:00:00. > :00:11.On today's programme: British troops who served in Iraq
:00:12. > :00:13.and Afghanistan should not face vexatious legal claims,
:00:14. > :00:19.Should they be immune from prosecution completely?
:00:20. > :00:22.It was swinging in their day, but are the baby
:00:23. > :00:25.boomers of the '60s having it too good now at the expense
:00:26. > :00:38.There is nothing left for us. House prices are skyrocketing. The Baker
:00:39. > :00:40.is not affordable. Nothing is affordable and everyone is stuck in
:00:41. > :00:46.debt, debt, debt. Two police forces say they're open
:00:47. > :00:49.to Muslim women officers wearing A leading Muslim, though,
:00:50. > :00:53.says it's time for Islam And Olympic champion
:00:54. > :00:55.Nicola Adams tells Samanthi Flanagan how her pathway
:00:56. > :01:02.to boxing glory began. My mum was doing aerobics class and
:01:03. > :01:05.she couldn't get a baby-sitter so she took it down to an after-school
:01:06. > :01:08.boxing class that was at the same time as the aerobics. That was it. I
:01:09. > :01:18.absolutely loved it. Our panel is here, raring to go,
:01:19. > :01:30.and so is Tommy, ready to share Good morning. Good morning. We are
:01:31. > :01:34.poised for you guys to get in touch. You can contact as in a number of
:01:35. > :01:37.ways. One of which is the Facebook page. Post a comment on that. Or
:01:38. > :02:05.tweet us. Or Corliss: -- call us: Or text us: Or email: You can film
:02:06. > :02:09.videos and send that in there as well. Put your name if you get in
:02:10. > :02:10.touch so we know who you are. And we do like the video messages. Thank
:02:11. > :02:14.you. Ajmal Masroor is an Imam
:02:15. > :02:17.and broadcaster. Frederick Forsyth is a best-selling
:02:18. > :02:19.author and former spy. John Dalhuisen is the director
:02:20. > :02:24.of Europe and central Asia And Jake Wallis Simons
:02:25. > :02:38.is associate global editor Frederick, we are asking whether
:02:39. > :02:44.soldiers need protection from prosecution. Well, yes. If you are
:02:45. > :02:48.asking whether they need some kind of carte blanche permission to shoot
:02:49. > :02:51.anybody they want, any time, any place, including women and children
:02:52. > :02:55.and prisoners with their hands up, the answer is no. But what we are
:02:56. > :03:01.talking about here is allegations, some of which are very vague, some
:03:02. > :03:04.of which may be mendacious by people that are greedy, looking for
:03:05. > :03:10.compensation, about alleged offences 13 years ago. That is absolute
:03:11. > :03:14.nonsense and what is more nonsense is the government, with our
:03:15. > :03:18.taxpayers' money, is funding it. When politicians say they are trying
:03:19. > :03:21.to stop it, they are talking poppycock because they can stop it
:03:22. > :03:25.any time by cutting off the money supply. These lawyers and bounty
:03:26. > :03:29.hunters wouldn't work for nothing and they are just doing it for
:03:30. > :03:33.money. What message would it sent its troops were immune to
:03:34. > :03:37.prosecution? It would undeniably send the wrong one. Any civilised
:03:38. > :03:41.society needs to make it unambiguously clear that certain
:03:42. > :03:46.kinds of behaviour, torturing detainees, executing soldiers in the
:03:47. > :03:50.act of surrender, is utterly unacceptable. That fundamental
:03:51. > :03:54.principle isn't wholly in question. What is at issue is the kind of
:03:55. > :03:58.mechanism you need to have in place to make sure that kind of behaviour
:03:59. > :04:02.is investigated and prosecuted. What we had before the inquiry that is so
:04:03. > :04:07.contested now, was a system that didn't deliver that and now we have
:04:08. > :04:10.got a system that is delivering it, but with the very serious
:04:11. > :04:15.allegations of abuse of process that we have seen in the last few months
:04:16. > :04:20.coming out. Theresa May says she wants to and vexatious claims
:04:21. > :04:26.against troops. It is important to be very clear about this. Nobody is
:04:27. > :04:28.saying that Rogue troops accused of serious misconduct like murder and
:04:29. > :04:33.rape should be allowed to get away with it and nobody is arguing that.
:04:34. > :04:36.Nobody is saying we should withdraw from the Geneva Convention. There
:04:37. > :04:40.should be accountability and military trials and tribunal should
:04:41. > :04:44.exist. What we are trying to do is cut off the avenues that have been
:04:45. > :04:48.abused by lawyers that have been discredited. There is one big law
:04:49. > :04:51.firm that has been closed down and is itself under investigation over
:04:52. > :05:03.allegations of bribing Iraqis to bear false witness against our
:05:04. > :05:06.troops, who have brought 1000 cases that have been thrown out, proven to
:05:07. > :05:08.be mendacious and wrong, to stop that happening and close down the
:05:09. > :05:11.avenues they are using to do that. The reason is that the men and women
:05:12. > :05:14.putting their lives on the line for us, going into combat and a very
:05:15. > :05:18.stressful situations, they are being hounded and dragged through years
:05:19. > :05:20.and years of uncertainty and harassment, investigation after
:05:21. > :05:25.investigation. These people have been cleared once already and it is
:05:26. > :05:29.not fair. It is unacceptable if the processes and correct, but do you
:05:30. > :05:35.think troops should be immune from prosecution? We need to look at a
:05:36. > :05:38.way to give them crown immunity from these sorts of prosecutions. That
:05:39. > :05:42.doesn't mean that we will not in some way be under the Geneva
:05:43. > :05:48.Convention or international human rights law, but it does mean they
:05:49. > :05:52.will have more protection than they have got. How does that work? For
:05:53. > :05:55.instance the proposal to withdraw from the Human Rights Act and
:05:56. > :06:00.replace it with a British Bill of Rights means we will no longer have
:06:01. > :06:03.soldiers pursued by European law, which is designed for peacetime, and
:06:04. > :06:07.not to be applied on the battlefield. They sit with the
:06:08. > :06:13.government needs to look at all the different avenues that it can to
:06:14. > :06:18.stop these mendacious inquiries and give our soldiers the respect they
:06:19. > :06:22.deserve. -- basically the government needs to. There are 2000 cases being
:06:23. > :06:27.investigated at the moment. Why do you think there were so many claims
:06:28. > :06:33.against British troops? Accusing the legal system is wrong. But so is
:06:34. > :06:37.abuse of innocent people or what we call on the Geneva Convention by
:06:38. > :06:42.soldiers, that is wrong. Two wrongs never make a right. We need a fair
:06:43. > :06:46.legal system, fair justice that transcends beyond our emotional plea
:06:47. > :06:50.for protecting the troops. I don't think the troops should have
:06:51. > :06:53.immunity. Nobody should. The legal system, everybody should be
:06:54. > :06:58.accountable in front of the law. What we have now is actually a
:06:59. > :07:04.bigger problem. The politicians who decided to invade countries
:07:05. > :07:07.illegally, they are walking around scot-free, not accountable, not
:07:08. > :07:10.being prosecuted. I would go one step further. Those politicians
:07:11. > :07:14.should be brought to account and tried in The Hague for war crimes.
:07:15. > :07:17.Especially a few that I wouldn't want to name yet, but most
:07:18. > :07:22.importantly the politicians who made the decision and put our soldiers at
:07:23. > :07:24.risk, but also in the eyes and the hands of the potential abuse, the
:07:25. > :07:30.responsibility lies with the politicians. I stand by Amnesty's
:07:31. > :07:36.stance which is that nobody should get away with torture, abuse,
:07:37. > :07:42.execution, any of those crimes that any soldier, even if it is an
:07:43. > :07:47.allegation, they must be investigated thoroughly. In our
:07:48. > :07:52.studio is the top legal officer in Iraqi in 2003. This morning we have
:07:53. > :07:54.heard from Tony Blair, who has condemned the prosecutions, the
:07:55. > :07:59.vexatious claims made against soldiers. Can we get your view,
:08:00. > :08:04.Lieutenant Colonel? Good morning. Tony Blair's view, we must take that
:08:05. > :08:08.with a degree of caution because he doesn't want anyone pursuing anyone
:08:09. > :08:12.for potential war crimes. Let us just park that on one side. A frenzy
:08:13. > :08:31.is being whipped up by the government at the moment
:08:32. > :08:35.about spurious claims. Who says the claims are spurious? So far the
:08:36. > :08:38.government has settled 326 cases, at a cost of ?20 million. By anyone's
:08:39. > :08:40.standards that is an awful lot of abuse and ?20 million is a lot of
:08:41. > :08:43.money. The government has only won one case, which was shown to be
:08:44. > :08:45.spurious. You have got to be very careful about saying these are all
:08:46. > :08:50.spurious cases. The right people being pursued? Can I one point about
:08:51. > :08:54.interrogation techniques? I have looked into interrogation and there
:08:55. > :08:58.is consistency on the witness evidence. What appears might have
:08:59. > :09:03.happened is that the government have allowed interrogators to use illegal
:09:04. > :09:08.techniques in interrogation. Let me clarify that. Physical, sexual and
:09:09. > :09:12.religious abuse. The government know full well who was interrogated and
:09:13. > :09:16.they have video recordings of those interrogations, and to say they are
:09:17. > :09:19.all spurious on the one hand, when they could cross-reference those
:09:20. > :09:24.claims, I think that needs to be clarified. Can I also say that these
:09:25. > :09:27.allegations are not just made by law firms? Someone made by me because I
:09:28. > :09:35.was a senior officer during the Iraqi war. -- some were made by me.
:09:36. > :09:40.Others were made by senior officers, some independently. Others were made
:09:41. > :09:45.by the Red Cross. And the truth in the SAS, Ben Griffin, is under a
:09:46. > :09:50.High Court injunction because he wants to speak out against abuse but
:09:51. > :10:04.the Ministry of Defence are not allowing him. -- eight member of the
:10:05. > :10:07.troops in the SAS. Can they not investigate themselves? If the
:10:08. > :10:11.Ministry of Defence sign off on unlawful tactics then they will
:10:12. > :10:16.never investigate themselves. You have got to treat all of this with a
:10:17. > :10:20.degree of caution. If the Ministry of Defence are implicated in some of
:10:21. > :10:25.these offences, then of course they want to see them finished off. In
:10:26. > :10:28.the case of Ben Griffin, who refused to soldier, they refused to
:10:29. > :10:31.court-martial him because his defence would have been look how
:10:32. > :10:36.they mistreated the prisoners, and they didn't want to go near that. It
:10:37. > :10:41.is also very important to note that our government did sell torture
:10:42. > :10:45.chambers and contracts to illegitimate and despotic regimes
:10:46. > :10:54.around the world. Our government was in cahoots with what he has just
:10:55. > :10:58.mentioned. What is most striking for me, is ask the Iraqis and Afghani
:10:59. > :11:07.is. Ask them their experiences on the ground. At Abu Ghraib, those
:11:08. > :11:12.images of prisoners being tortured, that will never go away from our
:11:13. > :11:15.minds. That needs to be investigated thoroughly and once and for all
:11:16. > :11:20.either the soldiers are exonerated or prosecuted. That is simple.
:11:21. > :11:24.Frederick? You have not mentioned three things. The three cases you
:11:25. > :11:28.have evoked are all Americans. Nothing to do with the British. We
:11:29. > :11:34.were not at Abu Ghraib. The other thing to mention are the rules of
:11:35. > :11:40.engagement. For an ordinary soldier with a rifle and someone sniping at
:11:41. > :11:44.him over that sand dune, the ROE is much more important than the Geneva
:11:45. > :11:50.Convention. He hasn't memorised the Geneva Convention but he will have
:11:51. > :11:54.memorised the ROE. The British ROEs are much more stringent than any
:11:55. > :11:58.other known fighting force in the world. Disciplined? Yes, and harshly
:11:59. > :12:04.enforced. And should be. Yes, but they are. The rules of how you
:12:05. > :12:07.behave on the High Street here and the rules of engagement on the
:12:08. > :12:11.battlefield have got to be different. They have got to be very
:12:12. > :12:14.clear. They will be different, they are different and there is nothing
:12:15. > :12:17.in human rights law that prevents them being different or necessarily
:12:18. > :12:22.restricted for the kind of things that need to be done. There is a
:12:23. > :12:25.massive convergence between international humanitarian law,
:12:26. > :12:26.human rights law, and sound common sense. There are certain things that
:12:27. > :12:42.you just cannot do to people that you have in your custody. What
:12:43. > :12:45.we have here is a series of instructions and rules that have not
:12:46. > :12:47.been clear and where they have been quite clear, they have nonetheless
:12:48. > :12:49.been highly problematic. There authorised techniques that people
:12:50. > :12:51.have done, believing they were fulfilling a legitimate order, which
:12:52. > :12:53.was not. What is the appropriate response? To sweep the entire issue
:12:54. > :13:02.under the carpet? That seems to be the desire of those the higher up in
:13:03. > :13:07.the chain you go. Is this -- as if this is to the credit of the armed
:13:08. > :13:11.forces. Or visit to find a mechanism that can identify the abuses and
:13:12. > :13:18.identify the systemic problems? This is why we have this system in the
:13:19. > :13:21.first place. Nobody is denying that there were serious abuses that need
:13:22. > :13:26.to be investigated but we need to acknowledge that there were hundreds
:13:27. > :13:30.if not thousands of spurious and vexatious allegations being brought
:13:31. > :13:33.against our troops the two reasons. One, to take advantage of public
:13:34. > :13:40.funding. We have seen tens of millions of pounds being hosed into
:13:41. > :13:44.unscrupulous lawyers' pockets. And two, to discredit the armed forces.
:13:45. > :13:49.Take this investigation, which was thrown out, and founded on
:13:50. > :13:54.deliberate and calculated lies. That took hundreds of pieces of evidence
:13:55. > :13:58.from Iraqis, saying that the British Army had somehow plunged down a load
:13:59. > :14:06.of farmers, while withholding evidence that they were not farmers
:14:07. > :14:09.but militants. What I am saying is that our soldiers deserve better
:14:10. > :14:14.than this. I am not saying they should be allowed to get away with
:14:15. > :14:19.murder or breaking the Geneva Convention or the rules of combat.
:14:20. > :14:23.We need to stop mendacious law firms bringing the sort of cases that they
:14:24. > :14:28.have been burning, dragging our soldiers through the mud, and
:14:29. > :14:31.ruining their lives in many cases, without them having the proper
:14:32. > :14:36.defence and gratitude that we should be giving them. So do you agree that
:14:37. > :14:40.soldiers should not be immune from prosecution. What you are looking
:14:41. > :14:43.for and asking for is more stringent rules and regulations governing
:14:44. > :14:49.legal firms. That is a very different discussion. We need to
:14:50. > :14:54.close down the avenues that they are using and exploiting to bring false
:14:55. > :14:57.claims against the armed forces. Firstly to line their pockets and
:14:58. > :15:00.secondly to do down the British Army.
:15:01. > :15:09.We agree that soldiers are not immune from prosecution as long as
:15:10. > :15:12.the system is watertight. If somebody a making an allegation,
:15:13. > :15:17.Britain and its legal standard is an amazing one in the world. It is
:15:18. > :15:23.respected by everybody. If our soldiers... They are turning it into
:15:24. > :15:27.a laughing stock. If our soldiers or anybody in our political system is
:15:28. > :15:32.accused of such a heinous crime, surely the best thing we should do
:15:33. > :15:36.is investigate it? That's right, but when the accusations are brought
:15:37. > :15:42.against our soldiers are clearly mendatious. Let the court decide
:15:43. > :15:48.that. For example, there were accusations that prisoners were left
:15:49. > :15:52.having to ask for water, there's been the Taliban bomb-maker
:15:53. > :15:56.sentenced to ten years for making bombs to blow up coalition forces
:15:57. > :16:02.and the British Army were accused of detaining him for a few weeks too
:16:03. > :16:08.long. Our legal system can do that. Please, I find it interesting what
:16:09. > :16:17.you are saying but I also find it interesting what our audience are
:16:18. > :16:22.saying. Lots of people are talking about the situations that British
:16:23. > :17:11.troops have to go through but they are not above the law.
:17:12. > :17:20.Tommy, thank you. Let's talk to Lt Col Nicholas Mercer. I hope you
:17:21. > :17:22.heard some of the comments there: Courage and stress, the environment
:17:23. > :17:27.that soldiers are in. The your reaction to what our viewers are
:17:28. > :17:31.saying? I hear what they are saying about stress on the battlefield and
:17:32. > :17:36.nobody kiss agrees with that. We took a cautious view, soldiers in
:17:37. > :17:41.the heat of battle we wouldn't go near it in terms of prosecuting. But
:17:42. > :17:45.once a man was reduced to capture they should be treated decently and
:17:46. > :17:49.the Army trained its soldiers to treat all soldiers with dignity and
:17:50. > :17:55.humanity. The vast majority of these cases are about abuse of either
:17:56. > :17:57.civilians or prisoners. We got it very badly wrong and it is
:17:58. > :18:01.absolutely right that that's brought before a court. There are two cases
:18:02. > :18:05.before the courts at the moment, because everyone mentioned
:18:06. > :18:09.Al-Sweady, which was spurious. But there was Karim Ali. Last week Sir
:18:10. > :18:15.George Newman was scathing about the way they behaved... I want to stay
:18:16. > :18:18.away from individual cases. This case is always bandied around,
:18:19. > :18:22.Al-Sweady. That's the one case found to be spurious. Everything else is
:18:23. > :18:25.well founded. People lose sight of that. Cedric, moving forward, when
:18:26. > :18:35.we have discussions like this and the Prime Minister says she wants to
:18:36. > :18:40.avoid vexatious claims, how is this going to affect the British Army?
:18:41. > :18:46.It's intended to demoralise. It is not accidental. What the Colonel
:18:47. > :18:50.hasn't mentioned is we haven't fought anybody a national uniform
:18:51. > :18:55.since the Falklands. The people in the Middle East weren't in uniform.
:18:56. > :19:04.They could all claim to be civilians. In Iraq we didn't fight
:19:05. > :19:09.them. We invaded their country, illegally. Put Tony Blair on trial.
:19:10. > :19:15.Don't put Corporal Smith on trial. I agree, put Tony Blair on trial. But
:19:16. > :19:18.they are not doing, that they are going for the Corporal, as usual.
:19:19. > :19:24.Our soldiers were fighting in British uniform. I didn't say that.
:19:25. > :19:29.I said we haven't fought against anybody in a national uniform since
:19:30. > :19:35.the Falklands, because they were tended to be civilians. What
:19:36. > :19:43.difference does that make? How are you to know which is which when he
:19:44. > :19:50.fires at you? So you so you detain and torture them and execute them? I
:19:51. > :19:54.didn't say that. The people they are in combat against can ten minutes
:19:55. > :20:00.later can say, I'm a civilian, and throw his Kalashnikov them. So you
:20:01. > :20:04.put them through a process, you don't execute them or torture them,
:20:05. > :20:08.and you face the courts. The soldier on the other side, the Isil side,
:20:09. > :20:14.can say, I wasn't a soldier. So what? Therefore I want ?50,000, if
:20:15. > :20:19.you would be so kind, because I was knocked on the head by a British
:20:20. > :20:25.soldier. I have full faith in our legal system and I believe our
:20:26. > :20:29.judges and courts can decide what claim is crazy and what is fantasy
:20:30. > :20:32.and what is real. Gentlemen, thank you very much. I'm going to carry
:20:33. > :20:43.on. Thank you for your comments as well. Do keep them coming in.
:20:44. > :20:46.A report by a think-tank this week says that young families
:20:47. > :20:49.are being ghettoised in inner city areas by the housing crisis.
:20:50. > :20:51.The Intergenerational Foundation claims there is a two-tier society
:20:52. > :20:54.in which young adults struggle to get on the property ladder.
:20:55. > :20:56.Work and Pensions Secretary Damian Green has denied that the Government
:20:57. > :20:59.is being too generous to pensioners, but said that inter-generational
:21:00. > :21:01.fairness is an area that needs to be examined.
:21:02. > :21:02.So are the young being disadvantaged by
:21:03. > :21:12.With several recent studies finding that the younger generation are
:21:13. > :21:17.struggling with, housing prices, the job market and the cost of living,
:21:18. > :21:21.is the divide between generations greater than ever? We've come to
:21:22. > :21:25.Brixton, which has seen huge changes in a single generation, to find out
:21:26. > :21:31.what the people here think. The cost of living and of education is a lot
:21:32. > :21:36.higher. The wages and, they haven't gone up. When I was growing up it
:21:37. > :21:41.was tough, but it was more basic. There was less pressure. I went to
:21:42. > :21:44.uni for three years demand my Masters degree. As soon as I came
:21:45. > :21:48.out of University they asked me for experience. I don't have the
:21:49. > :21:53.experience. I paid for the studying. There are no opportunities for
:21:54. > :21:56.people like me. Education might with more redly available to us at
:21:57. > :22:01.university. My parents didn't go to university. I did. I think there are
:22:02. > :22:05.more opportunities for my daughter's generation in terms of education and
:22:06. > :22:08.in terms of movement. With all the opportunities that you've got here
:22:09. > :22:13.there is no reason for you to be going hungry or broke unless you're
:22:14. > :22:20.lazy. If you had the choice, would you rather have been working in the
:22:21. > :22:25.'60s and '70s or right now? Definitely, man. Houses were more
:22:26. > :22:29.affordable. There was more of a middle class then but now it is
:22:30. > :22:33.either the rich or the poor. If you could tap into the bank of mum to
:22:34. > :22:38.get you on the property ladder, would you? Could you? I couldn't and
:22:39. > :22:41.I wouldn't choose to. I think at the end of the life you want to look
:22:42. > :22:46.back and see the things that you've worked hard for yourself. It is
:22:47. > :22:50.obviously a huge help if our parents are able to leave us something so
:22:51. > :22:54.that we don't have to come into this world and start from scratch. It is
:22:55. > :22:58.really unfair if there's been generations before us, we are born
:22:59. > :23:03.into this world and have to try to get a basic need, a house. I don't
:23:04. > :23:08.see you should be given things on a plate. Therefore I don't see some
:23:09. > :23:14.great injustice in life. Get out there, work hard.
:23:15. > :23:16.Our final discussion - are the young being disadvantaged
:23:17. > :23:19.We are joined now by the musician and political
:23:20. > :23:22.Baroness Ros Altmann, a pensions and retirement expert,
:23:23. > :23:24.and by James Moore, who is deputy business editor
:23:25. > :23:32.Is it the older generation's fault that young people find it difficult
:23:33. > :23:40.I don't think it is necessarily the older generation's fault, but I do
:23:41. > :23:43.think been through all the austerity years and looked at the way the
:23:44. > :23:48.economy is going, it's been weighted towards the older generation in a
:23:49. > :23:54.very unfair way. If you look at the way benefits have been cut, out of
:23:55. > :23:57.all proportion been cut to the young whereas Lord Sugar still qualifies
:23:58. > :24:01.for winter fuel pay. You add in the issue of housing, where the cost of
:24:02. > :24:06.a deposit has gone through the roof and you can see what we've had
:24:07. > :24:10.during the years of austerity is a vast transfer of wealth from the
:24:11. > :24:15.young to the old. It is not a question of the young being lazy or
:24:16. > :24:20.not wanting to get up and work. They do work but they are having to work
:24:21. > :24:26.an awful lot harder and longer in terms of years to even get a shake
:24:27. > :24:30.of getting on the housing ladder. The property owning democracy that
:24:31. > :24:35.we talked about 20 years ago is dying, because the young just
:24:36. > :24:39.haven't got a chance any more. To me there is something slightly immoral
:24:40. > :24:41.when you've got some of the Rixest pensioners in society qualifying for
:24:42. > :24:46.these benefits whereas the young can't even get a roof over their
:24:47. > :24:51.head. Things like educational support allowances have been axed.
:24:52. > :24:57.That to me, for the poorest, is immoral. Ros, is that a fair picture
:24:58. > :25:00.to think that the wealth is weighted towards the older generation?
:25:01. > :25:03.Certainly the wealth is weighted towards the older generation but
:25:04. > :25:07.they are at the end of their working life. They've built up whatever
:25:08. > :25:11.they've got through all these years. In some respects, I think that older
:25:12. > :25:14.generations really are supporting younger generations. That's what
:25:15. > :25:17.families do. Older people wants to support their children. They want to
:25:18. > :25:23.support their grandchildren, but there's a bit of a failure of public
:25:24. > :25:27.policy here. The housing market has been stoked up by low interest
:25:28. > :25:32.rates, Bank of England policies trying to save the banks after the
:25:33. > :25:38.banking crisis, and, of course, we haven't built enough new homes. But
:25:39. > :25:41.a lot of older generations are being vilified in a way that I think is
:25:42. > :25:48.really dangerous for society. It worries me. First of all, the idea
:25:49. > :25:53.that all pensioners are extremely wealthy is simply a myth. About
:25:54. > :25:57.nearly half of pensioners are entitled to means-tested benefits.
:25:58. > :26:02.Only two or three per cent of pensioners are even in the 40% tax
:26:03. > :26:08.bracket. Most of them don't have these kind of high incomes that are
:26:09. > :26:15.perceived. We need to rebalance a little bit our thoughts. Morning
:26:16. > :26:20.Jermain. Good morning. Do young people have it worse now? Is this
:26:21. > :26:26.generation worse off than older ones? Young people have constantly
:26:27. > :26:36.pushed into a corner, it'sen franchised, underrepresented in
:26:37. > :26:40.politics. Scrapping, the rise in tuition fees and hiking it again.
:26:41. > :26:46.The EU referendum, young people pushed into a corner. It it is time
:26:47. > :26:52.to see how young people can get on the property ladder and have more of
:26:53. > :26:57.a say. Having more of a say and getting on the property ladder are
:26:58. > :27:00.two different things aren't tele? If you are under 30, you won't have a
:27:01. > :27:05.decent pension. You don't know if you are able to buy a house, they
:27:06. > :27:10.are shouldering the costs of older citizens. Can we get rid of the
:27:11. > :27:13.means test allegation. It wasn't actually the old aged pensioners who
:27:14. > :27:20.accorded themselves winter fuel allowance. It was Government, so not
:27:21. > :27:25.our fault. If you don't mind. As to housing, I would suggest you talk
:27:26. > :27:29.about supply and demand. In any capitalist system, which despite Mr
:27:30. > :27:33.Corbyn we still have, there will be always a problem with supply and
:27:34. > :27:36.demand if there's too much demand and not enough supply. If young
:27:37. > :27:40.people can't get on the property ladder it is probably because prices
:27:41. > :27:45.of houses are too high. And the reason for that is there are too few
:27:46. > :27:49.of them. So either endow the young, or build more houses. It is a
:27:50. > :27:52.failure of public policy as far as the housing market is concerned. But
:27:53. > :27:57.that's not something to blame older people for, as you say. This is a
:27:58. > :28:02.Government issue. It's a national issue. It doesn't benefit older
:28:03. > :28:08.people if house prices go up if that's where they are living. The
:28:09. > :28:11.fact is that your home is worth more does suggest that you're wealthier,
:28:12. > :28:16.but if you are living in the house it doesn't help your income. A lot
:28:17. > :28:19.of older people don't have huge incomes, but you would want in any
:28:20. > :28:25.society where there is an increasing number of older people who are going
:28:26. > :28:29.to live a lot longer to know that those who are leaving work have
:28:30. > :28:32.built up something to look after themselves in the future, otherwise
:28:33. > :28:36.younger people are going to have to find that money. Ross, you talked
:28:37. > :28:40.about vilification of the older generation. I don't think anyone is
:28:41. > :28:44.wanting to see that and is wanting that to happen. I don't think anyone
:28:45. > :28:47.on this panel, and I agree with you there's a failure of public policy,
:28:48. > :28:53.but if you want to talk about vilification it is the young who is
:28:54. > :28:56.invariably pictured as lazy, as scroungers, not having any get up
:28:57. > :28:58.and go and they should work for it. The fact is they are and they are
:28:59. > :29:11.having to. I agree. I agree. Most older people that I
:29:12. > :29:17.speak to tend to be very supportive of the young. That is how society
:29:18. > :29:22.works. Families now, there is a change, a shift, a gap in political
:29:23. > :29:26.ideologies. I have come across so many families, so many young people
:29:27. > :29:32.who voted to stay in the EU and my grandparents didn't want to, but who
:29:33. > :29:37.will it affect longer, leaving the EU? I believe young people need to
:29:38. > :29:41.have more of a say. I absolutely agree with you that young people are
:29:42. > :29:46.being vilified as lazy, not hard-working, not wanting to go out
:29:47. > :29:49.and work hard. We are trying to work hard but there is a system and
:29:50. > :29:54.structure in place preventing us from doing so. The economic
:29:55. > :29:57.consequences of Brexit, and there will be long-term consequences which
:29:58. > :30:02.we may not be seeing now, that will fall on the shoulders of the young.
:30:03. > :30:09.That was inevitable. It will fall on the shoulders of the young but what
:30:10. > :30:13.if we do rather well? I don't think we will, looking at the long-term
:30:14. > :30:19.economic indicators. I'm not in the middle of it campaign any more,
:30:20. > :30:22.nobody has an axe to grind. If you look at the economic agencies,
:30:23. > :30:26.long-term they say there will be a price to pay for Brexit and it will
:30:27. > :30:35.fall on the shoulders of the gun. What is being interpreted is how the
:30:36. > :30:40.younger generation... You are being mischievous, Frederick! It is the
:30:41. > :30:44.provocation! The younger generation feels the older generation is
:30:45. > :30:47.influencing its future, the money in its pocket, the ability to buy
:30:48. > :30:52.property and get onto the property ladder, which is the ultimate
:30:53. > :30:57.achievement. Can you see how the younger generation feels that it is
:30:58. > :31:05.that choice or the ability to make those choices? If you are going to
:31:06. > :31:08.pick out the old-age pensioners as the cause... Everything comes back
:31:09. > :31:12.to the government, going back 20 years. It was the government to
:31:13. > :31:16.abolished assistance for tertiary education and saddled students with
:31:17. > :31:21.?40,000 of debt coming out of university. We didn't do that. I
:31:22. > :31:25.voted passionately for Remain and I think it would be much better for us
:31:26. > :31:30.if we could stay in the EU but that is a separate issue. A lot of older
:31:31. > :31:33.people feel they are being vilified as somehow guilty of having built up
:31:34. > :31:38.some resources that they can then live on for the rest of their lives.
:31:39. > :31:44.And yet that is what you should want in society. I don't see that young
:31:45. > :31:48.people are being vilified. I see the reverse. A lot of people are saying
:31:49. > :31:50.it is the fault of the baby boomers, they have done this and that,
:31:51. > :31:54.collected all the resources for themselves and part of the future
:31:55. > :31:59.for the young. What we need in society is this cohesion, that
:32:00. > :32:04.generations look after each other and work together. That element of
:32:05. > :32:08.vilification is something I would love to see eradicated. James, we
:32:09. > :32:12.will pick up with you in a moment but let's see what the viewers have
:32:13. > :32:13.been saying. Yes, these are the messages coming in this morning.
:32:14. > :33:04.Margaret says: Fair point. Interesting. Let's get
:33:05. > :33:07.older people to move out of empty houses and free them up for the
:33:08. > :33:12.younger generation? I think that would make a lot of sense. One of
:33:13. > :33:16.the problems as we are not building the right sort of houses for lots of
:33:17. > :33:22.people. That goes back to the failure of public policy. I want to
:33:23. > :33:27.get back to something Ross said about cohesion between generations.
:33:28. > :33:31.You can't have cohesion when you are slashing support and benefits for
:33:32. > :33:34.the young and you are keeping a triple-lock on pensions, winter fuel
:33:35. > :33:39.payment for wealthy pensioners, and a basket of benefits for the old. If
:33:40. > :33:43.you are going to get up and say we are all in this together, it has got
:33:44. > :33:51.to look like that, and it isn't working. Absolutely, I agree with
:33:52. > :33:54.you. It goes deeper than that. Who is participating in politics?
:33:55. > :33:58.Statistics show that the older generation of voting and they are
:33:59. > :34:01.interested in politics. Young people are involved and interested in
:34:02. > :34:06.politics. Someone online said young people need to start footing. It is
:34:07. > :34:10.about us all taking a step forward together. We all need to move
:34:11. > :34:14.forward together and engage young people in politics. Young people are
:34:15. > :34:18.politically aware. They know what is happening in their communities. They
:34:19. > :34:23.see the crime and social injustice. Maybe it is time to put politics and
:34:24. > :34:27.social sciences into schools? There is another proposal but I haven't
:34:28. > :34:34.got time to discuss it. Thank you so much for those thoughts.
:34:35. > :34:37.When Nicola Adams won gold in the 2012 London Olympics,
:34:38. > :34:40.she made history as Team GB's first female boxing champion in the Games.
:34:41. > :34:43.To do it again this year puts her firmly in the fight game's
:34:44. > :34:46.Nicola's achievements and those of her fellow Olympians
:34:47. > :34:48.and Paralympians will be celebrated in parades next week.
:34:49. > :34:50.For Nicola, though, it's only the beginning.
:34:51. > :35:01.Huge congratulations first of all on your success in Rio. Let's get all
:35:02. > :35:05.your titles in a row. You are reigning Olympic, World,
:35:06. > :35:09.Commonwealth and European champion. You are the second British boxer
:35:10. > :35:15.ever to win two gold medals in a row at the Olympics. What does it feel
:35:16. > :35:18.like to have made history? It feels absolutely amazing. I can't believe
:35:19. > :35:23.what I have achieved. Seeing the likes of sugar Ray Leonard and
:35:24. > :35:36.Muhammad Ali, my heroes in boxing, and seeing that moment when they
:35:37. > :35:40.won their gold medals in the Olympics, I always wanted to and I
:35:41. > :35:43.always believed that one day I would be able to be like my heroes and win
:35:44. > :35:48.a gold medal. Nicola Adams! Nicola Adams claims her second successive
:35:49. > :35:53.Olympic gold in the boxing ring. You will most going to boxing by
:35:54. > :35:56.accident. Tell me about how you started. I started boxing when I was
:35:57. > :36:00.12 years old. My mum was doing an aerobics class and she couldn't get
:36:01. > :36:03.a baby-sitter one night for me and my brother, so she took down to
:36:04. > :36:08.after-school boxing that was at the same time as the aerobics and that
:36:09. > :36:11.was it. I absolutely loved it. But it was a struggle in the early days.
:36:12. > :36:21.There were not many female opponents. I think there were three
:36:22. > :36:27.or four years between your first two fights? Yes, the girls got turned
:36:28. > :36:29.away from James, going from one to another, with a gymnasium saying
:36:30. > :36:36.they didn't have the facilities for girls. I was lucky that my coach
:36:37. > :36:40.didn't mind me training in the gym. He gave me the same speech that he
:36:41. > :36:45.gave to every other boxer. You will be treated as a boxer. There is no
:36:46. > :36:50.male or female. When I speak, you listen. Get on with the training.
:36:51. > :36:55.That was it! But you also have to fund yourself. Yes, it was really
:36:56. > :37:00.tough trying to get funding. There wasn't anything at all. My mum used
:37:01. > :37:05.to pretty much fund by training, going to training camps, to box
:37:06. > :37:12.abroad, even just petrol money going to and from the gym. When I got a
:37:13. > :37:17.bit older I started doing extras work on Emmerdale and Coronation
:37:18. > :37:22.Street. It was quite fun but it was also helping me fund my sport as
:37:23. > :37:34.well. After 2012 it was quite hard to blend into the background!
:37:35. > :37:41.You have also had to face adversity during your training and your
:37:42. > :37:45.career. You have been building up to 2012, and then in 2009 you had an
:37:46. > :37:50.accident at home which threatened your Olympic chances. What happened?
:37:51. > :37:55.Yes, that was quite tough for me. I was getting ready to go and con Pete
:37:56. > :38:00.in Haringey boxing club and I packed all my stuff, but my bandages in,
:38:01. > :38:04.left a bit of bandage hanging out of my bag, and when I was rushing down
:38:05. > :38:10.the stairs I fell over the bandage and went tumbling down. I went to
:38:11. > :38:15.the doctors and did a scan and I had damaged the vertebrae in my back. I
:38:16. > :38:19.literally just had bed rest for three months before I could
:38:20. > :38:25.literally walk about and do anything. Did you feel you couldn't
:38:26. > :38:31.go to the Olympics and it was over? I was thinking that. The coaches and
:38:32. > :38:35.the videos and the doctors were saying I was going to be fine but
:38:36. > :38:42.when you are the person lying there who can't move, it is hard to
:38:43. > :38:47.visualise being up and about and being able to compete again. What
:38:48. > :38:53.did you draw on during that time? For me, it was just thinking about
:38:54. > :38:59.my family and wanting to go to the Games. It had been my dream since I
:39:00. > :39:04.was 12 years old. Every step that I took, getting closer and closer, it
:39:05. > :39:08.made me more determined. By the time I was up and running, I was so
:39:09. > :39:17.focused and dedicated on getting to the Games that I wasn't going to let
:39:18. > :39:22.anything or anybody stop me. The Ali shuffling effect from Adams. One of
:39:23. > :39:28.her Olympic heroes along with Sugar Ray Leonard. Nicola Adams produces a
:39:29. > :39:30.fast flurry just to underline the superiority she demonstrated
:39:31. > :39:34.throughout that Olympic gold medal bout. You have said you are
:39:35. > :39:40.Christian. Amateurs that part of your life? It is a big part of my
:39:41. > :39:45.life. -- how much is that part of your life? It is a big part of my
:39:46. > :39:49.life. I believe in God and he watches over me. I am not the best
:39:50. > :39:54.churchgoer but I believe that is all that matters to me. You have
:39:55. > :39:59.commented that you have turned to faith in times of struggle but what
:40:00. > :40:03.about in the good times and your talents? Massively. I am always
:40:04. > :40:07.saying thank you for the good times. You can't just call on board for the
:40:08. > :40:14.bad times. You have got to thank him for the good ones as well. Boxing is
:40:15. > :40:17.violent. You have got to be aggressive to succeed, you have got
:40:18. > :40:22.to hit the other person and people get hurt. How do you reconcile that
:40:23. > :40:26.aspect of it? For me I am just thinking about scoring points. I
:40:27. > :40:34.actually don't like getting hit so I am really good! I know that must be
:40:35. > :40:37.funny coming from a boxer. My opponent is trying to hit me, so
:40:38. > :40:42.I've got to make sure I'm ready for that and try and counter and defence
:40:43. > :40:45.and score back as soon as I can. One of your great heroes, Muhammad Ali,
:40:46. > :40:52.sadly died this year but your mum always told you you would be as good
:40:53. > :40:56.as him. Was she right? Yes. I am creating history every time I step
:40:57. > :41:00.in the ring. I'm not far off being a legend, I don't think. I think
:41:01. > :41:06.that's fair. How is the poetry coming along? Not too bad. I'm doing
:41:07. > :41:12.OK. Do you want to share a bit with us? I haven't got anything at this
:41:13. > :41:16.present moment. Working on it? Yes, work in progress. Thank you, Nicola.
:41:17. > :41:18.She's already mastered the Ali shuffle.
:41:19. > :41:23.Still to come on Sunday Morning Live: Rock band Deacon Blue perform
:41:24. > :41:37.Two police forces, West Midlands and Leicestershire,
:41:38. > :41:41.have said they'll consider burqas and face veils as part of uniform
:41:42. > :41:45.Meanwhile, Baroness Warsi, one of the UK's leading Muslims,
:41:46. > :41:47.says Islam could consider becoming more English
:41:48. > :41:49.in the design of mosques for example.
:41:50. > :41:52.So should society be more accommodating to Islamic culture
:41:53. > :41:54.or should Muslims blend in more with UK traditions?
:41:55. > :42:07.We are joined now by Reverend George Hargreaves
:42:08. > :42:09.We are joined now by Reverend George Hargreaves who is a minister
:42:10. > :42:13.Also joining us from our Birmingham studio is community
:42:14. > :42:23.Do Muslims have an obligation to integrate into the majority
:42:24. > :42:27.community? Yes, they do. Where you live, you must speak the language,
:42:28. > :42:31.adopt the cultures and customs of the local people. But the
:42:32. > :42:35.fundamental features of your faith don't change. Culture, food, dress,
:42:36. > :42:41.you may adopt the local fashion and customs. Muslims need to integrate
:42:42. > :42:46.in a sense of being part and parcel of society, being involved in
:42:47. > :42:50.activities, social, political, economic, welfare, charity. I think
:42:51. > :42:54.our generation of Muslims is doing much more than this and the earlier
:42:55. > :43:00.generation. And a second point about Islam's role in such a society, we
:43:01. > :43:03.are not to be considered an alien, an enemy within, the other. It can't
:43:04. > :43:08.be because you can't function in a society if you are like that, you're
:43:09. > :43:13.treated like that and you feel like that. Integration is a two way
:43:14. > :43:16.process. We are not talking about assimilation where you lose
:43:17. > :43:20.everything. We are talking about integration. If I meet your way, you
:43:21. > :43:24.should meet my way. There is an amazing integration happening in
:43:25. > :43:26.Britain over the last 100 years. My parents come from Bangladesh and
:43:27. > :43:48.they came to keep it. Immigration --
:43:49. > :43:52.integration is happening subtly. We want it at an institutional level.
:43:53. > :43:55.Multiculturalism should be celebrated. Multi-faith culture
:43:56. > :44:02.should be celebrated. Our country is diverse. Do you think that Baroness
:44:03. > :44:10.Warsi is onto something? I really think she is. Historically around
:44:11. > :44:16.the world religions have flourished when inculturation has taken place.
:44:17. > :44:20.As has been said here, when something has assimilated into a
:44:21. > :44:25.community, not losing faith, but taking on songs, music, design of
:44:26. > :44:30.architecture, of the host community. So they are not so other when the
:44:31. > :44:33.rest of the community sees them operating. That is what I welcome. I
:44:34. > :44:35.welcome the Baroness has said because that is the way to go and it
:44:36. > :44:49.works. Choral singing, architecture, would
:44:50. > :44:56.that make Islam seen more Britain? I don't think so. You don't need a
:44:57. > :45:09.minaret to worship Allah do you? You don't need a dome or a minaret to
:45:10. > :45:15.worship God. In the church we've got steeples. Most churches today... I
:45:16. > :45:19.have a problem with communities wanting to express themselves in the
:45:20. > :45:23.architecture of their choice. What we do need to understand is our
:45:24. > :45:28.architecture was influenced by many cultures of the world. We didn't
:45:29. > :45:33.come out of the heavens fully formed in our architecture. It is a
:45:34. > :45:35.complete world integration, so there is no monolithic culture in the
:45:36. > :45:43.world. Every culture is multicultural. To claim that there
:45:44. > :45:49.is one is a fantasy. Frederick? That's a nice idea. I would like to
:45:50. > :45:53.see multiplicity of different faiths but I do think the level of
:45:54. > :46:00.integration must come from within the faith. In Jewry for example
:46:01. > :46:06.there are three brands, liberal, reform and orthodox. The orthodox
:46:07. > :46:13.are much more orthodox than the Liberals. But I think people think
:46:14. > :46:16.sometimes who are outside Islam that Islam is one monolith. It isn't.
:46:17. > :46:27.There are grades and communities within Islam from Shia to Sunni.
:46:28. > :46:31.From very tolerant Muslims who wish to integrate to hard line who do not
:46:32. > :46:39.wish to have anything to do with nonbelievers. Jermain, let's hear
:46:40. > :46:44.from you. The smaller group, should it be integrating more or should the
:46:45. > :46:48.larger group be more accepting? There needs to be more integration
:46:49. > :46:56.from both sides. Britain is probably the only country in the world that
:46:57. > :46:59.has our level of multiculturalism. I think culture is multiculturalism. I
:47:00. > :47:02.think we have the ability to accept people from different faiths,
:47:03. > :47:08.different walks of life and say, you can be British too. You don't have
:47:09. > :47:13.to be English speaking. You can be from the Caribbean, parts of Africa
:47:14. > :47:16.or Asia. Gay or bisexual, you are still British. That's the great
:47:17. > :47:22.thing about it. The question about the police officer wearing a burkha
:47:23. > :47:28.or a hijab, I welcome that. I love the idea... Would you work in
:47:29. > :47:33.dreadlocks? Absolutely. What's wrong with dreadlocks. Would you not in
:47:34. > :47:39.the My brother was one of the first black policemen in this country.
:47:40. > :47:44.Right there in the '60s. The police are there as authority figures. They
:47:45. > :47:48.are there to do a service to the country. To the public. Nobody asks
:47:49. > :47:52.anybody to become a police officer. There are standards that are set, as
:47:53. > :47:56.in the military, that are useful for the job. I think there comes a
:47:57. > :48:00.point, how can it be useful to have your face covered from here to here.
:48:01. > :48:05.What if you are reflecting the community you serve? Absolutely.
:48:06. > :48:10.Even with the niqab... You are an Imam, is that a part of the dress
:48:11. > :48:14.code that is compulsory in Islam? We need toe clarify, a woman should
:48:15. > :48:19.have a choice to decide. Is it compulsory? One second, George. A
:48:20. > :48:22.woman should have the right to decide what to wear. In a
:48:23. > :48:28.multicultural society like Britain, we welcome the choice to have. If
:48:29. > :48:31.you ask does Islam require a woman to cover her face, a theological
:48:32. > :48:36.question, it says it is not a require. However, if a woman
:48:37. > :48:43.choosesed to, we should defend her right. Number two, should a woman
:48:44. > :48:46.have to wear a burkha, a burkha is a specific dress of a particular
:48:47. > :48:55.cultural community, coming from the subcontinent. Is it a requirement?
:48:56. > :49:00.No, it is a cultural expression. If a pluralistic society... I want to
:49:01. > :49:06.bring in Shalina Litt from our Birmingham studio. I just wanted to
:49:07. > :49:10.say first of all we have to be explicit about the identity that's
:49:11. > :49:13.being introduced. It is a positive step forward that the police are
:49:14. > :49:18.considering extending the identity and the dress policy of women,
:49:19. > :49:23.because, of course, the whole drive was to bring on recruitment. It is a
:49:24. > :49:26.bonus, because now women who previously were covering their hair
:49:27. > :49:30.can now consider going into the police force. Another point we have
:49:31. > :49:35.to be explicit on is covering the face. Is that practical? I think the
:49:36. > :49:39.Commissioner or the guy from the Muslim Association actually said it
:49:40. > :49:42.is not practical. It is not, because we have to be clear that when
:49:43. > :49:45.someone is in a professional role and they are dealing with the
:49:46. > :49:50.public, seeing the face is important. That's one matter. In
:49:51. > :49:54.terms of Islam being more British, I think Jermain touched on it. We have
:49:55. > :50:00.two different sets of values. Islam is a way of life, so it has one set
:50:01. > :50:04.of values. And so is being British. Some of them complement each other.
:50:05. > :50:09.Some of them don't, but I think it is for the individual to find that
:50:10. > :50:15.balance. What we do need to make more room for is Muslims in Britain
:50:16. > :50:20.learning how to be dealing with the British values that may be coincide
:50:21. > :50:24.or contradict some of the Islamic values. For example homosexuality.
:50:25. > :50:28.If you speak about this in the Muslim community, it is like we are
:50:29. > :50:33.not allowed to talk about that. There are two different subjects.
:50:34. > :50:37.What needs to change to encourage more integration into British
:50:38. > :50:42.society? The discussion. I think even if we look at how Islam is
:50:43. > :50:47.presented in the media, there is so much on Islamophobia, on the
:50:48. > :50:52.negatives, but we don't often focus on the positives of Islam's
:50:53. > :50:56.integrating in the communities. It is always very negative and
:50:57. > :51:00.one-sided. I think even when you look at the Brexit and you were
:51:01. > :51:04.saying the elderly felt misrepresented. That's what's
:51:05. > :51:09.happened with Muslims and especially Muslim women. There's a big rhetoric
:51:10. > :51:13.about how the Muslim woman is dressed. A woman's Islam is not
:51:14. > :51:18.determined by her identity. There's so much more to Islam. It's about
:51:19. > :51:21.the five pillars but there is this big thing about the way the woman is
:51:22. > :51:25.dressed. It is unfair really, because it is putting this big
:51:26. > :51:30.pressure on the woman on whether or not she should choose to wear a
:51:31. > :51:34.scarf. It is so positive, this police... So you think the majority
:51:35. > :51:37.should be more accepting of the minority, not that the minority
:51:38. > :51:42.should be making effort to integrate? I'm just saying in the
:51:43. > :51:45.immediate misrepresented. I think there's two dynamics happening.
:51:46. > :51:49.There is the bigger discussion, like Jermain says, in schools. Things
:51:50. > :51:52.like that we should be having political discussions and social
:51:53. > :51:54.discussions. But within Muslim communities there should be
:51:55. > :51:59.different discussions happening there, in terms of them integrating
:52:00. > :52:04.into communities. One is learning to accept the either kind of thing. And
:52:05. > :52:08.learning to live with one another. Despite whether it is Islam,
:52:09. > :52:13.Christianity. It is beautiful that Britain is accepting and tolerating
:52:14. > :52:17.and allowing us to exercise our values religiously. That's what the
:52:18. > :52:21.positive thing is here. George, briefly from you before we get
:52:22. > :52:27.viewers athoughts. Frederick is correct in saying it must come from
:52:28. > :52:32.within. We should celebrate the initiative that she is putting
:52:33. > :52:36.forward that some expresses of Islam should take on some other forms of
:52:37. > :52:41.expression. I think that's why I'm hear today. I want to celebrate and
:52:42. > :52:49.support. I'm not Islamic, I'm a Christian, but I think this is
:52:50. > :52:52.absolutely the thing to do. Tommy? Our viewers have been sending some
:52:53. > :52:56.thoughts in. On who should be accepting who, a lot of people are
:52:57. > :52:59.saying people who choose to live in Britain should adapt to British
:53:00. > :53:02.culture. But some are saying it is up to Muslim people as to how
:53:03. > :53:44.British they want their faith to be. Tommy, thank you. Ajmal? I agree
:53:45. > :53:48.with the last statement, but Christianity was founded in the
:53:49. > :53:52.Middle East. Exactly! Thank you. Let's cut to the chase. Islam is
:53:53. > :53:56.about fairness and justice, compassion and charity. It is about
:53:57. > :54:01.my interpersonal relationship, loving my neighbours. It is all of
:54:02. > :54:06.that, which is missing from our discourse. The five pillar resource
:54:07. > :54:12.practices. That's your brand. It is not the Isis brand. Isis or no Isis,
:54:13. > :54:17.the good thing about Islam is there's a thing called the Koran.
:54:18. > :54:22.The Saints of the prophet are explicit about it. Yours is about
:54:23. > :54:26.justice. Be just. That's the closest you can ever be to Godliness. It is
:54:27. > :54:31.not about prayer but justice. The point of this discussion is about
:54:32. > :54:38.integration. Frederick, is Britain tolerant enough of other culture
:54:39. > :54:42.It's for a long time sought to be Col talent, tolerant in this
:54:43. > :54:48.country. I'm the oldest person by far. You are as old as you feel. No,
:54:49. > :54:52.after is Second World War Jewish communities in London fled Hitler
:54:53. > :54:56.but still spoke Yiddish. Nobody complained. They wore the skullcap,
:54:57. > :55:00.nobody complained. We never have complained about the way people
:55:01. > :55:03.dress. What is bewildering to many people who are not Muslims, for
:55:04. > :55:10.example when a kindly old shopkeeper in Glasgow had the nerve to wish his
:55:11. > :55:15.Christian customers a happy Easter and another Muslim drove 200 miles
:55:16. > :55:19.to shove a knife in him and kill him, because he was from one sect
:55:20. > :55:24.and the fundamentalist who thought that he had committed some kind of
:55:25. > :55:31.heresy and knifed him to death for it and is now doingic life in jail
:55:32. > :55:35.was also a devout Muslim. That's one example of millions of Muslims. One
:55:36. > :55:43.example of 3 million Muslims in this country. You have schisms inside
:55:44. > :55:45.Islam. But so do everybody. Protestants and Catholics stopped
:55:46. > :55:49.killing each other a long time ago. You are still doing it in the Middle
:55:50. > :55:53.East. What about Northern Ireland... Gentlemen, enough! We are done.
:55:54. > :55:58.Shalina, thank you for your time. I think you have figured out that's
:55:59. > :56:03.all from us today. Goodness! Many thanks to all of my panellists. And
:56:04. > :56:06.to you for taking part as well. We are going to leave you with a
:56:07. > :56:11.special song from the rock band Deacon Blue called The Believers. It
:56:12. > :56:16.was inspired by Europe's migrant crisis. From everybody here on the
:56:17. > :56:21.Sunday Morning Live team, have a lovely day.
:56:22. > :56:23.# Go on ahead, I'll be with you soon enough.
:56:24. > :56:29.# Go plant a garden, I'll be walking in the cool of the evening.
:56:30. > :56:43.# Say you were lost, then one day you were found.
:56:44. > :56:48.# And someone brought you home again.
:56:49. > :56:54.# The believers know that it's going to get better.
:56:55. > :57:04.# Cause no-one here will ever forget you, not let you.
:57:05. > :57:34.# When we say we know so much about everything?
:57:35. > :57:41.# May it take you to Heaven and never bring you back again.
:57:42. > :57:48.# So you no longer fear the boatman or the swell of the ocean.
:57:49. > :57:52.# The believers know that it's going to get better.
:57:53. > :57:59.# You better believe it, cause no-one here will ever forget you
:58:00. > :58:31.# The believers know that it's going to get better
:58:32. > :59:10.# You better believe it, cause no-one here will ever forget you
:59:11. > :59:14.Sir Terry was the ultimate master at talking to his audience.