:00:11. > :00:15.Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. On today's programme, it has been a
:00:16. > :00:18.lovely one weekend and thousands of us have been heading to the beach
:00:19. > :00:22.but if you were in France and you turned up to paddle in one of these,
:00:23. > :00:26.a burkini, you might have been in trouble. Does what women wear on the
:00:27. > :00:30.beach pose a threat to public safety? Damage to Timbuktu's
:00:31. > :00:33.treasured monuments has been declared a war crime but should the
:00:34. > :00:39.destruction of cultural sites be treated the same as genocide? Never
:00:40. > :00:43.in all my life did I know there was such suffering in the world as I
:00:44. > :00:48.have seen here. A new film is released in tribute to the life of
:00:49. > :00:52.Mother Teresa one week before she is due to be canonised by the Pope. We
:00:53. > :00:57.ask, is it too easy to become a saint? And BBC presenter Nick
:00:58. > :01:02.Robinson tells Hardeep Singh Kohli what it was like when he became a
:01:03. > :01:06.political story. I had often been attacked but never had I had a
:01:07. > :01:21.banner this big with my photograph on it, with the work, -- with the
:01:22. > :01:26.word, nick of the liar Robinson. Our panellists earring to go. Tommy is
:01:27. > :01:31.ready to share all of your thoughts with us. Good morning. It is really
:01:32. > :01:35.important that you get in touch. We want to hear from you and you can
:01:36. > :01:42.contact us through our Facebook page or Twitter. If you are tweeting,
:01:43. > :01:49.don't forget to use our hashtag: Or call us on our number: Standard
:01:50. > :01:54.charges from landlines and mobiles apply.
:01:55. > :01:59.Text us if you have your mobile handy:
:02:00. > :02:00.Or email us at sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk.
:02:01. > :02:07.And if you do get in touch, please don't forget to include your name.
:02:08. > :02:15.Let's meet our guests this week. Deborah Orr is a political and
:02:16. > :02:20.social commentator and Guardian columnist. Tim Stanley is a writer
:02:21. > :02:25.for the Telegraph and Catholic Herald. Kate Williams is an author,
:02:26. > :02:29.historian and broadcaster. And finally to paint is the ticket of
:02:30. > :02:35.director of the muscle women's network UK. -- Muslim women's
:02:36. > :02:39.network. Perhaps you wouldn't have thought that what women wear to the
:02:40. > :02:45.beach would become an international story. That is what is happening in
:02:46. > :02:51.France at the moment after a string of towns banned the wearing of the
:02:52. > :02:55.burkini. The recent is that it is beach where that ostentatiously
:02:56. > :02:58.displays religious affiliation. On Friday, however, a court suspended
:02:59. > :03:04.the burkini ban in one bands and other places dropped it, too.
:03:05. > :03:09.Somehow kept it. Meanwhile, Nicolas Sarkozy says that the ban should be
:03:10. > :03:14.throughout France. Tommy took a trip to Brighton beach to see what people
:03:15. > :03:16.there think. What a beautiful summer stay. But
:03:17. > :03:21.just across the channel a political row has erupted over the burkini
:03:22. > :03:28.ban. Women are being prohibited from wearing this on French beaches. But
:03:29. > :03:33.how would the people operating field of something similar was to come
:03:34. > :03:40.into force Reggie? It is ridiculous that people are trying to ban people
:03:41. > :03:44.from covering the body. -- into force right here. I don't think it
:03:45. > :03:46.is comfortable on the beach. It is freedom of expression and that is
:03:47. > :03:51.what we end other nations are built on. How would you feel if you saw
:03:52. > :04:01.somebody wearing this on the beach? I would say, you look hot. If you do
:04:02. > :04:05.not look comfortable without a T-shirt, I will not wear a T-shirt.
:04:06. > :04:11.I want it banned because they are coming to the beach and they may be
:04:12. > :04:16.offended by people in bikinis. Then don't come to the beach. My dad
:04:17. > :04:19.lives in Bahrain and I do not wear it out there. I think it is there
:04:20. > :04:24.enough that they should have the right to wear it here. It is
:04:25. > :04:34.individual freedom. Like now, I can swim perfectly with my scarf and my
:04:35. > :04:37.hijab. We live in a free society and we are free to make our own choices.
:04:38. > :04:44.She might get offended by what I am wearing! Can you not understand that
:04:45. > :04:48.people were killed on Bastille Day and people are quite concerned when
:04:49. > :04:52.they see somebody in a perk up. It is nothing to do with the muscle
:04:53. > :04:58.religion at all. It is these specific people. It is ridiculous.
:04:59. > :05:04.Terrorists can look like anybody. It can be anybody. I do not understand
:05:05. > :05:10.it, sorry. This is my face, I can speak and do anything. I am not
:05:11. > :05:18.hiding, I am following my religion. And I do not disturb others because
:05:19. > :05:21.I am not doing anything wrong. Tommy, sampling opinion in Brighton.
:05:22. > :05:27.Let's see what our guests think this morning. Is it right to ban the
:05:28. > :05:31.burkini? Tim, Nicolas Sarkozy called the burkini a provocation. Is that
:05:32. > :05:38.true? Certainly not for the people wearing out. That is something that
:05:39. > :05:44.is misunderstood. It is all -- it is not about covering completely. If
:05:45. > :05:47.you ban it, you undermine integration because those people
:05:48. > :05:53.will not be able to go to the beach. But let's be realistic. I am against
:05:54. > :05:56.the ban and it is impractical. I am a religious conservative and I wish
:05:57. > :06:01.that people would dress more modestly although I would not force
:06:02. > :06:04.them to. Let's be realistic. We do police the way that people dress. If
:06:05. > :06:09.somebody went on to that beach completely nude, some people would
:06:10. > :06:13.feel uncomfortable. Secondly, the assault on the burkini takes place
:06:14. > :06:18.in a context that France feels, wrongly, that it is losing the war
:06:19. > :06:25.on terror. Over a month ago, 86 people were killed in Nice by a
:06:26. > :06:27.fanatic. If they are losing the military war, they are looking to
:06:28. > :06:33.win it existentially by reasserting what Frenchness is. And for them
:06:34. > :06:37.Frenchness is secular, and about showing off your body. There is a
:06:38. > :06:41.reason why so often figures of liberty and the liberal goddess in
:06:42. > :06:45.French liberty are presented as topless. They are trying to reassert
:06:46. > :06:50.Frenchness. I am against the ban but we should be realistic and recognise
:06:51. > :06:54.the context and background to it. Tim touched upon this briefly but
:06:55. > :07:00.how does the burkini differ from the burqa? The core difference is that a
:07:01. > :07:07.burqa is usually a face covering this not. This is a wet suit with a
:07:08. > :07:12.hood. We need to remember that yes that might be true in context, where
:07:13. > :07:19.globally we are fighting a context of extremism, but we do not fight
:07:20. > :07:24.extremism by saying to a woman, you are not allowed to wear a particular
:07:25. > :07:28.type of dress. I find the French approach to be extreme. I think it
:07:29. > :07:32.is secular extremism. Nicolas Sarkozy saying this needs to be a
:07:33. > :07:38.national ban, I find that a warrant and I think someone in Europe should
:07:39. > :07:43.not be seeing this. Europeans, we have certain values that we need to
:07:44. > :07:45.adhere to and freedom of religion and freedom of expression are?
:07:46. > :07:56.Valspar use which I take really seriously. I do not think that
:07:57. > :08:03.singling out a particular group is the way to tackle extremism.
:08:04. > :08:10.Obviously it is incredible destructive to go around trying to
:08:11. > :08:14.police what people wear. The sign of -- the site of armed men on a beach
:08:15. > :08:17.demanding that a woman Arms should not be happening anywhere in the
:08:18. > :08:22.world, not in Europe either. When secular liberals reduce the issue to
:08:23. > :08:29.just being about women's choice and women's bodies, they are
:08:30. > :08:35.oversimplifying something that is paradoxical, which is that in the
:08:36. > :08:39.West you have religiously prescribed clothing which says that women need
:08:40. > :08:48.to hide their bodies. In order to go out in public. You are dissed ending
:08:49. > :08:55.something that is absolutely the opposite of what you think you are
:08:56. > :09:05.defending. So you are saying that this is adopting religious clothing
:09:06. > :09:09.is a choice of religious freedom and it is simply not. I think we need to
:09:10. > :09:13.listen to the voices of women themselves. Very few Muslim women
:09:14. > :09:17.will say that they wear the headscarf because they were told to.
:09:18. > :09:20.Most of them they will say that they have chosen to win it for a number
:09:21. > :09:24.of reasons and these vary. So I think that we should listen to
:09:25. > :09:28.women's voices instead of other people speaking for them, men or
:09:29. > :09:32.not. And the word provocation is disturbing here because I think we
:09:33. > :09:38.have just about managed to get away from the idea that what women wear
:09:39. > :09:43.is a provocation to men, that it matters what women wear. And here we
:09:44. > :09:48.are being told that a woman who wears a certain form of swimwear is
:09:49. > :09:52.provoking. This is a cheap shot and it is ahead of the elections next
:09:53. > :09:59.year in which the people are trying to appeal to a certain level of
:10:00. > :10:06.racism, it is a cheap shot against immigration. Sometimes we have seen
:10:07. > :10:10.works in political context. -- sometimes we have seen it work. It
:10:11. > :10:19.is simply a logical, though, because we know that a habit is fine for a
:10:20. > :10:22.none, and many people wear a burkini not for religious reasons. In
:10:23. > :10:28.Australia they wear it for skincare. So you think you can separate it
:10:29. > :10:32.from religion? Yes. There are questions in France that politicians
:10:33. > :10:35.need to engage in, about security and freedom of speech but it is
:10:36. > :10:40.being reduced to whether or not people wear a certain type of skin
:10:41. > :10:45.where. And I have to say, as a very pale person, I tend to wear that
:10:46. > :10:51.kind of thing to the beach anyway. The French report agrees with you.
:10:52. > :10:54.That is significant. When politicians in the West go too far
:10:55. > :10:58.and say dumb things, we tend to denounce the whole of western
:10:59. > :11:02.society and Western liberalism, saying that we are edging towards
:11:03. > :11:06.tyranny because of one populist moron. But the reality is that
:11:07. > :11:09.Western society remains liberal and comparatively free and we should
:11:10. > :11:13.remember that in the context of other societies that are not so
:11:14. > :11:17.free. This debate in Saudi Arabia is on a different level.
:11:18. > :11:21.I want to bring this back to France because there were figures this week
:11:22. > :11:25.from the French newspaper as saying that 60 for percent of French people
:11:26. > :11:34.are in favour of the ban on the burkini. It reflects that there is a
:11:35. > :11:38.significant number of people who are uncomfortable, who feel alienate it
:11:39. > :11:41.by this style of dress. How do you address that? That is the issue
:11:42. > :11:49.because it says to me that people in France are feeling very insecure and
:11:50. > :11:54.fearful right now of the wider attacks they are facing,
:11:55. > :11:59.particularly following the terrorism attacks in Nice not long ago. We
:12:00. > :12:03.need to be working on why the policies -- wider policies of
:12:04. > :12:05.cohesion but this type of band goes against those policies because it
:12:06. > :12:11.further isolate the communities and it takes them away from a cohesive
:12:12. > :12:20.model. -- this type of Ann. Your thoughts on isolating communities? I
:12:21. > :12:23.think that the French want to ban the burkini because they feel
:12:24. > :12:29.powerless in other respects. And that is why it is not just about
:12:30. > :12:36.what women wear. It is about a wider context where the French are afraid
:12:37. > :12:40.of Islamic terrorism. A man did not plough in a lorry through a crowd of
:12:41. > :12:48.people in order to make it easier for women to wear burkinis. In the
:12:49. > :12:51.end, it is Muslim extremism that is stalking this problem and stalking
:12:52. > :12:54.this hatred and we have to ask ourselves, why would a Muslim
:12:55. > :12:59.extremism want to make it more difficult for muscle of women in
:13:00. > :13:03.France, and make Muslim women in France have to deal with 60 for
:13:04. > :13:11.percent of people wanting their clothes replaced? And it is because
:13:12. > :13:15.they want to damage and humiliate liberal secularism, and by banning,
:13:16. > :13:19.the French are playing into their hands, and also by saying it is not
:13:20. > :13:25.about religious fundamentalism at all, it is just about women's
:13:26. > :13:31.choices, that is also avoiding the issue. And the issue is that on the
:13:32. > :13:38.extremes, people are stalking division and hatred in the West in
:13:39. > :13:42.order to complete their own very dangerous and nasty agenda. I think
:13:43. > :13:45.we need to be clear that there are certainly a number of
:13:46. > :13:47.interpretations. The muscle and community is not homogenous, we are
:13:48. > :13:53.a diverse community with different backgrounds and different approaches
:13:54. > :13:57.to religion. But that does not mean that the extremes speak for the
:13:58. > :14:04.majority. I think we need to remember that. You are right that
:14:05. > :14:10.this particular type of band feeds into the rhetoric that Islamic State
:14:11. > :14:13.are pushing. -- this type of ban. Kate, Tommy went to Brighton to
:14:14. > :14:20.gauge opinion and most of the opinion is live and let live, where
:14:21. > :14:25.what you want. Do you think that if we had experienced what happened in
:14:26. > :14:32.Nice, our attitudes would have changed? Certainly, in France my
:14:33. > :14:35.concern is that the more they criticise them, the more they dig in
:14:36. > :14:39.their heels. I have seen criticism on Fox news where people think it is
:14:40. > :14:44.going too far. And that can be very extreme on this kind of subject. I
:14:45. > :14:49.think this is a very different country at the moment. Because we
:14:50. > :14:53.have not gone through the terror, as Debra was saying, that French people
:14:54. > :14:58.are going through, and the fear that they feel, whether they blame us is
:14:59. > :15:04.or not, they feel under attack. I think we do accept that 99.9% of
:15:05. > :15:08.Muslims in Britain, and across the world, want to live in peace and
:15:09. > :15:12.harmony and there are few people who engage in terrorism. And when we
:15:13. > :15:18.look at terrorist profiles, they tend to have histories of petty
:15:19. > :15:22.crime or psychological disturbance. These cannot be associated with the
:15:23. > :15:25.peace-loving Muslims who give so much to this country, who give so
:15:26. > :15:31.much to our institutions and the NHS. I think the burkini ban is
:15:32. > :15:35.never going to happen here. In France, it is going to be seen as a
:15:36. > :15:38.mistake because already this is not the kind of criticism that France is
:15:39. > :15:42.wanting. This is not the image they want to project to the world,
:15:43. > :15:45.particularly of their beaches. Because they see themselves as a
:15:46. > :15:50.place of freedom and liberty and this is not what is going on here.
:15:51. > :15:56.The French define liberty in a different way to we do. We in this
:15:57. > :16:03.country, the people on the beach in Brighton, say you should be free to
:16:04. > :16:09.do whatever you like. Like. This is the only part of the world where
:16:10. > :16:12.people see liberty in that way, but France doesn't. They feel sometimes
:16:13. > :16:18.you have to compel people to be free, so a lot of religious
:16:19. > :16:25.symbolism is already banned. That's common. The same in Mexico. In
:16:26. > :16:29.Russia they are trying to force Russian identity on its population.
:16:30. > :16:33.We tend to feel that anyone should be able to do whatever they like,
:16:34. > :16:39.but we are part of a shrinking group of countries that feel that way. I
:16:40. > :16:43.would say if French secularism says research should be kept apart of
:16:44. > :16:46.state matters, why are the state enforcing a dress code on religious
:16:47. > :16:52.dress? If the approach you want to take is keep religion out of all
:16:53. > :16:58.state rulings, then do that, but don't put on these bans which are
:16:59. > :17:01.ludicrous, in my mind. I think Britain is different. I think it's
:17:02. > :17:05.great that it is different. We have to remember we did have the 7/7
:17:06. > :17:10.bombings in Britain and our response years later is not the same as the
:17:11. > :17:15.French response. And that's credit, but we do have issues in Britain
:17:16. > :17:19.too. Let's not pretend that we are perfect either. But I definitely
:17:20. > :17:24.think that the people in Brighton spoke quite clearly. Deborah, you
:17:25. > :17:27.mentioned the picture earlier which we showed. Many people are
:17:28. > :17:34.discussing whether or not this is a set-up of a picture and what this
:17:35. > :17:37.picture actually does in some ways enforcing IS's message, Islamic
:17:38. > :17:46.State's message, because it works almost as propaganda on that side.
:17:47. > :17:52.Well, we do know a suspiciously small amount. Most people nowadays
:17:53. > :17:56.had that happened to them on a beach would be on social media saying,
:17:57. > :18:00.what on earth has just happened to me? And you would know about it, so
:18:01. > :18:05.it is a little bit suspicious. But at the same time I think that one
:18:06. > :18:15.important point has to be made about this whole burkini issue is that
:18:16. > :18:25.you've got an enormous back story of global clashes and violence and
:18:26. > :18:32.idealogical breaks and arguments. And it's all falling on individual
:18:33. > :18:39.women and their bodies. And somehow these huge historical and
:18:40. > :18:45.geopolitical clashes are being acted out on women, on the beach. You have
:18:46. > :18:54.to say to yourself, how can we let this happen? How can we not protect
:18:55. > :18:57.individual women trying to live their lives from these huge,
:18:58. > :19:03.terrible problems that are occurring. And part of the reason
:19:04. > :19:09.why I don't like conservative Islam is that it seems very women-blaming,
:19:10. > :19:15.and that is becoming bigger and bigger and bigger and moving out
:19:16. > :19:23.into western countries that are only just beginning to address these
:19:24. > :19:26.issues themselves. I'm sorry to interrupt, but IS, that photo isn't
:19:27. > :19:31.just about the woman on the beach being policed by the men. They also
:19:32. > :19:35.want people to look at the women semi naked around the women. Let's
:19:36. > :19:47.not forget that's really what the Islamic State hates, not the
:19:48. > :19:50.policing of women in the West. We make mistakes but my goodness it
:19:51. > :19:55.doesn't compare to the policing of women that goes on in other
:19:56. > :19:59.countries. You've been spending your texts and tweets on this. This.
:20:00. > :20:04.Tommy, you've been gathering reaction. A lot of people talking
:20:05. > :20:08.about what the laws of the land are. People agreeing people should have
:20:09. > :20:13.the right to wear what they want. Want. Bill says I don't see a
:20:14. > :20:17.problem with the burkini, it is no different to a wet suit and
:20:18. > :20:22.shouldn't be banned. Jenny says, I'm a Christian and I think all women
:20:23. > :20:29.and men should be able to wear the swim wear of their choice. Jeff says
:20:30. > :20:35.it is not so long ago Victorian women wore similar clothing to
:20:36. > :20:40.protect their modesty. Julie says if they want to ban it, live in a
:20:41. > :20:48.western country, not the western world. Sally says if we non-Muslims
:20:49. > :20:53.go to a Muslim country we have to cover up. Is it a law to uncover
:20:54. > :21:02.yourself in Great Britain? It is not our law is it? I would worry if it
:21:03. > :21:08.was. It is true you can go on the beach in jeans, jumper and a hat if
:21:09. > :21:12.you want to. The lady on the beach was saying her father lived in
:21:13. > :21:16.Bahrain I think and she wore what she liked in Bahrain and in Dubai as
:21:17. > :21:22.well. I find it strange to say that we have to cover up there, so you
:21:23. > :21:27.can't do what you want here. Sally made the point that it is respect on
:21:28. > :21:30.both sides. If you go to one country you respect its cultural
:21:31. > :21:36.differences, and if you come here you should expect the rich cal
:21:37. > :21:41.differences as well. Well. It would be awkward I imagine, Faezza, to
:21:42. > :21:46.take your clothes off to respect cultural differences to someone who
:21:47. > :21:50.has chosen to cover up. A lot of those countries will pretend to be
:21:51. > :21:52.liberal. We are in Britain, where freedom of choice is really
:21:53. > :21:59.important. That's something we should be proud of. We shouldn't
:22:00. > :22:05.have this tit for tat argument about if we are told something in this
:22:06. > :22:10.country we should have the same human rights. It is important in
:22:11. > :22:15.this country, while you are absolutely in defence of women
:22:16. > :22:19.wearing what they like, even if it is bibs over their face which is
:22:20. > :22:27.they have to flick up to eat, which I've seen in Selfridges while the
:22:28. > :22:30.males in the family are dressed in western clothes which Selfridges
:22:31. > :22:34.sells. Why it is right to support women who want to make that
:22:35. > :22:38.prescribed religious choice, it is also important to be able to say, I
:22:39. > :22:43.don't like it, and say I don't like that. I don't like seeing women
:22:44. > :22:48.completely shrouded and covered walking around the streets. I don't
:22:49. > :22:53.like the idea that it is immodest to show your leg. But there's a
:22:54. > :22:59.difference in saying I don't like it and banning it. Absolutely. I'm
:23:00. > :23:01.completely against banning and I'm completely against being pilloried
:23:02. > :23:08.for saying, I really don't like these things. That's a fair point.
:23:09. > :23:13.But I think women's clothes are policed throughout society. It was
:23:14. > :23:18.only a couple of months ago I believe a woman was sent home from a
:23:19. > :23:22.job for wearing flat shoes. We are expected to wear high heels and
:23:23. > :23:31.make-up frequently in the business world and to dress a southern way.
:23:32. > :23:39.There are scholarships saying, making a comparison between the
:23:40. > :23:42.veil, hair and make-up. Visions of what is a woman, whether in terms of
:23:43. > :23:49.covering up, or in terms of undressing. We though that there are
:23:50. > :23:53.a lot of women who are supported and congratulated for taking clothes
:23:54. > :23:59.off. It is not necessarily a free choice for what women wear. Thank
:24:00. > :24:03.you very much. We could talk about this a lot longer but we've got a
:24:04. > :24:08.lot more to talk about. Thank you for your comments. Still to come on
:24:09. > :24:12.Sunday Morning Live, should destroying historic buildings like
:24:13. > :24:18.this one be treated the same as a war crime? BBC presenter Nick
:24:19. > :24:25.Robinson has been a political editor and is now a ringmaster on the
:24:26. > :24:29.battleground of movers and shakers on Radio 4's Today programme. He
:24:30. > :24:32.isn't afraid of a scrap. But when confronted with cancer last year it
:24:33. > :24:35.was a challenge on a different scale. Hardeep Singh Kohli has been
:24:36. > :24:42.talking to Nick about that time and the past that shaped his future.
:24:43. > :24:50.You're listening to Today on BBC Radio 4 with John Humphrys and Nick
:24:51. > :24:52.Robinson. Nick, when you are grilling incredibly powerful people,
:24:53. > :24:56.what are you thinking when asking those questions? I am always
:24:57. > :25:00.thinking, what would I want this person to be asked if I were at home
:25:01. > :25:03.listening or watching? What's the question that needs to be asked? And
:25:04. > :25:10.that maybe they don't necessarily want to give a clear answer to. What
:25:11. > :25:14.happened to all those Bulgarians and Romanians taking people's jobs? We
:25:15. > :25:19.don't know. You don't know? We don't know at all. You are used to
:25:20. > :25:25.ruffling feathers but you became a big of a target in the Scottish
:25:26. > :25:30.referendum where some accused you of bias. That was pretty uncomfortable,
:25:31. > :25:35.I had often been attacked by never before had I had a photograph this
:25:36. > :25:41.big with Nick the Liar Robinson written on it. It was a really
:25:42. > :25:46.uncomfortable place to be. I'm not saying the BBC couldn't get it more
:25:47. > :25:49.right than it did. And I did make some mistakes, but overall can
:25:50. > :25:53.people report that referendum doing their best to ask the questions of
:25:54. > :25:57.all sides that needed to be asked? I think yes they did. On a more
:25:58. > :26:01.personal note there've been other great challenges in your life. When
:26:02. > :26:05.you were 18 you were involved in a tragic car accident. Can you talk me
:26:06. > :26:11.through exactly what happened there? It was post A-levels. I had planned
:26:12. > :26:24.to go on a big trip, as lots of kids do as lots of kids do after their
:26:25. > :26:31.A-levels. We planned to go in a little Beetle with our trip to
:26:32. > :26:34.travel around Europe. Sadly we had a big head-on collision near Calais.
:26:35. > :26:39.The car caught fire. I was the lucky one, because I was stuck in the back
:26:40. > :26:44.of the car. My two friends in the front didn't make it, they died. I
:26:45. > :26:48.was in the back, unable, it seemed to me, to get out of the car, but I
:26:49. > :26:52.did. You carry the scars and the burns from that day. Not that one
:26:53. > :26:56.can ever make up for the loss of those friends and the trauma you
:26:57. > :27:00.suffered, but there was a phoenix that Rose from the flames of that
:27:01. > :27:04.yellow Beetle. You just look forward when you are that age. Maybe it is
:27:05. > :27:09.partly in my personality. Not that there are frankly many weeks where I
:27:10. > :27:14.don't still think about my friends, but there are moments where you just
:27:15. > :27:18.think, now what do I do? I suddenly had a year off, unplanned. I
:27:19. > :27:21.couldn't travel the world. I couldn't travel anywhere really,
:27:22. > :27:25.because I had regular hospital appointments, but I did write to my
:27:26. > :27:33.local radio stations in Manchester and said, how about a job. Last year
:27:34. > :27:36.as BBC's political editor, the general election, you found out you
:27:37. > :27:42.had cancer. That must have been a massive blow. Of course. You think,
:27:43. > :27:48.my God! What now? What am I going to do? And I had the added complication
:27:49. > :27:51.that dealing with the cancer was general election, you found out you
:27:52. > :27:54.had cancer. That must have been a massive blow. Of course. You think,
:27:55. > :27:55.my God! What now? What am I going to do? And I had the added complication
:27:56. > :28:05.that Far from getting in back to work in
:28:06. > :28:11.a matter of weeks it took many months to get some of my voice back.
:28:12. > :28:14.Thank you, sorry about the croaky voice. It is still recovering after
:28:15. > :28:18.an operation. There is part of you that's a private person which we
:28:19. > :28:23.don't see. I wonder where Nick Robinson went to find that strength.
:28:24. > :28:27.Partly I went back to being 18. I kept thinking, hold on, I because in
:28:28. > :28:33.a fatal car crash, I lost two of my friends in this car crash. There was
:28:34. > :28:39.a time in which it wasn't clear that I wassen a, that I would make it. I
:28:40. > :28:44.was a on a ventilator to breathe for a week. Part of me thought, focus on
:28:45. > :28:49.what you do know, don't obsess with what you don't. In our darkest times
:28:50. > :28:53.and most trying of experiences we often revert to our up bringing. Was
:28:54. > :28:58.there much faith around when you were growing up? There wasn't, in
:28:59. > :29:03.truth. My father was a classic COE, it was the label as to who he was,
:29:04. > :29:08.but he almost never went beyond Christmas and Easter. My mother was
:29:09. > :29:13.the child of German Jewish refugees, so I was fascinated by my Jewish
:29:14. > :29:19.background. In a cultural and political way. I once read a
:29:20. > :29:22.biography of Isaiah Berlin, the philosopher, who said he
:29:23. > :29:28.enindividual people with faith. That's always been my position. I
:29:29. > :29:32.haven't got it, but far from being contemptuous of people with faith, I
:29:33. > :29:40.slightly envy them. You are a member of a club called the Survivors Club.
:29:41. > :29:43.My colleague and friend Frank Gardner, the extraordinary security
:29:44. > :29:47.correspondent shot in the back in Saudi Arabia, joked to me one day we
:29:48. > :29:53.should have a survivors club, those of us who've got through. Andrew
:29:54. > :29:57.Marr had a terrible stroke. George Alagiah had very bad cans Kerr. I
:29:58. > :30:01.wrote in a diary piece in the Spectator, not really thinking we
:30:02. > :30:07.would ever do it, and Frank said we had better have this meeting once a
:30:08. > :30:11.month. We then had a meal in a restaurant intending to be private.
:30:12. > :30:16.Frank had the waiter take a picture, and said, can I put it on Twitter, I
:30:17. > :30:19.copied it and it was the most extraordinary phenomenon. If you are
:30:20. > :30:25.on Facebook and you get things that are liked. This was like watching
:30:26. > :30:29.the dial on a petrol pump. It just went viral. It is a good news
:30:30. > :30:34.picture. Four guys who had a tough time and made it. You moved recently
:30:35. > :30:38.from your role as BBC political editor straight into the relative
:30:39. > :30:42.comfort of the Today programme studios, but it is a beautiful full
:30:43. > :30:48.circumstance until a sense. Why is it a full circle? Well, my friend
:30:49. > :30:52.Will, the boy who my son is named after who died in that car crash,
:30:53. > :30:58.his dad was presenter of the Today programme. His dad was a man called
:30:59. > :31:01.Brian redhead and I now do Brian's old job. It is the job I always
:31:02. > :31:11.wanted. In a time but if the tables were
:31:12. > :31:19.turned, which MP would make you the most nervous if you got interviewed
:31:20. > :31:24.by them? Probably Alex Salmond. He is incredibly bright and sharp. And
:31:25. > :31:27.he might have the motive for asking the difficult question. That would
:31:28. > :31:33.be an interesting one. It would be very interesting. Nick Robinson back
:31:34. > :31:46.on top form. Timbuktu has a fabled name and a fabulous past. When
:31:47. > :31:52.Islamic State took over at the town months ago, various relics were
:31:53. > :31:56.destroyed. The leader of the rebels was this week brought to trial at
:31:57. > :31:59.the International Criminal Court, charged with cultural disruption. It
:32:00. > :32:07.is the first time such an offence has been tried as a war crime. He
:32:08. > :32:11.pleaded guilty and was told he would face a long period in prison. Do you
:32:12. > :32:16.understand that the crime you are pleading guilty to can't carry a
:32:17. > :32:22.maximum term of 50 years? By eradicating the mausoleums
:32:23. > :32:28.intentionally you destroy something that is intangible and immeasurable.
:32:29. > :32:32.The court in The Hague is normally the setting for trials of genocide
:32:33. > :32:35.cases and similar crimes against humanity. We are asking if
:32:36. > :32:43.destroying monuments should be classed as a war crime. Joining now
:32:44. > :32:48.is a blogger on culture and Islam and an architecture critic with the
:32:49. > :32:55.Evening Standard. Welcome to you both. What is a war crime? The
:32:56. > :32:59.reason I am asking this is why this case is being held in The Hague.
:33:00. > :33:02.There are lots of different war crimes covering matters from the
:33:03. > :33:09.treatment of prisoners to bombing civilians and on culture. Attacks on
:33:10. > :33:14.culture are protected in various international laws. Including the
:33:15. > :33:20.ones that govern the International Criminal Court in The Hague. What is
:33:21. > :33:29.unique about this case isn't that it is being tried as a war crime,
:33:30. > :33:33.because it has been done before in the tribunal is that covered the
:33:34. > :33:40.crimes in Yugoslavia, Milosevic was being tried for crimes against
:33:41. > :33:42.culture as well as workarounds and crimes against humanity. The
:33:43. > :33:51.difference in this case is that it is the first time that somebody has
:33:52. > :33:55.been tried solely for war crimes which cover attacks on cultural
:33:56. > :33:59.property and that is why it is a first. So should destroying cultural
:34:00. > :34:05.heritage be a war crime? It almost certainly should. Partly because it
:34:06. > :34:10.is a facet of genocide. The attempt to eradicate people almost always
:34:11. > :34:14.goes in league with an attempt to eradicate in memory of them. In the
:34:15. > :34:19.initial stages of the Holocaust, the attacks upon Jews, there was a
:34:20. > :34:23.target on property, symbols, the representations of Jewishness in
:34:24. > :34:28.everyday life, synagogues. It makes perfect sense. Should it be classed
:34:29. > :34:34.alongside this? People are hearing that it is being tried in The Hague
:34:35. > :34:40.alongside genocide. Is it as important? Getting the language
:34:41. > :34:45.precise is important. I think it is a facet and an aspect of genocide. I
:34:46. > :34:50.think if people thought someone was prosecuted for that in isolation it
:34:51. > :34:54.might be concerning. In the case of Malley, it is my understanding that
:34:55. > :35:03.this person is the only person currently being prosecuted for
:35:04. > :35:06.crimes in Mali and people might struggle to understand why someone
:35:07. > :35:11.is on trial for attacking things rather than people. It is a facet of
:35:12. > :35:14.genocide. Most people will think, if you why in the business of blowing
:35:15. > :35:19.up mausoleums, you are probably killing people as well. People would
:35:20. > :35:22.expect to see a focus on damage to human life are first in principle
:35:23. > :35:30.before moving on to historical and cultural memory. Can you see this as
:35:31. > :35:35.one group of cultural crimes rather than just the destruction of
:35:36. > :35:41.cultural Heritage? I think it is an interesting case. From a number of
:35:42. > :35:45.different angles. I think the fact that this case has been tried for
:35:46. > :35:48.cultural disruption and also there are other crimes which are actually
:35:49. > :35:54.against people and this has been singled out, and it is also
:35:55. > :35:58.interesting in terms of the light it sheds on other things. While there
:35:59. > :36:01.are war crimes happening and cultural sites are being destroyed,
:36:02. > :36:07.there is equally a lot of disruption taking place that is not linked to a
:36:08. > :36:12.war as such. If you look at Saudi Arabia, 95% of the historical sites
:36:13. > :36:16.have been destroyed in expansions that have been going on during
:36:17. > :36:19.peacetime. It is interesting in terms of the questions it throws up,
:36:20. > :36:24.how do you deal with destruction of a roll of historical sites? So how
:36:25. > :36:29.important our religious cultural monuments to people as part of their
:36:30. > :36:32.culture and sense of belonging. I think they are very crucial and that
:36:33. > :36:41.is why it is important that they are tried as workarounds. You cannot
:36:42. > :36:44.blame -- claim equivalence with killing millions of people. The
:36:45. > :36:47.reason this has come to trial as opposed to the death of people in
:36:48. > :36:51.Mali is because they have evidence which cannot be denied on CCTV. That
:36:52. > :36:57.is clear evidence that they thought it would succeed. Obviously he has
:36:58. > :37:04.pled guilty and said he is sorry. But I do believe that basically the
:37:05. > :37:08.point of war crimes and genocide, the same as sexual assault, the
:37:09. > :37:13.point is to undermine people's identity and pride in themselves.
:37:14. > :37:17.This is doing the same kind of thing, and from a horse Oracle point
:37:18. > :37:20.of view they are vibrant and it is heartbreaking but more than that,
:37:21. > :37:24.they are people's stories and crucial to their identity.
:37:25. > :37:27.Destroying them is destroying a whole culture and a whole people.
:37:28. > :37:32.That is the point and that is why it is an attempt to wipe out a people's
:37:33. > :37:39.perception of themselves as much as it would wipe out their knowledge.
:37:40. > :37:43.It cannot be claimed as the same as killing millions but it is a war
:37:44. > :37:51.crime all the same. He is the first person to admit to this, to plead
:37:52. > :37:55.guilty in this court. The question arises, is it easier to plead guilty
:37:56. > :37:59.to cultural destruction than the mass killing of human beings? He
:38:00. > :38:07.might want to mitigate his sentence by pleading guilty. But the point we
:38:08. > :38:12.are discussing here is, it is a war crime, technically, already, but
:38:13. > :38:16.should it be a crime against humanity, to? It is not at the
:38:17. > :38:21.moment. We have a problem in that the conduct of war is governed by
:38:22. > :38:28.certain laws but the destruction of culture as an attack, a crime
:38:29. > :38:36.against humanity, isn't. Rafinha Limited, the man who coined the word
:38:37. > :38:40.genocide and was instrumental in getting the genocide convention
:38:41. > :38:44.through in 1948, he wanted there to be vandalism clauses within the
:38:45. > :38:49.convention that dealt with this issue that genocide is not just
:38:50. > :38:57.attacks on people and the means of production, is also at tax on what
:38:58. > :39:05.made them who they are, their collective identities. -- it is also
:39:06. > :39:17.attacks. Since the post-war international law, we have had this
:39:18. > :39:21.disjunction, seeing attacks on culture as a tax on people and the
:39:22. > :39:24.links between human rights and heritage needs to be brought back
:39:25. > :39:27.together. People will still be thinking about this comparison
:39:28. > :39:32.because this has taken place in The Hague. People will be asking, for
:39:33. > :39:39.example Radovan Karadzic last year he was found guilty of the massacre
:39:40. > :39:46.of 8000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys in Srebrenica in 1995. Is that
:39:47. > :39:49.comparable? I don't think it is. I was concerned during the early
:39:50. > :39:53.stages of the Syrian conflict that a lot of Western focus was on the fate
:39:54. > :39:56.of Palmyra at a time when there were practical steps that could have been
:39:57. > :40:00.taken through military intervention or taking refugees that were not
:40:01. > :40:05.being taken. I am not suggesting that you cannot be concerned about
:40:06. > :40:11.both. I am not concerning suggesting that concern about one eclipses the
:40:12. > :40:15.other. -- I am not suggesting. Our focus should be the fate of human
:40:16. > :40:23.beings rather than cultural artefacts, important though they are
:40:24. > :40:26.to humanity. If you are trying people for genocide, cultural
:40:27. > :40:29.destruction is part of that. But I share concern over this focus over
:40:30. > :40:33.what is happening to antiquities rather than what is happening to
:40:34. > :40:35.people. Let's find out what you think about this. Lots of you have
:40:36. > :40:39.been sending in your thoughts. Tommy, you have some of those. Lots
:40:40. > :40:42.of people in agreement that destroying historical buildings is
:40:43. > :40:48.wrong but is it a war crime? That is where opinion differs. Most
:40:49. > :40:57.definitely, says Robert. They should be tried and convicted. Nigel says :
:40:58. > :41:18.And we have at this video message from Peter Higgins. If it was a war
:41:19. > :41:22.crime to destroy monuments, then surely the Allies could be indicted
:41:23. > :41:29.retrospectively for destroying half of Germany's cultural civilisation.
:41:30. > :41:35.This is a silly idea. Send in your videos, e-mail them to us at: What
:41:36. > :41:42.was that gentleman's name? Peter. You had a wry smile on your
:41:43. > :41:46.face when he was saying that. I think it is interesting. What that
:41:47. > :41:51.gentleman is saying feeds into what I was saying earlier. When you try
:41:52. > :42:00.one person for these crimes, it suddenly opens up a raft of history
:42:01. > :42:03.and crimes that you could try people for because yes, some people would
:42:04. > :42:08.say what happened in Germany was a crime against the German
:42:09. > :42:13.civilisation. As I said earlier, there are acts that happen around
:42:14. > :42:17.the world all the time. With the Mali Muslims, it was said that these
:42:18. > :42:20.things were very important to the people. But there are things that
:42:21. > :42:23.happen around the world that are important to those people. It could
:42:24. > :42:30.be viewed as being important to all of mankind. In terms of the
:42:31. > :42:36.destruction in the Middle East or Palmyra, that is the cradle of
:42:37. > :42:40.civilisation in the same way that Greece was. If you go to the Indus
:42:41. > :42:46.Valley. There are sites where... But the deliberate murder of people, is
:42:47. > :42:49.that different? To me, I would always plays human life above
:42:50. > :42:56.anything else. That is first and foremost but I think, I agree with
:42:57. > :43:00.what was being said earlier in terms of this eradication of history. You
:43:01. > :43:03.are deleting memory. And that is systematically happening around the
:43:04. > :43:07.world at the moment. I don't think it is an either or. It is important
:43:08. > :43:13.to remember that people like Lincoln said that burning bodies is not the
:43:14. > :43:29.same as burning books. When you intervene, you may stop the burning.
:43:30. > :43:38.The two are linked and you often find that attacks on, as Tim said,
:43:39. > :43:41.synagogues result in attacks on people later. We see the removal of
:43:42. > :43:45.people from the cities before the removal of people themselves. It is
:43:46. > :43:51.not an either or, the idea that one is more important than the other is
:43:52. > :43:55.a false dichotomy. It is recognising the link between the two. Thank you
:43:56. > :43:59.for your thoughts. And thank you for your thoughts. One week from now
:44:00. > :44:02.Mother Teresa will become a saint. The nun who became known as the
:44:03. > :44:06.angel of mercy achieved worldwide recognition for her work among the
:44:07. > :44:10.dying and the destitute in Calcutta. Mother Teresa will be canonised at a
:44:11. > :44:16.special ceremony led by Pope Francis in Rome and tomorrow the film,
:44:17. > :44:17.Letters to Mother Teresa will be released in the UK. It stars Juliet
:44:18. > :44:26.Stevenson. Dear father, never in all my life
:44:27. > :44:30.did I know there was so much suffering in the world as I see
:44:31. > :44:34.here. There are so many people interested in knowing about you. If
:44:35. > :44:39.you want to know the story, look outside. The poor are there. Night
:44:40. > :44:43.was an amazing role. I love you as God loves you. What a privilege and
:44:44. > :44:48.joy to be asked to play her. This work is far more difficult than I
:44:49. > :44:52.had MPed it would be. How long will my heart suffer. Mother Teresa
:44:53. > :44:59.dedicated her life to caring for helpers and the dying in the slums
:45:00. > :45:04.of one of India's biggest cities. She died in 1997, owning just two
:45:05. > :45:10.Sarries and a bucket to wash them in. In most cases you need two
:45:11. > :45:23.miracles attributed to you to become a saint. Pope John Paul II
:45:24. > :45:28.recognised this. The present Pope acknowledged her second miracle
:45:29. > :45:33.after man with multiple brain tumours recovered. In life Mother
:45:34. > :45:39.Teresa was often described as a living saint, and had many admirers,
:45:40. > :45:45.and had many admirers, including princess dinena. In death once she
:45:46. > :45:51.officially becomes a saint, the faithful can pray to her to
:45:52. > :45:56.intercede on their behalf with God. Her dedication and good work earned
:45:57. > :46:02.her a Nobel Peace Prize. Even so, the speed of which her progression
:46:03. > :46:06.to sainthood was achieved was regarded by some was too rapid. Is
:46:07. > :46:14.it too easy to become a saint, and are there too many? We are joined by
:46:15. > :46:22.the editor of The Sceptic magazine. What is a saint? In a common all
:46:23. > :46:27.garden way you can say it is a role model, someone with a virtuous
:46:28. > :46:31.personality. But it is a word that you can only apply it with a top
:46:32. > :46:37.down process through the Catholic Church. Kate, what is a saint to
:46:38. > :46:41.you? It is someone who is meant to have led a life of great holiness
:46:42. > :46:45.but increasingly now we are expecting a saint to have been
:46:46. > :46:50.involved in good works and helped others, and you can't think of
:46:51. > :46:56.anyone who devoted herself more selflessly than Mother Teresa. . .
:46:57. > :47:02.My Catholic school, where someone was free from sin, but from an
:47:03. > :47:10.Islamic tradition it is someone who is extremely holy and close to God
:47:11. > :47:14.and can intercede on your behalf. A saint is an ordinary person who we
:47:15. > :47:18.know is in Heaven and is an example to the rest of us ordinary people to
:47:19. > :47:24.get there. So what does it take to become a saint? It is complicated.
:47:25. > :47:28.If you were martyred for the faith, you died for your Christian faith,
:47:29. > :47:36.it is recognised that sainthood is inevitable. A father of that was the
:47:37. > :47:41.French Father who died recently. The second is someone who lived a holy
:47:42. > :47:45.life. Not necessarily all of their life. All Saints were born in sin,
:47:46. > :47:49.but at some stage they led a holy life. It is recognised and
:47:50. > :47:55.understood at a local level, they are venerated, that they were a very
:47:56. > :48:00.good person. The Church takes evidence of two miracles. Analyses
:48:01. > :48:03.it meticulously. It goes before various committees. People make the
:48:04. > :48:06.case for the miracles better accurate and people make the case
:48:07. > :48:11.against. And at the end of that process that person is recognised as
:48:12. > :48:14.a saint. A very important definitional point, the Church never
:48:15. > :48:19.creates Saints. The Church only recognises Saints. Saint is someone
:48:20. > :48:21.who we have evidence is in Heaven and all the Church is doing is
:48:22. > :48:25.saying we recognise that evidence. It is OK to venerate this person,
:48:26. > :48:30.because we are pretty sure they've made it. So from this process, what
:48:31. > :48:37.can ordinary people recognise from this process and the process of
:48:38. > :48:41.being made a saint. What can we get from this? I think in the current
:48:42. > :48:46.day it is that thing of seeing goodness out there. I think we are
:48:47. > :48:51.living in an increasingly commercial society. I think faith is becoming
:48:52. > :49:00.more and more, it is moving into boxes. I think people like Mother
:49:01. > :49:03.Teresa provide a role model. It is that general humanity and
:49:04. > :49:07.spirituality and that ability to go good. For someone like me from an
:49:08. > :49:12.everyday point of view, that is what I would gain from it. It is a real
:49:13. > :49:16.role model that somebody would dedicate their life in this way when
:49:17. > :49:23.we have such short attention spans. I agree. We live in a world that's
:49:24. > :49:29.increasingly obsessed with spending and a world that rewards riches,
:49:30. > :49:34.fame, and we see in Centrica lar examples we see the honours system.
:49:35. > :49:38.Many of us might suggest this has been compromised, that we see people
:49:39. > :49:44.who are wealthy, donors or political chums getting honours. We do need a
:49:45. > :49:47.way of recognising people who've selflessly devoted themselves to
:49:48. > :49:53.goodness. The problem is it has to be within the structures of the
:49:54. > :49:59.Church. You can't have someone who was outside of the Church helping
:50:00. > :50:05.each other. Mother Teresa only owned two Sarries and a bucket. Others
:50:06. > :50:09.have devoted their lives but can't be canonised in the same way. It was
:50:10. > :50:13.interesting talking about the miracles. Many people will be
:50:14. > :50:18.thinking, how do you distinguish between a religious miracle and an
:50:19. > :50:23.amazing occurrence. We talk about Mother Teresa is attributed to
:50:24. > :50:31.someone with brain tallers and cancer. The first miracle was proven
:50:32. > :50:39.not to be a miracle but was dui to modern modern medicine. Is it was a
:50:40. > :50:46.cyst that was amenable to medicine, but she felt it was because of the
:50:47. > :50:50.intervention of mother mother. I'm sure faith helped her mentally but I
:50:51. > :50:53.don't think there's a good enough evidence-based system to think there
:50:54. > :50:59.was something supernatural going on. Is it dangerous the believe in
:51:00. > :51:02.miracles? Absolutely. You can end up avoiding getting normal medical
:51:03. > :51:05.treatment, you can see that with homeopathy, with lack of
:51:06. > :51:10.vaccination. If you are waiting for God to community and help you, then
:51:11. > :51:14.you can die. Which actually you are free to do, to be honest. We can all
:51:15. > :51:18.dispose of our lives as we want to. But when you do that on behalf of
:51:19. > :51:23.people you are responsible for, such as children, it is absolutely
:51:24. > :51:28.criminal. There are many different definitions of miracle. Miracle on a
:51:29. > :51:31.simple level is evidence of divine intervention in the world. But if
:51:32. > :51:44.you look closely enough and your mind is open enough you can see that
:51:45. > :51:49.in so many ways. The tragic earthquake in unfortunatelibury
:51:50. > :51:54.Yahoo! The priest described his rescue as a miracle. Of course it
:51:55. > :51:58.was people pulling him out and it was luck, but he regards it as a
:51:59. > :52:03.miracle. Another example from the earthquake was an older sister who
:52:04. > :52:07.threw herself upon her younger sister to protects her when the roof
:52:08. > :52:13.fell in. I was say that's the miracle of love. It is not science
:52:14. > :52:18.but is an example of God moving through the world in acts of love.
:52:19. > :52:23.But love is rational. There is no way we wouldn't have love if we
:52:24. > :52:29.don't have God. I think the thing with miracles, to me it seems a box
:52:30. > :52:36.ticking exercise with Mother Teresa. She deserved to be a saint in terms
:52:37. > :52:42.of what she has done in holiness, but these two... There's been an
:52:43. > :52:46.awful lot of evidence that she was very much into the dedication of
:52:47. > :52:52.suffering to Jesus Christ. As such she had a lot of resources at her,
:52:53. > :52:56.available to her. She could have used them for morphine for end stage
:52:57. > :53:02.pain relief, could have used them for medical cures. But she didn't of
:53:03. > :53:07.the people lay there and they died in pain. Do you think she shouldn't
:53:08. > :53:10.be recognised as a saint? That's down to the Catholic Church. You are
:53:11. > :53:17.talking about a trademark term within the Catholic Church. There's
:53:18. > :53:21.a difference in being a saint and a virtuous person. I don't think she
:53:22. > :53:25.was a virtuous person. This is why miracles are person. If as Kate
:53:26. > :53:29.framed it the Church made a decision to make someone a saint on the
:53:30. > :53:33.outward appearance of good works, it is possible they could decide
:53:34. > :53:38.someone is a saint who privately wasn't saintly at all. One of the
:53:39. > :53:42.reasons the Church looks for the miracles is for metaphysical proof
:53:43. > :53:46.that someone is in Heaven, as that's the truth someone led a holy life.
:53:47. > :53:51.Our viewers have views as well. We are keen to hear what you are
:53:52. > :53:53.saying. All of the comments at home are questioning the role of a saint
:53:54. > :54:16.in modern-day society. There's onlien Saints in this
:54:17. > :54:23.studio. Studio. And you are saintly Tommy. That's not true. The figures,
:54:24. > :54:28.the estimates are that there are between 7,000 and 10,000 Saints.
:54:29. > :54:31.That's one saint for every 100,000 of the world's 1 billion-plus
:54:32. > :54:37.Catholics alone. The question is, are there too many Saints? Is it too
:54:38. > :54:42.easy to be a saint? I think the question of who whether it's too
:54:43. > :54:47.easy to be a saint, that's something for the Catholic Church to decide.
:54:48. > :54:52.And Islam? And Islam. Islam doesn't have the same kind of structure that
:54:53. > :54:58.the Church does where people are canonised. With Islam it is more of
:54:59. > :55:02.a grass roots movement. There are probably five people who are
:55:03. > :55:06.recognised as being free from sin. That's prophet and some members of
:55:07. > :55:10.his family. Other Saints are home-grown. It is holy men who are
:55:11. > :55:15.either holy and have been able to help people. Or people, shrines
:55:16. > :55:19.where people have seen miracles. I was interested in what you said
:55:20. > :55:24.earlier in terms of miracles. The idea of miracles provides hope for
:55:25. > :55:31.people as well. There is, there are things that science does not
:55:32. > :55:35.understand. We can't dismiss that. Actually it is dangerous if people
:55:36. > :55:38.go just for the miracle rather than medicine as well. But the
:55:39. > :55:42.combination of the two can be extremely powerful. I have to finish
:55:43. > :55:45.this conversation. I'm so sorry. We do this every week, cut short as
:55:46. > :55:50.soon as we get to of the really good bits. Thank you so much for your
:55:51. > :55:53.time. Thank you as well for taking part with the programme. This week
:55:54. > :55:57.has been dominated by the news of the earthquake in Italy. Close to
:55:58. > :56:04.300 people died, including 3 Britons. In tribute to those who
:56:05. > :56:08.lost their lives, the principal soprano of the London festival opera
:56:09. > :56:18.is singing soprano of the London festival opera
:56:19. > :57:14.is Pie Jesu. Pie Jesu Domine, dona eis
:57:15. > :58:57.requiem, dona eis requiem. Dona eis domine, dona eis requiem,
:58:58. > :59:02.sempiternam requiem, sempiternam requiem.