:00:00. > :00:15.With the so-called Jungle in Calais set for destruction
:00:16. > :00:19.by French authorities, more young migrants
:00:20. > :00:23.We ask is it racist to want tougher checks on them?
:00:24. > :00:25.The army wants to recruit more soldiers,
:00:26. > :00:28.but a charity says they shouldn't be signing up 16-year-olds.
:00:29. > :00:43.wouldn't say I am old enough to join the army because I am not that
:00:44. > :00:46.responsible. It might be a good way to steer people into a job.
:00:47. > :00:49.Newspaper criticism of a TV reporter wearing a hijab while covering
:00:50. > :00:51.a terror incident is free speech, says a watchdog.
:00:52. > :00:54.Is the press entitled to be offensive?
:00:55. > :01:04.And former teenage heart-throb Donny Osmond tells Nikki Bedi how it
:01:05. > :01:18.I didn't do anything but everybody rejected me after loving me for so
:01:19. > :01:23.many years. It is just excruciatingly painful, emotionally,
:01:24. > :01:24.because you walk around and you are thinking what are they saying about
:01:25. > :01:34.me? Our panel is here,
:01:35. > :01:37.and so is Tommy Sandhu, who'll be We love you to get involved with the
:01:38. > :02:18.show. That is the people at home covered.
:02:19. > :02:20.The panel is your responsibility. Thank you. I will take that with
:02:21. > :02:23.great grace! Esther Rantzen is a
:02:24. > :02:27.broadcaster and campaigner. James Delingpole is
:02:28. > :02:32.a columnist and novelist. Myriam Francois-Cerrah
:02:33. > :02:34.is a journalist Myriam Francois-Cerrah
:02:35. > :02:36.and Neil Wallis is a former deputy Young migrants arrived
:02:37. > :02:40.in Britain this week from the so-called Jungle camp
:02:41. > :02:42.near Calais as part of a resettlement programme
:02:43. > :02:49.for unaccompanied minors. They have been welcomed by some but
:02:50. > :02:52.also welcomed with a storm of controversy.
:02:53. > :02:54.How young are they was the main question being asked.
:02:55. > :02:59.A Tory MP was branded a racist for asking for dental
:03:00. > :03:01.checks to prove age, and sports presenter Gary Lineker
:03:02. > :03:03.kicked off a social media frenzy by saying the reaction
:03:04. > :03:05.to the new arrivals was hideously racist.
:03:06. > :03:08.We'll hear what our guests think about this issue in a moment.
:03:09. > :03:11.First let's hear what's happening at the camp in Calais today
:03:12. > :03:12.from Simon Jones, who joins us live now.
:03:13. > :03:22.Good morning. Good morning. These are the dying days of the Jungle.
:03:23. > :03:27.Absolutely squalid conditions here. Rats, mud, and if you look over
:03:28. > :03:32.there, you can see some of the building is just falling apart. It
:03:33. > :03:36.is thought this is home to at unaccompanied children. Do Jackson
:03:37. > :03:41.helps to support the migrants here. How worried are you with the
:03:42. > :03:45.bulldozers about to come in? We are really worried, particularly about
:03:46. > :03:48.the children. Everybody here is vulnerable and fleeing from
:03:49. > :03:52.something. You wouldn't live in these conditions unless you had to.
:03:53. > :03:55.The children in particular, a lot of them are still here and we are
:03:56. > :03:59.desperately worried about getting them out over the next week. It is
:04:00. > :04:02.proving controversial and taking a long time. Why is that? I think we
:04:03. > :04:24.started too late. It was only the last week that we
:04:25. > :04:26.saw children getting out. In particular under the Dublin
:04:27. > :04:29.agreement, children with strong links to the UK, being allowed to
:04:30. > :04:31.get out, that has been slow, ten or 20 a day, which is not enough to
:04:32. > :04:33.handle the 1000 children hear properly. Yesterday we saw children
:04:34. > :04:37.without links to the UK being started to be sent over but that was
:04:38. > :04:39.just 50 and we just hope they all get out this week. What do you say
:04:40. > :04:42.to people who say that these children with no links to the UK
:04:43. > :04:45.should be looked after by France? I don't mind whether France or the UK
:04:46. > :04:47.looks after them but what is important if they get looked after
:04:48. > :04:51.because they are incredibly vulnerable. You have seen the
:04:52. > :04:57.conditions here. This is no place for a child. Whether they are of 16,
:04:58. > :05:02.17, 18, 19, it is no place for people of that age. They don't know
:05:03. > :05:06.how to handle it and they don't know how to handle themselves. Thank you.
:05:07. > :05:12.Charities will be giving out via today saying it is really time to
:05:13. > :05:13.leave but there is a big question over where children will go in the
:05:14. > :05:17.long term. Thank you. Some people have called
:05:18. > :05:25.the reaction to the migrants It is certainly obvious that
:05:26. > :05:30.dehumanising language has been used when it comes to migrants and
:05:31. > :05:34.refugees. People coming from war-torn zones, very vulnerable
:05:35. > :05:39.individuals, in this case children. We have heard of marauding hordes,
:05:40. > :05:44.swarms, and a serious columnist at The Sun talking about cockroaches.
:05:45. > :05:49.When you are looking at a situation of violence, you need a language of
:05:50. > :05:53.dehumanisation to proceed at, which we are seeing. Combine that with the
:05:54. > :05:58.fact the UK is only willing to take in 20,000 Syrian refugees over five
:05:59. > :06:03.years, that is approximately 4000 people to a population of 65 million
:06:04. > :06:09.in this country, so not exactly a country that seems very welcoming to
:06:10. > :06:13.refugees. The case specifically of child refugees, David Davies, the MP
:06:14. > :06:17.who talked about dental checks, he is not exactly a paediatrician who
:06:18. > :06:21.knows the best means to ascertain the age of a child. I think it is
:06:22. > :06:25.right that we should determine the age of children coming into the UK,
:06:26. > :06:31.not least for their own welfare, because then we can determine if
:06:32. > :06:34.they need foster care, what level of education that can be inserted into,
:06:35. > :06:37.what support network they can be given when they arrive, but it is
:06:38. > :06:42.not for an MP who has no idea how to determine this to call for it. And
:06:43. > :06:44.we had the response of the royal college of Paediatricians, who said
:06:45. > :06:51.dental checks are not the most effective way of doing this because
:06:52. > :06:54.there are three to five years leeway either side. But when an MP is
:06:55. > :06:58.talking about dental checks, that is very different to an expert saying
:06:59. > :07:03.this is the best way to determine the age of children. Was it right to
:07:04. > :07:06.talk about dental checks? We can talk about the rights and wrongs and
:07:07. > :07:11.how many refugees and migrants Britain should take in every year
:07:12. > :07:16.but this is a separate issue. You have got people pretending to be
:07:17. > :07:20.children to bypass the immigration system, to cheat it in other words.
:07:21. > :07:25.They lie about their age. They destroy their passports. Some people
:07:26. > :07:29.coming in pretending to be children, we can't be sure because their body
:07:30. > :07:36.has done the proper checks, but they are estimated to be as old as the
:07:37. > :07:44.G8. They will dental -- as old as 38. The issue is seriously flawed.
:07:45. > :07:48.The problem is that if people pretend to be children and social
:07:49. > :07:53.services have got to accept them as children, then we have got men
:07:54. > :07:56.children, grown-ups being imposed on local schools, having to be looked
:07:57. > :08:00.after by foster parents, who should be looking after real children. And
:08:01. > :08:06.also they have a corrupting effect on the real children that they share
:08:07. > :08:11.a home with. If you are 25-year-old man, you will be more sexually
:08:12. > :08:15.sophisticated, more into booze, and it is not good for the children who
:08:16. > :08:20.have got to live with them. Interesting assumptions being made
:08:21. > :08:26.there. I see recoiling at those comments. You are right. That is a
:08:27. > :08:31.hypothesis that is monster rising people. What interests me most about
:08:32. > :08:36.this, you know the dubs amendment? He is an interesting man. I did a
:08:37. > :08:40.piece about a man called Sir Nicholas Winton, who was responsible
:08:41. > :08:45.for getting the only Jewish children who survived the holocaust in Prague
:08:46. > :08:54.out into British families, and one of those children was Lord Dubbs and
:08:55. > :08:59.I am thrilled that Winton's humanity survives in our desire to look after
:09:00. > :09:03.these children. I was talking to somebody who runs a charity in the
:09:04. > :09:07.circle Jungle in Calais yesterday. She told me about her concerns about
:09:08. > :09:13.them when they come to this country. They will be alone, some of the
:09:14. > :09:17.children that came over from the holocaust were not necessarily very
:09:18. > :09:22.well treated. We have got to keep a duty of care. I am not interested in
:09:23. > :09:26.the mythology about people with stubbled cheeks having sexual
:09:27. > :09:40.majority. I think that is my asthma in your brain, James. -- miasma.
:09:41. > :09:44.There is a subtle difference between what happened in 1938 in Germany
:09:45. > :09:51.went to was children who were certainly going to death camps were
:09:52. > :09:55.rescued by Britain, which is to our eternal credit. It is different when
:09:56. > :09:59.grown-ups are coming to Calais to cheat the immigration system. France
:10:00. > :10:07.is not Nazi Germany, it is not a war zone. What about Syria? I have
:10:08. > :10:12.accompanied miners in Calais and don't just take my word for it when
:10:13. > :10:17.I tell you they are fleeing extreme conditions, not just children but
:10:18. > :10:22.the adults in the area. But Unicef reports points to the real dangers
:10:23. > :10:24.facing children in these camps. Trafficking, sexual assault,
:10:25. > :10:31.violence of all varieties. This might just be me, but there is
:10:32. > :10:36.possibly a risk of as letting in a few people over the age in question,
:10:37. > :10:39.but to do that to protect an overarching number of children
:10:40. > :10:45.vulnerable to trafficking and sexual trafficking, I would say that is
:10:46. > :10:51.worth the risk. I want this to be a panel discussion. Neil, the point
:10:52. > :10:57.being made there, letting in a few rotten eggs to help the greater
:10:58. > :11:01.good? You know the real point here, don't you? A lovely long speech from
:11:02. > :11:05.the liberal elite sitting in comfortable London. I have known
:11:06. > :11:13.Esther Rantzen for many years, a lovely woman, liberal, expansive,
:11:14. > :11:16.let's be worthy, etc. Part of the issue we have got here is that the
:11:17. > :11:25.people watching at home do not connect with this. Do not connect
:11:26. > :11:31.with what? The reality is that there is a huge disconnect between the
:11:32. > :11:36.liberal life here in London and how people are outside. That is a
:11:37. > :11:43.reality... People are reacting to this. They are, but with respect,
:11:44. > :11:52.they are not only talking about this from this position. Let's have some
:11:53. > :12:00.facts. The Home Office, who are wonderfully copping this up as
:12:01. > :12:04.usual, have admitted that 60% of those who have applied to come here
:12:05. > :12:08.as children have turned out to be phonies. They haven't. That is a
:12:09. > :12:15.misreading of the statistics. It isn't true. Yesterday it turned out
:12:16. > :12:21.that roughly 50% of those who have come here have turned out not to be
:12:22. > :12:26.children. I have a very clear position on this. If these children
:12:27. > :12:31.are entitled to be here, then of course they should be. If they are
:12:32. > :12:35.real children, they should be here. But let's have some reality. You
:12:36. > :12:40.talk about Syria and war zones, they are not actually. They have
:12:41. > :12:45.travelled all the way across Europe and they are in a safe country
:12:46. > :12:50.called France. Why are they not in children's homes in France? Why
:12:51. > :12:58.don't we want them here? Those statistics are wrong. You say that.
:12:59. > :13:03.I do. Let me finish. They are based on those about whom there is some
:13:04. > :13:07.dispute. When there are told about whom there is some dispute about
:13:08. > :13:13.their age, 60% of them, as you say, but that is a tiny minority of the
:13:14. > :13:20.children who are currently... It is not 60% of all the children, it is
:13:21. > :13:23.60% of a tiny minority. Most of the children are obviously children and
:13:24. > :13:30.are being looked after and fostered here. The Home Office ought to be
:13:31. > :13:34.more open about it. We could look after more. They are children and
:13:35. > :13:39.their privacy has got to be protected. If this was your child in
:13:40. > :13:45.a vulnerable situation, you might not want to seek... Let's be
:13:46. > :13:48.finished. I wouldn't want to see my child's face. They are not the same
:13:49. > :13:53.as those coming through the other day. You are guessing and there are
:13:54. > :13:58.clearly children, which you will accept, and so on that basis,
:13:59. > :14:02.certainly their identity should be protected, as with any children. If
:14:03. > :14:06.we make the assumption they are children until they go through the
:14:07. > :14:10.appropriate checks... And you say there is no transparency but
:14:11. > :14:13.actually The Home Office is very transparent. I don't know if you
:14:14. > :14:17.have bothered to read it but I have. There is clear outlining of how
:14:18. > :14:20.people assess the age of the children in question. There is the
:14:21. > :14:24.Merton test when there is a dispute of the age. These people are experts
:14:25. > :14:28.in determining the age of children and they do know how. If you think
:14:29. > :14:37.there are lots of tests, I would love to see them working for a
:14:38. > :14:39.change. It is estimated in the last ten years that 5000 grown-ups
:14:40. > :14:42.pretending to be children got through our system. Although there
:14:43. > :14:47.are deportation systems in place, they are never actually used. I
:14:48. > :14:51.think 40,000 refugees, well, immigrants, last year were lined up
:14:52. > :14:56.for deportation but they don't get deported because the system is
:14:57. > :15:01.broken. We are not here this morning to talk about how many refugees we
:15:02. > :15:05.should take in. We are talking very specifically about these migrants
:15:06. > :15:10.pretending to be children in order to abuse the Dublin agreement. That
:15:11. > :15:12.is what you are talking about. I am talking about the fact that in this
:15:13. > :15:27.country we are demonising children. A lot of them are. Judge How do you
:15:28. > :15:31.think this issue has got to this point where we are asking if this is
:15:32. > :15:36.racist? That's a really important question. I will tell you how it
:15:37. > :15:40.happens. It is because here in London these lovely comfy people
:15:41. > :15:43.demonise what ordinary viewers, ordinary readers of newspapers,
:15:44. > :15:50.ordinary people have concerns about. The fact that people have concerns
:15:51. > :15:56.does not make them racist. It does not make them xenophobic. Just a
:15:57. > :16:00.minor thing, again, it was mentioned about dental checks. There's a
:16:01. > :16:10.reality here. There are 28 states in the EU. 24 of those states use some
:16:11. > :16:14.kind of medical test to verify the age of potential immigrants. So we
:16:15. > :16:18.are in a minority. I think Malta is one of the other ones. Most
:16:19. > :16:26.countries out there actually use these medical tests. And so should
:16:27. > :16:28.we, because the voice of ordinary people deserveses to be heard.
:16:29. > :16:31.You've been sending us your texts and tweets on this.
:16:32. > :16:32.Let's hear some of your reactions from Tommy.
:16:33. > :16:39.By far the majority of people are saying that identity checks should
:16:40. > :17:35.be in place, and how that doesn't make us racist.
:17:36. > :17:47.Ester, I don't think Miriam and I are against identifying the age of
:17:48. > :17:51.children. For all the reasons she said, it is in the children's
:17:52. > :17:57.interests. That's what Miriam and I are trying to protect. Don't
:17:58. > :18:03.demonise us as liberal. I don't know what your politics are, Miriam, and
:18:04. > :18:07.you don't know what mine ar. I was an independent candidate in Louthton
:18:08. > :18:13.South, very up successful. Nobody knew which side of the fence I was.
:18:14. > :18:17.I am pro child. If you have an unaccompanied child, whether or not
:18:18. > :18:22.they have links in this country, as the children who came over from the
:18:23. > :18:27.Holocaust did not have, I say welcome them. And they will repay
:18:28. > :18:34.us. How do I know? Because I'm a member of a Jewish community where
:18:35. > :18:38.so many of the outstanding and distinguished people owe everything
:18:39. > :18:46.to this country and have never forgotten it. Like Nikki Winterton
:18:47. > :18:50.himself. Let's remember James' valid point. We took those children in.
:18:51. > :18:56.They faced death in death camps. This is not the same. We didn't know
:18:57. > :19:00.that at the time. In Si, 815,000 people? Except France and Calais
:19:01. > :19:06.isn't Syria. There's a simple answer to this. Again, James touched on it.
:19:07. > :19:09.If you want to come here and you have a genuine case, how many of
:19:10. > :19:13.those children who've come all the way from the war zones, who have
:19:14. > :19:18.travelled through all of those countries in Europe, who've made
:19:19. > :19:25.that journey, somehow they've made it alone. That's another subject. If
:19:26. > :19:29.you ask a genuine candidate to come here, if we, if you would agree to a
:19:30. > :19:34.simple test to verify your age, would you agree? Any genuine
:19:35. > :19:41.immigrant is going to, who is entitled to come here, who has a
:19:42. > :19:45.genuine case, will say, me first. If they were deemed to be effective,
:19:46. > :19:49.yes of course. Those countries think it is effective. We are the
:19:50. > :19:55.minority. Along with Malta. Let her make her point. Two points. The
:19:56. > :20:00.reason many of them are in Calais, and I have done many reports from
:20:01. > :20:03.Calais and spoken to the children in question, they have family members
:20:04. > :20:06.in this country and want to be reunited with the people they know.
:20:07. > :20:11.If you have fled war thousands of miles away, you probably want to try
:20:12. > :20:14.and resettle somewhere where you have a connection. But the second
:20:15. > :20:21.point was about the Home Office checks. There are multiple checks,
:20:22. > :20:25.physiological, psychological, documentary, and the Merton test,
:20:26. > :20:28.experienced social workers looking at the child's educational
:20:29. > :20:34.background, their level of development. Children from war zones
:20:35. > :20:37.do not look your your children, because they've been through war.
:20:38. > :20:42.They don't look like children? No, because they've been through a lot.
:20:43. > :20:47.Your level of maturity and how you look is different. The debate in
:20:48. > :20:51.this country over refugees only shifted when a white child's body
:20:52. > :20:54.washed up on the shore. That's when the debate in this country changed.
:20:55. > :20:58.It is only when the children look like yours that you are prepared to
:20:59. > :21:01.make changes. We have to have compassion, surely. On that note,
:21:02. > :21:06.I'm going to stop that conversation for the moment. Thank you. I'm sure
:21:07. > :21:09.you've struck a chord with many people at home.
:21:10. > :21:11.Still to come on Sunday Morning Live:
:21:12. > :21:13.Muyiwa and Riversongz are here with some African music
:21:14. > :21:39.Unusually for the BBC we are going to take a quick commercial break.
:21:40. > :21:45.In the Army you get paid to develop new skills that will set you up for
:21:46. > :21:46.life... That's a flavour of one
:21:47. > :21:48.of the army's latest recruiting ads. But there's been criticism this week
:21:49. > :21:51.about 16 and 17-year-olds The public health charity Medact
:21:52. > :21:55.says that teenage army recruits are more vulnerable to trauma,
:21:56. > :21:59.alcohol abuse, self-harm, and death during an armed forces
:22:00. > :22:02.career when compared to adults. So should the army
:22:03. > :22:04.recruit 16-year-olds? Samanthi Flanagan has
:22:05. > :22:16.been sampling views. I'm in Liverpool, a city where youth
:22:17. > :22:21.unemployment levels are well above the national average. One employer
:22:22. > :22:25.is still recruiting across the UK is the early, but some people question
:22:26. > :22:29.the minimum recruitment age of 16. So, how young is too young to sign
:22:30. > :22:37.up? Tell me, do you know what age you can join up to the Army at? .
:22:38. > :22:43.It's usually 18. Is it 18? 18, is it? I thought it was 16. I think
:22:44. > :22:48.it's 2016. It is 16. Do you think that's a suitable age or is that too
:22:49. > :22:51.young? It is a bit too young. It is about maturity. You are not really
:22:52. > :22:57.man and you are going and doing manly things. No harm in it. It is a
:22:58. > :23:05.good thing. It teaches them how to behave. Having been an Army wife and
:23:06. > :23:09.seen young kids getting killed, getting maimed, no, for a mother and
:23:10. > :23:13.I think for any woman it is heartbreaking to see young kids
:23:14. > :23:18.going as basically what I call cannon fodder. What age are you
:23:19. > :23:23.guys? 15. 16. Do you think you are ready to make a decision like that?
:23:24. > :23:27.I wouldn't say I'm old enough to join the Army, because I'm not that
:23:28. > :23:32.responsibility. Taking on that big a responsibility it just wouldn't be
:23:33. > :23:37.right. I do think that perhaps some kind of national service, because I
:23:38. > :23:41.think young people need self discipline. Possibly some students
:23:42. > :23:46.will waste time going to university, it costs them a lot of money and
:23:47. > :23:51.they can't find work, so the Army is a good outlet for them and they get
:23:52. > :23:55.careers out of it. If your child wanted to join, what do you think? I
:23:56. > :24:01.wouldn't like them to. Possibly the safety. Will they come back? Do you
:24:02. > :24:05.think the age should be raised? Yes, I believe it should. At least 18.
:24:06. > :24:09.You're old enough at 18 to vote, so if you are old enough to help with
:24:10. > :24:14.the economy, you should be old enough to give your life. But 16 is
:24:15. > :24:19.too early. It does them good, it gets that aggravation out of them.
:24:20. > :24:22.Even at 16 you wouldn't be concerned No, not at all. I think better there
:24:23. > :24:24.than on the streets. Joining us for this discussion
:24:25. > :24:30.is Lieutenant Colonel Stuart Lane, a former Commanding Officer
:24:31. > :24:33.of the Army Foundation College, Rachel Taylor, who is
:24:34. > :24:36.the programme manager at Child Soldiers International,
:24:37. > :24:39.and down the line from our newsroom is Colonel Johnny Blair-Tidewell,
:24:40. > :24:41.a spokesperson for the You've worked in training
:24:42. > :24:51.recruits under 18. Do you agree with this report
:24:52. > :24:59.that they are more likely to suffer I would say from my experiences that
:25:00. > :25:04.that's not something I recognise. I think the reality is that the junior
:25:05. > :25:09.soldiers who come to the Army get more training. Than just about any
:25:10. > :25:13.other recruit that goes through the system. And that preparation is
:25:14. > :25:18.fundamental. Do they get more training because they are considered
:25:19. > :25:24.to be vulnerable? I think in part, yes. And also that the Army is
:25:25. > :25:30.absolutely obligated to getting soldiers to their units as close to
:25:31. > :25:34.18 as possible. Possible. Noting that none of them can deploy on
:25:35. > :25:37.operations until they are over 18. Rachel, you campaign against the
:25:38. > :25:45.recruitment of people under the age of 18. Your view on this report. We
:25:46. > :25:48.work closely with men act on this report, on Medact from this report.
:25:49. > :25:51.From statistics from the Ministry of Defence and health professionals and
:25:52. > :25:55.veterans and families we've spoken to is that it is the youngest and
:25:56. > :26:00.the most vulnerable recruits who suffer the worst consequences as a
:26:01. > :26:05.result of enlisting at that age. Precisely because coming into the
:26:06. > :26:10.Armed Forces young, coming into that very pressurised environment, a
:26:11. > :26:13.dangerous, physically dangerous environment, it affects them more
:26:14. > :26:18.because they don't have the same resources to fullback on. It is
:26:19. > :26:22.often presented by the MOD as this golden opportunity for young people
:26:23. > :26:26.to gain education and training they wouldn't get anywhere else. But the
:26:27. > :26:29.fact is the armed forces are exempt from legislation on educational
:26:30. > :26:33.standards. They are exempt from pretty much all of the child welfare
:26:34. > :26:40.legislation in this country, so the education you will get if you enlist
:26:41. > :26:44.at 16 is of a lower standard and a narrower bredth than in any other
:26:45. > :26:47.context in this country. A 16-year-old hairdressing trainee
:26:48. > :26:51.will get higher qualifications than they would get if they enlisted in
:26:52. > :27:02.the Army as an infantry soldier. Stuart? My experience is, we train
:27:03. > :27:05.two cohorts. One is over a year, and they're those predominantly going to
:27:06. > :27:09.the combat arms, and those going to technical for the six months. That's
:27:10. > :27:14.because the second round of training for those in technical field can be
:27:15. > :27:20.anywhere up to two years long. Those in the combat do a shorter length of
:27:21. > :27:27.training. So in the case of an infant eer, four months. Our date
:27:28. > :27:33.that showed that 74% of those joining the combat arms had a
:27:34. > :27:38.literacy and numeracy rate below that of an 11-year-old. -Old. 2% sat
:27:39. > :27:43.in the five-year bracket. They can't articulate themselves on paper. They
:27:44. > :27:50.draw sketches, so somewhere along the line they have been failed. Yet
:27:51. > :27:57.in 10 weeks of actual study time we get 100% to a City and Guilds level
:27:58. > :28:01.1 literacy and numeracy. That's a GCSE equivalent, sort of, of a G to
:28:02. > :28:06.D grade. You are talking about the level of education people get. But
:28:07. > :28:11.often when people ask about recruitment they are thinking about
:28:12. > :28:16.combat and the environment that children, or 1818s, are in. I have
:28:17. > :28:24.never forgotten ChildLine listening to a killed of 16 talking about his
:28:25. > :28:29.experiences in the Army. He had rung the helpline 08001111, he felt very
:28:30. > :28:32.lonely. And I think it is a bit absurd actually. I belong to a
:28:33. > :28:37.generation where there was national service but that was at 18. I do
:28:38. > :28:41.think that it would be sensible, would it not, to move the age of
:28:42. > :28:47.recruitment up top the age whenner considered old enough to sign a
:28:48. > :28:50.contract, because 18... You get phone calls on ChildLine from
:28:51. > :28:54.children bullied in school or their community. The trouble is when you
:28:55. > :29:00.are in the Army there is no escape. This was the concern the kid had,
:29:01. > :29:03.that the bullying, as it does with cyber bullying, but the bullying was
:29:04. > :29:09.all around him. But it's not really that I'm concerned about. We though
:29:10. > :29:13.that the emotional age of someone of 16, the neuroscience shows us that
:29:14. > :29:17.the wires aren't joined up in your head. So if you get an emotional
:29:18. > :29:21.impact of a very unhappy experience, if you are asked to make decisions
:29:22. > :29:26.which are beyond you, you are still a child. Let's find out what
:29:27. > :29:29.happens. Colonel Johnny Blair-Tidewell is a spokesman for
:29:30. > :29:34.the Ministry of Defence. You've been listening to this discussion. Your
:29:35. > :29:38.views, once you are in you can't escape, understand at that age you
:29:39. > :29:42.are not wired the same way you are perhaps a couple of years older and
:29:43. > :29:48.as well prepared to cope with the pressures of military life? Thank
:29:49. > :29:52.you, I would say three things. First of all recruiting from 16 to 18 A
:29:53. > :29:57.troop is necessary for the armed forces. It is legal and it is
:29:58. > :30:01.voluntary. If I turn to that specific question about people being
:30:02. > :30:06.perhaps able to make the right decision at that age, that's why
:30:07. > :30:11.parental consent is required throughout the recruiting process.
:30:12. > :30:14.It is not just the individual 17 or 16-year-old but The Guardian or
:30:15. > :30:20.parent. It is a joint decision they are making to start a career in the
:30:21. > :30:24.Armed Forces. Once a 16-year-old or 17-year-old joins the Armed Forces
:30:25. > :30:27.there are special provisions in place to enable them to determine
:30:28. > :30:31.their service. What we mean is that they are able to leave after a short
:30:32. > :30:36.period of notice if they find they just don't suit the environment they
:30:37. > :30:42.find themselves in. That's an absolute right. That's part of the
:30:43. > :30:47.protection, part of the reason why recruiting 16 to 18-year-olds is
:30:48. > :30:52.legal. James, your reaction? We seem to be living in an age where we like
:30:53. > :30:56.to pathologise childhood. We are always talking about think of the
:30:57. > :31:02.children. I think children are often a lot more resilient than we give
:31:03. > :31:09.them credit for. You have to think that there were 13-year-old
:31:10. > :31:12.midshipmen on the Victory at the Battle of Trafalgar, drummer boys
:31:13. > :31:16.kept the formations moving at the Battle of Waterloo. And I imagine
:31:17. > :31:20.they were petrified. I'm not suggesting we good back to that.
:31:21. > :31:25.Children were used as runners and stretcher bearers at the siege of
:31:26. > :31:29.Mafikeng. I'm not saying it is for everybody. I did CCF at school and
:31:30. > :31:35.found it boring but some children really enjoyed it. For a certain
:31:36. > :31:39.kind of 16-year-old, not all, the Army can become your family. We've
:31:40. > :31:45.heard that they are allowed to stop if they don't want to do it. I think
:31:46. > :31:49.statistics show that 16-year-olds stay in the Army longer than people
:31:50. > :31:56.who join when they are older. I don't think there is anything wrong
:31:57. > :32:00.with that. It is typical we are getting left-wing charities with to
:32:01. > :32:02.think of the children game and this excuse, think of the military, which
:32:03. > :32:14.is what people do. Some children can benefit from the
:32:15. > :32:18.structure, from the military, being focused on and not left behind.
:32:19. > :32:23.Children who slip through the gaps of normal education. Yes, that is
:32:24. > :32:32.the response we often get from spokespeople. It is very misleading.
:32:33. > :32:35.Well, they can drop out. They can drop out within certain restrictions
:32:36. > :32:39.and they have got to give a three-month notice period. Children
:32:40. > :32:42.cannot withdraw consent after they have enlisted. It doesn't mean you
:32:43. > :32:47.leave and go back to your normal life as if it was a job like any
:32:48. > :32:56.other. The ones that analyst at 16, one in three drop out within a year.
:32:57. > :32:59.-- the ones that join at 16. They are unemployed, no qualifications,
:33:00. > :33:04.at high risk of becoming long-term unemployed. The youngest veterans
:33:05. > :33:08.are most likely to be long-term unemployed. If you take two
:33:09. > :33:13.16-year-old boys with the same academic and social background, at
:33:14. > :33:18.school in Morpeth, and one of them are lists and the other doesn't, the
:33:19. > :33:22.one who listed is twice as likely to become long-term unemployed as the
:33:23. > :33:24.one that didn't, precisely because the education they are getting does
:33:25. > :33:32.not beat the standards they would get everywhere else. In the past,
:33:33. > :33:34.16-year-olds probably got an equivalent level of education and
:33:35. > :33:40.training as young people elsewhere but that is not the case any more.
:33:41. > :33:44.Since the education and skills act 2008, 16 to 20 rolls have got to be
:33:45. > :33:51.in education and get high high level of education. In terms of leaving, a
:33:52. > :33:58.soldier under training can leave at any point. Without giving three
:33:59. > :34:01.months notice? Yes, you have got to give three months. When I was
:34:02. > :34:06.commanding officer at Harrogate, any soldier could leave at any time.
:34:07. > :34:09.Why? Because this is our profession. We know we are called upon to do
:34:10. > :34:14.things that for many are distasteful. So we have got to deal
:34:15. > :34:21.with the reality of conflict. The last thing any of us wants to do as
:34:22. > :34:26.commanders is put people in a situation they can't handle.
:34:27. > :34:31.Selection, training, the support they get after they return from
:34:32. > :34:35.operations is fundamental. If a soldier is dissatisfied within the
:34:36. > :34:40.unit under training, it doesn't make sense to retain him or her. It
:34:41. > :34:43.doesn't. It has an effect on everyone else and it is not right
:34:44. > :34:50.for us. That is the whole point of training. Secondly when it comes to
:34:51. > :34:57.education, what the army offers is not just a qualification. It also
:34:58. > :35:01.offers life skills and we are building character. We are building
:35:02. > :35:06.adults that this country can be proud of. Let's see what the country
:35:07. > :35:08.and our viewers think about this. We have got some texts and tweets. On
:35:09. > :36:06.that last point: A variety of views. Lieutenant
:36:07. > :36:09.Colonel Johnny Blair-Tidewell, some of those comments saying they are
:36:10. > :36:14.not physically mature enough at the age of 16 and one person said child
:36:15. > :36:18.abuse. What is your reaction? If I can just go back to something that
:36:19. > :36:22.Rachel mentioned, which is the standard of education. Although the
:36:23. > :36:29.armed forces are exempt from the 2008 education act, they do comply
:36:30. > :36:31.with it. 16 to 18-year-olds do receive the required number of hours
:36:32. > :36:37.as they go through their training and that is a statement of fact. The
:36:38. > :36:41.second thing is it takes a long time for people to mature and I don't
:36:42. > :36:47.think 18 is necessarily a cut. It can in some cases take people
:36:48. > :36:52.longer. What the armed forces offer is a really intensive education,
:36:53. > :36:57.training opportunities and environment, which is actually there
:36:58. > :37:03.to care for them. We are not talking about a population as vulnerable as
:37:04. > :37:08.some of the speakers this morning have suggested. Thank you very much.
:37:09. > :37:12.We could have continued this for much longer, I am sure. And Rachel,
:37:13. > :37:16.we do acknowledge your reaction disagreeing with the Lieutenant
:37:17. > :37:24.Colonel. Thank you for your comments and keep them coming in. Donny
:37:25. > :37:38.Donny Osmond has been a performer for more than 50 years.
:37:39. > :37:41.He was singing on network television in America at the age of five.
:37:42. > :37:43.Since then he's sold 100 million records.
:37:44. > :37:45.He joined other members of his family to form The Osmonds,
:37:46. > :37:47.a group which became a phenomenal worldwide success.
:37:48. > :37:49.Nikki Bedi went to meet Donny to discover
:37:50. > :37:52.that there were bad times as well as moments of superstardom.
:37:53. > :38:00.When you toured the UK in the 1970s, you practically brought the country
:38:01. > :38:06.to a standstill, no exaggeration. What do you think it was about you
:38:07. > :38:11.that caused that hysteria? Can you pinpoint it? I would like to think
:38:12. > :38:14.there was some talent involved! I guess I was at the right place at
:38:15. > :38:23.the right time with the right look and the Wright brothers. With Puppy
:38:24. > :38:26.Love, Sweet And Innocent, I really hate that prepubescent teen and got
:38:27. > :38:38.that message. We worked hard at what we did. -- we really hit the
:38:39. > :38:39.pre-praise prepubescent teen. They just got the message at the right
:38:40. > :38:52.time. # Love me for a reason... You were
:38:53. > :38:58.in a rock and roll world. Where your beliefs and your faith ever tested?
:38:59. > :39:03.I was about 16 when I thought I was a hypocrite. I told everybody I was
:39:04. > :39:07.a Mormon and I didn't know what I believed, so I started studying. I
:39:08. > :39:12.really started figuring it out. That is when I got my testimony that this
:39:13. > :39:16.is exactly what I want to do in my life. It is going to ground me and
:39:17. > :39:23.give me a relief and respect for deity and a purpose in life. It has
:39:24. > :39:31.really helped me in my life. This excess of The Book Of Mormon,, if
:39:32. > :39:38.you don't take it too seriously it is quite funny. -- this success. I
:39:39. > :39:43.do agree that you shouldn't take yourself too seriously but I do take
:39:44. > :39:49.God seriously. # We would like to share with you
:39:50. > :39:54.this book of Jesus Christ. Do you know what the groups of Mormons did
:39:55. > :39:57.here? They were outside the theatre. There were huge adverts throughout
:39:58. > :40:03.the underground, saying with a moment and we are for you. Isn't it
:40:04. > :40:08.great that the Mormon church didn't shy away from that. They said you
:40:09. > :40:11.have seen the play, someone's interpretation, now read the book
:40:12. > :40:20.and get your own testimony of whether it is true or not.
:40:21. > :40:30.# And they called it puppy love. # I guess they will never know.
:40:31. > :40:36.Let's talk about Popular Of. You had an image and the world adored you.
:40:37. > :40:40.What about when it went away? That was when it got hard. I didn't do
:40:41. > :40:45.anything but everybody rejected me after loving me for so many years.
:40:46. > :40:50.It is just a natural thing that takes place. What you liked when you
:40:51. > :41:00.were 13 years old, when you become 17, 18, 19, that is for little kids.
:41:01. > :41:03.All teen idols go through this, excruciatingly painful emotionally.
:41:04. > :41:07.I would go into the studio and I would record demos. I would ask
:41:08. > :41:10.producers if they had anything for me to sing because I believed in my
:41:11. > :41:17.talent. Just give me something to sing. Eventually that is when Peter
:41:18. > :41:21.Gabriel came into my life and said, you have got a great voice. I have
:41:22. > :41:26.never bought your records! Even Peter said that. But you have got a
:41:27. > :41:32.good voice. What are you doing with your career? I told him I sob story.
:41:33. > :41:38.He said, know what? Let's go and experiment. He gave me the hit,
:41:39. > :41:45.Soldier Of Love. It took off and I never looked back.
:41:46. > :41:51.# It is the state of the heart when you are soldier of love. Your
:41:52. > :41:59.upcoming tour for the UK, January and February dates, you will be
:42:00. > :42:05.performing from the album Sound Check To My Life. This is my 60th
:42:06. > :42:10.album and not many people can say they have done 60. This is just for
:42:11. > :42:13.me. Really personal. I want to cover some songs that influenced my life
:42:14. > :42:24.had made me who I am today. # The long and winding road.
:42:25. > :42:32.# That leads to your door. What I would love for you to tell us is why
:42:33. > :42:39.you have put The Long And Winding Road on the album. I was in France
:42:40. > :42:44.in the 60s in a hotel and I opened the door and Paul McCartney was
:42:45. > :42:50.standing there with his daughter Mary, asking for an autograph. That
:42:51. > :42:55.is a terrible accent! Forgive me. I said yes and he hands a picture of
:42:56. > :43:01.me. He says put to Mary. There you go. Thank you very much. The door
:43:02. > :43:06.closes and fast forward 15 years and I am in London and Paul is in the
:43:07. > :43:12.adjacent studio. I thought I have got to verify this story. I walk in
:43:13. > :43:18.and I say, hi, how are you doing? I say, Paul, did it happen or did I
:43:19. > :43:21.dream about it? He said, not only did it happen, but you autograph is
:43:22. > :43:25.one of the very few autographs I have asked for in my entire life. As
:43:26. > :43:43.a child I believe you wanted to be the first person to sing on the
:43:44. > :43:46.moon. You know this story! When they landed on the moon in 68, 69, I
:43:47. > :43:49.remember watching on television. You know how little kids dream. I wanted
:43:50. > :43:52.to be one of the first thing is on the moon. I think Buzz Aldrin told
:43:53. > :43:59.me this story. They said one of the Apollo missions, they took a tape of
:44:00. > :44:15.Andy Williams singing Aquarius. # Are you Lonesome tonight?
:44:16. > :44:23.A television reporter became the news herself this week
:44:24. > :44:27.when she said that an open season for criticism of Muslims
:44:28. > :44:29.and minorities had effectively been declared by a decision
:44:30. > :44:36.Fatima Manji, along with 1,700 other people,
:44:37. > :44:39.complained to IPSO about an article by Sun columnist Kelvin MacKenzie
:44:40. > :44:42.after the terror attack in Nice in July which killed 86 people.
:44:43. > :44:44.He criticised Channel 4 News for using a presenter wearing
:44:45. > :44:57.Theresa May has promised Britain will redouble its efforts to defeat
:44:58. > :45:04.brutal terrorist murders, warning that a similar attack in the UK is
:45:05. > :45:08.highly likely. The press regulator said that although his views were
:45:09. > :45:12.offensive to some, he is entitled to express his views under free speech.
:45:13. > :45:27.Is the press entitled to be offensive?
:45:28. > :45:29.We're joined now by Joseph Harker, the deputy opinion editor
:45:30. > :45:31.at The Guardian, and rejoining us is Neil Wallis,
:45:32. > :45:34.the former deputy editor of the News of the World.
:45:35. > :45:36.Have IPSO, the press regulator, proved themselves to be weak
:45:37. > :45:38.by taking no action against Kelvin MacKenzie?
:45:39. > :45:42.I think the way you have phrased that is interesting. The way that
:45:43. > :45:47.IPSO have defended themselves is interesting. They are being thrown
:45:48. > :45:51.against the clarion calls of the Guardian and the BBC, taking away
:45:52. > :45:54.free speech but everyone else but keeping it for themselves. The truth
:45:55. > :45:59.is it is an important ruling because one of the freedoms of the press is
:46:00. > :46:04.the freedom to be offensive. I may say something, you may say something
:46:05. > :46:10.that I deem to be deeply offensive. But if you are not breaking the law,
:46:11. > :46:14.then you are allowed to say it. It was attributed to Voltaire and I
:46:15. > :46:18.don't think it was him, but the great phrase about I detest what you
:46:19. > :46:23.say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it, that holds
:46:24. > :46:28.true. It holds true particularly at this time, in the circumstances of
:46:29. > :46:32.this country. Kelvin MacKenzie could have said completely the opposite
:46:33. > :46:38.and he would have had complaints. People are allowed to have opinions.
:46:39. > :46:42.And a great part of the problem that we have in this country at the
:46:43. > :46:47.moment is the fact that you are not allowed to have an opinion unless it
:46:48. > :46:52.goes with that supposedly mainstream.
:46:53. > :46:58.Let's get the view from the Guardian, one of the institutions
:46:59. > :47:05.you mentioned were screeching. I'm not here on behalf of the Guardian.
:47:06. > :47:11.I'm free so say what I want. Good. You always here about free speech,
:47:12. > :47:15.but let's be real here. Free speech always have restrictions.
:47:16. > :47:19.Restrictions. There are laws on libel and on contempt of court which
:47:20. > :47:24.restrict what you can say. Free speech is not an absolute. Not only
:47:25. > :47:30.that but after the Leveson Inquiry the press set up the IPSO, IPSO, to
:47:31. > :47:36.oversee the press and it has an editorial code. And that editorial
:47:37. > :47:41.code imposes further restrictions on what the press can and can't say. So
:47:42. > :47:45.to claim it is all about free speech is ridiculous. The press have
:47:46. > :47:52.willingly signed up to regulation which is restrict what they can say.
:47:53. > :47:56.One of those regulations quite clearly prohibits comment which is
:47:57. > :48:03.prejudicial to people by virtue of their religion. Clearly what Kelvin
:48:04. > :48:07.MacKenzie said was prejudicial to Fatima Manji on behalf of her
:48:08. > :48:10.religion, because he said, if it appropriate that a Muslim woman
:48:11. > :48:16.should be covering the story of Nice? She was doing her job. He was
:48:17. > :48:22.asking the question and IPSO cleared him of any wrongdoing. Do you
:48:23. > :48:27.disagree with the ruling? I disagree with Kelvin MacKenzie. What is even
:48:28. > :48:35.worse is IPSO's ruling. It goes, it flies in the face of the editors o
:48:36. > :48:41.own code of practice and it there are institutionalises what Kelvin
:48:42. > :48:44.MacKenzie said and makes it OK. It basically enforces and says to the
:48:45. > :48:49.national press that bigotry is fine in the national press. This is rich
:48:50. > :48:56.coming from a newspaper... Let him finish. Can I point out that IPSO,
:48:57. > :48:59.if you go to its website it has 25 members of staff on the board, the
:49:00. > :49:03.complaints committee and senior staff. Only one of them is from
:49:04. > :49:10.anneth thing minority background. On the complaints committee not a
:49:11. > :49:13.single one is ethnic minority. I'm not saying white people are not
:49:14. > :49:17.entitle to judge on this but it shows you how out of touch this
:49:18. > :49:21.organisation it is and how insensitive it is on minority
:49:22. > :49:28.issues. Let's make this a discussion shall we? Esther, one of the points
:49:29. > :49:34.is IPSO is upholding bigotry. Well, if I was looking for an epitome of
:49:35. > :49:40.taste, sensitivity and empathy I wouldn't go to Kelvin MacKenzie and
:49:41. > :49:43.even if he hadn't called me appalling names in the past. Do you
:49:44. > :49:49.think he has a right to express a view? Yes, I do. Do I think he was
:49:50. > :49:54.being offensive? Yes, I do. Do I think that this has sparked off a
:49:55. > :49:58.very interesting debate? Yes, I do, because not all Muslims are
:49:59. > :50:04.terrorists. It is very important, I think, that a Muslim woman should
:50:05. > :50:07.sit there reporting objectively about an appalling terrorist event.
:50:08. > :50:13.I think it makes the point that I would like to see made more often
:50:14. > :50:16.and more loudly that terrorists are offending against Islam as much as
:50:17. > :50:22.they are offending against the rest of the world. So, I actually, on
:50:23. > :50:26.this occasion, the jury is out on this particular regulator. I'm not
:50:27. > :50:30.convinced that they are strong enough or objective enough, but on
:50:31. > :50:37.this particular ruling, I think that it has produced a fruitful debate.
:50:38. > :50:43.Myriam, the job of a columnist surely is to provoke ideas. This is
:50:44. > :50:46.what Kelvin MacKenzie that done and sparked discussion? Discussion?.
:50:47. > :50:50.Yes, but there's a context to everything we say in the public
:50:51. > :50:55.sphere and Kelvin MacKenzie is speaking in a context in which
:50:56. > :51:01.there's a huge spike in hate crimes against Muslims in this country.
:51:02. > :51:05.According to one of the regulators a 300% increase, over that figure, in
:51:06. > :51:11.London. The Met Police cuts a doubling of the number of hate
:51:12. > :51:14.crimes against Muslims. The incidents are manifold but, point
:51:15. > :51:18.that's important to draw out here is Fatima Manji is a journalist who
:51:19. > :51:24.happens to be a Muslim. To suggest that by virtue of being a Muslim she
:51:25. > :51:29.would have any sympathy with terrorists the is extremely
:51:30. > :51:34.problematic and also draws a line between any Muslim, anyone visibly
:51:35. > :51:38.identified as Muslim, as potentially sympathising with terrorists. If you
:51:39. > :51:42.suggest that somebody isn't appropriate to report on a terrorist
:51:43. > :51:44.attack because they are Muslim, what are you saying, that they
:51:45. > :51:48.potentially sympathise with the terrorists? I don't know what other
:51:49. > :51:56.implication we are supposed to draw out from this. And that's within a
:51:57. > :52:02.broader climate in which they are assumption of Muslims holding views
:52:03. > :52:07.on this. A third of the victims were Muslims. The first victim as was a
:52:08. > :52:12.Muslim in a headscarf, called Fatima. We are asking if the press
:52:13. > :52:16.has a right to be offensive. As a former deputy editor of News of the
:52:17. > :52:20.World give us an insight into what columnists are told to do. The idea
:52:21. > :52:24.is to get people thinking. I think we do need to come back to your
:52:25. > :52:29.point. This is a debate about press freedom. We've had two speeches here
:52:30. > :52:37.about the reporting of Muslim issues. This is an issue about free
:52:38. > :52:44.speech. Kelvin MacKenzie could just have easily be writing about the
:52:45. > :52:49.American elections. He could just as easily, trust me, be offensive on
:52:50. > :52:54.that or a number of issues. This is about whether or not freedom of
:52:55. > :53:02.speech, freedom of the press, includes the right to be fence itch,
:53:03. > :53:08.for instance, so, for instance, I found it incredibly offensive every
:53:09. > :53:14.time I have watched Channel 4 News interview Anjem Choudary and allowed
:53:15. > :53:19.him to spout his hate and his bile. I've been appalled, my friend over
:53:20. > :53:22.here is the deputy comment editor. I think you've allowed him your
:53:23. > :53:27.columns in your columns to spout his hate and bile. I don't think he's
:53:28. > :53:31.ever written for us. Well, in that case I apologise, but he's written
:53:32. > :53:39.for a variety of people. Do you know what? I hated the idea that your
:53:40. > :53:44.readers at home had his revolting views exposed to them. But you know
:53:45. > :53:52.what? That's freedom of speech. While you keep within the law. So
:53:53. > :53:58.what about Charlie Hebdo? That was offensive. Deeply, deeply offensive
:53:59. > :54:01.that I that cartoon newspaper to millions upon millions of Muslims.
:54:02. > :54:06.Not just about Muslims. They were offensive about everything. Did that
:54:07. > :54:12.justify them being massacred? There are a myriad examples of where
:54:13. > :54:15.people in Holland... I'm going to stop you listing examples because I
:54:16. > :54:21.want to get the views of our viewers. Freedom of speech. Freedom
:54:22. > :54:23.to offend. I want to come back to the editors' code.
:54:24. > :55:04.Tommy, tell us what our viewers are saying.
:55:05. > :55:18.Joseph, tell me was restrictions you are given at the Guardian when it
:55:19. > :55:22.comes to expressing an opinion. It was something that was clearly
:55:23. > :55:26.racist or extremist, we wouldn't run the piece. Or we would edit it so
:55:27. > :55:31.those extremists forms are taken out. We wouldn't publish Kelvin
:55:32. > :55:38.MacKenzie's article. Can I remind Neil of what the code says, the
:55:39. > :55:41.press must avoid pejorative reference to an individual's race or
:55:42. > :55:48.religion. You have read the piece? I have. I will quote it. He talked
:55:49. > :55:52.about the ordinary viewer, he looked at the hijab as slavery of women,
:55:53. > :55:56.with all the major terrorist outrages in the world currently
:55:57. > :55:59.being carried out by Muslims I think the rest of us are reasonably
:56:00. > :56:03.entitled to have concerns about what is beating in their religious
:56:04. > :56:09.hearts. In other words, he is saying that 1.5 billion Muslims around the
:56:10. > :56:14.world are under suspicion because of the outrages... This is an
:56:15. > :56:20.example... You are not hearing me. Joseph, no. We have a time issue
:56:21. > :56:22.here. Enough. I apologise for shutting down this discussion. But I
:56:23. > :56:24.have to. That's just about all
:56:25. > :56:28.from us for today. It's frustrating, I know, but time
:56:29. > :56:32.is against us. It's Black History Month,
:56:33. > :56:34.a celebration of black history, Here to mark it for us we have
:56:35. > :56:38.Muyiwa and Riversongz, singing in the Igbo
:56:39. > :56:40.language of Nigeria. Their song is titled Imela,
:56:41. > :56:58.which means "thank you". # I will sing of the Lord's
:56:59. > :57:04.great love forever more. # With my mouth I will shout
:57:05. > :57:13.for joy forever more. # I will sing of the Lord's
:57:14. > :57:34.great love forever more. # With my mouth I will shout
:57:35. > :57:44.for joy forever more. # I will sing of the Lord's
:57:45. > :57:51.great love forever more. # With my mouth I will shout
:57:52. > :58:01.for joy forever more. # Imela, Imela, Imela,
:58:02. > :58:29.you feel that stm Imela. # I will sing of the Lord's great
:58:30. > :58:36.love forever more. # With my mouth I will shout
:58:37. > :58:45.for joy forever more. # I will sing of the Lord's great
:58:46. > :58:51.love forever more. # With my mouth I will shout
:58:52. > :58:55.for joy forever more.