:00:00. > :00:00.Welcome to Sunday Morning Live, I'm Naga Munchetty.
:00:07. > :00:14.As their aircraft bomb Yemen, we ask should the UK stop selling
:00:15. > :00:21.We discuss the cake the bakers didn't want to bake because it
:00:22. > :00:25.There's six million CCTV cameras in Britain -
:00:26. > :00:32.are they all for our security or to snoop on us?
:00:33. > :00:34.And, Richard Coles, the popstar who became a vicar,
:00:35. > :00:43.tells Hardeep Singh Kohli how his fame didn't impress everyone.
:00:44. > :00:49.I went into a primary school to say hello to the children. A little boy
:00:50. > :00:54.came up to me and said, you are the new vicar, I said, yes, he said he
:00:55. > :00:59.was in that band, and I said, yes, and he said, that was my Nan's
:01:00. > :01:06.favourite band. -- you was. Our panel is here -
:01:07. > :01:09.and so is Tommy Sandhu who'll be You can contact us by
:01:10. > :01:18.Facebook and Twitter - don't forget to use
:01:19. > :01:23.the hashtag #bbcsml. Standard geographic
:01:24. > :01:29.charges from landlines Texts will be charged
:01:30. > :01:39.at your standard message rate. Email us at
:01:40. > :01:47.sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk. Nick Ferrari is a journalist
:01:48. > :01:53.and broadcaster. Peter Tatchell is a human
:01:54. > :01:56.rights campaigner. Michael Stephens is a research
:01:57. > :01:59.fellow for Middle East Studies at the Royal United Services Institute
:02:00. > :02:01.and Angela Epstein is Saudi Arabia is leading a coalition
:02:02. > :02:12.which is carrying out bombing raids on Yemen,
:02:13. > :02:14.one of the Arab world's The Campaign Against
:02:15. > :02:17.Arms Trade claims that, since bombing began in spring last
:02:18. > :02:20.year, the UK has sold more than ?3 billion worth
:02:21. > :02:22.of arms to Saudi Arabia. The UN says some ten thousand people
:02:23. > :02:25.have been killed in the civil war there and that half
:02:26. > :02:27.of the 28 million population Here, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn
:02:28. > :02:41.said this week that we should stop supplying the Saudis,
:02:42. > :02:43.pending further investigations. Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson
:02:44. > :02:44.responded that if Britain were to call a halt,
:02:45. > :02:47.other countries would "happily supply arms' without the close
:02:48. > :02:49.monitoring the UK applies". So - should the UK sell
:02:50. > :02:51.arms to Saudi Arabia? 18 months of civil war in Yemen,
:02:52. > :02:57.thousands of deaths, countless casualties and half
:02:58. > :02:59.a nation short of food - should the UK be selling
:03:00. > :03:14.arms to Saudi Arabia? The first thing to note is that
:03:15. > :03:19.actually the aircraft the Saudis are using at the moment a bomb Yemen all
:03:20. > :03:23.American supplied. The typhoons we have sold them over the last 15
:03:24. > :03:26.years have been seen as unfit for the types of missions that need to
:03:27. > :03:35.fly. The amount of impact we have had in terms of targeting civilian
:03:36. > :03:38.infrastructure, air strikes that the Saudis have been rightly criticised
:03:39. > :03:48.for, is not mostly with our equipment. ?3 billion worth of
:03:49. > :03:54.equipment. They have been firing missiles into their territory. You
:03:55. > :03:58.can say it is ridiculous, but I talk to the Saudis, they are not using
:03:59. > :04:06.typhoons, it is the American-made equipment. Does the war need to come
:04:07. > :04:10.to an end? Yes, it does. Saudis are being criticised for it. We don't
:04:11. > :04:13.want to be part of that but we need to have a conversation with the
:04:14. > :04:16.Saudis about how to bring this to an end and how to do this in a way that
:04:17. > :04:23.reassures them because they feel very insecure. What would it mean if
:04:24. > :04:27.we suspended this? Apart from the immediate fallout from a civil war
:04:28. > :04:35.there, we have to look at how Saudi Arabia, in the land of the blind one
:04:36. > :04:39.eyed man is king, it is unstable there, in broad and general terms,
:04:40. > :04:42.but Saudi Arabia seems to be the only nation state which has made
:04:43. > :04:47.some sort of stand about taking initiative about terrorism and
:04:48. > :04:52.having a counterterrorism project. In terms of Britain, we need to have
:04:53. > :04:56.some sort of allegiance there. Any kind of war situation there are
:04:57. > :04:59.casualties. It is more than regrettable, it is heartbreaking.
:05:00. > :05:04.But we have to believe, I'm not an expert, but I have to believe that
:05:05. > :05:11.as a British citizen, when our PM and Foreign Secretary secretary say
:05:12. > :05:17.that we are applying rigorous criteria to make sure it is
:05:18. > :05:21.compliant with human rights, and they make sure countries we sell
:05:22. > :05:25.arms to do not violate any humanitarian criteria, we have to
:05:26. > :05:33.believe that. Putting aside your political views. The government says
:05:34. > :05:37.Saudi Arabia's internal enquiries into their bombing campaign are
:05:38. > :05:41.slow. I went to see a therapist last week because I found myself with
:05:42. > :05:44.Jeremy Corbyn against Boris Johnson. I have a piece of paper saying I'm
:05:45. > :05:50.not mad. Essentially, there are two magazines. First, the incredible
:05:51. > :05:54.bravery of the editor of The Times this week who put a picture on the
:05:55. > :05:59.front page of that young women. I wonder if she is still alive. She is
:06:00. > :06:03.18. Other media have not run it. Credit to the BBC for running it. As
:06:04. > :06:05.a former deputy editor, it is your shop window. You don't normally put
:06:06. > :06:10.things on front pages that will shock people. It shocked me. I did
:06:11. > :06:15.it on the radio show. Lots of people got involved. This is a woman who
:06:16. > :06:21.was emaciated in hospital bed. 18 years old. Clinging to life.
:06:22. > :06:24.Effectively, an image from a holocaust, but she has a dark skin.
:06:25. > :06:28.That is your view is a sense of what it is. It is brutal. Inside the
:06:29. > :06:34.paper, there were more hideous pictures. Your argument, Michael, is
:06:35. > :06:39.effectively saying, we sell than the guns but we don't sell them the
:06:40. > :06:43.bullets. It does not work. You are too young, but some of your viewers
:06:44. > :06:49.will remember Biafra. Most of your viewers will remember live aid. I
:06:50. > :06:52.cannot, for the life of me, work out why there was not the same ground
:06:53. > :06:57.swell of this sort of suffering. Your response? Since the 1920s when
:06:58. > :07:02.the Saudis first invaded Yemen there has not been a decade in which it
:07:03. > :07:05.has not seen some type of war. Since 1994 when the country was brought
:07:06. > :07:09.back together it has been a war every single year. The Saudis have
:07:10. > :07:13.made a disastrous calculation in terms of alienating the former
:07:14. > :07:18.president. He is in control of what is happening now. They have printed
:07:19. > :07:21.this out as this kind of war against Iran. But they need to be dealing
:07:22. > :07:26.with a failed political process from 2011. You are right. There was a
:07:27. > :07:30.humanitarian catastrophe. There has been one for the last 20 years. It
:07:31. > :07:34.is something the Saudis need to do more. We can help in that
:07:35. > :07:37.conversation. Our continued pressure, and we need to do that
:07:38. > :07:39.with an ally and say, come on, you need to be thinking about these
:07:40. > :07:44.issues and not just talking about the Iranians. Many people have
:07:45. > :07:48.mentioned Britain's apparent hypocrisy where Britain is vocal
:07:49. > :07:50.about what is happening with Russia with its relationship with Syria,
:07:51. > :07:56.that Yemen is almost a forgotten crisis. Absolutely. The war crimes
:07:57. > :08:01.that have been committed are comparable. We must remember that
:08:02. > :08:05.Philip Hammond, when he was Foreign Secretary, admitted that Britain is
:08:06. > :08:09.actively aiding the Saudis in Yemen. We are actively helping them pursue
:08:10. > :08:15.their industry minute bombing of schools, hospitals, markets, and so
:08:16. > :08:22.on. That is abetting a war crime which is illegal under international
:08:23. > :08:30.human rights law, so we must stop supplying those arms. --
:08:31. > :08:36.indiscriminate bombing. I hope more people will sign the petition to
:08:37. > :08:39.stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia. The vast British public don't want
:08:40. > :08:45.our country to be associated with criminal acts by the Saudis or
:08:46. > :08:55.anybody else. Do you think there is amoral interest here? -- a moral
:08:56. > :08:58.interest you? You are wise. You will know Boris Johnson is right, if we
:08:59. > :09:05.stop selling them, somebody else will pick up the flak. That's the
:09:06. > :09:09.problem. Some people watching this show right now, their jobs depend on
:09:10. > :09:14.it. We can say, we will take the pain. We are not going to take any
:09:15. > :09:18.part in watching any more of those images. I think you said half the
:09:19. > :09:24.nation is starving, or on the verge of hunger, and we are doing nothing.
:09:25. > :09:31.We are aiding and abetting in a way. But you are right, somebody else
:09:32. > :09:34.will sell the stuff if we don't. But you are saying, we are committing a
:09:35. > :09:41.crime because somebody else would. Yeah. These are crimes under
:09:42. > :09:45.international law. I agree. We should have no part of it, even if
:09:46. > :09:51.others do, because it destroys our credibility. How, condemn aside and
:09:52. > :09:57.Russia if we are doing a similar scale attack on civilians in Yemen?
:09:58. > :10:08.-- how can we condemn Assad and Russia. It is the counter. -- a
:10:09. > :10:12.national newspaper can put a highly inflammatory, setting aside the
:10:13. > :10:15.emotional response to that, and inflammatory photograph. It is like
:10:16. > :10:20.a terrible photograph of the baby who died being pulled out of the
:10:21. > :10:26.sea. One of the Syrian refugees. Is it inflammatory, or is it true? We
:10:27. > :10:32.never no context, do we? We see the picture, we don't see the mosaic. I
:10:33. > :10:34.am not suggesting there was not devastation, starvation, and an
:10:35. > :10:42.abyss of human suffering happening in Yemen. People should be inflamed.
:10:43. > :10:45.Absolutely. I understand. These children are dying in their beds. I
:10:46. > :10:52.understand when you talk about the Holocaust imagery. As a Jewish girl,
:10:53. > :10:55.you know, they made the German troops parade after these camps were
:10:56. > :10:58.liberated for people to see what a government had proactively initiated
:10:59. > :11:04.in order to annihilate a whole people. This is warfare. There is no
:11:05. > :11:09.such thing as competitive suffering. One drop of blood is not any less
:11:10. > :11:13.painful than somebody else's. To bring it back to the politics. We
:11:14. > :11:20.have to have phrase-macro and belief in our political leaders. People may
:11:21. > :11:27.sneer at that. -- we have to have faith. After Iraq? I made a cheap
:11:28. > :11:31.jibe at Jeremy Corbyn. But if our government holds itself up as a
:11:32. > :11:34.government that deploys rigorous criteria to ensure there is
:11:35. > :11:42.compliance with what is defined as a war crime, what is defined as going
:11:43. > :11:46.against a humanitarian situation. It is easy to have a knee jerk response
:11:47. > :11:52.and say we take moral high ground. As soon as we see one of these but
:11:53. > :11:58.lynching photographs. I'm just a layperson, I'm not an expert in
:11:59. > :12:01.Middle Eastern studies. -- got wrenching photographs. I have to
:12:02. > :12:07.believe that the government will do what they say. How much influence is
:12:08. > :12:12.the government exerting, is it enough to push this water a proper
:12:13. > :12:21.finish, rather than the suffering we are seeing now? -- push this war to
:12:22. > :12:27.a proper finish. There have been a lot of frank discussions with the
:12:28. > :12:30.Saudis. The initial discussion from those in the analytical community
:12:31. > :12:35.came when Isis exploded onto the scene in 2014. The Saudis were so
:12:36. > :12:39.distracted with Iran we were saying to them, come on, this is the major
:12:40. > :12:43.problem, can you move your aircraft into Syria to help us? And they said
:12:44. > :12:49.their biggest problem was Yemen. A big fault line open. We had to have
:12:50. > :12:54.serious conversations... I am talking about influence. But his
:12:55. > :13:00.influence. You have to get them into the room to talk to them... Do they
:13:01. > :13:05.listen? That is it, do they listen? One thing I want to stress is that
:13:06. > :13:09.war is coming in Yemen. Everybody following Yemen could see it was
:13:10. > :13:12.happening. The war was going to come to pass the cost of fracture risk,
:13:13. > :13:16.domestic politics. When the Saudis got involved there was an
:13:17. > :13:25.expectation from their side that their Western allies would be with
:13:26. > :13:29.them. -- because of the fracture -- fracture
:13:30. > :13:36.it has always been difficult for us to influence them. The bottom line
:13:37. > :13:50.is, Saudi Arabia is an autocratic regime. It has suppressed peace
:13:51. > :13:58.processes. We have to decide which side we are on. I'm not on the side
:13:59. > :14:01.of the Saudis. Cutting all military aid to the collusion with war crime.
:14:02. > :14:03.There is more than one argument and more than one opinion. I want to
:14:04. > :14:06.know what our viewers think. You've been sending us your texts
:14:07. > :14:08.and tweets on this. Let's hear some of your
:14:09. > :14:14.reactions from Tommy. Lots of people saying they are
:14:15. > :14:17.against us selling arms to Saudi Arabia, saying it is fuelling a
:14:18. > :14:23.humanitarian crisis and accusing the government of putting greed before
:14:24. > :14:35.morality. This, it echoes Peter -- this comment echoes Peter's.
:14:36. > :14:48.Peter is agreeing with what Nick is saying.
:14:49. > :15:19.Poignant messages. What is your reaction to that, Angela? It comes
:15:20. > :15:24.back to my earlier point. I have the greatest respect for everybody's
:15:25. > :15:27.opinion on this. But the moral high ground and the response to, as I
:15:28. > :15:33.say, inflammatory or terrible images, sometimes smoke screen is
:15:34. > :15:39.what is happening there. Add in terms of how a situation can be
:15:40. > :15:45.resolved. Will we have blood on our hands? There are a rebel forces
:15:46. > :15:50.fighting. If we withdraw somebody else will fill the pockets of the
:15:51. > :15:53.Saudis and provide the arms needed. That war will continue anyway. If
:15:54. > :15:57.there is some chance the British government can provide weaponry in a
:15:58. > :16:02.way that can somehow be regimented, and can somehow be assessed in a
:16:03. > :16:07.sense that will offer some kind of break... I mean it is easy to shake
:16:08. > :16:12.your head and say no. But what else is one supposed to do? You have to
:16:13. > :16:18.have some belief in the government in terms of doing what it says. You
:16:19. > :16:20.have a wonderful, naive faith in government when you note that recent
:16:21. > :16:23.governments on so many issues ranging from the Iraq war. I take
:16:24. > :16:36.that You are naive, given the fact that
:16:37. > :16:38.on Iraq and Heathrow in recent years, we have seen politicians tell
:16:39. > :16:41.us one thing and do something different, I do not see where you
:16:42. > :16:45.have such incredible faith in government. We know what is
:16:46. > :16:49.happening in Yemen. Conversations are happening and I have sat in some
:16:50. > :16:52.of them and there is a lot of frustration with the war in Yemen
:16:53. > :16:57.and relationship with Saudi Arabia. The point is when we first signed
:16:58. > :17:10.these big arms deals in the 1980s and 1990s, Saudi Arabia was not
:17:11. > :17:12.feeling insecure because Iran was so powerful and going into Bahrain,
:17:13. > :17:15.which I believed in and Yemen, we had six wars. We have to think about
:17:16. > :17:18.how to manage that relationship. Everybody's talking and children are
:17:19. > :17:23.starving to death, a nation, half of them, on famine. Is this blue -- is
:17:24. > :17:28.this too profitable and governments have to accept having blood on their
:17:29. > :17:31.hands because that is the nature of international relations? David said
:17:32. > :17:36.we have to stop selling weapons, that is ridiculous, it earns this
:17:37. > :17:40.country a lot of money in tax and pays a lot of salaries and they are
:17:41. > :17:44.legitimate, we cannot stop them all. We cannot pretend to be a high
:17:45. > :17:48.priest of moral authority if we continue to be seen with our hands
:17:49. > :17:52.involved in this. So in other words there has to be
:17:53. > :17:57.some kind of criteria or barometer by which you measure who you sell to
:17:58. > :18:01.and who you do not. Hang on a second stop ' you license who you sell your
:18:02. > :18:07.knives too. Of course you do, you are arguing against the point. May
:18:08. > :18:13.I? You are saying, with the greatest of respect, we cannot unilaterally
:18:14. > :18:17.dissolve the arms industry. You can sell to some people. All animals are
:18:18. > :18:22.equal but some more equal than others. So you are saying there has
:18:23. > :18:26.to be a criteria in order to decide who you sell arms to. I am saying
:18:27. > :18:31.these criteria allegedly exist although Peter says I am naive for
:18:32. > :18:36.believing that. Final response, time is pushing gone. Final response, I
:18:37. > :18:40.go back to, I see what Peter says about the politicians. I would refer
:18:41. > :18:44.everyone to be images carried on the BBC and in the Times last week that
:18:45. > :18:49.I should be driving the discussion. As they talk, more children will
:18:50. > :18:53.have died. The point we go away with is this is an emotive discussion and
:18:54. > :18:54.people had been affected, thank you very much. And keep your comments
:18:55. > :18:57.coming in, keep involved. Still to come on
:18:58. > :18:59.Sunday Morning Live: Celebrating Diwali,
:19:00. > :19:00.the Hindu Festival Not many country vicars can boast
:19:01. > :19:11.of being a chart topping popstar. In fact, only one can -
:19:12. > :19:20.the Reverend Richard Coles. He was part of the group
:19:21. > :19:22.the Communards with Jimmy They split up, and Richard's life
:19:23. > :19:26.subsequently took a very different direction and he became a man
:19:27. > :19:28.of the cloth. He was the inspiration for the BBC
:19:29. > :19:31.television series 'Rev' and co-presents Radio
:19:32. > :19:32.4's 'Saturday Live'. For Sunday Morning Live,
:19:33. > :19:43.Hardeep Singh Kohli # Baby! My heart is full of love and
:19:44. > :19:50.desire for you... # So come down and do what you've
:19:51. > :19:57.got to do... You are the only figure in the written to have a number one
:19:58. > :20:01.pop hit, what makes you happier, being in the pulpit or Top of the
:20:02. > :20:05.Pops? When I came here five or six years ago, I went into a primary
:20:06. > :20:09.school my first day to say hello to the children and a little boy went,
:20:10. > :20:16.you are the new vicar! I said, yes. He said, you was in that band. I
:20:17. > :20:19.said, yes. He said, that was my grandma's favourite band! It was so
:20:20. > :20:26.long ago that I forget it was me somehow. I remember hearing your
:20:27. > :20:30.younger brother referring to you as being uncomfortable in your skin
:20:31. > :20:34.early in life. What were your identity crises and issues? I think
:20:35. > :20:41.realising he was gay is always a big deal, especially then because it was
:20:42. > :20:46.such a less tolerant and inclusive world -- I was gay. Just being a
:20:47. > :20:48.teenager and adolescent. A surge of hormones and the horrors of puberty
:20:49. > :21:03.were tough. How did the success of the
:21:04. > :21:06.Communards change you? You know that thing where people win the Lottery
:21:07. > :21:11.and they go on the news and they say, will it change you? They say,
:21:12. > :21:17.no, and they get a helicopter! It was a huge life changer. It took me
:21:18. > :21:20.immediately away from the circumstances I was in and it
:21:21. > :21:24.contributed to that great cultural change that happens in the 1980s.
:21:25. > :21:32.Especially around things like sexuality and gender. That was very
:21:33. > :21:45.exciting to be part of that. # Never can say goodbye... Talk me
:21:46. > :21:49.through the Communards ceasing to be and your road to Damascus. When it
:21:50. > :21:56.got to be under my 20s, I crashed and burned in the way you expect pop
:21:57. > :22:01.stars to do. And I sensed there were questions I wished to ask or the
:22:02. > :22:07.form. And the resources I had to hand were insufficient for that. I
:22:08. > :22:11.would happily live in this materialist world until then. I grew
:22:12. > :22:16.up in a Church as a chorister, but I never believed in it at all, I was a
:22:17. > :22:22.confirmed atheist from eight, nine. But I liked the feel of it, I liked
:22:23. > :22:25.being in churches and chapels and cathedrals, I sensed they were
:22:26. > :22:29.places of rich reflection. Was it a moment or was it gradual? There was
:22:30. > :22:41.a moment I went to Church for the first time and I was sitting in a
:22:42. > :22:43.pew and at the altar, these mysterious guys dressed in this
:22:44. > :22:46.stuff were doing things with bits of bread and wine and there was incense
:22:47. > :22:49.and music. And they rang a bell and something was stirred... It was not
:22:50. > :22:56.a stir, it was a break. And I just lost it, actually. I recognise what
:22:57. > :23:01.was happening. It was the answer to my question and the fulfilment of my
:23:02. > :23:08.hope. It was there, I was just hungry, I was famished. And he was
:23:09. > :23:14.food. In your book, you talk a lot about the order and the shape of the
:23:15. > :23:18.Church calendar, what is it about the order that you like and you
:23:19. > :23:22.value? We are no longer orient it the place and time as we once were
:23:23. > :23:26.and one thing I love about the Church as it has a keen sense of
:23:27. > :23:30.that. Christmas and Easter, most people are aware of in some way or
:23:31. > :23:35.another and that does punctuate the year. But for the Church, we have
:23:36. > :23:40.other things. Corpus Christi, Michaelmas. These things people do
:23:41. > :23:48.not remember or recognise. Harvest festival in the village where we
:23:49. > :23:52.used to live, the first farmer would break the harvest loaf and we would
:23:53. > :23:56.have a harvest supper in that traditional way. In this Church, our
:23:57. > :24:00.harvest festival is a collection of nonperishable is for the food bank.
:24:01. > :24:07.But I like that sense of being rooted in the passing of the
:24:08. > :24:12.seasons. You were one of the consultants on
:24:13. > :24:16.that hit BBC sitcom Rev. Do you think it was important to show as
:24:17. > :24:23.the programme did the warts and all side of being a priest? Yes, if
:24:24. > :24:25.clergy appear on television, it is a sitcom caricature. That is fine and
:24:26. > :24:30.very funny but it does not begin to approach the reality of our
:24:31. > :24:34.existence, which is one of grain and texture and light and shade and
:24:35. > :24:38.success and failure. Tom Hollander who played the main character Adam
:24:39. > :24:43.took time to watch me doing stuff, the sort of pick-up the kind of
:24:44. > :24:47.authentic stuff that we do. What was interesting about that for me was
:24:48. > :24:52.that it wasn't just the stuff I showed him, it was the stuff I
:24:53. > :24:56.didn't realise I showed him that was interesting. Particularly scrounging
:24:57. > :25:00.cigarettes from the homeless round the back of Church which is a habit
:25:01. > :25:04.of mine. I hadn't noticed that until Tom reflected on it.
:25:05. > :25:11.You have never seen God but you believe in him. I see God every day,
:25:12. > :25:18.everywhere, I see God in these butterflies, I see God in that crisp
:25:19. > :25:24.packet. You see God in that )? OK, maybe not ). You are a former pop
:25:25. > :25:28.star, we are in a Church. In the words of Tiffany, I think we are all
:25:29. > :25:33.over now. I would like to finish this interview singing with you a
:25:34. > :25:40.song by the Communards. That is fine by me. If you read, I will follow.
:25:41. > :25:48.# Don't really this way. # I can't survive.
:25:49. > :25:54.# I can't stay alive. He has still got it, Reverend Richard Coles.
:25:55. > :25:56.The Rev Richard Coles talking to Hardeep.
:25:57. > :25:59.Now, there was a big fuss about baking a cake this
:26:00. > :26:01.week, and it had nothing to do with the final
:26:02. > :26:07.On Monday, the Christian owners of a bakery in Northern Ireland lost
:26:08. > :26:09.an appeal against a ruling that their refusal to make
:26:10. > :26:15.a cake bearing the slogan 'Support Gay Marriage'
:26:16. > :26:18.I am relieved and very grateful to the Court of Appeal for the
:26:19. > :26:19.judgment. Gay marriage is illegal
:26:20. > :26:21.in Northern Ireland, but the bakers, the McArthurs -
:26:22. > :26:24.at Ashers in Belfast - refused to provide the cake
:26:25. > :26:26.because they believed the slogan contradicted their
:26:27. > :26:34.religious beliefs. We have served Mr Lee before and we
:26:35. > :26:38.would be happy to serve him again. The judges accepted that we did not
:26:39. > :26:45.know Mr Lee was gay and he was not the reason we declined the order.
:26:46. > :26:48.So are the McArthurs stirring things up, or do they have a point that
:26:49. > :26:50.businesses shouldn't be forced to propagate messages
:26:51. > :26:53.Do religious beliefs have a place in business?
:26:54. > :26:55.Joining us for this discussion is the academic and author
:26:56. > :26:57.Playwright and novelist Bonnie Greer.
:26:58. > :26:59.Legal commentator and journalist Joshua Rozenberg.
:27:00. > :27:01.And down the line from Belfast is John O'Doherty, Director
:27:02. > :27:12.To go back to the start of this case in May 2014,
:27:13. > :27:14.was it the 'Christian thing to do' for the McArthurs to refuse
:27:15. > :27:21.to bake the cake saying Support Gay Marriage?
:27:22. > :27:34.Thing is that the McArthurs believe it was, it was. I would say that
:27:35. > :27:38.whatever you do, do it on the Lord. The Bible talks about if you are a
:27:39. > :27:43.slave, you'd be a slave to Christ, you serve your master as though you
:27:44. > :27:46.are serving Christ. So their bread-making outfit, cake making
:27:47. > :27:51.outfit is worshipping God to them, it is a part of their walking in
:27:52. > :27:54.faith and truth and light. So living their faith in the world and in
:27:55. > :27:59.accordance with their conscience, they did not want to make a cake
:28:00. > :28:02.that had the slogan on it. That was a sin against their conscience, they
:28:03. > :28:07.believed, and they did not feel it was right to do that. Joshua, at
:28:08. > :28:11.your opinion on the court's break to uphold the initial ruling? I think
:28:12. > :28:13.the court was right, we all support religious freedom and freedom to
:28:14. > :28:35.practise our religion. We all support equal treatment for
:28:36. > :28:38.minorities. In this particular case, the two writes clashed and you have
:28:39. > :28:41.to say, how far do you go? The human rights convention Article nine is
:28:42. > :28:43.very clear. Everybody has the right to freedom of thought, conscience
:28:44. > :28:45.and religion, but freedom to manifesto religion has to be subject
:28:46. > :28:48.to the rights of others. In this case Gareth Lee, he wanted that
:28:49. > :28:50.cake. Ashers said they would make a bespoke and custom-made cake for
:28:51. > :28:53.anybody, give us a slogan and we print it. The problem was on this
:28:54. > :28:55.occasion, they were not prepared to serve their customer and they were
:28:56. > :29:00.found to be discriminating against Gareth Lee on the grounds of his
:29:01. > :29:04.sexual orientation. I know you followed this case carefully, Peter,
:29:05. > :29:09.and your opinion has changed. Take me through that. I initially
:29:10. > :29:12.supported the judgment against Ashers for the reasons Joshua
:29:13. > :29:16.outlined. They advertise that they would make a cake with any image or
:29:17. > :29:22.message that the customer chose. And when macro came along and he asked
:29:23. > :29:27.for the message Support Gay Marriage, they refused. That was a
:29:28. > :29:32.breach of contract. But on balance, I think quite clearly, it would have
:29:33. > :29:38.been wrong for Ashers to refuse to serve Gareth Lee because he was gay.
:29:39. > :29:42.But they didn't do that. They refused to provide the message he
:29:43. > :29:48.wanted. Support Gay Marriage. They were discriminating an idea, not a
:29:49. > :29:53.person, that is a very important distinction. The invocation of this
:29:54. > :29:57.judgment is that a gay baker could be forced under legal sanctions to
:29:58. > :30:02.decorate a cake with the message, oppose gay marriage. Or stop gay
:30:03. > :30:05.rights. And you could imagine a Muslim extremist might go to a
:30:06. > :30:11.Christian baker and say, I want this cake decorated with the message
:30:12. > :30:16.Christians are infidels. Or, there is no god but Allah. And Christians
:30:17. > :30:20.must repent and turn to Islam. In those scenarios, it would not be
:30:21. > :30:23.right to force the baker to print those messages. It is interesting
:30:24. > :30:28.how much religious belief should influence business.
:30:29. > :30:38.I respect them. I was raised Roman Catholic. Very much raised in a
:30:39. > :30:44.Christian tradition. But I value most secular society. Secularisation
:30:45. > :30:49.actually protect our freedom. Protects us from fighting one
:30:50. > :30:56.another. As far as the slogan is concerned, what was put on that cake
:30:57. > :31:03.was a slogan. And I think it was normal for the court to say this is
:31:04. > :31:07.a slogan and if you oppose it you go into discrimination. An ordinary
:31:08. > :31:13.person will see the slogan and see it as a slogan. These people decided
:31:14. > :31:20.it violated their beliefs. Then you have to question how far do we go in
:31:21. > :31:23.terms of a belief? If we are in a society with people with different
:31:24. > :31:28.beliefs, and they can range from anything, if they turn our civil
:31:29. > :31:31.society, in which we have a relationship and code with one
:31:32. > :31:37.another, then we have strayed into different waters. People forget that
:31:38. > :31:42.this country fought two civil wars about religion. We don't ever want
:31:43. > :31:47.to go back into territories again. The law protects us. It protects us
:31:48. > :31:50.from hate speech and protects us from people standing up and saying,
:31:51. > :31:53.I believe this and you can't do that. I think it is very important.
:31:54. > :31:55.I want to bring in John O'Doherty at this point,
:31:56. > :32:02.You have been listening to the opinions being expressed this
:32:03. > :32:08.morning. Gay marriage currently is not legal in Northern Ireland. Take
:32:09. > :32:11.the religious beliefs aside, isn't there a conflict, expecting a bakery
:32:12. > :32:19.to support something which is not legal? Two reported things. -- two
:32:20. > :32:29.the important things. The Bakers are now not required to make this cake.
:32:30. > :32:36.No business. They provided a service which was a free service in terms of
:32:37. > :32:43.their requirements, and no messages, no policies, had to follow a line in
:32:44. > :32:48.order to be printed. The decision to go ahead was discrimination. Four
:32:49. > :32:54.judges have agreed with that position. In terms of stating that
:32:55. > :32:58.printers are somehow promoting a message by printing it is a very
:32:59. > :33:03.difficult and dangerous position to take within the law. Most printers
:33:04. > :33:06.across the UK would disagree with that position. When it comes to the
:33:07. > :33:12.issue of equal marriage, there has been coverage in terms of the
:33:13. > :33:16.Ashers' judgment. Very little across the UK about the fact that our First
:33:17. > :33:20.Minister in Northern Ireland has stated that for the next five years
:33:21. > :33:26.she is going to veto equal marriage despite the majority of people in
:33:27. > :33:34.Northern Ireland supporting its introduction. Unfortunately I don't
:33:35. > :33:41.think the Ashers is the right judgment.
:33:42. > :33:49.What is your response? This is about the conscience of a particular
:33:50. > :33:53.family owning a particular business. It isn't about printers of the
:33:54. > :33:59.majority of them. This is concerning people for whom this caused them,
:34:00. > :34:04.would have caused them to sin against their conscience. You
:34:05. > :34:09.mentioned Civil War. The civil War was to do away with totalitarian
:34:10. > :34:13.notions of government. There is good quality, social justice and
:34:14. > :34:20.equality, there is bad equality. -- there is good equality. This moves
:34:21. > :34:23.towards quality tyranny. I have to thank god for a group like the
:34:24. > :34:29.Christian Institute who have defended the MacArthur family to the
:34:30. > :34:35.tune of ?200,000. Now they are going to be charged for about ?88,000 in
:34:36. > :34:39.costs. This is a massive David and Goliath thing going on. We lose this
:34:40. > :34:44.liberty at our peril. Peter understands that. His sitting here
:34:45. > :34:48.symbolically is far more important than any words I can after. We won't
:34:49. > :34:54.get into an argument about Civil War because that would be conjugated. If
:34:55. > :35:00.the Ashers had said I am a Christian bakery, then I don't think anybody
:35:01. > :35:06.would have gone in to disrupt them. People target specific people. I am
:35:07. > :35:11.talking about the law. If they had said this is a Christian bakery, or
:35:12. > :35:16.kosher bakery, halal bakery, I personally would not go in and by
:35:17. > :35:21.late their beliefs. The average person wouldn't. But if you go in,
:35:22. > :35:30.you say this is what I want to put on my cake, if you are giving a
:35:31. > :35:34.slogan that does not offend people, the average person would look at
:35:35. > :35:37.this and see this as the slogan. If you don't like the slogan, you have
:35:38. > :35:45.a problem with it, and the problem is discriminatory. One of the
:35:46. > :35:54.phrases Adrian used was equality tyranny. Are we now as a society
:35:55. > :35:59.going beyond religious beliefs in terms of equality? --
:36:00. > :36:13.no. The Ashers can get around this by not making custom-made cakes. It
:36:14. > :36:17.did appear that they would take any wording a customer wanted on their
:36:18. > :36:21.website. That isn't the issue. John in Belfast is right. Peter is over
:36:22. > :36:26.exaggerating the effect of this case. It does not mean you are
:36:27. > :36:30.forced to say something. It does not mean that you are required to put
:36:31. > :36:36.out any slogan. If the cake had been made it would not say Ashers on it,
:36:37. > :36:43.nobody would know they were doing it, there is no obligation for the
:36:44. > :36:46.Ashers to support gay rights. A baker, a printer, a publisher cannot
:36:47. > :36:53.be forced to publish anything that the customer would like. Freedom of
:36:54. > :37:00.expression cuts both ways. It is the freedom to express an idea and the
:37:01. > :37:04.freedom to not express an idea. John Docherty in Northern Ireland is
:37:05. > :37:08.absolutely right. There is no compulsion directly, but there is
:37:09. > :37:13.the threat of legal action, has taken against the Ashes against
:37:14. > :37:17.service providers who don't promote messages which they have been asked
:37:18. > :37:24.to promote and which they have a conscious objection against. -- John
:37:25. > :37:32.O'Doherty. I also want to pick up John O'Doherty's point, in Northern
:37:33. > :37:40.Ireland we have a serious issue with rights for the LGBTQ unity. This is
:37:41. > :37:47.a minor fight compared to what is actually going on in Northern
:37:48. > :37:51.Ireland. -- LGBTQ community. I choose on the side of freedom of
:37:52. > :38:00.expression and conscience. John, is this a minor fight? This is a fight
:38:01. > :38:05.of individuals. I have to challenge one of your previous contributors
:38:06. > :38:10.who stated that the Ashers were targeted. That was not the case.
:38:11. > :38:14.This man was a regular customer to this business and was giving them
:38:15. > :38:18.repeat custom. We need to be careful about the language we use in terms
:38:19. > :38:22.of this... To be clear, you are picking up on Bonnie's point, that
:38:23. > :38:26.is not quite what you said. You were talking about somebody going in and
:38:27. > :38:32.potentially being inflammatory. I did not say they were targeted. It
:38:33. > :38:36.is important to remember that the responsibility in terms of what a
:38:37. > :38:44.winning is and is not willing to do it lies within the business. The
:38:45. > :38:47.responsibility is on them to consider what they are and are not
:38:48. > :38:51.willing to do on the basis of their conscience. To find their business
:38:52. > :38:55.in terms of that, they did not present themselves as a Christian
:38:56. > :38:58.business, they did not present themselves as being unwilling to
:38:59. > :39:05.carry out particular orders, so on that basis it was deemed
:39:06. > :39:06.indiscriminate tree -- it was deemed discriminatory.
:39:07. > :39:09.You've been sending us your texts and tweets on this.
:39:10. > :39:17.Some people saying that religion has no place in business and any sort of
:39:18. > :39:20.discrimination should not be tolerated. On the other hand, people
:39:21. > :39:26.are saying business owners should be able to decide who they do business
:39:27. > :39:28.with. They refused to write a message, they didn't discriminate
:39:29. > :40:27.against anyone, Grace says. I hope you have impersonated Mark
:40:28. > :40:32.correctly. I was really getting into character.
:40:33. > :40:37.CHUCKLES This is different from the Christian
:40:38. > :40:45.bed and breakfast owners who refused to serve a gay couple. The Ashers
:40:46. > :40:47.didn't do that. To me, discrimination against people is
:40:48. > :40:55.always wrong, but discrimination against ideas is part of what it
:40:56. > :41:00.means to be in an open society. We are also in the arena of minorities.
:41:01. > :41:06.That is what the law's job is, to protect minorities, or minority
:41:07. > :41:09.opinion. Because the slogans within -- because the slogan is within that
:41:10. > :41:15.framework of law is correct by saying they chose this. This looked,
:41:16. > :41:28.to the average person, as if it was discovered a Tory. -- as if it was
:41:29. > :41:36.discriminatory. That is my point. It is not about the Ashers, it is about
:41:37. > :41:41.protecting minorities and protecting minorities to be able to have the
:41:42. > :41:45.same scope and experience as everybody else. John, I would like
:41:46. > :41:50.to hear your reaction to the comments from our viewers. This
:41:51. > :41:53.customer received less favourable treatment. The only example we can
:41:54. > :41:57.use in this case is if a customer went in and asked for a cake that
:41:58. > :42:04.said support traditional marriage. The Ashers would have baked that.
:42:05. > :42:08.Peter was saying that the objection was to the message. We have to
:42:09. > :42:12.understand that the impact was on the individual. That impact was
:42:13. > :42:16.experienced by the individual because of their political opinion
:42:17. > :42:27.and sexual orientation which led to direct discrimination against that
:42:28. > :42:28.individual. Thank you very much. If you are venturing out today, smile,
:42:29. > :42:31.you're on camera. Or at least, there's a fair chance
:42:32. > :42:34.you will be. There are at least six millions CCTV
:42:35. > :42:36.cameras in Britain - nearly one for every ten people -
:42:37. > :42:39.and more than 20,000 of London Police are being
:42:40. > :42:41.equipped with body cams. So are those lenses being used
:42:42. > :42:44.for your safety and security, or are they spies in the sky
:42:45. > :42:50.and part of a Big Brother society? The Surveillance Camera Commissioner
:42:51. > :42:53.- yes, there is one and we'll be talking to him shortly -
:42:54. > :42:55.is planning a new strategy He wants to ensure that CCTV cameras
:42:56. > :43:15.are being used responsibly. CCTV cameras are everywhere. Who
:43:16. > :43:20.needs James Bond to spy on us when we have loads? I have come to
:43:21. > :43:24.Cardiff, the home of Shirley Bassey, to find out if people around here
:43:25. > :43:27.agree with the UK's surveillance Commissioner, that we need to
:43:28. > :43:31.refocus our attitudes towards surveillance. Do we need so many of
:43:32. > :43:35.those, are they there for our safety, or are they just spying on
:43:36. > :43:41.us? Do we have too many cameras watching us right now? Absolutely. I
:43:42. > :43:48.really don't like it. Why are they there? I find it intrusive and
:43:49. > :43:52.unnecessary. Everybody goes on about this Big Brother culture. But
:43:53. > :43:56.basically, if you've not done anything wrong, you have nothing to
:43:57. > :43:59.worry about. I notice there for a reason, I just don't want people to
:44:00. > :44:04.be able to track me. 6 million cameras in the UK. At the end of the
:44:05. > :44:10.day they are used for security reasons. I think CCTV was initially
:44:11. > :44:14.put there for the right reason. You get a bit of trouble in Cardiff, as
:44:15. > :44:21.well. But I think it has gone over the top. If we can protect people
:44:22. > :44:25.through the use of cameras, then all the better. Would you like to see
:44:26. > :44:32.fewer? It controls people. It suppresses people. It is the same
:44:33. > :44:35.speed cameras. If there was nothing there it would create anarchy and
:44:36. > :44:40.chaos. If you feel somebody is watching you, be careful with
:44:41. > :44:44.everything you are going to do. There are many cameras here to help
:44:45. > :44:49.us. It is for our safety more than anything and people should not pay
:44:50. > :44:52.that much attention to it. These things are everywhere. Why not trust
:44:53. > :44:58.and encourage people to behave in a more moral way and I think our
:44:59. > :45:00.children are far too coerced into believing that this makes them safe.
:45:01. > :45:06.Because I don't think it does. Re-joining us on the sofa
:45:07. > :45:26.are journalists and broadcasters Tony Porter is the UK's Surveillance
:45:27. > :45:31.Camera Commissioner. THERE are 6 million CCTV cameras in Britain.
:45:32. > :45:36.Many would suggest that is perhaps 6 million too many.
:45:37. > :45:43.That is typical of the messages I receive. Surveillance in this
:45:44. > :45:48.country is a big industry, about ?2 million. One of the issues I have
:45:49. > :45:51.come across in my post is that despite the conflicting views on
:45:52. > :45:55.surveillance, the problem with surveillance is there too many
:45:56. > :45:59.cameras that are either useless or have been put in position and they
:46:00. > :46:04.are now no longer viable, or they are in fact the decrepit. And the
:46:05. > :46:08.argument the greatest decrepit cameras and those in the wrong
:46:09. > :46:13.position, it creates a society that people do not want to live in or the
:46:14. > :46:16.walking. The reason we have launched the strategy is to recognise the
:46:17. > :46:20.value of good surveillance, but also, to allow bad surveillance to
:46:21. > :46:24.wither on the vine. That is pretty much what this approach is doing.
:46:25. > :46:29.There is a large consultation approach I have just released on my
:46:30. > :46:33.website and I would love people listening to write in and to access
:46:34. > :46:39.that and give me their views. A ?2 billion industry. Bonnie, some
:46:40. > :46:45.people feel they are being watched. I saw you look up to our camera
:46:46. > :46:50.right now! I live in Central London, just near Oxford Circus. That is my
:46:51. > :46:53.neighbourhood. I figure I am photographed about 500 times a day.
:46:54. > :46:59.That is supposedly what it is, you go in and out of stores. I am sorry,
:47:00. > :47:02.but the ship has sailed. We have generations of people now who do not
:47:03. > :47:08.even know what the word privacy means, they do not even know how to
:47:09. > :47:15.spell it. They are OK with it. They even use it to their advantage. It
:47:16. > :47:19.is over. It is done. So I agree with people who say we have too many
:47:20. > :47:24.cameras, but it's too late. Do you think we have too many or do we need
:47:25. > :47:28.to be worried about it? Sadly, to get a debate going, I have to agree
:47:29. > :47:33.with anything -- everything Bonnie says! It is a necessary evil. You
:47:34. > :47:37.look at crimes being committed and people who have been detained as
:47:38. > :47:44.regards Tarik events or anything like that, you look at any crime and
:47:45. > :47:48.the first thing police say is, is there any CCTV? -- terror. It does
:47:49. > :47:52.help crime. Put yourself in this position, suppose your mother or
:47:53. > :47:57.your father or one of your children was assaulted, you would want that
:47:58. > :48:01.CCTV made available in a heartbeat and that is the reality. I was
:48:02. > :48:06.interested by your contributor, bad surveillance, I do not know what
:48:07. > :48:09.constitutes that. We all want good surveillance, what is bad
:48:10. > :48:13.surveillance? I am not clear. Tony, what is bad surveillance? It is
:48:14. > :48:16.surveillance where there is no legitimate aim for its presence and
:48:17. > :48:20.no need for its presence, it is the clap it, it shouldn't be there, it
:48:21. > :48:25.is run by people who do not know what they are doing. There privacy
:48:26. > :48:30.impact is not considered by those managing and operating it. Bad
:48:31. > :48:33.surveillance does exist. In relation to the ship has sailed, that is
:48:34. > :48:37.interesting and I would like to go back on that. People imagine video
:48:38. > :48:41.surveillance is simply the camera recording them. The reason I am
:48:42. > :48:46.launching this strategy is things are shifting quickly, we have video
:48:47. > :48:50.cameras linked to analytics that predict movement and identify facial
:48:51. > :48:54.features. It is important there is a public debate around this because we
:48:55. > :48:59.should not idly accept this. There needs to be a challenge and people
:49:00. > :49:03.who use that need to evidence that it needs to be there, it is valuable
:49:04. > :49:08.and it is therefore the good of the public and not just an organisation
:49:09. > :49:13.that can use or at worst abuse it. Angela, your reaction? Setting aside
:49:14. > :49:18.the things I agree with, what Nick says about protecting the innocent
:49:19. > :49:22.and convicting the guilty. My son suffered anti-Semitic abuse on the
:49:23. > :49:27.Tube and the first things suggested was, what is the CCTV pottage?
:49:28. > :49:34.Within the Jewish community, we have cameras in public places because of
:49:35. > :49:38.the contribution. We live in a surveillance state anyway and we
:49:39. > :49:42.survey ourselves and we submit and surrender so much information on
:49:43. > :49:46.social media, we use loyalty cards at supermarkets that tell whoever
:49:47. > :49:50.wants to know what I am buying, they can have it. As far as I am
:49:51. > :49:53.concerned, the information is neutral and it is what happens with
:49:54. > :49:58.the information that matters. If somebody wants to survey me walking
:49:59. > :50:01.up and down Oxford Circus or going into the supermarket or coming out
:50:02. > :50:10.of the swimming baths, great if they have nothing better to do, have a
:50:11. > :50:13.look, I have nothing to hide. The civil libertarians get so excitable
:50:14. > :50:17.about what is going to happen with this information. Most of it is so
:50:18. > :50:21.incredibly dull. And it can also really protectors. It is not
:50:22. > :50:27.Orwellian, it is necessary. Nick refer to certain cases many of us
:50:28. > :50:36.remember, Jamie border for example, it is sought his two killers taking
:50:37. > :50:41.him away captured on CCTV. -- Jamie Bulger. Reports from the College of
:50:42. > :50:45.policing says it can reduce instrumental crime but has no levels
:50:46. > :50:50.of violent crime, do you feel safe with CCTV watching you? No, I think
:50:51. > :50:57.it is being used in many areas as a cheap substitute for police on the
:50:58. > :51:01.beat. Instead of good, effective, intelligence driven community
:51:02. > :51:05.policing, people increasingly rely upon CCTV as a substitute. You are
:51:06. > :51:12.right, the Home Office report and a report to the London Assembly some
:51:13. > :51:16.years ago found that it has a very small effect as a deterrent. For
:51:17. > :51:20.more effective as a deterrent is better street lighting. Better
:51:21. > :51:25.street lighting can help, should some report show, reduce crime by
:51:26. > :51:29.20%. A far better and more successful rate than CCTV. And we
:51:30. > :51:35.also need to remember that when it comes to CCTV, we have got the 6
:51:36. > :51:38.million plus cameras all over the place, it may make people think that
:51:39. > :51:42.they are safer, but in terms of deterring crime, it doesn't. It
:51:43. > :51:49.gives people a false sense of security. I see where Peter is
:51:50. > :51:52.coming from, but the likelihood of having a police officer outside a
:51:53. > :51:56.district Post Office as somebody comes racing out and has beaten up
:51:57. > :52:00.some old boy collecting his pension, the chances of an officer being at
:52:01. > :52:04.the right place at the right time, they are very remote, far better to
:52:05. > :52:07.have a camera. How much better to have a camera focused on everything
:52:08. > :52:12.because then you will get them as they come out. Can I say something
:52:13. > :52:17.about the ship has sailed? I 100% agree with the contributor, we do
:52:18. > :52:22.need to have a discussion, a debate about how this is being used. But we
:52:23. > :52:27.also have to understand that the area we are entering in terms of the
:52:28. > :52:32.millennial is, the Next Generation, is a pretty free zone. So what we
:52:33. > :52:35.have to teach them is what surveillance means rather than
:52:36. > :52:40.having a debate about whether we have it or not, because we are going
:52:41. > :52:54.to have it. The debate continues. I say this every week, I bought myself
:52:55. > :52:59.every time! Please! -- or myself. People saying it is a necessary
:53:00. > :53:02.evil. Sarah says, there should be more as there is so much violence on
:53:03. > :53:18.our streets today. Peters says... Bring it back to the
:53:19. > :53:32.people. Paul says, as Angela did... Jason, on our Facebook page, posted
:53:33. > :53:45.this... And now Ciman the... -- Samantha Crawford. Angela has just
:53:46. > :53:50.given out the biggest site! In all seriousness, it is so easy, with the
:53:51. > :53:55.greatest respect, to lapse into the Big Brother cliche that we are
:53:56. > :54:02.somehow being watched. Another contributor said, doing what? Buying
:54:03. > :54:05.a packet of crisps? CCTV also condemns as the good behaviour. When
:54:06. > :54:11.you drive down the stretch of road and you have an alert to a speed
:54:12. > :54:14.camera, you look at your speedometer and you cut your speed, that can
:54:15. > :54:18.only reduce the number of accidents on the road. I do not know what the
:54:19. > :54:23.data says, you can spin the statistics. But if you know you are
:54:24. > :54:27.being watched, it is human nature to behave better. I agree. The argument
:54:28. > :54:31.is that we need this cameras that are more productive rather than the
:54:32. > :54:36.wasted ones, Tony, that do not help at all, just like drug in the
:54:37. > :54:41.streets. You need standards. At one of the key issues, you mentioned the
:54:42. > :54:45.Metropolitan Police with body cameras, they have undergone two
:54:46. > :54:49.years of rigorous training to teach officers how to use it. What
:54:50. > :54:54.concerns me is the proliferation of body cams in areas where people are
:54:55. > :54:58.vulnerable, the NHS, hospitals, where people have not had the same
:54:59. > :55:02.training. This is why we should not be complacent. It is OK to say we
:55:03. > :55:06.are being watched, so what? But you need to make sure that the data that
:55:07. > :55:10.is captured to does not go on YouTube, that the privacy is
:55:11. > :55:14.protected. It is not a case that the horse has bolted, you need to make
:55:15. > :55:20.sure that our standards. My strategy will press down across these sectors
:55:21. > :55:25.so people get held to account. We will keep an eye on that. Peter.
:55:26. > :55:29.CCTV right now is being used benignly. But it has established the
:55:30. > :55:33.infrastructure of a police state and it could be open to abuse in the
:55:34. > :55:37.future. Once you have the systems in place, there is no telling how they
:55:38. > :55:42.could be misused in the future. Necessary evil, as your contributors
:55:43. > :55:52.have said, but we must police their installation. It is all over! Thank
:55:53. > :55:54.you! Thank you! Sorry! That is it. People...
:55:55. > :55:56.That's just about all from us for this week.
:55:57. > :55:58.Today, Hindus across the UK will be celebrating Diwali,
:55:59. > :56:02.To help us mark it, we're joined by dancers from The Bhavan Centre,
:56:03. > :56:05.in London - the largest Indian cultural hub outside of India.
:56:06. > :56:28.Have a wonderful day, thank you very much, my panellists.
:56:29. > :59:15.Why do you want to go to Great Britain?
:59:16. > :59:19.Because it is Great Britain, you see? Great.