:00:00. > :00:17.Two days on from the nightmare in Nice, as the death toll rises,
:00:18. > :00:19.we ask do such events unite or divide us?
:00:20. > :00:20.Science or arts - which matters more?
:00:21. > :00:22.As the Government plans to pump millions into
:00:23. > :00:25.a new Chinese-style maths programme, are the creative arts being left out
:00:26. > :00:29.Cellist Julian Lloyd-Webber tells us why access to music
:00:30. > :00:43.Hollywood star Jennifer Aniston says she's fed up having
:00:44. > :00:45.her value determined by her lack of motherhood.
:00:46. > :00:50.Do we discriminate against people who don't have children?
:00:51. > :00:56.And Paralympic long jumper Steph Reid told us why she used Latin to
:00:57. > :01:01.change the image of physical disability. You will never hear the
:01:02. > :01:04.words strong and sexy connected to somebody with a physical disability.
:01:05. > :01:12.For me it is really important that you change that.
:01:13. > :01:15.Our guests are here ready to discuss those issues, and
:01:16. > :01:19.Tommy Sandhu will be sharing all your thoughts with us.
:01:20. > :01:27.Good morning. Good morning. It is so important that you guys get in touch
:01:28. > :01:31.and you can contact us through the Facebook page and on Twitter as
:01:32. > :01:43.well. If you are tweeting, don't forget to use this hashtag. And you
:01:44. > :01:59.can call us on this number: You can text as: And why not drop us a quick
:02:00. > :02:04.email? Come and get involved. Thank you.
:02:05. > :02:11.Aurelien Mondon is a senior lecturer in French and comparative politics
:02:12. > :02:14.Julie Siddiqi is an interfaith activist and campaign
:02:15. > :02:18.Peter Taylor is a journalist who has written and made films
:02:19. > :02:20.about terrorism threats all over the world.
:02:21. > :02:22.And Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin is chaplain to the Speaker
:02:23. > :02:28.We start with the aftermath of the dreadful events in Nice.
:02:29. > :02:33.84 people died, amongst them ten children.
:02:34. > :02:36.So-called Islamic State claims Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel,
:02:37. > :02:38.the driver of the lorry which created the mayhem,
:02:39. > :02:42.And as the flower tributes grow and we hear details
:02:43. > :02:46.about the victims, his actions become even more shocking.
:02:47. > :02:49.The Pope described the attack as blind violence, and here
:02:50. > :02:52.the Muslim Council of Britain said such acts are designed to create
:02:53. > :03:01.There have been worldwide expressions of sympathy and
:03:02. > :03:07.solidarity with France. We visited Notre Dame church in London, a focal
:03:08. > :03:13.point for the French community in London, as after the terror attacks
:03:14. > :03:19.in Paris, they come to terms with another mass killing.
:03:20. > :03:26.People came to Notre Dame church after the Paris attacks. Once again
:03:27. > :03:30.they have had to open a book of condolence to allow more people to
:03:31. > :03:40.light more candles or more innocent victims. A terrible attack. My
:03:41. > :03:47.feelings are shocked and incomprehension. The Father has
:03:48. > :03:52.tried to bring comfort and peace to those who like himself are shocked
:03:53. > :03:56.and bewildered. The best way to help people, I think it is about
:03:57. > :04:02.listening to them and also offering them space for reflection. Then they
:04:03. > :04:06.don't feel alone. It is not just French people who have come here to
:04:07. > :04:13.pay their respects. Others want to show solidarity as well. When I saw
:04:14. > :04:22.on TV the disaster, my heart was so sad. It is very terrible. Everybody
:04:23. > :04:26.that I am talking to is very shocked. We are trying to stick
:04:27. > :04:32.together and we're asking for news from the family in France. Like a
:04:33. > :04:39.lot of people, it is a time of solidarity for all of Europe, not
:04:40. > :04:42.just French, English. It is very painful but they should know it is
:04:43. > :04:48.paying for all of us. It is not their pain, it is also our pain It
:04:49. > :04:53.is important for us Christians to also pray for our Muslim brothers,
:04:54. > :04:58.because they are going through a very rough time. I am sure there
:04:59. > :05:03.were also Muslim families in Nice so we are all in the same boat. It is
:05:04. > :05:11.really about continuing to live and to live for the best and to continue
:05:12. > :05:17.to be human beings together. And not to let the anger or the hate to tip
:05:18. > :05:21.over. We pray especially for the victims of the attack in Nice and
:05:22. > :05:34.peace and unity of the people of goodwill. Our first question this
:05:35. > :05:38.week, do the events in Nice unite or divide us? Let me begin with you. We
:05:39. > :05:43.heard one of the people they're saying we are all in it together.
:05:44. > :05:48.Are we? I would like to think we are and it is true that it is hopeful to
:05:49. > :05:55.be such messages as the ones we have just heard. I have heard some of
:05:56. > :06:00.these on social media as well, where people say we need to take a step
:06:01. > :06:04.back and not fight hatred with hatred but with hope. However I am
:06:05. > :06:09.more pessimistic when I look at early discourse. When I look at the
:06:10. > :06:12.reaction of the people who take part, are allowed to take part in
:06:13. > :06:17.public discourse, there is actually more hatred to fight hatred. We saw
:06:18. > :06:22.French politicians coming out a few hours after the event talking about
:06:23. > :06:26.war, talking about terrorism, speculating about what was
:06:27. > :06:30.happening. So many excerpts have played this card as well, trying to
:06:31. > :06:36.find divisions, when we don't really know what has happened or Y. There
:06:37. > :06:41.is a possibility for unity but we have got to fight for it. We will
:06:42. > :06:45.talk about what the politicians are saying and why it is affecting us.
:06:46. > :06:48.So many people are asking why France again. I know you have studied the
:06:49. > :06:53.patterns of different terrorist groups in your work at different
:06:54. > :06:57.times in history. Have you got any thoughts on why France has been
:06:58. > :07:01.targeted and whether this could be prevented? Why France is being
:07:02. > :07:05.targeted is because France is in the forefront of the coalition air
:07:06. > :07:11.strikes attacks on Islamic State both in Iraq and Syria. And also
:07:12. > :07:19.France being a secular state, a secular society, does not permit,
:07:20. > :07:24.frowns upon the wearing of the hijab. Muslim women are not allowed
:07:25. > :07:28.to be fully covered, and therefore the so-called Islamic State sees
:07:29. > :07:33.France as a legitimate target for attack. With regard to the tragic
:07:34. > :07:38.events in Nice, I was not surprised but I was horrified like everybody
:07:39. > :07:41.else. It was the scale of it that really surprised me. The attack
:07:42. > :07:50.itself was always on the cards, be it in France or in the UK, because
:07:51. > :07:55.Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel, -- because Mohammed Al-Adnani, the
:07:56. > :07:58.so-called director of Islamic State's overseas operations, as
:07:59. > :08:04.directed these attacks. The first we saw on UK soil was the murder of Lee
:08:05. > :08:10.Rigby, which was carried out by Mohammed Atta Belardo and his
:08:11. > :08:14.colleague. -- Michael Adebolajo They used a knife to do the killing
:08:15. > :08:18.and Islamic State has said you don't need to be part of a network, just
:08:19. > :08:24.do it yourself in whatever way possible. And there is still
:08:25. > :08:27.speculation about how much of a link he had with Islamic State. We don't
:08:28. > :08:31.know that and I would be surprised if there was no linkage but at the
:08:32. > :08:34.moment the French authorities are combing through his emails, his
:08:35. > :08:39.computer, with a fine tooth comb, to see if there was a connection.
:08:40. > :08:43.Clearly I don't think there is a direct connection with Islamic
:08:44. > :08:47.State. The Muslim Council of Britain said these acts were designed to
:08:48. > :08:53.create hatred and cause division. As Peter was talking about the concerns
:08:54. > :08:56.of a secular society in France at why it is being targeted, this will
:08:57. > :09:02.almost entrench this hatred and division. As everybody has heard, we
:09:03. > :09:06.are all in this together but we can't be complacent either. We see
:09:07. > :09:15.division and hatred on our own streets, as had been mentioned. MP
:09:16. > :09:19.Jo Cox was murdered by somebody who also took extreme views and we can't
:09:20. > :09:22.be complacent about any of this She spoke very nobly before she was
:09:23. > :09:27.killed about how we have more in common and we need to fight against
:09:28. > :09:33.these things. If we allow hatred to divide us, then that is exactly what
:09:34. > :09:38.extremists from anywhere want to happen. We cannot allow them to feel
:09:39. > :09:41.like they are winning in that sense. And her husband in reaction to her
:09:42. > :09:49.death said that people need to come together and express love. Reverend,
:09:50. > :09:53.interesting, we have picked up on the language being used by
:09:54. > :09:57.politicians and leaders. Theresa May, Prime Minister, said we need to
:09:58. > :10:01.crush terrorists who are destroying our way of life. This is aggressive
:10:02. > :10:05.language and we have heard from President Hollande that we are at
:10:06. > :10:09.war with terrorists. How does that make us feel as citizens when our
:10:10. > :10:14.leader uses aggressive language like that? How can we respond to that if
:10:15. > :10:19.we are being told also to be kind to one another and live with one
:10:20. > :10:24.another in peace? I think what we are seeing both from France and
:10:25. > :10:28.possibly here is a human reaction. Most of us, when something like that
:10:29. > :10:35.happens, we are automatically thinking that we want to retaliate.
:10:36. > :10:40.But I would encourage leaders to take a step back, to pause and
:10:41. > :10:44.reflect, before hitting out. I think it was Desmond Tutu who said that an
:10:45. > :10:50.eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, we all end up blind and
:10:51. > :10:56.toothless. We have got to find a way as a community, yes, to say that
:10:57. > :11:03.what we have seen happening there is absolutely evil, but we have also
:11:04. > :11:09.got to say how can we as a community recover from this? What are we going
:11:10. > :11:15.to do? We have got to find a way of not letting it continued to be them
:11:16. > :11:20.and us. If we continue down that road, then we are going to have a
:11:21. > :11:25.repeat of this constantly. Peter, can we afford not to retaliate? Can
:11:26. > :11:31.we afford not for it to be them and us? We can't, being realistic.
:11:32. > :11:35.Terrorism in general has got to be attacked on two France. There has
:11:36. > :11:40.got to be a military response in the case of Islamic State, but also a
:11:41. > :11:44.response on the ground that the Muslim community or communities have
:11:45. > :11:48.got to be persuaded that they are not being targeted because they are
:11:49. > :11:51.Muslim. That the concern of the security services to look at those
:11:52. > :11:55.within the community, and the reality is that the radicalised and
:11:56. > :11:59.those with the potential to be radicalised, come within that
:12:00. > :12:02.community. Therefore the intelligence services and the police
:12:03. > :12:06.have got to be extremely sensitive about the way they approach the
:12:07. > :12:10.gathering of intelligence, which is necessary. So the attack has got to
:12:11. > :12:23.be both on the military front in Syria and Islamic State, but
:12:24. > :12:27.also, which is even more important, it has got to be focused on the
:12:28. > :12:30.Muslim communities, from which the extremists do come. I must stress
:12:31. > :12:32.that they are a minority in that community but nevertheless, they
:12:33. > :12:36.exist. Obviously you are right, this work is difficult. It requires
:12:37. > :12:39.leadership but it requires sensitivity. Frankly speaking, some
:12:40. > :12:42.of the work that has been done over the last couple of years in the way
:12:43. > :12:47.of targeting people has not been done as well as it needed to be
:12:48. > :12:51.done. You need the right people around the table, talking, and the
:12:52. > :12:55.government need to engage with lots of different people. But this is a
:12:56. > :12:59.problem for all of us and the pressure cannot just be put on the
:13:00. > :13:04.Muslim communities to deal with this issue. This is a problem for all of
:13:05. > :13:08.us. We talk about more in common. I have more in common with my
:13:09. > :13:12.neighbour than I ever have had with the man who did that in Nice. I
:13:13. > :13:17.don't have anything in common with him. The news that is coming out
:13:18. > :13:22.right now, once again, is saying that this guy was not very religious
:13:23. > :13:26.at all. We really do need this language. I was in Coventry recently
:13:27. > :13:32.and post-World War II Coventry Cathedral was completely bombed to
:13:33. > :13:35.ruins and from the ruins emerged Christian leadership that was quite
:13:36. > :13:41.exceptional, where they spoke about not taking revenge and rebuilding
:13:42. > :13:45.the community. It is very inspirational what they were able to
:13:46. > :13:49.achieve from that. It is always easy for people to point fingers and
:13:50. > :13:54.target and then say, oh, it is only a minority, but we all have got to
:13:55. > :14:01.look at our language and realise that these things can really do
:14:02. > :14:04.damage. And as we do that and analyse our language, emotions come
:14:05. > :14:16.into play and retaliation almost seems the natural response. By that,
:14:17. > :14:21.our leaders could be playing into their hands, the terrorists? Yes, I
:14:22. > :14:25.don't think anything that has done so far has helped us at all. We have
:14:26. > :14:30.seen a couple of decades of war at the moment and what has this
:14:31. > :14:33.achieved, really? We need to take a hard look at what we have done in
:14:34. > :14:37.the past in our foreign policies. We also need to take a hard look at
:14:38. > :14:43.France as well will need to look at what it has done in its own
:14:44. > :14:47.territory. I find it problematic to look at the Muslim community in
:14:48. > :14:51.France. The Muslim community is perhaps 5 million people, eight to
:14:52. > :14:56.10%, but it is a very diverse community. There are people who look
:14:57. > :15:00.like Muslims, practising Muslims, people with a name that sounds
:15:01. > :15:05.Muslim and so on. The people who committed the attacks on the 14th of
:15:06. > :15:09.July was not really a practising Muslim, apparently, according to
:15:10. > :15:13.witness accounts, so we need to be very careful about this. By saying
:15:14. > :15:17.that the Muslim community needs to accept the state of emergency and
:15:18. > :15:21.the stringent laws and the climate of suspicion around them, that is
:15:22. > :15:25.very problematic because we are putting them as second-class
:15:26. > :15:30.citizens by doing so they are French.
:15:31. > :15:35.Has retaliation worked so far? Retaliation in Syria and Iraq is
:15:36. > :15:41.clearly working. It is thought that one of the reasons for the recent
:15:42. > :15:45.attacks in Europe, twice, in Paris, in Belgium and latterly in Nice if
:15:46. > :15:50.Nice was connected with IS, and there's a big question mark over
:15:51. > :15:59.that, is the result of IS suffering severe losses in Iraq and in Syria.
:16:00. > :16:04.The danger is, the problem is, how do you defeat the ideology? How do
:16:05. > :16:07.you persuade vulnerable young Muslims who are alienated anyway for
:16:08. > :16:11.various reasons in their own societies, how do you persuade them,
:16:12. > :16:15.how do you convince them this is not the path to take? That's what we
:16:16. > :16:18.them this is not the path to take? That's what we need to do - address
:16:19. > :16:22.this whole business of young people feeling alienated within the
:16:23. > :16:27.societies and communities... Like second class citizens almost? Second
:16:28. > :16:31.class citizens. We can't just bomb them out of existence and they can't
:16:32. > :16:36.bomb us out of existence. At some point we are going to have to
:16:37. > :16:40.invest, in the same way we are investing militarily, with eare
:16:41. > :16:44.going to have to invest in sitting around the table and finding the
:16:45. > :16:49.cause and addressing those causes that allows someone who has lived
:16:50. > :16:55.amongst people there in Nice to destroy the people around him. I
:16:56. > :16:58.think we know what the causes are, and we successive Governments have
:16:59. > :17:02.been trying to deal with this huge problem over many years now. They
:17:03. > :17:06.know where the alienation comes from. It is from unemployment, from
:17:07. > :17:11.dislocation. We know what the causes are. The problem is, how do we
:17:12. > :17:16.tackle it? If we know what the problems are, it seems to me we are
:17:17. > :17:20.saying, we know what the problems are, let's go in and bomb. Bomb
:17:21. > :17:27.When it comes to employment and the other things, we know what the
:17:28. > :17:31.problems are, but we know what to do about it. We have to be careful with
:17:32. > :17:35.discourse. We look at problems and all of a sudden we turn to
:17:36. > :17:40.terrorism. Most of the people who are discriminated against in France
:17:41. > :17:45.are not terrorists. They've sadly come to accept it. Politics does not
:17:46. > :17:47.represent them any more. It is dangerous when talking about
:17:48. > :17:50.alienation and discrimination to talk about terrorism. There's a
:17:51. > :17:57.world apart. We are talking about division and whether the events in
:17:58. > :18:04.Nice have divided us or if they unite us. Lots of people are saying
:18:05. > :18:08.this is division, and some are saying they've united the
:18:09. > :18:12.perpetrators as well as though who sympathise with the victims. Emma
:18:13. > :18:20.says clearly it was an attempt to divide us. Dave saying they don t
:18:21. > :18:24.divide us but they show us how divided the world is, an interesting
:18:25. > :18:27.point. Bill says unfortunately the human race is becoming divided
:18:28. > :18:34.because of religion. Grace says it divides and it you nights. It
:18:35. > :18:40.depends on how we choose to respond. How we move forward. And Tess says
:18:41. > :18:44.these unite the victims and those who sympathise with them, and the
:18:45. > :18:49.perpetrators and those who sympathise with them. Tommy, thank
:18:50. > :18:53.you. Julie, we are divided because of religion was one of the comments
:18:54. > :19:00.there. How does that make British Muslims feel and react? British
:19:01. > :19:04.Muslims along with our other fellow citizens have to use these tragic
:19:05. > :19:10.incidents to bring us closer together. It requires effort. What
:19:11. > :19:14.does that look like? I can't help thinking that some of it has to be
:19:15. > :19:19.good old community organising in local areas. You cannot ever take
:19:20. > :19:25.away from the fact that friendships and trust are crucial. It sounds
:19:26. > :19:28.obvious, but most of us live in our own world and we know that often
:19:29. > :19:35.people don't even know their neighbours. It is very sad. Going
:19:36. > :19:38.back to those good old-fashioned community-organising models, where
:19:39. > :19:41.people locally come together, and it requires a narrative from
:19:42. > :19:47.politicians, from academics, and from all of us really to say that we
:19:48. > :19:51.cannot allow this to be something that divides, because that's what
:19:52. > :19:56.these people want to happen. The people that were killed in. In nice,
:19:57. > :20:00.the person who did it, it was indiscriminate. I've heard all sorts
:20:01. > :20:04.of stories coming out of people I know who were there. People say that
:20:05. > :20:10.one of the first people to be killed was a Muslim woman in her headscarf.
:20:11. > :20:14.That grief and this tragedy has to be something that brings us
:20:15. > :20:19.together. We can't allow it to seem wishy-washy. This is real stuff and
:20:20. > :20:26.we have to put effort in. And this is saying to people you need to love
:20:27. > :20:30.people who hate you? Absolutely The recent discourse around the
:20:31. > :20:33.referendum have almost legitimatised people on the streets saying them
:20:34. > :20:38.over there, we don't like them because... I'm not going to blame
:20:39. > :20:42.religion. As you say, we have to sit together, we have to get to know
:20:43. > :20:48.each other as human beings, recognising that we share a common
:20:49. > :20:53.humanity. That's what is important. And not them because they have this
:20:54. > :20:58.banner calling them Muslim or Christian or Jews or something else.
:20:59. > :21:02.We are going to leave it there for the moment. Thank you for your
:21:03. > :21:08.thoughts so far. Thank you for your constituents as well. At the end of
:21:09. > :21:09.the programme we'll see a French choir based in Britain paying
:21:10. > :21:13.tribute to those who died in Nice. Still to come on Sunday Morning
:21:14. > :21:15.Live: Paralympian athlete Stef Reid reveals how a near fatal accident
:21:16. > :21:25.changed her life. I really promised in that moment,
:21:26. > :21:32.God, if you can save Andrea save my life, then you can have the rest of
:21:33. > :21:35.it. Can save Andrea save my life, then you can have the rest of it. --
:21:36. > :21:37.save me and save my life then you can have the rest of it.
:21:38. > :21:40.The Government's announced that ?41 million will be spent on bringing
:21:41. > :21:42.in the Shanghai system of teaching maths in English schools
:21:43. > :21:45.which has delivered remarkable results in some Asian countries
:21:46. > :21:47.It's hoped that the plus is it will improve skills in sciences
:21:48. > :21:51.But some educationalists believe the minus is that arts
:21:52. > :21:54.Tommy's been to Stratford-Upon-Avon to ask people whether arts should be
:21:55. > :22:05.And I think the atmosphere went to his head?
:22:06. > :22:12.We are at the beautiful birthplace of Shakespeare where, according to
:22:13. > :22:17.him, life is a stage. But should it be? In schools subjects such as
:22:18. > :22:20.drama and creative arts are being pushed aside for more traditional
:22:21. > :22:26.academic subjects like English and mathematics. But should that be the
:22:27. > :22:32.case? I want to know what the people of Stratford-upon-Avon really think.
:22:33. > :22:40.Was that too ITT? It's my performing arts background you see. Which
:22:41. > :22:44.subjects do you think are most important to study? I think YELLOW I
:22:45. > :22:49.think the sciences and literacy - English, maths. The core subjects
:22:50. > :22:55.but maybe also music and arts. I think acting is one of the greatest
:22:56. > :22:59.subjects, because it gives you so much experience into life, public
:23:00. > :23:03.speaking, talking to people every day, having this conversation now.
:23:04. > :23:08.We need to try everything creative and more academic subjects, so you
:23:09. > :23:12.know where your passion lies. Did you study creative subjects at
:23:13. > :23:20.school.? I did text tiles, home economics. And do you use these in
:23:21. > :23:24.your day-to-day life? I have to do sewing when my socks have holes in.
:23:25. > :23:31.How did studying the arts help you now? Not at all. Drama, you can do
:23:32. > :23:39.that after 18, but before 18 I wouldn't describe it as essential.
:23:40. > :23:42.What if creative subjects just disappeared from the curriculum How
:23:43. > :23:47.do you think that would impact society? It would be a huge shame. I
:23:48. > :23:51.think creative subjects are what makes everything more exciting and
:23:52. > :23:54.brings life into it, isn't it? The academic subjects are good for the
:23:55. > :23:59.economy and we need that to fund the arts. You can't help me if I need
:24:00. > :24:04.more doctors, if I need lawyers those kind of people, business
:24:05. > :24:09.people. That's a good point but if I'm paying a doctor I research into
:24:10. > :24:13.that profession so I can know a bit about the profession. Profession. If
:24:14. > :24:20.you had a cold I couldn't prescribe you medicine. But you could pretend
:24:21. > :24:22.to! Are you surprised that Tommy always loved a bit of drama? I'm
:24:23. > :24:23.not. Should arts be as important
:24:24. > :24:27.as science in schools? Joining the panel now is the cellist
:24:28. > :24:31.Julian Lloyd Webber. He is principal of the Birmingham
:24:32. > :24:35.conservatoire. Cristina Odone is a writer
:24:36. > :24:38.and director of the Centre Toby Young is associate
:24:39. > :24:40.editor of The Spectator. And Edwina Dunn is CEO of consumer
:24:41. > :24:43.insight group Starcount and the chair of Your Life,
:24:44. > :24:53.a government initiative set up to promote science, technology,
:24:54. > :25:15.engineering and mathematics. I had to retake the exams in
:25:16. > :25:21.humanities and the sciences. That's why I want a more balanced GCSE
:25:22. > :25:25.array of arts and sciences. How do you veer, science or arts? It should
:25:26. > :25:32.have been science, but I did arts. But here you are the person who is
:25:33. > :25:37.going to explain to me the Shanghai teaching method. My understanding is
:25:38. > :25:41.that it is a highly structured method of classroom teaching where
:25:42. > :25:47.everyone is brought up to the same standard and they don't move to the
:25:48. > :25:52.next level until they all come up into the same standard. Why do we
:25:53. > :25:57.need ?41 million to put into it some of England's schools? I guess
:25:58. > :26:00.there's a lot of changes, new teaching material, new teachers
:26:01. > :26:05.needed, so it's a massive change. It's not mandatory. It is voluntary
:26:06. > :26:10.at this stage. But the big argument for learning, from what which could
:26:11. > :26:14.in Shanghai, is that Chinese students are away ahead of British
:26:15. > :26:19.students in maths. At 15 they are on average three years ahead of their
:26:20. > :26:23.British counterparts and the most disadvantaged students in Shanghai
:26:24. > :26:27.do better in maths than the most privileged in the UK. They are doing
:26:28. > :26:30.something right. It is sensible to learn from them. Julian
:26:31. > :26:34.Lloyd-Webber, does it mean if you add to the money in sciences or
:26:35. > :26:38.maths are we subtracting from the arts? It is interesting to me that
:26:39. > :26:41.this scheme is coming from Shanghai where it is perfectly normal for
:26:42. > :26:45.children to play instruments. I wonder if that's helping them with
:26:46. > :26:50.their maths, as has often been proved. My wife is from Shanghai. I
:26:51. > :26:55.know the set-up there really well. One in six of our students in
:26:56. > :26:59.Birmingham conservatoire are from China. The Far East, South Korea,
:27:00. > :27:03.Japan, it is perfectly normal for a child to play an instrument. That's
:27:04. > :27:08.something that's no longer to case here. As a parent it is difficult to
:27:09. > :27:13.find this balance, which side, where do you push your child in terms of
:27:14. > :27:17.academia? Do you push them in the academic side or the arts, because
:27:18. > :27:21.you are thinking how easy it is for them to get a job and be accepted in
:27:22. > :27:27.the world? If I were worried only about jobs I know that the starting
:27:28. > :27:34.salary for an engineer is ?65,0 0, and for an actress or writer is one
:27:35. > :27:38.sixth of that. As Julian would know, a musician is even worse. But we
:27:39. > :27:42.don't want just professionals. We want human beings. We want
:27:43. > :27:47.flourishing thriving human beings who know their music, who know about
:27:48. > :27:50.stories and storytelling for me who is so interested in the transmission
:27:51. > :27:57.of values, storytelling is essential. It is fundamental to us.
:27:58. > :28:03.It the way we tell the world who we are and who we want to be. Julian,
:28:04. > :28:07.you are not going to disagree with that The Government has a range of
:28:08. > :28:13.statistics about the creative arts. The creative arts in this country
:28:14. > :28:17.bring in ?84 billion a year. Nearly 2 million people active in the
:28:18. > :28:21.creative arts. That's their job so it makes no sense at all to me to be
:28:22. > :28:26.cutting it from the National Curriculum. This is something that
:28:27. > :28:29.benefits the country. The wonderful thing, one of the many wonderful
:28:30. > :28:33.things about music is that it brings people together. It has no barriers
:28:34. > :28:37.of language. No barriers of background or race. At a time like
:28:38. > :28:45.this when this country's never been so split down the middle as it is
:28:46. > :28:49.now, it is madness to take it out. Theresa May, she may have ensured
:28:50. > :28:53.that the Tory party is no longer the nasty party. It is certainly the
:28:54. > :29:00.nasty party when it comes to making cuts to music education. Toby? It is
:29:01. > :29:03.a false dichotomy to present it as a choice between the arts and the
:29:04. > :29:09.sciences on the other. There has been more emphasis on science and
:29:10. > :29:12.humanis, GCSEs, since 2010, but there hasn't been a corresponding
:29:13. > :29:18.decline in the take up of arts subjects. 1 periods more children
:29:19. > :29:23.are being entered for at least one arts GCSE this year than in any
:29:24. > :29:27.previous years. We haven't seen a decline in the up-take of arts
:29:28. > :29:30.subjects. The reason for a better balance and encouraging more
:29:31. > :29:34.children, particularly women to do science and humanis subjects at
:29:35. > :29:39.GCSE, is because they are preserve their options, and not have to
:29:40. > :29:43.choose between an academic or vocational or creative route at 16,
:29:44. > :29:46.and if they don't do these GCSEs they are cutting off their options.
:29:47. > :29:55.Edwina? I like the fact that you have talked
:29:56. > :29:58.about balance. The reality is the majority of students are turning
:29:59. > :30:07.away from maths and physics. Even though they are getting A star
:30:08. > :30:12.grades, girls and boys are disproportionately choosing the
:30:13. > :30:15.arts. I agree that is a sadness however it is terrible when you are
:30:16. > :30:19.the mother of a daughter who is terribly interested in the arts and
:30:20. > :30:29.wants to read and write had become an actress maybe, and is told by her
:30:30. > :30:33.teachers and her peers and her family's friends that, oh, you are
:30:34. > :30:38.letting down this side as a girl. Why are you not going into maths and
:30:39. > :30:42.science? Are you being stereotypical? I think that is
:30:43. > :30:48.terrible. The whole point is that torture and are good at different
:30:49. > :30:52.things. I would be really upset if my five-year-old daughter came out
:30:53. > :30:56.of school having been taught nothing about music. Of course she has got
:30:57. > :31:00.music at home but if you haven't, it has got to come from the school One
:31:01. > :31:06.would imagine that in your home any child would have access to music!
:31:07. > :31:12.But it is about access. I was very lucky because I was taught an
:31:13. > :31:15.instrument, but being given an instrument by the local authority, I
:31:16. > :31:22.was very blessed because the money is not therefore now. When you see
:31:23. > :31:29.it with the sciences, you can teach that en masse. But you can teach
:31:30. > :31:38.musical instruments en masse. But musical instruments? Yes, you can.
:31:39. > :31:42.And all orchestras are great because it is working towards something that
:31:43. > :31:46.is bigger than the individual. Julian is right. If we want to
:31:47. > :31:54.prioritise use it teaching, the money is there. In the school I set
:31:55. > :32:01.up in 2011, 90% of children are doing this EBacc, which is maths,
:32:02. > :32:05.English, two sciences, and humanity and a foreign language, but we also
:32:06. > :32:09.have something like the highest percentage of children entered for
:32:10. > :32:13.music GCSE because we have a thriving music department. It
:32:14. > :32:17.shouldn't be this kind of postcode lottery. Some children have access
:32:18. > :32:21.to music and others don't get any at all. Apparently 40% of children from
:32:22. > :32:29.a low income brackets never get to see and play music at school. They
:32:30. > :32:35.never go to a concert? No. But music is an expensive subject to teach.
:32:36. > :32:41.And so is physics. 40% of state schools have nobody studying physics
:32:42. > :32:45.at A-level, nobody. This is a real dilemma. What I really hate about
:32:46. > :32:51.this argument is the either or. It doesn't have to be. If you play an
:32:52. > :32:54.instrument, it helps your schoolwork, and that is the thing we
:32:55. > :32:59.cannot seem to get through to our lovely politicians. What we are
:33:00. > :33:03.asking is whether learning to play an instrument and having that skill
:33:04. > :33:11.is as important as having a science based skill, in terms of work. What
:33:12. > :33:16.do you need? For the child to have the opportunity to find out for
:33:17. > :33:19.themselves. The country is going digital, we know that, and we have
:33:20. > :33:26.got to hold our own in a world economy where we are currently about
:33:27. > :33:30.21st. To be in a position to get our jobs into the right shape, and our
:33:31. > :33:36.skills and to the right shape, we have got to do something quite
:33:37. > :33:41.radical will stop is this radical enough, ?41 million for some schools
:33:42. > :33:49.to volunteer to learn maths? Is it a drop in the ocean? I think it is a
:33:50. > :33:53.beginning but by 2030 there will be 7 million jobs that require some
:33:54. > :33:57.element of science within them. Unless we get a lot more people
:33:58. > :34:06.taking that kind of subject, we are going to fail. I hope we don't crush
:34:07. > :34:13.the human spirit that is engaged in the humanities, the arts. My worry
:34:14. > :34:19.is that when Jesus wanted to teach his disciples, he didn't teach them
:34:20. > :34:25.four times four equals 16. He taught them stories with morals that were
:34:26. > :34:29.part of a narrative. The same is true in the Koran. You are all
:34:30. > :34:32.jumping ready to react and I am going to take a small pause and go
:34:33. > :34:38.to Tommy and see what viewers are saying because I think it has
:34:39. > :34:41.engaged them intensely. Massively. Many people concerned about the
:34:42. > :34:42.Shanghai system and saying that arts subjects need to be of equal
:34:43. > :35:25.importance. We are hearing lots from all the
:35:26. > :35:30.adults and people on the panel, but what about the children it is aimed
:35:31. > :35:36.at? British astronaut Tim Peake used his space station expedition to
:35:37. > :35:40.encourage science in schools. Hannah Belshaw is one of the children that
:35:41. > :35:46.he inspired. Come here and tell everyone what you did for Tim Peake.
:35:47. > :35:53.I entered a competition. We had to think of an idea for him to do in
:35:54. > :35:56.space. My idea was to collect data from around the International Space
:35:57. > :36:03.Station and put it into mine craft for children. I was exactly the same
:36:04. > :36:07.at 11! Same intelligence. Amazing to know that Tim Peake is using your
:36:08. > :36:13.programme in space. Yes, it was really exciting. Have you always
:36:14. > :36:19.been into sciences? Yes, I have but now even more because of the
:36:20. > :36:25.competition. But do you like the arts, singing and dancing? Yes, I do
:36:26. > :36:30.like it. Singing has creativity but so does science. She is an
:36:31. > :36:33.all-rounder. I think we could learn something! I feel like an
:36:34. > :36:39.underachiever here. You were nodding, saying the balance... The
:36:40. > :36:44.balance is fundamental. To be said something about the schools he is
:36:45. > :36:47.involved with. There have been many examples of schools that have
:36:48. > :36:51.introduced music and it has turned their results completely around and
:36:52. > :36:56.brought up all the results in the subjects that the national
:36:57. > :37:01.curriculum is so obsessed by. Music is part of the national curriculum.
:37:02. > :37:05.That is a misunderstanding. I wrote a book about it. What I mean by that
:37:06. > :37:10.is that some schools have found very clever ways of not really doing it
:37:11. > :37:13.so they do it for half term. The academies are not part of the
:37:14. > :37:17.national curriculum anyway and there are more of those. We have just got
:37:18. > :37:21.to be very careful. Many music teachers have been laid off. It is
:37:22. > :37:24.so easy to destroy something and very difficult to bring it back
:37:25. > :37:37.There is a lot of misinformation in this
:37:38. > :37:40.discussion. The issue of whether art should be taught in schools has been
:37:41. > :37:42.mixed up with people's attitudes towards the Conservative government.
:37:43. > :37:45.The fact is there has not been a downgrading of arts in schools in
:37:46. > :37:47.the past six years and the uptake of arts GCSEs has actually increased.
:37:48. > :37:50.Julian is right that music is important but it is still part of
:37:51. > :37:53.the national curriculum. I wrote a book about the national curriculum.
:37:54. > :37:58.When we talk about ?41 million being injected into a maths programme it
:37:59. > :38:02.is about the emphasis. I don't want to get into a discussion about the
:38:03. > :38:19.political ramifications, but there is an impression, isn't there?
:38:20. > :38:24.Yes, there is. The message is that this is what we as a society value
:38:25. > :38:26.and that message is confirmed and reinforced with the salaries we give
:38:27. > :38:29.to the engineer rather than the musician. How do you inspire? When a
:38:30. > :38:33.young person hears you are going to earn more money, ?65,000 starting
:38:34. > :38:37.salary, and you still have the phrase is poor, struggling actor,
:38:38. > :38:41.how do you inspire them? There might be struggling scientists around I
:38:42. > :38:46.don't know. It depends. It is perfectly possible to talk about the
:38:47. > :38:54.massive figures at the creative arts make for this country. Are there any
:38:55. > :38:58.struggling scientists? I can't think of one. They are paid on average 15%
:38:59. > :39:02.more when they come out with these qualifications. The greatest ever
:39:03. > :39:06.leader of the Conservative Party, Winston Churchill, was reputed to
:39:07. > :39:11.say, during the war when he was asked to cut the arts budget, he
:39:12. > :39:14.said why are we fighting the war then? I am going to finish on that
:39:15. > :39:20.point because it is very poignant but I want to finish this discussion
:39:21. > :39:26.with Hannah. It has been a joy having you with us this morning
:39:27. > :39:33.Inspire us. In 15 or 20 years what are you going to be? A musician or a
:39:34. > :39:36.scientist? I would like to be an astronaut. An astronaut playing and
:39:37. > :39:43.singing and dancing in space. Thank you to Hannah and to our panellists.
:39:44. > :39:45.Britain's Olympians and Paralympians are in the final stages
:39:46. > :39:48.of their training for the greatest sporting event on earth,
:39:49. > :39:51.One of our Paralympians will be Stef Reid, a long-jumper
:39:52. > :39:54.who thought her sporting life was over when she was involved
:39:55. > :39:56.in a boating accident, which nearly killed her.
:39:57. > :39:58.Thankfully, Stef survived and that day became a turning
:39:59. > :40:00.point in her life, spiritually as well as physically.
:40:01. > :40:06.Nikki Bedi went to meet Stef as she prepared to leave for Rio.
:40:07. > :40:13.The Paralympics in Rio, just a few weeks away, how is the training
:40:14. > :40:17.going? The training is going well. I am fit, strong, in shape and
:40:18. > :40:21.excited. You wouldn't be going to the Paralympics, you would not be
:40:22. > :40:25.competing, if it was not for the fact that you had a terrible
:40:26. > :40:30.accident. Can you talk through the accident so we can understand what
:40:31. > :40:36.happened? I was up at my friend s cottage, which is on the lake, and
:40:37. > :40:41.they had a boat. We spent most of the weekend doing what is called
:40:42. > :40:46.tubing, which is when you attach an inner tube to the back of a
:40:47. > :40:51.speedboat and go across the water at crazy speeds. I was in the water and
:40:52. > :40:54.I was just waiting. I saw the boat in the distance heading towards me
:40:55. > :41:00.and I just thought, well, they are just coming to pick me up. But I
:41:01. > :41:04.looked back a split second later and I realised they don't see me. They
:41:05. > :41:10.are going way too fast and there is not much else I could do at that
:41:11. > :41:14.point except hope for the best. I remember seeing the white ridge of
:41:15. > :41:22.the boat as it went over. It was kind of dark for a while. People in
:41:23. > :41:27.the boat were yelling and screaming. I was just noticing that the water
:41:28. > :41:34.all around me was read. Did you fear for your life? They took me to a
:41:35. > :41:39.local clinic. A guy sent for my parents and then it registered what
:41:40. > :41:44.they were doing. He sent them to say goodbye. I did think I was going to
:41:45. > :41:51.die. And what happened to you in that moment? It is incredibly
:41:52. > :41:56.sobering. What if this is it? Where am I going and what has this life
:41:57. > :42:00.meant? Has it been worth it? I feel like I have not lived my life well
:42:01. > :42:10.and the things I have chosen to focus on, Goss, they don't matter.
:42:11. > :42:14.-- gosh. Being on the honour roll, popularity, none of this matters. I
:42:15. > :42:18.felt this weight of I have not done life well and I so badly wanted a
:42:19. > :42:23.second chance to do things better and I promised God in that moment,
:42:24. > :42:29.if you can save me and my life, you can have the rest of it and I will
:42:30. > :42:34.try and do better. What happened then? When did you know that you
:42:35. > :42:38.have lost your foot? My mum came into the recovery room and she was
:42:39. > :42:43.the one who told me, I am so sorry, they had to amputate and they
:42:44. > :42:51.couldn't save you like. It was just so strange to go from such elation
:42:52. > :42:55.to complete devastation. God, why would you save me to then take away
:42:56. > :43:02.the one thing that I loved doing most in life, sport? It was my dream
:43:03. > :43:09.to play rugby internationally and I just kind of decided, you know what,
:43:10. > :43:13.I am going to give the creator of the world the benefit of the doubt
:43:14. > :43:20.and just trust that he has this under his control, even if I can't
:43:21. > :43:25.understand it. I saw you talking about wanting to not only empower
:43:26. > :43:31.other women to take part in Paralympics sports, but also to make
:43:32. > :43:35.it sexy. What did you mean by that? Typically there are two words that
:43:36. > :43:39.you will never hear in the description of somebody with a
:43:40. > :43:45.physical disability. One of them is strong and the other is sexy. For me
:43:46. > :43:52.it is really important that you change that. Did you walk London
:43:53. > :43:56.Fashion Week last year? I did. How was that? Awesome. It was quite
:43:57. > :44:02.nerve wracking. They wanted me to do it in one of my old running blades
:44:03. > :44:05.that had been converted into a stiletto high heel. So often people
:44:06. > :44:10.want to look at my leg but not to stare at it, but this was designed
:44:11. > :44:19.to be stared at. It was a really great thing to be able to put it on
:44:20. > :44:23.display and say, this is beautiful. This is amazing. Look at it.
:44:24. > :44:30.They are cutting off their options. Edwina?
:44:31. > :44:36.Do you ever train together? There are huge advantages and
:44:37. > :44:39.disadvantages to elite athletes being married. On the one hand you
:44:40. > :44:46.get what the other person's going through. But at the same time it's a
:44:47. > :44:52.pretty selfish lifestyle. It's strange, because when you get
:44:53. > :44:57.married you make these vows to do whatever it takes to love them and
:44:58. > :45:01.help them realise their dreams. How do you balance that with at the same
:45:02. > :45:06.time having to be selfish in order to do your best in Rio? It is a hard
:45:07. > :45:12.balance. Do you think you could define yourself without been an
:45:13. > :45:16.athlete? Yes. Actually that was the biggest problem after the accident.
:45:17. > :45:21.That was how I defined myself, as an athlete. I've had that moment of,
:45:22. > :45:25.well, who am I now? I realised what a dangerous situation that is to
:45:26. > :45:29.have your identity wound up in something that isn't permanent.
:45:30. > :45:37.Whatever that is. Whether it's how you look or how much money you have.
:45:38. > :45:47.My worth now at the end of the day comes down to my faith and who I am.
:45:48. > :45:48.Stephanie, we wish you speed, strength, from strength to strength
:45:49. > :45:53.to Rio 2016. Thank you. For the first time in 70 years,
:45:54. > :45:57.women over 40 are having more babies than women under 20,
:45:58. > :45:58.according to Government The average age for becoming
:45:59. > :46:03.a mother today is around 30. As those figures are going up,
:46:04. > :46:06.so are pressures on women to have babies or declare why
:46:07. > :46:10.they're not having babies, according to Hollywood
:46:11. > :46:14.star Jennifer Aniston. Aniston, who's 47, has issued
:46:15. > :46:17.an open letter speaking out against perpetuation of the notion
:46:18. > :46:20.that, as she puts it, women are somehow incomplete,
:46:21. > :46:23.unsuccessful, or unhappy if they So what does this say
:46:24. > :46:27.about our attitudes And do childless men face the same
:46:28. > :46:34.pressures as women? Our question - do we discriminate
:46:35. > :46:38.against childless people? Joining the panel is the comedian
:46:39. > :46:41.and stand-up poet Kate Fox. Emma Woolf is a writer
:46:42. > :46:43.and journalist. And rejoining the panel
:46:44. > :46:56.is the Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin. And Toby stays with us. Thank you.
:46:57. > :47:03.Kate, do we attach too much value to parenthood? Yes, I think we do, on
:47:04. > :47:07.the whole. I think we often attach a particular set of values to
:47:08. > :47:13.parenthood and to motherhood, so you've either got to be a caring,
:47:14. > :47:17.nurturing earth mother, or the Moir who manages to do it all and be the
:47:18. > :47:20.perfect capitalist person who is able to have children, juggle
:47:21. > :47:25.babies, be on the boardroom and everything. And those stories of
:47:26. > :47:30.motherhood are precious. Particularly to mother I have to
:47:31. > :47:37.say, and to those who want to be parents and can't be. I think as one
:47:38. > :47:40.who is happily shield-free, I experience mild mithering around
:47:41. > :47:48.whether I should be a mother. That's all. What do you mean, because you
:47:49. > :47:55.say, I don't want children? Yes for years people would say, are you
:47:56. > :48:01.sure? I'm still not postpone o pausal, so I can't prioritial say,
:48:02. > :48:10.actually that's not a barrier now is it. Rose, once can't forget the
:48:11. > :48:15.comments made by Andrea led many about her attitudes to being a
:48:16. > :48:18.mother and how much she compares about society in comparison the
:48:19. > :48:21.Theresa May, the Prime Minister who hasn't got children. Is it wrong to
:48:22. > :48:25.subject that if you are a parent you have perhaps more concern or you
:48:26. > :48:31.have more to contribute to society? I think we probably are taking this
:48:32. > :48:34.completely out of context. I think children are important to
:48:35. > :48:42.communities, to families, to society as a whole. Perhaps what we've seen
:48:43. > :48:48.here in the UK is a personalisation of it. I take a very Afrocentric
:48:49. > :48:54.view. Long before I was a mother I was a mother because I was an adult
:48:55. > :48:58.female in the community, and there were children. Children. And so I
:48:59. > :49:04.assumed the role. What we need is to allow space for men and women to
:49:05. > :49:08.take on the role of parenthood whether or not they physically give
:49:09. > :49:12.birth to children. Emma, how do you feel, because you would like
:49:13. > :49:15.children. Kate was bringing up attitudes to women who haven't got
:49:16. > :49:19.children, of a certain age. What are your experiences? I would like to
:49:20. > :49:25.have children. It hasn't happened yet. But I just think, I wouldn t
:49:26. > :49:30.use the word discrimination against women but we need to be aware of it
:49:31. > :49:37.from the other side, how it feels, particularly in the light of the
:49:38. > :49:40.Andrea Leadsom comments. My objection wasn't that it had cruel
:49:41. > :49:45.intention but how it feels from the other side and there is quite a gulf
:49:46. > :49:48.if you are childless between you and the women who do have children. I
:49:49. > :49:51.wrote a piece in the Times explaining when you are around other
:49:52. > :49:54.women in their 30s who have children, that's all they talk
:49:55. > :49:59.about, their young children, and that's totally fine. I'm not
:50:00. > :50:04.criticising them. It is more about being honest and being aware of the
:50:05. > :50:09.pain and the many reasons why women don't have children. Some are them
:50:10. > :50:12.are by choice, like Kate. Some by circumstances, maybe they haven t
:50:13. > :50:17.met the right person. It is a whole host of reasons. Jennifer Aniston
:50:18. > :50:21.made the point she is fed up of being defined by this. When you look
:50:22. > :50:25.at the comments of Andrea Leadsom, when it emerged or was said that
:50:26. > :50:30.Theresa May didn't choose not to have children, it just happened that
:50:31. > :50:34.way, does that make it OK? Did it make it OK to not have children
:50:35. > :50:40.because you can't have them rather than choosing not to? No, the choice
:50:41. > :50:45.is valid, between not to have children is sad and valid as well.
:50:46. > :50:49.We don't measure someone like George Clooney, who doesn't have children,
:50:50. > :50:54.why the obsession with Aniston not having children. Toby, have you ever
:50:55. > :50:59.been scrutinied in terms of whether you are a father or not? I have four
:51:00. > :51:02.children, so I'm OK. It is not quite right to say George Clooney is never
:51:03. > :51:11.criticised. I think men this their 40s and 50s who don't have children
:51:12. > :51:15.are often categorised as toxic bachelors, selfish and narcissistic.
:51:16. > :51:21.I don't think we should exaggerate how much criticism there is of women
:51:22. > :51:25.who don't have children. I've read the Jennifer Aniston piece. OK,
:51:26. > :51:33.there's a lot of media attention focused on whether she is or not
:51:34. > :51:39.pregnant, but that's because it would be a massive news story. It
:51:40. > :51:45.wasn't judging, she's read too much into that. Andrea led many's
:51:46. > :51:50.comments... She rejects the suggestion... The mere suggestion
:51:51. > :51:55.that she said that Theresa May would make a worse leader than her before
:51:56. > :51:58.she didn't have children, it was considered so beyond the pale she
:51:59. > :52:08.had to withdraw from the leadership race a couple of days later. It is
:52:09. > :52:14.outrageous to suggest that someone without children wouldn't be as
:52:15. > :52:21.invested in the future. It is not as if society holds that view. But they
:52:22. > :52:30.do. If they do, why did Andrea Leadsom leave the race? Jennifer
:52:31. > :52:34.Aniston is often portrayed as poor, sadever fer without a baby or a
:52:35. > :52:38.husband. There's a strong difference actually. What if Theresa May had
:52:39. > :52:42.been a politician instead who rather than talking about being sadly
:52:43. > :52:48.unable to have children, had said actually I've never wanted children.
:52:49. > :52:52.I don't really like 'em much. Possibly they couldn't have gone
:52:53. > :52:57.that far. I'm thinking of Julia Gillard, the former Australian Prime
:52:58. > :53:06.Minister, who felt she had a certain freedom... And was portrayed as
:53:07. > :53:24.barren. She was culled pursely barn, by one of her adversary. And what
:53:25. > :53:31.What if they said children are a burden and they detract from you
:53:32. > :53:37.doing a job. They are a joy and a pleasure. We are taking this debate
:53:38. > :53:41.to the extreme, focusing on these two political women. Children, they
:53:42. > :53:45.are a gift to us. They are not just the gift to me because I gave birth
:53:46. > :53:52.to them, but they are a gift to the community. We need them, in years to
:53:53. > :53:56.come... If someone chooses not to have them, are they not serving
:53:57. > :54:01.their community? I think everyone that be able to make choices that is
:54:02. > :54:04.important for them. But as you've said, there are some women who is
:54:05. > :54:13.unable, it is not a choice. They can't. Let's find out what our
:54:14. > :54:16.viewers are saying. There are lots of reactions. A lot of people are
:54:17. > :54:22.saying there is discrimination from parents as well as those who don't
:54:23. > :54:54.have any children. And lots of comments about the dads.
:54:55. > :55:00.We've been asking, do we discriminate against childless
:55:01. > :55:04.people. Do we discriminate against parents, Toby? I think one of the
:55:05. > :55:10.reasons why parents imagine that having children makes them better
:55:11. > :55:15.people, more serious morally somehow, is being a parent does
:55:16. > :55:18.involve lots of sacrifices. It is often not much fun. Your life
:55:19. > :55:24.suddenly turns pretty bad when you have lots of children. You can't go
:55:25. > :55:28.on good holidays any more. You have to spend an enormous amount on
:55:29. > :55:31.childcare. It is a bit boring. One of the ways parents try to
:55:32. > :55:35.compensate themselves for the cost of having children is to imagine
:55:36. > :55:40.that people who don't are not as morally serious. They are a bit
:55:41. > :55:45.jealous. We are having a lie-in going on lovely romantic holidays.
:55:46. > :55:48.You don't get the moral high ground basically. Exactly. The suggestion
:55:49. > :55:54.that parenting makes you less selfish, I think it is selfish but
:55:55. > :55:58.about your little Mini-Mees, so it is not unselfish. Kate? And
:55:59. > :56:04.environmentally, there's a strong argument that we are going to be
:56:05. > :56:07.overpopulated massively by 2050 and maybe it is selfless not to have
:56:08. > :56:12.children. On the other hand I felt this week a sea change in attitude
:56:13. > :56:16.to people who choose not to have kids. I was surprised at the counter
:56:17. > :56:22.blast against Andrea Leadsom, quite rightly. But I was surprised at the
:56:23. > :56:25.support. There it feels that we are massively are saying you are a
:56:26. > :56:27.better person if you are a parent. Thank you so much for all of your
:56:28. > :56:34.thoughts. Kate, Emma, Toby, Rose. Thank you to our guests and also
:56:35. > :56:38.to you for your comments And now, as we contemplate
:56:39. > :56:42.the aftermath of the attack in Nice, and in tribute to those
:56:43. > :56:44.who tragically lost their lives we're joined by the London-based
:56:45. > :56:47.French chamber choir Les Fauristes They will sing us out
:56:48. > :56:56.with their version of the French national anthem
:56:57. > :56:59.La Marseillaise. # Allons enfants de la Patrie
:57:00. > :57:11.Le jour de gloire est arrive # Contre nous de la tyrannie,
:57:12. > :57:24.# Entendez-vous dans les campagnes Mugir ces feroces soldats
:57:25. > :57:32.# Ils viennent jusque dans vos bras Egorger vos fils, vos compagnes
:57:33. > :57:37.# Aux armes, citoyens Formez vos bataillons
:57:38. > :58:00.# Qu'un sang impur Abreuve nos sillons!
:58:01. > :58:29.# Allons enfants de la Patrie Le jour de gloire est arrive
:58:30. > :58:40.# Entendez-vous dans les campagnes Mugir ces feroces soldats
:58:41. > :58:45.# Aux armes, citoyens Formez vos bataillons
:58:46. > :59:06.# Qu'un sang impur Abreuve nos sillons!
:59:07. > :59:10.OK, guys, we're about to go live to the world.