:00:00. > :00:13.On today's programme: A 14-year-old girl who died of cancer has her body
:00:14. > :00:16.frozen in the hope of a cure and being woken again.
:00:17. > :00:20.We examine the ethical questions this case raises.
:00:21. > :00:25.As prison officers strike to protest about the volatile state
:00:26. > :00:27.of overcrowded jails, we ask should we keep
:00:28. > :00:30.Greater community integration is key to Britain's future
:00:31. > :00:42.You have got divisive political forces rising across the world. We
:00:43. > :00:47.have got the choice. We can either build bridges or walls.
:00:48. > :00:52.Len Goodman tells me why he has no plans to take it easy after stepping
:00:53. > :01:09.You floated across that floor like butter on a hot crumpet. Len
:01:10. > :01:10.Goodman! I am not retiring. You must never retire. Once you retire, you
:01:11. > :01:22.never get a day off. Our panel is here and so is
:01:23. > :01:24.Tommy Sandhu who'll be sharing Good morning. Lots of ways for you
:01:25. > :01:35.to get in touch. You can contact us by
:01:36. > :01:37.Facebook and Twitter. Don't forget to use
:01:38. > :01:39.the hashtag #bbcsml. Standard geographic
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:01:53. > :02:07.sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk. Have you got your tissues ready?
:02:08. > :02:11.Have I? For the emotions? Emotions will be running high today because
:02:12. > :02:12.it is the last one of the series and the last chance to get your thoughts
:02:13. > :02:14.to us. Bharti Tailor is the head
:02:15. > :02:22.of the Hindu Forum for Europe. Andrew Pierce is a journalist
:02:23. > :02:24.and broadcaster. Afua Hirsch is a writer
:02:25. > :02:26.and human rights barrister. Murray Ballard is a photographer
:02:27. > :02:28.and documentarian. A letter a dying girl wrote
:02:29. > :02:33.to a judge was revealed this week. The 14-year-old who had terminal
:02:34. > :02:36.cancer wanted to have her body She told Mr Justice Peter Jackson,
:02:37. > :02:42."I want to live longer and I think that in the future,
:02:43. > :02:45.they might find a cure The teenager asked him to allow her
:02:46. > :02:50.mother to carry out her wish, even though her father
:02:51. > :02:52.at that time disagreed. The judge granted her request
:02:53. > :02:56.and the girl has since died. Human embryos can be cryo-preserved
:02:57. > :02:59.for years but more complicated structures seem
:03:00. > :03:03.beyond current science. The judge in this case said he had
:03:04. > :03:06.not considered whether cryonic preservation had any scientific
:03:07. > :03:09.basis but there might need to be We'll discuss the implications
:03:10. > :03:12.of this story with our First, Tommy has been
:03:13. > :03:25.sampling some views. Nobody can fail to be moved by the
:03:26. > :03:29.letter that the 14-year-old girl wrote to the judge in this case. Nor
:03:30. > :03:33.can we not appreciate the dilemma faced by her parents but this has
:03:34. > :03:40.triggered a nationwide debate. Do we really want to live forever? I think
:03:41. > :03:44.I would do it myself. If there is a chance to survive, might as well
:03:45. > :03:49.give it a shot. I think I am here for now and I can't imagine coming
:03:50. > :03:53.back later. There is nothing particularly wrong with it. If you
:03:54. > :03:57.can do that and that is what you want to do, why not? Imagine coming
:03:58. > :04:01.back and literally not knowing everybody and the way the world is
:04:02. > :04:06.so fast pace now, in a year we won't recognise it. Are we playing God?
:04:07. > :04:11.Potentially but if you have lost your child very young, you would
:04:12. > :04:16.want to hope there is a possibility. Are we messing with God and doing
:04:17. > :04:22.his work? Yet, because when you are dead, you are dead and you can go to
:04:23. > :04:26.eternity. She was 14 years of age and maybe she thought he could have
:04:27. > :04:30.another chance at life. Now she has left her body, this is just a space
:04:31. > :04:34.suit with a sell by date on it. It would be cool to come back and see
:04:35. > :04:39.how life has changed but it is hard because you are stuck in a time zone
:04:40. > :04:40.and your own believes that might not fit the beliefs of society in 100
:04:41. > :04:43.years. So is it ethical to freeze
:04:44. > :04:48.bodies for future life? Joining us for this debate
:04:49. > :04:50.from our Oxford studio is Dr Anders Sandberg,
:04:51. > :04:52.research fellow at the Future Dr Sandberg, you're
:04:53. > :04:55.an expert in this area. Can you briefly explain how this
:04:56. > :05:07.process is supposed to work? Cryonics suspension starts as soon
:05:08. > :05:13.as possible after death has been pronounced. You cool down the body
:05:14. > :05:15.using ice, you circulate the blood, you add protectant is to prevent ice
:05:16. > :05:22.crystals forming and disrupting the tissue. Then you gradually lower the
:05:23. > :05:28.temperature until no decay and changes happen, and then you store
:05:29. > :05:32.the body in liquid nitrogen. OK. So when the body is brought back, I
:05:33. > :05:34.suppose this is where the controversy is. Even now the
:05:35. > :05:39.President of an American facility where this teenager has been frozen
:05:40. > :05:43.has said that patients might wake up as clones with no memories. There is
:05:44. > :05:47.no evidence yet of how you wake up and how healthy the body and the
:05:48. > :05:55.mind would be. By Alex cannot make any guarantees like that. We need --
:05:56. > :05:59.cryonics cannot make any guarantees like that and we need to develop the
:06:00. > :06:03.science. That might be decades in the future. But they have plenty of
:06:04. > :06:07.time. They can afford to wait because nothing is happening to
:06:08. > :06:12.them. Are you planning to do this after your death? I am signed up to
:06:13. > :06:17.it. I think there is a low chance, better than 1%, but that makes it
:06:18. > :06:21.rational for me. How would you imagine your future? I am waking up
:06:22. > :06:32.surrounded by people gleeful to find a scientist from the 21st century,
:06:33. > :06:36.ready to point out I was wrong. And I might find my nephews and nieces.
:06:37. > :06:42.Thank you. When I asked the doctor if he would do it, you grasped when
:06:43. > :06:46.he said yes. He is obviously a very clever man but he is not behaving in
:06:47. > :06:54.a clever way. It is a terrible thing. Brandon Stone's monster, I
:06:55. > :06:57.was scared of that as a child. I loved Star Trek. This sort of stuff
:06:58. > :07:00.is science fiction and that is where it should stay because there is no
:07:01. > :07:04.guarantee. 1% chance? That little girl was exploited and her parents
:07:05. > :07:07.and family have been exploited because they think there is a chance
:07:08. > :07:14.that you might come back, like Lazarus from the dead. Lazarus was
:07:15. > :07:19.for the Bible. We have just got to accept that we come into life and we
:07:20. > :07:22.go out. Death follows life. But do you understand a 14-year-old girl
:07:23. > :07:27.diagnosed with cancer who died who thought you should not die yet and
:07:28. > :07:30.that 1% chance, why not give somebody hope? Of course it is
:07:31. > :07:34.heartbreaking. You could not help but be moved by that letter. It
:07:35. > :07:39.might have been far better for that girl to do the wish list and try and
:07:40. > :07:45.carry out some of those wishes before death. It would have been
:07:46. > :07:49.better if her parents had talked to her at length, and I know there was
:07:50. > :07:53.disruption between the parents, saying that you are going to die and
:07:54. > :07:56.one day you might see mummy and daddy in a nicer place, not in a
:07:57. > :08:02.freezer in the United States which she is sharing with four other
:08:03. > :08:07.bodies. So you would put the idea of heaven over the chance of your body
:08:08. > :08:12.coming back to life? The remote possibility. I would. And even if we
:08:13. > :08:16.can achieve it, we shouldn't. You have investigated cryonics around
:08:17. > :08:23.the world and what was your response to this story? I was very moved by
:08:24. > :08:29.the response to this letter. It was heartbreaking to read. I think that
:08:30. > :08:34.the judge ruled in the correct way. I think that was the only decision
:08:35. > :08:44.that could be made. The girl has the right to decide what happens to her
:08:45. > :08:46.body after she dies. There is no certainty about this. The
:08:47. > :08:53.facilities, the cryonics organisation involved, they are very
:08:54. > :09:00.clear when they point out to patients that it is an experiment. I
:09:01. > :09:04.don't know what more they can do. I take your point, it is very
:09:05. > :09:09.delicate. She is 14. What does she know? I think we need to get real.
:09:10. > :09:13.Technology is changing our lives in so many ways. A whole generation is
:09:14. > :09:17.thinking about not just competing with automation machines but
:09:18. > :09:20.augmenting their capacity and potential with artificial
:09:21. > :09:24.intelligence. Given the desire to be resuscitated and come back from the
:09:25. > :09:28.dead, reflected in so many faiths, it is a fundamental human desire, so
:09:29. > :09:31.I don't think it is oppressing people want to use technology to do
:09:32. > :09:35.it. I have a more practical approach. My main concern about this
:09:36. > :09:38.is that technology is moving at an incredible speed but I don't think
:09:39. > :09:43.that the courts are really keeping up with it. One of the big debates
:09:44. > :09:47.about this girl was that scientists are complaining that the judges in
:09:48. > :09:49.allowing her wish did not go into the merits of whether the science
:09:50. > :09:54.woodwork and whether she would be brought back. Judges are not
:09:55. > :09:59.equipped to do that. There are no regulations around this and it is a
:10:00. > :10:02.completely grey space. We are facing very rapid change completely
:10:03. > :10:05.unprepared and there will be many more people who will be bringing up
:10:06. > :10:09.these ethical issues and we are not equipped to deal with them and that
:10:10. > :10:12.is something we need. The judge made it very clear that he was not
:10:13. > :10:17.deciding on science but on the future of the girl. You want to pick
:10:18. > :10:23.up on that? We are living in a world where they are... Things are
:10:24. > :10:27.changing very rapidly. There is a growing consensus of scientists who
:10:28. > :10:32.believe that ageing is potentially curable. There are also discussions
:10:33. > :10:36.around the first person to live to 1000 years old might already have
:10:37. > :10:42.been born. It sounds like the stuff of science fiction to me but there
:10:43. > :10:45.are very serious scientists, neuroscientists, talking about this.
:10:46. > :10:51.What is your opinion on this? Should we be in bracing the science? My
:10:52. > :10:55.view is that the girl should have been given all the different things
:10:56. > :10:59.available in order to make their own decision, an informed decision and
:11:00. > :11:05.as a Hindu we believe in reincarnation. We would say that
:11:06. > :11:10.when her body died, the sole moved on and it may have been reincarnated
:11:11. > :11:15.anyway, so to preserve the body and come back to the same body, for me
:11:16. > :11:20.it doesn't make sense. But for her, it should have been an informed
:11:21. > :11:24.decision, and I certainly wouldn't want to talk anybody out of it just
:11:25. > :11:29.to say that it should be an informed decision. This is the question,
:11:30. > :11:40.Doctor? How much information is given? Surely cryogenics is playing
:11:41. > :11:43.on people's emotions almost? When you have a terminal condition you
:11:44. > :11:47.are willing to try almost everything. It is worth noting that
:11:48. > :11:51.cryonics is not terribly popular despite having been around for 40
:11:52. > :11:55.years and I think you can make an informed choice. The girl here seem
:11:56. > :12:02.to know what was going on and it was a chance, not a certainty. It is not
:12:03. > :12:08.cheap, is it? The figure bandied around has been ?37,000 but it could
:12:09. > :12:12.cost as much as ?100,000. Cryogenics is certainly benefiting from these
:12:13. > :12:16.emotional times, shall we say? To some extent but if you want to be
:12:17. > :12:20.rich you probably shouldn't start a cryonics company. They have been
:12:21. > :12:25.around for a long time and they haven't got very large. People
:12:26. > :12:29.prefer to eat healthy food, rather than filling out forms and going
:12:30. > :12:32.through bureaucracy, which puts people off. Cryonics is about facing
:12:33. > :12:38.death. You have got to recognise that I am a biological being and I
:12:39. > :12:42.will die someday. Even with cryonics, sooner or later your luck
:12:43. > :12:47.will run out. This is a way of staying in the game longer. I always
:12:48. > :12:50.despair that we have incredibly scientific people with great brains
:12:51. > :12:54.advancing the technology. Why not deploy their incredible intellectual
:12:55. > :12:57.skills to trying to find a cure to the thing that kills that
:12:58. > :13:02.14-year-old rather than keeping a body alive at 200 years? The counter
:13:03. > :13:09.that to that is that if you keep the body, which can come back in 200
:13:10. > :13:13.years, by then that might be yours for this cancer, once science
:13:14. > :13:17.catches up, so why not take advantage? And does she come back
:13:18. > :13:21.with the brain of a 14-year-old and what state is her body in and what
:13:22. > :13:26.is the state of the cells? They could be badly damaged. It is very
:13:27. > :13:29.dubious science at best. That is why I don't think it is bad to accuse
:13:30. > :13:37.the scientists of exploiting anybody. She is not being promised
:13:38. > :13:42.to wake up in this condition on this day with memories. They are just
:13:43. > :13:44.promising a chance, maybe a 1% chance. For somebody facing death,
:13:45. > :13:48.they are willing to spend that money just to have that chance. But coming
:13:49. > :13:52.back to money there are real questions to ask about the
:13:53. > :13:57.inequality around this. We have seen dystopian movies where if you are
:13:58. > :14:01.wealthy you can live forever and have a limited life experiences and
:14:02. > :14:05.if you are poor you live in a ghetto that is overcrowded and medieval.
:14:06. > :14:08.The idea that this is something you can buy if you have enough money and
:14:09. > :14:12.you can come back and be cured and be immortal but if you are poor you
:14:13. > :14:15.have no control over how and where you die, and it feels like we are
:14:16. > :14:22.moving closer to that future that is worrying. It is an expense and it is
:14:23. > :14:27.a substantial amount of money. Just to point out, the cryonics
:14:28. > :14:31.organisations, the two main ones in America and the institute where the
:14:32. > :14:38.girl is preserved, they are not-for-profit organisations. They
:14:39. > :14:42.actually try, from my understanding, to offer cryonics at the most
:14:43. > :14:46.affordable price that they can. A lot of people that I have met pay
:14:47. > :14:52.for it through a life insurance policy. They are not having to stump
:14:53. > :14:56.up that feat in one amount. They are paying into a life-insurance policy
:14:57. > :14:57.at if you sign up to it when you are younger, it is less money and it
:14:58. > :15:09.will pay out when you die. Bharti, what are the religious
:15:10. > :15:13.implications of this? If we have a belief in reincarnation, where is
:15:14. > :15:16.the need to preserve the body? And if you don't have that belief? If
:15:17. > :15:21.you don't have, one of the things that needs to be done is to give
:15:22. > :15:24.people an opportunity to explore the different faiths and make a decision
:15:25. > :15:29.based on their knowledge rather than just going for something which
:15:30. > :15:34.preserves your body as it is. I do agree that it may not be in that
:15:35. > :15:40.pristine condition that it was preserved in. You don't know how
:15:41. > :15:44.long it's going to be there. What if you are someone who doesn't have
:15:45. > :15:48.faith? Well, it is the same thing. Should we all be more accepting of
:15:49. > :15:55.death? I do think that we are not aware of what death is and we don't
:15:56. > :15:59.accept that that is the end of life. We are too far away from death. We
:16:00. > :16:03.don't know it enough and it's something that frightens people,
:16:04. > :16:07.whereas it should be a part of life. Let's find out what you've been
:16:08. > :16:14.saying. You've been sending is us your thoughts on this. Interesting
:16:15. > :16:17.this one. A real mixed bag. A lot of people aren't questioning the
:16:18. > :16:21.ethical side but whether it's a waste of money, and it is your own
:16:22. > :17:07.body and you should be allowed to do what you want to do. For example:
:17:08. > :17:15.More hope in this than religion. Indeed. Dr Sandberg, what do you
:17:16. > :17:20.make of the idea of waking up with no friends, no family, in a
:17:21. > :17:26.different world? It would be sad, but then again maybe your friends
:17:27. > :17:28.and family could also sign up. Cryonics patients are refugees, they
:17:29. > :17:32.cannot survive here. Their only chance is to make a very daring
:17:33. > :17:37.journey into the future, which might not welcome them. However, it is
:17:38. > :17:40.worth do, because it's better than being dead. Bharti, one comment
:17:41. > :17:45.there said death is need to be accepted. That's right. It is a
:17:46. > :17:50.process. You are born, you live, you die, and then in my belief your soul
:17:51. > :17:56.is reincarnated in another body and you live again, if you like. That is
:17:57. > :18:00.not accepted. There are a lot of people, a lot of young people and
:18:01. > :18:05.older people who've never had to face a close death. So they are
:18:06. > :18:09.afraid of it, whereas it should be a part of your life journey. It is
:18:10. > :18:14.interfering with nature isn't it in the As someone said, interfere at
:18:15. > :18:25.your peril. I agree, big mistake, and a waste of money. I agree with
:18:26. > :18:31.that as well. My cryonicist would refer to it as being an ambulance of
:18:32. > :18:36.the future, that this isn't any different to having a heart bypass
:18:37. > :18:38.or any other life-saving medical intervention, it is using the
:18:39. > :18:45.medical technology of the future rather than what's available today.
:18:46. > :18:53.It is a way of getting there. So some don't see that conflict between
:18:54. > :18:59.religion and cryonics, they are extending their life, this physical
:19:00. > :19:03.life that we know that exists now, and the religious afterlife is
:19:04. > :19:07.something that is just being pushed back, perhaps. I think that we could
:19:08. > :19:11.talk about this for a long time. Thank you very much panel for your
:19:12. > :19:14.thoughts on that one. And thank you four your thoughts. Do keep them
:19:15. > :19:15.coming in. Still to come on Sunday Morning
:19:16. > :19:18.Live: London's Mayor Sadiq Khan on his campaign to bring Britain's
:19:19. > :19:27.communities closer together. There's a school of thought that
:19:28. > :19:30.says it is not possible, for example, to have mainstream Muslims
:19:31. > :19:32.being compatible with western liberal values. I think that's
:19:33. > :19:37.nonsense. Now it's time to meet a bit
:19:38. > :19:40.of a television legend. Len Goodman, the cheeky chappie
:19:41. > :19:42.and master of the one-liner, is head judge on the BBC's
:19:43. > :19:45.Strictly Come Dancing. Len's announced he's
:19:46. > :19:47.leaving the show this year. So I went to see him to get some
:19:48. > :19:51.reflections on his life in front Having taken part in Strictly,
:19:52. > :19:54.I know all too well So it was a bit of a relief
:19:55. > :19:59.to meet him without He wasn't going be marking me on
:20:00. > :20:20.style and my non-fancy footwork! Len? It was like a cowpat on
:20:21. > :20:26.Countryfile. Hot and steamy! CHEERING. Let's go back to when
:20:27. > :20:32.dancing first started in your life. I was 21. I'm sitting in a pub and I
:20:33. > :20:37.said to one of my mates, shall we go to the pictures tomorrow night? He
:20:38. > :20:43.said, no, it's Wednesday, I go ballroom dancing. I said, you don't!
:20:44. > :20:49.He said, why. And he had never told you this before? No, a secret.
:20:50. > :20:53.Ballroom? Why? Len, there's about four boys and there's about 40
:20:54. > :20:58.girls. I said, I'm coming. So there I was and I got cracking on with it
:20:59. > :21:05.and then started teaching. Starting judging. And so it went. And then 50
:21:06. > :21:10.years later I got asked to do Strictly. Please welcome, the
:21:11. > :21:17.judges. CHEERING. Len Goodman...
:21:18. > :21:24.You floated across that floor like butter on a hot crumpet.
:21:25. > :21:31.CHEERING. How do you explain Strictly's success? What's the magic
:21:32. > :21:35.formula? It is like an old-fashioned variety show, with dancers, singers,
:21:36. > :21:40.music, a little bit of comedy going on. Plus there is an edge, because
:21:41. > :21:47.it's competitive. And what is wonderful about it is you can see
:21:48. > :21:51.the celebrities, how hard they work. People see that you give up
:21:52. > :22:01.everything just to learn that one dance for that week.
:22:02. > :22:16.Let's talk about the controversy surrounding Strictly. Every year it
:22:17. > :22:21.happens, the argument about whether should it be a dance competition, or
:22:22. > :22:27.should it be an entertainment show? We have to judge purely be our
:22:28. > :22:31.brains purely with our brains. The viewers, they want to be
:22:32. > :22:36.entertained, and quite rightly so, so they can judge with their hearts.
:22:37. > :22:42.But I think also the public like justice. So there does come a point,
:22:43. > :22:46.and there has in the past, when they realise that really good dancers are
:22:47. > :22:50.going and lesser dancers are staying. I think that's when they
:22:51. > :22:56.say, oh, no, enough is enough. You've got a great turn of phrase,
:22:57. > :23:01.Len. That's my granddad. My granddad was always coming out with things.
:23:02. > :23:05.One of hisisation, and it is true today, you can't help how your mum
:23:06. > :23:09.put your hat on, and so it is. You can't help you you were brought up
:23:10. > :23:15.and that's how you become. When I used to teach dancing, I use to say,
:23:16. > :23:20.no, you can't do this, it's all sizzle and no sausage, all
:23:21. > :23:24.performance and no meat to it. It wasisation like that I use on
:23:25. > :23:30.Strictly. The trouble is I'm a cup of tea in a world of skinny lattes.
:23:31. > :23:35.What was your code to life, having a good life? When you are young, love
:23:36. > :23:41.your parents, because they love you. As they get older the roles reverse.
:23:42. > :23:46.My family comes first. My wife, Sue, my son, James. His partner, Sophie.
:23:47. > :23:50.Little Alice, my first granddaughter. These are the most
:23:51. > :23:54.important people to me. More important than golf! So would it be
:23:55. > :23:58.unfair to describe you as a man of favourite then? No, I think,
:23:59. > :24:02.especially as you get older, because you are getting nearer and nearer
:24:03. > :24:10.and you don't want to take any chances do you really? My...
:24:11. > :24:17.Jehovah's Witnesses with, so they used to chat to me as a little boy,
:24:18. > :24:25.little Lenny, about God. That's always been in my head and they
:24:26. > :24:31.convinced me to a large degree that there must be something more than
:24:32. > :24:36.just you come on this earth, you live your four score years and ten,
:24:37. > :24:41.or whatever it is, and you pop your catalogues and that's it. Pop your
:24:42. > :24:48.clogs and that's it. You love a good tune. I do. And you have put
:24:49. > :24:53.together Crooners and Swooners. When I look at this CD am I seeing the
:24:54. > :24:58.soundtrack to your life? You are. When I was a little kid my dad used
:24:59. > :25:04.to put me in the front room and put on the radio gram, putting on
:25:05. > :25:09.Sinatra and Bing Crosby and fats Waller, so I grew one all that sort
:25:10. > :25:13.of music in my head and loving it. You hit a couple of lines and
:25:14. > :25:18.positions which are brilliant. Then you seemed to lose focus.
:25:19. > :25:21.I think you get nervous. I have still got nerves to battle and I
:25:22. > :25:26.will. I want to take you back a few weeks. It was disaster. What
:25:27. > :25:30.happened? I got voted out of Strictly. What a liberty! Too early,
:25:31. > :25:36.right? It's always too early for everyone. Of course it is. Think
:25:37. > :25:41.back. Yeah. I got my best score from you that week. Can you remember what
:25:42. > :25:49.it was? I'm pretty sure it was, I think it was more than a six and
:25:50. > :25:55.less than an 8. I'm going to say it, it was a Severn! I'm sorry I didn't
:25:56. > :26:00.have time to you've give you a 10 from Len, but it is what it is. It's
:26:01. > :26:07.in my dreams. Such a pleasure. The pleasure's mine. I have enjoyed it.
:26:08. > :26:09.Lovely chat. I'm going to put it into text talk. GRH! Len Goodman
:26:10. > :26:13.there. He really is a lovely guy. Now let's move
:26:14. > :26:15.on to our next debate. The number of people behind bars
:26:16. > :26:18.in Britain is at a record level. This week, up to 10,000 prison
:26:19. > :26:20.officers in England and Wales walked out in protest,
:26:21. > :26:23.despite the fact they're legally not They say they're worried
:26:24. > :26:26.about what they call the volatile state of jails
:26:27. > :26:30.and fears of violence. The Ministry of Justice says it's
:26:31. > :26:33.committed to safety and is investing extra money in
:26:34. > :26:36.recruiting more staff. But the Chief Inspector of Prisons
:26:37. > :26:38.claimed this week there are hundreds of people in prison
:26:39. > :26:41.who shouldn't be there. So should we keep fewer
:26:42. > :26:45.people in prisons? Joining the panel now are writer
:26:46. > :26:48.and critic Alexander Boot and interfaith activist and founder
:26:49. > :26:50.of the Active Change Also joining us down
:26:51. > :26:57.the line is Eric Allison, prison correspondent
:26:58. > :26:59.for the Guardian, who has had his own personal experience
:27:00. > :27:08.of serving time in prison. Eric, thank you for joining us.
:27:09. > :27:14.Bearing in mind your experience as a prisoner, do you think there are too
:27:15. > :27:20.many people in prison? Can I say, I first went into custody in 1957.
:27:21. > :27:24.I've been a student of the system ever since. While I was in and out
:27:25. > :27:28.of the system and since I've been writing for the Guardian. I can say
:27:29. > :27:32.with absolute certainty the prison system now is in a far worse state
:27:33. > :27:42.than at any time since I've known it. If I give you a quick snapshot,
:27:43. > :27:46.we lock up more people in England and Wales than any country in
:27:47. > :27:48.Western Europe. The prison population has doubled since 1993.
:27:49. > :27:55.The number of staff has been reduced by a third. This has created
:27:56. > :28:01.turmoil. In the last year, there were six apparent prison on prisoner
:28:02. > :28:08.homicides. There were over 2,000 serious prisoner on prisoner
:28:09. > :28:13.assaults, and over 600 prisoner on staff assaults. And there was 32,000
:28:14. > :28:18.recorded incidents of self harm. And the statistics there that you've
:28:19. > :28:23.been quoting very much frightening. Alexander, do you think this is an
:28:24. > :28:32.accurate assessment, overall the statistics are there, but an
:28:33. > :28:36.accurate assessment what prisons are like in the UK? I'm not sure I like
:28:37. > :28:42.the question of whether we put too many or too few people in jail.
:28:43. > :28:48.There is no such thing as too many or too few, only how many does it
:28:49. > :28:53.take for the state to perform one of its legitimate function which is is
:28:54. > :29:01.protecting Her Majesty's subjects from internal crime and external
:29:02. > :29:07.enemies. If it takes building more prisons and then filling them to the
:29:08. > :29:11.gunwales, so be it. Or on alternative system? Or alternatively
:29:12. > :29:16.reduce the amount of crime, because Britain, yes it has the highest
:29:17. > :29:19.prison population in Western Europe, per capita, but it has by far the
:29:20. > :29:27.highest rate of violent crime this Europe, so I have to see a causal
:29:28. > :29:32.relationship there, the more crime we have, the more prisoners we will
:29:33. > :29:34.have. If that particular correlation was distorted, justice isn't being
:29:35. > :29:42.done. As a barrister, you have worked with
:29:43. > :29:47.prisoners and not all prisoners are therefore violent crimes either.
:29:48. > :29:54.Your view on this and the conditions they are facing, what is your
:29:55. > :29:58.attitude? I disagree with that. It is much too simplistic. There are
:29:59. > :30:02.many people in prison who shouldn't be and it is well documented that we
:30:03. > :30:05.lock up people for minor, non-violent offences, even though
:30:06. > :30:09.spending time in prison is likely to make them more violent and more
:30:10. > :30:14.likely to commit serious offences. If they are there for a long period
:30:15. > :30:21.of time? Short prison services are the worst possible sentence for
:30:22. > :30:23.people because it removes the possibility of rehabilitating and it
:30:24. > :30:26.doesn't prevent them committing crime because of crimes are
:30:27. > :30:30.committed for reasons of poverty and struggling with everyday life. We
:30:31. > :30:34.are locking up too many people. To pick up on that point, is that the
:30:35. > :30:38.issue, the fact they are not rehabilitated effectively in prison?
:30:39. > :30:45.Rather than it being wrong to people up for committing crimes? There are
:30:46. > :30:48.huge deficiencies in rehabilitation in prisons and I don't think that is
:30:49. > :30:50.party political because I was working in prisons under the Labour
:30:51. > :30:55.government and even then there was this narrative that giving
:30:56. > :31:00.opportunities to prisoners is going soft which is insane because as a
:31:01. > :31:03.society we pay the price will not debilitating people. I have been
:31:04. > :31:07.into prisons where the governor is frustrated because he has got to
:31:08. > :31:10.build extra cells in his education centre, the place where you are
:31:11. > :31:14.supposed to be teaching many of these people. Many are literate,
:31:15. > :31:17.which is also criminal, that they have been through the school system
:31:18. > :31:19.and cannot read and write and prison is where they could learn, but
:31:20. > :31:33.because of overcrowding those spaces are used to imprison more
:31:34. > :31:36.people and when they come out they have not been given any greater
:31:37. > :31:39.opportunities. I will come to your second point in a moment but I would
:31:40. > :31:41.like your reaction as well. We are asking whether we should send fewer
:31:42. > :31:44.people to prison but we also talking about the effectiveness of prison.
:31:45. > :31:46.Exactly. We should send fewer people to prison. Reoffending has become a
:31:47. > :31:49.huge problem. The majority of people are going back into the prison
:31:50. > :31:54.system and they are the young men and women who are reoffending,
:31:55. > :31:57.because rehabilitation and other initiatives are not supported enough
:31:58. > :32:01.to prevent reoffending from happening in the first place. We
:32:02. > :32:05.know the government has pumped a lot of money into reduction of
:32:06. > :32:09.reoffending but it hasn't worked, and they are pumping it in again to
:32:10. > :32:12.the same institutions that have failed. Money is pumped into it but
:32:13. > :32:17.we know that the institutions that are being used to reduce reoffending
:32:18. > :32:20.are not being successful. Why? Because it hasn't been taken
:32:21. > :32:29.seriously by the institutions that are supposed to be delivering it.
:32:30. > :32:32.The main issue within the prisons is that we know we can mental people
:32:33. > :32:36.through the prison system when they are about to leave which will limit
:32:37. > :32:44.the chance of them coming back in again. -- mentor. And the Justice
:32:45. > :32:47.Secretary has said that mentoring will be part of this new plan. You
:32:48. > :32:52.think we should send fewer people to prison. I think some people
:32:53. > :32:56.shouldn't be there. You certainly shouldn't be there if you haven't
:32:57. > :32:59.paid fines, haven't paid your TV licence. Successive Tory Home
:33:00. > :33:04.secretaries have said they will solve the foreign prisoner problem.
:33:05. > :33:07.There are 11,000 foreign prisoners in this country and maybe we could
:33:08. > :33:11.send them back to their own countries. I was talking to Ann
:33:12. > :33:15.Widdecombe about the big problem here, who was prisons minister under
:33:16. > :33:19.John Major, and some prisoners are in their cells for 24 hours a day
:33:20. > :33:22.which is barbaric. They should be out everyday learning, learning to
:33:23. > :33:26.read and write because of the problems of illiteracy in prisons,
:33:27. > :33:30.or employed in a business which should be run like a business with
:33:31. > :33:36.proper check going on. The big problem is there are too many of
:33:37. > :33:46.them. -- profit share going on. And there is a picture of prisoners on
:33:47. > :33:50.the Daily Mail eating takeaway fish and chips, taking pictures on the
:33:51. > :33:57.mobile phones, bringing in drugs in drones with the connivance of prison
:33:58. > :34:02.officers. Sentences were created by the criminal justice act were used
:34:03. > :34:08.from April 2005, designed to extend the term for a prisoner if they were
:34:09. > :34:13.deemed to be unsafe or society upon relief. What is your idea on that? I
:34:14. > :34:16.am not I like the idea, to be perfectly honest. I do think our
:34:17. > :34:20.judges pass sentences that are way too lenient to begin with. If they
:34:21. > :34:28.weren't, there would be no need for this. Last year alone something like
:34:29. > :34:35.558 sentences were toughened up on appeal. I think if a person is
:34:36. > :34:41.sentenced to a certain term in prison, and services term, and pays,
:34:42. > :34:48.as it were, the debt to society, I think he should be released. Even if
:34:49. > :34:52.they could endanger the public? Isn't that the point of prison, that
:34:53. > :34:57.you rehabilitate? There would be other ways of controlling that.
:34:58. > :35:01.Sentencing is not a science. It is very difficult to get it right. The
:35:02. > :35:04.press often talk about lenient sentences and there are lots of
:35:05. > :35:11.prisoners who get their sentences reduced on appeal when judges get it
:35:12. > :35:14.wrong. I understand the concept of the IPP, where you review if a
:35:15. > :35:17.prisoner is safe to be released into society, but to have a system like
:35:18. > :35:21.that you need to have functional prisons. People are being sent to
:35:22. > :35:24.prison and they are not able to get on any of the rehabilitation courses
:35:25. > :35:27.that would make them eligible for release. You are stuck in an
:35:28. > :35:31.Orwellian nightmare where you can't prove that you are able to be
:35:32. > :35:37.released because the courses are not available, there are no resources,
:35:38. > :35:40.you are in yourself and for hours a day, and you cannot prove it or get
:35:41. > :35:42.released, so you stay in prison indefinitely. There are people who
:35:43. > :35:47.have stayed eight to ten years longer than their initial sentence
:35:48. > :35:53.because they could not prove they were ready to be released. I agree
:35:54. > :35:57.with you in general. This is overemphasised. In descending order
:35:58. > :36:06.of priority the function of prison is to punish wrongdoing, to deter
:36:07. > :36:11.subsequent wrongdoing, and rehabilitation. That comes very way
:36:12. > :36:15.down on the list. We will come to you in a moment. Eric you have been
:36:16. > :36:19.shaking your head listening to this discussion. The reaction? There are
:36:20. > :36:25.so many things I can't believe here. Firstly that rehabilitation is low
:36:26. > :36:31.down the order. Almost half of adult prisoners who are least offence
:36:32. > :36:36.within 12 months. Over two thirds of young offenders under 18 reoffend
:36:37. > :36:40.within 12 months. By the way, they are only the people caught
:36:41. > :36:46.reoffending, so the figure is even higher. Lenient sentences? No. We
:36:47. > :36:49.lock up more people than any other country in Europe and we lock them
:36:50. > :36:54.up for longer. We have seen the failure. What we are doing at the
:36:55. > :36:59.moment is just putting people in warehouses. That used to be the case
:37:00. > :37:02.for the local prisons, they were known as warehouses when nothing was
:37:03. > :37:08.done. But I come across training prisons now, called training
:37:09. > :37:13.prisons, where people are locked up 22 hours a day. What are they
:37:14. > :37:18.training for? Idleness? Daytime television critics? Look at the cost
:37:19. > :37:23.of what we are doing, the cost of this failure. The average cost of
:37:24. > :37:27.keeping a person in prison is ?36,000 a year. When you move up to
:37:28. > :37:31.young offenders it is nearly ?70,000. When you come to secure
:37:32. > :37:37.training centres which are run by private companies, by the way, we
:37:38. > :37:44.are paying private companies ?163,000 per year per child per
:37:45. > :37:48.place. ?163,000 per year to a private company. Again we come back
:37:49. > :37:53.to the people in prison. The vast majority of people in prison are
:37:54. > :37:57.doing short sentences. They are mainly non-violent, by the way. They
:37:58. > :38:04.are nuisances rather than a danger. We call it the churn, the revolving
:38:05. > :38:10.door. They get arrested, they serve a short sentence and they reoffend.
:38:11. > :38:13.I am just going to reiterate what I said before. It is the reduction of
:38:14. > :38:20.reoffending that needs to be emphasised again. Don't forget, we
:38:21. > :38:25.have people who are threats to national security and the public and
:38:26. > :38:29.they are in prison and no matter what happens, the rehabilitation
:38:30. > :38:35.isn't working. So where do you put them, Andrew? I am not sure. If the
:38:36. > :38:39.answer to build more prisons? I don't know. When we talk about
:38:40. > :38:44.prisons, we forget about the victims. Every crime has a victim,
:38:45. > :38:49.even if it is forgetting your TV licence. Every crime has a victim.
:38:50. > :38:52.When victims seek some prisoners living it up behind bars, that is
:38:53. > :38:58.not what they thought the deal would be. There should be an element of
:38:59. > :39:01.punishment as well. I do agree that we are not doing enough to
:39:02. > :39:05.rehabilitate these guys. Let's hear what you have been thinking about
:39:06. > :39:09.this discussion. Thank you for your texts and tweets. In general people
:39:10. > :39:11.are in support of the prison system that they are concerned about
:39:12. > :39:14.whether enough rehabilitation is going on. Michael Mates the same
:39:15. > :39:56.point as Andrew on the panel made. This is what people get angry about.
:39:57. > :40:00.You mentioned those images of people living in almost luxury with pool
:40:01. > :40:03.tables and fish and chips. I wish everybody could go into a prison and
:40:04. > :40:08.see what it is like. The idea that prisoners are living it up in a lap
:40:09. > :40:13.of luxury, I have never seen it. I have been into prisons so many
:40:14. > :40:16.times. The reality of prison is you are incarcerated, locked up with no
:40:17. > :40:23.freedom, you can't see who you want to see or go where you want to go.
:40:24. > :40:25.That is the essential nature of the punishment and what they are
:40:26. > :40:29.sentenced to. They're not sentenced to additional forms of torture
:40:30. > :40:34.depending on the resources. You have got to remember that they are in
:40:35. > :40:39.here to serve their time. Why are they all on their mobile phones
:40:40. > :40:43.doing drug deals? That is not right. You are painting a picture and it is
:40:44. > :40:48.not like that. I saw the photographs this week. Are you saying the isn't
:40:49. > :40:52.a drugs problem in prisons? I don't see mobile phones when I go in. I'm
:40:53. > :40:59.not saying it isn't happening. It is. I would imagine as a victim of
:41:00. > :41:01.crime you want the person who offended against you released no
:41:02. > :41:05.longer a threat than a danger which would be far greater concern than
:41:06. > :41:09.what they are eating. In theory I would love to continue this
:41:10. > :41:16.conversation but the reality of my life is that time is always against
:41:17. > :41:17.us. I have got to close this discussion. Thank you so much and
:41:18. > :41:21.please keep your comments coming in. The Mayor of London Sadiq Khan this
:41:22. > :41:24.week called for an end to the politics of fear and division
:41:25. > :41:26.following the Brexit campaign here and the American
:41:27. > :41:28.presidential elections. At an international conference
:41:29. > :41:30.in the capital, he warned that more integration of communities in the UK
:41:31. > :41:33.is vital for the future and called for the building
:41:34. > :41:35.of bridges not walls. Nikki Bedi went to meet
:41:36. > :41:46.the Mayor to find out more. Sadiq, you have called for an end to
:41:47. > :41:52.the politics of division and for greater integration in our cities.
:41:53. > :41:57.Why is that so important in your view? 2016 has seen major upheaval
:41:58. > :42:01.around the world. The decision to leave the EU, the US presidential
:42:02. > :42:05.elections, divisive political forces rising across the world and we have
:42:06. > :42:12.got the choice. We can either build bridges or build walls. I think the
:42:13. > :42:16.reality is that diversity is a strength that diversity is not the
:42:17. > :42:20.same as integration. In terms of what Donald Trump has been talking
:42:21. > :42:26.about, he wants to build a wall to keep out illegal Mexican immigrants.
:42:27. > :42:30.He also wants to clamp down on Muslims entering the country. Do you
:42:31. > :42:34.think in any way that will fold into our lifestyles and decision-making?
:42:35. > :42:38.There is a school of thought that says it is not possible for example
:42:39. > :42:42.to have mainstream Muslim is compatible with western liberal
:42:43. > :42:46.values. That is nonsense. Of course people have got genuine concerns.
:42:47. > :42:49.The inability to get your son or daughter into a good school, to get
:42:50. > :42:57.your luck on the health care he or she needs, to get decent affordable
:42:58. > :43:01.housing for your nephews and nieces. -- to get your loved one the health
:43:02. > :43:03.care they need. These are legitimate concerns but we need to address
:43:04. > :43:08.these fears rather than playing on them. There are people who believe
:43:09. > :43:13.that the Muslim communities in the UK don't integrate. Why do they feel
:43:14. > :43:17.that? We have got to grapple with these issues. If it is the case that
:43:18. > :43:20.certain parts of society are not mixing, and they are living
:43:21. > :43:24.side-by-side rather than with meaningful engagement, we have got
:43:25. > :43:27.to help them integrate. Sometimes it is basic stuff. Making sure that
:43:28. > :43:32.schools are as diverse as they can be. Making sure that housing is
:43:33. > :43:40.mixed. Helping people learn English not cutting the grounds for colleges
:43:41. > :43:42.that teach English. Helping employers train up youngsters from
:43:43. > :43:47.diverse backgrounds to have the skills for the jobs of tomorrow. How
:43:48. > :43:51.much do you think or know that your faith informs your politics? I am
:43:52. > :43:56.Muslim and I'm very proud of that but I'm not just a Muslim. I am
:43:57. > :44:03.somebody who is a Londoner, English, British, of Asian origin, Pakistani
:44:04. > :44:06.heritage, Islamic faith, I am a dad, husband, I am not the Muslim
:44:07. > :44:11.spokesperson and I am definitely not Citizen Khan! Although you made that
:44:12. > :44:22.wonderful appearance. I am looking for Mr Khan. Mr Khan? Yes, that's
:44:23. > :44:27.me. Citizen Khan at your service! Hang on, I'm the Mayor of London.
:44:28. > :44:36.Yeah, and I'm the Archbishop of Canterbury! Do something! We all
:44:37. > :44:40.have layers of our identity and it is really important that we are not
:44:41. > :44:44.embarrassed by that. What I am saying is that integration is not
:44:45. > :44:48.the same as assimilation. Citizen Khan is a fictional and very funny
:44:49. > :44:52.programme but it is not my role to be a community leader who is a
:44:53. > :44:54.Muslim politician. I am a Muslim who happens to be a politician. Thank
:44:55. > :44:56.you. Sadiq Khan, London's Mayor,
:44:57. > :44:58.with his views there, but is genuine integration
:44:59. > :45:00.achievable in the UK? We are rejoined now
:45:01. > :45:16.by Bharti Tailor, head Affua, Sadiq Khan calling for an end
:45:17. > :45:21.to the politics of division. More integration of our cities, is that
:45:22. > :45:23.possible? When I hear people saying integration has failed,
:45:24. > :45:27.multiculturalism has failed, I think you are trying to kill something
:45:28. > :45:31.that you never gave a chance to thrive. One of the things I enjoyed
:45:32. > :45:37.about the interview with Sadiq Khan is he is unpicking some of the
:45:38. > :45:42.language. If you ask people what integration means, they might
:45:43. > :45:44.struggle. We've got terms like integration, assimilation,
:45:45. > :45:50.multiculturalism, there is no consensus as to what we aspire to in
:45:51. > :45:54.our society. Do we want everybody to behave the same or are we happy to
:45:55. > :45:58.be a society where people have different identities that they are
:45:59. > :46:04.proud of. It is not about having to forget where you are from, you have
:46:05. > :46:08.to forget the cultural values that you were raised with and which you
:46:09. > :46:12.are attached to. We have to work out what you nights us and ask people to
:46:13. > :46:19.be part of that project. We haven't done that. That. We see the talk
:46:20. > :46:27.about British values this schools. Even the Government couldn't define
:46:28. > :46:33.what that is. So much termology and ideas, Andrew I wonder if in this
:46:34. > :46:36.political climate, post Brexit, post American elections, people are
:46:37. > :46:41.saying there've been protest votes, angry votes, is this the right time
:46:42. > :46:47.to push for integration? It is the best time to do it because of the
:46:48. > :46:52.problems we have seen. We may yet see Marine Le Pen win in France, the
:46:53. > :46:57.National Front. I lived in the East End of London. There's been no
:46:58. > :47:02.attempt at integration. I went into a doctor's surgery and there were 14
:47:03. > :47:05.different languages on the wall and three different interpreters in that
:47:06. > :47:10.doctor's surgery. That was 12 years ago that. Number will have
:47:11. > :47:16.multiplied. We've seen evidence of what is called the white flight. I
:47:17. > :47:21.can't bear the expression but it is number of white people thought to
:47:22. > :47:28.have left London in the last decade, 600,000. Do they feel their cultural
:47:29. > :47:33.identity is being squeezed in parts of theest evened in particular. The
:47:34. > :47:37.Tower Hamlets the overwhelming number of people are not
:47:38. > :47:41.Anglo-Saxon, they are from Bangladesh and the Asian subcontinue
:47:42. > :47:44.innocent. We should be living together harmoniously, not feeling
:47:45. > :47:51.we have to move somewhere else. Hanif? If we don't do it now, we are
:47:52. > :47:57.going to miss the boat, let's say. We've got a culture that's been
:47:58. > :48:01.created in America, the nation that's divided on immigrants and
:48:02. > :48:06.near the UK Brexit. It is all about immigrants, so if we don't create
:48:07. > :48:12.the integration strategies now which have already been there but haven't
:48:13. > :48:18.been emphasised, the NGOs, the community gait keepers have got to
:48:19. > :48:24.reinforce the integration narrative. It can be done and if we don't do it
:48:25. > :48:28.now we'll lose a generation. Bharti? What all policies have in common is
:48:29. > :48:32.they don't give enough time. A policy will be brought in and it is
:48:33. > :48:37.given ten years. If you look at communities, they take a lot longer
:48:38. > :48:40.to development one of the factors missing from any integration policy,
:48:41. > :48:45.whether it is multiculturalism or whatever it may be, it is this
:48:46. > :48:52.factor of time that is not there. Do you feel once an idea is introduced
:48:53. > :48:55.people could perhaps feel forced to integrate, uncomfortably rub along
:48:56. > :48:59.with each other rather than it be an organic process? Yes, that's exactly
:49:00. > :49:03.it. If you disappoint have enough time, you don't have time for that
:49:04. > :49:07.organic process to take place. It is not just time but resources. I was
:49:08. > :49:11.speaking to somebody who's been advising Angela Merkel's Government
:49:12. > :49:15.in Germany on integrating there, a huge influx of refugees and
:49:16. > :49:20.immigrants they have had in the last few years. They are pouring
:49:21. > :49:25.phenomenal amounts of money into communities where immigrants have
:49:26. > :49:27.moved, not just for the immigrant population but the previous
:49:28. > :49:33.population, so there are enough services is. It is about policy,
:49:34. > :49:37.services, a squeeze on housing, a shortage of school places. These are
:49:38. > :49:40.predictable, something the Government should have planned for.
:49:41. > :49:44.Instead there are competition for these resources. The people
:49:45. > :49:46.frustrated with that are project their frustration on the
:49:47. > :49:52.communities. Is there an economic side to this as well, a feeling of
:49:53. > :49:57.the haves and the have nots? If I may, it is mainly when we are going
:49:58. > :50:01.through bad times. Yes. People start to feel the pinch, see that jobs
:50:02. > :50:05.they would like to do, previously didn't want to do, have gone to
:50:06. > :50:09.somebody else. When we've got a period of wealth and everybody is
:50:10. > :50:13.happy, you won't find Tim grant problem. You won't find integration
:50:14. > :50:15.being a problem. It is when something happens or there's less
:50:16. > :50:22.resources, that's when everybody starts to feel the pinch. We know
:50:23. > :50:27.from our example of tackling extremism, we hear we need to
:50:28. > :50:31.integrate, have cohesiveness, we should be doing that all the time.
:50:32. > :50:37.At a young age, we have the youth to do it. We live side by side wouldn't
:50:38. > :50:41.being forced to integrate? It is difficult to force anybody to do
:50:42. > :50:44.anything. The pressures forced by the failure to act, just go to
:50:45. > :50:49.Rotherham, where there was the terrible problem of the sexual abuse
:50:50. > :50:53.of the young white girls seen as trashy objects by the largely
:50:54. > :50:57.Pakistani community. It was the failure of the police, the council,
:50:58. > :51:01.the social services to tackle it because they were worried about
:51:02. > :51:05.social cohesion, how white react, they would be seen as racist, so the
:51:06. > :51:10.victim there is were the white girls. So we are too politically
:51:11. > :51:14.correct and scared? Yes, it is a problem. It is true, I don't like
:51:15. > :51:19.the term political correctness, but the idea that people feel they can't
:51:20. > :51:26.speak is really dangerous. That's why some of these resentments are
:51:27. > :51:34.simmering. We need to grow out of the narrative when a Muslim commits
:51:35. > :51:39.a murder, the whole Muslim community is asked to apologise. Nobody asks a
:51:40. > :51:46.will person to apologise when it's a mass murderer or a gunman on the
:51:47. > :51:52.loose, but when it's a visible immigrant... I'm not an immigrant, I
:51:53. > :51:54.was born here and we are still regarded as immigrants and
:51:55. > :52:00.responsible for the fact that people don't want to live in certain areas
:52:01. > :52:05.because we live there. That's not a sustainable way of living in our
:52:06. > :52:10.country. Bharti? You mentioned housing and the white flight, but
:52:11. > :52:15.the more settled minority communities or immigrant communities
:52:16. > :52:19.also move out of certain areas as they get prosperous, and the people
:52:20. > :52:24.that come in are from a newer migrant community. So there is
:52:25. > :52:28.always a transfer and there is always people moving out to suburbs
:52:29. > :52:34.and more prosperous areas, because they can afford to. I'm not sure I
:52:35. > :52:37.recognise what you are talking about when you say the entire perform
:52:38. > :52:42.community is expected to apologise when there's been a murder. The only
:52:43. > :52:52.time that's an issue is when there is an incident with a terrorist link
:52:53. > :53:00.to it. Why terrorism. Jo Cox, that's not a terrorism, the He was a white
:53:01. > :53:04.extremist. This is how Muslim communities feel. A lot of this has
:53:05. > :53:08.been put on them many times. When there's been a terrorist incident,
:53:09. > :53:13.it is put on them that they have to apologise for the act of somebody
:53:14. > :53:18.else. Not acting with their faith. We have to call a terrorist a
:53:19. > :53:25.terrorist and of an Islamist. The Jo Cox case is ongoing, so we are have
:53:26. > :53:30.to avoid talking about that, without prejudicing that case. I want to go
:53:31. > :53:34.back to class. We are talking about divided cultures but what about
:53:35. > :53:39.class, the idea, Andrew, that people feel that economically they are
:53:40. > :53:42.divided now? As Bharti was saying about certain areas, people become
:53:43. > :53:46.prosperous and mover out. There is still an issue economically that
:53:47. > :53:50.people feel hard done by. They feel they are left behind. This horrible
:53:51. > :53:54.word globalisation that everybody talks about, that sweeps through the
:53:55. > :53:58.world's economy making a lot of people a lot better off. In working
:53:59. > :54:01.class disadvantaged areas where a lot of the immigrant communities
:54:02. > :54:07.live, they've been left behind. There are white people living in
:54:08. > :54:11.those areas too. Look at Canary Wharf, tenements blocks where my
:54:12. > :54:15.father was brought up in in the 1930s, a lot of those people are
:54:16. > :54:19.left behind. A great part of the imgrant community have done very
:54:20. > :54:22.well and I'm pleased for it. But the economics of recession makes this
:54:23. > :54:27.problem worse. It doesn't help that the people who make policy decisions
:54:28. > :54:31.about immigration don't live in areas that are suffering from loss
:54:32. > :54:34.of resources. People living side by side with large influxes of
:54:35. > :54:37.immigrants. That creates a feeling that the people who've the
:54:38. > :54:42.discussion don't understand their problems. That's why we see protest
:54:43. > :54:49.votes. Brexit to me was an example of that. Tommy, you have reaction to
:54:50. > :54:52.this. People are saying that immigration is unlikely and the
:54:53. > :54:56.willingness and desire isn't there. Some are saying it is possible if we
:54:57. > :55:41.learn to respect and accept each other.
:55:42. > :55:49.That's optimistic! Thank you Tommy. Hanif, there was one comment there
:55:50. > :55:53.saying it is money that divides. We were talking about the class issue,
:55:54. > :55:58.of course it is. The historically it has always been an issue. So it is
:55:59. > :56:02.money, not colour that divides? Every time something happens around
:56:03. > :56:07.the world, we can't walk away from the fact we've got conflict all
:56:08. > :56:10.around the world. Post 9/11 the dynamics changed and people's
:56:11. > :56:14.perspectives are shifting towards the negative. Look around the world,
:56:15. > :56:17.in every single western nation, it is more a Muslim terrorist thing
:56:18. > :56:21.than anything else. A lot of things need to be done. We need bring
:56:22. > :56:24.people together. We've worked with young people from different walks of
:56:25. > :56:29.life, different cultural backgrounds. We've managed to bring
:56:30. > :56:32.them together and you know what? The forged friendships work. They
:56:33. > :56:37.communicate with each other. If we can encourage that, not force it,
:56:38. > :56:40.but encourage it, we should. There was a time, Andrew, when people were
:56:41. > :56:46.upset about the Polish workers coming here. It wasn't about race or
:56:47. > :56:50.colour, but from another country, economically taking advantage of us.
:56:51. > :56:57.Pinching our jobs, driving wages down. Remember it was a Labour Prime
:56:58. > :57:01.Minister, Gordon Brown, who had the mantra British jobs for British
:57:02. > :57:07.workers and they couldn't enforce that. Bharti? Jobs is one issue.
:57:08. > :57:11.Issue. When through financial worries people turn to those that
:57:12. > :57:17.are different to them in order to blame, if you like. We also see the
:57:18. > :57:21.gen. Generational change which you referred to, the generation that are
:57:22. > :57:25.born here, have a different attitude. Their way of living also
:57:26. > :57:29.changes a little bit to perhaps what they see in the host community. When
:57:30. > :57:34.you look at the long term thing, which is what I was saying before,
:57:35. > :57:38.time also helps. The second, the third generation, they do have a
:57:39. > :57:44.different attitude. I want to pick up on the comment that Tommy has,
:57:45. > :57:49.that immigration has never worked and never will. We don't knee the
:57:50. > :57:52.nation that we live in. This has been an immigrant nation for 2,000
:57:53. > :57:56.years and we've absorbed so many waves of immigration. There were
:57:57. > :58:02.African immigrants before there were English people. That's an important
:58:03. > :58:04.point to end with. Thank you so much for your views.
:58:05. > :58:06.That's just about all from us for this week
:58:07. > :58:12.I've loved joining you every Sunday and I hope you've enjoyed
:58:13. > :58:15.We'll leave you with the work of some of the finalists
:58:16. > :58:17.of Faith Through A Lens, a photography competition designed
:58:18. > :58:19.to capture the positive effects of faith in diverse communities.
:58:20. > :58:22.From me, Naga Munchetty, and the whole Sunday Morning Live