:00:00. > :00:12.Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. I'm Naga Munchetty. On today's
:00:13. > :00:15.programme, a model of multi-faith democracy, David Cameron's parting
:00:16. > :00:19.vision for Britain. One week after Brexit, with racist abuse on the
:00:20. > :00:23.increase, can religions stand together? Well, the Mayor of London
:00:24. > :00:26.think they can. There will be differences and the point is you can
:00:27. > :00:31.amplify the differences or you can focus on the things you've got in
:00:32. > :00:34.common. The Pope says Christians should seek forgiveness from gay
:00:35. > :00:39.people, but as people celebrate their sexuality, we ask what does
:00:40. > :00:46.that mean for the church's traditional stance on homosexuality?
:00:47. > :00:58.Have religions changed their tune on a Divisive issue? And Frederick
:00:59. > :01:02.Forsyth tells us why he is paying tributes to the victim of the Somme.
:01:03. > :01:07.Seemingly endless of little white stones mark where they now lie. I
:01:08. > :01:11.think it scars when you see all that. We will be looking for your
:01:12. > :01:17.views on our debates too, of course. Here is a talking point - should
:01:18. > :01:22.women have to wear these for work? Nicola Thorpe was told to wear heels
:01:23. > :01:25.or leave. She tells us why sexist dress codes need a dressing-down.
:01:26. > :01:30.Tommy has been out and about to sample your views. I really like to
:01:31. > :01:37.look smart, but to me that doesn't mean I have to wear heels, but I
:01:38. > :01:45.have four pairs of heels under my desk!
:01:46. > :01:51.Our guests are here ready to discuss those issues and Tom tomorrow is
:01:52. > :01:59.back here as well. -- Tommy Sandhu is back here as well. Flat shoes on
:02:00. > :02:02.today? Good morning, we want you to get in touch and be part of the
:02:03. > :02:06.show. Lots of dimp ways to get in contact. You can contact us by
:02:07. > :02:12.Facebook and Twitter. If you are tweeting don't forget to use the
:02:13. > :02:19.hashtag. You can also call us on our number:
:02:20. > :02:24.Standard geographic charges will apply. You can text us on:
:02:25. > :02:28.Text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can also
:02:29. > :02:32.e-mail us at: So lots of ways to get in touch,
:02:33. > :02:43.please do. There is no excuse not to get this touch. Thanks, Tommy. Let's
:02:44. > :02:48.meet our guests. Professor of contemporary Islamic studies at
:02:49. > :02:53.Oxford University and Andrea is a lawyer and the Director of Christian
:02:54. > :02:59.concern for our nation and clemant is the lead pastor of Eternity
:03:00. > :03:04.Church in Croydon. Thank you for joining us. What a week in
:03:05. > :03:09.politician it has been. David Cameron repeated his mantra that
:03:10. > :03:14.despite its imperfections, Britain is one of the most successful
:03:15. > :03:23.multi-race, Multi ethnic democracies on earth, but with a reported
:03:24. > :03:30.five-fold rise in racist attacks, does the Prime Minister's
:03:31. > :03:37.acclamation stand up to scrutiny is that a reachable reality or a
:03:38. > :03:41.far-fetched fantasy. Well, Sadiq Khan has been using Ramadan to
:03:42. > :03:53.reinforce religious tolerance and togetherness. We joined him. You
:03:54. > :03:59.wouldn't expect to hear a Muslim called to prayer in a place of
:04:00. > :04:03.Jewish worship, but at Finchley Reformed Synagogue in London, it is
:04:04. > :04:07.part of their effort to promote interfaith unity. It is easier to
:04:08. > :04:12.hear the voice of mistrust than it is to hear the voice that says, "It
:04:13. > :04:18.is going to be OK. We just need to work hard. We can do this together."
:04:19. > :04:24.So we're going to begin... Miriam and the synagogue have been hosting
:04:25. > :04:27.Muslims from Somalia since their nearby community centre was burned
:04:28. > :04:31.down in an arson attack three years ago. We're helping the Somali
:04:32. > :04:35.community celebrate their month of Ramadan and we're helping them do
:04:36. > :04:38.that by opening the doors to our synagogue and giving them an
:04:39. > :04:43.opportunity to be able to come together as a community. And really,
:04:44. > :04:47.in return, we're able to get to know each other. It is really been an
:04:48. > :04:52.experience of knowing that we have far more in common than we do, those
:04:53. > :04:57.differences. This evening, Muslims and Jews
:04:58. > :05:03.together, are marking Ramadan by observing the breaking of Islamic
:05:04. > :05:09.fast. They have a special guest. The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan. Begin
:05:10. > :05:14.with the greeting of peace. The mayor is full of praise for the
:05:15. > :05:18.display of unity shown by the Jewish and Muslim communities in Finchley.
:05:19. > :05:24.Not a Jew, not a Muslim, but a Christian. Christian said, "Darkness
:05:25. > :05:33.cannot drive out darkness. Only light can. Hate cannot drive out
:05:34. > :05:38.hate, only love can." Sharing a meal together, the people
:05:39. > :05:41.here believe is a good way of sharing experiences, breaking down
:05:42. > :05:46.barriers between faiths whilst retaining their own culture and
:05:47. > :05:51.individualality. -- individual ylt. There will be
:05:52. > :05:55.differences and you can amplify the differences or you can focus on what
:05:56. > :05:58.things you've got in common. If we're going to live together
:05:59. > :06:01.peacefully, harmoniously and with respect, we get on with each other
:06:02. > :06:03.and we build bridges rather than building walls and it is really
:06:04. > :06:08.important that we recognise in London we've got a great, great
:06:09. > :06:12.thing going on. We've got people from different backgrounds, not
:06:13. > :06:23.simply tolerating each other, but respecting and we can never be
:06:24. > :06:25.complacent. APPLAUSE
:06:26. > :06:29.Sadiq Khan there appealing for togetherness. Our first question
:06:30. > :06:35.this week is, is Britain a model of multi-faith democracy? Well, joining
:06:36. > :06:41.us for the debate down the line from our Birmingham studio is Elisa.
:06:42. > :06:45.First, I'd like to put the first question to you. We heard from Sadiq
:06:46. > :06:49.Khan, building bridges, not walls. The question of what is a
:06:50. > :06:53.multi-faith democracy. We saw Muslims breaking fast with Jews in
:06:54. > :06:57.the synagogue. Is that it? Is that an example of this multi-faith
:06:58. > :07:02.democracy? Yes. This is a great example so you have lots of such
:07:03. > :07:05.examples in Britain today at the grass-roots level and at the local
:07:06. > :07:09.level, lots of people are doing this and this is very important. Now,
:07:10. > :07:16.when it comes to a model, it is not only to respect each other and to
:07:17. > :07:20.eat together, the point is that if we really want complete society, it
:07:21. > :07:23.is to live together, to be together, it is more than we are doing and
:07:24. > :07:28.sometimes Cameron is just saying this now and sometimes he had
:07:29. > :07:31.contradictory statements about purlist in our society when he said
:07:32. > :07:35.integration that we have to talk more about Britishness, just after
:07:36. > :07:37.crisis, it is very important for us to have a policy and to have a
:07:38. > :07:41.vision which is helping the people to come together. So this is
:07:42. > :07:46.something which is very important. Equal rights for all, but
:07:47. > :07:51.acknowledging the fact that religious organisations can bring
:07:52. > :07:55.something to the civil society and come together out of solidarity and
:07:56. > :07:59.justice and mutual respect. Andrea, let me get a view from you. You're
:08:00. > :08:03.committed to the idea that Britain is a Christian country. Does that
:08:04. > :08:06.mean then you cannot welcome new faiths to be part of a British
:08:07. > :08:09.society? Well, I think quite the contrary. I think that what's
:08:10. > :08:15.happened and the reason why Britain itself is a model of democracy is
:08:16. > :08:22.because of its great Christian roots. Rooted deeply in biblical
:08:23. > :08:27.thought and biblical precepts which brings a great welcome and a great
:08:28. > :08:31.hospitality to all. Any great democracy of modern civilisation has
:08:32. > :08:37.been based on Christianity. It has been based on the Bible which
:08:38. > :08:41.welcomes all, but that is, in fact, the more that you get, lots of
:08:42. > :08:47.different views competing in the space and not one understanding of a
:08:48. > :08:52.culture, then sometimes there becomes more increasing chaos in the
:08:53. > :08:57.public discourse and in fact if you look at other countries across the
:08:58. > :09:02.globe. If we were to look at Islamic nations, there, there isn't the kind
:09:03. > :09:07.of freedom that you would find that the Christians give here, that our
:09:08. > :09:12.Christian heritage has given to all faiths and none in this place.
:09:13. > :09:15.Pastor, you see you nodding. Rabbi Laura, your reaction to that, the
:09:16. > :09:20.idea that we are a Christian nation, how does that make you feel as a
:09:21. > :09:23.Jew? Well, historically, when Jews have lived amongst Christians and
:09:24. > :09:29.Muslims, it has been Islamic Societies who have been much more
:09:30. > :09:37.tolerant because Christianity has a very defined mission to convert and
:09:38. > :09:40.that's at the end of our gospels. So I am uncomfortable with what you
:09:41. > :09:45.said. I don't think it recognises truth for its own sake which each
:09:46. > :09:52.religious or not religious group brings. I think there is an extra
:09:53. > :09:57.agenda of conversion that concerns me in what you're saying. The idea
:09:58. > :10:01.of multi-faith and multi-culture tries to say that every idea is
:10:02. > :10:06.equal and equally freeing of all people, but that's not the case.
:10:07. > :10:09.Islam, Judaism, Chrissanity say something very different about the
:10:10. > :10:16.truth as does secularism. It says there is no God. So actually if we
:10:17. > :10:23.think about that not everything can be true. Modern society, we may want
:10:24. > :10:27.to accept there is no truth or we're clamouring or for our own truth.
:10:28. > :10:33.That doesn't negate the fact that we can get along with our different
:10:34. > :10:37.views and Pastor, you're in a society in Croydon in the South
:10:38. > :10:42.London, very multi-faith... That's right. Society there. How does this
:10:43. > :10:46.reflect with the work you do there? I would agree that Britain is a
:10:47. > :10:49.Christian nation and you know, we use the word, "Democracy" In
:10:50. > :10:53.democracy is the idea of majority rule. The majority of people in
:10:54. > :10:58.Britain still identify themselves as Christians. We can argue about the
:10:59. > :11:02.figures, it declining and there is a growing sense that Christians are
:11:03. > :11:04.feeling that their views and their historical beliefs are being
:11:05. > :11:09.marginalised and that's causing tension. And I think there is a
:11:10. > :11:14.challenge, because when we say multi-faith, is at the expense of
:11:15. > :11:17.the host nations culture and belief system? We are a Christian country.
:11:18. > :11:22.There is churches everywhere. Went royalty, when they have a wedding,
:11:23. > :11:28.it is a great big church of England affair. The Queen is the head of the
:11:29. > :11:31.Church of England, it is a Christian faith that allowed other cultures
:11:32. > :11:35.and welcomed other cultures including my own family's culture to
:11:36. > :11:38.come into this country in the 1960s and have freedom and live a better
:11:39. > :11:41.lifestyle. The point of this discussion, is that we're talking
:11:42. > :11:48.about how comfortable people feel and if we are a multi-faith society.
:11:49. > :11:53.I want to bring in Elisa who is in Birmingham at the moment. I want to
:11:54. > :11:59.hear your story. You came to this country 11 years ago from Poland. We
:12:00. > :12:03.have been talking about tension, perhaps that has arisen and how we
:12:04. > :12:13.get along in a multi-faith society. What are your impressions? Well, I
:12:14. > :12:18.think Britain is a very good example of multi-faith and multi-cultural
:12:19. > :12:22.country. There is some many different communities and they are
:12:23. > :12:26.working together and especially at a grass-roots level. There are many
:12:27. > :12:31.examples of this co-operation and I downed stand that there are
:12:32. > :12:36.religious differences as has been said, but it doesn't mean that
:12:37. > :12:40.people cannot work together or cannot exist together and plan the
:12:41. > :12:45.future and be involved in a democratic process together. Do you
:12:46. > :12:50.feel comfortable here particularly we were talking in the light of
:12:51. > :12:54.Brexit, we have seen Hope Not Hate making moves to try to bring
:12:55. > :12:58.communities together. Have you had any experiences that perhaps made
:12:59. > :13:04.you feel uncomfortable of late? Well, it feels a bit different since
:13:05. > :13:12.we've got the results of the referendum and we had some hate
:13:13. > :13:19.speech and negative comments on my organisation I'm working for Twitter
:13:20. > :13:24.and Facebook accounts. They were, it was just a few incidents, but it is
:13:25. > :13:31.worrying what we hear from the rest of the country, the incidents which
:13:32. > :13:35.happened in Cambridge and London and other places when there was more
:13:36. > :13:41.significant attacks when people received notes and when there was
:13:42. > :13:47.graffiti over the buildings. That's what I found very unsettling and
:13:48. > :13:54.just showing something turned since the referendum. A poll conducted by
:13:55. > :13:57.the Jewish Chronicle says a third of Jews feel less safe after the
:13:58. > :14:01.referendum. Is that something you're identifying with?
:14:02. > :14:09.I don't think it's just about Jews at all. How we are as a country is
:14:10. > :14:15.very concerning. When we had the riots, there was a report called
:14:16. > :14:21.Parallel Lies by Ted Castle, and he is saying we are a far more
:14:22. > :14:26.fragmented, separate society than we used to be. What the referendum has
:14:27. > :14:31.done is put a sharp light on that. You have two things. One is showing
:14:32. > :14:35.fragmentation exists. And a political vacuum. I'm very concerned
:14:36. > :14:40.about that at the moment it's the place for leaders of all faiths and
:14:41. > :14:46.none to set a vision for what kind of Britain we want. A strong,
:14:47. > :14:51.multicultural, where we don't welcome diversity, but we benefit
:14:52. > :14:54.from it. We love it. You mentioned leaders of faith. What about
:14:55. > :14:59.politicians, Tariq? Do they have a possibility to ensure that we are
:15:00. > :15:03.cohesive as a society? Yes, of course, but the point which is very
:15:04. > :15:06.important is to get this trust between the politicians and the
:15:07. > :15:10.religious people to come together and to understand that this is a
:15:11. > :15:13.shared responsibility. This is why I want to respond to what you said,
:15:14. > :15:16.because I think it is very important, if you start by saying
:15:17. > :15:19.it's because it's a Christian country that we are open minded, and
:15:20. > :15:23.look at the Muslim majority countries and they are not, and we
:15:24. > :15:29.they shouldise religion, no, that's not true. In history Christian
:15:30. > :15:32.countries were sometimes colonising, and Christianity was used. What is
:15:33. > :15:36.important for us when we come together is to be self critical, to
:15:37. > :15:42.look at our own history, to look at our own meme and to understand that
:15:43. > :15:46.we have among us people who are not tolerant, people after Brexit,
:15:47. > :15:50."Frexit" happened to me three days telling me, go back home. What is
:15:51. > :15:55.that? What is happening? Happening? If we don't come together and be
:15:56. > :15:58.self critical about our own religious tradition and find in
:15:59. > :16:03.other religions people who are ready for us to build a pluralistic
:16:04. > :16:07.society, it doesn't mean that I'm undermining your faith. I'm adding
:16:08. > :16:10.to it, helping you to be a better Christian. It's not about the
:16:11. > :16:14.undermining of faith but the pursuit of truth. And in the public
:16:15. > :16:20.discourse. In our history and in our nation, when we've seen the poor
:16:21. > :16:26.disenfranchised in the 17th and 18th centuries, we've seen great
:16:27. > :16:30.reformers such as Wesley and Whitfield, Wilberforce come forward
:16:31. > :16:33.and as a result of giving the people back the Bible, knowledge of the
:16:34. > :16:39.Bible, I believe part of the problem of Great Britain today is we haven't
:16:40. > :16:43.encountered, we've lost the Jesus who was the most compassionate
:16:44. > :16:48.person that ever lived. That's fine, but you know what? Multi-faith
:16:49. > :16:52.society is where my presence is helping you to know better your
:16:53. > :16:57.religion. This is why this discussion... And you are welcome
:16:58. > :17:05.here. I know. Of course you are welcome. Please, you used the word
:17:06. > :17:14.welcome. Let's talk to Alicja. Do you still feel welcome here? Well,
:17:15. > :17:21.yes I think so. The first reaction was, and the first word we heard
:17:22. > :17:29.after the result was very negative. I had negative comments about people
:17:30. > :17:34.basically saying, you need to pack and go home. People saying that they
:17:35. > :17:38.wanted to leave the EU clearly because it is mainly because of the
:17:39. > :17:44.migration and they don't want EU migrants here. So it did make me
:17:45. > :17:49.feel unwelcome. During this week I also received really big number of
:17:50. > :17:58.positive messages and e-mails, even cards from people who wanted to say
:17:59. > :18:06.that, wanted to let me know that not everyone thinks that, only the
:18:07. > :18:10.minorities a few examples of the hate speech, that the majority of
:18:11. > :18:18.Britain supports migration and want migrants to stay here and they find
:18:19. > :18:21.it beneficial to the country. That's the other side of what happened
:18:22. > :18:29.since the referendum. There is lots of negative but also lots of
:18:30. > :18:37.positive comments. It is still early days and we are very anxious. We are
:18:38. > :18:41.kind of waiting to see whether those incidents were just in the beginning
:18:42. > :18:46.the first reaction, or is it the beginning of something which will
:18:47. > :18:52.stay. Indeed, thank you Alicja. You've been reacting to this
:18:53. > :18:55.conversation. Our viewers have been sending their tweets and texts.
:18:56. > :19:01.Tommy. In general people are saying they like the idea of a multi-faith
:19:02. > :19:48.society but worry that we can accept each other's differences.
:19:49. > :19:55.So many interesting views there. I was taking notes. Pastor Clement,
:19:56. > :19:58.one of the tweets there, the problem is a multicultural society. Another
:19:59. > :20:04.saying a secular society is the answer. Well, I want to comment
:20:05. > :20:07.about some of the racism that's come up since the Brexit. I was born in
:20:08. > :20:11.this country. Whilst we are not trying to play down the racism
:20:12. > :20:16.that's being perpetrated today, that's a far cry from the racism I
:20:17. > :20:21.suffered in the East End of London growing up. And so I think we are
:20:22. > :20:26.certainly more cohesive and more welcoming than we have been in the
:20:27. > :20:31.last 30 or 40 years. I suppose the problem is 331 hate crimes were
:20:32. > :20:34.reported to the police this week compared to a weekly average of 63.
:20:35. > :20:38.We are talking about this feeling, whether it is more that have been
:20:39. > :20:41.reported, or whether there's a feeling that people are feeling
:20:42. > :20:43.isolated. I don't see that in Croydon. Croydon's very
:20:44. > :20:47.multicultural. I don't sense that on the streets. I'm on the streets
:20:48. > :20:52.regularly talking to people one on one. We've got to realise this
:20:53. > :20:57.recent vote we had, 70% turned out to vote for it, I believe there was
:20:58. > :21:01.over 30 million people that voted that took part in it. So even the
:21:02. > :21:04.figures that are important are being reported, they are a small
:21:05. > :21:07.percentage of the overall figure. We've got to be careful how we
:21:08. > :21:11.report those statistics. It seems that a lot of the problem has been
:21:12. > :21:18.caused by the media's reporting of Brexit. Let me show you a photo. An
:21:19. > :21:25.NHS photo here of a theatre staff. What we are showing in this photo,
:21:26. > :21:30.titled We Are Europe, scrub nurses from Spain, an Irish radiographer, a
:21:31. > :21:36.German consultant anaesthetist, et cetera. Awesome. Andrea, why do you
:21:37. > :21:41.think this has had to be published now? I think we celebrate that,
:21:42. > :21:46.Great Britain, I'm half Italian. My father came over in the 1960s. I'm
:21:47. > :21:50.very... I love being British and Italian. I love the mix of cultures,
:21:51. > :21:56.and I love the welcome. It is this nation. Just because whether you
:21:57. > :22:02.voted for Leave or for Remain, if you love our nation, you believe in
:22:03. > :22:05.the freedom, non-coercion of people. That's what's given us great
:22:06. > :22:09.opportunity. I thank God for that opportunity. I'm probably sitting on
:22:10. > :22:13.this sofa because I was a little girl born to an Italian waiter, got
:22:14. > :22:17.the opportunity to go to a grammar school and pursue my dream of
:22:18. > :22:20.becoming a lawyer. So are we celebrating at the moment? We should
:22:21. > :22:26.celebrate, I think, but at the same time we have to be cautious with
:22:27. > :22:29.what's happening. Just the figures that you are giving, and we have to
:22:30. > :22:34.take this seriously. It means that after the vote what we have is
:22:35. > :22:41.people revealing feelings that are, we are scared. It is the poor
:22:42. > :22:44.feeling dispossessed. You know what, the starting points of us living
:22:45. > :22:49.together is not to tell me tore people you are welcome. They are at
:22:50. > :22:56.home. They are British Muslims, British Jewish people... If I said
:22:57. > :23:00.to you what you just said, you're welcome here, Angela. And remarks
:23:01. > :23:05.sorry. You are welcome here, come to my house for a cup of tea and then
:23:06. > :23:10.please go. It's a thing of power when you are able in a Christian
:23:11. > :23:13.space that you define to say, you're welcome here. What you are saying is
:23:14. > :23:18.you have more power and we are welcome to come in as guests and
:23:19. > :23:22.leave as guests. There is something very concerning about that. Every
:23:23. > :23:25.country must have a host. When I travel overseas, I've travelled all
:23:26. > :23:31.over the world, I accept and respect the culture which I'm going to. I go
:23:32. > :23:37.to the Middle East... You say TH health. Culture. There's a host
:23:38. > :23:41.culture. And when you are talking about Croydon, what we saw in the
:23:42. > :23:44.referendum was a massive difference across the country between what you
:23:45. > :23:49.see in London and what you see in other parts of the country, divided
:23:50. > :23:53.by class, divided by money, by location. So what we really saw is
:23:54. > :23:57.you may have 95% of people voting Remain in east Finchley, but it does
:23:58. > :24:01.not reflect the country. That was the shock. I'm going to have to draw
:24:02. > :24:09.this conversation to an end, but thank you so much for this. Your
:24:10. > :24:14.comments from viewers, and please do keep them coming as well. Frederick
:24:15. > :24:18.Forsyth, generally known as the author of best-selling blockbust ber
:24:19. > :24:24.Thillers like the day of the jackal, the dogs of war, he's been a foreign
:24:25. > :24:29.correspondent, a jet fighter pilot and associated with the odd spy in
:24:30. > :24:35.his time. But he has written a special poem set to music in memory
:24:36. > :24:41.of those who died in the battle of the Somme, the 100th anniversary of
:24:42. > :24:45.which is celebrated this week. Nikki Bedi went to talk to him about his
:24:46. > :24:50.remarkable career. Freddie, we are sitting in your study full of
:24:51. > :24:54.memories of your well lived life, and to my left is an electric
:24:55. > :25:00.typewriter, which I understand is not there as a piece of memorabilia.
:25:01. > :25:06.You actually use it? Yes, daily. And you haven't decided to move on to...
:25:07. > :25:10.I have an iPad but I don't have a computer. And why do you prefer to
:25:11. > :25:19.write on the typewriter? I don't know. Sadly my wife calls me a
:25:20. > :25:22.dinosaur. She's a computer lady but I respond, looks dinosaurs rule
:25:23. > :25:28.there had world for 50 million years. How long have the computer
:25:29. > :25:33.geeks been around. You started as a foreign correspondent didn't you?
:25:34. > :25:42.Yes, in a provincial paper for three years. I was lucky to be taken on by
:25:43. > :25:46.Reuteres. You were in Nigeria for the very bloody Biafran conflict.
:25:47. > :25:52.Yes. You must have seen and experienced things there which have
:25:53. > :25:57.surely shaped the way you think, and perhaps seen what evils human beings
:25:58. > :26:02.are capable of doing to each other? Yes, he seen the brutal dictatorship
:26:03. > :26:07.of East Germany already by then, but this was mass slaughter.
:26:08. > :26:14.Particularly of children. You don't see... Reporters are not ro boss.
:26:15. > :26:18.You have feelings. Although I was supposed to write dispassionately
:26:19. > :26:22.and accurately, obviously, you can't not feel, if you see an entire field
:26:23. > :26:28.the size of a football pitch of dying children, which is what I saw.
:26:29. > :26:33.You are a Christian by faith. Do you think that that has played a part in
:26:34. > :26:40.perhaps helping you through certain periods in your life? Not really.
:26:41. > :26:45.I'm not a very active, I sometimes describe myself as a lapseed rot
:26:46. > :26:47.stand. , I sometimes describe myself as a lapseed rot stand. , I
:26:48. > :26:50.sometimes describe myself as a lapseed rot stand. -- Protestant. If
:26:51. > :26:56.there isn't a people being up there somewhere, this is a wilderness of a
:26:57. > :27:03.place, the world, in chaos, a howling desert. Where might reveals
:27:04. > :27:06.and the good are trodden on and the eve ill survive and prosper.
:27:07. > :27:10.Freddie, you have been close to death on more than one occasion.
:27:11. > :27:16.You've been shot at. You've been bombed. You've been hunted by spy
:27:17. > :27:21.catchers. Are you lucky, blessed or I don't know, smart? Lucky, not very
:27:22. > :27:25.smart. I wouldn't have got into these scrapes in the first place had
:27:26. > :27:28.I been smart. But lucky. A number of occasions I was in a place or a
:27:29. > :27:34.situation where I thought I don't think I'm going to survive this. I
:27:35. > :27:40.think, and I've my life's over. And I managed somehow to slip away. Give
:27:41. > :27:45.me an example. In an open boat on the Indian Ocean. I said in the book
:27:46. > :27:49.that I've never met a man who had gone across the ocean in an open
:27:50. > :27:52.boat who did not believe in God. Because believe me when you are very
:27:53. > :28:00.close to death, you pray. You really do. What do you, who do you pray to?
:28:01. > :28:04.That's the point. The guy you've ignored for so long. You ask him, if
:28:05. > :28:10.he is up there, to help you get out of this mess. We know you for
:28:11. > :28:15.writing best-selling hillers. But now you've written an incredibly
:28:16. > :28:21.moving poem that's been set to music, Fallen Soldier. The last line
:28:22. > :28:23.of that is then you and your comrades will march once again. I
:28:24. > :28:29.assumed that meant that this soldier... The resurrection of life.
:28:30. > :28:34.The line before that says, you will hear his last Reveille. God's last
:28:35. > :28:39.Reveille, the bugle call that gets soldiers up in the morning. Yes, it
:28:40. > :28:47.is a reference to the afterlife. In the poem, or the song, whichever way
:28:48. > :28:52.away want to look at it, you do really beautifully describe how
:28:53. > :28:56.these young men were handsome and we never told them how much we loved
:28:57. > :29:02.them and then they give their all. And they are all, their all was
:29:03. > :29:09.often their life. Was this something that made you realise how much of a
:29:10. > :29:18.sacrifice that was? Well, I had been to the killing fields of Flanders
:29:19. > :29:22.and I've seen the great monuments of Thiepval and Menin Gate and so on.
:29:23. > :29:26.The seemingly endless fields of little white stones that mark where
:29:27. > :29:30.they now lie, and the walls with literally tens of thousands of
:29:31. > :29:37.names, where there was no body to bury. Blown to pieces. But the name
:29:38. > :29:42.was recorded. Quite a few, tens of thousands where it just says,
:29:43. > :29:46.Snowden only to God. Meaning blown to pieces, never discovered who he
:29:47. > :29:52.was, or drowned in mud and never recovered at all, but missing and
:29:53. > :29:58.therefore dead. I think it scars you when you see all that.
:29:59. > :30:04.Do you believe in an after life? That's where I really do have a big
:30:05. > :30:12.question mark over my head because I don't know, I haven't made up my
:30:13. > :30:15.mind. I in my last book I making a mocking reference about having had
:30:16. > :30:19.so much luck and if there is someone up there, I better make up my mind
:30:20. > :30:24.pretty soon or I may have to explain myself to him! Is it Freddie or
:30:25. > :30:30.Frederick Forsyth the poet as opposed to the blockbuster thriller
:30:31. > :30:36.writer? No, it is Frederick Forsyth the retired old codger!
:30:37. > :30:40.We're going to have a special performance of that poem at the end
:30:41. > :30:44.of the programme. This week Pope Francis says it is
:30:45. > :30:48.right for the Catholic Church to apologise for being very negative
:30:49. > :30:52.about gay people. Next week, the General Synod of the Church of
:30:53. > :30:56.England will take three days to discuss sexuality and this summer
:30:57. > :31:01.the church is setting up a lesbian, gay, by sexual and transgender
:31:02. > :31:06.congregation to support and supplement Christians who identify
:31:07. > :31:16.themselves as LGBT. As we come to the end of a month of gay pride
:31:17. > :31:27.marches across the world. Is it reneging on traditional teaching and
:31:28. > :31:30.perhaps taking tolerance too far? Have religions taken homosexuality
:31:31. > :31:34.too far. You are a Catholic and you are a gay man? Yes. You're married
:31:35. > :31:37.and you have children? Yes. What does the Pope's comments, what do
:31:38. > :31:43.they mean to you? I'm delighted that he made them. I think it is high
:31:44. > :31:49.time, I was in fact expecting some sort of apology at sometime, I
:31:50. > :31:54.didn't expect it to come so soon. But I think we need to see this in a
:31:55. > :31:58.broader context. This was one incident from the Pope, but there
:31:59. > :32:04.were other apologies before that. I was in Sweden a few months ago for
:32:05. > :32:08.the European forum and in the opening service the bishop said
:32:09. > :32:11.precisely the same thing. He said the church needed an act of
:32:12. > :32:18.repentance for the past harm done to gay people. At the family synod last
:32:19. > :32:24.year in Rome, the group of German speaking bishops collectively issued
:32:25. > :32:29.precisely an apology for the harm done to gay people. Does this make a
:32:30. > :32:33.difference this wasn't part of an official Vatican statement. I think
:32:34. > :32:37.he made the comments to journalist on a plane from America? It wasn't
:32:38. > :32:42.an official statement. It was part of a broader interview which I think
:32:43. > :32:46.explains why it was so limited. A lot of gay Catholic commentators
:32:47. > :32:51.around the world expressed disappointment that it didn't go
:32:52. > :32:55.further and didn't go into why the apology is needed and didn't go into
:32:56. > :32:59.how we can prevent harm in future. It didn't go into what we can do to
:33:00. > :33:04.heal the hurt. That was important. But the fact that it was just a
:33:05. > :33:09.small part of a bolder interview, to me, excuses that. I think what is
:33:10. > :33:15.important is that it begins to open up a conversation that is way over
:33:16. > :33:22.due is what does the church need to do looking ahead to properly
:33:23. > :33:26.integrate gay and lesbian people? Rabbi Laura, it is an issue close to
:33:27. > :33:30.your heart. You are the parent of a by sexual person who defines
:33:31. > :33:34.themselves as gender known binary. For those who aren't familiar with
:33:35. > :33:38.that term, can you explain that? It took me ages to understand the
:33:39. > :33:42.termologies and if people don't know, it doesn't mean disapproval
:33:43. > :33:48.and part of it is just to say, "What does that mean? I don't understand."
:33:49. > :33:52.For our older child, that means they were born with the biology of a girl
:33:53. > :33:57.and that's how they were treated iflt I don't know what that means
:33:58. > :34:10.for many years. They're now in their mid-20s and it means that for them,
:34:11. > :34:14.we use the pro noun them. I'm noticing when people talk about she,
:34:15. > :34:20.I say it is them or they and this means they don't feel particularly
:34:21. > :34:24.like male or female. They feel both and there is a fluidity in it which
:34:25. > :34:27.is interesting. Do you think this fluidity has been picked up by the
:34:28. > :34:32.Pope with the comments? Well, I don't think that's the main thing
:34:33. > :34:38.going on with the Pope. What I love about what he did, he didn't say,
:34:39. > :34:44."We welcome." And didn't remind people of the biblical view. He
:34:45. > :34:48.said, "We apologise." Therefore, we as religious leaders have a special
:34:49. > :34:56.role in this because of the role that religion has and still has in
:34:57. > :35:00.oppressing LG BA it people. The religious spectrum is wide on
:35:01. > :35:04.attitudes to LGBT people, but they have been physically hurt and
:35:05. > :35:09.persecuted and the thing that we missed out in the trailer is
:35:10. > :35:12.Orlando, half a second ago and that's a massiveks massive awful
:35:13. > :35:19.terrible thing and religions have a part to play in that. You're
:35:20. > :35:27.referring to the shooting of people of LGBT nature who were celebrating
:35:28. > :35:31.life and was shot mers alsoly. Yes. Rabbi Laura brought this up, what
:35:32. > :35:40.role does religious leaders have in Islam when it comes to accepting
:35:41. > :35:43.homosexuality or apologising for the way homosexuals were treated? The
:35:44. > :35:50.Pope was not apologising. He didn't say that. What he was saying is that
:35:51. > :35:54.we have, we can do it in the way he was responding to welcoming, by the
:35:55. > :36:00.way it was something which was, "We have to change our attitude towards
:36:01. > :36:04.homosexuals." This is what he has been saying after 2010 because in
:36:05. > :36:12.2010 he was very harsh on the issue when he was a cardinal. The words
:36:13. > :36:17.we're using, he apologised for being very negative about gay people. Yes,
:36:18. > :36:23.but it is not the same as an apology which is an official statement
:36:24. > :36:27.saying this is... Isn't this mincing words and isn't this more about him
:36:28. > :36:31.saying that as the head of a religious order you need to take
:36:32. > :36:35.responsibility for caring for all of your congregation and this is what
:36:36. > :36:39.needs to be looked at and how does that reflect in Islam? The main
:36:40. > :36:44.Islamic position is soy what the church is saying in the classical is
:36:45. > :36:49.that homosexuality is not promoted by our religion. Now, the point here
:36:50. > :36:56.and this something in our liberal societies, we need to be able to
:36:57. > :37:02.say, this is morality, you can have your position. The question is how
:37:03. > :37:05.do you deal with the people who have another opinion by saying,
:37:06. > :37:11."Respecting the people. Respecting what they think. Respecting who they
:37:12. > :37:15.are. Even though you don't personally on your, with your belief
:37:16. > :37:18.system and we should be able because what you said, I think, it is
:37:19. > :37:25.important entering into a discussion. Being able to discuss
:37:26. > :37:32.the issue without rejecting. This is the starting point. If not, it is
:37:33. > :37:36.going to be a dogmatic position. It is open for us to respect each
:37:37. > :37:41.other. This is what the Pope was saying. It is being open to
:37:42. > :37:44.discussion as well, Andrea, the General Synod is dedicating three
:37:45. > :37:49.days of discussion to this. Surely, that's a good thing? Of course, it
:37:50. > :37:53.is good to discuss these things and to discuss what the Bible says about
:37:54. > :37:58.this which is what synod is doing, but I think what's important is to
:37:59. > :38:03.look at what the Bible says and then be true to it. This morning I read
:38:04. > :38:08.coming into here, I read the Gospel of Mark and there we meet in those
:38:09. > :38:13.pages Jesus Christ, the most compassionate man that ever lived
:38:14. > :38:18.and he said we must love God and to love our neighbour and part of
:38:19. > :38:22.loving our neighbour is to actually, he pointed out that each one of us
:38:23. > :38:30.is broken, is falling. Each one of is simple, if we lust after someone
:38:31. > :38:34.else, that's sinful. The pattern for human sexuality, we're born male and
:38:35. > :38:37.female, to be with one another, to have sexual expression within
:38:38. > :38:44.marriage only. That's a very high ideal and that Jesus, when he came,
:38:45. > :38:49.he was to point us to that beauty, to purity and actually he died on
:38:50. > :38:57.the cross so that we might, so that we might, actually be forgiven. I am
:38:58. > :39:04.keen to get an opinion. I don't think lust is sinful. That's what
:39:05. > :39:10.Jesus said. Andrea, that's why I'm not a Christian, I haven't finished.
:39:11. > :39:14.The difference between this discussion and a discussion about
:39:15. > :39:19.beliefs, this is not about beliefs this. Is about sexuality and gender.
:39:20. > :39:23.This our nature. We had a different discussion in the referendum. When
:39:24. > :39:26.you rightly talked about us being self critical, you can have the
:39:27. > :39:30.discussion and the debate, but you're not going to persuade someone
:39:31. > :39:33.out of being gay. That's who they are. That's their very core nature.
:39:34. > :39:38.We have had lots of comments from our viewers, thank you very much for
:39:39. > :39:42.staying in touch. Tommy, you have been taking stock. A lot of people
:39:43. > :39:46.have been saying the comments on the Pope are long over due, but some say
:39:47. > :39:51.it goes against the teachings of the Bible. One viewer says, "Gays are
:39:52. > :39:59.just one of many groups of people the church needs to seek forgiveness
:40:00. > :40:03.from." Another said, "Jesus would not be a homophobe. He had a lot of
:40:04. > :40:09.time for people who faced discrimination." Another viewer
:40:10. > :40:14.says, "Homosexuals are God's people and the abuse is a concernmed more
:40:15. > :40:19.can be done when all are welcome." A text here from Dave, says, "What a
:40:20. > :40:24.fantastic move by the Pope to embrace gay people and end this
:40:25. > :40:27.division. Those who oppose this move must to re-think their place in a
:40:28. > :40:34.modern world and their place in the church as well." John says, "The
:40:35. > :40:38.Pope's liberalism is non biblical and is out of step with the teaching
:40:39. > :40:44.of the Bible." Very positive comments there. There is the idea of
:40:45. > :40:48.a moral disorder when it comes to homosexuality. Are you immoral in
:40:49. > :40:54.the eyes the church? There is nothing in the Catholic Church which
:40:55. > :40:58.is against homosexuality, not at allment there are some -- all. There
:40:59. > :41:02.are specific items in church teaching by are critical of
:41:03. > :41:10.homosexual acts, but that's a difference to being against
:41:11. > :41:15.homosexuality as a Chrissian as an orren tation. Can you separate the
:41:16. > :41:18.two really? The church teaching is clear a same-sex orientation is
:41:19. > :41:21.natural and it is wrong to try to change it. The only thing the church
:41:22. > :41:26.does do is get into detail about how we deal with that. But I want to
:41:27. > :41:29.come back to the question of the Anglican Church conversation. This
:41:30. > :41:33.is terribly important and exciting. It is not about discussing what the
:41:34. > :41:37.Bible says. There are disagreements about what the Bible says, but what
:41:38. > :41:41.shared conversations is about is also about listening to the
:41:42. > :41:45.experience, the lived experience of gay people and that is really
:41:46. > :41:52.important. What's interesting in the lived experience is a good friend of
:41:53. > :41:56.mine who has same-sex attraction and was married found the teaching of
:41:57. > :42:01.the Bible, the teaching that says to flee from that, to stay with his
:42:02. > :42:05.wife, he found that so freeing because he stayed married to his
:42:06. > :42:11.wife. He stayed a father to his son and his daughter and he said it was
:42:12. > :42:15.the teaching, the clear teaching in the Bible. This is one of my friends
:42:16. > :42:21.who today is so pleased that he stayed faithful to the Jesus' words
:42:22. > :42:25.in the Gospel. Thank you for your comments. I think we could keep
:42:26. > :42:30.talking about this, but we haven't got time. That's my favourite phrase
:42:31. > :42:39.on this programme, "We haven't got time." Thank you so much. To heel or
:42:40. > :42:43.not to heel? That's the question. What impact does your footwear have
:42:44. > :42:47.on your performance? Very little. Why are corporate dress codes
:42:48. > :42:51.requiring women to wear high heels at work? Earlier this year a
:42:52. > :42:55.temporary worker was sent home without pay for refusing to meet the
:42:56. > :43:00.female grooming policy of wearing two to four inch heels for her role
:43:01. > :43:04.as a receptionist. Well, she was incensed by what she felt was a
:43:05. > :43:07.sexist policy towards female employees and started a petition to
:43:08. > :43:11.make it illegal for a company to require women to wear high heels at
:43:12. > :43:15.work. 150,000 signatures later, this week the pedestrian tishes was
:43:16. > :43:20.discussed at a Parliamentary equalities committee. The question
:43:21. > :43:24.is, would a man have to succumb to the same stipulations or is it only
:43:25. > :43:30.women who have to toe the line when it comes to corporate clothes? Along
:43:31. > :43:35.with Nicola, we will be joined by Liz Brewer, but first, armed with
:43:36. > :43:38.his favourite stilettos, you know, he indulged while he was at
:43:39. > :43:45.university, Tommy took to the streets to find out if it is time to
:43:46. > :43:47.leave the high heels at home? You know what, no, how does anybody walk
:43:48. > :44:00.in these? Would you wear these in the
:44:01. > :44:05.workplace? No. They are red and very high. You picked up on the colour
:44:06. > :44:09.first. I want to be comfortable when I'm going to work, not to feel like
:44:10. > :44:15.I'm forced to wear something. Would always wear high heels in the
:44:16. > :44:20.workplace? I don't, but when I'm in a meeting or attending a conference,
:44:21. > :44:24.I feel more in power. You are dressed smart because you are on TV.
:44:25. > :44:29.I dress smart because I'm working. It depends where you work. So can it
:44:30. > :44:38.be justified. You are a corporate company and you want ladies to wear
:44:39. > :44:43.high heels? Heels?. If it is if it's the company protocol. Why don't you
:44:44. > :44:48.come to work in track suit bottoms? I can do my job wearing whatever I
:44:49. > :44:56.want. I like to look smart but that doesn't mean I have to wear heels. I
:44:57. > :45:00.do have four pairs under my desk. It is important to have guidelines but
:45:01. > :45:04.to enforce things that are not appropriate, that's not the right
:45:05. > :45:08.thing to do. Is it sexist for an organisation to impose a high heel
:45:09. > :45:17.dress code on their employees? It is. If it is imposed on males, why
:45:18. > :45:23.on females? What if they said, we would like you to wear a nice tight
:45:24. > :45:28.T-shirt, come in that tank top, let's see what you're about? I
:45:29. > :45:31.would, because I would follow what I'm told, but you raise a valid
:45:32. > :45:36.point. You've got choice. It is up to you. When I wear heels it is up
:45:37. > :45:44.to me, just don't tell me to wear heels. You can wear heels if you
:45:45. > :45:50.want to. I feel empowered. Tommy feels empowered. What did we make
:45:51. > :45:54.you do this morning? They made me walk around on my Tippie it's. I
:45:55. > :46:00.couldn't do it. And how are your feet now? Still sore. So you've
:46:01. > :46:06.formed an opinion? It is impossibility. I don't know how you
:46:07. > :46:13.ladies do it. I was flats today because I was expecting you to wear
:46:14. > :46:21.heels. Nick larks are those the ones you wore to work? Similar. Are all
:46:22. > :46:29.dress codes of pressive? No, I don't think all dress codes. I agree the
:46:30. > :46:32.employer has a right to enforce a dress code on customer-facing
:46:33. > :46:36.employees. As it stands the law says an employer can distinguish between
:46:37. > :46:41.male and female dress codes. I don't understand why that's essential in a
:46:42. > :46:46.role that isn't gender specific. What about, and I can give you lots
:46:47. > :46:53.of examples, a make-up counter? Promoting a particular brand and
:46:54. > :46:59.that's the way. So there has to be a distinction does there? No, because
:47:00. > :47:03.a man working in a make-up store would also wear make-up. It is down
:47:04. > :47:06.to choice, it is part of what I want to do with this campaign and
:47:07. > :47:11.petition, it should be about choice. For women to have as much choice to
:47:12. > :47:15.be comfortable at work as men do. Liz, this comes down to what your
:47:16. > :47:19.idea of comfortable is and what smart is. I know what I'm
:47:20. > :47:25.comfortable in out of work. I'm comfortable in my flat shoes. You've
:47:26. > :47:27.chosen to wear heels today. Yes. Can employers skew the difference
:47:28. > :47:33.between what's acceptable? Can they dictate? Yes. In many ways I agree
:47:34. > :47:38.exactly with what Nicola's done. It is about time this was addressed.
:47:39. > :47:44.Nuclear weapons the workplace. To expect women to be wearing heels for
:47:45. > :47:50.seven or eight hours a day. I'm not sure if it is heels or high heels.
:47:51. > :47:54.There's a difference. A high heel would be ridiculous to wear for 8
:47:55. > :48:00.hours. Even I couldn't do that. I do wear heels, because I'm not very
:48:01. > :48:04.tall and I like to be a bit taller. In this particular instance here we
:48:05. > :48:08.have in the workplace, you are representing the company, you need
:48:09. > :48:13.look smart. A high heel doesn't necessarily determine looking smart.
:48:14. > :48:16.You can have a heel. You can have a thick little heel. There's a
:48:17. > :48:23.difference between heels and flat shoes. Flat shoes, if they are
:48:24. > :48:27.suggesting that flat shoes are untidy, that's a mistake. You are
:48:28. > :48:32.looking perfectly good. Thank you. But you've got a substantial flat
:48:33. > :48:39.shoe. There are, things like the ballet shoes, which are very much in
:48:40. > :48:43.vogue now. Since the millennium, 15 years ago, girls have destroyed
:48:44. > :48:49.their feet because they have been wearing shoes which were totally
:48:50. > :48:54.unsuitable for feet. When a baby is born, she just has cartilage. She
:48:55. > :49:00.doesn't form the 28 bonus et cetera for about 16 or 17 years. During
:49:01. > :49:07.that time, the foot has to grow. From then on you have to look after
:49:08. > :49:11.your feet. I do agree with her. They do need to change the law. And
:49:12. > :49:18.employers do have to address this. And not insist on high heels.
:49:19. > :49:23.Andrea, is it oppressive? Nicola looks stunning today and would look
:49:24. > :49:29.wonderful in any smart, in any position. I think that behind that
:49:30. > :49:32.question, obviously if the rule to wear heels is somehow about
:49:33. > :49:37.objectifying the woman, then of course that would be sexist. If it
:49:38. > :49:42.is more to do with a company's culture and a dress code, it
:49:43. > :49:47.wouldn't necessarily be so, because many in the City have to be suited
:49:48. > :49:53.and booted. They to put on a torics wear a sharp collar. There is an
:49:54. > :49:56.appropriateness about uniforms or dress codes. Have you ever felt
:49:57. > :50:01.you've needed to dress a certain way? Of course. And I'm not against
:50:02. > :50:07.dress codes. That's normal. I think that there's a difference between
:50:08. > :50:11.men and women, but the point to just write these down and say, you have
:50:12. > :50:14.to think about it, that's a problem. It is deeper than that. It's the
:50:15. > :50:18.very presence of women on the labour market. This is the point. Whatever
:50:19. > :50:22.you can say, this is the culture of the company. No, at the end, the
:50:23. > :50:26.only thing which has to be clear is that it is for the woman to choose,
:50:27. > :50:30.it is not for you to impose. Decency, that's right. Skills,
:50:31. > :50:34.that's right. And go for the same salary for the same skills. That's
:50:35. > :50:37.the main problems. These discussions about imposing this. And this is the
:50:38. > :50:43.only way, this is our culture. No, it is not a culture. This is sexism
:50:44. > :50:49.in a clear way. I think we can accept a company culture in such a
:50:50. > :50:53.way. Let's find out what our viewers are saying. A lot of people are
:50:54. > :50:57.saying we should be able to wear what we want in the workplace.
:50:58. > :51:18.Health and safety concerns being raised as well.
:51:19. > :51:26.Next week I'm coming in in a track suit and high heels, done.
:51:27. > :51:30.And I will be in my track sociality is it sexist? EWLINE And I will be
:51:31. > :51:35.in my track sociality is it sexist? -- my track suit. Is it sexist?
:51:36. > :51:38.There's a way of describing a dress code and explaining it. Women and
:51:39. > :51:43.men do not like to be dictated to. If you are going to say, you cannot
:51:44. > :51:48.wear heels. Hang on a moirncts what you need to do is sit there and
:51:49. > :51:54.explain what it is that is expected of you. Regarding dress smart. And
:51:55. > :51:58.shoes in particular. If it is the fact that you are front of house and
:51:59. > :52:04.you are welcoming, and you may occasionally have to get up and
:52:05. > :52:08.greet a guest, yes, maybe a heel, but not a high heel. Heel. A heel
:52:09. > :52:12.might be considered better than flat. When did it become normalised
:52:13. > :52:17.that women are not only expected to look smart at work but attractive?
:52:18. > :52:20.It is integrated into our culture. It is not just business culture,
:52:21. > :52:25.that women are still seen differently. What's the goal of your
:52:26. > :52:30.campaign? Is it to not have the dress codes? Or is it to make sure
:52:31. > :52:33.women don't feel under pressure to be attractive rather than
:52:34. > :52:38.functional? That's very important. That's difficult to deal with,
:52:39. > :52:42.change of legislation, but if legislation is changed, then the
:52:43. > :52:46.response to that would be fantastic. Women already, because of the
:52:47. > :52:51.campaign, are thinking about why do I feel like I need to be attractived
:52:52. > :52:55.a work? And employers are thinking, what can we change to make women
:52:56. > :52:59.feel comfortable and the focus needs to be on whether people can do their
:53:00. > :53:03.job, not whether they look attractive. You were nodding. You
:53:04. > :53:09.have ever felt the pressure to be attractive at work? No, it has never
:53:10. > :53:15.happened to me. Thank you for the question! I think that the point is
:53:16. > :53:19.very important. The moment you start asking the question, are we
:53:20. > :53:23.expecting you to be attractive and functional, it means there's a
:53:24. > :53:27.difference between men and women. That's the starting point of the
:53:28. > :53:32.problem. Be functional, do your job and be comfortable. But there's a
:53:33. > :53:36.difference between men and women. Enteringly men are feeling the
:53:37. > :53:41.pressure on this as well. The point is to impose it. We live in a
:53:42. > :53:46.generation where the gender norms are being blurred. To that that in
:53:47. > :53:51.law is not right. Thank you all for your time. That's it from us today.
:53:52. > :53:56.Thank you to our guests and tow four your comments. We are going to end
:53:57. > :53:59.in this week of commemoration with Frederick Forsyth's poem, Fallen
:54:00. > :54:05.Soldier. A tribute to those who died in the battle of the Somme. It is
:54:06. > :54:07.set to music and performed by soprano Melissa Alder. Thank you,
:54:08. > :54:22.goodbye. # Sleep in peace,
:54:23. > :54:26.Fallen Soldier # Where your kinsfolk
:54:27. > :54:30.here have laid you # While we who are left
:54:31. > :54:39.tread so safe above. # You are home from the fight,
:54:40. > :54:48.from the clamour, from the danger # Laid in the breast
:54:49. > :54:57.of the land that you love. # We should have told you more
:54:58. > :55:05.how deeply we loved you # We knew not how
:55:06. > :55:14.short was the while # To kiss and to hold,
:55:15. > :55:22.to cherish your presence, # The sound of your laughter,
:55:23. > :55:44.the sun of your smile. # When you first
:55:45. > :55:47.marched to the colours # You pulled on your badge,
:55:48. > :56:00.standing straight, standing tall # And you gave us your promise,
:56:01. > :56:10.your sworn word of honour. # And in your last moment
:56:11. > :56:24.you gave us your all. # So sleep Fallen Soldier,
:56:25. > :56:35.here in your homeland. # Wrapped in our flag
:56:36. > :56:54.until when on some far distant morn # Then you and your comrades
:56:55. > :57:05.will march once again #.