:00:24. > :00:23.On today's programme: The Prime Minister warns tax dodgers
:00:24. > :00:49.career in television. Four scarlet berries on the tree.
:00:50. > :00:49.career in television. Four scarlet letters and in the restaurants, and
:00:50. > :00:55.they say, Good morning. Good morning. We are
:00:56. > :01:17.me and that was you Good morning. Good morning. We are
:01:18. > :01:20.looking forward to hearing from you. Make sure you get an touch through
:01:21. > :01:26.Facebook and Twitter. Don't forget to use
:01:27. > :01:28.the hashtag #bbcsml. Standard geographic
:01:29. > :01:31.charges from landlines Texts will be charged
:01:32. > :01:37.at your standard message rate. Email us at
:01:38. > :01:40.sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk. And if you do get in touch, please
:01:41. > :01:47.don't forget to include your name. Absolutely. Names are very
:01:48. > :01:50.important. Owen Jones is a
:01:51. > :01:54.journalist and author. Charlie Wolf is an American
:01:55. > :01:56.radio talk show host Salma Yaqoob is an activist
:01:57. > :02:00.and manager in an NHS And Mark Littlewood
:02:01. > :02:04.is Director General of the Institute "You have a duty to
:02:05. > :02:11.pay your tax and we're The words of the Prime Minister
:02:12. > :02:14.at the Conservative Party Her comments were interpreted
:02:15. > :02:32.by many as a coded warning to big US presidential candidate Donald
:02:33. > :02:36.Trump, currently embroiled in a sexism row, causes further
:02:37. > :02:42.controversy by saying paying as little tax as you can is smart.
:02:43. > :02:45.It's certainly not illegal to avoid tax as long as you stick
:02:46. > :02:47.to the letter of the law but is it morally justified?
:02:48. > :02:59.Donald Trump says it is smart. I think it is. It is smart, legal,
:03:00. > :03:04.ethical. It is one of the few things he is doing right. If you talk to
:03:05. > :03:07.anyone here or in the States, Hillary Clinton has done it, as a
:03:08. > :03:12.matter of fact. All he was doing in this case, is he has losses and he
:03:13. > :03:16.was moving them into the future against future profits. He has still
:03:17. > :03:20.got to be the same amount of tax but this benefit everybody in the sense
:03:21. > :03:22.that we need people like Donald Trump and Richard Branson and other
:03:23. > :03:41.entrepreneurs to take risk, and this allows them to take that risk. I can
:03:42. > :03:44.hear you scoffing? Just laughing at the idea that we need Donald Trump!
:03:45. > :03:46.There are two points about morality here. I am not a priest. We are
:03:47. > :03:49.going through the worst cuts to public services for many
:03:50. > :03:51.generations, just on the basis of not having enough money. And there
:03:52. > :03:54.is one rule for some and one rule for everybody else. The local coffee
:03:55. > :03:56.shop, they can't charge themselves for using their own logo and set it
:03:57. > :03:58.against tax. They can't use lower tax jurisdictions. They can't
:03:59. > :04:04.off-load losses from foreign entities onto their balance sheets.
:04:05. > :04:08.They are not paying as much tax as big businesses. The whole point
:04:09. > :04:12.about taxes it is progressive. Big businesses are partly driving some
:04:13. > :04:16.of these businesses out of business because they are at a competitive
:04:17. > :04:22.disadvantage. We have got large accountancy firms in this company
:04:23. > :04:25.countries according to government, drawing up the tax laws, then they
:04:26. > :04:28.tell their clients had to get around the taxes they have created. So it
:04:29. > :04:32.is one rule for them and another for everyone else. One of the
:04:33. > :04:36.interesting thing is that Donald Trump said is he knows the system,
:04:37. > :04:42.he has played the system, and he wants to fix it and make it fair. I
:04:43. > :04:48.think that is fair. Listen, I don't care so much about Donald Trump. You
:04:49. > :04:52.are a big fan, Charlie! I'm just using this example. Insomuch as
:04:53. > :04:56.putting losses against profits, nothing wrong with that, everybody
:04:57. > :05:01.does it. I want to hear Mark's view as well, the views of the whole
:05:02. > :05:05.panel. Isn't it good PR for businesses to be seen to be paying
:05:06. > :05:10.tax? It might be good PR, in which case they should put their tax bill
:05:11. > :05:14.against the PR line on their expenditure! Businesses do all sorts
:05:15. > :05:19.of things about corporate and social responsibility. To Owen's point
:05:20. > :05:24.about the system, we should be criticising the politicians here and
:05:25. > :05:29.not businesses. In the UK we have a tax code that is 14,000 pages in
:05:30. > :05:33.length. The only people who can get through the system are people with
:05:34. > :05:38.clever lawyers and accountants. No single human being can understand
:05:39. > :05:42.the whole rule book. By comparison, the rules of association football 20
:05:43. > :05:46.pages in length that they are controversial enough! When you have
:05:47. > :05:50.14,000 pages there are endless bizarre loophole and it is
:05:51. > :05:54.impossible to know what the spirit the law is at that point. And of
:05:55. > :05:58.course that helps the big corporate. I would like to Reza May to say, to
:05:59. > :06:04.make it fairer and more straightforward, we will bring it
:06:05. > :06:11.down to 14 pages and not 14,000. -- Theresa May. Is it immoral to take
:06:12. > :06:18.advantage of those loopholes? I think virtually everybody does so. I
:06:19. > :06:26.am a tax dodger. I buy duty-free cigarettes, I put money in a ISA and
:06:27. > :06:31.I have a pension, for the tax bases, which is not good value for money.
:06:32. > :06:36.Personal affairs, a few hundred quid here, a couple of grand here, to
:06:37. > :06:40.minimise my tax bill, I feel no shame about that. Can I just address
:06:41. > :06:48.the ISA misnomer. Tax avoidance goes against the spirit of the law. Yes,
:06:49. > :06:52.it is. Can I finish? The point about an ISA, this is a government scheme
:06:53. > :06:59.we are respected to take advantage of. It is government legislation.
:07:00. > :07:05.Loopholes are things that the legislators did not intend to be
:07:06. > :07:10.exploited. If somebody can work out the spirit and intention of 14,000
:07:11. > :07:14.pages produced by politicians year after year... What I would like to
:07:15. > :07:19.do is get your view. I think you make a really good point that we
:07:20. > :07:24.should be firing up anger at the system. It is about the politicians.
:07:25. > :07:27.It is all very well for Theresa May to go against the tax dodgers, but
:07:28. > :07:33.her government has set up the rules to make it advantageous for those
:07:34. > :07:36.with a lot of money, who can employ accountants who are enabling tax
:07:37. > :07:41.dodging, and that is where the real scandal is and our economy is losing
:07:42. > :07:45.out. We are losing far more in so-called loopholes than in benefit
:07:46. > :07:49.fraud, and yet the whole political discourse has been on who is
:07:50. > :07:53.benefiting from the system. I would say the big rich businesses are.
:07:54. > :07:58.When we are talking about huge amounts of money, a minimum of ?25
:07:59. > :08:02.billion per year, that is all of the spending cuts covered if people paid
:08:03. > :08:07.the taxes that they should. What about the role of business when it
:08:08. > :08:11.comes to their duty to shareholders? It is up to them to make sure they
:08:12. > :08:14.are as efficient and profitable as possible. Of course businesses are
:08:15. > :08:18.there to make profit but they don't make it in a vacuum. Businesses
:08:19. > :08:31.operate in this country because it is a safe
:08:32. > :08:35.country and it has an efficient road system, a health system that
:08:36. > :08:37.employees benefit from. So they are benefiting from the taxpayers and of
:08:38. > :08:39.course they should be paying their fair share. That is a critical
:08:40. > :08:41.point. Companies depend on infrastructure. I have an iPhone.
:08:42. > :08:45.Many of its features were created from public sector re-search over
:08:46. > :08:48.the internet in touch-screen technology, topping up pensions, law
:08:49. > :08:54.and order to protect their poverty, and we could go on. What Mark says,
:08:55. > :08:59.yes, politicians should clamp down on loopholes, but it is not a case
:09:00. > :09:03.of companies saying that tax is so complicated that I cannot understand
:09:04. > :09:07.what is going on and that is why I am avoiding tax. It is a choice.
:09:08. > :09:13.Some companies choose to do it and some do not. It is agency here. The
:09:14. > :09:16.point is, yes, clamp down on loopholes, but they are spending
:09:17. > :09:20.huge amounts of resources going through complex tax laws to find the
:09:21. > :09:26.loopholes and that is wrong. We have got to accept there is a trade-off
:09:27. > :09:29.here. Owain might want there to be yet more tax collected by the
:09:30. > :09:33.British government. But for every pound a company pays on tax, it is
:09:34. > :09:39.?1 less they can do something with, for sample giving a pay rise to
:09:40. > :09:44.staff. They don't! Companies do give pay rises to staff. If you want to
:09:45. > :09:48.collect more in taxation, don't think you can do so completely value
:09:49. > :09:56.free. The price might be passed on to customers. It might be less in
:09:57. > :10:00.the pension fund. The trickle down theory has been disproved. You can
:10:01. > :10:03.ultimately only tax human beings and if you want people to give more
:10:04. > :10:08.money to the state, which Owen clearly wants, that means they have
:10:09. > :10:12.less money to do other things with it. In the United States there are
:10:13. > :10:17.something like $2.5 trillion sure that companies are not bringing
:10:18. > :10:22.back. Why? Because they are paying 6% tax offshore and in the United
:10:23. > :10:26.States it would be 35%. For me the smart thing is to lower the tax,
:10:27. > :10:30.bring the money in, let it be invested, and then reap tax benefits
:10:31. > :10:36.and the employees can benefit and wealth is created. That is smart. We
:10:37. > :10:45.are talking about businesses at the moment, but what about individuals?
:10:46. > :10:49.Where does morality lie? Small businesses, big businesses, avoiding
:10:50. > :10:53.tax, taking advantage of loopholes, but individuals cannot do that so
:10:54. > :10:56.where is the line? I try to be pragmatic about human beings. We
:10:57. > :11:11.have all got our pools and bushes and it is natural for people to say,
:11:12. > :11:19.who once to pay more tax? -- -- our pulls and pushes. And that is
:11:20. > :11:23.normal. But when you know that other people cannot avoid tax, and you
:11:24. > :11:27.can, there is a moral responsibility, firstly on
:11:28. > :11:30.governments and lawmakers and our system as a whole, but then as an
:11:31. > :11:37.individual you have got a choice as to how you make your choices when it
:11:38. > :11:40.comes to paying will stop if a financial adviser came up to you
:11:41. > :11:45.with free advice and said I know how to reduce your tax bill and it is
:11:46. > :11:48.perfectly legal, what would you say? This is what I am saying. I can
:11:49. > :11:53.understand why people feel why shouldn't I be able to do that
:11:54. > :11:57.because I can give more to my children? I wouldn't personally
:11:58. > :12:01.condemn somebody who said they are operating legally and having their
:12:02. > :12:05.duty to their shareholders and their family. I can completely understand
:12:06. > :12:10.that argument but I would say that the system has been rigged so that
:12:11. > :12:13.large corporations like Vodafone have now avoided ?6 billion of tax.
:12:14. > :12:21.They are not giving it to employees and communities. I will just say
:12:22. > :12:25.because you have mentioned Vodafone that there are many other companies
:12:26. > :12:30.as well that are under investigation by HMRC. I asked the question if a
:12:31. > :12:37.financial adviser offered for free to reduce your tax bill by using
:12:38. > :12:40.loopholes, would you say yes? No. I have an accountant because I am
:12:41. > :12:45.self-employed and I have instructed the accountant to comply the spirit
:12:46. > :12:49.of the law as well as the letter. I am self-employed so I am a sole
:12:50. > :12:53.trader, because of the nature of my job. I could have chosen to become a
:12:54. > :12:57.limited company but I am not and that is deceptive on my part. Some
:12:58. > :12:59.people set themselves up as a limited company so they pay
:13:00. > :13:03.corporation tax rather than income tax. I don't think they should do
:13:04. > :13:07.that and it is the point I am making. It is choice. You are not
:13:08. > :13:31.compelled by tax loopholes to exploit them.
:13:32. > :13:34.They are there to be exploited if people generally have the resources
:13:35. > :13:37.to do so. People watching this programme have just got to pay the
:13:38. > :13:40.taxes they have got to pay and they don't have encountered that personal
:13:41. > :13:42.advisers, and they have just got to pay them. Level the playing field
:13:43. > :13:44.and take on the loopholes that people have an individual
:13:45. > :13:47.responsibility to avoid. A number of the loopholes are deliberate, as you
:13:48. > :13:49.rightly point out. It is very difficult to know. I have looked
:13:50. > :13:52.into this, if I have paid for my full ISA this year, the government
:13:53. > :13:54.has set up various incentives to invest in movies and children's
:13:55. > :13:57.films at a hugely attractive tax rate. I assume this is because the
:13:58. > :13:58.government wants me to put my money into movies and children's
:13:59. > :14:02.television rather than another product. It is hugely tax efficient.
:14:03. > :14:05.I don't think I can sit there and work out what George Osborne was
:14:06. > :14:10.thinking at the time about the spirit of this rule when he brought
:14:11. > :14:14.it in. That is a tax loophole and big companies are playing exactly
:14:15. > :14:23.the same game on a more colossal scale than individuals with access
:14:24. > :14:25.to financial advice. The function of ISAs is to incentivise saving
:14:26. > :14:30.because that is good for the economy. That is the point. It is
:14:31. > :14:35.not tax avoidance. It is so important to get this absolutely
:14:36. > :14:41.clear. It is a loophole that was not intended to be there. ISAs are
:14:42. > :14:48.advertised and publicised. Duty-free? What is the intention of
:14:49. > :14:53.those products? It was introduced by legislation... What is the spirit of
:14:54. > :14:58.that row? I don't know. It is expected that everybody can take
:14:59. > :15:02.advantage of it when they pass through an airport and it is
:15:03. > :15:05.intended by legislation so people can exploit it equally. You don't
:15:06. > :15:11.need to be a big operation and you don't need a financial adviser and
:15:12. > :15:14.it is open to everybody. I am saying stop! We can talk to Samanthi and
:15:15. > :15:16.find out what you have been saying and perhaps you are not talking over
:15:17. > :15:30.each other as well! It is as divisive at home as it is
:15:31. > :15:39.here. Let's hear what you're saying. Ryan says: We've heard from Peter.
:15:40. > :16:26.He says: We've heard from Zorba. Thanks,
:16:27. > :16:31.Samanthi. We're not going back to duty free, we're just not! Charlie,
:16:32. > :16:35.some people were talking about is whether it is fair that we all pay
:16:36. > :16:42.the same amount of tax. We could strip it down and get rid of the
:16:43. > :16:45.loopholes. Rich people don't need to pay tax. You can take shares,
:16:46. > :16:54.dividends, get paid in the future. If you're that rich, you don't need
:16:55. > :17:00.a pay cheque at the end of the week. The girl who hands out payslips
:17:01. > :17:04.everybody, you get your couple of dozen, he would get a cheque for a
:17:05. > :17:10.couple of billion. They don't need the money. I want to ask in question
:17:11. > :17:12.- have you ever paid more than UO? We're talking about tax avoidance.
:17:13. > :17:32.But I want know. -- than you owe. It is irrelevant, it is
:17:33. > :17:39.about tax avoidance. You're taking a moral argument. I don't avoid tax,
:17:40. > :17:45.that's the point. I don't have a financial adviser, I have an
:17:46. > :17:55.accountant. I am not interested in your personal tax records. And I'm
:17:56. > :17:59.sure our viewers aren't interested. The question is, would we all feel
:18:00. > :18:03.better if we were all playing the same rate of tax and we were on a
:18:04. > :18:09.level playing field, is that the way forward? If it enabled a level
:18:10. > :18:16.playing field, but it doesn't. So it's fair that the rich pay more?
:18:17. > :18:20.For example, right now, we have people who earn over ?100,000 a
:18:21. > :18:26.year, and the Tories said they can go down to 45% tax after a certain
:18:27. > :18:30.amount rather than the 50% we had. Under Thatcher, we had 60% as the
:18:31. > :18:35.higher tax rate, and businesses were more than happy to pay that. When
:18:36. > :18:40.you're making that level, it's fair that people whose shoulders should
:18:41. > :18:44.contribute more. I'm not saying it is right from the beginning, that
:18:45. > :18:49.level, but a progressive tax system is fair. Thank you, thank you very
:18:50. > :18:51.much. Thank you for your comments. It's going to be a lively programme,
:18:52. > :18:55.so do keep your comments coming in. Still to come on Sunday Morning
:18:56. > :18:58.Live: The three priests who have become a worldwide singing sensation
:18:59. > :19:04.perform for us here in the studio. Are there too many foreign
:19:05. > :19:07.workers in the UK? That's what the Government will be
:19:08. > :19:09.investigating as part of its aim to increase the use
:19:10. > :19:12.of home grown talent. Companies will be encouraged
:19:13. > :19:15.to train locally rather than recruit from abroad and the number
:19:16. > :19:17.they employ from overseas More doctors will also be trained
:19:18. > :19:23.here to reduce the need to bring in medical staff
:19:24. > :19:26.from outside Britain. So, do foreign workers benefit us
:19:27. > :19:28.or block opportunity? Tommy Sandhu has been sampling
:19:29. > :19:38.views. I'm here in London, one of the most
:19:39. > :19:46.ethnically diverse cities in the world. It's Mayor, Sadiq Khan, has
:19:47. > :19:50.told migrants, you are welcome. It appears the Government will have a
:19:51. > :19:55.different idea. Should we be doing more to protect British workers over
:19:56. > :19:58.migrant once? I think jobs should be given to the best people with the
:19:59. > :20:08.best skills for the role, whether or not they are British. Mac -- foreign
:20:09. > :20:15.workers do fill holes in the labour market, especially where British
:20:16. > :20:18.workers don't want to do those jobs. They have less demand on servers and
:20:19. > :20:23.they are better educated, so they bring more into the economy. Lots of
:20:24. > :20:27.migrant workers are not taking any one's benefits. They get the jobs
:20:28. > :20:30.because they are best placed, and most contribute positively to
:20:31. > :20:35.British society. The problem is, people don't want to pay people high
:20:36. > :20:43.wages, so migrant workers often come in and will work for lower wages. We
:20:44. > :20:46.had people who came to Ireland, and they didn't spend a whole lot of
:20:47. > :20:52.money and they drained money out of the country as well. I think we had
:20:53. > :20:56.to encourage British people to get out and do jobs that maybe they
:20:57. > :21:04.wouldn't have thought of doing, try and encourage them to get out there.
:21:05. > :21:05.So, predominantly pro-migrant workers.
:21:06. > :21:08.So are there too many foreign workers in the UK?
:21:09. > :21:10.Joining us for this discussion is the writer and former prison
:21:11. > :21:17.Welcome. Theodore, let's start with you. Would it be unethical for
:21:18. > :21:21.employers to prioritise British workers for vacancies, as has been
:21:22. > :21:27.suggested? You like it wouldn't be unethical, but it might be unwise.
:21:28. > :21:34.Why? Why would it be unwise? Because the foreign workers are better. In
:21:35. > :21:43.what sense? Better educated, have a better attitude to work and so on.
:21:44. > :21:48.Why would it not be unethical, then? Ethics and wisdom are not the same
:21:49. > :21:49.thing. Is it permissible for them to do it, but it wouldn't be advisable
:21:50. > :22:05.for them to do it. OK, Salma, do you approve companies of being
:22:06. > :22:10.obliged to publish the numbers of how many foreign workers they have?
:22:11. > :22:15.We need to know what is happening and what they are doing about it. Do
:22:16. > :22:19.we need more jobs? Yes, we do. But it is not foreign workers who are
:22:20. > :22:23.blocking people. This home-grown notion is simply false. Theresa May
:22:24. > :22:26.is pandering to a sentiment, and that is how they are justifying it,
:22:27. > :22:32.saying, this is our answer to people's concerns. We should address
:22:33. > :22:36.concerns such as low wages, lack of opportunity, but it is not because
:22:37. > :22:40.of foreign workers. In the NHS, we have a shortage of staff. The reason
:22:41. > :22:43.we have so many foreign doctors doctors who are trained abroad is
:22:44. > :22:48.because we haven't trained sufficient numbers. In fact, we are
:22:49. > :22:51.still understaffed. That is a Government decision, not because of
:22:52. > :22:56.foreign doctor decided to take the place of someone else. Even now, we
:22:57. > :23:01.are chronically understaffed. This type of language is divisive. It
:23:02. > :23:05.makes people feel resentment. Now, someone will go to a hospital and
:23:06. > :23:09.see a doctor and there will be some tension. How is that helpful in our
:23:10. > :23:14.society? You can't deny that when it comes down to our everyday lives,
:23:15. > :23:18.this type of rhetoric plays out in a nasty and unhelpful way. To pick up
:23:19. > :23:21.the point, I mentioned in the introduction that more British
:23:22. > :23:26.doctors are being trained by the NHS. Even that number, no way will
:23:27. > :23:30.it meet the demand, so it is quite misleading. We need 100,000 more
:23:31. > :23:35.doctors. It will take at least another decade for the ones they
:23:36. > :23:40.have earmarked to get to that stage, and in the meantime, the fact
:23:41. > :23:44.they've used the words that in the interim would allow doctors to say,
:23:45. > :23:49.what does that make them feel? Let's pick up on this. Charlie, how
:23:50. > :23:54.helpful is this rhetoric? Not at all, but at the same time, I want
:23:55. > :23:57.something that benefits the consumer. If the foreign worker is
:23:58. > :24:01.better, as the door was saying, and generally they are, it will bring
:24:02. > :24:06.the price down. I use Polish workers all the time. My friend is a
:24:07. > :24:10.property developer and has those guys working for him, and they had
:24:11. > :24:14.things cleared up in under an hour. It is amazing what these guys do. I
:24:15. > :24:18.don't care what you are, where you are from, I want someone who can do
:24:19. > :24:24.the job efficiently at the best price. And I am sure there are
:24:25. > :24:28.British workers who are saying... I don't like this divide and rule of
:24:29. > :24:33.turning people against foreign workers. There are communities where
:24:34. > :24:37.traditional industries have been destroyed and there is a lack of
:24:38. > :24:41.good secure work. It is not because of foreign workers, not because they
:24:42. > :24:45.are lazy. It is because of Government policy, and they are let
:24:46. > :24:48.off the hook. You talk about the NHS, and every single year that
:24:49. > :24:53.Theresa May has been part of this Government, they have cut the
:24:54. > :24:59.funding for nursing places. That is why one in three nurses comes from
:25:00. > :25:05.abroad. The care workers, the nurses and the doctors from Poland, Hungary
:25:06. > :25:08.and Lithuania were looked after my grandmother in the last few months,
:25:09. > :25:13.I want to thank them, and for looking after my ill and infirm
:25:14. > :25:17.grandad, for bringing children into the world and looking after people
:25:18. > :25:21.in their final moments. People have concerns about immigration that we
:25:22. > :25:24.should debate, but we're talking about foreign nurses and doctors who
:25:25. > :25:30.every single person watching this programme owes for either their own
:25:31. > :25:35.lives of those people close to them. Treating them as a problem that
:25:36. > :25:41.needs to be thrown out is disturbing. The Government's job is
:25:42. > :25:44.to protect its country. Yes. Is the Government going along the right
:25:45. > :25:51.lines by urging companies to employ from home? No. Politicians when they
:25:52. > :26:00.see a stick, they always grasp the wrong end of it. The problem is, in
:26:01. > :26:03.this country, it's not the foreign workers, it's the fact that many
:26:04. > :26:08.employers prefer foreign workers because they work better. OK, what
:26:09. > :26:12.about the Government encouraging British companies to train British
:26:13. > :26:16.workers to that standard? The British Government can't even
:26:17. > :26:20.arrange for picking up litter. That's not their job, that's
:26:21. > :26:24.councils. It's part of their job and they can't do it. We have roughly
:26:25. > :26:29.20% of people coming out of education that has cost about
:26:30. > :26:34.?60,000 per head or more barely able to read. This is a miracle of this
:26:35. > :26:40.organisation, and we see this overrun that -- over and over again.
:26:41. > :26:44.It is not just this Government, or the last one or previous ones. I
:26:45. > :26:48.don't actually believe the Government will be able to do this.
:26:49. > :26:54.There is a system in the states, isn't there, disclosure of how many
:26:55. > :26:58.foreign-born workers they have and US workers? I think they have, but
:26:59. > :27:11.what is more important to me is getting people into jobs. Someone
:27:12. > :27:23.said, why would you do anything to prevent an employer hi hiring
:27:24. > :27:31.people's to me, you couldn't get a better education than a company that
:27:32. > :27:39.owns 23 McDonald's. They take these young people and teach them pride,
:27:40. > :27:44.esprit de corps and responsibility. We need to have a strategy to
:27:45. > :27:48.support industry for the future. In Germany they have looked at climate
:27:49. > :27:52.change as a threat that might not as a threat but as an opportunity. They
:27:53. > :27:55.have invested in renewables, created hundreds of thousands of jobs and
:27:56. > :28:00.apprenticeships for young people. Our Government has had a hands-on
:28:01. > :28:03.approach on the basis that they will let the market decide, and if
:28:04. > :28:09.industries disappear, so be it. In the European Union, our Government
:28:10. > :28:13.vetoed efforts by the EU to try to stop Chinese steel dumping, which
:28:14. > :28:16.was undermining the steel industry. The responsibility lies with the
:28:17. > :28:20.Government for failing to invest in support industries, backed up with
:28:21. > :28:26.apprenticeships, and that is why we lack skilled jobs. Let's go back to
:28:27. > :28:30.attitudes. There are some jobs that British people simply don't want to
:28:31. > :28:34.do. That may well be the case, but again, I don't want to get into
:28:35. > :28:38.blame culture. This is what is worrying for me, if we are not
:28:39. > :28:45.attacking disabled people or people on benefits, let's now attack anyone
:28:46. > :28:48.who seems foreign. No, no, my question was, there are people who
:28:49. > :28:53.are perceived to not want to do certain jobs, even though jobs are
:28:54. > :28:56.there. That is why companies end up employing foreign workers. They do
:28:57. > :29:01.these jobs, and then the people who didn't want to do them then say,
:29:02. > :29:05.someone has taken my job. That is a specific case. It has been expressed
:29:06. > :29:11.quite clearly amongst many people, and in the media. Of course I would
:29:12. > :29:14.say, get a job. At the same time, there are so many opportunities that
:29:15. > :29:19.are being denied to people because the investment is not there. We have
:29:20. > :29:26.a housing crisis, so why not invest in construction? Why not have real
:29:27. > :29:31.solutions to real problems? We had a brilliant example of Germany
:29:32. > :29:34.investing in green energy. The other thing that hasn't really been
:29:35. > :29:42.touched upon is the low wages. There is a race to the bottom. The poor
:29:43. > :29:45.are pitted against the poorer. If we had a stronger wages Council and
:29:46. > :29:48.trade unions, it would be about getting a fairer deal so we don't
:29:49. > :29:52.have a situation where people can be working all hours of the day, every
:29:53. > :29:55.day of the week, and still not earn enough to feed their families or
:29:56. > :30:00.keep a roof over their head, and they rely on the tax payer
:30:01. > :30:04.subsidising their employer with tax credits, and landlords getting other
:30:05. > :30:10.?21 billion in housing benefit. Hard work should pay, and at the moment,
:30:11. > :30:16.we don't have that, and I think we should have a living wage
:30:17. > :30:21.introduced. 60% of people agreed that they felt British jobs should
:30:22. > :30:25.be there for British workers. They might think that, but again, they
:30:26. > :30:32.are getting the wrong end of the stick as to why there is this
:30:33. > :30:37.situation. Just because 60% of people agree with it, doesn't make
:30:38. > :30:45.it right. The implication being that British workers do want these jobs,
:30:46. > :30:51.they just feel they are not there. Which is the 60%? Of those survey.
:30:52. > :31:00.Of unemployed people? People in various employment. Hijabs -- you
:31:01. > :31:06.can't just decree people to take jobs. You have people attending
:31:07. > :31:10.university coming out with degrees that are of absolutely no use, they
:31:11. > :31:14.are not of value educationally or vocationally, so they end up doing
:31:15. > :31:22.jobs that they could have done some time ago. When leaving school.
:31:23. > :31:26.About half of recent graduates are doing non-graduate work and we're
:31:27. > :31:31.overtrained people because the jobs aren't there and that is the
:31:32. > :31:36.problem. This frustrates me because immigrants are often used to deflect
:31:37. > :31:41.blame from problems that politicians have caused. The lowest level of
:31:42. > :31:44.house building since the 1920s, so a lack of affordable housing. Lack of
:31:45. > :31:49.jobs, stagnating living standards because of public policy, and
:31:50. > :31:53.services under strain because of cuts. But often we talk about these
:31:54. > :31:57.issues through the prism of immigration. That lets politicians
:31:58. > :32:02.off the hook so it is great for them. We will just get some thoughts
:32:03. > :32:04.from our viewers. Samanthi is taking stock. There is some agreement about
:32:05. > :32:55.government policy and training. We talk a lot about other people
:32:56. > :33:02.taking British jobs, which British people don't want to do. And he
:33:03. > :33:11.talks about his own experience in construction. It is interesting that
:33:12. > :33:16.comment was made, given the example you spoke about earlier. It is not
:33:17. > :33:20.greedy employers. They need to meet a bottom line and create a profit so
:33:21. > :33:26.they get further investment, which creates further jobs. Also, you are
:33:27. > :33:31.referencing the living wage. I can understand the attractiveness of it
:33:32. > :33:35.but that doesn't really work. It is grateful person getting the living
:33:36. > :33:37.wage but it doesn't help the poor person without a job. You want to
:33:38. > :33:43.increase productivity, which increases wages. If you look at
:33:44. > :33:47.France, France has lots of problems, and some of the same problems. If
:33:48. > :33:53.you want care workers, it doesn't matter what you pay, they are hard
:33:54. > :33:57.to find and that is because French people don't want to do that work
:33:58. > :34:00.and foreign people are better and I know this from personal experience.
:34:01. > :34:05.What was striking from those tweets is there is an issue of undercutting
:34:06. > :34:09.terms and conditions so we need to change the law so all workers are
:34:10. > :34:12.employed on the same terms and conditions otherwise we have a race
:34:13. > :34:17.to the bottom. It is a case of stronger trade unions as well, so we
:34:18. > :34:36.have the same terms and conditions. I was born
:34:37. > :34:40.here and when my father came to this country, he worked for 30 years in
:34:41. > :34:43.the Post Office and trade unions were stronger and there wasn't a
:34:44. > :34:45.race to the bottom and there was Solidarity. There wasn't a feeling
:34:46. > :34:47.of people coming in and undercutting other people and that is where we
:34:48. > :34:50.get divisiveness. France has much higher rates of youth unemployment
:34:51. > :34:52.and unemployment in general than we do. Another lively one. Thank you
:34:53. > :34:53.for your comments. Keep them coming in.
:34:54. > :34:55.With programmes like Play School, Jackanory and Play Away,
:34:56. > :34:57.Floella Benjamin has been entertaining and enthralling
:34:58. > :35:00.But there's a lot more to her than that.
:35:01. > :35:02.Singer, actress, author, university chancellor and now
:35:03. > :35:07.Baroness Benjamin of Beckenham has come a long way from arriving
:35:08. > :35:09.in Britain as a child from Trinidad and initially encountering
:35:10. > :35:22.A house with a door. Four scarlet berries left upon the tree. Thanks,
:35:23. > :35:29.said the Blackbird. These will do for me. Oh, hello! My name is
:35:30. > :35:35.Floella and I'm counting the twinkling stars in the night sky.
:35:36. > :35:40.How many can you see? Floella Benjamin, just saying the name, I
:35:41. > :35:44.have been saying it to people on my way to interview you today, and
:35:45. > :35:50.everybody just smiles and says, oh, Floella! Is that a normal reaction
:35:51. > :35:55.that you get everywhere you go? Everywhere I go, people tell me they
:35:56. > :36:03.are my least cool babies. I started children's programmes for years ago.
:36:04. > :36:06.-- my Play School babies. I didn't realise the importance of me being
:36:07. > :36:12.on the screen for children, looking down the camera lens, and speaking
:36:13. > :36:16.to that one person. I meet so many people on the street who write me
:36:17. > :36:21.letters, in a restaurant, and they say, when I was little, I knew I had
:36:22. > :36:25.somebody in the world that loved me and that was you because of the way
:36:26. > :36:37.you said hello. Hello! Ready to play. What's the day? It's Friday. I
:36:38. > :36:40.was born in the West Indies, on an island called Trinidad. I will show
:36:41. > :36:45.you a photograph of me and my family. Tell me about the part of
:36:46. > :36:49.your childhood when you arrived in the UK. Well, when I was a young
:36:50. > :36:54.girl, I was brought up in Trinidad for the first ten years of my life
:36:55. > :36:57.and I had two wonderful parents who instilled love and confidence in me
:36:58. > :37:02.and I were so lucky to have a father who was a philosopher and a mother
:37:03. > :37:05.who was an earth mother. So when I came to Britain, having to face
:37:06. > :37:14.adversity, because of my background and where I had come from, that
:37:15. > :37:16.helped me to deal with this kind of animosity, this violence, this
:37:17. > :37:23.rejection that I had to face as a young child. How bad was that
:37:24. > :37:27.racism? I remember as a ten-year-old child standing in the playground and
:37:28. > :37:34.these people coming towards me, calling me the nasty names. Speaking
:37:35. > :37:38.words that I had never heard before. And I remember saying to myself, I
:37:39. > :37:43.am not going to cry, and I remember digging my nails into the palm of my
:37:44. > :37:47.hand, standing there, up against the wall, thinking is this what England
:37:48. > :37:51.is going to be like? I asked my mum what the words mean. She said, you
:37:52. > :37:55.are living in England now and some people are not going to like you.
:37:56. > :38:03.Some people are going to hate you because of the colour of your skin.
:38:04. > :38:08.I remember looking down. I feel like crying now. Why are they going to
:38:09. > :38:13.hate me? Why? Why? As a ten-year-old child that was pretty tough to take
:38:14. > :38:17.and I started fighting, fighting my way through life, until I had what I
:38:18. > :38:22.called my spiritual moment when I was 14. I was having a fight,
:38:23. > :38:28.somebody was calling me nasty names and I suddenly heard a voice saying,
:38:29. > :38:32.Floella, what are you doing? Because of their ignorance and stupidity,
:38:33. > :38:36.you are going to get yourself into trouble. Stop it. Think about who
:38:37. > :38:41.you are, believe in who you are, respectively so, and people will
:38:42. > :38:46.respect you. That is when I learned to smile and I pass that message on
:38:47. > :38:50.time and time again. If you read my book, there is a strong message in
:38:51. > :38:55.belief and determination, that nobody can get you down. That is the
:38:56. > :39:02.secret, you see? You remember and you forgive but you don't let it eat
:39:03. > :39:06.you up. Those are incredible values. It feels very godly, very spiritual,
:39:07. > :39:12.very much faith driven. Is that where it comes from as well as your
:39:13. > :39:16.parents? When I was a little girl in Trinidad, going to church was an
:39:17. > :39:20.important part of our well-being. When I came to Britain, we went to
:39:21. > :39:24.church, we wanted to continue that same regime, and we were told what
:39:25. > :39:30.are you doing here? You are not wanted in this church and we don't
:39:31. > :39:36.want your kind here. And so my church became my head, my inner
:39:37. > :39:39.Temple. The power of good. And having that powerful boot in your
:39:40. > :39:46.heart and your soul is the importance of life. All faiths are
:39:47. > :39:50.based on being good, and that is why you must teach children that nothing
:39:51. > :39:55.can destroy you if you have that strong inner belief. You are now
:39:56. > :39:59.Baroness Benjamin of Beckenham. What would the young Floella think if she
:40:00. > :40:06.could see you now in the House of Lords doing what you do? I have got
:40:07. > :40:10.politics in my DNA. My grandfather was the Deputy Prime Minister of
:40:11. > :40:15.Antigua. My father was a trade union activist. I have always been
:40:16. > :40:19.politically active. I campaigned for 20 years to get a minister for
:40:20. > :40:23.children and I am doing exactly the same thing as I did long before I
:40:24. > :40:29.went into the House of Lords. I stand up and I speak for children,
:40:30. > :40:34.integrity, for fairness and justice. That is my mission in life, to make
:40:35. > :40:38.a difference to every single child's life that I can touch. Half of
:40:39. > :40:43.seven-year-olds have less than an hour of daily exercise. And being
:40:44. > :40:47.Baroness Floella Benjamin of Beckenham is very significant for
:40:48. > :40:52.me. When my parents wanted to live in Beckenham and went to view a
:40:53. > :40:56.house in Beckenham, they said the police to arrest us because they
:40:57. > :41:00.said black people don't live in a place like this. My mother said,
:41:01. > :41:04.yes, we are going to live here and she is now buried in Beckenham
:41:05. > :41:08.cemetery. She died before I became a Baroness. I went to the cemetery and
:41:09. > :41:18.I said mum, dad, I am reclaiming Beckenham for you and I am going to
:41:19. > :41:21.call myself Baroness Benjamin of Beckenham. When you were Chancellor
:41:22. > :41:24.at Exeter university, did you hug every graduate? Yes, I was the
:41:25. > :41:27.Chancellor for ten years and I decided when I became Chancellor
:41:28. > :41:33.that I would hope people. I love hugging. I never missed a single
:41:34. > :41:37.graduation ceremony. They all shout, Chancellor! We love you! I love
:41:38. > :41:42.giving that love and affection to them because I know they in turn
:41:43. > :41:46.will go out and change the world. Listen, you are the TV presenter's
:41:47. > :41:51.presenter because we all grew up watching you on the TV. I need to
:41:52. > :41:56.know that I have graduated from the university of their well Benjamin's
:41:57. > :42:06.presenting the eight honours. Can I get a hug? You have passed! Lovely,
:42:07. > :42:13.there we go! Thank you so much, Floella Benjamin. It is time for us
:42:14. > :42:14.to go now, until tomorrow. Goodbye. Tommy never gives up the chance of a
:42:15. > :42:16.hug. Baroness Benjamin, or just
:42:17. > :42:18.Floella to millions, Today is the start of
:42:19. > :42:21.a national week of prayer Christian groups are urging us all
:42:22. > :42:27.to think about people behind bars, Rehabilitation is also vital
:42:28. > :42:32.and this week a report into a government scheme
:42:33. > :42:35.to supervise and support released prisoners found it was
:42:36. > :42:37.failing in its aim to find The Justice Minister says a review
:42:38. > :42:40.is being carried out. But clearly it's an uphill task
:42:41. > :42:43.to give former So do prisoners deserve
:42:44. > :42:47.more compassion? We are joined now by columnist
:42:48. > :42:56.and commentator Carole Malone and from Bristol by Matt Wall
:42:57. > :42:59.who is on the Prisons Week Committee and is national secretary
:43:00. > :43:01.to the Community Chaplaincy network supporting chaplains
:43:02. > :43:09.who work with offenders. The main purpose is prison is
:43:10. > :43:12.rehabilitation and for that you need compassion. I don't agree that is
:43:13. > :43:17.the main purpose prison. In the first place it is punishment then
:43:18. > :43:21.rehabilitation. I think the problem for me and a lot of people who see
:43:22. > :43:25.what is happening in the prison system today is the fact is we live
:43:26. > :43:29.in a country now where more time, attention and money is spent on
:43:30. > :43:35.criminals and not enough on the victims. A senior government adviser
:43:36. > :43:39.said last year that the victims are now sidelined in the criminal
:43:40. > :43:44.justice system, which focuses on criminals. That isn't fair. If
:43:45. > :43:49.someone has been robbed, raped, stabbed, murdered, my compassion is
:43:50. > :43:54.for them, not for the people who did it. Yes, I believe rehabilitation is
:43:55. > :43:57.important. But I think punishment burst. People have got to be
:43:58. > :44:01.accountable and take responsibility for what they did because we owe
:44:02. > :44:06.that to victims and their families. How do you make the balance, I win?
:44:07. > :44:13.I have been violently rocked myself and I don't want other people to be.
:44:14. > :44:19.It is not the case of wishy-washy, hand-wringing liberals who just care
:44:20. > :44:23.about the criminal, I was a victim of crime, rather than the victims
:44:24. > :44:27.themselves. It is just that the system isn't working. Half of
:44:28. > :44:32.prisoners reoffend within the first year. It is not working. You will
:44:33. > :44:35.not like the Norwegian justice system and I will put that out
:44:36. > :44:39.there. They have a prison system which is the Daily Mail's worst
:44:40. > :44:44.nightmare. I know you don't work for the Daily Mail! I didn't mean you.
:44:45. > :44:48.They imprison far fewer people per capita. They have comfortable prison
:44:49. > :44:52.cells and they are allowed to socialise and the focus is on
:44:53. > :44:57.rehabilitation and their reoffending rate is much lower than ours. If our
:44:58. > :45:02.starting point is to stop crime, start there. Our prisons are pretty
:45:03. > :45:09.good as well. A lot of prisoners say their prisons are better than where
:45:10. > :45:14.they live. That is an indictment of those conditions! Let us talk to
:45:15. > :45:21.somebody who works with offenders, a chaplain. Matt, why do prisoners
:45:22. > :45:25.deserve mercy, prayers and compassion?
:45:26. > :45:33.I am delighted to launch the prisons we campaign which is about racing
:45:34. > :45:36.complex issues. We don't just talk about prisoners, we talk about
:45:37. > :45:43.victims and everyone else involved in the criminal justice system, and
:45:44. > :45:48.wanting communities to be somewhat of -- to be supportive. If you look
:45:49. > :45:55.at research, it shows that punitive approaches to prison lead to a
:45:56. > :46:01.higher reoffending rate. Let's face it, most people will come out of
:46:02. > :46:06.prison eventually. Evidence shows that building trusting relationships
:46:07. > :46:12.and having positive role models and accepting communities gives a much
:46:13. > :46:15.higher chance of leaving a criminal lifestyle. Compassion is important
:46:16. > :46:20.and it enables people to make those long-term changes that are going to
:46:21. > :46:23.lead to more productive lives. Theodore, what about the role of
:46:24. > :46:30.religion when it comes to rehabilitating people in prison? I
:46:31. > :46:34.agree that rehabilitation is the wrong word. My experience of
:46:35. > :46:39.religion in prison is that there is a time at which prisoners have had
:46:40. > :46:43.enough of crime, the life of crime, and they give up anyway. If you look
:46:44. > :46:52.at those statistics of robbers and burglars, they give up by the age of
:46:53. > :46:56.39, whatever you do. Whether religion makes people give up or
:46:57. > :47:00.they are thinking of giving up and they become religious, I'm not quite
:47:01. > :47:05.sure. What word with you use instead of rehabilitation? Rehabilitation
:47:06. > :47:09.implies that there is something wrong, that it is a moral
:47:10. > :47:15.physiotherapy. I don't think that is so. Statistics show that prisoners
:47:16. > :47:25.rehabilitate themselves in the sense that before long they give up
:47:26. > :47:31.themselves. Is there a point at which people are beyond
:47:32. > :47:35.rehabilitation, beyond compassion? I think we need more compassion, not
:47:36. > :47:39.less, whether it is for the victims of crime or the perpetrators. There
:47:40. > :47:45.is a pragmatic as well as a moral point. In this country, almost 80%
:47:46. > :47:47.of prisoners are people who have reoffended, so clearly, the prison
:47:48. > :47:53.system in this country is not working. As Owen said, he went
:47:54. > :47:59.through a horrendous experience. You don't want other people going
:48:00. > :48:06.through that. Murderers have a choice about whether to murder, so
:48:07. > :48:13.do rapists. I prefer the word mercy. My mercy is for the people have been
:48:14. > :48:17.raped and Rob Dunmore don't. If we live in a society where equal
:48:18. > :48:22.amounts of time and money were spent to fix -- on victims... Report was
:48:23. > :48:29.produced last year that said victims of crime feel isolated and ignored.
:48:30. > :48:34.Because our criminal justice system is broken. They are the priority for
:48:35. > :48:42.me, and the people who commit the crimes come second. Owen. We're
:48:43. > :48:47.basically locking up mentally ill poor people. That is a failure of
:48:48. > :48:49.Government and of society. On that again, the point about
:48:50. > :48:53.rehabilitation and fight is important, is because it is
:48:54. > :48:59.important for preventing more victims. All prisoners, almost all,
:49:00. > :49:10.will come back into society at some point. But it isn't working. Are we
:49:11. > :49:23.not interested in what works? My main interest... My main interest is
:49:24. > :49:26.victims,... How do we stop more people like me who have been victims
:49:27. > :49:30.of crime repeatedly, how do we stop that? We do it by being pragmatic in
:49:31. > :49:35.looking at what works. It works in Norway. You have to make the
:49:36. > :49:39.distinction between primary prevention, which is preventing
:49:40. > :49:44.people from becoming criminals in the first place, from what you do
:49:45. > :49:48.when they have become criminal. Let's get the view from Matt, then.
:49:49. > :49:56.Does prison work in terms of allowing prisoners to come back into
:49:57. > :50:02.society and be a positive part of society? There is a really high
:50:03. > :50:06.reoffending rate at the moment. 46% of people leaving prison reoffend
:50:07. > :50:12.within a year. So there is clearly a lot more to be done. I would call
:50:13. > :50:15.for more innovative, community-based responses to enable people to have a
:50:16. > :50:20.fresh start, and for communities to give people a chance. If you are an
:50:21. > :50:24.employer, look at finding opportunities where people with
:50:25. > :50:27.criminal convictions can take a job with you. If you are in a
:50:28. > :50:31.neighbourhood or a church, welcome people, except them and see the best
:50:32. > :50:35.in them while being aware of risks, but having structures in place for
:50:36. > :50:38.those. Do you think prisoners are being sent to prison for long enough
:50:39. > :50:44.if the reoffending rates are so high, Matt? I would like to see
:50:45. > :50:47.fewer people in prison. In recent years, there have been fewer young
:50:48. > :50:51.people going into prison, and that is a good trend that I would like to
:50:52. > :50:57.see continued with women and lower risk offenders. There should be more
:50:58. > :51:03.innovative community-based responses where people can reintegrate into
:51:04. > :51:07.communities rather than damaging responses that can perpetuate
:51:08. > :51:13.problems and we'll see further crime as a result. Can I ask, do you think
:51:14. > :51:20.prisons are tough enough? My view is that if they were tougher, people
:51:21. > :51:27.wouldn't want to go back there. Can you hear me, Matt? Just quickly, the
:51:28. > :51:33.United States are very tough prisons but they have a higher crime rate.
:51:34. > :51:43.No they don't actually, they have a lower rate. Lower than Britain? Yes,
:51:44. > :51:54.they do. Apart from the very important crime of murder. They have
:51:55. > :52:00.had a higher rate since the colonies were established there. We look at
:52:01. > :52:06.the figures for violent crime, per crime, in France, I looked it up,
:52:07. > :52:10.and this with the difficulties that might there are difficulties with
:52:11. > :52:16.comparison, they had a six to an eighth of the rate of Spain. The
:52:17. > :52:24.idea that we are terribly punitive is just not true. If that were the
:52:25. > :52:35.case, then making the prison regime less pleasant woodwork, it doesn't.
:52:36. > :52:39.In places like Sweden and Norway, where they have followed through on
:52:40. > :52:44.a different rehabilitation approach, they are shutting down prisons. The
:52:45. > :52:47.reoffending rate is less than half of what we have here, so surely we
:52:48. > :52:52.should have some humility and see what works. It should never be about
:52:53. > :52:56.victims or prisoners, it has to be about compassion for both. Let's
:52:57. > :53:00.find out what the viewers are saying. We're hearing what these
:53:01. > :53:09.guys are saying all the time - your important, too. It is an emotive
:53:10. > :53:11.subject, and people are showing that compassion depends on the crime that
:53:12. > :54:07.has been committed. Lots of different views there.
:54:08. > :54:15.Apologies, our guest in Bristol has lost Sam. So we have lost Matt. So,
:54:16. > :54:19.compassion. Yes, one of the people said get rehabilitation after you
:54:20. > :54:22.have served time and realised what you've done. You feel accountable
:54:23. > :54:28.for your crime and you understand what you're done, then rehabilitate.
:54:29. > :54:33.I think it has be earned. People go into prison and they do three GCSEs,
:54:34. > :54:38.they get free health care, free dentistry, everything. It is not a
:54:39. > :54:41.terrible place to be these days. The idea that depriving someone of
:54:42. > :54:49.liberty is punishment enough - it isn't. We have got Matt back. We try
:54:50. > :54:53.to ask you whether or not you think the prison system is tough enough on
:54:54. > :55:00.prisoners to enable them to serve their punishment and then be ready
:55:01. > :55:04.to come out into society? We need rehabilitative approaches in prison.
:55:05. > :55:07.46% of people leaving prison reoffend within a year, and we need
:55:08. > :55:12.to be creative about finding waste of supporting them to make changes
:55:13. > :55:16.and to believe in them, that they can live a better future that
:55:17. > :55:21.doesn't have to be characterised by their past. Theodore. I think the
:55:22. > :55:25.fact that so many reoffend so quickly is an argument for longer
:55:26. > :55:31.sentences, frankly. Given the fact that most people will give up crime
:55:32. > :55:34.later in their lives. We do have fairly long sentences. There are
:55:35. > :55:38.people in prison today for having done graffiti and they were
:55:39. > :55:43.sentenced for two three years. Then they are mixing with rapists and
:55:44. > :55:48.murderers, and prisons are becoming finishing schools for criminals.
:55:49. > :55:52.Final word. I am a peacemaker. I think we should have less
:55:53. > :55:56.non-violent criminals in prison and we should be locking up more races,
:55:57. > :56:02.for example. If you rate in Britain, you get away with it in most cases.
:56:03. > :56:03.Thank you, all, for a great and lively panel discussion. I hope you
:56:04. > :56:04.enjoyed it. That's just about all
:56:05. > :56:06.from us for today. To sing us out, we have a musical
:56:07. > :56:10.trio who are as at home They've sung for the Queen
:56:11. > :56:14.and the Pope and are Here are The Priests
:56:15. > :56:17.with Morning Has Broken. # Blackbird has spoken
:56:18. > :56:45.# Like the first bird # Praise for the springing
:56:46. > :57:04.# Fresh from the word # Sweet the rain's new fall,
:57:05. > :57:14.# Sunlit from heaven # Like the first dewfall,
:57:15. > :57:20.# On the first grass # Praise for the sweetness
:57:21. > :57:29.# Of the wet garden # Sprung in completeness
:57:30. > :57:48.# Where his feet pass # Mine is the sunlight,
:57:49. > :57:51.# Mine is the morning # Born of the one
:57:52. > :57:58.light # Praise with elation,
:57:59. > :58:11.# praise every morning # Mine is the sunlight,
:58:12. > :58:27.# Mine is the morning # Born of the one
:58:28. > :58:30.light # Praise with elation,
:58:31. > :58:44.# praise every morning