:00:09. > :00:14.Welcome to Sunday Morning Live, I am Naga Munchetty. On today's programme
:00:15. > :00:17.a series of five-day strikes over the next four months is the
:00:18. > :00:20.prescription junior doctors have come up with to end the deadlock
:00:21. > :00:25.between them and the government. We are asking is it unethical of them
:00:26. > :00:28.do watch out on their patients? Some priests have revealed they have
:00:29. > :00:32.married same-sex partners in defiance of church of England
:00:33. > :00:36.guidelines, is the church behind the times on gay rights? The migrant
:00:37. > :00:38.camp at Calais is swelling and campaigners are concerned about
:00:39. > :00:51.vulnerable young people, is it time to allow more
:00:52. > :00:52.migrants into the UK? And bestselling crime novelist Val
:00:53. > :00:58.McDermid explains why the violence in her books is so important. The
:00:59. > :00:59.way it spreads like a stone in a pond, the ripples affect people and
:01:00. > :01:16.change their lives. The panel is here ready to go and so
:01:17. > :01:21.is Tommy who will be showing all of your thoughts with us. Good morning.
:01:22. > :01:29.Yellow good morning how are you? We want you to get in touch. If you are
:01:30. > :01:46.getting in touch on Twitter or use the hashtag. Or you can call us.
:01:47. > :01:56.If you are texting don't forget to put your name on the message.
:01:57. > :02:02.Looking forward to hearing from you, I think we will get a lot of
:02:03. > :02:08.comments, a lot of meaty subjects to get into. Let's meet our subjects,
:02:09. > :02:14.Dr Rishi Dhir is a junior doctor, Peter Hitchens is a columnist for
:02:15. > :02:16.the Mail On Sunday, Lemn Sissay is a poet and broadcaster, and Angela
:02:17. > :02:19.Epstein is a journalist and commentator.
:02:20. > :02:21.The Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt says planned strikes by junior
:02:22. > :02:23.doctors from September 12th could lead to 100,000
:02:24. > :02:26.The doctors are resisting the imposition of a new contract
:02:27. > :02:29.and say they've been boxed into a corner by the Government.
:02:30. > :02:32.With both sides locking horns, it's become the worst industrial
:02:33. > :02:36.relations dispute in the history of the NHS.
:02:37. > :02:38.The Hippocratic oath states, "First do no harm," but will this
:02:39. > :02:41.latest move end up doing more harm than good?
:02:42. > :02:44.Tommy has been out about to find out if people in London think
:02:45. > :02:51.this strike will cure the contract dispute.
:02:52. > :02:59.I am in Tavistock square in London outside the headquarters of the BMA,
:03:00. > :03:03.we know that they are on the side of the doctors but how do the public
:03:04. > :03:07.feel about doctors going on strike? If I was ill I would be disappointed
:03:08. > :03:12.but I do feel doctors should be better paid so what is the solution?
:03:13. > :03:17.I think there are some provisions where I don't think striking should
:03:18. > :03:20.be allowed, you are talking about people's health. You can stop
:03:21. > :03:25.doctors from using the right to strike. I think it's detrimental to
:03:26. > :03:31.the welfare of a lot of people especially given the length of
:03:32. > :03:35.hospital waiting lists. The morality is that people should be allowed to
:03:36. > :03:41.strike. How does it make you feel? It makes me angry. You have to look
:03:42. > :03:46.after patients. That is why I became a doctor, my family are all doctors,
:03:47. > :03:51.we would not strike if it compromised patient safety. Shoot a
:03:52. > :03:58.five-day strike be allowed? No, what about the patients, who will serve
:03:59. > :04:03.them? People will be a let down. In the short-term, yes but in the term
:04:04. > :04:09.tired doctors make mistakes. I think five days borders on dangerous. It's
:04:10. > :04:15.a sad time for doctors, it's not something they want to be doing, I
:04:16. > :04:16.think we should set up and think about what the future of the NHS is
:04:17. > :04:19.going to be. That was the diagnosis
:04:20. > :04:31.of the people Tommy met, We know the police are not allowed
:04:32. > :04:34.to strike, why should doctors be allowed to strike? First of all
:04:35. > :04:39.thank you for having me, it's important we can get our views
:04:40. > :04:44.across. Why has it come to this? For me striking is a sad day for doctors
:04:45. > :04:49.and patients and the public. It represents a failure of talks, a
:04:50. > :04:53.failure of the government to listen. This has been there since the
:04:54. > :04:56.contract was imposed on July the 7th, the announcement was that if we
:04:57. > :05:00.couldn't reach a resolution on important points we would go with
:05:01. > :05:05.industrial action. What concerns me is not the question of juju strike,
:05:06. > :05:10.it's what are the ramifications if this contract goes through?
:05:11. > :05:13.Short-term the strike will inconvenience a great deal of
:05:14. > :05:18.people, there will be consultant cover throughout the days of strike.
:05:19. > :05:22.Health education in England is able to contact the BMA is that any
:05:23. > :05:26.incident is declared doctors will return from the picket lines but the
:05:27. > :05:30.fact is this contract, not only the doctors themselves but the
:05:31. > :05:33.government 's own risk register has shown it's completely unsafe. It's
:05:34. > :05:41.understaffed and underfunded and politically motivated. We are
:05:42. > :05:45.talking about the ethics of doctors striking at this moment, is there
:05:46. > :05:50.not an alternative considering the responsibility you have two keep us
:05:51. > :05:57.safe? Absolutely and I take that on board completely. When you talk
:05:58. > :06:03.about the Hippocratic oath, the amendment to it back in 1997
:06:04. > :06:06.actually said it is the responsibility of doctors to stand
:06:07. > :06:10.up against laws which will compromise the health of their
:06:11. > :06:14.patients. You talk about the ethical dilemma, this contract has been
:06:15. > :06:18.shown, to give the viewers an explanation, at the moment we have
:06:19. > :06:22.seven days emergency care so if you come in at any time of the night,
:06:23. > :06:28.weekends, you are seen by a doctor with anything like a heart attack,
:06:29. > :06:35.injury, etc. What they are talking about is stretching five days of
:06:36. > :06:40.non-emergency... I am going to interrupt... I am trying to talk
:06:41. > :06:42.about the ethical dilemma, if you stretch those things without funding
:06:43. > :06:48.it will lead to patient harm and patient death. I will be actively
:06:49. > :06:53.complicit in endorsing a contract which not only I know does harm, as
:06:54. > :06:57.a doctor of ten years experience in the NHS, but also that the
:06:58. > :07:07.governments own risk register has shown does harm. Angela your son is
:07:08. > :07:12.training to be a doctor, hearing what Dr Rishi has said it do you
:07:13. > :07:18.agree? I think it's unfair to be a spokesperson for my son as he is not
:07:19. > :07:22.here, or let what happens in 1's own family influence the response to the
:07:23. > :07:26.question. I think as a whole doctors should hang their heads in shame, it
:07:27. > :07:31.is morally repugnant to strike. Patients cannot timetable when the
:07:32. > :07:36.cartel and I know that myself because I have experienced Apache
:07:37. > :07:40.weekend here, I had a threatened miscarriage and I had to wait until
:07:41. > :07:49.Monday to find out if the baby was still viable or not. I am sure other
:07:50. > :07:52.people have experienced this. We cannot halve emotional blackmail,
:07:53. > :07:56.the police cannot strike because if you have a public service upon which
:07:57. > :08:01.people's lives depend you cannot withdraw Labour just because you
:08:02. > :08:06.think you are not earning enough. Doctors by and large, and it's a
:08:07. > :08:10.noble profession, you deserve the salaries you get because of the
:08:11. > :08:15.training involved in acquiring that. But you will have secure pensions
:08:16. > :08:21.and a decent salary at the end of your training. A lot of people
:08:22. > :08:25.worked seven days a week. The chance to reply. A couple of points you
:08:26. > :08:30.made, you said if I get ill, people cannot control when they get ill,
:08:31. > :08:34.you are referring to emergency which runs seven days a week. Secondly you
:08:35. > :08:39.have said this is an issue about pay, I have a year to go before I
:08:40. > :08:43.become a consultant, the junior contract discussion does not affect
:08:44. > :08:48.me, if anything striking I will lose out on pay. I agree in one sense
:08:49. > :08:55.because I read an interesting article of yours last year, the 30th
:08:56. > :08:58.of November 2015, you wrote in the Telegraph, why should patients wait
:08:59. > :09:02.to see doctors and you about your experience with your son 's clinic
:09:03. > :09:05.when you are having to wait long periods of time. Your closing
:09:06. > :09:09.statement mentioned how can the government pushed through a
:09:10. > :09:12.seven-day service, is that the priority and we should be looking to
:09:13. > :09:19.strengthen the five-day nonemergency service and I absolutely agree. They
:09:20. > :09:25.are not mutually exclusive. I had a situation where I spent three
:09:26. > :09:32.minutes per patient and that is not good care, it is not safe. We got
:09:33. > :09:35.lucky at times, if you are not going to increase the funding and the
:09:36. > :09:40.auxiliary staff to run a seven-day nonemergency service, you need
:09:41. > :09:46.nurses, diagnostician is. This is not about striking and whether it is
:09:47. > :09:49.right or not. I should add that the junior doctors leaders recommended
:09:50. > :09:54.the deal which they are now striking against back in May. They said it
:09:55. > :09:57.was acceptable. So it's odd that they should now be calling strikes
:09:58. > :10:01.against it. It is quite well-known there is strong division among the
:10:02. > :10:04.junior doctors leaders and indeed among doctors as a whole about
:10:05. > :10:08.whether the strikes should go ahead. The argument is not about the things
:10:09. > :10:12.you say, we know there are many problems with the health service,
:10:13. > :10:15.the argument about whether it is moral for you to go on strike and
:10:16. > :10:21.what you do on your job is provide Mercy. Is there any stage you can
:10:22. > :10:26.see I will not provide mercy though you are in pain because I want more
:10:27. > :10:29.money. The answer has to be no. You say how sorry you are to go on
:10:30. > :10:43.strike but if you are so sorry why do you support the strikes? Let's
:10:44. > :10:51.get the opinion of Lemn There is no great news story of deaths due to
:10:52. > :10:56.sit striking... I have spent my life trusting doctors. I was for many
:10:57. > :11:00.years and industrial correspondent and I covered strikes all the time.
:11:01. > :11:04.There was an ambulance driver strike and I was assured by my friends who
:11:05. > :11:09.were trade union leaders in the ambulance dispute that there would
:11:10. > :11:13.be no risk to actual emergency cover. The day the strike began I
:11:14. > :11:19.witnessed somebody being struck by a car in North London. I called an
:11:20. > :11:22.ambulance, the 999 operator said to me there will be no ambulance
:11:23. > :11:27.because of the strike, the patient will have to wait at least an hour
:11:28. > :11:35.lying in the road. I saw this happen. This kind of strike is
:11:36. > :11:38.dangerous, does cause misery. There was an article in the habit imposed
:11:39. > :11:43.were a science journal proved that when doctors go on strike more
:11:44. > :11:50.people, less people died, you can research that. We have got
:11:51. > :11:56.Jacqueline Haworth in our Manchester studio who is also a junior doctor,
:11:57. > :11:59.Peter you mentioned division amongst junior doctors, it will be
:12:00. > :12:05.interesting to get your view if you will strike and if you support it?
:12:06. > :12:11.Many junior doctors feel strike action is the last resort. Many
:12:12. > :12:14.doctors feel that to go on strike is our last option against this
:12:15. > :12:20.bullying which is going on by our employer. Nobody can deny, junior
:12:21. > :12:28.doctors have been creative in their pursuit of a contract. We have had
:12:29. > :12:32.campaigns, we have marched and rallied and had set in protests and
:12:33. > :12:36.none of it has worked. We are still getting this contract which will be
:12:37. > :12:41.a significant pay cut for a number of junior doctors. For junior
:12:42. > :12:45.doctors like me sorry, for junior doctors like me who are mothers, who
:12:46. > :12:49.have gone on maternity leave, who are part-time and who are working in
:12:50. > :12:56.an intensive and highly anti-social hours specialities, we will have
:12:57. > :13:00.significant pay cuts. Going forward a doctor who makes the same choices
:13:01. > :13:09.as me will have to work for two years. You spoke about protests and
:13:10. > :13:14.sit will you go on strike now? I need to defer my decision until
:13:15. > :13:18.September the 12th because I do have concerns, we all have concerns. It
:13:19. > :13:22.was mentioned before that the BMA recommended the deal and I think the
:13:23. > :13:28.BMA or junior doctors and the general public and explanation about
:13:29. > :13:33.this. Our leader went around the country, held a series of road shows
:13:34. > :13:37.which were written and approved by NHS employers to say how great the
:13:38. > :13:42.contract was. It was delivered to the timescale, we had no choice, all
:13:43. > :13:51.the information came one-sided and we still rejected the deal, 58%
:13:52. > :14:06.rejected the deal. OK, Dr Rishi it was a referendum, there was no, I
:14:07. > :14:10.give the analogy of Brexit, our current Prime Minister and former
:14:11. > :14:14.Prime Minister said we should stay in the EU but they have respected
:14:15. > :14:18.the will of the voting public to carry that through. The BMA
:14:19. > :14:26.represent us as the membership. I want to go back to what Peter said,
:14:27. > :14:30.you are saying it's about money. I believe money is certainly an issue
:14:31. > :14:37.within the context of recruitment and retention but what I am saying
:14:38. > :14:42.is we are at a situation where we have 20% gaps on rotors. We are in a
:14:43. > :14:47.position where there is 20% less applications to medical school. We
:14:48. > :14:53.are struggling. At a major trauma hospital... All the time you change
:14:54. > :15:00.the subject. THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER I am surprised that two
:15:01. > :15:03.columnists are not trusting the same doctor they would take their
:15:04. > :15:08.children to if they were ill. This strike is happening by people that
:15:09. > :15:12.we entrust our children and our lives to and when they stand up and
:15:13. > :15:16.say there really is something wrong our instinct is to say you just want
:15:17. > :15:24.money and I don't believe that's true. Angela?
:15:25. > :15:31.The nub of the issue is whether striking is ethical. There are lots
:15:32. > :15:36.of ways that you considering the table and negotiate, but the issue
:15:37. > :15:40.here is whether the withdrawal of the labour whether members of the
:15:41. > :15:44.public are a captive audience, is that morally unacceptable? On any
:15:45. > :15:50.level, I don't see how it can be. Peter is right with this, I am
:15:51. > :15:58.sorry, mea culpa, the hairshirt aspect, there is always an
:15:59. > :16:02.anecdote... Mothers working anti-social hours, juggling, it's
:16:03. > :16:06.difficult. Lots of people do jobs whether domestic circumstances don't
:16:07. > :16:09.necessarily marry with their profession. It is about a choice
:16:10. > :16:15.that you make. If you choose to go into medicine, this is a choice that
:16:16. > :16:20.you make, it is not an easy job. Jacqueline, do you think striking is
:16:21. > :16:26.ethical? Angela used the word moral. As I mentioned before, NHS
:16:27. > :16:31.employers, they are only empire. If we want to work as junior doctors in
:16:32. > :16:34.the UK, we don't have the option that consultants do to work in the
:16:35. > :16:40.private sector, we have no choice but to work on the NHS. But when you
:16:41. > :16:44.become a consultant, you will do. I have been a junior doctor for nine
:16:45. > :16:49.years, I have another nine years left. I have a young family that I
:16:50. > :16:58.want to play for now, I need to pay a mortgage now. This junior doctor
:16:59. > :17:02.contract is about saving money for the Government on mothers, part-time
:17:03. > :17:05.workers, those doctors already working evenings, weekends and
:17:06. > :17:10.nights, working the hardest. They will lose the most money from these
:17:11. > :17:16.contracts. There are lots of working mothers. We are asking if it is
:17:17. > :17:21.ethical. Is it ethical to bully and employee? Let's get the views of our
:17:22. > :17:24.audience on whether it is ethical to strike.
:17:25. > :17:28.As with the studio and people in the street and the texts, people are
:17:29. > :17:32.split, they want to support the doctors but are worried about
:17:33. > :17:35.patient safety. Terri says, I still support the junior doctors even
:17:36. > :17:38.though my double operation is scheduled right in the middle of one
:17:39. > :17:42.strike in October. Stephen says they are using the same
:17:43. > :17:53.rights as most of the unionised workers. One being bullied or
:17:54. > :17:55.cornered into something they don't agree with, withdraw your labour.
:17:56. > :17:58.This is a democracy, it is their right. Rose says I am losing
:17:59. > :18:00.patience with them. From what I have heard, they are losing the support
:18:01. > :18:03.of some of the public. Mick says, a worker is a work, it
:18:04. > :18:07.does not matter what they are being paid to do. If their employer abuses
:18:08. > :18:14.the relationship, they strike. Pat says it is ethical, sorry,
:18:15. > :18:21.unethical, when they accepted a good deal not that long ago.
:18:22. > :18:25.Lemn, your view, is it emotionally... Will we see doctors
:18:26. > :18:31.losing the support of the public? That is the tone of some comments?
:18:32. > :18:35.The public is being pushed into a car being told facts like the
:18:36. > :18:39.doctors are using the public and they will not get the servers that
:18:40. > :18:43.they needed the strike happens, that is not true. People are not dying
:18:44. > :18:48.because this strike happens. Those doctors care for the people that
:18:49. > :18:53.they look after and they will not jeopardise lives by this strike. And
:18:54. > :18:59.when a doctor stands up and makes a point about how he feels about his
:19:00. > :19:04.work, or her work, I will listen, because he is the person who looks
:19:05. > :19:09.after... Do you listen to the doctors that object to the strike? A
:19:10. > :19:13.poll came out this weekend suggesting a large number of junior
:19:14. > :19:19.doctors do not feel bound to this strike. You are arguing against
:19:20. > :19:24.yourself. We have had a mandate, 90% of people... That dates from
:19:25. > :19:28.November last year and is completely outdated, because since then a deal
:19:29. > :19:41.has been negotiated, which doctors were urged to accept. By one
:19:42. > :19:45.individual, Johann Malawana E. Angela, you accuse us of being
:19:46. > :19:50.morally reprehensible, you said about diversifying the issue and
:19:51. > :19:53.asked if it is morally or ethically right to strike. But as to be taken
:19:54. > :20:00.to the context of why we are striking. I feel I am almost in an
:20:01. > :20:07.unfair advantage, I have worked in the NHS for ten years so I know what
:20:08. > :20:12.cuts are like. We are patients, so we have even a greater stake. We all
:20:13. > :20:16.use the NHS, I am a patient too. I feel in a position to talk to you
:20:17. > :20:21.about what has happened when services have been cuts, we have
:20:22. > :20:26.seen maternity and A services closed. That is a different
:20:27. > :20:31.argument. Let me put a simple question to you, if a steelworker
:20:32. > :20:36.goes on strike, the steel is not made. That is all that happens. When
:20:37. > :20:40.the strike ends, the Steelers made. When you go on strike and people are
:20:41. > :20:45.in pain, they are in pain for longer and with less hope of being cured
:20:46. > :20:50.and treated than if you were not on strike, that is irrecoverable, that
:20:51. > :20:55.will happen. There is no moral difference. It is self-evident. Do
:20:56. > :20:59.you really think there is no moral difference between a steelworker and
:21:00. > :21:04.a doctor going on strike? Do you really think that? Thanks very much
:21:05. > :21:12.for making that point. My pleasure. But what is the answer? That is the
:21:13. > :21:19.nub of the issue. Is there an equitable variety... Lets give Rishi
:21:20. > :21:24.the chance to answer, briefly. The contract is being imposed on four
:21:25. > :21:28.weeks, there is an alternative. Is it morally ethical, did you feel you
:21:29. > :21:33.are morally correct to strike when you risk putting patients in pain?
:21:34. > :21:37.If the alternative is to risk causing patient death, which it will
:21:38. > :21:42.be at this contract comes in. Thank you very much for all your comments.
:21:43. > :21:47.We have had an unprecedented amount of interaction from the viewers this
:21:48. > :21:51.morning, thank you very much. Not surprisingly, it is a very emotive
:21:52. > :21:53.subject. Jacqueline, many thanks for your time. Thank you.
:21:54. > :21:55.Still to come on Sunday Morning Live...
:21:56. > :21:56.Children at risk - campaigners have called
:21:57. > :21:59.for the Government to allow 400 young migrants eligible
:22:00. > :22:10.Val McDermid started her working career as a journalist -
:22:11. > :22:12.now she makes up stories for a living.
:22:13. > :22:15.Val, sometimes called the Queen of Crime, is a Scottish novelist
:22:16. > :22:19.She was the first state-educated Scot to be accepted
:22:20. > :22:22.into St Hilda's College at Oxford University,
:22:23. > :22:27.Hardeep Singh Kohli now talks to her about that -
:22:28. > :22:45.Now, Val, you have just published your 30th novel, you have sold 11
:22:46. > :22:49.million books? 15 million now, apparently. Did you ever imagine as
:22:50. > :22:56.a little girl inker coldly that this is where you might be? No. I wanted
:22:57. > :23:01.to be a writer from the point that I realise that people got paid money
:23:02. > :23:05.for writing books. I must have been about nine or ten, reading The
:23:06. > :23:09.Chalet School books, where one of the characters grows up and becomes
:23:10. > :23:13.a writer, and it said about getting a check from your publisher. You get
:23:14. > :23:19.paid! You don't just do it out of love?! The cliche would be, given
:23:20. > :23:24.the sort of fiction that you write, let you had a tortured childhood,
:23:25. > :23:29.and all full-time, it was restrictive, that could not be
:23:30. > :23:32.further from the truth? I had a very own traumatic childhood, my parents
:23:33. > :23:39.were deeply in love with each other, we had a very nice life. We had no
:23:40. > :23:45.money, but we had the beach and the woods and a good family. We did
:23:46. > :23:48.things together. -- I had a very non-traumatic childhood. It was the
:23:49. > :23:53.sense that it was important to stay in touch with what nourishes you,
:23:54. > :23:56.which is your roots. It is hard to write with a sense of yourself if
:23:57. > :24:01.you don't have your feet firmly planted on the ground. You were the
:24:02. > :24:09.first state educated Scotswoman to go to St Hilda's. I can't imagine
:24:10. > :24:13.there were many folk in Fife that were at Oxford or Cambridge? I did
:24:14. > :24:18.not really realise that the time, but only years later at a college
:24:19. > :24:23.reunion, someone said to me, you were tremendously exotic! They have
:24:24. > :24:30.clearly never been to Kirkcaldy! I did not feel exotic, I felt like an
:24:31. > :24:35.outsider in lots of ways, but, for me, it was a huge culture shock. The
:24:36. > :24:38.obvious things like I could not speak the language, they did not
:24:39. > :24:42.understand what I was saying. Again, because I was brought up with this
:24:43. > :24:46.notion that I was as good as anybody else and I should call no man my
:24:47. > :24:53.master, I very much at the view that I had every right to be there. --
:24:54. > :24:56.very much had the view. Your series of non-dash-macro novels
:24:57. > :25:00.about the psychologists were made into the hit television series Wire
:25:01. > :25:18.Rimmed The Blood. -- Wire In The Blood. How was it for
:25:19. > :25:21.you watching the characters you created, being realised through the
:25:22. > :25:25.eyes and the voices of others? The first thing you have to do is let it
:25:26. > :25:29.go. You know it will not be the book, it has to be different. The
:25:30. > :25:34.grammar of television storytelling is very different to what I put in a
:25:35. > :25:38.book. But I think I was very well served by the adaptations, because
:25:39. > :25:41.they took the book very seriously, they made it out of love and
:25:42. > :25:58.respect, I think that shows on the screen. Move!
:25:59. > :26:03.Your work has been criticised for being graphically, graphically
:26:04. > :26:06.gruesome at points. I think you are dealing with the kind of thing is
:26:07. > :26:10.that human beings do to each other, and there is a kind of moral duty on
:26:11. > :26:15.you to be honest about what that is, not to be glib about it. These
:26:16. > :26:19.things exist, what happens out there in the world is far worse than
:26:20. > :26:23.anything I have put on the page. I am very conscious that when I am
:26:24. > :26:27.writing this kind of book it is necessary to be direct about what
:26:28. > :26:37.violences and the way it contaminates peoples lives, the way
:26:38. > :26:39.it spreads out like a stone thrown into a pond, the ripples affects
:26:40. > :26:41.people, they changed their lives, they make them deeply, deeply
:26:42. > :26:45.unhappy. If you're going to do this, you have to do it very carefully. I
:26:46. > :26:49.try to stay on the right side of economy, if you like, to say enough
:26:50. > :26:54.to make the reader understand that this is something appalling and
:26:55. > :27:01.grim, without glorying in it. And sends you portray quite a godless
:27:02. > :27:06.side of humanity. -- sometimes you portray. Have you had a faith
:27:07. > :27:12.yourself, have you looked elsewhere to a God? I grew up in the Church of
:27:13. > :27:16.Scotland, my parents were both churchgoers and arrived a great deal
:27:17. > :27:22.of satisfaction from their face. I think at some point in my teens, it
:27:23. > :27:29.seems to me not to be an explanation for the way the world works. And so
:27:30. > :27:33.I would say that I am pretty firmly in the agnostic leaning towards
:27:34. > :27:38.atheism camp. Humanist? That would probably be the closest to where I
:27:39. > :27:42.am in spiritual terms. I have problems of organised religion, I
:27:43. > :27:47.think it has been the source of many of our problems down the centuries.
:27:48. > :27:51.I have no problem with individual faith and spirituality, but these
:27:52. > :27:55.institutional bodies, like any institution, it becomes about
:27:56. > :28:03.preserving the institution. Do you imagine retirement, do you ever
:28:04. > :28:05.think about stopping writing and doing other things? I can't imagine
:28:06. > :28:10.it. Writers mostly don't retire, we tend to go on until we drop. If you
:28:11. > :28:15.are very lucky, your brain still keeps fizzing and the ideas still
:28:16. > :28:19.keep sidling into the back of your head. Why would you want to stop? I
:28:20. > :28:24.think I would drive my family completely insane if I stopped
:28:25. > :28:28.working. Val McDermid, it has been an
:28:29. > :28:31.absolute pleasure, as always. It has been a delight, thank you.
:28:32. > :28:33.Val McDermid - ready to produce another crimewave.
:28:34. > :28:36.Nicholas Chamberlain made the news yesterday when he revealed he had
:28:37. > :28:38.been in a long term relationship with his male partner.
:28:39. > :28:41.Hardly a big story, you'd think - but Nicholas also happens to be
:28:42. > :28:43.the Bishop of Grantham and is the first bishop
:28:44. > :28:46.in Britain to openly reveal he is in a gay relationship.
:28:47. > :28:48.Bishop Chamberlain said he had been honest about his sexuality
:28:49. > :29:06.My sexuality is part of who I am. I never sought to make it a secret. My
:29:07. > :29:12.focus on priority has been on my ministry, on serving God and God's
:29:13. > :29:14.people. And I do that, as I always have, as a gay man.
:29:15. > :29:16.Also this weekend, 14 gay and lesbian clergy couples called
:29:17. > :29:18.for greater acceptance within the church.
:29:19. > :29:21.In an open letter to the College of Bishops, some have revealed
:29:22. > :29:23.for the first time that they have married.
:29:24. > :29:25.That's in direct defiance of the Church's guidelines,
:29:26. > :29:26.which allow civil partnerships but not marriage.
:29:27. > :29:30.So, is the Church behind the times when it comes to gay rights?
:29:31. > :29:33.Joining the panel now are Father Andrew Foreshew-Cain,
:29:34. > :29:36.who organised the letter which was sent to the College
:29:37. > :29:39.of Bishops Yasmin Alibhai-Brown is a journalist and author.
:29:40. > :29:42.And Alison Ruoff is a lay member of the Church
:29:43. > :29:57.-- Alison Ruoff is a former member. Why did you send this letter? We
:29:58. > :30:01.want the promise to support our bishops as we move forward. The
:30:02. > :30:04.Church of England has finished two years of conversation about human
:30:05. > :30:08.sexuality, the bishops will be thinking about what is next. As
:30:09. > :30:13.members of the Church of England, married gay and lesbian people, we
:30:14. > :30:17.wanted them to be encouraged and to lead the Church forward in a
:30:18. > :30:19.positive direction that would include gay and lesbian people. That
:30:20. > :30:31.is what we want. Peter we are asking if churches are
:30:32. > :30:36.behind the times? The point of churches is to be behind the times.
:30:37. > :30:40.As far as I see it this is another wind-up designed to lure
:30:41. > :30:43.conservatives into an elephant traps or they come out shouting say you
:30:44. > :30:48.cannot do this or that and then they are made to look foolish, like
:30:49. > :30:51.bigots and homophobes. This is another of these thorny battles
:30:52. > :31:00.which hardly affects anybody. If the church were worried about this they
:31:01. > :31:05.would not have given up on gay marriage. Once you have given that
:31:06. > :31:09.up anything goes and it has. For me it's not an issue and yet another of
:31:10. > :31:15.these occasions where the church is being lowered into an argument it
:31:16. > :31:20.doesn't need. Father Andrew, is this a wind-up? It is about enabling the
:31:21. > :31:23.church to be honest about itself and what people believe about themselves
:31:24. > :31:27.and God and the relationship with him and to live their lives as
:31:28. > :31:32.faithful Christians in this country. This is a very serious and important
:31:33. > :31:36.issue to us as gay and lesbian people, it's part of our whole lives
:31:37. > :31:42.and our experience of ourselves. Is the church as accepting of civil
:31:43. > :31:46.partnerships, why did you feel the need to get married? I believe in
:31:47. > :31:50.marriage and I want to be married to my husband which I know I am. Civil
:31:51. > :31:54.partnerships were a second-best which was offered to the gay and
:31:55. > :31:59.lesbian community and I believe in equality is a quality, it's not a
:32:00. > :32:04.separate water fountain for you to have whilst I keep that one, it's
:32:05. > :32:07.all we have the same thing. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown do you think the
:32:08. > :32:14.church 's liberal enough? The Church of England is considered fairly
:32:15. > :32:19.liberal. I admire the church, I think they are pioneers when it
:32:20. > :32:26.comes to, especially sexual rights and sexual preferences and love and
:32:27. > :32:30.so on. No other faith, no other part of the Christian faith has been
:32:31. > :32:35.quite as enlightened. I think it's a bit like the Labour Party now, those
:32:36. > :32:38.who want to go on with this extraordinary example they are
:32:39. > :32:43.setting and those who cannot live with it, mainly African bishops and
:32:44. > :32:48.others, who are much more conservative. I think a split is
:32:49. > :32:52.inevitable. But I have admired the church for a very long time and
:32:53. > :33:00.sometimes wished people in my faith, leaders in my faith learnt something
:33:01. > :33:05.from them. Alison Ruoff, we had the Bishop of Grantham becoming the
:33:06. > :33:10.first bishop to declare he is in a gay relationship, it says something
:33:11. > :33:15.if senior leaders are reluctant to say they are in a gay relationship.
:33:16. > :33:19.I think it says a lot but I am sorry, I did not know about it but
:33:20. > :33:25.that doesn't mean anything. I just think the house of Bishops, you
:33:26. > :33:32.talked about the College of Bishops which is all bishops, the house of
:33:33. > :33:36.Bishops are the dioceses and the archbishops, I think they are
:33:37. > :33:40.cowardly and not prepared to stand up for Bible truth. It is plain
:33:41. > :33:47.that, sexuality is wrong. Marriage is between a man and a women. Mainly
:33:48. > :33:52.for having children. May I? I think there are a variety of
:33:53. > :33:56.interpretations of scripture and you hold a conservative traditional one.
:33:57. > :34:02.It could not be clearer. There is a lively debate in the people of the
:34:03. > :34:06.church of England and more widely about what the Scripture means and
:34:07. > :34:10.how they are applied. We both know well that 40 years ago the same
:34:11. > :34:17.arguments you are now making were made about women in the ordained
:34:18. > :34:27.ministry. Women in the ministry, it's not... It's not quite so clear
:34:28. > :34:31.and you cannot equate the two. Homosexual marriage, it is
:34:32. > :34:35.absolutely clear as anything in Scripture and the church is
:34:36. > :34:41.definitely going to go to a split if it carries on. We have an Archbishop
:34:42. > :34:46.of Canterbury who, very nice man as indeed all the bishops are, but they
:34:47. > :34:51.like to be liked and they like to be loved and he is not prepared to
:34:52. > :34:57.stand up and say no we will not go down this route. Which is incredibly
:34:58. > :35:05.sad for the Church of England and for the nation. Yasmin you are
:35:06. > :35:10.shaking your head. It is not sad, look at what is happening in Uganda,
:35:11. > :35:15.the bishops rejecting homosexuality in the way they do, there is now the
:35:16. > :35:21.most terrible persecution of gay people. I would never go with that.
:35:22. > :35:24.Once public attitudes are encouraged in a certain way, the great thing
:35:25. > :35:30.about this church, every single religion that I know of has this ban
:35:31. > :35:34.on homosexuality and has all sorts of things. These were historical
:35:35. > :35:43.religions in historical times and places. The good thing about faith
:35:44. > :35:48.which moves and changes and adapts is that it means something to the
:35:49. > :35:53.people. Peter? It cannot move and change because of what it is based
:35:54. > :35:56.on. You think it is nonsense but I don't, faith is based on what
:35:57. > :36:03.Christians in this case believed to be the Word of God. You are missing
:36:04. > :36:12.my point before I have made it, which is characteristic of you but
:36:13. > :36:21.wait a second. I will refer to the words of Christ himself referred to
:36:22. > :36:26.in the Gospels, the Church of England portrayed it in the 1960s,
:36:27. > :36:29.millions of people's lives have changed as a result of the collapse
:36:30. > :36:33.of the Christian churches and society on the issue of lifelong
:36:34. > :36:37.marriage. It's an enormous issue affecting almost every family in the
:36:38. > :36:41.country and every school and most every aspect of life. But nobody
:36:42. > :36:46.says anything about it whilst we argue about a tiny minority issue as
:36:47. > :36:52.to whether bishops can or cannot be homosexual which doesn't interest me
:36:53. > :36:58.in the slightest. This is just not about just bishops. I was in a
:36:59. > :37:02.meeting were similar claims are made and gay people were blamed for
:37:03. > :37:10.poverty on council estates. I did not say anything remotely like that.
:37:11. > :37:13.Because we want to be in faithful long-term committed relationships
:37:14. > :37:17.which is a good thing, surely? But that made us responsible for the
:37:18. > :37:22.breakdown of heterosexual marriage. That is nonsense. All we are arguing
:37:23. > :37:30.is that we should be allowed to have our relationships honoured,
:37:31. > :37:34.respected. We are joined by Tracey Byrne from the Lesbian and Gay
:37:35. > :37:38.Christian Movement, you have been hearing what we have been talking
:37:39. > :37:43.about, your feelings on the churches attitude towards gay people and
:37:44. > :37:47.marriage is? Thank you for having me, I believe it's time for the
:37:48. > :37:51.church to move ahead. What I would not agree is that this is about
:37:52. > :37:55.following the fashion of the land. It seems to me it is time for the
:37:56. > :37:58.church to move for a number of reasons, not least because
:37:59. > :38:02.significant numbers of people are being harmed by the current position
:38:03. > :38:05.and some of the views some people have been expressing. People are
:38:06. > :38:11.being harmed, put off the Christian faith. The Lesbian and Gay Christian
:38:12. > :38:15.Movement has numerous examples of people who say I cannot continue to
:38:16. > :38:20.belong to a church like that. I don't find it attractive or
:38:21. > :38:25.authentic. It's an urgent issue for the mission of the church. Let me
:38:26. > :38:29.pick up on the point being made that this is causing harm and putting
:38:30. > :38:33.people off the Christian faith? That might be so but if the Bible was
:38:34. > :38:38.taught faithfully week by week by every cleric in the church we would
:38:39. > :38:45.not be in this mess but it is not. God is a God of love and nothing of
:38:46. > :38:49.his, not of the other side of his character comes in which is about
:38:50. > :38:53.how he wants like to be conducted, what he wants which is best for all
:38:54. > :38:59.of us which is marriage between a man and a woman. And that we live by
:39:00. > :39:05.the Bible. Do you think gay marriage should be banned? It is not
:39:06. > :39:10.relevant, it is not marriage. I am married. You have gone against the
:39:11. > :39:15.church. I followed my conscience as a Christian. But you decided to
:39:16. > :39:21.break the rules. Can you imagine the pain you are causing by speaking
:39:22. > :39:27.like that? We are not being seen as human beings with feelings. We are
:39:28. > :39:36.seen as some kind of issue, problem. We want to be ourselves, and live
:39:37. > :39:45.the lives we wanted. Why be a cleric then? Because I believe in Jesus
:39:46. > :39:48.Christ. I want to sure that faith. If the teachings and principles were
:39:49. > :39:53.there in the first place why do you feel the need to go against those?
:39:54. > :39:58.You knew what was laid down as the law, the rules, what makes you think
:39:59. > :40:03.you want to change it from within? I asked my husband to marry me on
:40:04. > :40:07.Valentine's Day 2014, we had dinner, I got down on one knee and asked him
:40:08. > :40:16.to marry me. The bishops had not said they were going to ban us from
:40:17. > :40:19.marrying, they did it the next day and I had already said on Facebook
:40:20. > :40:24.that he said yes. Nobody had any idea, it was out of the blue. Then I
:40:25. > :40:29.realised it was more important for me to do the right thing by my
:40:30. > :40:33.husband because he wanted to marry me and our relationship. What would
:40:34. > :40:38.you say to someone in the clergy who wants to get married now and the
:40:39. > :40:42.rules are in place? I would urge caution because the church
:40:43. > :40:55.persecutes people who marry in a very significant way. What you mean
:40:56. > :41:00.by persecution? Discipline? It refuses to acknowledge people who
:41:01. > :41:04.are already married, it refuses to consider people who were not give
:41:05. > :41:08.explicit assurances that they will never marry which is bizarre. If you
:41:09. > :41:12.ask a 20-year-old what you will do for the next 60 years you have to
:41:13. > :41:17.promise to never marry which is unkind and unrealistic. Let's find
:41:18. > :41:21.out what the viewers have been seeing, thank you for getting in
:41:22. > :41:23.touch. A lot of messages saying the church is behind the times and it's
:41:24. > :42:09.about showing love for all. Interesting thoughts, Alison, one of
:42:10. > :42:15.the messages I think it was from Juliet seeing the church needs to
:42:16. > :42:19.open its arms. It feels as if when Andrew speaks it doesn't. I would
:42:20. > :42:23.take issue with that in as much as we would welcome anybody and
:42:24. > :42:26.everybody but to be fair and truthful in teaching the Word of
:42:27. > :42:34.God. Somebody said the Bible is irrelevant, we have not moved on.
:42:35. > :42:38.The Bible says Jesus Christ is the Lord of yesterday, today and the
:42:39. > :42:44.future. That is scripture. I just feel we cannot try and say we have
:42:45. > :42:57.moved on, it isn't irrelevant. God 's Word is the authority. Peter? And
:42:58. > :43:02.will get his way, -- and you will get his way. I did not say it's a
:43:03. > :43:06.good thing but it will happen. This is the trend of the times, by that
:43:07. > :43:10.time the Church of England will have no relevance. I am going to
:43:11. > :43:14.interrupt all of you simply because I am being told we are out of time.
:43:15. > :43:18.I am sorry because we could carry on this conversation, I wish you all
:43:19. > :43:20.the best, thank you for being part of this panel.
:43:21. > :43:22.The sight of migrants being rescued after desperate journeys
:43:23. > :43:24.across the Mediterranean are, sadly, a familiar
:43:25. > :43:27.So too are the conditions at the so-called Jungle
:43:28. > :43:30.On Friday, campaigners claimed they had identified almost 400
:43:31. > :43:32.refugee children living there who are vulnerable
:43:33. > :43:35.and at risk, but are eligible to come to the UK.
:43:36. > :43:37.The Government, however, remains resolute that there can be
:43:38. > :43:52.Figures from the United Nations indicate that 2016 has been the
:43:53. > :43:59.deadliest year on record for refugees crossing to Europe over the
:44:00. > :44:06.Mediterranean. Pictures of the three-year-old Syrian boy washed up
:44:07. > :44:18.on the beach brought the world's attention to the crisis. Since the
:44:19. > :44:24.death of and average of 11 men women and children are perishing every
:44:25. > :44:28.single day over the last 12 months. Campaigners say that almost 400
:44:29. > :44:31.refugee children living in the so-called jungle migrant camp in
:44:32. > :44:37.Calais are eligible to come to the UK to join their families. A protest
:44:38. > :44:42.outside the Home Office on Friday urged the government to take action.
:44:43. > :44:47.It was attended by faith leaders and high profile activists such as
:44:48. > :44:54.Juliet Stevenson. It strikes me as very, very tragic that hundreds more
:44:55. > :44:59.children have lost their lives whose names we don't know. His photographs
:45:00. > :45:05.were not taken. Who knows what their destiny would have been if they had
:45:06. > :45:09.had a chance to live. At a cabinet meeting last week ministers agreed
:45:10. > :45:13.that serious curbs on immigration were essential. However Home
:45:14. > :45:20.Secretary Amber Rudd says the UK is on track to resettle 20,000 Syrian
:45:21. > :45:25.refugees by 2020. Germany expects to take in 300,000 refugees this year
:45:26. > :45:27.alone. The charity refugee action says the UK must go further and
:45:28. > :45:30.faster. We are rejoined now by poet
:45:31. > :45:35.and broadcaster Lemn Sissay, and by journalist and columnist
:45:36. > :45:45.Angela Epstein. Yasmin, have we done enough to help
:45:46. > :45:53.the migrants in Calais? No, we have not. When Cameron was in power, he
:45:54. > :45:58.said we would take 4000. That was about 18 months ago. We have not
:45:59. > :46:02.taken any of those. But the children are the biggest worry, and some of
:46:03. > :46:07.them actually have relatives here, some of them have homes to come to,
:46:08. > :46:11.and many Syrians I know, particularly Syrian families, have
:46:12. > :46:15.offered to foster these children. So I don't understand how we can sign
:46:16. > :46:19.up to a treaty which we signed up to... Lets not talk about migrants,
:46:20. > :46:24.we are talking about refugees. People from Syria, most of them,
:46:25. > :46:30.well, we know, they are basic refugees -- they are refugees by the
:46:31. > :46:34.basic definition of what refugees. Peter? They are not refugees because
:46:35. > :46:38.they long ago reached a safe country in the shape of Turkey. What they
:46:39. > :46:41.became when they left Turkey and tried quite reasonably, and I don't
:46:42. > :46:46.in any way denigrate their ambitions to move to a more prosperous part of
:46:47. > :46:50.the world, but what they became when they left Turkey was migrants. They
:46:51. > :46:55.seek to come here. There are legal ways of coming to this country
:46:56. > :46:59.involving applying for entry under legal forms, you can do that or you
:47:00. > :47:06.can set up an illegal camp in France and put moral pressure on states to
:47:07. > :47:10.let UN and let you jump the queue. It is unfair on the people who have
:47:11. > :47:16.gone through the process properly. What about the children? Sorry,
:47:17. > :47:22.Yasmin, let me just... I'm sorry, I had to correct this... What about
:47:23. > :47:26.the children fleeing Syria, fleeing violence and persecution, in this
:47:27. > :47:35.so-called Jungle camp? Why are they there? Why are they in this place
:47:36. > :47:40.known to be dangerous and squalid? It's their fault? How did they get
:47:41. > :47:43.there? I think anybody with a shred of humanity would weep bitterly at
:47:44. > :47:48.the sight of any child, particularly the most vulnerable in society,
:47:49. > :47:53.being in this desperate situation. Our knee jerk moral responses that
:47:54. > :47:57.we had to help, but we have to have a manage response. For example,
:47:58. > :48:03.there are a lot of comparisons with the Kindertransport whether British
:48:04. > :48:08.God offered refuge to Jewish children during the Second World War
:48:09. > :48:12.-- the Kindertransport, whether British government offered. But
:48:13. > :48:15.support had to be offered by private individuals or organisations to act
:48:16. > :48:20.as a guarantor for the children who came here. They were fully in
:48:21. > :48:23.desperate circumstances. Nobody is suggesting that children should be
:48:24. > :48:31.left to fend for themselves. I agree with Peter, Turkey or where they
:48:32. > :48:35.come to from Syria and beyond is a very long way from Calais. From a
:48:36. > :48:38.cultural position, if someone is to be in that terrible position us to
:48:39. > :48:42.become a refugee, which is obviously different from being an economic
:48:43. > :48:48.migrant, surely there needs to be some placement in a country that is
:48:49. > :48:52.somehow culturally more similar so that even if that is for a short
:48:53. > :48:57.space of time, the reabsorption will be better afterwards. So are you
:48:58. > :49:03.saying that people who want to fully or go to another country, we have to
:49:04. > :49:08.determine which countries they go to. People have been migrating...
:49:09. > :49:13.People have always migrated. I migrated the moment I came out of my
:49:14. > :49:18.mother's womb into the open air. Migration is that the heart of who
:49:19. > :49:22.we are as natural human beings. My patriotism, my love of being
:49:23. > :49:25.British, I was born here in the villages of Lancashire, is
:49:26. > :49:31.exemplified by how open I am to people coming to this country. It is
:49:32. > :49:35.a different station. I am strengthened, not weakened, by
:49:36. > :49:41.people coming to this country. Countries do not have a limitless
:49:42. > :49:48.capacity... What is the limit, Peter? I would say it is defined by
:49:49. > :49:52.what we can take in the form of housing, employment, public
:49:53. > :49:56.services, health services, schools, and also, this is very important, in
:49:57. > :50:00.our ability to absorb when people come from other cultures, they will
:50:01. > :50:05.absorb and integrative given the chance. But if there is a constant
:50:06. > :50:09.flow, a constant flow of migration, it is much harder for existing
:50:10. > :50:13.migrants to integrate, and for the country to integrate them. Many of
:50:14. > :50:17.the people most concerned about the level of migration that this country
:50:18. > :50:21.is currently undergoing people who migrated here in the past and see
:50:22. > :50:28.their own position made worse. We are talking about refugee children.
:50:29. > :50:34.You have had your say, can I talk? Actually, we are. We are talking
:50:35. > :50:43.about refugee children. Address my point.
:50:44. > :50:46.ALL TALK AT ONCE. Peter, I need to talk. So do I. Why are they
:50:47. > :50:51.refugees? Yasmin is responding. Just repeating something that is not
:50:52. > :50:55.true. Let me remind you that when Jewish people came, the papers said
:50:56. > :51:01.they were aliens, the word alien came into use when Jewish people
:51:02. > :51:09.were coming over. What is the point? You are not making any sense. Alfred
:51:10. > :51:15.Dubs has said consistently and persistently, we have not taken the
:51:16. > :51:19.refugees that as Europeans, whether in the EU or not, we have a
:51:20. > :51:24.responsibility to take. And the Government has said it will take
:51:25. > :51:30.20,000 from Syria. But they have not taken them, that is the point. We
:51:31. > :51:36.are breaking word. Yasmin uses the word responsibility, which is key to
:51:37. > :51:40.the discussion. We are using words like crisis and responsibility. We
:51:41. > :51:45.are not talking about economic migrants looking for prosperity in
:51:46. > :51:48.other countries. We talk about moral responsibility, but with
:51:49. > :51:52.responsibility comes the ability to be able to provide accordingly. If
:51:53. > :51:57.you do not have a managed response, or the protocol in place, and it is
:51:58. > :52:01.all very well saying Cameron... And you are right, the promise has not
:52:02. > :52:06.been honoured, but there has to be the structure in place before we go
:52:07. > :52:12.about... Who's fault is a manage response? If we have refugees coming
:52:13. > :52:16.here and there is not a managed response, why are we blaming the
:52:17. > :52:20.refugees and while we're not calling the Government two accounts, calling
:52:21. > :52:24.the education system to account, children's services to account?
:52:25. > :52:31.Those are the places where we should be asking to provide... We should be
:52:32. > :52:34.blaming the own Government which is created by several unnecessary and
:52:35. > :52:38.stupid wars the conditions under which people fleeing from
:52:39. > :52:42.Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and to Libya, where we destroyed the
:52:43. > :52:45.existing government. There is a heavy responsibility on our
:52:46. > :52:49.government and those who supported it. But they are not refugees once
:52:50. > :52:53.they have reached a safe country. Let's hear from the viewers, we are
:52:54. > :52:56.talking about whether we are doing enough. You have been having
:52:57. > :53:03.reactions on the other subjects as well, Tommy? It has been meaty. Lots
:53:04. > :53:04.of sympathy for immigrants but lots of people are saying what kind of
:53:05. > :54:01.stretch will it be? I am sure Yasmin would agree.
:54:02. > :54:07.Yasmin, France is a safe country. The children in Calais would be safe
:54:08. > :54:12.there. But they have families here. 350 them, as Alf Dubs has said, have
:54:13. > :54:17.family connections to this country. How can we have a refugee policy,
:54:18. > :54:22.and I agree with you that, you know, when families are able to vouch for
:54:23. > :54:28.those children and look after them, what is holding this back? We have
:54:29. > :54:33.not done our duty by them. Angela? This might be a curveball, we have
:54:34. > :54:40.an overburdened foreign aid budget. Why don't we spend it on helping a
:54:41. > :54:45.foreign situation, if you like, in a broader sense. There has to be money
:54:46. > :54:49.in the pot to do this. We are spending... Sending money to the
:54:50. > :54:54.Indian space programme, I know that is often used as an example, but we
:54:55. > :54:58.have to have a protocol. If the husbandry is there and it can be
:54:59. > :55:02.done properly... It is one of the very few things that I praise this
:55:03. > :55:06.Government over, it spends large amounts on helping refugees from the
:55:07. > :55:10.Syrian wall near to where their homes are in the hope they can come
:55:11. > :55:14.home, which is much more sensible than what they are currently doing,
:55:15. > :55:19.encouraging people smugglers and falling for their public relations.
:55:20. > :55:21.If the entire Jungle emptied tonight and everybody in its came to
:55:22. > :55:29.Britain, within three weeks it would be there again in the same place.
:55:30. > :55:34.People smugglers carry on... Lemn, we have 30 seconds. I pride myself
:55:35. > :55:40.on being British and on openness and the fact that we have constantly had
:55:41. > :55:46.immigration in this country as part of what keeps us alive and healthy.
:55:47. > :55:50.Thank you for your thoughts, Lemn, Peter, Angela and Yasmin, to all of
:55:51. > :55:57.you today, it has been amazing how you have been getting into a gent
:55:58. > :56:02.taking part. Two players out is Shaun Escoffery, singing a song from
:56:03. > :56:13.his new album, Evergreen. Live Your Life. Here we go.
:56:14. > :56:22.# Uni glove. # Nobody loves you.
:56:23. > :56:28.# You need touch. # Nobody feels you.
:56:29. > :56:33.# You need soul, but nobody hears you.
:56:34. > :56:41.# But nobody hears you, nobody's near you.
:56:42. > :56:44.# You need site, but there's no want to guide you.
:56:45. > :56:54.# Uni glides, but darkness surrounds you. -- you need lighter.
:56:55. > :56:58.# You need to add, when it feels like you're choking.
:56:59. > :57:06.# And nothing is working. # You've got to your life.
:57:07. > :57:14.# Be happy with who you are. # Be happy with who you are.
:57:15. > :57:19.# Don't waste time. # Be happy with what you got.
:57:20. > :57:24.# Don't worry about what you are not.
:57:25. > :57:30.# You tears when no words can be spoken.
:57:31. > :57:36.# You need joy, when everything's broken.
:57:37. > :57:41.# Uni 's heart, when it feels like you're falling.
:57:42. > :57:53.# And no one is calling, no one is calling.
:57:54. > :57:56.# You know everyone loses their way. # Trysting in things that just fade
:57:57. > :58:06.away. # Happiness is just a breath away.
:58:07. > :58:13.# So just breathe. # And live your life.
:58:14. > :58:19.# Year. # Who you are, who you are.
:58:20. > :58:27.# Don't waste time, don't waste time.
:58:28. > :58:35.# What you got. # Livio, live your...
:58:36. > :58:41.# Be happy with who you are. # Be happy with who you are.
:58:42. > :58:47.# Don't waste time, don't waste time. The rig be happy with what you
:58:48. > :58:59.got, don't worry about what you're not.
:59:00. > :59:04.CHEERING AND APPLAUSE I think they liked it.
:59:05. > :59:09.With your favourite Radio 2 presenters, and an amazing line-up