:00:00. > :00:10.On today's programme: Singer Lily Allen has been under
:00:11. > :00:13.fire for expressing her views on young migrants in France.
:00:14. > :00:22.Should we care what celebrities think about political issues?
:00:23. > :00:26.I apologise on behalf of my country. I am sorry for what we have put you
:00:27. > :00:31.through. A female business leader
:00:32. > :00:33.says women take too much We talk to one mother
:00:34. > :00:48.who was back working two I would have lots and lots of text
:00:49. > :00:50.messages from my husband, photographs, for example of him
:00:51. > :00:54.crying and saying what do I do? Would you take the Bible
:00:55. > :00:56.to a desert island? A new survey reveals
:00:57. > :01:01.a majority would not. Is the world's bestselling books
:01:02. > :01:04.still relevant? And she's known as Attila the Nun,
:01:05. > :01:06.so how will Hardeep Singh Kholi cope with
:01:07. > :01:13.the formidable Sister Rita? When I talk, you shut up. It has
:01:14. > :01:19.been like nothing else I have experienced. I felt like a schoolboy
:01:20. > :01:26.again, to be honest. If you are not happy with it, not on my door and we
:01:27. > :01:32.will discuss it, OK? -- knock on my door.
:01:33. > :01:34.Our panel is here, and so is Tommy Sandhu, who'll be
:01:35. > :01:47.You can be a part of the show from the comfort of your sofa. This is
:01:48. > :02:17.how you can get involved: Can and be part of the show. There
:02:18. > :02:21.is no excuse for not getting involved, is there?
:02:22. > :02:25.Sophia Cannon is a family law expert and broadcaster.
:02:26. > :02:26.Rosie Millard is a journalist and writer.
:02:27. > :02:30.And Pastor Clement Okusi is lead pastor
:02:31. > :02:39.When singer Lily Allen visited the so-called Jungle migrant camp
:02:40. > :02:41.near Calais to investigate the plight of unaccompanied
:02:42. > :02:47.young people, she was overcome by what she saw.
:02:48. > :03:06.It is a geographical lottery. Wherever you are born in the world.
:03:07. > :03:09.I know that I wouldn't like to end up here though. I certainly wouldn't
:03:10. > :03:13.want my children to end up here. There was support for her views
:03:14. > :03:18.from some, but also a backlash against them on social media,
:03:19. > :03:20.with Lily Allen being accused of shedding crocodile tears
:03:21. > :03:22.and being a champagne socialist. The popstar isn't the first
:03:23. > :03:25.celebrity to step into Tommy's been sampling public
:03:26. > :03:40.opinion in Birmingham. Whether it is Bono and live aid,
:03:41. > :03:43.Russell Brand and the election or Leonardo DiCaprio and climate
:03:44. > :03:48.change, celebrities are not shy when it comes to lending their voices to
:03:49. > :03:52.a cause, but are they the right people for the job? I think it is a
:03:53. > :03:56.good thing. When you look at what David Beckham has done with Unicef,
:03:57. > :04:00.it raises the profile. I think some of them believe in the charity and
:04:01. > :04:06.the causes, but mostly it is a PR stunt for them. The publicity it
:04:07. > :04:10.generates is fantastic so long as it isn't just a promotional stunt to
:04:11. > :04:14.further their persona. Lily Allen came under fire this week because
:04:15. > :04:18.she apologised on behalf of England. Should she do that? It is
:04:19. > :04:22.questionable for her to do that. Can she speak for everyone? I don't
:04:23. > :04:26.know. It is great for anyone to do something positive that is reaching
:04:27. > :04:30.out for others. There is no need for Lily Allen to apologise for her
:04:31. > :04:38.country. She has millions in the bank. Why not buy that kid a home in
:04:39. > :04:42.London? Are you more likely to get involved if someone is an ambassador
:04:43. > :04:51.of a charity that you like? I like chef Ramsay. Are people doing it for
:04:52. > :04:56.their own profile and status or the cause itself? To be honest, if it is
:04:57. > :05:04.doing it for the cause that needs to be done, I don't think it matters.
:05:05. > :05:07.They may not have the education to link back to the argument, but we
:05:08. > :05:13.get behind them because of their popularity. They may have their own
:05:14. > :05:19.agenda behind it but it is still a good attribute. David Beckham? No.
:05:20. > :05:23.Bono? Chris Martin from Coldplay? They are just making the world a
:05:24. > :05:27.better place. They could make the world a better place by donating a
:05:28. > :05:33.lot of their money to the causes and helping them that way. Varied views
:05:34. > :05:38.in Birmingham. What do you make of Lily Allen's comments? I thought it
:05:39. > :05:43.was absolutely right. She is bringing the world's attention to a
:05:44. > :05:48.terrible situation. Small children unaccompanied in the Jungle. 18 of
:05:49. > :05:52.them have been lost recently, just disappeared, and our government has
:05:53. > :05:57.been dragging its feet. Theresa May has agreed they should come in, and
:05:58. > :06:00.the bureaucracy and the paperwork has been completely bewildering, and
:06:01. > :06:04.we are left with very vulnerable young people in this terrible state.
:06:05. > :06:08.We are talking about it now and we wouldn't be if Lily Allen hadn't
:06:09. > :06:13.bothered to go there. What is her crime? We are slating her for being
:06:14. > :06:18.a human being and that is disgraceful. I think that is what
:06:19. > :06:21.people are questioning. Was it rubber dial to years? I am not going
:06:22. > :06:35.to question her motives. That is not my place. Some people think it is
:06:36. > :06:39.their place. Do we want to live in a world where celebrities decide
:06:40. > :06:42.government policy? That is what we are moving towards. When Angelina
:06:43. > :06:47.Jolie goes to Africa to highlight the plight of sexually abused women,
:06:48. > :06:49.she is drawing the attention of the world to something that most people
:06:50. > :06:55.would like to brush under the carpet. That is a very good example.
:06:56. > :06:58.Angelina Jolie is highlighting a cause, and not talking about a
:06:59. > :07:02.particular government's action or lack of action and not apologising
:07:03. > :07:06.for something. The scary thing is we end up in a situation like in
:07:07. > :07:10.America where whoever wins an election could be decided by however
:07:11. > :07:15.many Hollywood stars think they are good person, which is not good. I
:07:16. > :07:24.actually think the emotive subject of this immigration campaign in
:07:25. > :07:27.Calais, the Jungle as is called, is more of a problem. If it wasn't,
:07:28. > :07:33.there would be less reaction to what Lily Allen has done. Social
:07:34. > :07:37.philanthropy has been a thing for centuries. Elizabeth Fry was looking
:07:38. > :07:42.at reforming prisons. Florence Nightingale Hammerson duck the issue
:07:43. > :07:49.of public health. And recently we had Princess Diana, who looked at
:07:50. > :07:54.uncomfortable situations, AIDS and landmines, and it is the focus that
:07:55. > :07:59.a pretty face can bring to a political situation. Use it. I am
:08:00. > :08:04.not going to slate any woman, any celebrity, who gets off their high
:08:05. > :08:08.horse, goes into the mud, goes to Jungle and has a look. That
:08:09. > :08:12.photograph of Princess Diana holding the hand of somebody dying of AIDS
:08:13. > :08:15.was really important. Before then, it was taboo, and people didn't want
:08:16. > :08:19.to go close to anyone who was thought of as having it. It went
:08:20. > :08:24.around the world and did a huge amount of good. But did Princess
:08:25. > :08:33.Diana apologise for her government's actions and try to set government
:08:34. > :08:35.policy? I think the government's actions with regard to unaccompanied
:08:36. > :08:44.children in the Jungle is disgraceful acts -- actually. If she
:08:45. > :08:49.demonstrates how upset she is by an awful situation, or if she
:08:50. > :08:55.apologises on behalf of the nation for their actions, is that what is
:08:56. > :08:59.really niggling? She apologised for her words afterwards. We actually
:09:00. > :09:06.went there with Croydon in a few years ago and that camp has been
:09:07. > :09:09.there since 2009. We took several tonnes of aid and we drove a van
:09:10. > :09:14.across the channel and there were already lots of government agencies
:09:15. > :09:19.working there. So I don't think we are unaware of the plight of the
:09:20. > :09:23.camp at Calais, and I think we do need to be careful when someone
:09:24. > :09:29.feels qualified to speak on behalf of a country because of their
:09:30. > :09:34.supposedly pretty status. I have no problem with Lily Allen. She is a
:09:35. > :09:38.nice girl. Music. Originally reggae music. I don't have a problem with
:09:39. > :09:45.their musically but she is popular for music. She is entitled to her
:09:46. > :09:49.opinion, as everyone is, but I do understand that celebrities have a
:09:50. > :09:54.voice and column inches. When I went to Calais nobody made a fuss about
:09:55. > :09:58.it. People doing the work don't get any coverage. Yes, and we are still
:09:59. > :10:02.in contact with people in the camp in Calais and they would love the
:10:03. > :10:06.publicity that Lily Allen provides. The problem is that these are people
:10:07. > :10:10.from a particular charitable organisation and they are not
:10:11. > :10:13.individual celebrities going off their own back on speaking on behalf
:10:14. > :10:20.of me. I like her but she doesn't speak for me. So when she decides to
:10:21. > :10:25.apologise for the entire country, I think she is misunderstanding her
:10:26. > :10:29.role. The fact is there is gross hypocrisy here. It was discussed in
:10:30. > :10:33.the House of Commons that we should do something about unaccompanied
:10:34. > :10:39.children, discussed one year ago. And Lily Allen is the solution? No,
:10:40. > :10:43.the point is that hasn't happened. These vulnerable unaccompanied
:10:44. > :10:48.children have been stuck in some sort of bureaucratic no-go zone, and
:10:49. > :10:51.18 have gone missing. I think it is disgraceful and I think the nation
:10:52. > :10:55.should be ashamed of itself and the government should be. I want to move
:10:56. > :11:00.this conversation away from the Jungle because that is another
:11:01. > :11:04.debate that we could have and we have discussed before. Talking about
:11:05. > :11:07.celebrities, you touched on the US presidential campaign earlier. We
:11:08. > :11:11.are seeing celebrities from all over the United States endorsing their
:11:12. > :11:16.candidates. Is that right? I can't stop somebody endorsing a candidate
:11:17. > :11:20.but I don't want to live in a world where the government is saying, how
:11:21. > :11:24.do we convince Lily Allen to endorse this policy? Otherwise we will be
:11:25. > :11:29.out by summer! I did want to live in that world. If you think it is a
:11:30. > :11:38.nice world, cool, but for me, the more we let politicians do their job
:11:39. > :11:39.and not have celebrities as intermediaries between people. But
:11:40. > :11:44.do politicians have the influence that celebrities do on the general
:11:45. > :11:48.public? A lot of people have a lot of influence but it is elitist to
:11:49. > :11:53.say that the celebrities should be there. Did we need Lily Allen to
:11:54. > :11:59.tell us to care? Yes, I think so. So we are all psychopaths and all the
:12:00. > :12:04.people in the street were all psychopaths before Lily Allen awoke
:12:05. > :12:08.the masses? I feel that the issue is that we have an echo from history.
:12:09. > :12:14.We had the Kinderstransport, when we did more then, when we didn't have
:12:15. > :12:19.social media, when it wasn't publicised to that extent. When we
:12:20. > :12:27.went to war, we had Operation Pied Piper, when as a nation we managed
:12:28. > :12:31.to move a mass of inner-city children, 700,000 children, to
:12:32. > :12:36.safety. We can do that here. With government intervention. And if it
:12:37. > :12:41.needs a celebrity to remind us of our social conscience, then let her
:12:42. > :12:45.do it. This is what charities do, isn't it? They have celebrity
:12:46. > :12:49.ambassadors and it works effectively for them. You have got to have the
:12:50. > :12:54.right celebrity and you need people smart enough to carry forward the
:12:55. > :13:01.argument. You can't just bung anyone onto a campaign. But the thing is, I
:13:02. > :13:06.think that policies are quite abstract theories are abstract,
:13:07. > :13:11.large gestures can be sometimes abstract, and one person can bring a
:13:12. > :13:15.focus onto something. It has been going on for decades. Queen Victoria
:13:16. > :13:22.used chloroform in childbirth and after she used it, she was a
:13:23. > :13:27.pioneer. She used anaesthesia in childbirth and millions of women
:13:28. > :13:31.followed suit. Celebrities do good things will charities, highlighting
:13:32. > :13:36.good causes, but how much of it benefits the celebrity, being tagged
:13:37. > :13:44.on to a charity or worthy cause? We have got to look at whether it is a
:13:45. > :13:50.photo opportunity. Whether it is a hashtag. Celebrities who are just
:13:51. > :13:54.there for the photo opportunity, the hashtag, pushing the agenda for
:13:55. > :13:58.their own benefit. But we are sophisticated now. As you say, we do
:13:59. > :14:02.not just vote for somebody because a celebrity wants us to. We have got
:14:03. > :14:07.an idea now because of social media and the emphasis on it on looking at
:14:08. > :14:15.different types of politics. You disagree. I strongly disagree. The
:14:16. > :14:21.western world that we live in lax discernment when it comes to
:14:22. > :14:24.celebrities. We have mentioned the US presidential election. Donald
:14:25. > :14:28.Trump could become the most powerful man in the world is not because he
:14:29. > :14:35.is a great businessman but because of his celebrity status. Would you
:14:36. > :14:39.vote for him if you were American? This is an argument because there is
:14:40. > :14:43.a lack of discernment about his character, his morality and what he
:14:44. > :14:47.stands for, and yet he is very close to the White House. But that is
:14:48. > :14:52.nothing to do with celebrity endorsement. Well, it is. It is
:14:53. > :14:56.society saying we don't care too much about your character and your
:14:57. > :15:02.moral compass. You are a celebrity, you are famous, we are going to give
:15:03. > :15:06.you a pass even though you are not qualified to be a politician. This
:15:07. > :15:08.is the scary thing. When we make celebrities into something bigger
:15:09. > :15:16.than what they are, this is the reality. They let you do it because
:15:17. > :15:21.you are a celebrity. In this century and in the last century, we have had
:15:22. > :15:26.the call to the personality. We have had strong men coming forward with
:15:27. > :15:32.big ideas, with huge personal charisma. This is nothing new. But
:15:33. > :15:36.what we do have now, thank goodness, is the ability for other people like
:15:37. > :15:38.ourselves to have education, to go on internet and find out the history
:15:39. > :15:45.of these people. Fry was looking at reforming the
:15:46. > :15:50.Prince. Because we've got the internet we don't need Lily less
:15:51. > :15:56.than, is that what you're saying? The Pope is being vocal about the
:15:57. > :16:03.migrant camp and yet we are here talking about Lily Allen's reaction
:16:04. > :16:06.to the Jungle camp in Calais. What does that say about the role that
:16:07. > :16:12.religion plays in highlighting that role in society? It used to be the
:16:13. > :16:18.Church or certain pillars of community. Now it can be a young
:16:19. > :16:23.girl who has a troubled past and from her own confession has had some
:16:24. > :16:29.difficulty in life and now she decides she wants to apologise for
:16:30. > :16:33.60 million people. Equally she is a successful songwriter and recording
:16:34. > :16:37.artist as well. But what does it say about how effective the Church is?
:16:38. > :16:42.Society in western culture, society has shifted away from the Church.
:16:43. > :16:47.Where we used to get more direction from the Church, we can talk about
:16:48. > :16:52.the Bible later on. There's become a vacuum. The cult of celebrity has
:16:53. > :16:56.begun to fill that vacuum Do you think religious leaders could fill
:16:57. > :17:01.that vacuum if they were a bit more on it. Absolutely. What err when you
:17:02. > :17:09.you say, on it, what do you mean? Ing being relevant. If you look at
:17:10. > :17:15.self help books. If you look at the Secret, it is popular because it
:17:16. > :17:19.captured the moment. It wasn't someone reading from a book, fire
:17:20. > :17:24.and brimstone. That that's a bit of a caricature. It is, that's why I
:17:25. > :17:28.used it to illustrate myself point. If we want to take religious values
:17:29. > :17:31.and put them in popular culture, I think it is religious leaders who
:17:32. > :17:33.have to do that. You've been sending us your texts
:17:34. > :17:36.and tweets on this. Let's hear some of your
:17:37. > :17:43.reactions from Tommy. Some people are saying Lily can't
:17:44. > :17:46.claim to speak on behalf of a country. Others are saying we should
:17:47. > :17:52.care what celebrities think because of the positive impact they can
:17:53. > :17:56.have. Patricia says why criticise somebody using their celebrity
:17:57. > :18:01.status to try and do good? Talking about Lily. Elizabeth says, good on
:18:02. > :18:06.her for trying to raise awareness. We shouldn't mead celebrities to
:18:07. > :18:36.bring political issues to our attention...
:18:37. > :18:45.Really varied views there. Omar, one of the things brought up about the
:18:46. > :18:49.hypocrisy of wealth. Where not use the money you've earned as a
:18:50. > :18:54.celebrity to do something about it? This is what Clement is saying.
:18:55. > :18:58.People there without a film crew, without a PR or make-up artist, the
:18:59. > :19:02.people who are opening up their houses to refugees, they are not
:19:03. > :19:07.making headlines. She did offer to take a child, a migrant child. OK,
:19:08. > :19:11.that's cool. Is that what you need to see from celebrities? Is that
:19:12. > :19:15.what society needs to see? Rather than having a go at celebrities
:19:16. > :19:18.wouldn't it be nice if we could spread out the media attention so
:19:19. > :19:23.that the people doing the work get attention. People aren't interested
:19:24. > :19:27.in seeing anonymous people. They want to seep people who they have an
:19:28. > :19:31.emotional engagement with. That's the power of celebrity. You have an
:19:32. > :19:36.emotional engagement with the Lily Allen. Who knows? It is impertinent
:19:37. > :19:42.to say they are not giving any money, but who knows how much money
:19:43. > :19:46.they are giving to good causes. Because celebrities are often low
:19:47. > :19:50.profile, you are right; snookers We don't know how much money they are
:19:51. > :19:54.giving. If she is prepared or celebrities are prepared to talk
:19:55. > :20:00.about how much work they are doing, physically showing that they are
:20:01. > :20:04.there... If she gives I give X thousand pounds a year. You are so
:20:05. > :20:10.lucky you can give money and you are like Lady Muck. It would be a
:20:11. > :20:14.nightmare. We don't want it to be quantified. We want it to be
:20:15. > :20:19.justified. She's gone out there, walked the walk, talked the talk. In
:20:20. > :20:23.my opinion she has gone up in my estimations. She didn't have make-up
:20:24. > :20:32.on. She stayed overnight and she has offered to take a child into her
:20:33. > :20:40.home. Would we feel the same way about Katie Hopkins taking in a
:20:41. > :20:45.child? No! We are not going there. We've found the line!
:20:46. > :20:47.Still to come on Sunday Morning Live:
:20:48. > :20:54.Katie Melua and the Gori Women's choir sing Dreams On Fire.
:20:55. > :20:57.One of the UK's leading businesswomen has said that taking
:20:58. > :21:02.long maternity leave is bad for women's careers.
:21:03. > :21:04.Lady Barbara Judge, who's the first female chair
:21:05. > :21:07.of the Institute of Directors, says a nanny can be paid
:21:08. > :21:10.to look after a baby, because a long break
:21:11. > :21:14.can damage future job prospects for women.
:21:15. > :21:16.Her reported comments at a conference in London have been
:21:17. > :21:19.criticised by the parenting charity NCT, which says early bonding
:21:20. > :21:23.We'll discuss the pros and cons in a moment.
:21:24. > :21:25.First, let's meet someone directly affected.
:21:26. > :21:31.She was starting a new job when he was born, so had
:21:32. > :21:36.a tough choice to make, as she told Samanthi Flanagan.
:21:37. > :21:42.How soon was it after giving Bert to William that you went back to work?
:21:43. > :21:47.William about two weeks and one day old. That is quick by anyone's
:21:48. > :21:53.standards. Why did you decide to go back so soon? Well, I had originally
:21:54. > :21:58.planned to go back probably within about six weeks for financial
:21:59. > :22:03.reasons mainly. My husband stopped working and so there were lots of
:22:04. > :22:07.other circumstances really that led to it. Tell me what your first month
:22:08. > :22:12.back at work was like? It was strange really. I would have lots of
:22:13. > :22:19.texts from my husband with photographs, for example of William
:22:20. > :22:25.crying, saying, what do I do? So I had a feeling really of helplessness
:22:26. > :22:32.quite a lot. I also was very determined to want to breast-feed.
:22:33. > :22:38.So I had to use my breast pump every five minutes. I was having to leave
:22:39. > :22:42.work at lunch times to go home to feed William myself. If you were
:22:43. > :22:46.going to do this again, do you think you would take longer before you go
:22:47. > :22:50.back to work? Absolutely. I certainly wouldn't take the whole
:22:51. > :22:55.year, because I just think I would get quite bored. But I just feel
:22:56. > :22:59.there's a lot of things I missed out on that I do regret, and I would
:23:00. > :23:04.plan completely differently next time. Lady Barbara Judge, the chair
:23:05. > :23:07.of the Institute of Directors, this week said that taking long maternity
:23:08. > :23:13.breaks is bad for women. Do you think that's true? It fends on the
:23:14. > :23:18.role that you are in. I was in a job that it probably would have made a
:23:19. > :23:21.fairly big impact on my career. What did your friends and family think
:23:22. > :23:27.when you told them you were going back to work after two weeks? They
:23:28. > :23:31.did think I was crazy understand I probably didn't understand how I was
:23:32. > :23:38.going to be feeling after I had the baby. I don't think I really knew
:23:39. > :23:40.how I was going to feel, but he no choice but to get on with it,
:23:41. > :23:50.because I had to go back. Claire Grant, who took only two
:23:51. > :23:53.weeks off, but women can take up to 52 weeks maternity
:23:54. > :23:56.leave although only 39 of Joining us for this
:23:57. > :23:59.discussion is Laura Perrins of Conservative Women UK,
:24:00. > :24:07.who campaigns for the organisation Rosie, maternity leave, too long? I
:24:08. > :24:11.think a year is too long. The mother might be, might feel deskilled,
:24:12. > :24:15.demotivated and slightly unconfident going back after such a long time
:24:16. > :24:20.away. I've got four children. My first three I was working at the
:24:21. > :24:26.BBC. I went back when they were about 8 to 10 weeks old. It was very
:24:27. > :24:29.tough, very hard, but I did suddenly feel, blimey, can I still doing this
:24:30. > :24:33.job is this even though I had taken in total 14 weeks for each child.
:24:34. > :24:37.With my last child I had left the BBC by then. I did my first job
:24:38. > :24:44.after having him when he was four days old.s he was my fourth child of
:24:45. > :24:48.he was a sweet baby, just slept in his little chair. Critically I
:24:49. > :24:52.worked at home, so I could combine work with having a baby. I was
:24:53. > :24:56.experienced at having a baby by then. It depends on what the job is
:24:57. > :25:02.whether you can take your child in. It is all very well for lady Judge
:25:03. > :25:07.to say you can hire a nanny, but these are very expensive. If you are
:25:08. > :25:10.going to go back to work with a tiny baby, putting a tiny baby into a
:25:11. > :25:16.nursery isn't the best idea. That was one of the things that was
:25:17. > :25:20.suggested, that a baby can look after the baby, because the baby
:25:21. > :25:25.isn't going to remember the mum and it just needs to be watered, fed,
:25:26. > :25:33.kept warm. It needs a lot more than that. Is maternity too long? A year
:25:34. > :25:38.isn't too long for a baby. It gently isn't too long for women or for
:25:39. > :25:42.society. It is important that we recognise that infants have very
:25:43. > :25:49.special needs and is very attached to its mother. It knows its mother's
:25:50. > :25:53.heartbeat from being in the womb. It knows its mother's voice. It is
:25:54. > :26:00.really important we support new mothers to bond with their baby.
:26:01. > :26:05.Caring should count in a society. It shouldn't just be about careers or
:26:06. > :26:10.money. It is really important that we don't put any more pressure on
:26:11. > :26:13.new mothers. Being a new mother can be quite overwhelming, because you
:26:14. > :26:18.have this tiny baby who is completely dependent on you, or
:26:19. > :26:21.certainly dependent on someone else. It is really important we don't put
:26:22. > :26:24.more pressure on mothers to get back to work. You have to have your
:26:25. > :26:29.figure a certain way. And oh by the way you have the look after the
:26:30. > :26:33.baby. The baby isn't something just to be tacked around in an adult's
:26:34. > :26:37.life. It is a priority that needs care. Sophia? I completely agree
:26:38. > :26:41.with everything Laura said, but unfortunately women, we are now
:26:42. > :26:47.economic units. We've all got student loans. We've all got
:26:48. > :26:51.mortgages and we've got childcare. We have to realise that the
:26:52. > :26:56.Government, that small businesses, family, and indeed the child itself,
:26:57. > :27:03.it is a linked unit and we have to all pull together. The thing is that
:27:04. > :27:08.the maternity legislation as it exists today is basically useless.
:27:09. > :27:11.It is actually highlighting a lot of discrimination for women. 54,000
:27:12. > :27:15.women lost their jobs as soon as they announced that they were
:27:16. > :27:21.pregnant. So the legislation itself is not fit for purpose. I wonder
:27:22. > :27:25.Omar if we can bring in the issue ofshired parental leave. How much
:27:26. > :27:30.more that can take part in evening it out and allowing women to go back
:27:31. > :27:34.to work and feel secure in their jobs and progress in their careers
:27:35. > :27:40.as well as knowing their families are looked after. Absolutely. The
:27:41. > :27:45.women here are more entitled to talk about maternity leave. But paternity
:27:46. > :27:52.leave you are entitled to. Society has really big interest in making
:27:53. > :27:57.sure our babies are emotionally attached. That was what I was going
:27:58. > :28:04.to say. A lot of guys I know want to see their babies and kids more. I
:28:05. > :28:08.think shared maternity leave is good. As long as the option is there
:28:09. > :28:14.for men to say, you have it all, love, I need to work. Some men need
:28:15. > :28:20.to be dragged kicking and screaming. It is only when it's really laid
:28:21. > :28:25.down. It is an issue of nomenclature. No man is going to
:28:26. > :28:31.must until on paternity leave when it's only two weeks. This new
:28:32. > :28:36.legislation, shared parental leave, but recent figures show that only 1%
:28:37. > :28:41.of men as a whole, not just new fathers, took it up. 1%. I'm
:28:42. > :28:45.surprised. It could be, I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than
:28:46. > :28:49.that. Where are our men stepping up to the plate? It is important that
:28:50. > :28:53.you are not unfair towards men. There are some men who do share pa
:28:54. > :28:57.paternity leave but perhaps towards the end of maternity leave, after
:28:58. > :29:00.six months. I do think it is really important that apart from
:29:01. > :29:05.exceptional circumstances that pull can be with the new baby for the
:29:06. > :29:10.first six months. I have friends who will share it around that, the dad
:29:11. > :29:14.feels more confident with not a tiny newborn. They are more confident
:29:15. > :29:19.when there's a more about the baby, say at six months or seven months.
:29:20. > :29:25.That's so patronising. It is not. I think it is. You are big dismissive
:29:26. > :29:30.of new fathers. Even new fathers with a lot of responsibility on
:29:31. > :29:35.themselves. Those not at home caring have a responsibility... As are
:29:36. > :29:41.women. It is important that the 52 weeks is there and kit with shared
:29:42. > :29:45.for the family to decide themselves, how they want to organise their
:29:46. > :29:49.lives. But mothers do not need more pressure on them when they've just
:29:50. > :29:54.had a new baby. You were saying that's dated. Sometimes on iPlayer
:29:55. > :29:59.you get the old clips from the '60s. It sounds like I was watching one of
:30:00. > :30:03.those. Politics might change. But people change. But the needs of
:30:04. > :30:08.babies don't, Omar, and I've had three. And babies don't need dads?
:30:09. > :30:13.Dads should be at the office all the time? I never said that. There are
:30:14. > :30:17.plenty of fathers who want to be at home caring for their children. But
:30:18. > :30:21.remember, it shouldn't be to the detriment of a mum who is at home
:30:22. > :30:24.who needs to recover from the birth, Omar, who may want to establish
:30:25. > :30:29.breast-feeding if that's what she want to do. It is incredibly
:30:30. > :30:34.important for both public health and for the baby herself. So new dads
:30:35. > :30:37.have a really important role in supporting mums to bond and to
:30:38. > :30:55.nurture their new babies. Fathers are very good with tiny
:30:56. > :30:59.babies. It can be very difficult for fathers. Yes, but I don't think that
:31:00. > :31:03.is across the board. Fathers are pretty decent at dealing with
:31:04. > :31:07.newborn babies in my experience. And they think it is quite tough for
:31:08. > :31:12.employers to have the workforce disappearing for a year. That is a
:31:13. > :31:22.really long time. And thirdly, in equal weight, women enjoy working.
:31:23. > :31:26.It is tough going back to work when your child is very small and you do
:31:27. > :31:35.feel a wrench. There are ways of ameliorating that. We enjoy working.
:31:36. > :31:39.I enjoyed my job and I wanted to go back to it. If you want to go back
:31:40. > :31:44.earlier, you can, but I don't like chipping away at the idea that
:31:45. > :31:47.caring doesn't count. Undermining women who wants to take their full
:31:48. > :31:56.maternity leave rights, that they are letting the side down. It is
:31:57. > :32:03.quite expensive, frankly... Of this is dependent on the employer and
:32:04. > :32:07.business's attitudes to women? You went back to work after 14 weeks and
:32:08. > :32:11.you said you were questioning yourself and your confidence. How
:32:12. > :32:13.much is it up to businesses to make sure that anyone returning from
:32:14. > :32:17.parental leave feels empowered and secure in their job when they go
:32:18. > :32:23.back? That is what I am saying. The law as it is now, the whole 52 weeks
:32:24. > :32:28.as a bloc, each and every day is wrong. Most women can now work from
:32:29. > :32:37.home. We can even do part-time maternity leave, not where you keep
:32:38. > :32:39.your hand in before, during and after your child is born. How
:32:40. > :32:42.effective is that for business? Whether it is legislation or or not,
:32:43. > :32:46.as a business owner how can you cope with someone who will dip into work
:32:47. > :32:50.because their priority is now their family and not the business and the
:32:51. > :32:55.job? How does that work? Every business I know up and down the
:32:56. > :32:58.country has human resources. We are humans. Each business has got to
:32:59. > :33:06.recognise we are employing a person and behind that person is a family.
:33:07. > :33:10.Sofia has got a point. Wi-Fi, smartphones, the internet, these
:33:11. > :33:16.feminism's greatest assets because you can work from really
:33:17. > :33:20.effectively. If you work in a supermarket or a factory you can't.
:33:21. > :33:25.And if you are a brain surgeon, you can't either. But in many jobs you
:33:26. > :33:29.can cut down the time spent in the office because you can do it at home
:33:30. > :33:33.with adequate internet and electronic devices to do that. That
:33:34. > :33:40.is a huge bonus. And often unsung bonus for women who want to stay at
:33:41. > :33:45.home and be with their children and work. Working from home is great. I
:33:46. > :33:51.do it all the time. Whatever we say about this, we need to rebalance it.
:33:52. > :33:54.We have got a generation of guys, especially more career minded
:33:55. > :33:59.old-fashioned guys, who hardly see their kids. What happens? The kids
:34:00. > :34:04.grow up with daddy issues and we have delinquent youths. You have no
:34:05. > :34:12.evidence for that. I haven't heard of a tsunami of feral children! I
:34:13. > :34:16.think a lot of children are brought up without being in contact with
:34:17. > :34:20.their fathers at all and that is a real issue for another day. But I
:34:21. > :34:26.think there are a lot of people who hardly see their dad is because the
:34:27. > :34:31.expectation is men are there just to work and women just to cook and
:34:32. > :34:34.clean. You obviously live in some caves where the feminists haven't
:34:35. > :34:41.got to you. While he comes out of his cave we will take a moment to
:34:42. > :34:46.take a breath! Let's find out what you have been saying. Tommy? Talk
:34:47. > :34:49.some reason, please. People are coming out from under their duvets
:34:50. > :35:00.this morning and getting involved in the debate. Lots of views on this.
:35:01. > :35:44.The length of maternity leave depends on individual circumstances.
:35:45. > :35:51.There are interesting. What is your reaction? Somebody raised the issue
:35:52. > :35:56.that they don't have children. So it is nothing to do with them. May I
:35:57. > :36:00.say this? We have a huge problem at the moment with elderly social care.
:36:01. > :36:04.Even though that person doesn't have children, they must have parents.
:36:05. > :36:09.They will have that same issue at the other end of their careers,
:36:10. > :36:14.their lives. What do we do with our elderly and the people who are also
:36:15. > :36:19.vulnerable, who also need care? We have got to look at this from
:36:20. > :36:22.government, through society, small businesses, to the family, and
:36:23. > :36:26.indeed to the person that needs care. If we don't, over 20 years,
:36:27. > :36:33.the whole system will grind to a halt. Women are delaying having
:36:34. > :36:39.children, having fewer children, and yet the population is getting older.
:36:40. > :36:44.The needs are there. We have got to have a national conversation about
:36:45. > :36:55.who takes time out of their economic life to look after these children
:36:56. > :37:01.and, I believe, elderly. I can't answer your questions without being
:37:02. > :37:07.destroyed on Twitter. Do you think women have a tough time? I do think
:37:08. > :37:12.women have a tough time. As a man, some of the stuff I see coming out
:37:13. > :37:17.where women should do everything, do three jobs and have four kids... And
:37:18. > :37:22.look fabulous, don't forget about that! I can't even do one job
:37:23. > :37:28.without getting tired and I can't imagine that. I was accused of being
:37:29. > :37:33.in a cave but it is good to share responsibility. Some of these
:37:34. > :37:42.comments show it is a recipe Fort Leavenworth in behind. Women are
:37:43. > :37:46.paid differently. -- a recipe for leaving women behind. Women are paid
:37:47. > :37:49.differently. Once they have children, that is it. You are only
:37:50. > :37:56.left behind if we have comments like that from the judge, who says that
:37:57. > :38:00.if you take time out, you should be left behind. I have got to wrap this
:38:01. > :38:05.conversation at because time is never on my side in this programme.
:38:06. > :38:09.Thank you for your comments and keep them coming in.
:38:10. > :38:12.She's known as Attila the Nun because of her campaigning zeal,
:38:13. > :38:14.but for Sister Rita, star of the BBC One series
:38:15. > :38:16.Sister Rita To The Rescue, her formidable nickname
:38:17. > :38:20.She oversees the Lally Centre, a drop-in facility offering help
:38:21. > :38:22.and advice in one of Manchester's most deprived areas,
:38:23. > :38:26.and when she gets her teeth into a problem, she never gives up.
:38:27. > :38:28.So it was with some trepidation that Hardeep Singh
:38:29. > :38:43.A nun for 50 years, she has made it her mission to get this community
:38:44. > :38:47.back on its feet and make a real difference to the lives of as many
:38:48. > :38:51.people as she can, in her own particular way. They don't call me
:38:52. > :39:01.the formidable Sister Rita for nothing. Having had a camera crew
:39:02. > :39:05.follow you for your series, it must have been a novel experience. Are
:39:06. > :39:10.you enjoying it? I wouldn't call it novel. They don't faze me. I don't
:39:11. > :39:18.think, there's a camera, I must comb my hair. I don't. I am who I am and
:39:19. > :39:23.I look the way I look. You have been called Attila the Nun and the
:39:24. > :39:26.formidable Sister Rita. Should I be worried? I am not sure whether you
:39:27. > :39:32.should be worried or not but maybe not. Good afternoon. Dele Alli
:39:33. > :39:40.centre. It is the boss. Who is speaking? -- Lalli centre. Mr
:39:41. > :39:46.Derbyshire, you are dead when I get you and all your employees are dead.
:39:47. > :39:50.Tell us about your upbringing. I grew up in court in southern Ireland
:39:51. > :39:54.and things were very tough and my father, God rest him, was a barber.
:39:55. > :40:01.He had to come over to England to find work. We were left, the seven
:40:02. > :40:04.of us. In those days, women in Ireland didn't work. It would have
:40:05. > :40:10.been seen as shameful if they worked. Seven children and no
:40:11. > :40:14.benefits. It was very, very tough. You couldn't be sick. You really had
:40:15. > :40:22.to be dying before you went to the doctor. I remember we didn't have
:40:23. > :40:25.food. I remember being hungry. I remember having bread and dripping,
:40:26. > :40:30.if you know what dripping is, and that was what we ate. Then when she
:40:31. > :40:35.did get money from England, which would only be once a month, we would
:40:36. > :40:41.have a huge feast and then for the rest of the month we would have
:40:42. > :40:45.famine. That is how it was. You grew up with profound deafness. Tell me a
:40:46. > :40:49.bit about that. It must have been debilitating. There wasn't a place
:40:50. > :40:53.that you could go especially for your hearing where you could get
:40:54. > :40:57.help with deafness. There were no hearing aids. I didn't learn, I
:40:58. > :41:02.didn't do any exams, I did nothing. I couldn't because I couldn't hear.
:41:03. > :41:08.You know kids that cause havoc in school? I did that. Really? Yes,
:41:09. > :41:19.really. Because I couldn't hear. I didn't know what was going on. I
:41:20. > :41:22.need attention, somebody to help me, and nobody did. Can you remember
:41:23. > :41:24.when you first got your calling? There was a lovely teacher, very
:41:25. > :41:28.young, and she couldn't teach for toffee, God love her. She came in
:41:29. > :41:33.and she said two sisters are coming in from Manchester to speak to you.
:41:34. > :41:38.I stood up and said I don't want to listen to them. I'm not staying. But
:41:39. > :41:47.I sat there. These two sisters came in. They started telling us about
:41:48. > :41:51.Manchester and how poor it was. They were the instruments used to say to
:41:52. > :41:57.me, get up. This is what you are doing. By the time they had gone
:41:58. > :42:02.out, I knew I was going to Manchester with them. I knew I
:42:03. > :42:06.wanted to be a sister. The rest is history. People have an idea that
:42:07. > :42:14.religious sisters are very quiet and docile. Go away. Clear. We are not
:42:15. > :42:18.like that at all. We are experiencing the demonisation of
:42:19. > :42:22.certain elements of society. The folk you are working with seem to
:42:23. > :42:28.have been demonised longer than most. Scroungers is what they are
:42:29. > :42:33.called. Since the programme, a lot of people have been writing in
:42:34. > :42:40.saying we didn't understand. It is helping people to understand. It
:42:41. > :42:45.isn't all about laziness or idleness. The poverty. It does
:42:46. > :42:49.something to your brain almost. It does something to your brain. You
:42:50. > :42:55.need somebody to believe in you. I say to them you can do it. I know
:42:56. > :43:02.you can do it. I think that they need to hear that. I am going to
:43:03. > :43:10.sort this today. Do you know that? Give it a bit of time. You will meet
:43:11. > :43:14.lovely people in here. Clearly you are a woman who has devoted her life
:43:15. > :43:19.to helping people. But equally Attila the Nun is quite hard on
:43:20. > :43:24.those who are not prepared to work out of their situation. Yes. Either
:43:25. > :43:28.come in now or we have to phone them and tell them you didn't show up for
:43:29. > :43:33.two days. If you're not happy with it, knock on my door and we will
:43:34. > :43:38.discuss it, OK? I say to them, if you want to come in here week in and
:43:39. > :43:43.week out, your life will never move on. The Lally Centre is a lifeline,
:43:44. > :43:48.not a lifestyle. Get up and go and find a job. I am sometimes very
:43:49. > :43:54.brusque with them. I struggle to imagine that! Well, I am. Sometimes
:43:55. > :43:59.I need it. They need it. They are no difference to me. Do you ever
:44:00. > :44:06.imagine that you might put your feet up and take a rest? I want to have
:44:07. > :44:11.time to pray more. That is what I want to do. But you will never put
:44:12. > :44:16.your feet up. I will! I didn't say I will never put my feet up. I can't
:44:17. > :44:24.see it, Sister Rita. You can't see it, but I can see it. Sister Rita,
:44:25. > :44:29.it has been like nothing else I have experienced. I felt like a schoolboy
:44:30. > :44:36.again, to be honest. Well, you are a nice schoolboy. You can have a
:44:37. > :44:38.laugh. And if you have a problem, she will sort you right out. Thank
:44:39. > :44:44.you. Yes! And Sister Rita To The Rescue
:44:45. > :44:47.returns on Monday 31st Do tune in or else
:44:48. > :44:50.you'll have to explain MUSIC: "By the Sleepy
:44:51. > :44:56.Lagoon" by Eric Coates. The Desert Island Discs
:44:57. > :44:58.theme tune, of course. One of the traditions
:44:59. > :45:00.of the long-running BBC radio programme is for host
:45:01. > :45:02.Kirsty Young to offer guests, like actor Tom Hanks,
:45:03. > :45:11.some special books. I give everybody some books to take
:45:12. > :45:15.to this island. You get the completely works of Shakespeare and
:45:16. > :45:16.the Bible. Good, I'll take those, yes.
:45:17. > :45:18.A new survey out today, however, suggests that only one
:45:19. > :45:21.in three people in the UK would take the world's best-selling book
:45:22. > :45:25.Despite that, the Church and Media Network, which carried out
:45:26. > :45:28.the poll, says the results prove that the Bible is still a valuable
:45:29. > :45:31.book, both as a work of literature, as well as being God's word.
:45:32. > :45:34.But with two thirds of people opting to leave it behind,
:45:35. > :45:37.does the survey also indicate that the Bible is being sidelined in
:45:38. > :45:39.We debate is the Bible still relevant?
:45:40. > :45:43.Joining the panel now is journalist and Guardian
:45:44. > :45:45.columnist Polly Toynbee, and down the line from our newsroom
:45:46. > :45:48.is Reverand Rico Tice, author of Christianity Explored.
:45:49. > :45:56.And rejoining the panel is Pastor Clement Okusi.
:45:57. > :46:01.Would you bring the Bible to a desert island?
:46:02. > :46:09.It would be the first book I take. The Bible or the Koran. It would be
:46:10. > :46:16.pretty long but it would sustain me. Absolutely know. What would you take
:46:17. > :46:20.instead? I might take the whole works of Dickens or Tolstoy. I think
:46:21. > :46:25.the Bible is a fascinating book as a work of history. I think it's full
:46:26. > :46:28.of some wonderful poetry. It has bits in it which are magnificent,
:46:29. > :46:36.whether it is the psalms or certain bits of it. But the idea that it is
:46:37. > :46:39.a holy book has done so much harm over the centuries. People fighting
:46:40. > :46:44.to be the people of the book. One book or another book. The Koran and
:46:45. > :46:47.the Bible I regard as highly dangerous, because people regard
:46:48. > :46:53.them as sacred texts the, word of God. They are not. They are lots of
:46:54. > :46:58.words of man. Some of them completely bonkers. Read Revelations
:46:59. > :47:03.and the end of the world and the anti-Christ and the devil... There's
:47:04. > :47:08.a lot of crazy stuff in there that would drive me mad if it was all I
:47:09. > :47:11.had to read. We touched on the Bible's relevance in a secular
:47:12. > :47:17.society. It is interesting. I'm doing a study on the book of
:47:18. > :47:23.Revelation with my congregation and it is really easy to understand if
:47:24. > :47:27.you read it slowly and think about the context of how it was written.
:47:28. > :47:31.Like the end of the world. Absolutely. I was on a TV programme
:47:32. > :47:37.and everybody agreed that we are coming to the end of the world, but
:47:38. > :47:41.just how are we going to get there. But that's a conversation for
:47:42. > :47:45.another time. Time.. If I was stuck on a desert island you would say,
:47:46. > :47:49.the world's ended, I might as well stay on a desert island. The
:47:50. > :47:53.question is whether the Bible is relevant to society. Many people
:47:54. > :48:00.hold their values on the tenets of the Bible. Does that still apply?
:48:01. > :48:04.Polly has a point, that adherence to the Bible has caused so much
:48:05. > :48:09.bloodshed over the centuries. But on the other hand it is a fantastic
:48:10. > :48:12.work of literature. It is the authorised version, there are so
:48:13. > :48:21.many elements of English literature that come from it that are inspired
:48:22. > :48:29.by it. Shakespeare is obviously one, but also the Lion King. Any number
:48:30. > :48:33.of cultural writing, outpourings. Walk into the National Gallery and
:48:34. > :48:37.you would find it difficult to understand what's going on in our
:48:38. > :48:43.prime collection of masterpieces without a knowledge of the Bible.
:48:44. > :48:50.Every Medieval painting is religious based. You touched on the Lion King.
:48:51. > :48:56.Modern interpretations. It sparks the question in me is how the Bible
:48:57. > :49:01.perhaps could be more modern and relevant in this day and age At the
:49:02. > :49:06.heart of the Bible we are looking at the person of Jesus and yes he does
:49:07. > :49:10.rise from the dead. We believe he broke into history, lived, talked,
:49:11. > :49:16.had followers. Was tried in a court, sentenced to die, strung up on a
:49:17. > :49:20.cross, taken down and certified as dead and three days later he Rose
:49:21. > :49:24.again. I've got three funerals in the next two weeks and I will be
:49:25. > :49:29.talking about hope. That is incredibly relevant to all of us.
:49:30. > :49:34.When my mother died in Basingstoke Hospital four years ago, I said
:49:35. > :49:39.dweeb, I said I love you and I will see you again. I did that, because I
:49:40. > :49:43.think the risen Christ gives me that hope. So I am thrilled to give that
:49:44. > :49:51.hope to people. That's what is at the heart of the Bible. Omar, people
:49:52. > :49:56.often swear on the Bible. Bible. I'm telling truth, I swear on the Bible.
:49:57. > :50:02.More often than not today you hear, I swear on my loved one's live.
:50:03. > :50:08.Probably as a ritualistic thing it is probably less relevant. It is
:50:09. > :50:12.interesting if we look at that particular pitch for a particular
:50:13. > :50:17.religion there, but generally religious iconography and the idea
:50:18. > :50:20.in mythology of the hero's journey, of someone disappearing and coming
:50:21. > :50:25.back, of the children of Israel wandering the desert of the all of
:50:26. > :50:29.these struggles they are the blueprint for most action movies,
:50:30. > :50:34.which is why there are so many biblical action movies. I do agree,
:50:35. > :50:39.the myths and the legends of the Bible are really important, just in
:50:40. > :50:44.the way that the myths of the Norse gods and the Greeks are important.
:50:45. > :50:46.It does worry me that children nowadays, my children, my
:50:47. > :50:50.grandchildren, know very little. When they do get interested for
:50:51. > :50:54.instance in art, they have to start right at the beginning. What exactly
:50:55. > :50:59.is the Resurrection? What is this, what is that? They should know just
:51:00. > :51:05.as they should know about the myths. I was in a gallery the other day and
:51:06. > :51:08.looking at a series of paintings of the life of John the Baptist. A
:51:09. > :51:14.woman was appearing day dancing with a friend. She said, who is this
:51:15. > :51:18.person. I said this is Salome dancing in front of Herod and she is
:51:19. > :51:23.about to ask for John the Baptist's head on a platter, and you see her
:51:24. > :51:28.presenting Herod with his het on a platter e my friend said, who is
:51:29. > :51:36.Herod? If you don't know who the baddies are and the goodies in this
:51:37. > :51:39.enormous saga, you're not going to have the cultural references that
:51:40. > :51:44.are so rich in this country. Clement, a book of myths and
:51:45. > :51:47.legends? Absolutely not. I would strongly disagree with that. I
:51:48. > :51:53.became a believer we reading the Bible. It with as the words of Jesus
:51:54. > :51:57.in the gospels that changed my life. When this show finishes I will jump
:51:58. > :52:02.on a train, go back to my congregation. I'll be on time for my
:52:03. > :52:06.sermon. We are going to hold the Bible up in the air, turn to a
:52:07. > :52:09.particular passage and the Bible is more than just good literature, more
:52:10. > :52:15.than just good fables. We believe that it is truth, eternal truth. And
:52:16. > :52:21.web believe if we base our life upon that truth, we become better people.
:52:22. > :52:25.Do you think it is disrespectful to refer to the Bible as a piece of
:52:26. > :52:29.literature? I think as has been said it is foundational to understanding
:52:30. > :52:35.our culture, but it is more than that. It is an extraordinary piece
:52:36. > :52:40.of literature. And particularly redemption. It is about how we
:52:41. > :52:44.forgive each other. Yes. I want to say yes there are desperately
:52:45. > :52:49.violent bits in the Bible, and I'm glad someone like King hor odd, for
:52:50. > :52:55.what he did to John the Baptist goes to judgment, but why is it relevant?
:52:56. > :53:00.How do we forgive each other? When I take marriage preparation, I say
:53:01. > :53:04.there are two key phrases that hold a marriage together: I'm sorry I was
:53:05. > :53:10.wrong, or I forgive you, or I love you. Those phrases come out of the
:53:11. > :53:18.death of the Lord Jesus. We think he die to forgive us, so how anyone can
:53:19. > :53:24.think it is not relevant, because I lose intimacy if I can't forgive.
:53:25. > :53:30.But Revelations is not forgiveness. It is fire and brimstone. I want to
:53:31. > :53:32.find out what viewers think. My favourite phrase today is time is
:53:33. > :54:27.tight. He just wants everybody to be happy.
:54:28. > :54:30.So do I, Tommy. Omar? It is about being happy. I might be a different
:54:31. > :54:35.kind of believer to others, because when I read the Koran or the Bible
:54:36. > :54:40.or whatever, I believe that it is true but I don't care... Care... You
:54:41. > :54:46.believe both, do you? A lot of it is the same actually. But I don't care
:54:47. > :54:51.whether it is literally true or al-Gurkhaly true or metaphorically
:54:52. > :54:56.true. For me it is you interpret it in your way. That kind of religious
:54:57. > :55:02.tradition is something that might be more palatable to yourself, Polly.
:55:03. > :55:10.What's terrifying is how lots of people do interpret it, smiting one
:55:11. > :55:14.another. In favour of slavery. All sorts of monstrous homophobic, women
:55:15. > :55:18.one step behind... Both books are really toxically dangerous and I
:55:19. > :55:28.wouldn't want to be reminded of that. I think you are misquoting the
:55:29. > :55:32.Bible. 66 books in the Bible and everyone picks on Leviticus. You
:55:33. > :55:35.mentioned slavery. It was William Wilberforce who used the Bible to
:55:36. > :55:37.end slavery. That's just about all
:55:38. > :55:41.from us for today. To sing us out, Katie Melua
:55:42. > :55:43.and the Gori Women's Choir Here's hoping all your
:55:44. > :56:19.dreams come true. Is it mine? Where am I on your list.
:56:20. > :56:32.You are so full of big ideas. Do you think that we can coexist?
:56:33. > :56:48.Will we be a pair in 20 years? If all your dreams were on fire
:56:49. > :57:04.Which one would you save? When it comes down to the wire
:57:05. > :57:22.Should I be afraid? Should I be afraid?
:57:23. > :57:37.I don't need the world to be content All I'll ever need is you
:57:38. > :57:43.Time alone with you is time well spent
:57:44. > :57:54.For me that simple dream will more than do
:57:55. > :58:10.If all your dreams were on fire Which one would you save?
:58:11. > :58:28.When it comes down to the wire Should I be afraid?
:58:29. > :58:43.If all your dreams were on fire Which one would you save?
:58:44. > :58:52.When it comes down to the wire Should I be afraid? Should I be
:58:53. > :58:58.afraid?