:00:00. > :00:16.between America's police and the black community?
:00:17. > :00:29.Some of whom say the grief is now being felt by both sides. You feel
:00:30. > :00:34.loss, you feel pain! But I'm going to tell you something, and don't
:00:35. > :00:36.think this is insensitive. Welcome to the club!
:00:37. > :00:39.We ask what lessons we can learn from Dallas here in the UK.
:00:40. > :00:42.Tony Blair says the world is 'better and safer' after
:00:43. > :00:46.So, is it religion rather than politics which led to the rise
:00:47. > :00:50.Lord Grade tells us why he's launching a new watchdog to crack
:00:51. > :00:55.down on high pressure techniques by charities.
:00:56. > :01:03.There have been some bad cases that have had huge publicity, and that
:01:04. > :01:05.has got the public to ask themselves questions before they give, and
:01:06. > :01:07.that's a bad thing. And two British transgender athletes
:01:08. > :01:26.born as men could be competing Why do people think that trans women
:01:27. > :01:34.competing in women's sports will somehow break the universe?
:01:35. > :01:37.Our guests are here ready to discuss those issues and Tommy Sandhu
:01:38. > :01:42.will be sharing all your thoughts with us.
:01:43. > :01:51.It is so important that you do get in touch, and you can get in touch
:01:52. > :01:54.in many different ways. You can contact us by
:01:55. > :01:57.Facebook and Twitter - don't forget to use
:01:58. > :01:58.the hashtag #bbcsml. Standard geographic
:01:59. > :02:01.charges from landlines Texts will be charged
:02:02. > :02:08.at your standard message rate. Email us at
:02:09. > :02:15.sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk. Charlie Wolf is an American talk
:02:16. > :02:22.show host and political Professor Ben Carrington works
:02:23. > :02:27.in the sociology department Lola Adesioye is a writer and social
:02:28. > :02:35.commentator now based in New York. And Douglas Murray is an author
:02:36. > :02:55.and Associate Director You are based in Texas, and many
:02:56. > :02:59.people are asking, how did we get to a point where police officers have
:03:00. > :03:05.been targeted? How surprised are you that we are at this point now? The
:03:06. > :03:13.sad truth is that I'm not surprised. These are the sad events we saw,
:03:14. > :03:18.they were in many ways predictable. We could almost describe it as a
:03:19. > :03:22.low-grade civil war. We have such a militarisation of the police force.
:03:23. > :03:28.Partly because of changes that have taken place since 1997, especially
:03:29. > :03:33.since 2011, where local police authorities have been allowed to
:03:34. > :03:37.have weapons grade material in terms of vehicles and armaments normally
:03:38. > :03:41.reserved for the battlefield. We have had the militarisation of the
:03:42. > :03:45.police in the US, and on top of that the deep-seated issues of racial
:03:46. > :03:49.injustice and discrimination, which are bubbling to the surface. I think
:03:50. > :03:56.it is ironic in many ways that this is happening under Barack Obama's
:03:57. > :04:00.administration. I think what happened last week, and also the
:04:01. > :04:05.events before it, the deaths of two black men that led to the protests
:04:06. > :04:10.of Black Lives Matter and led to the shooting was entirely predictable.
:04:11. > :04:17.Charlie, a low-grade civil war, do you agree? I think there is major
:04:18. > :04:19.civil unrest and definitely agitators and activists trying to
:04:20. > :04:24.create this and they are doing a very good job of it through Black
:04:25. > :04:28.Lives Matter. There are good people who are concerned about the police,
:04:29. > :04:31.they have a right to march, but don't forget those police were there
:04:32. > :04:35.protecting the people that were marching to give them their right of
:04:36. > :04:40.free speech. And of course when they were getting shot at, they were
:04:41. > :04:45.protecting other police officers and the crowd. There have been a lot of
:04:46. > :04:49.comments about the Black Lives Matter campaign. President Obama on
:04:50. > :04:54.Friday said that when people say black lives matter, it doesn't mean
:04:55. > :05:01.blue limestone plateau, blue lights being police officers, it means all
:05:02. > :05:04.lives matter. The data shows black people are more vulnerable to these
:05:05. > :05:10.incidents, but this isn't a matter of comparing the value of lives.
:05:11. > :05:15.Now, and you have to be careful not to link the shooter with the Black
:05:16. > :05:20.Lives Matter movement. I don't think there is any correlation or link
:05:21. > :05:23.between the two. Black Lives Matter came about because black lives are
:05:24. > :05:29.seeming not to matter. It doesn't mean nobody else's lives matter, it
:05:30. > :05:35.means the lives of black people matter, it is really that simple. It
:05:36. > :05:40.is a shame if people take that and see it as some kind of agitating
:05:41. > :05:43.force. These are people responding to events that are happening in
:05:44. > :05:49.their time which they are not happy about and that nobody else seems to
:05:50. > :05:52.be doing anything about. Douglas, the Black Lives Matter campaign, is
:05:53. > :05:57.this a reaction because some people think black lives don't matter? And
:05:58. > :06:02.is that the case, black lives don't matter? No, obviously there have
:06:03. > :06:06.been set of incidents in recent years that have been high profile,
:06:07. > :06:11.partly because incidents can be caught on camera now, and there is a
:06:12. > :06:16.huge public and social media campaign that begins almost after
:06:17. > :06:19.every incident. Since the Black Lives Matter campaign started,
:06:20. > :06:24.obviously it stars as President Obama said, of course all lives
:06:25. > :06:29.matter but this is an equality issue. There have been people on the
:06:30. > :06:34.fringes of the Black Lives Matter groups who have gone further than
:06:35. > :06:39.that. There was a protest I think December 2014 in New York City,
:06:40. > :06:47.where some people were saying, what do we want, dead cops, when do we
:06:48. > :06:53.want it, now. The one thing I think is really important in this is there
:06:54. > :06:57.are now, on every imaginable side and issue, in America in particular,
:06:58. > :07:03.groups and spokespeople who come straight out after any incidents and
:07:04. > :07:07.politicise it and use it immediately, and say, this means
:07:08. > :07:11.that or this backs up my story. I think particularly at the moment in
:07:12. > :07:16.the US, people have to be careful about doing that, and basically
:07:17. > :07:20.similar things down. After any incidents, whether it is waiting to
:07:21. > :07:28.find out what the circumstances of somebody's arrest are, and making
:07:29. > :07:31.sure after the shooting of a policeman you don't use that,
:07:32. > :07:37.everybody has to stop politicising everything to my mind and wait for
:07:38. > :07:41.the facts. If you look at what happened with the Ferguson fact,
:07:42. > :07:45.they had made up the narrative of the Huns in the air, it turned out
:07:46. > :07:51.it was nothing like that, it was a justified shoot. There were 100 FBI
:07:52. > :07:57.agents investigating. There were days of rioting, and who suffered,
:07:58. > :08:01.the black people and businesses burned out. These were people
:08:02. > :08:04.relying on the police because the police were protecting their
:08:05. > :08:09.children from gangs, now the police were saying, I don't want to go into
:08:10. > :08:16.these neighbourhoods, I may get shot. It is ultimately hurting the
:08:17. > :08:21.black population. The thing is that it is political and its political
:08:22. > :08:26.because we are not talking about events that happened in the last two
:08:27. > :08:32.or three years. They are thinking about the entire life span of being
:08:33. > :08:35.black in America. Their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and
:08:36. > :08:39.ancestors. This isn't a few black men killed by police, they are
:08:40. > :08:43.talking about historical racial discrimination and prejudice and
:08:44. > :08:48.structural inequality, of which the killings are the epitome of that.
:08:49. > :08:54.What we are seeing, the reaction people have, is not just, OK, some
:08:55. > :08:58.black people have been killed, which is in itself traumatising and
:08:59. > :09:05.upsetting, but it is what does this represent about our country and
:09:06. > :09:09.their relationship to us? Let me bring in Leroy Logan, the chair of
:09:10. > :09:16.the Black police association charitable trust, and talk about the
:09:17. > :09:20.implications this has. You were in the police force for 40 years. We
:09:21. > :09:26.are talking about how American policing is being perceived. British
:09:27. > :09:31.policing, how does that compare with regards to working with ethnic
:09:32. > :09:33.communities? I think the basis of the Metropolitan Police was a clear
:09:34. > :09:38.understanding that you have got a working partnership with the
:09:39. > :09:46.community very closely. We are met Police service, we use a lot of
:09:47. > :09:55.departments -- whereas a lot of departments in the US are police
:09:56. > :09:58.force. We have the accountability, transparency and the external
:09:59. > :10:03.oversight, including the IPCC and various other organisations to make
:10:04. > :10:08.sure we are fit for purpose. When you see what has happened in Dallas
:10:09. > :10:12.and you see how police are being targeted, and seeing in some ways as
:10:13. > :10:17.a source of vitriol, how does it make you feel? I feel really sad,
:10:18. > :10:23.having been a police officer, and I've no officers were protecting
:10:24. > :10:27.those people. And the real irony is Dallas is one of the most
:10:28. > :10:31.progressive police departments in the US. They are working closely
:10:32. > :10:35.with the community. They are actually bringing in external
:10:36. > :10:39.oversight, they have the performance data to show their conduct and how
:10:40. > :10:44.they are improving, so they are a lot more transparent. I suppose
:10:45. > :10:48.there are other departments where this could have happened where you
:10:49. > :10:53.would think, actually I'm not surprised, but Dallas is one of the
:10:54. > :10:57.most progressive ones. It saddens me, the slaying and the ones that
:10:58. > :11:04.were injured. I think anyone would sympathise with that and they are in
:11:05. > :11:13.our hearts and minds for their loss and their injured. Ben, you are in
:11:14. > :11:19.Austin and Texas but does Dallas feel progressive from what you are
:11:20. > :11:27.hearing? These things are relative. I'm sure, as your guest pointed out,
:11:28. > :11:30.many of these police forces often have black officers leading them,
:11:31. > :11:34.but I want to go back to the question as to whether or not Black
:11:35. > :11:41.Lives Matter are fairly politicised. I think race is a political matter,
:11:42. > :11:46.racism is a political issue and they are trying to highlight the systemic
:11:47. > :11:51.ways in which black people continue to be disadvantaged in the US
:11:52. > :11:55.because of their skin colour. That is a political issue. The Washington
:11:56. > :11:59.post did a recent study and showed that over 500 people have been
:12:00. > :12:08.killed by police officers up to this point alone. Last year it was 990
:12:09. > :12:12.people killed. A disproportionate number of those will be
:12:13. > :12:16.African-Americans, so you have a convergence of the militarisation of
:12:17. > :12:21.the police force, the widespread use of guns and rifles, assault weapons,
:12:22. > :12:25.and on top of that the political context in which people like Donald
:12:26. > :12:29.Trump have invoked this sense of white fear and anxiety about losing
:12:30. > :12:34.our country. In this context that's why I would say we have an almost
:12:35. > :12:40.undeclared low-grade civil war in the US right now because both sides
:12:41. > :12:47.are armoured up as if they are military forces. 1152 people killed
:12:48. > :12:52.in the USA by police in 2015, 30% of those victims were black, 13% of the
:12:53. > :12:59.US population is black, so this is disproportionate and there is no
:13:00. > :13:04.argument about that. Charlie, Ben was bringing up the politicisation,
:13:05. > :13:08.but Barack Obama has come under a lot of pressure, and I'm quoting
:13:09. > :13:14.from various articles, for not being black enough, not addressing the
:13:15. > :13:18.racial tensions and perhaps even worsening under his presidency. It
:13:19. > :13:22.has worsened and in some respects he hasn't been the leader to the black
:13:23. > :13:28.community he could have been. There was a golden opportunity. It should
:13:29. > :13:33.have been a major moment of pride, but it goes further than that.
:13:34. > :13:39.Unfortunately instead of uniting the country, a lot have been disunited,
:13:40. > :13:44.taking potshots at police, making political statements that weren't
:13:45. > :13:52.necessarily true. Putting statements in over gun control. In Dallas it
:13:53. > :13:55.wasn't a gun control issue. We had police officers that... It is
:13:56. > :13:59.important these institutions are respected and they need to earn that
:14:00. > :14:03.respect. If they go wrong they need to be held to account but I think
:14:04. > :14:07.the majority of the police force is really do care about their
:14:08. > :14:11.populations. I go down to the fact that I think there are people... It
:14:12. > :14:16.is politics and politics is about power, trying to tear down these
:14:17. > :14:21.institutions which again hurts the black population in particular. Can
:14:22. > :14:30.I pick up on the politicisation thing. I don't argue that police
:14:31. > :14:34.injustice should not be politicised, of course it should, my problem is
:14:35. > :14:38.when it comes to a specific incident, an encounter between
:14:39. > :14:42.police and a member of the public that ends in a gunfight, people have
:14:43. > :14:49.to be exceptionally careful about how fast and what they draw from it.
:14:50. > :14:54.I think it is worth everybody simmering it down a bit. Not
:14:55. > :14:57.immediately assuming that, for instance, and claiming the police
:14:58. > :15:01.shot this person only because they were black or indeed the gunman from
:15:02. > :15:06.Thursday night shot the policeman only because he is white until we
:15:07. > :15:12.know why they might have done it, wait for the investigation and so
:15:13. > :15:15.on. That seems to be one of the key problems, the tinderbox feeling. I
:15:16. > :15:20.am in America quite a lot, I don't live there but it is the tinderbox
:15:21. > :15:24.feeling that you are only ever one incident away from people picking up
:15:25. > :15:34.an incident for their own purposes, running with it.
:15:35. > :15:46.Just to see briefly, on the general issue, should you find the details?
:15:47. > :15:50.I agree. But there is a pattern, it is interesting, the extent to which
:15:51. > :15:56.for many white Americans, they cannot see the patterns. Even when
:15:57. > :16:00.you show them the patterns, when you look at the incarceration rate, the
:16:01. > :16:04.majority of people incarcerated are people of colour. When you have
:16:05. > :16:10.these patterns it is not surprising people come to these issues and try
:16:11. > :16:16.to make sense of it. It is actually white society failing to see racism
:16:17. > :16:23.when it's in their face. I want to get a taste of how our viewers are
:16:24. > :16:26.seeing this. Some people are highlighting the fact that racism
:16:27. > :16:30.within the police is an ongoing issue and other people think the use
:16:31. > :16:34.of guns is a serious problem which needs to be addressed. Others are
:16:35. > :16:42.questioning the tone of the media coverage. Rose says she thinks the
:16:43. > :16:43.American plays can be overly aggressive and too quick to draw on
:16:44. > :17:24.a gun. Warren says... Thanks very much. To bring the
:17:25. > :17:27.discussion back, think about how we're different to the United
:17:28. > :17:34.States, many people bringing up the fact that guns are an issue, freely
:17:35. > :17:43.available there. How do you think we can peer? The guns issue is a big
:17:44. > :17:57.one, I quite like that you need to be highly skilled to carry a gun
:17:58. > :18:04.here. With America, unless police officers are highly skilled, they
:18:05. > :18:08.should be able to. I think the UK has its own problems in terms of
:18:09. > :18:13.race and criminal just this and the relationship between black
:18:14. > :18:18.communities and law enforcement. As we heard there are a very public
:18:19. > :18:24.efforts to tackle that. Definitely. There is stuff happening, is it
:18:25. > :18:31.enough? I don't know. I don't think the UK should be complacent at all.
:18:32. > :18:37.We do you draw the line? We're talking about the use of guns
:18:38. > :18:49.enforcing the law or stepping over it. That is what the assumption is
:18:50. > :18:57.on these cases. We need to recognise that as a police service we don't
:18:58. > :19:02.control side arms, the ones that are brought into the situation, as a
:19:03. > :19:15.result of that, the default position is not to reach for a gun, we are
:19:16. > :19:20.not willing to detain or defuse the situation and some people will lose
:19:21. > :19:28.their lives. We are far from perfect, we've got a lot to do,
:19:29. > :19:33.certain officers have teasers, I'm concerned that if we are our
:19:34. > :19:39.officers we will change the look and feel of the police service which is
:19:40. > :19:45.the envy of the world because a lot of people cannot understand that we
:19:46. > :19:51.don't carry firearms. I would like to address the disproportionality we
:19:52. > :20:01.have here in terms of the DNA database, the teasers, people are on
:20:02. > :20:11.the receiving end. People will make sure we are on -- make sure we are
:20:12. > :20:14.accountable and work closely with police and address the issues and
:20:15. > :20:23.don't get into the situation where it is them and us. Thank you very
:20:24. > :20:29.much for your comments. We need to move on. Stay tuned and get involved
:20:30. > :20:32.with the conversation. Michael Grade - Lord Grade -
:20:33. > :20:34.has had an illustrious career in entertainment,
:20:35. > :20:36.television and business. Now, he's taken on a fresh challenge
:20:37. > :20:39.to launch a new watchdog, the Independent Fundraising
:20:40. > :20:44.Regulator - to crack down on high pressure techniques
:20:45. > :20:47.used by some charities. Concern was highlighted by the case
:20:48. > :20:49.of 92-year-old poppy seller Olive Cooke who was bombarded
:20:50. > :20:51.with appeals from charities. Hardeep Singh Kohli now talks
:20:52. > :21:08.to Lord Grade about his new role You've been a top theatrical agent,
:21:09. > :21:13.TV mogul and business executive. You're no peer of the realm. Where
:21:14. > :21:19.did it all go wrong? I've been very lucky, I've never worried about the
:21:20. > :21:25.next job and the next opportunity, if you do it well enough the next
:21:26. > :21:28.opportunity will come along. What I always admired as I got the
:21:29. > :21:35.impression you did not really care what anybody else thought and you
:21:36. > :21:41.did what your gut told you. Instinct can be dangerous if it is not
:21:42. > :21:44.informed. You expect your leader to lead from the front. You don't
:21:45. > :21:49.expect them to be hiding in an office, never hear from them. I've
:21:50. > :22:00.always believed that and I think that stood me well. People always
:22:01. > :22:03.bring up the tough decisions you make, for example, the cancelling of
:22:04. > :22:08.Doctor Who. You'd never apologised for that, rightly so, because people
:22:09. > :22:16.forget what it was like when you cancelled it. It was a simple
:22:17. > :22:20.judgment, the show was rubbish. I said to the producer who came in
:22:21. > :22:27.saying, how many do you want next year, I said, I don't want any. This
:22:28. > :22:34.does not cut it. The audience had seen Star Wars and it was never the
:22:35. > :22:39.same again. The fact it has come back, it has proper budgets, special
:22:40. > :22:43.effects, if you came to me with that proposition I would never have
:22:44. > :22:50.cancelled. One might argue if you had never cancelled that it would
:22:51. > :22:57.never have come back. Maybe. What did you think was your best
:22:58. > :23:06.decision? Looking back, taking a call from Bob Geldof. My secretary
:23:07. > :23:14.said there was someone from a band on the line. He was trying to get me
:23:15. > :23:22.to put the video on top of the Pops. There was something about his
:23:23. > :23:25.approach, something about the intelligence with which he
:23:26. > :23:33.approached the conversation. He said, we've got David Bowie to
:23:34. > :23:43.introduce it. Let me have a look at the video. I looked at it and said,
:23:44. > :23:52.I will tell you what I will do, top of the Pops starts at 7pm, I will
:23:53. > :23:58.delay the start until 7:05pm and we will put the video in as a programme
:23:59. > :23:59.of its own. He was very grateful and I'm very grateful that I made that
:24:00. > :24:11.decision. At the time we were doing these
:24:12. > :24:18.things, there was a huge movement led by Mary Whitehouse, clean-up
:24:19. > :24:26.television, television is a corrupting influence and so on. I
:24:27. > :24:34.think we showed at the BBC that TV can be a real force for good.
:24:35. > :24:41.Charities have been very much present in your professional career
:24:42. > :24:50.and I just wonder whether there was a notion of it growing up in a
:24:51. > :24:54.secular Jewish family. I think most people do. I think the Jewish
:24:55. > :24:58.community expects to be asked for money and to give. That goes with
:24:59. > :25:05.the culture of it. It is incredibly generous and giving. The public
:25:06. > :25:15.wants to give and help and make a difference. You don't need to be and
:25:16. > :25:19.you should not be putting the public goodwill at risk towards charities
:25:20. > :25:22.with aggressive and unethical fundraising. There have been bad
:25:23. > :25:30.cases that have had huge publicity and that has got the public to ask
:25:31. > :25:37.themselves questions before they give. That is a bad thing. Do you
:25:38. > :25:46.think the olive Cooke case, the 92-year-old who received 270 charity
:25:47. > :25:53.letters, is an exceptional case, August that the worst? We need to
:25:54. > :26:00.find out how the exceptional that was. But the fact is it only needs a
:26:01. > :26:05.few bad cases to give the sector a bad name and that cannot be allowed
:26:06. > :26:11.to happen. That is why I set up the fundraising regulator, I felt it was
:26:12. > :26:15.an important job and it is very important that from time to time
:26:16. > :26:21.organisations or sectors, they all go wrong at some point and you need
:26:22. > :26:28.to correct it. Is the independent fundraising regulator just another
:26:29. > :26:37.talking shop, effectively, with no and bite? We will have liked. We
:26:38. > :26:43.will do our own investigations. We don't need a complaint to
:26:44. > :26:51.investigate. We can do it off our own back and we will be resourced in
:26:52. > :26:56.order to do that. Your appointment will give people some comfort and
:26:57. > :26:59.hope but also alert people to the fact that there was a problem. What
:27:00. > :27:06.would you say to the British public in terms of giving to good causes.
:27:07. > :27:11.Keep giving. So many people depend on the generosity of the British
:27:12. > :27:17.public. So many people, so many lives. You have to keep giving.
:27:18. > :27:19.Don't let some rotten apples spoil the whole lot. Thank you very much,
:27:20. > :27:24.Lord grade. Keep giving. Michael grade on why it
:27:25. > :27:41.is important to Remain generous. Coming up, should somebody born as a
:27:42. > :27:49.man be able to compete as a woman at the Olympics?
:27:50. > :27:51.Seven years after it was launched Sir John Chilcot released
:27:52. > :27:54.all 2.6 million words and 6,000 pages of his
:27:55. > :27:56.report on the Iraq war and occupation on Wednesday.
:27:57. > :27:58.It was a damning verdict on Tony Blair's decision
:27:59. > :28:00.to join the US invasion, and the lack of planning
:28:01. > :28:05.Mr Blair apologised for any mistakes made, but said "I believe we made
:28:06. > :28:07.the right decision and the world is better and safer".
:28:08. > :28:10.Some commentators have slammed this claim, and say the invasion of Iraq
:28:11. > :28:12.helped lead to the rise of so called Islamic State.
:28:13. > :28:15.Others, that religious factionalism in the area was a breeding ground
:28:16. > :28:22.So, is Islamic extremism caused by religion or politics?
:28:23. > :28:26.Joining our panel now is Christina Odone, Director
:28:27. > :28:28.of the Centre for Character and Values at the Legatum Institute,
:28:29. > :28:30.and Remona Aly a journalist with a particular interest
:28:31. > :28:35.Tony Blair says the invasion of Iraq has made the world better and safer.
:28:36. > :28:46.Very much so. People made the mistake of judging now versus then.
:28:47. > :28:53.It should be no versus how it would have been if Saddam Hussein was
:28:54. > :28:58.still in power. If he did not have stocks of weapons of mass
:28:59. > :29:04.destruction, he would have reconstituted his programme. Three
:29:05. > :29:12.things made it a better place than it was. It was the right decision to
:29:13. > :29:17.do it. Many people seeing the religious tension we've seen and the
:29:18. > :29:24.resurgence of Islamic State would have happened anyway, without
:29:25. > :29:28.political intervention. I think extremism and radicalisation is a
:29:29. > :29:33.complicated process, there is no one factor of causality, what really
:29:34. > :29:37.hurts and sickens me the most is religion and the abuse and the
:29:38. > :29:43.sickening abuse of religion is being used to promote a very frightening
:29:44. > :29:49.agenda. Nobody is safe. The extremists don't even stop attacking
:29:50. > :29:54.the second most holy sites for Muslims and that is the mosque in
:29:55. > :29:58.Saudi Arabia. They won't stop at anything and that is such a huge
:29:59. > :30:10.threat for all of us. How much of Daesh is to blame for
:30:11. > :30:14.the invasion of Iraq? Islamist extremism has existed since the
:30:15. > :30:22.beginning of Islam in some form and it certainly doesn't start in 2003.
:30:23. > :30:39.Just take one year, 1979, the overthrow of the Shah in Iran, the
:30:40. > :30:41.overtaking of a fundamentalist, that same year somewhat battling inside
:30:42. > :30:47.the mosque in Mecca with Saudi forces. That's just one year, 1979,
:30:48. > :30:54.so it is important not to pretend history started in the region in
:30:55. > :30:57.2003. However, as we know from the Chilcot report, there are very
:30:58. > :31:02.serious things that went wrong. Even if you agreed with the toppling of
:31:03. > :31:08.Saddam Hussein, obviously the planning post operations was
:31:09. > :31:14.atrocious if not nonexistent. There was some but it was atrocious. That
:31:15. > :31:22.has given rise to an opportunity of effectively stateless actors being
:31:23. > :31:27.able to move in. It is never an either/or an Islamic extremism
:31:28. > :31:32.predated this by a long way, but there are things you can do to make
:31:33. > :31:36.it worse. Let's make it clear Muslims are being attacked here, it
:31:37. > :31:40.is not just Muslims attacking, Muslims are being attacked as well
:31:41. > :31:49.in the region. Everyone knows that, yes. It is all unacceptable, there
:31:50. > :31:55.is no justification for violence. Lola, how much do you think Iraq is
:31:56. > :32:00.being used, taking advantage of, as a recruitment tool since the
:32:01. > :32:03.invasion? Yes, most certainly, I'm sure because I have seen things
:32:04. > :32:10.online, especially with western born people basically saying, look at
:32:11. > :32:14.what happened with Iraq. Tony Blair went in, invaded Iraq, created
:32:15. > :32:18.instability, so why should I care for the west and subscribe to
:32:19. > :32:23.Western ideologies of democracy and freedom when people are going in to
:32:24. > :32:28.kill my people without a basis? That was before the Chilcot report came
:32:29. > :32:32.out. Douglas, there has been a very strong anger about the way the UK
:32:33. > :32:38.has acted in the Middle East. Has that been justified? There are times
:32:39. > :32:44.when it is justified but the flip side is also important to bear in
:32:45. > :32:48.mind. Take one example, 1998 when the Blair government intervened in
:32:49. > :32:56.Kosovo to save thousands and thousands of Muslim lives from the
:32:57. > :33:00.Serb aggression there. It would do a great deal of good I think in this
:33:01. > :33:03.country and elsewhere if people acknowledged from all communities
:33:04. > :33:07.there are times when a government can get something wrong but there
:33:08. > :33:12.are times when a government can get something right, and that should be
:33:13. > :33:16.remembered and celebrated. Has that been the focus on the negative or
:33:17. > :33:21.when the Government has got things wrong, is that part of the reason
:33:22. > :33:23.why so many people or we are recognising that more people are
:33:24. > :33:31.being attracted to extremism from the west? Again, it is very
:33:32. > :33:35.complicated. We cannot just point to one thing, in politics or religion.
:33:36. > :33:40.It is a multifaceted problem we need to address, and we should be
:33:41. > :33:44.celebrating the fact that written intervened in genocide in Bosnia and
:33:45. > :33:49.that is something we should be proud of as British people. Another thing
:33:50. > :33:54.about the Chilcot report is I personally felt that it shows the
:33:55. > :34:00.strength of our democracy, that there is an independent inquiry into
:34:01. > :34:05.a former Prime Minister on his actions, on the Iraq war. But
:34:06. > :34:13.something should be celebrated. And I make one point as well that it is
:34:14. > :34:15.important not to cover over, as it were, I think some commentators have
:34:16. > :34:21.in recent years, the absolute barbarism of the Saddam Hussein
:34:22. > :34:26.regime. He killed more Muslims than anyone else in the late 20th
:34:27. > :34:31.century. If you have been to the prisons in Iraq who was holding
:34:32. > :34:36.people in, people pretend barbarism in Iraq only started in 2003, they
:34:37. > :34:39.should really do the victims of Saddam Hussein the decency of
:34:40. > :34:43.remembering what he did. He didn't just keep the lid on things, he was
:34:44. > :34:49.the most appalling butcher of modern times. One of the problems we also
:34:50. > :34:53.have when we get these controversial issues is the consolation of
:34:54. > :34:58.different things. I was in favour of the war, I am still in favour of the
:34:59. > :35:02.war, but afterwards major mistakes were made. This goes back to the
:35:03. > :35:09.last discussion we had about Dallas, these discussions where it goes on
:35:10. > :35:15.to Twitter, that Tony Blair I believe, one of the sisters of the
:35:16. > :35:19.soldiers said, the biggest terrorist in the world. This is the level of
:35:20. > :35:24.discussion and it doesn't help. You have to look at the context of how
:35:25. > :35:29.the decision was made. I think the problem is that if Tony Blair and
:35:30. > :35:34.George Bush had said we are going in to depose Saddam Hussein because he
:35:35. > :35:38.is a butcher, that is one thing, but they basically made up a false
:35:39. > :35:44.argument and that is not ethical for heads of state to do. When it comes
:35:45. > :35:48.to extremism, I see where people are attracted to extremism, if they
:35:49. > :35:53.believe in authority figures, and when they feel let down I authority
:35:54. > :35:57.figures they will look for other authority figures to show them the
:35:58. > :36:01.way. If they are let down by the Prime Minister, and other people
:36:02. > :36:12.say, I can show you the way, they are likely to go down that path.
:36:13. > :36:17.Douglas, on extremism? I think the Chilcot report on the way
:36:18. > :36:23.intelligence was used is damning, but I think as a society we should
:36:24. > :36:29.reflect on something as follows... And fluid campaigned for years
:36:30. > :36:35.throughout the 1980s and 1990s to get Saddam Hussein held to account
:36:36. > :36:40.for his butchery of the Kurds, the shears, and there was no public
:36:41. > :36:50.desire for that. I think when we reflect on what happened in 2003, we
:36:51. > :36:54.should remember people who campaigned and what public feeling
:36:55. > :36:59.is. This is about extremism and whether it is down to religion and
:37:00. > :37:04.politics, and just reflecting on Lola's point, when you talked about
:37:05. > :37:09.the disappointment people can have and how it is reflected on people in
:37:10. > :37:13.authority. There is a difference between extremism and terrorism.
:37:14. > :37:17.Extremism is someone who hates something and is not doing it for
:37:18. > :37:22.political means. He thinks abortion is evil, he will take out abortion
:37:23. > :37:28.providers or clinics. It is nothing political, and I think in this you
:37:29. > :37:33.have a mixture of both. Politics is power but it is backed up with
:37:34. > :37:39.extremism. This is why it is important again, we need to call it,
:37:40. > :37:44.without being offensive to Muslims, extremist jihad terror because these
:37:45. > :37:48.are people who are doing an act, I can't see any other way they would
:37:49. > :37:53.do it, to blow themselves up... And of course you would say these acts
:37:54. > :38:00.are not reflective of the whole Muslim community, a tiny part have
:38:01. > :38:06.been effective, but how responsible are our politicians for firing that
:38:07. > :38:10.up? We all have a responsibility. Violent extremism is a threat to
:38:11. > :38:18.everybody and we have seen violence in America, in Brussels, Syria and
:38:19. > :38:23.Iraq, and also here in the UK with our MP Jo Cox, who was tragically
:38:24. > :38:28.killed. It is a threat to all of us, a threat on stability and to our
:38:29. > :38:33.freedom. Religion for me personally is about placing humanity above all
:38:34. > :38:40.else. Religion is about ethics and it is about placing humanity above
:38:41. > :38:46.all else. I think this is a timely point to go to Tommy. You have been
:38:47. > :38:53.sending your texts and tweet, lots of reaction I imagine. Yes, you said
:38:54. > :38:55.it was a complex mixture of religion and politics. Let's look at this
:38:56. > :39:26.meant from Mark. I think we can all agree on that.
:39:27. > :39:29.Tommy, thank you. Douglas, should politicians take responsibility or
:39:30. > :39:36.be more mindful about the impact of these decisions? Not just tackling a
:39:37. > :39:42.leader and a country but what it leads to later on. Yes, terrorism
:39:43. > :39:46.can come from pretty much any ideological source. There are people
:39:47. > :39:50.who commit acts of violence in the name of anti-globalisation, in the
:39:51. > :39:54.name of environmentalism, all sorts of things. The moment they become
:39:55. > :39:58.violent is the moment they step outside the normal bounds of
:39:59. > :40:04.political discourse. I think one thing that has to be said, most of
:40:05. > :40:08.the time when there is a form of extremism and it is traceable to a
:40:09. > :40:13.particular ideology, whether it is religious or political, others who
:40:14. > :40:16.follow that ideology don't take responsibility for the actions but
:40:17. > :40:21.try to work as hard as possible to make sure that anybody who does that
:40:22. > :40:25.in the name of their faith or belief is effectively pushed out. For many
:40:26. > :40:30.non-Muslims there has been a great concern in recent years not that
:40:31. > :40:33.Muslims as a whole should be held responsible, far from it, but that
:40:34. > :40:38.there has been denial from elements of the Muslim community saying it
:40:39. > :40:42.has nothing to do with our religion. I think we keep falling into a trap
:40:43. > :40:50.where we are letting these murderous criminals speak for us and define
:40:51. > :40:58.us. If they say we are doing this in the name of religion, why on earth
:40:59. > :41:04.are we taking their word for it? The vast majority of us are against
:41:05. > :41:10.violence, hold to the sanctity of life, these are the ones that I
:41:11. > :41:14.want... Religion to define not trust as a society as well. I remember the
:41:15. > :41:23.one armed shake outside the mosque, I remember Fiona Phillips saying MI5
:41:24. > :41:28.were watching this and thought this guy was a clown, but they didn't
:41:29. > :41:33.realise to the guy sitting outside the mosque watching him, they took
:41:34. > :41:38.him very seriously. These people don't represent Islam, but at the
:41:39. > :41:45.same time in their mind they do. It is very warped, distorted view of
:41:46. > :41:50.it. The extremist thing with politics and religion, I think we
:41:51. > :41:53.also underestimate how resourceful and how resourced so-called Islamic
:41:54. > :41:59.State is, and I think they do have political ambition. By leaving Iraq
:42:00. > :42:04.and other places open, what you have done is created a vacuum for them to
:42:05. > :42:08.come in as political leaders, not just religious leaders. I have read
:42:09. > :42:16.a lot about how well organised they are in terms of their movement of
:42:17. > :42:23.weapons and money... And trade. I am so sorry. I say this every week.
:42:24. > :42:27.This is all we have time for in this discussion. Thank you, and thank you
:42:28. > :42:30.for your comments, keep them coming in.
:42:31. > :42:32.It's just over a month until the biggest sporting
:42:33. > :42:34.event on the planet, The Olympics, gets under way in Rio.
:42:35. > :42:37.This week it was revealed that the British team could make
:42:38. > :42:40.history at the games by fielding two competitors who were born as men,
:42:41. > :42:43.Is this a vital victory for transgender equality?
:42:44. > :42:46.Or will it lead to an unlevel playing field?
:42:47. > :42:49.We went to Sparkle in Manchester, one of Europe's largest
:42:50. > :42:51.transgender events, where most people were, not surprisingly,
:42:52. > :43:06.I don't think that trans-females have any specific advantage over
:43:07. > :43:12.genetic females because it is the cream rises to the top anyway. If
:43:13. > :43:16.there is somebody who has a kind of genetic advantage, muscular
:43:17. > :43:22.advantage, training advantage, that person will win, whether they are
:43:23. > :43:29.genetically male or trans-female. I do think men are stronger than
:43:30. > :43:35.women, I don't mean mentally, but physically, it is just in our
:43:36. > :43:39.biological make-up. Trans women don't tend to have an advantage over
:43:40. > :43:44.natural females. I find myself with the hormones I have lost so much
:43:45. > :43:48.muscle tone. It is a hard slog to keep as active as I used to be so I
:43:49. > :43:53.don't think there is only advantage. I think if a trans person won in
:43:54. > :43:56.event it would be fantastic, but I think there would be a massive
:43:57. > :44:02.backlash because that is people for you, they have got to hate
:44:03. > :44:07.something. Why do people think a living trans woman participating in
:44:08. > :44:11.female sports will somehow break the universe? When you are talking about
:44:12. > :44:16.male competition, female competition, you are talking about
:44:17. > :44:19.dividing people already. People should be together doing stuff,
:44:20. > :44:22.sport should be enjoyable for everybody.
:44:23. > :44:25.So when it comes to sports, are transgender athletes playing fair?
:44:26. > :44:28.We are joined now by someone who has first hand experience of both
:44:29. > :44:30.the competitive world of sport, as well as transitioning
:44:31. > :44:34.in the public eye - Kellie Maloney, formerly
:44:35. > :44:53.Also joining us down the line from our London
:44:54. > :44:57.One of the arguments here is that trans women remain as strong
:44:58. > :45:25.disagree with that. I cannot do boxing in the gym anymore, my muscle
:45:26. > :45:28.mass has deteriorated. You would say women would not have a competitive
:45:29. > :45:34.advantage? I don't think they'd have any advantage over women. They've
:45:35. > :45:39.got to have a certain level, certain hormonal level, the testosterone
:45:40. > :45:43.needs to be a certain level so they are competing on a level playing
:45:44. > :45:47.field. What has happened to you in terms of your transition? You say
:45:48. > :45:55.you have much less muscle mass and are not as strong. I have shrunk a
:45:56. > :46:03.little bit. My training programme has changed, myself, personally, I'm
:46:04. > :46:08.not as competitive as I was. That does not mean women are not
:46:09. > :46:15.competitive, that is just something I went through personally. They have
:46:16. > :46:22.a right to compete in sport if they are illegally in the boundaries set
:46:23. > :46:31.by committee. Douglas, there is an issue of equality. Yes, there is.
:46:32. > :46:37.There is also an element of manners which is important. Jermaine Greer,
:46:38. > :46:41.who has been very outspoken in criticising transgender, said,
:46:42. > :46:49.nobody wants to be rude, however, people need to be careful not to
:46:50. > :47:01.believe other people's versions of itself being true. If somebody is
:47:02. > :47:06.born a man, and feels female, it does not mean everybody else needs
:47:07. > :47:12.to agree that that person is now a woman. There are tensions. Would
:47:13. > :47:20.people regard somebody or as a man as a woman? They may be born as a
:47:21. > :47:24.man but it is their brain, throughout their lives, they've
:47:25. > :47:27.struggled with this, struggled to come to terms with this, because
:47:28. > :47:32.they know they were born in the wrong body. The argument of that is
:47:33. > :47:39.you are in the wrong body, so you are born with a man's body, and
:47:40. > :47:51.whether that, when you've transitioned, fairly represents a
:47:52. > :47:58.female body in terms of competing. One of the notions is a leading play
:47:59. > :48:02.all fields -- level playing field. That is a myth, depending on where
:48:03. > :48:05.you are born you have different access to equipment, technology, the
:48:06. > :48:11.altitude you're raised in gives you an advantage, so we start from this
:48:12. > :48:17.false notion that there is a leading play all -- level playing field and
:48:18. > :48:21.transition is cheating in some way. The other part is we become hyper
:48:22. > :48:25.focused on men that transition into women but we do not discuss the
:48:26. > :48:32.other way round. I suppose physically, the assumption is men
:48:33. > :48:45.are stronger than women. The transition appears to be unfair. If
:48:46. > :48:48.you go back to tennis, a famous male tennis player transitioned and was
:48:49. > :48:53.only moderately successful as a female. It does not give them any
:48:54. > :48:56.extra strength or power. There is also this notion that women are
:48:57. > :49:02.fragile who need to be protected. Part of this notion, the assumption
:49:03. > :49:06.that women cannot compete against men, maybe some of the concerns
:49:07. > :49:10.expressed by men is the feeling that some of the women athletes could be
:49:11. > :49:14.better than men. If you look at the distinction is made, it is
:49:15. > :49:21.completely arbitrary. The testosterone levels are completely
:49:22. > :49:27.arbitrary. If a woman has more than ten per litre they are seen to be
:49:28. > :49:31.not a woman anymore. So there is a maximum level of testosterone that
:49:32. > :49:37.female athletes can have but there is not one for men. They are
:49:38. > :49:45.artificially recreating these distinctions. That underlines that
:49:46. > :49:54.sport is gender segregated. This is thrown into the public domain. This
:49:55. > :50:00.notion that we have a binary six. Does sport need to be a special
:50:01. > :50:06.case? There's an issue of identity which I get, that people who feel
:50:07. > :50:11.like they are born in the wrong body, then there is an issue of
:50:12. > :50:19.biology. I'm not a doctor or a medical scientist. As a woman, I
:50:20. > :50:25.know that a lot of men, even men my height, are probably stronger than
:50:26. > :50:30.me. I'm wondering if what you're saying is correct, these notions of
:50:31. > :50:36.gender being artificial, should we not just have men and women
:50:37. > :50:43.competing across sport anyway? Let's bring in Delia Johnston in our
:50:44. > :50:48.newsroom. I suppose we're talking about whether there is a level
:50:49. > :50:54.playing field. What are your thoughts on transgender women, if
:50:55. > :51:01.they start winning, is that when the discussion is going to move, when
:51:02. > :51:06.the comments become more negative? There is a potential. The media will
:51:07. > :51:13.react the way they always react. If you look at the cold hard science of
:51:14. > :51:18.this, it is based on testosterone levels, hormone levels. Sport is
:51:19. > :51:27.always delete at that level and you look for physical advantages. Sport
:51:28. > :51:33.always selects the best. Obviously somebody who has a gender history
:51:34. > :51:41.wins at an Olympics there will be checks. That is not the case. The
:51:42. > :51:46.IOC have realised that chromosomes are not the definitive measure, a
:51:47. > :51:57.number of people out there have variations of that. We remember
:51:58. > :52:01.certain athletes which were queried about their gender in media, that
:52:02. > :52:07.was proven categorically that they were female but the chromosome count
:52:08. > :52:14.was projecting them as male. A quick word. You know the two athletes
:52:15. > :52:21.being considered. Either concerns about how much scrutiny they could
:52:22. > :52:29.come under? One has already pulled out. The other one is watching the
:52:30. > :52:38.media activity, and realises they do not want to be under scrutiny. If
:52:39. > :52:44.you look at it from say, football or rugby, other many gay players
:52:45. > :52:49.participating at peak level? Those who do come out get victimised or
:52:50. > :52:55.pressurised by the press. An athlete needs to be at 100% peak physical
:52:56. > :52:59.and mental fitness to compete. If there is fear of being ridiculed
:53:00. > :53:06.then that athlete is not going to be at their best. Kelly. Obviously,
:53:07. > :53:10.sexuality and gender are different things so you cannot compare them.
:53:11. > :53:16.If there is an athlete taking part, she knows the risks she is taking. I
:53:17. > :53:20.tried to remove myself from public life but the press hounded me and
:53:21. > :53:33.phoned me. I believe this athlete needs to come forward and compete.
:53:34. > :53:38.You've been gauging reaction. A lot of people coming out... Just to you
:53:39. > :53:40.played golf against Colin Montgomerie and you were better at
:53:41. > :54:29.the putting. Questioning the fairness of it. One
:54:30. > :54:37.can have respect for people and their life choices without having to
:54:38. > :54:41.pretend, for instance, that chromosomes don't matter. For
:54:42. > :54:47.specific sports, you're putting contest may not matter, but how
:54:48. > :54:56.would people feel about the person born a man boxing against a woman as
:54:57. > :55:02.a woman? That would not happen because of regulations. There are
:55:03. > :55:09.rules. You don't choose your agenda. -- your gender. This is a condition
:55:10. > :55:14.you are born with and suffer with and come to terms with. The sooner
:55:15. > :55:18.society except that and start to understand more about it the better
:55:19. > :55:25.it will be for everybody. I just think this is a non-issue. We should
:55:26. > :55:29.stop referring to is transgender women as transgender woman if they
:55:30. > :55:33.stop referring to themselves as that, the idea that there will be an
:55:34. > :55:37.avalanche of male athletes going over is simply not true, for four
:55:38. > :55:43.years you need to go through this, you need to go through hormone
:55:44. > :55:48.treatment or castration. I don't think anybody is saying it is a fast
:55:49. > :55:53.route to a gold medal. I'm seeing this has been a great discussion,
:55:54. > :55:55.thank you for joining us. That is about all from us this time.
:55:56. > :55:58.Thank you to our guests and also to you for your comments
:55:59. > :56:02.In the week that Muslims around the world have been marking Eid,
:56:03. > :56:05.the end of Ramadan, we end with Muslim singer Saif Adam.
:56:06. > :56:08.He's been enjoying Eid but also been reflecting on extremists who use
:56:09. > :56:12.Here he is now, accompanied by guitarist Suroj Sureshbanu,
:56:13. > :56:15.with his own composition "Not in My Name".
:56:16. > :56:56.I see people but I hear no sound. I feel I'm chasing something that
:56:57. > :57:06.cannot be found. It's a battle with our hearts, senseless people using
:57:07. > :57:21.our name. I was taught to pray and love, no anger in my heart. Not in
:57:22. > :57:35.my name, not in my name, not in my name. Not in my name. I am a teacher
:57:36. > :57:44.in the arts, I am a doctor saving lives, I am your neighbour next to
:57:45. > :57:51.your house, I am your friend. We pray for everyone around the world
:57:52. > :58:00.to listen to the call of our thoughts, and they don't represent
:58:01. > :58:07.our false representation. Let's play for everyone around the world to
:58:08. > :58:19.listen to the call of our thoughts. They don't represent our angel
:58:20. > :58:30.close, false representation. Not in my name, not in my name, not in my
:58:31. > :58:53.name, no, not in my name. Not in my name. Not in my name. Not in my
:58:54. > :59:00.name. We pray for everyone around the world to listen to the call of
:59:01. > :59:02.our thoughts. They don't