. I didn't have no feelings
:38:12. > :38:15.about anybody. 12 years later, I met him, me and my agent came to
:38:16. > :38:20.Lewisham and we decided, let's do a benefit for him, and we raised about
:38:21. > :38:26.$250,000 for him. When I met him again, it was just heartbreaking. My
:38:27. > :38:30.whole life had changed by them. You were the Dark Destroyer but you also
:38:31. > :38:36.suffered some profoundly dark times. Do you want to tell me about those?
:38:37. > :38:43.I think you know about my wife, we've been together 25 years. I just
:38:44. > :38:49.kept being unfaithful to the and everything that I did was very
:38:50. > :38:55.destructive, very destructive. It was just like... Was I happy doing
:38:56. > :38:59.what I was doing? No, but I didn't see any other way out. I didn't know
:39:00. > :39:07.any other way out. That was just life. Nigel, there was a night in
:39:08. > :39:13.your life, sitting in a car in South London, where things took a rather
:39:14. > :39:18.extreme turn. A life changing and life-saving moment. I remember that
:39:19. > :39:27.very clearly. That was in Streatham Common, where a story came out about
:39:28. > :39:35.me having an affair, another affair does not grow it wasn't the first -
:39:36. > :39:42.and it would not I couldn't believe I was in the same position. It was
:39:43. > :39:45.like I was always being tempted. I was going to end it all because I
:39:46. > :39:49.love this woman so much but yet I had a weakness that I could not
:39:50. > :39:54.break and I was just being tormented in my head and I sat in the car and
:39:55. > :40:00.took some sleeping tablets and a bottle of wine, crying my eyes out,
:40:01. > :40:04.and I just thought, "I'm not in this position again, I just want to end
:40:05. > :40:10.it all," and I don't know if I really wanted to die. I just wanted
:40:11. > :40:14.someone to say, you know what? You are going to be all right. You are
:40:15. > :40:18.going to get through this. I sat there crying my eyes out. I had
:40:19. > :40:22.everything you could dream of - a mansion, money in the bank - yet I
:40:23. > :40:31.was lonely. I was just on my own, just crying. I thought, "it's not my
:40:32. > :40:35.time," so I went home and slept for about two days and then my wife went
:40:36. > :40:39.to the church and was sitting in there for about three hours saying,
:40:40. > :40:43."if you are really up there, you've got to help me out down here," and
:40:44. > :40:50.she said she felt like a rucksack had been taken off her back and she
:40:51. > :40:55.came home, she banged on the door. We ain't spoken for a couple of
:40:56. > :41:02.months but she opened the door and she said, "Jesus says it's going to
:41:03. > :41:09.be all right," and I'm thinking, OK... She was reading the Bible. I
:41:10. > :41:15.was saying, OK, yeah, right. It was in one ear and out of the other.
:41:16. > :41:20.What changed it for you? It was having more Bible studies and then I
:41:21. > :41:31.started reading Scripture, then I read a passage which said, "God is
:41:32. > :41:36.light and there is no darkness," and a passage about having fellowship
:41:37. > :41:41.with one another, but if we say we have not sinned, to save us from
:41:42. > :41:48.truth, the point I'm getting too is that if we confess, we are cleansed
:41:49. > :41:53.from all of writers must. I told the teacher, "I think I've been having
:41:54. > :41:56.an affair". It just came out. I didn't even want to say it'll stop
:41:57. > :42:01.she asked if I had told my wife and I said no, so I went home and
:42:02. > :42:11.confess to 16 years affairs to my wife, drug use. I went to live with
:42:12. > :42:16.my past is for one year. Me and my wife never had Communion for one
:42:17. > :42:23.year. I everything and this woman, she was called Pastor Cheryl and
:42:24. > :42:30.passed a gale "how dare you treat hurt...?" And I would cry, really
:42:31. > :42:36.cry. God did not use a man. He used a woman, a 65-year-old woman, to
:42:37. > :42:40.break me and I was petrified. I thought, "what has just happened
:42:41. > :42:45.here? " And not too long ago I was knocking people out for a living and
:42:46. > :42:48.doing a good job. I was not chasing the drugs or the rock 'n' roll is
:42:49. > :42:52.all the world titles. They mean absolutely nothing. Then things are
:42:53. > :42:56.not going to get me into heaven but having a relationship with Jesus is
:42:57. > :43:02.going to get me into heaven. It has been an absolute pleasure to meet
:43:03. > :43:04.you. Thank you. God bless you. Nigel Benn talking to Hardeep Singh
:43:05. > :43:07.Kohli. Did you dress up
:43:08. > :43:09.in ghoulish gear and give out handfuls of sweets to small children
:43:10. > :43:13.last night - or were you one of those muttering that Hallowe'en
:43:14. > :43:17.is a cynical marketing ploy? Well, this is
:43:18. > :43:24.a time traditionally observed by Christians for remembering the
:43:25. > :43:26.dead. It's All Saints' Day today and
:43:27. > :43:33.All Souls' tomorrow. Perhaps a good time to raise a
:43:34. > :43:37.rather tricky question - what happens when you die? We don't mean
:43:38. > :43:39.your soul but what happens to your remains.
:43:40. > :43:42.If you want to be buried, you'd better do it fast -
:43:43. > :43:45.Cremation is one choice, but for those who'd
:43:46. > :43:48.like the comfort of consecrated ground for their religious rituals,
:43:49. > :43:51.the City of London Cemetery has a solution - recycling graves.
:43:52. > :43:53.We met the Superintendent Gary Burks, who explained why
:43:54. > :44:03.I've worked at the City of London cemetery for just under 31 years.
:44:04. > :44:10.One of my predecessors started recognising the need in the 1960s
:44:11. > :44:15.when we still had 40 years of burial space, pushed through the Houses of
:44:16. > :44:19.Parliament in 1969, which allows us to reclaim a grave after it hasn't
:44:20. > :44:23.been used in over 75 years. That means that when people say they own
:44:24. > :44:27.a grave, they own the rights of burial in the grave, not
:44:28. > :44:32.specifically the land. That's why we are in a position now where we can
:44:33. > :44:36.provide people will grave space ongoing. Some of Britain's
:44:37. > :44:41.cemeteries are full, some are not. It depends on the area, the
:44:42. > :44:46.availability of land. What reclaiming means is that using the
:44:47. > :44:49.depth remaining or in some cases disturbing remains, placing them
:44:50. > :44:53.deeper within the grave and burying more people in that grave. The
:44:54. > :44:56.remains stay within the grave, so the grave will always be there, will
:44:57. > :45:04.always have those remains in it. There'll always be a record of that
:45:05. > :45:08.burial taking place. This is one of the memorials where we've reclaimed
:45:09. > :45:13.the rights of burial. Because there is an inscription on the stone and
:45:14. > :45:19.it is legible, we've kept it in place, turned the memorial around so
:45:20. > :45:24.the front becomes the back and the new inscription is available on the
:45:25. > :45:28.front. We have a public notice in a we put in areas of the cemetery
:45:29. > :45:32.where graves are being reclaimed. It records the numbers of the graves
:45:33. > :45:36.being reclaimed and states all the information anyone needs to object
:45:37. > :45:41.to that grave being reclaimed. We are very proud of what we've done.
:45:42. > :45:46.And we understand that it is not everyone's choice. We are very lucky
:45:47. > :45:51.at the moment that we've got other options available to families. There
:45:52. > :45:58.possibly will come a time, not in my working life, where there won't be
:45:59. > :46:10.that option. What do you think about that? Rejoining our panel is Ajmal
:46:11. > :46:13.Masroor. Gary there said it is not everyone's choice to be, I suppose
:46:14. > :46:18.either to be buried further down, not that you will know, because
:46:19. > :46:23.you're dead, but to put a body on top, in other words to reclaim
:46:24. > :46:27.graveyard plots. What are your thoughts? I'm not that keen on
:46:28. > :46:33.talking about it at all, to be honest. I can give you opinions, but
:46:34. > :46:37.I have no view on this. Isn't it Poltergeist, the movie, they only
:46:38. > :46:43.move the gravestone. Is that right? I think so. I don't know, but that's
:46:44. > :46:48.a Great Hall wean voice. Haven't you seen it? I haven't, and I don't
:46:49. > :46:58.think I will either. I think you should. Of the funerals I've had to
:46:59. > :47:02.go and that increases as you get to a certain age, there've been one or
:47:03. > :47:06.two which were fantastic, and that was entirely because God wasn't
:47:07. > :47:12.invited. That helped a lot, because all the music was like a band, a
:47:13. > :47:17.rock 'n' roll band. One of them went out with Jimi Hendrix screaming away
:47:18. > :47:21.on the guitar. The coffin itself was made out of rushes and reeds,
:47:22. > :47:27.flowers everywhere. God, religion, nowhere. In fact everybody had a
:47:28. > :47:32.great time and said, that was wonderful, and to coin that terrible
:47:33. > :47:37.cliche, she, in this case works have loved that. Ajmal, putting that to
:47:38. > :47:41.one side at the moment, as we are talking about burial plots. I know
:47:42. > :47:47.your views on religion. I wouldn't be buried. No, burn me, if there's
:47:48. > :47:51.any bits worth having, give them to somebody else in the hospital.
:47:52. > :47:55.Ajmal, what are your thoughts on the idea of reclaiming the old graves?
:47:56. > :48:02.Burying the old bonus further down, putting another set on top, and
:48:03. > :48:05.having one side of the gravestone with one dedication and the other
:48:06. > :48:14.side with the other. I have no problem with that. I've said to my
:48:15. > :48:18.family, bury me where I died, and wish me well. Life and death needs a
:48:19. > :48:23.meaning. In my life, as far as I'm concerned as a Muslim, life is just
:48:24. > :48:27.a temporary space in which I am to invest for the life to come. Death
:48:28. > :48:31.is a stepping stone, a door that opens up to that next life. So what
:48:32. > :48:36.is my body as far as death is concerned? It becomes part of the
:48:37. > :48:42.earth, carbon. Once it has decayed, hate gone. Why am I so obsessed
:48:43. > :48:47.about a piece of earth which is 6 feet deep and 3 feet wide? It is
:48:48. > :48:52.very minimal. I winter to bury a friend of mine the other day. The
:48:53. > :48:56.person who dug the grave said Sir, look at the grave, it is going to be
:48:57. > :49:05.your home one day. It really struck me. I took a picture of it and pit
:49:06. > :49:09.it on Facebook, not to scare people, but to show people if we are to
:49:10. > :49:14.prepare of death, it is only a station,ly never be scared of it. I
:49:15. > :49:18.will never be scared of recycling my grave. What's the big deal? On the
:49:19. > :49:23.afterlife and whether there is one and whether you have a religion,
:49:24. > :49:28.there is no doubt that confronting mortality gives you a different view
:49:29. > :49:33.on life. Many of us don't believe there is an afterlife and so this is
:49:34. > :49:36.it and you had better enjoy it. I've had containers twice and both times
:49:37. > :49:40.were pretty frightening. The second time you think, OK, so the news that
:49:41. > :49:45.it has come back really isn't good news. I remember being near
:49:46. > :49:50.Trafalgar Square after I had been to the hospital and the visceral fear I
:49:51. > :49:54.had in my heart. I thought, I do not want to die. I will do anything not
:49:55. > :49:59.to die. I'm not frightened of the process of dying particularly,
:50:00. > :50:02.though obviously to have a horrible, painful, lingering death would be
:50:03. > :50:07.ghastly. I just really, really, really don't want to be dead. I
:50:08. > :50:13.don't want I'm going to be with Virgins or anyone else in an
:50:14. > :50:17.afterlife, s I had better enjoy the one I've got here. We should
:50:18. > :50:22.celebrate the fact we have this precious gift of life. If you have
:50:23. > :50:27.an idea it will go on somewhere else and this is the preamble, I don't
:50:28. > :50:32.think that's a helpful perspective. I think we should live every single
:50:33. > :50:36.mint on this planet with passion and kindness and curiosity and interest
:50:37. > :50:41.and joy, because this is the only opportunity we have. It doesn't stop
:50:42. > :50:43.me It doesn't stop me from It doesn't stop me from being just that
:50:44. > :50:48.- passionate, curious, exciting. Doing everything I want to do, but I
:50:49. > :50:53.have a meaning to my life and to my death, which I believe in my view, a
:50:54. > :50:56.profound one. It enables me to make sense, to make relationships beyond
:50:57. > :50:59.the material. Beyond the here and now. I don't do it for your
:51:00. > :51:04.pleasure. I believe there's something better to come. It is not
:51:05. > :51:10.limited to a few days of joy or pain, in your case the cancer, which
:51:11. > :51:15.I hope never comes back to you. I hope you find a full cure. If I was
:51:16. > :51:19.to die in agonising pain, it wouldn't bother me. Why? Because to
:51:20. > :51:25.me this life is only a stepping stone for things to come. Forget the
:51:26. > :51:30.Virgins for a second... One second if I may interrupt in the way you
:51:31. > :51:33.interrupted me. Of course you can. You don't know, it is supposition
:51:34. > :51:37.and I would argue fantasy that you are going to have this eternal life
:51:38. > :51:42.somewhere else. All we have for a fact is what we have here now. For
:51:43. > :51:47.me to be pointing at a grave and saying, this is going to be my home
:51:48. > :51:51.and putting it an Instagram or whatever... How does that stop you
:51:52. > :51:56.from being good and enjoying your life. Sorry, carry on. We weren't
:51:57. > :52:01.intending having a discussion on what happens to your soul. You can't
:52:02. > :52:06.escape it. Clearly. We were talking about what happens after you die,
:52:07. > :52:10.what happens to your remains. I suppose it is important to think not
:52:11. > :52:13.just about you, because as you pointed out, if you are dead, what's
:52:14. > :52:18.to worry about? It is thinking about the family and the family who are
:52:19. > :52:24.grieving and where they would choose to grieve. I know Molly this is
:52:25. > :52:27.something you've had to think about very recently, because your
:52:28. > :52:31.ex-husband Michael died recently and you've got four children and that
:52:32. > :52:37.must have been terribly difficult. I'm going to talk nonpersonally if
:52:38. > :52:44.you don't mind, but you are right. The family are very, very important.
:52:45. > :52:50.I rather agree with the views here that once we are dead we are no long
:52:51. > :52:54.they were the body. That's why it is so useful for everybody to see the
:52:55. > :52:59.body of somebody once they've died. I always remember doing this when I
:53:00. > :53:04.was 29 with my former mother-in-law. It was a terrible experience, my
:53:05. > :53:09.first confrontation with death, but it really made clear to me, I say
:53:10. > :53:12.she's gone, not there any more. And then the issue of cremation and
:53:13. > :53:18.burial becomes very much easier to deal. I don't know how I would have
:53:19. > :53:22.dealt with her cremation if I hadn't seen her body and thought, she isn't
:53:23. > :53:32.there, this isn't her, just a carcass. So she ceases to become
:53:33. > :53:37.her. The body, it is just part, we become part of the universe and
:53:38. > :53:43.therefore what's done with the body isn't relevant. The important thing
:53:44. > :53:48.for families is after the death is going through a grieving process,
:53:49. > :53:56.but then having somewhere to go or some way of remembering the person.
:53:57. > :54:00.My feeling is that all this focus on tombstones and graves is grim for
:54:01. > :54:10.people left behind. Speaking for myself and my parents, I have a I
:54:11. > :54:13.have a photo of my parents, I remember them when they were alive
:54:14. > :54:20.and my relationship with them. Focus on the living, not on the death. I
:54:21. > :54:27.don't have children. I don't think, I would love to think there were
:54:28. > :54:33.thousands of people in the world... Your legacy will be you. What
:54:34. > :54:40.matters is how you live on in other people's hearts. 2 billion people on
:54:41. > :54:47.the planet, we can't all have grave stones. There would be nothing left.
:54:48. > :54:49.It is part of that thing, I must have something that's mine. It is
:54:50. > :55:22.too late. don't move people like rubbish. They
:55:23. > :55:26.are just making sure that those who want to be buried this sacred ground
:55:27. > :55:30.still have an option to do so. And that is important. Our legislation
:55:31. > :55:34.is very strict about moving graves. I'm about to renovate a place and
:55:35. > :55:37.we've found a grave in there. We have to get in touch with many
:55:38. > :55:42.officers, get through the legislation. That in itself is a
:55:43. > :55:47.problem. The bigger issue is what do we consider life and death to be?
:55:48. > :55:53.Iffer so obsessed about life, we will never get rid of it, never want
:55:54. > :55:58.to let it go. It's gone. What I cherish is the memory, my legacy. My
:55:59. > :56:02.father told me this, son, when you are dead, how will the world
:56:03. > :56:06.remember you? And when you lived on this earth how did you benefit the
:56:07. > :56:10.world? And in the world in which you lived, how did you benefit from it?
:56:11. > :56:13.That's your legacy. If we can remember those legacies, a burial
:56:14. > :56:20.site, a Steen, a piece of land is nothing. Bill? I was going to make
:56:21. > :56:25.one rill recommendation, if I may, meant to be constructive. For
:56:26. > :56:32.anybody who is about to go, as it were, to say please bury me. Don't
:56:33. > :56:35.bury me, sorry. Get Ashes and then leave interesting instructions for
:56:36. > :56:42.your family as to what to do with the Ashes. I beg of you, try and
:56:43. > :56:46.think of something funny, because my wife for example, I think it was her
:56:47. > :56:52.mum or aunty, she got these instructions. She wanted her Ashes
:56:53. > :56:57.thrown off Beachy Head, scattered to the wind. They took the top off, a
:56:58. > :57:04.scattered into the wind and they all blew back in their faces. But they
:57:05. > :57:08.fell about laughing. Thank you. We are going to end the programme
:57:09. > :57:09.cheerfully. Thank you for that, bale.
:57:10. > :57:13.Thank you to all my guests and you at home for your comments too.
:57:14. > :57:15.We've been talking about death this morning - all very chirpy.
:57:16. > :57:18.Well, at least it is in Mexico, where they celebrate the Day
:57:19. > :57:22.2nd November is a festival which remembers those who have gone
:57:23. > :57:28.To mark it, we've asked The Mariachis to sing us
:57:29. > :57:30.out with their version of the Monty Python Classic- 'Always Look
:57:31. > :57:33.on the Bright Side of Life' - coincidentally, the most popular
:57:34. > :57:40.We're taking a break next week, so we'll see you on 15th November.
:57:41. > :57:50.# Other things just make you swear and curse
:57:51. > :57:52.# When you're chewing on life's gristle
:57:53. > :57:58.# And this'll help things turn out for the best
:57:59. > :58:01.# And always look on the bright side of life
:58:02. > :58:13.# Always look on the light side of life
:58:14. > :58:20.# And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing
:58:21. > :58:27.# Just purse your lips and whistle - that's the thing.
:58:28. > :59:00.# And, always look on the bright side of life
:59:01. > :59:07.# Always look on the light side of life. #