:00:00. > :00:07.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Morning Live.
:00:08. > :00:24.Paris is in mourning after gun and bomb attacks killed 128 people,
:00:25. > :00:32.More than 2 million adults in England are said to be.
:00:33. > :00:35.Peter Hitchens caused a stir here a few months ago after saying there
:00:36. > :00:43.Culture clash - as more than 1,000 artists boycott
:00:44. > :00:46.Israel over its policies, others, like JK Rowling, say sharing culture
:00:47. > :00:51.is a power for good. Who's right?
:00:52. > :00:54.And veteran war photographer Don McCullin explains what makes
:00:55. > :00:57.a good picture as he helps pick a winner for this year's
:00:58. > :01:13.It explores images of religion. I thought religion was about devotion,
:01:14. > :01:20.respect and love, and all I have seen is the kind of cruelty that
:01:21. > :01:24.sometimes religion when it goes wrong... It doesn't go wrong, it is
:01:25. > :01:36.the people who observe it that go wrong. They go too far.
:01:37. > :01:42.As ever, Tommy Sandhu adhere to share your thoughts at home this
:01:43. > :01:47.morning. Good morning. If you always watch the show but you never get in
:01:48. > :01:54.touch, let this be the week that you do. It is easy to get your comments
:01:55. > :02:23.into the show, on Facebook and Twitter:
:02:24. > :02:31.send in your video reaction so we can get your comments and even your
:02:32. > :02:43.Peter Hitchens is a columnist at the Mail On Sunday.
:02:44. > :02:53.They killed people out enjoying a Friday evening in Paris
:02:54. > :02:58.at a rock concert, a football friendly, in bars and restaurants.
:02:59. > :03:04.By the end of the night, nearly 130 were dead,
:03:05. > :03:08.So-called Islamic State say they carried out the series of gun
:03:09. > :03:11.and bomb attacks, calling France a top target.
:03:12. > :03:13.Two of those targets were the Bataclan concert venue
:03:14. > :03:17.The stadium was hosting a match between France and Germany,
:03:18. > :03:21.Declaring a state of emergency, he called the attacks an act
:03:22. > :03:26.of war, vowing to wage a merciless fight against terrorists.
:03:27. > :03:29.Here, David Cameron offered British help and summoned his Cabinet
:03:30. > :03:42.There will be another emergency meeting today.
:03:43. > :03:48.You'll now see extra police at ports and public events
:03:49. > :03:51.While security is paramount, is there anything else that can be
:03:52. > :04:07.Our question this morning is how should Britain reacts to the attacks
:04:08. > :04:12.in Paris? Joining us is the author of the book Islamophobia. We will be
:04:13. > :04:16.with you in just a sec but we want to start with Peter. I heard Theresa
:04:17. > :04:20.May, the Home Secretary, on the Andrew Marr Show, talking about
:04:21. > :04:26.public vigilance and increased security. Is that going to be
:04:27. > :04:32.enough, do you think? I think there is a tendency on these occasions for
:04:33. > :04:36.people in Government to act on the maxim of never let a good crisis go
:04:37. > :04:39.to waste. There are people that want more surveillance and to limit our
:04:40. > :04:44.civil liberties even more and they will use this as a pretext. I think
:04:45. > :04:49.this is unthinking. We need to react with calm and caution and a great
:04:50. > :04:52.deal of thought. Let's have more of the security which has failed.
:04:53. > :04:57.France is probably a more secure country in most terms than we are.
:04:58. > :05:08.It has a stronger state, more surveillance and it has not
:05:09. > :05:10.protected Paris from what has happened, and the idea that it will,
:05:11. > :05:13.that these attempts can be wholly invented, it seems to me to be
:05:14. > :05:15.mistaken. Let's think very carefully before we rush into another raft of
:05:16. > :05:18.measures to make us more miserable. We will do the work of the
:05:19. > :05:22.terrorists if we change our society into a less free place and it will
:05:23. > :05:26.do no good. It is difficult to have this feeling of calm when there is
:05:27. > :05:31.panic and fear, in France of course and in Britain as well. The pressure
:05:32. > :05:37.on politicians to do something and to be seen to be doing something
:05:38. > :05:43.quite intense at the moment. Yes, and I do admire the stance that
:05:44. > :05:48.Peter is taking. But myself I have hung on to the idea of our liberties
:05:49. > :05:54.and the suspicion of the state, which I still feel very deeply, just
:05:55. > :05:59.as deeply as Peter Hitchens, but I really think that we are in a
:06:00. > :06:04.different order with IS. On Thursday something like 50 people were blown
:06:05. > :06:08.up in the Lebanon. And hundreds were injured. There is not a day that
:06:09. > :06:14.goes by now where they are not hyperactive, here, there and
:06:15. > :06:21.everywhere. It has been going on since 1981. Said they are
:06:22. > :06:25.uncontrollable? If this is an organisation, this lot, this
:06:26. > :06:28.collection, if you like, seems very much more able to do stuff. I
:06:29. > :06:35.reluctantly have come to the conclusion this weekend that yes, up
:06:36. > :06:40.to a point, I am prepared to put up with increased... I can ever say
:06:41. > :06:46.this word! Surveillance. Knowing full well what Peter said, that the
:06:47. > :06:53.powerful will grab as much power as they can. OK. Do we have to give up
:06:54. > :06:57.a bit of our liberty to increase our protection, Douglas? I don't think
:06:58. > :07:09.so. I agree with everything that has been said by Peter and a lot of what
:07:10. > :07:12.Yasmin has said. It is important that we do not leap around and
:07:13. > :07:18.overreact to this. It is important that there is rhetoric around this.
:07:19. > :07:23.We will see whether President Hollande is merciless towards IS. We
:07:24. > :07:27.will see whether we have a phase as we have had in UK, and are googly
:07:28. > :07:32.across Europe, where wherever we talk about this subject, politicians
:07:33. > :07:36.do an extraordinary mixture of grandiosity and tinkering. They say
:07:37. > :07:41.we are at war with an existential threat, the threat of our time, and
:07:42. > :07:47.then they say that in response we must extend surveillance here or we
:07:48. > :07:50.must do this or that. This is not up to the challenge. If you accept that
:07:51. > :07:58.the challenge is there, and I think that it is, then you do not simply
:07:59. > :08:02.tinker. What do you do? All sorts of things. One of the things, you would
:08:03. > :08:07.make sure you know who is coming into your country and who is here.
:08:08. > :08:10.And it is insane that in recent years, at the same time as saying
:08:11. > :08:19.there is an element within Islamic communities, whatever percentage you
:08:20. > :08:22.think it is, which has the potential to be radicalised and have medieval
:08:23. > :08:24.ideas, if you believe that is true, and mainstream politicians across
:08:25. > :08:28.Europe also that is true, why on earth would you bring an
:08:29. > :08:34.unprecedented number from the Muslim world into Europe? Why would you do
:08:35. > :08:40.it? Because the free movement of people is one of our core values in
:08:41. > :08:44.Europe. We believe university in human rights, liberty, equality and
:08:45. > :08:48.fraternity, they are not just Western values. They are Muslim
:08:49. > :08:51.values and the vast majority of the Muslim world is appalled. They want
:08:52. > :08:55.these values and they do not want dictators. Many of them are skipping
:08:56. > :09:02.terrorist groups like IS by coming into Europe. By showing them that
:09:03. > :09:06.generosity, we are undermining the terrorists, who are trying to pit
:09:07. > :09:11.them against us. We have to stick to our values and welcome the refugees.
:09:12. > :09:15.The vast majority of them will contribute to this society. We have
:09:16. > :09:21.to deal with the terrorist military threat of IS, absolutely. We are at
:09:22. > :09:25.war with them. I nobody wants you to be right more than I do. Take an
:09:26. > :09:31.opinion poll that came out after the Charlie Hebdo massacre in Paris. The
:09:32. > :09:36.BBC said that 27% of British Muslims polled had sympathy with the
:09:37. > :09:45.attackers in Paris. 27%! That is not a majority, I grant you. Just a
:09:46. > :09:52.quarter. One at the time. Yasmin? Of course there are anxieties. They
:09:53. > :09:59.think that one of the people involved came through the route of
:10:00. > :10:05.seeking asylum. But most people are not IS. They are escaping them. That
:10:06. > :10:10.is what I am saying very strongly. In some ways, we Muslims have to
:10:11. > :10:15.stop seeing ourselves primarily as Muslims, and see ourselves more as
:10:16. > :10:20.Europeans. There has been a terrible influence from Saudi Arabia that has
:10:21. > :10:26.been allowed to corrupt us. But equally the Europeans should stop as
:10:27. > :10:40.Muslims first and citizens next. All of that will make a difference. And
:10:41. > :10:44.I am not, saying there is no problem, like Usama, but we have to
:10:45. > :10:50.give some credence to the idea that most of those people coming here are
:10:51. > :10:55.desperate. But it only takes one. That criminals come from everywhere.
:10:56. > :10:58.We are missing two points. There is a perfectly sound argument for
:10:59. > :11:01.having control of borders even if there were no terrorist attacks at
:11:02. > :11:05.all and I did think using a terrorist attack for this argument
:11:06. > :11:08.is a particularly good idea. A terrorist attack is bad in its own
:11:09. > :11:13.right and we respond to it in its own right. If you mean by open
:11:14. > :11:16.borders that you can allow people to walk into the country that anybody
:11:17. > :11:19.knowing where they are coming from and who they are, then any
:11:20. > :11:24.reasonable person must be against that. The curious thing about the
:11:25. > :11:27.European Union is their policy is exactly that, that people can come
:11:28. > :11:32.in and checked and undocumented and move unchecked throughout the entire
:11:33. > :11:35.European Union. That seems crazy to me and any circumstances, even if
:11:36. > :11:46.there were no terrorist attacks, and I would be amazed if anyone's would
:11:47. > :11:50.defend that even with no terrorist attacks. The other thing is what is
:11:51. > :11:54.the nature of IS and what is the threat to us and how can we combat
:11:55. > :11:58.it? The solution to this do not lie in domestic policy but foreign
:11:59. > :12:02.policy. We have been most reluctant to Ally properly with the Kurds, who
:12:03. > :12:07.have been the most effective fighters against IS on the ground,
:12:08. > :12:12.and we have been against Alliant with Iran, and we have been critical
:12:13. > :12:19.of Russia, who has been effective in holding up the Syrian regime, one of
:12:20. > :12:24.IS's most principal opponents. We might consider any of these things
:12:25. > :12:28.if we want to defeat IS as a major force. I want to bring in Dr Chris
:12:29. > :12:32.Allen from the newsroom in Birmingham. Is there an answer to
:12:33. > :12:37.this and does it lie in a change in foreign policy? Does it like in
:12:38. > :12:42.perhaps getting rid of the open borders agreement and having a more
:12:43. > :12:46.rigorous approach to people coming into Europe? What is your answer?
:12:47. > :12:51.Listening to this discussion so far what is interesting to me is that we
:12:52. > :12:55.have started with one thing and got on to something very different.
:12:56. > :12:59.Looking at the language, we are talking about Muslims as a blanket
:13:00. > :13:04.community around the world. Muslims in Syria and Iraq, talked about in
:13:05. > :13:07.the same way as Muslims in Britain. Immigration, which is not
:13:08. > :13:18.necessarily a Muslim issue. This is a different and distinct issue but
:13:19. > :13:20.suddenly we are talking about immigration as though it is
:13:21. > :13:23.problematic because of Muslims coming to this country. I think one
:13:24. > :13:25.of the things that we need to do here is to differentiate between the
:13:26. > :13:27.different debates and discussions taking place. If we are talking
:13:28. > :13:30.about this issue of what has happened in Paris and what we should
:13:31. > :13:35.do, I think the message is one of calm. If we look at 7/7 and Lee
:13:36. > :13:39.Rigby and these things, they were on British soil, and they impacted on
:13:40. > :13:43.Britain directly. What we have now is something that has taken place in
:13:44. > :13:47.Paris, which is horrific. But is it going to affect us in Britain at the
:13:48. > :13:58.moment? We are talking as though there will be an attack here
:13:59. > :14:03.imminently and I think this is to look at this as an intelligent
:14:04. > :14:10.issue. And actually talk about these issues in a balanced and nuanced
:14:11. > :14:13.way. Is it an intelligence issue? Obviously not slowly, but did
:14:14. > :14:21.intelligence let everybody down in Paris? I don't think anything that
:14:22. > :14:25.anybody has said lacks nuance, which is a patronising dismissal of what
:14:26. > :14:29.everybody has said. That always happens, changing the point and
:14:30. > :14:37.limiting the discussion. This is a very large issue, a societal
:14:38. > :14:41.official, a cultural issue. What happened in Paris, it goes on and
:14:42. > :14:45.on. It is not possible to have this discussion, and police, and make
:14:46. > :14:50.sure we do not have certain elements of it, because we have got to have
:14:51. > :14:54.the full discussion. To pick up on that point, would you have a full
:14:55. > :15:02.discussion about not just a stroke in Syria, which of course was voted
:15:03. > :15:10.down in the House of Commons, but boots on the ground? Is it about
:15:11. > :15:14.getting rid of IS in Syria? It is a perfectly legitimate objective if IS
:15:15. > :15:18.carry out an attack on one country, that that country should use all
:15:19. > :15:22.military force to destroy that group. What was proposed two years
:15:23. > :15:29.ago it was not that, it was punitive strikes against the Assad regime. I
:15:30. > :15:33.actually disagreed with that, because it would have meant toppling
:15:34. > :15:37.him and then we would have owned Syria when we do not want to, but
:15:38. > :15:41.strikes against are obviously legitimate. As for surveillance, you
:15:42. > :15:50.can have all the surveillance in the world and things like this will
:15:51. > :15:53.happen. You cannot stop a barbarian getting hold of a Kalashnikov and
:15:54. > :15:56.murdering people for the crime of going to a restaurant. You will
:15:57. > :16:00.never have enough surveillance that we should not blame security
:16:01. > :16:03.services in Paris and here for not being able to prevent that happening
:16:04. > :16:14.all of the time. Usama is it about going into Syria a
:16:15. > :16:24.lot harder than anyone has done? I think we should call a spade a
:16:25. > :16:29.spade. In Syria we have a brutal regime and Isis murdering thousands
:16:30. > :16:34.of people also, mainly Muslims. We need a political solution to end the
:16:35. > :16:40.war. What is that political solution? The reason we haven't
:16:41. > :16:44.allied with the Kurds as much is Turkey is an ally and there are
:16:45. > :16:48.problems with Iran and Russia supporting Assad. We do need that
:16:49. > :16:58.debate to continue. But mentioned Charlie Hebdo, correct lyric. A lot
:16:59. > :17:03.of Muslims thought these were blasphemous cartoons but opinion has
:17:04. > :17:09.moved on. For example Charlie Hebdo published a cartoon about the boy
:17:10. > :17:15.that was drowned, about the plane brought down by a bomb which many
:17:16. > :17:20.Russians were offended by. A lot of people ghetto fended by the unique
:17:21. > :17:26.nature of Charlie Hebdo. We are moving in the right direction in
:17:27. > :17:30.Britain and Europe. To have open and honest conversations... Yes I want
:17:31. > :17:34.to give credit so the security services here. I ty services here. I
:17:35. > :17:38.know for the fact ty services here. I know for the fact - and the police
:17:39. > :17:40.too - that some terrible disasters have been prevented. They don't talk
:17:41. > :17:44.about them. They can't talk about them sometimes. The downside of that
:17:45. > :17:50.is too often blameless Muslims are held without charge and so on. And
:17:51. > :17:54.that needs to change. We have to maintain those rights. But there has
:17:55. > :17:58.been some good work done by people to keep us safe, so we shouldn't
:17:59. > :18:02.dismiss what they've been able to do. Don't overrate these
:18:03. > :18:06.organisations. James Bond is fiction and so is Spooks. There's
:18:07. > :18:13.surprisingly little they can do. The fundamental thing they are not and
:18:14. > :18:16.never will will be is clairvoyant. They simply can't tell what is going
:18:17. > :18:23.to happen before it happens. The idea that by poking more and more
:18:24. > :18:27.into our lives is false. What is the answer, any answer. If there had
:18:28. > :18:31.been a plane crash we would get hold of the flight recorders and look to
:18:32. > :18:35.see what happened in detail and we would work to ensure it didn't
:18:36. > :18:40.happen again. The same should be done here. What is actually going
:18:41. > :18:45.on? What should we be preventing, what should we be fighting, what
:18:46. > :18:49.should our foreign policy be? From September 11th 2001 we've had a
:18:50. > :18:55.stupid foreign policy towards this part of the world which has caused
:18:56. > :18:59.far more trouble than it has solved. To continue to believe that tanks,
:19:00. > :19:04.bombs and air strikes and boots on the ground will help, when it has
:19:05. > :19:08.failed all this time, is incredibly stupid. You've been sending us many
:19:09. > :19:54.texts and messages. We've just had this video from Paul.
:19:55. > :20:01.In order to get this right at its root one has to reform Islam. In
:20:02. > :20:04.much the same way that Christianity has been reformed, Islam needs a
:20:05. > :20:08.reformation. Without that it is going to carry on recruiting lots of
:20:09. > :20:12.these suicide bombers, because in the end of the day they are
:20:13. > :20:17.following what they believe is written down. Islam needs reform,
:20:18. > :20:21.Sian. That's what Paul says. Thank you, I want to pick that up with
:20:22. > :20:24.Chris in your brim studio. What do you make of that last comment about
:20:25. > :20:30.Islam needing reforming and that's the way forward? I always find it
:20:31. > :20:37.interesting that nonexperts can actually tell other religions what
:20:38. > :20:40.they need to do. It is like, I'm not a theologian for Judaism, so I
:20:41. > :20:46.wouldn't tell the Jewish faith what it needs to do. A lot of people hear
:20:47. > :20:50.these debates and about the reformation of Islam, but what would
:20:51. > :20:55.that do? Religions change and evolve over centuries. These are constantly
:20:56. > :21:00.changing. What we have here, and picking up on some of the previous
:21:01. > :21:04.points, if we get rid of Islamic State, if we bomb Islamic State,
:21:05. > :21:11.would we create a void that's going to be filled by other extremists.
:21:12. > :21:15.Our own Government, in December 2013, the extremism task force, the
:21:16. > :21:20.Government was talking about the greatest threat from Al-Qaeda, and
:21:21. > :21:26.once that moves on a new idea fills it. We heard there are more than 700
:21:27. > :21:31.British people who've gone out to Syria and 400 or so have come back.
:21:32. > :21:38.Does that not give you cause for concern? I think it is concerning,
:21:39. > :21:41.but one of the things we've got legislation in place where my
:21:42. > :21:46.understanding is when people come back from Iraq or Syria they can be
:21:47. > :21:50.arrested. So there's questions around why is the legislation not
:21:51. > :21:55.being used. One of the things we've done which is wrong is this idea
:21:56. > :22:07.that we can deradicalise people here in this country. If you look back to
:22:08. > :22:12.new Labour and the post 77 period. This prevent agenda, where we take
:22:13. > :22:18.them out of and make them more moderate Muslims. What do we mean by
:22:19. > :22:22.this? This is bringing organisations to the table, that agree with
:22:23. > :22:27.Government and rubber stamping Government ideas. Alan is pushing a
:22:28. > :22:34.particular point of view here, not one I agree with. Reformation Islam,
:22:35. > :22:38.whatever that means, would mean that whenever an attack like this
:22:39. > :22:42.happened there was no legitimacy whatsoever for it happening. The
:22:43. > :22:48.problem is, let me give a quick example. Late last year the young
:22:49. > :22:55.Jordanian pilot whose plane came down and he was burned alive in
:22:56. > :22:59.Syria by Isis ar bairns. When that happened, a very prominent school of
:23:00. > :23:05.Islam issued a criticism of this happening. By the way they said the
:23:06. > :23:09.people who did it should be crucified for doing this, but they
:23:10. > :23:15.said that ice ries indeed extremist but the problem that they are not
:23:16. > :23:21.heretics. They were not heretics. Usama knows and Yasmin knows and
:23:22. > :23:31.everyone here knows this is the central problem. They are heretics.
:23:32. > :23:34.They are saying as non-Muslim you can't excommunicate them. Is it
:23:35. > :23:39.about the clarity of mental about what Islam is? Yes, the message
:23:40. > :23:43.should be clearer but the Theo lonelyians of Islam today are
:23:44. > :23:49.unanimous, every single one is condemning Isis, because they are
:23:50. > :23:53.killing Muslims everywhere. Islam is going through a reformation, it
:23:54. > :23:58.takes centuries, as the Christian one did. The elephant in the room is
:23:59. > :24:04.Saudi Arabia. The man like we treated like the King of the
:24:05. > :24:11.universe a few weeks ago, you want to know how the theology has been
:24:12. > :24:14.kidnapped, restricted, homogenised, forcefully changed from the
:24:15. > :24:17.diversity that Islam enjoyed, you have to look to Saudi Arabia and
:24:18. > :24:23.some of the Gulf states. We don't want to do that. It is an enormously
:24:24. > :24:28.important point and Yasmin is right to raise it. Saudi Arabia is
:24:29. > :24:33.important in the formulation of French and British policy, because
:24:34. > :24:38.it is such an important buyer of arms. Reform of Saudi Arabia would
:24:39. > :24:42.help Muslims worldwide. The point is this civil war is here and that's
:24:43. > :24:45.the problem. Thank you to all of you and for your comments at home as
:24:46. > :24:50.well. If you are worried about friend and family in Paris, the
:24:51. > :25:04.Foreign Office has a dedicated number to call:
:25:05. > :25:14.Coming up: Veteran war photographer Don McCullin talks about portraying
:25:15. > :25:17.faith through a camera lens. The idea of seeing various religions
:25:18. > :25:22.living in harmony of this country and showing you image obvious the
:25:23. > :25:28.best side of it can only increase the chances of understanding.
:25:29. > :25:30.Around 2 million adults are dependent on drugs and alcohol
:25:31. > :25:32.in England, according to the latest statistics,
:25:33. > :25:36.with one in 12 having taken an illicit drug in the last year.
:25:37. > :25:39.The word addiction is often used about over-indulging in drugs,
:25:40. > :25:42.alcohol, gambling, sex and even food.
:25:43. > :25:46.But is it about compulsion or choice?
:25:47. > :25:50.Russell Brand suggests drug addiction should be treated
:25:51. > :25:52.as a disease and a health issue, to be treated with compassion
:25:53. > :25:56.Peter Hitchens thinks that's nonsense,
:25:57. > :26:09.When discussing whether beef is an illness. People use the word
:26:10. > :26:17.addiction the whole time. There is no such thing as addiction, it is
:26:18. > :26:23.the permanent excuse... I can hear them saying, yes, there is. Tell my
:26:24. > :26:33.daughter's GP that. And we'll hear from Peter in a second. But first we
:26:34. > :26:37.met Adam Bradford, whose father's gambling habit became so severe he
:26:38. > :26:42.ended up going to prison. We had never seen him gamble, except when
:26:43. > :26:47.we went to the seaside, you go to the amusements and doing the fun
:26:48. > :26:53.stuff that families do. But we never had any suspicions of a gambling
:26:54. > :26:59.problem. The trigger I think for my entering into gambling in a more
:27:00. > :27:04.than social way was financial pressures brought on by
:27:05. > :27:11.mismanagement of my important finances. That delivered me to a
:27:12. > :27:18.false sense of potential solution in gambling. We found out through the
:27:19. > :27:25.front page of our paper that he had stolen ?50,000 from his employer and
:27:26. > :27:29.had a gambling addiction. For us, we thought, is this the same David
:27:30. > :27:35.Bradford? But it was. It is not because the core of me is bad, or I
:27:36. > :27:40.don't think so. I think it is that in the engine room of my mind
:27:41. > :27:45.there's a bit of it not functioning properly. It is an illness which
:27:46. > :27:48.I've seen in other people now. It manifests itself not a very similar
:27:49. > :27:52.way but everybody is slightly different. That's to do with the
:27:53. > :27:57.character that surrounds this illness. But the outcomes are always
:27:58. > :28:04.the same. We are kind of losers. It has lost him his confidence and his
:28:05. > :28:10.job. Had his decency as a human. It could lose us our house. People who
:28:11. > :28:15.remight say are not addicted, who will turn round on the back of our
:28:16. > :28:21.story and say, it his choice to do what he did. It affects the
:28:22. > :28:25.endorphins in your brain, just like drugs and alcohol do, that's within
:28:26. > :28:30.proven. We know the speed of gambling is getting quicker. There's
:28:31. > :28:34.many more adverts. The betting shots are expanding and the industry is
:28:35. > :28:41.profiting from people like my dad, who are getting into trouble. The
:28:42. > :28:46.only thing I'm left with is trying to, day by day, edge into making
:28:47. > :28:50.things better for the future. It is very, very difficult dragging that
:28:51. > :28:55.past with me but it is the only way I can function now. It has to be
:28:56. > :28:59.treated like an illness. It is not a criminal thing. It might lead to
:29:00. > :29:09.that, but that's the result, not the cause. Our question: Is addiction an
:29:10. > :29:13.illness? What are your thoughts? Tommy will read some out later.
:29:14. > :29:15.Joining the panel is actor and presenter Denise Welch,
:29:16. > :29:34.who says she's been addicted to smoking, drinking and over-eating.
:29:35. > :29:35.Dr Aric Sigman, a health education specialist
:29:36. > :29:37.And Dr Robert Lefever, who set up Britain's first rehab
:29:38. > :29:44.centre and specialises in addiction and depression.
:29:45. > :29:51.Peter, I want to read back to you something David said. He said, it is
:29:52. > :29:56.not because my core is bad, the engine room in my mind has something
:29:57. > :30:04.that's not functioning. He very much feels that he was addicted but you
:30:05. > :30:12.say that's an addiction? You can't diagnose yourself with a disease. I
:30:13. > :30:15.would defy anybody to come up with a definition of what addiction is
:30:16. > :30:21.which doesn't turn into something opposite to it when you use it ten
:30:22. > :30:23.minutes later, and to come up with an objective diagnosis of its
:30:24. > :30:29.presence in the human body. You can't say anyone is an addict in an
:30:30. > :30:35.objective way using scientific methods. Does it mean that they are
:30:36. > :30:38.not? We are discussing a moral question, society which increasingly
:30:39. > :30:42.is not willing to attribute personal responsibility to people, which
:30:43. > :30:46.makes excuses for almost anything people do which is bad. Once you do
:30:47. > :30:52.that it makes it much easier for people to do those bad things.
:30:53. > :30:55.Denise? Don't come on here as an expert on addiction, but we've
:30:56. > :30:59.talked before. I can only talk about my own. I think what addiction is
:31:00. > :31:03.doing, with my problem it started with clinical depression, which
:31:04. > :31:09.happened when I had my first son, Matthew. I think no matter how
:31:10. > :31:13.advanced people are in the medical world unless they've suffered from
:31:14. > :31:17.clinical depression it is difficult to describe. I would have done
:31:18. > :31:23.anything to stop the pain of my clinical depression, which led me
:31:24. > :31:28.down a road. I also don't say that I didn't sometimes use recreational
:31:29. > :31:33.drawings for that reason. I then became a vicious cycle. The more I
:31:34. > :31:36.used, the more I needed, the more it was compounding my depression until
:31:37. > :31:41.I found I was in a desperate place and the only thing I felt would stop
:31:42. > :31:45.my pain was cocaine and Scholl. But I was functioning, so I was
:31:46. > :31:52.convincing myself I didn't have this much of a problem, because I wasn't
:31:53. > :32:04.hiding gin bottles the sofa. But was it an addiction? It was a
:32:05. > :32:08.psychological addiction for me, rather than a physical addiction,
:32:09. > :32:13.but I have been working with people in the throes of a desperate
:32:14. > :32:21.physical addiction and I think it can be both. Dr Aric Sigman, can you
:32:22. > :32:27.tell us what happens in the brain when somebody has a compulsion to
:32:28. > :32:32.take drugs, alcohol, food, whatever it is? I partly agree with Peter, to
:32:33. > :32:37.cut to the chase. I think our society does not want to take
:32:38. > :32:40.responsibility initially for dabbling in addictive substances.
:32:41. > :32:44.But there comes a point, and I have brought a picture with me, where you
:32:45. > :32:51.start to see brain changes. This kind of change may happen with just
:32:52. > :32:55.one night of binge drinking, this is a teenager. The red areas are where
:32:56. > :33:02.the brain cells are thinner, weaker, with less coding. And then more red
:33:03. > :33:09.marks go then. What could start out as a lack of willpower, that ends up
:33:10. > :33:14.as neurochemical changes which take on a life of their own and then it
:33:15. > :33:17.becomes a physical process. It is difficult to be exact in the
:33:18. > :33:21.diagnosis, which you are absolutely right about, but that does not mean
:33:22. > :33:27.it may not be an illness. Let's face it, there are many alcoholics, if
:33:28. > :33:31.you take away that alcohol, they will die. That is not a social
:33:32. > :33:37.affectation. It depends what area of the spectrum you are wrong. There is
:33:38. > :33:42.a slight slippage there. People who die from alcohol die fundamentally
:33:43. > :33:48.from having abused and taking vast quantities of a dangerous drug for a
:33:49. > :33:52.long time. What about the changes in neurotransmitters? We know so little
:33:53. > :33:56.about the brain. Trying to judge causation in these things is like
:33:57. > :34:00.trying to work out what the North Korean Government is thinking from
:34:01. > :34:05.satellite pictures of Pyongyang. Knowledge of the brain and its
:34:06. > :34:11.functioning is incredibly limited. And growing very quickly. Well!
:34:12. > :34:15.Because we know so little that makes not much difference. The truth is
:34:16. > :34:20.that we do not have any causative proof. That is a point, isn't it? We
:34:21. > :34:25.might have a correlation between drinking and changes in the brain
:34:26. > :34:31.but as far as cause is concerned, it is very difficult to prove it. There
:34:32. > :34:38.is a correlation in damage. No doubt. Areas that control
:34:39. > :34:41.self-control. Everybody knows that. The area that. You drinking too much
:34:42. > :34:47.becomes damaged and then your ability to control your drinking may
:34:48. > :34:51.be compromised. Anybody who knows people that drink a lot will know
:34:52. > :34:56.they are damaged from it and anybody who has worked in Fleet Street this
:34:57. > :35:02.long has met people like that. I think there is a lot of rubbish
:35:03. > :35:06.talked about addictive disease and depression and alcoholism and so on.
:35:07. > :35:10.I think it is much more simple than that. Some of us have an addictive
:35:11. > :35:15.nature, I think. I am not entitled to talk about anybody else. I can
:35:16. > :35:19.just say two things. I have got one. I believe I was an addict since
:35:20. > :35:26.birth and I did not come to terms with it until I was 47, by which
:35:27. > :35:31.time I was in so much trouble. What were you addicted to? Right across
:35:32. > :35:39.the board. I have an addictive nature. My weight used to vary up
:35:40. > :35:45.and down. I worked with people dying of smoking related illnesses and I
:35:46. > :35:52.was addicted to cigarettes. What do you put this down to? You talk about
:35:53. > :35:55.an addictive nature but is it the case that some people are born with
:35:56. > :36:00.this addictive nature and they cannot do much to shift it? There
:36:01. > :36:07.are three causes, the antecedent cause, which I think is genetic. My
:36:08. > :36:13.mother died of alcoholism, my mother's father, my mother had an
:36:14. > :36:17.eating disorder, my wife and I kept this genetic pool ticking over by
:36:18. > :36:22.marrying and interbreeding. My son has problems and he has been very
:36:23. > :36:27.well trained for it. That is just my family. But I have looked after 5000
:36:28. > :36:32.inpatients, so I'm very familiar with the people's families and I
:36:33. > :36:36.have looked after them. Do you think addiction is a mental illness? A
:36:37. > :36:41.term like that conjures up so many other things that I am equally
:36:42. > :36:45.concerned about. I don't like definitions that bring in things
:36:46. > :36:51.like mental illness because it can be pejorative, it can be an abuse of
:36:52. > :36:54.statement. Can I raise a problem? The reason this is so important is
:36:55. > :36:59.because of the weight it causes us to treat the people that take
:37:00. > :37:02.illegal drugs. And also the way we treat people who destroy their
:37:03. > :37:07.families had ruined their own lives by drinking too much. Instead of
:37:08. > :37:10.saying in the case of the illegal drug takers, you are breaking the
:37:11. > :37:15.law and we will punish you for it, we indulge them and say they are
:37:16. > :37:18.suffering from a disease, then we rob them institutionally of the idea
:37:19. > :37:22.that they are responsible for their own actions. The same thing happens
:37:23. > :37:24.with people that drink too much. If we say it is a disease and you are
:37:25. > :37:34.not we say it is a disease and you are
:37:35. > :37:38.of responsibility. Human weakness we say it is a disease and you are
:37:39. > :37:41.weakness into a polysyllabic studio scientific
:37:42. > :37:45.wrong. I agree with you on so much and it is a pity that
:37:46. > :37:46.wrong. I agree with you on so much anything. I am totally responsible
:37:47. > :37:51.for my behaviour as anything. I am totally responsible
:37:52. > :37:54.affects other people. But you are suggesting you don't have control
:37:55. > :37:57.over your own behaviour. I don't have control. I have to find it. I
:37:58. > :38:03.was not born with it. And you have control. I have to find it. I
:38:04. > :38:08.to treat the symptoms sometimes. Like with people that overrate. I am
:38:09. > :38:13.sure there is York colleague, who says it less and
:38:14. > :38:17.sure there is York colleague, who all know that helps you lose weight,
:38:18. > :38:21.but in a programme I have been on that uses cognitive behavioural
:38:22. > :38:27.therapy we have to understand that shutting the cookie jar chin is not
:38:28. > :38:32.enough. With overweight children, there is a lot of pain. It is not
:38:33. > :38:38.enough to say don't eat too much, run more. Nobody says it is easy.
:38:39. > :38:46.But the way you talk about it makes it sound like we should just stop
:38:47. > :38:50.drinking. It is a question of whether it is a compulsion or not.
:38:51. > :38:55.The whole basis of the way that we treat these people is that it is a
:38:56. > :39:00.compulsion. If not, then the whole attitude of the legal system toward
:39:01. > :39:07.her and abuses would be wrong. But people will do very extreme things
:39:08. > :39:13.to get the substance. That is selfish and not compulsive. But how
:39:14. > :39:19.dependent are they on the substance? At some point on that continuum it
:39:20. > :39:23.is a compulsion and it is a disease. The world leader in brain scanning
:39:24. > :39:26.has done 100,000 of them in his clinics and I met him in California
:39:27. > :39:30.and I was very impressed with the work that he was doing, looking at
:39:31. > :39:39.the way that the brain is plastic. The changes. Especially with people
:39:40. > :39:43.that are younger. With teenagers, it can switch on changes in the genes,
:39:44. > :39:48.making them more likely to be addicted. Can I hear from the
:39:49. > :39:52.viewers because of people are getting in touch? Touch? Tommy?
:39:53. > :40:36.Tommy, you are getting criticism on Twitter at the moment.
:40:37. > :40:48.Can I carry on what I was saying? I totally agree with you, this is a
:40:49. > :40:55.very damaging drugs, cannabis. Can you say that again? Absolutely, very
:40:56. > :41:00.dangerous. It would be crazy to decriminalise it. Thank you for
:41:01. > :41:04.saying that. We will talk. I am sure you will after the programme. Thank
:41:05. > :41:09.you for your reactions at home. Keep them coming in.
:41:10. > :41:11.He's one of the greatest war photographers in history.
:41:12. > :41:13.Don McCullin has risked his life to take pictures
:41:14. > :41:16.in places like Vietnam, Cambodia, the Congo, Afghanistan and Lebanon
:41:17. > :41:18.and has covered disaster and famine around the world.
:41:19. > :41:20.His latest role saw him directing his gaze towards
:41:21. > :41:22.spirituality as a judge in an amateur photographic competition
:41:23. > :41:37.He told us why the competition was so important. The idea of
:41:38. > :41:41.encouraging people to understand the love and devotion of religion is
:41:42. > :41:45.much more important than trying to bully people into believing in a
:41:46. > :41:49.certain religion. This competition, in a way, is a kind of broad
:41:50. > :41:55.competition that gives voice to all religions. What comes out of it is
:41:56. > :42:01.different points of view. Visually. You don't need a statement. A
:42:02. > :42:05.photograph can really tell you 1000 words sometimes. When it came to
:42:06. > :42:10.picking out the winners, a tough job, I am sure. What were you
:42:11. > :42:14.looking for to pick the ones that you did? When you see the winning
:42:15. > :42:18.picture, unanimously you all know it have to be that one. In this
:42:19. > :42:24.particular case it is a picture of an old black lady who is obviously
:42:25. > :42:32.very close to death, being comforted by some religious person. It is in
:42:33. > :42:34.black and white and the atmosphere of it absolutely claws your
:42:35. > :42:39.imagination. The picture is full of touching love and tenderness. You
:42:40. > :42:44.know right away that it had to be the winning picture. Looking at the
:42:45. > :42:49.other finalists, we see a man teaching a young girl to read the
:42:50. > :42:52.Koran. Why did you like that? A perfect combination of teaching,
:42:53. > :42:56.trust and love. As an English man, that is the way I want to see the
:42:57. > :43:02.Koran and love. As an English man, that is the way I want to see the
:43:03. > :43:09.Koran it is women teaching. And normally it is young boys being
:43:10. > :43:12.taught by teachers in an Islamic context. That is what is unusual
:43:13. > :43:15.about this picture as well but it is a lovely, beautiful picture. It gave
:43:16. > :43:21.us comfort and warmth to look at it. And another finalist, this
:43:22. > :43:26.golden temple and a man bathing himself. This is a very spiritually
:43:27. > :43:31.moving picture because the man is alone in the water. You can see that
:43:32. > :43:37.nothing in the world means more to him than that privileged moment,
:43:38. > :43:42.that personal, privileged moment and you can see it in this photograph.
:43:43. > :43:47.Do you think the photographs that have made it into the final ten, and
:43:48. > :43:51.the winner, can help people change the way they think about those
:43:52. > :43:58.particular religions and religion in general? I thought religion was
:43:59. > :44:02.about devotion and respect and love. All I have seen is the kind of
:44:03. > :44:06.cruelty that sometimes religion, when it goes wrong... It doesn't go
:44:07. > :44:12.wrong. It is the people that observe it that go wrong. They go too far.
:44:13. > :44:17.This competition, in a way, is meant to probably cut out the political
:44:18. > :44:26.side of things and concentrate on the love. The idea of seeing various
:44:27. > :44:32.religions living in harmony in this country, and showing you images of
:44:33. > :44:40.the best side of it really, can only increase the chances of
:44:41. > :44:49.understanding. Don McCullin talking to Asad Ahmad.
:44:50. > :44:51."A bunch of corduroy-jacketed lefty academics".
:44:52. > :45:02.That's how the London Mayor and MP, Boris Johnson, describes those
:45:03. > :45:09.He was referring to a protest against Israeli policies
:45:10. > :45:11.which started more than a decade ago but has gathered
:45:12. > :45:15.In February, some British artists, including Roger Waters of Pink
:45:16. > :45:18.Floyd, and film director Ken Loach, signed a letter saying they'd
:45:19. > :45:21.decline invitations to go to Israel and any funding from institutions
:45:22. > :45:28.Recently, their sentiments were endorsed
:45:29. > :45:33.Well, last month a counter petition described this cultural boycott
:45:34. > :45:40.Among the signatories was author JK Rowling, who described how "the
:45:41. > :45:43.sharing of art and literature across borders constitutes an immense power
:45:44. > :45:49.So, are the arts powerful weapons of change,
:45:50. > :45:51.or does performing in countries whose policies you disagree with
:45:52. > :45:59.Our final question: Do cultural boycotts work?
:46:00. > :46:03.To discuss this we are joined by Professor Jonathan Rosenhead, Chair
:46:04. > :46:09.of the British Committee for the Universities of Palestine, Mojisola
:46:10. > :46:14.Adebayo, who is an actor, playwright and director, and Jonathan Shalit,
:46:15. > :46:36.And Peter cultural boycott of Israel? One of
:46:37. > :46:40.the best things about a boycott is to open up a dialogue, which says
:46:41. > :46:46.there's a bottom line, that the situation there is so appalling, so
:46:47. > :46:50.bad that all we can use is a very crude tool to say there's a point at
:46:51. > :46:56.which I'm not going tone gauge any more in that kind of way. But there
:46:57. > :47:00.are lots of other things we can do, which is what I'm about. It is
:47:01. > :47:01.counter intuitive for which is what I'm about. It is
:47:02. > :47:07.artist to say I'm not going to do. which is what I'm about. It is
:47:08. > :47:13.I'm more interested in what I am going to do. Do. I write plays and I
:47:14. > :47:18.still work in the Middle East and in Palestine and with Palestinians. But
:47:19. > :47:23.for me as an artist it is a choice about money, about what kind of
:47:24. > :47:26.cultural transaction I'm going to engage in. I want to take money from
:47:27. > :47:34.say the situation in Israel engage in. I want to take money from
:47:35. > :47:49.democracy in the Middle East. Israel engage in. I want to take money from
:47:50. > :47:56.security is its own business should be applauded. When you talk
:47:57. > :48:03.about a boycott, when George Bush was President
:48:04. > :48:05.about a boycott, when George Bush with him, why not
:48:06. > :48:08.about a boycott, when George Bush Culture, media and theatre
:48:09. > :48:12.about a boycott, when George Bush educate and entertain. If you
:48:13. > :48:15.withdraw that from a country you are punishing the wrong people. I'm not
:48:16. > :48:19.saying we shouldn't debate Israel, we should debate any country. But
:48:20. > :48:22.the Government doesn't represent even half of the country, so you are
:48:23. > :48:28.penalising even half of the country, so you are
:48:29. > :48:32.can't have access to world art. Jonathan, wherever you stand on the
:48:33. > :48:37.debate of Israel's policies, by having this boycott what you are
:48:38. > :48:41.effectively doing is preventing that free discussion, that open debate,
:48:42. > :48:45.and harming the very citizens that you would like to protect. I've had
:48:46. > :48:50.more discussion with you would like to protect. I've had
:48:51. > :48:55.academics since I started boycotting them than before. It is just that I
:48:56. > :48:59.don't do business as usual. I don't do joint research grants with them
:49:00. > :49:02.and pretend there is not a problem with Israel. I talk to them about
:49:03. > :49:06.the politics of Israel. They now want to talk to me because they know
:49:07. > :49:14.I'm involved in a campaign that criticised them. If you want
:49:15. > :49:18.dialogue boycotts are a good way of provoking one. It is a lovely
:49:19. > :49:23.paradox buts not really the point, is it? The point is, what are the
:49:24. > :49:29.boycotters aiming to achieve? I would guess it is to turn Israel
:49:30. > :49:33.into a pariah state, much as apartheid South Africa was, so that
:49:34. > :49:37.they can undermine its legitimacy and eventually remove it from the
:49:38. > :49:41.map, which tends to be the view of quite a lot of supposedly
:49:42. > :49:47.progressive people in the western world these days. That doesn't seem
:49:48. > :49:52.a laudable objective or a wide one. But didn't that work? It did work,
:49:53. > :49:56.but that's what's makes it so important. If these things weren't
:49:57. > :50:00.important, why discuss them? What worries me particularly about them
:50:01. > :50:05.and the weakest argument of the boycott serious the selective nature
:50:06. > :50:09.of this. There are plenty of countries, China prominent among
:50:10. > :50:14.them, which behave extremely badly to their population and neighbours,
:50:15. > :50:19.who aren't boycotted by the same people. What interests me is why
:50:20. > :50:23.there is this strong selective desire to punish Israel of all
:50:24. > :50:26.countries rather than any others? I would like to ask you why. It is
:50:27. > :50:31.interesting what you are saying about China. I also don't work for
:50:32. > :50:35.the Chinese state. I've been invited many times to work on projects that
:50:36. > :50:41.are funded by the Chinese state. I also choose not to do that. Did you
:50:42. > :50:46.organise a boycott in China? I don't, and I didn't organise this
:50:47. > :50:51.boycott, but I got an e-mail. For me it is a personal decision, in that I
:50:52. > :50:57.began my own boycott from when I started working there. I was first
:50:58. > :51:02.invited to work in Israel in 1999 and I worked in Nazareth with Arab
:51:03. > :51:08.Israelis, Palestinian Israelis, and was invited to work in the West Bank
:51:09. > :51:14.with a theatre company alled Ashtar. I've been working there on and off
:51:15. > :51:19.for the last 15 years and the situation has got progressively
:51:20. > :51:24.worse, and particularly artists. But you are not answering the question,
:51:25. > :51:30.the selective nature of this. The people are trying to make theatre,
:51:31. > :51:36.make art. The irony is one of the act north-west my plays, because she
:51:37. > :51:46.was born in Bethlehem it is easier for her to work in London. Can you
:51:47. > :51:50.answer this? My play, I can't have my play performed because of this
:51:51. > :51:58.Two points I made, first the reason for the difficulty in getting for
:51:59. > :52:04.Bethlehem to Jerusalem is Israel is trying to protect itself against a
:52:05. > :52:08.level of terrorism which we in this country would find unbearable.
:52:09. > :52:14.Secondly you haven't addressed my point why Israel as against so many
:52:15. > :52:18.other countries, in many cases far worse this their records...
:52:19. > :52:23.Jonathan's point about it being a democracy. Why target a democracy?
:52:24. > :52:28.Why not go elsewhere? Because the Palestinian Authority is also a
:52:29. > :52:35.democracy. But there are Palestinians and Arabs in the
:52:36. > :52:40.Israeli Parliament. In Israel, homosexuals, lesbians and gays are
:52:41. > :52:44.immersed in society. On China, the more art that goes to China the more
:52:45. > :52:50.people in China understand what they haven't got. So you are saying don't
:52:51. > :52:59.boycott but change the argument from within? Paul McCartney, Rihanna, the
:53:00. > :53:04.rolling stones, they've all gone to Israel to perform. The point I'm
:53:05. > :53:09.making is people not going are being naive. The truth of the matter is if
:53:10. > :53:13.you don't embrace countries you disagree with, you can't move
:53:14. > :53:17.forward. It goes back to that point about dialogue, about art and
:53:18. > :53:22.culture having a profound influence. Surely you can use that for your
:53:23. > :53:26.purposes by continuing that. A couple of points need to be picked
:53:27. > :53:31.up on. The reason why actors can't go from Bethlehem to Jerusalem is
:53:32. > :53:34.because Israel is trying to exclude all Palestinians from Jerusalem,
:53:35. > :53:38.knocking down their homes and moving them to settlements. It is not
:53:39. > :53:42.security. That isn't true. That point about changing from within and
:53:43. > :53:46.academics and artists having the power to change from within rather
:53:47. > :53:49.than withholding their labour, isn't that a more powerful one?
:53:50. > :53:53.Absolutely. It is because of the power of the culture that the
:53:54. > :53:58.cultural boycott is an important element in this debate. It is not
:53:59. > :54:01.reasonable to say you can't boycott Israel because you are not
:54:02. > :54:11.boycotting every other country this the world. But a Israel is open to
:54:12. > :54:14.us on its culture and academic lines is open to the pressure of boycott.
:54:15. > :54:20.Boycott isn't a moral obligation it is a tactic you can use. Use. ... It
:54:21. > :54:26.is far less effective against iron dictatorships is such as China,
:54:27. > :54:32.that's true, but it would be more urgent to boycott an iron
:54:33. > :55:05.dictatorship than a law-abiding country.
:55:06. > :55:15.A point that you were making, Peter, but I want to pick up with you about
:55:16. > :55:21.the point, is it something that's peaceful or sit posturing? What
:55:22. > :55:25.difference have cultural wickets made since theyer started a decade
:55:26. > :55:30.ago? It is not just a decade ago. You mentioned South Africa. It was
:55:31. > :55:34.really powerful. Can you imagine if Elvis had marched with Martin Luther
:55:35. > :55:39.King, what difference that might have made? If Elvis had said, I'm
:55:40. > :55:44.not playing until the black man is free. What difference might that
:55:45. > :55:54.have made. It is not about violence, it is peace. Israel is not like
:55:55. > :55:57.segregation Alabama. In Israel you have Palestinians in Government but
:55:58. > :55:59.you also have Palestinians trying to kill innocent people. Thank you so
:56:00. > :56:01.much to all of you. That's all we have time for today,
:56:02. > :56:05.thanks to my guests and to you In the light of the attacks in
:56:06. > :56:09.Paris, we thought we'd finish today with a song that brought great
:56:10. > :56:12.comfort to another city that was It's the anthem of Liverpool
:56:13. > :56:17.Football Club and was sung after And its words echo David Cameron's
:56:18. > :56:21.sentiment to France that "we stand Here are The Priests,
:56:22. > :56:28.with 'You'll Never Walk Alone'. # And the sweet silver song
:56:29. > :57:11.of a lark # Tho' your dreams be tossed
:57:12. > :57:29.and blown # Walk on, walk on,
:57:30. > :57:39.with hope in your heart