:00:00. > :00:13.I'm Jane Hill, standing in for Naga Munchetty.
:00:14. > :00:24.On today's programme: As the Russian drug doping scandal threatens
:00:25. > :00:26.to cast a shadow over the Rio Olympics,
:00:27. > :00:29.we'll ask Olympic gold medalist Tessa Sanderson whether it's
:00:30. > :00:32.possible to kick all the cheats out of the Games.
:00:33. > :00:34.Anger greeted the government's decision this week to delay
:00:35. > :00:35.publishing their Childhood Obesity Strategy.
:00:36. > :00:38.But is it politicians or the public who should take responsibility
:00:39. > :00:45.One father and son team have taken matters into their own hands.
:00:46. > :00:51.Former Destiny's child singer Michelle Williams tells us how
:00:52. > :01:03.Kids can be cruel. Now I am older, I am like, what were they going
:01:04. > :01:05.through? What made them feel like they had to taunt me. I was always
:01:06. > :01:07.sure of me. And we have a gospel choir
:01:08. > :01:10.here to perform for you. # Good morning, and welcome to
:01:11. > :01:38.Sunday Morning Live. Here inside, on the sofa,
:01:39. > :01:44.our guests are raring to go and so is Tommy Sandhu
:01:45. > :01:56.to share your thoughts with us. Good morning. Good to have you here.
:01:57. > :01:58.I will not sing it like the choir bed.
:01:59. > :02:02.You can contact us by Facebook and Twitter.
:02:03. > :02:11.Don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml.
:02:12. > :02:13.Then we can all share the conversation.
:02:14. > :02:16.Standard geographic charges from landlines
:02:17. > :02:23.Texts will be charged at your standard message rate.
:02:24. > :02:31.Email us at sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk.
:02:32. > :02:43.Tessa Sanderson is a six time Olympian, claiming gold
:02:44. > :02:49.Professor Ellis Cashmore is a sociologist who has written
:02:50. > :02:53.Robert Beckford is a theologian who is currently making
:02:54. > :03:00.a radio documentary about cheating in sports.
:03:01. > :03:03.And Adrian Hilton is a conservative academic and author, and the holder
:03:04. > :03:10.We'll find out what for very shortly.
:03:11. > :03:24.With just under two weeks to go until the start of the Olympics,
:03:25. > :03:27.we discovered this week that track and field athletes from Russia
:03:28. > :03:30.will be definitely banned from competing,
:03:31. > :03:32.despite a last minute appeal, and all Russian competitors
:03:33. > :03:36.This comes in the wake of a report by an independent commission
:03:37. > :03:39.of the World Anti-Doping Agency which confirmed evidence
:03:40. > :03:48.of widespread state-sponsored doping by Russian athletes.
:03:49. > :03:53.Doping is nothing new in the Olympics,
:03:54. > :03:55.perhaps the most notorious case coming when Canadian athlete
:03:56. > :03:57.Ben Johnson won Gold in the blue-ribbon event,
:03:58. > :03:59.the 100 metres, in 1988, only to be later stripped
:04:00. > :04:02.of the title after failing a drugs test.
:04:03. > :04:06.Where does this leave the Olympics and sport in general?
:04:07. > :04:10.As doping techniques become more sophisticated, and in the case
:04:11. > :04:12.of Russia, state-sponsored, is it now time to accept that
:04:13. > :04:16.cheating is an unavoidable part of the Olympics?
:04:17. > :04:19.Or will this ban serve as a warning that cheats will fall
:04:20. > :04:29.Our first question this week, can the Olympics be free of cheats?
:04:30. > :04:31.Also joining us down the line from our London
:04:32. > :04:33.newsroom is Dr Paul Dimeo, who specialises in anti-doping
:04:34. > :04:47.We will hear from him a little later. Tessa, I must start with you.
:04:48. > :04:52.When you heard the sheer scale of this, what was going on with Russian
:04:53. > :04:58.athletes, were you surprised? Not exactly. Cheating has been going on
:04:59. > :05:02.for a long time. It has now come to the forefront in a big way. We are
:05:03. > :05:06.recognising now that something has got to be done about it. This has
:05:07. > :05:12.been going on for a very long time, even when I was competing. It is
:05:13. > :05:18.frustrating when you're there, competing, and you're going to meet
:05:19. > :05:22.other competitors, knowing that some people your event were on drugs. You
:05:23. > :05:28.think, my God. You knew that was happening, are you had a suspicion
:05:29. > :05:34.it was happening? We suspected it was happening. We could not prove it
:05:35. > :05:38.at the time, not me personally. Our coach spoke to us, and usually other
:05:39. > :05:42.people talking and things like that. You put it behind you and you
:05:43. > :05:47.ignored it. For me, the main thing was to get out there and kick bot,
:05:48. > :05:52.as we say, and try and win your competition. It is hard taking that
:05:53. > :05:57.on board. I am delighted that had this has happened now. We can try
:05:58. > :06:02.and stand this out. I do not know of the Olympics will be 100% drugs
:06:03. > :06:08.free, but I think we are moving the rate way to stamp it out. As a
:06:09. > :06:15.professional athlete, someone who trained so hard, a gold medal comes
:06:16. > :06:19.at such a massive cost. If you, if fellow athletes, if someone won a
:06:20. > :06:22.silver medal and the thought, the person who won the gold medal, I
:06:23. > :06:27.have suspicions about them, what does that do to your? It kills you
:06:28. > :06:32.inside. You feel that all the hard work that you have put in, that
:06:33. > :06:37.medal should have been yours. But what do you do. You have to sit
:06:38. > :06:42.there and take it on board. You feel frustrated about it. You have worked
:06:43. > :06:47.just as hard and you know it is not a level playing field. That is what
:06:48. > :06:52.sport is supposed to be. The ethos of sport is you start, you go and
:06:53. > :06:56.have fun, but you want to win and be on the podium. You want to be sure
:06:57. > :07:00.that you are their fate and squid and everybody is on the same sort of
:07:01. > :07:06.level when you go out there to compete. Ellis Cashmore, this ban on
:07:07. > :07:11.Russia, it is all track and field at the moment, it may turn out to be
:07:12. > :07:17.all right in athletes. Tessa's point, we have to set an example?
:07:18. > :07:20.People will not feel morally comfortable with the collective
:07:21. > :07:25.band. You're punishing everybody for the transgressions of the few. It
:07:26. > :07:32.might be quite a few, but never the less. It is a savage retribution.
:07:33. > :07:37.What good will it do? People will say this will be the end of doping.
:07:38. > :07:43.They were saying it back in 1988. We are well into the 21st century, and
:07:44. > :07:51.doping is prevalent. I do not think this will do a scrap of good. If
:07:52. > :07:54.they ban all Russian athletes, as a nation, that will probably encourage
:07:55. > :08:00.individuals, because they will think they can get away with it. This came
:08:01. > :08:04.about, not through positive dope test, but through a whistle-blower.
:08:05. > :08:11.Someone squealed on the Russians, Bennett expanded. What is going on
:08:12. > :08:14.at the moment is a massive distraction. There are political
:08:15. > :08:20.mighty nation is going on that we do not know about. Is this not sending
:08:21. > :08:29.out the message that doping is wrong? -- there are political issues
:08:30. > :08:32.going on. It happened in 1988. Never a week goes by without a massive
:08:33. > :08:38.doping case that makes us all see, we need to do something about this.
:08:39. > :08:44.We have to stamp it out. Athletes have made it clear that they are
:08:45. > :08:49.going to take dope and they will always be ahead of the curve. An
:08:50. > :08:52.abundance has been done so blatantly, so clearly, so many. If
:08:53. > :09:01.you do not draw the line somewhere, and do it as they are looking to do
:09:02. > :09:05.now, a total ban, you cannot. Mike Dewar punishing the innocent. I feel
:09:06. > :09:14.for the innocent, the people who are training. In Russia, it has been
:09:15. > :09:18.proven that the majority are doing this. It is blatantly cheating. You
:09:19. > :09:28.have to draw the line for the sake of young people who look on athletes
:09:29. > :09:31.and say, they are our icons. Young people are quite fickle. They will
:09:32. > :09:37.follow their icons and it can lead to death. You're punishing everyone.
:09:38. > :09:42.I am not saying that the innocent people, it is a shame. They are
:09:43. > :09:47.caught up in this. At the end of the day, if you do not draw the line and
:09:48. > :09:51.say, this is the message, you cannot do this, you will be ruining it for
:09:52. > :09:57.the whole of your country, we have got to do it that way. I disagree
:09:58. > :09:59.with what you're saying. There is a potential policy where they are
:10:00. > :10:03.trying to see whether a couple of athletes could go through another
:10:04. > :10:09.testing procedure and compete, not under the Russian flag, they would
:10:10. > :10:13.be independent competitors. Robert Beckford, what does this say about
:10:14. > :10:19.the Olympic ideal? Above all other sports, the Olympics is meant to be
:10:20. > :10:23.the optimum? Completely. We are missing out on the fact that the
:10:24. > :10:28.Olympics and sport is fundamentally about taking part. It is the value
:10:29. > :10:33.and the virtue that one develops by being a competitor. Competition in
:10:34. > :10:37.the true sense, striving together. That is what we have missed. When
:10:38. > :10:41.you make winning everything, which has happened with sport right across
:10:42. > :10:46.the board, we corrupt the idea of competition. We are trying to
:10:47. > :10:51.explore that in a radio documentary, what it means to play and have sport
:10:52. > :10:56.when you approach it with integrity and honesty. Tessa was a fantastic
:10:57. > :11:02.athlete and performed cleanly. The vast majority of athletes want to do
:11:03. > :11:11.that. That is what you are missing out on, Ellis. It is a professional
:11:12. > :11:16.business. Commercial viability has taken over in a big way. We all have
:11:17. > :11:23.to try and go to the next level in our jobs, but you do not cheat the
:11:24. > :11:27.whole world. Robert, you are simply wrong. Athletes do not compete for
:11:28. > :11:32.the joy. They compete to win at all costs. The evidence is before us. I
:11:33. > :11:37.would argue that this part of the problem. What we need to do is
:11:38. > :11:42.educate sportspeople from an early age on the virtue of sport. Sport is
:11:43. > :11:47.good for its own good, it has intrinsic worth. That is what we're
:11:48. > :11:52.out on. The money is part of it, we cannot ignore it, but we have to
:11:53. > :11:55.start with the positive anthropology, encourage people to
:11:56. > :11:59.see the value of working together, being part of the team, and what
:12:00. > :12:04.that can do for your individual well-being as well as the well-being
:12:05. > :12:08.of the group. Adrian Hilton, is some of this about money, because there
:12:09. > :12:13.are athletes out there who do not do it for the money? This is not the
:12:14. > :12:19.sins of the few, it is the sins of the state. If the state is involved
:12:20. > :12:25.in effectively trying to corrupt all, then all should be punished.
:12:26. > :12:32.Then why punish those who resisted the state? Do we know anybody
:12:33. > :12:35.resisted the state? Yes, the McLaren reports suggest that some athletes
:12:36. > :12:40.were forced against their will to take drugs. This has become a cat
:12:41. > :12:45.and mouse game. You detect one drug and another pops up. One person's
:12:46. > :12:51.cheating is another person's caffeine regimen. Kathleen was
:12:52. > :12:59.outlawed until 2004. It is now permitted. In an era when medals are
:13:00. > :13:05.lost on 100th of a second, you can see how that would allow you to go a
:13:06. > :13:08.little bit faster, a little bit longer. That is a grey area. Adrian
:13:09. > :13:14.makes a valid point, what is striking about all of this in the
:13:15. > :13:20.last week, it is state-sponsored? They were swapping the urine samples
:13:21. > :13:27.through a hole in the wall. Let's not kid ourselves. Every country in
:13:28. > :13:32.the world has drug cheats. It is going on everywhere. While our
:13:33. > :13:37.narrowly on Russia, we have a fall guy, a scapegoat. As long as we
:13:38. > :13:43.kicked Russia out of the Olympics, we will be OK, we will have a clean
:13:44. > :13:47.Olympics at Rio coming up. I do not think the governing body would have
:13:48. > :13:52.made that decision on the basis of, let's keep Russia out. What they
:13:53. > :13:56.have done, rightly so, they have said that this is our sport, we want
:13:57. > :14:01.to keep it clean, we want a level playing field. We want some of the
:14:02. > :14:09.fun. We want to make sure that everyone wins cleanly. They had to
:14:10. > :14:15.make the decision they did. Sorry. Some brain doping is not detectable.
:14:16. > :14:21.Transcranial direct stimulation exists. Let's speak to Paul Dimeo.
:14:22. > :14:31.Thank you for joining us, Dr Paul Dimeo. Is it widespread? In your
:14:32. > :14:34.experience, to your knowledge, is it more widespread than people watching
:14:35. > :14:40.this morning realised? Yes, I would say it is. The best estimates from
:14:41. > :14:45.experts and social scientists is probably between 10-20% across the
:14:46. > :14:50.board. In some sports, that is law and in some sports it is higher. I
:14:51. > :14:57.would say yes, at the moment they are fighting a battle which is
:14:58. > :15:01.uphill. As Ellis points out, every country has had positive tests over
:15:02. > :15:06.the last few years. Historically, it has never been tackled properly.
:15:07. > :15:10.There are numerous countries we do not know much about because they are
:15:11. > :15:13.doing very little testing. While Russia was testing and covering it
:15:14. > :15:18.up, there are certain countries which we do not know anything about.
:15:19. > :15:19.I think this line between who is clean and who is dirty is very
:15:20. > :15:29.blurred. I take that on board in the sense
:15:30. > :15:33.that we know it is not just Russia, it is going on in other countries.
:15:34. > :15:39.But what we are led to believe right now is... I didn't really realise
:15:40. > :15:45.before that they are sponsored to do something like this in your country.
:15:46. > :15:50.But all of this must suggest that we should put resources and energy into
:15:51. > :15:56.catching the cheap. Even more of an effort, so that we can reaffirm the
:15:57. > :16:02.values of sport. Can I turn it on its head, what if all doping was
:16:03. > :16:06.allowed? Would that count as a level playing field? Ellis, you said if
:16:07. > :16:11.athletics lifted its ban, its problems would vanish. Why so?
:16:12. > :16:16.Doping was legal in sport up until the 70s, then they changed the
:16:17. > :16:20.rules, largely to protect athletes rather than catch cheats. They were
:16:21. > :16:24.not cheap then, of course. I think the time has arrived where we had to
:16:25. > :16:30.admit defeat in one sense and say that the war on doping will never be
:16:31. > :16:33.won, so let's try to create a safer environment, an environment in which
:16:34. > :16:38.athletes can use whatever dope they like, but we ask them to declare it
:16:39. > :16:41.so we can monitor that they are using it safely, that the substances
:16:42. > :16:47.are pure and they are not parroting their health. At the moment, they
:16:48. > :16:51.are. I think that, really and truly, you can't have a level playing field
:16:52. > :16:56.like that, to be taking drugs for everybody. Unless it is legally
:16:57. > :16:59.prescribed by your doctor, I am not really for that. I really think it
:17:00. > :17:06.should be stamped out, there has to be an example. That the problems
:17:07. > :17:09.with heart and things like that out there, you try to take illegal drugs
:17:10. > :17:15.would she think might push you to the next mile for you to do well, we
:17:16. > :17:21.have a problems. -- try to take illegal drugs which you think might.
:17:22. > :17:26.We have to try to stamp it out. It sends a very bad message to young
:17:27. > :17:29.people. You don't do an hour of PE because you can do 15 minutes and
:17:30. > :17:35.you can make up for the rest with dope. It is a myth, dope does not
:17:36. > :17:40.win races like that, it means you can train harder and longer, that is
:17:41. > :17:46.all. It is not the magic bullet. But a young person going through, young
:17:47. > :17:50.people who look at their icons, they do not go through the facts and
:17:51. > :17:59.think doping does not make you win, because if that person has won you
:18:00. > :18:04.would think, I will do that! A young person looking on and seeing
:18:05. > :18:09.everybody... Oh, their icons are taking drugs, nothing is done about
:18:10. > :18:12.it, I think that can lead to the detriment of the sport. That we
:18:13. > :18:18.could do something about it, it could be to make the sport safer for
:18:19. > :18:23.them. -- but we could do some thing about it. Tommy, what are the
:18:24. > :18:26.viewers saying? I think some of the panel might be on something was
:18:27. > :18:30.morning! Just Kathleen?! Lots of people are
:18:31. > :18:35.saying that the Olympics will never be free of cheats, others think it
:18:36. > :18:40.is unfair to ban those who test negative. An anonymous text says the
:18:41. > :18:44.best way to stop drug cheats is to ban anyone found cheating for life,
:18:45. > :18:48.but the authorities seem scared of doing this. Elaine says I think it
:18:49. > :18:51.is very unfair to ban all the Russians and, of course, Russia is
:18:52. > :18:55.not the only place where this is happening. Thomas says, no,
:18:56. > :19:00.athletics is straight up corrupt and that is just the waiters. Vincenzo
:19:01. > :19:05.says any human activity involving a lot of money will always attract
:19:06. > :19:08.cheats and swindlers, the Olympics is no exception. That is the point
:19:09. > :19:13.Ellis was making about wanting to win. Helen says yes, but only of any
:19:14. > :19:17.failed drugs test results in the whole team being sent home
:19:18. > :19:25.immediately. The issue seems to be that it takes time to send the
:19:26. > :19:30.cheats. Athletics is corrupt, a very strong statement? I think the ethics
:19:31. > :19:34.are corrupt. When you affirm winning at all costs, you basically say to
:19:35. > :19:38.any athlete that anything is permissible as long as you win. I
:19:39. > :19:41.think we need to think more carefully about sporting ethics, the
:19:42. > :19:47.values that we teach all the way through the system. Play, in the
:19:48. > :19:51.classic theological sense, is a gift from God. It is something we should
:19:52. > :19:56.all enjoy and do because it has intrinsic value within itself. I
:19:57. > :19:58.think we should strive for that, keep working against the cheats,
:19:59. > :20:04.because that is the higher ethic that we should support. But it is a
:20:05. > :20:10.fairy story, it will not happen. It is like much of life, it is what you
:20:11. > :20:13.strive for despite the opposition. I think you starting from a position
:20:14. > :20:18.suggesting athletes want to cheat, I don't think they do. I would like to
:20:19. > :20:23.bring in Paul, he knows so much about this. It is a very big
:20:24. > :20:29.question to end on, what in the broadest sense do we do? Do you
:20:30. > :20:34.argue that testing is getting a lot better and that it will pick up more
:20:35. > :20:37.cheats, what are your thoughts going forward? The problem with testing is
:20:38. > :20:41.that it is not really getting much better. Since Wada started
:20:42. > :20:47.collecting international data there has been almost a doubling in the
:20:48. > :20:54.number of tests collected, from 130,000 to over 280,000. The number
:20:55. > :20:58.of positives returned stays much the same, just over 2%. It seems as if
:20:59. > :21:02.the drug users are always ahead of the game. I am concerned that doping
:21:03. > :21:07.and cheating being equated as the same thing. Whereas a lot of doping
:21:08. > :21:12.cases are drugs which do not really enhance performance, they have taken
:21:13. > :21:16.an inadvertently or in small dosages, this idea that all dopers
:21:17. > :21:21.are cheats and corrupting the sport is a little bit overstated. Many
:21:22. > :21:25.thank you, Paul. Thank you for your expertise and thank you for all of
:21:26. > :21:29.you. That is enough caffeine for now. One last point with Tessa, you
:21:30. > :21:35.are the one with an Olympic gold medal, what is your message as we
:21:36. > :21:40.sit down and, one hopes, enjoyed a Rio Olympics? What is your message
:21:41. > :21:45.to future and young people who want to be inspired? You can win without
:21:46. > :21:49.cheating, simple as that. You can win without cheating. I have done
:21:50. > :21:54.it. It is sad that the innocent are caught up in this, but you can win
:21:55. > :21:55.without it cheating. Thank you very much, Teza. Plenty more debate to
:21:56. > :21:57.come. Still to come on Sunday Morning
:21:58. > :22:00.Live: Former Destiny's Child singer Michelle Williams tells us
:22:01. > :22:12.what it was like singing for I was trying not to look at the
:22:13. > :22:16.President and First Lady singing, but then I made sure I made eye
:22:17. > :22:18.contact with both of them, just to encourage them and let them know,
:22:19. > :22:23.I'm here for you, I got you. Theresa May has decided to delay
:22:24. > :22:26.the publication of the Government's child anti-obesity strategy
:22:27. > :22:32.to the autumn. The decision comes despite pleas
:22:33. > :22:37.from NHS chief Simon Stevens and and TV chef Jamie Oliver
:22:38. > :22:39.for the new Prime Minister to act swiftly to tackle
:22:40. > :22:43.the growing obesity crisis. On Monday, local councils in England
:22:44. > :22:46.also warned that Government cuts to public health funding
:22:47. > :22:48.could hamper their efforts The charity Action On Sugar warns
:22:49. > :22:56.that obesity will bankrupt the NHS But is it up to the Government
:22:57. > :23:04.to keep us in shape, or should people take more
:23:05. > :23:07.responsibility for their size? Well, two sons decided
:23:08. > :23:11.to take their dad's weight issues into their own hands and make
:23:12. > :23:13.a documentary about it. It's called Fixing Dad
:23:14. > :23:26.and is on BBC Two tonight. He's a fantastic dad, he's been a
:23:27. > :23:30.brilliant dad and he's a brilliant grandad. And if we don't do
:23:31. > :23:34.something about it, no one else is going to. Everything from cancer,
:23:35. > :23:43.heart attacks, strokes, kidney failure, buying this, impotence, it
:23:44. > :23:46.will all be much more likely. And if there is a way of fixing that,
:23:47. > :23:56.surely we need to look into it and challenge it. How are you feeling?
:23:57. > :24:01.Stressed. What is the point in doing it? To make you learn how to do it.
:24:02. > :24:07.Or to be out of my comfort zone? Yet? Why?
:24:08. > :24:13.-- put me out of my comfort zone, yes? Why?
:24:14. > :24:20.Unbelievable! There certainly seems
:24:21. > :24:25.like there were plenty of ups Geoff Whitington and one
:24:26. > :24:30.of his sons, Anthony, Lovely to have you with us. You were
:24:31. > :24:38.wearing lycra earlier, Geoff! The journalist Carole Malone,
:24:39. > :24:40.a previous participant in Celebrity Fit Club,
:24:41. > :24:41.is here too. And body image campaigner
:24:42. > :24:46.Fatima Parker. Also joining us down
:24:47. > :24:50.the line from our Bristol newsroom is Dr Dawn Harper,
:24:51. > :25:02.a TV doctor and GP. Geoff, I have to start with you. I
:25:03. > :25:08.am told you have lost an awful lot of weight, how much? Seven stone
:25:09. > :25:13.now. In what period? Since 2013. Pretty quickly. The got the first
:25:14. > :25:18.eight months was the big one, they said this challenge that I had to
:25:19. > :25:22.lose quite a bit, I lost about 5.5 stone in eight months.
:25:23. > :25:26.It has been progressing since then. They is your two sons, one of whom
:25:27. > :25:31.is here. What happened, and Thiney, how come you and your brother
:25:32. > :25:35.decided to turn the tables and become apparent, almost, and said
:25:36. > :25:39.you had to do something about this? It was and still is sometimes a
:25:40. > :25:44.strange role reversal. We saw that dad had tried so many times to lose
:25:45. > :25:48.weight and always put back on, so there was something else going on.
:25:49. > :25:52.We set it into fit this, nutrition and mind, we said we would tackle
:25:53. > :25:56.those areas and hopefully by doing something more holistic we would get
:25:57. > :26:01.to the root of it. Put some pressure on sticking with the diet. That has
:26:02. > :26:07.captured people's imaginations. It will hopefully inspire a lot of
:26:08. > :26:10.people. You were worried from health perspective? What was your main
:26:11. > :26:18.motivation? A big fear was around the foot, he was incredulous, very
:26:19. > :26:22.poor circulation in his foot, the bones had collapsed in one and he
:26:23. > :26:26.had diabetic ulcers on the other to do with type 2 diabetes, he was
:26:27. > :26:33.having pretty grim conversations about potentially losing his foot if
:26:34. > :26:37.things did not turn. The second but probably more significant thing was
:26:38. > :26:41.the mental side of things. He was depressed. When we look back at it
:26:42. > :26:46.now, we knew that. He had withdrawn from conversations become much more
:26:47. > :26:52.of a recluse, was not seeing the grandchildren as much. We wanted the
:26:53. > :26:56.old Geoff back. Carole, you have gone through your own ups and downs,
:26:57. > :27:00.what do you make of this? It is a fantastic story. The difference is
:27:01. > :27:05.that you have kept it off and I have not. I have lost weight four or five
:27:06. > :27:09.times in my life, it is really difficult. It is incredible that
:27:10. > :27:13.they have done this as a family, I think that if you are fat you have
:27:14. > :27:16.to take personal responsibility. The fact that Theresa May has delayed
:27:17. > :27:21.the childhood obesity thing, I don't think it matters. Governance can't
:27:22. > :27:25.legislate how many calories you eat and how much exercise you do, people
:27:26. > :27:30.have to want to lose weight, we are not doing it as a society. 60% of
:27:31. > :27:34.adults in Britain are overweight, 30% of kids, we are not giving
:27:35. > :27:39.anything about it. Governments can't. There has to be a cultural
:27:40. > :27:44.change. The fat has to become Nasa in the way that smoking did,
:27:45. > :27:50.currently it is not. -- being fat pads to become naff. But we are
:27:51. > :27:55.making bigger clothes, wider train and plane seats. We tiptoe around
:27:56. > :27:59.it. Doctors were recently told not to point out to overweight children
:28:00. > :28:03.or adults that they were fat because it would humiliate and stigmatise
:28:04. > :28:08.them. But we have to get over that. Better to humiliate a child than
:28:09. > :28:12.have them at the age of 15 having a heart attack or getting a cancer,
:28:13. > :28:21.because one in five cancers are caused by obesity. Fatima, Carole
:28:22. > :28:25.says that smoking is to be considered OK, the smoking ban
:28:26. > :28:29.changed attitudes, so her argument is that size and weight has to
:28:30. > :28:35.become like the smoking issue? This is not a new, this has been
:28:36. > :28:39.happening for hundreds of years. 100 years at least and over the last 50
:28:40. > :28:44.years we have seen fat shaming. Where do you see the glamorising of
:28:45. > :28:53.fat people? The gal I am not fat shaming. You are fat shaming the
:28:54. > :28:58.public and yourself. I have hurt you in the Green room as King for advice
:28:59. > :29:05.about losing weight. It will kill me if I don't. No, dear, it will kill
:29:06. > :29:13.you to yo-yo dieter, up and down. It is not only fat people who had to
:29:14. > :29:17.take care of themselves, everybody. He said that his father was
:29:18. > :29:24.depressed because he was fat. He felt rejected by society. Why should
:29:25. > :29:29.you reject fat people? I am not. You are. I am not excavation at your
:29:30. > :29:33.speech, children listening now will commit suicide some of them, it is
:29:34. > :29:40.2016 and you are saying the fat thing. Saying the nation should be
:29:41. > :29:44.healthier... But not thinner. Fatima, the audience will not have
:29:45. > :29:49.heard what was said in the green room. Let's try to explain some of
:29:50. > :29:54.it. You have used the phrase fat shaming, one of the issues we are
:29:55. > :29:58.talking about is that there are undeniable health implications of
:29:59. > :29:59.being overweight, the risk of diabetes is much higher. Scare
:30:00. > :30:15.tactics. There are health issues. There are limping to over ?300. The
:30:16. > :30:25.athlete would no that. They run in America. We need to stop the fact
:30:26. > :30:30.shaming. -- fat. It is about health and saving the lives of children.
:30:31. > :30:35.You insult my body, my ship, you have insulted fat people. I have
:30:36. > :30:43.not, I am a fat person. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:30:44. > :30:57.We need a society to be healthy, not thin. I am healthy. As my GP. I will
:30:58. > :31:02.have to interrupt. Certain things you have said, I am absolutely
:31:03. > :31:09.forth. I do think that one has to take responsibility for yourself. We
:31:10. > :31:15.are looking at evidence that has been proven, heart problems, things
:31:16. > :31:19.like that, what we call obesity. I do feel that people have to take
:31:20. > :31:28.control of themselves, exercise lots. Myself, personally, I have
:31:29. > :31:31.lost three stone. I feel great. But that is me personally. I commend
:31:32. > :31:38.you, because I feel much more healthy. You must feel healthier, to
:31:39. > :31:44.do lots more things, and the psychological aspects as well. Your
:31:45. > :31:49.life Buzz is better if you take control and feel, this is the size
:31:50. > :31:53.would I feel healthier. Let's stop a moment and speak to Doctor Dawn
:31:54. > :31:56.Harper in Bristol. You have the medical expert knowledge. Is it
:31:57. > :32:02.possible to be overweight and still be very healthy? Talk us through,
:32:03. > :32:09.from your perspective as a doctor, the medical applications. I will
:32:10. > :32:14.tell you when I am coming from. I believe that obesity could actually
:32:15. > :32:19.bankrupt our NHS. We have heard from Carole, two thirds of British adults
:32:20. > :32:24.are overweight. At the moment, there are 3.2 million people with diabetes
:32:25. > :32:30.in the UK. 90% of those have type two diabetes. That is almost always,
:32:31. > :32:36.not always, but almost always link to lifestyle and being overweight.
:32:37. > :32:46.At the moment, we spend ?1 million an hour, every single hour, treating
:32:47. > :32:52.diabetes on the NHS. We are also making 400 new diagnoses every day.
:32:53. > :32:56.By 2025, we will have 5 million people in the UK with diabetes. You
:32:57. > :33:01.do not need to be a mathematician to know that the NHS will not be able
:33:02. > :33:06.to afford that. We have to wake up and smell the copy. Carole's point
:33:07. > :33:11.is valid. We have normalised being overweight. I would even say in my
:33:12. > :33:16.surgery, occasionally dabble think that I need to weigh and measure
:33:17. > :33:22.someone, calculate their body mass index, and I am expecting them to be
:33:23. > :33:27.overweight, and they are actually clinically obese. We are used to
:33:28. > :33:31.seeing bigger people. This is not about fashion, how you feel, it is
:33:32. > :33:36.about how healthy or unhealthy you are on the inside. We have got to be
:33:37. > :33:41.realistic about this. When I first joined General practice, if I made
:33:42. > :33:45.the diagnosis of type two diabetes, that diagnosis was met with fear.
:33:46. > :33:49.People know it is a series condition. By the time you're
:33:50. > :33:53.diagnosed with that, you have a 50% chance of already having
:33:54. > :34:00.complications, series complications, heart disease, the risk of a stroke,
:34:01. > :34:05.kidney disease, going blind. We amputate a lens every single week on
:34:06. > :34:10.the NHS because of type two diabetes. You have outlined the
:34:11. > :34:16.medical risk factors. What should we be doing about it? I say we, should
:34:17. > :34:21.society, the government be doing more? What is the solution, you're
:34:22. > :34:25.talking in strong terms? There is not one thing that is going to fix
:34:26. > :34:30.this. We're talking about government strategies and so on, and that is
:34:31. > :34:41.great. It is not just the government. I have a responsibility,
:34:42. > :34:44.for example, as an individual, as a mother, as a doctor, as a
:34:45. > :34:46.broadcaster. Whatever had I am wearing at the time, we all have a
:34:47. > :34:52.responsibility to do something about this. If we do not, we'll will lose
:34:53. > :34:57.the NHS. I speak about the NHS as if she is mum. For most people who have
:34:58. > :35:00.been born in the UK, she has always been around. She may not be perfect
:35:01. > :35:05.and you may think that occasionally she lets you down, but she has your
:35:06. > :35:11.best interests at heart, and when you have lost, you will miss her.
:35:12. > :35:15.Thank you for your expertise. Let's find out what people have been
:35:16. > :35:19.saying. Lots of people agree that there is intense pressure on the
:35:20. > :35:21.NHS. Others argue it is down to individuals to take their lives into
:35:22. > :36:11.their own hands. Interesting, Tommy, thank you so
:36:12. > :36:16.much. I want to come back to you, Geoff and Anthony. Really you had
:36:17. > :36:20.enormous family help, lots of support. I am sure that this
:36:21. > :36:26.extraordinarily beneficial. I would say it is crucial. You have got to
:36:27. > :36:31.do it together. I was the one with the problem, yes, and I blamed
:36:32. > :36:35.myself at the time. It was my fault. Is there a role for government? You
:36:36. > :36:41.had the get up and go to change your life. I do things the government
:36:42. > :36:44.should do? Yes, most of the information we're getting out there
:36:45. > :36:49.is totally wrong. Everything I have been told about how to deal with my
:36:50. > :36:52.diabetes was totally wrong. The guidelines are totally wrong. What
:36:53. > :36:58.we are being given by the food industry, there is nothing there
:36:59. > :37:01.that is good for you. What Don said about hospitals, let's get the
:37:02. > :37:06.vending machines full of hospital -- full of rubbish out of the
:37:07. > :37:10.hospitals. We are advocates of personal responsibility. We took
:37:11. > :37:15.three years to solve this problem in our father. You talk about personal
:37:16. > :37:20.responsibility, even his own family, apart from what we were trying to
:37:21. > :37:23.do, only he could do this. He had tried before so something had to
:37:24. > :37:28.change. Thank you so much. Fantastic to have
:37:29. > :37:29.you with us. Another debate that will clearly continue. Thank you for
:37:30. > :37:38.your comments as well. A reminder that you can
:37:39. > :37:40.see Geoff and Anthony, along with his brother Ian,
:37:41. > :37:42.in the documentary Fixing Dad Michelle Williams found fame as one
:37:43. > :37:46.third of global singing # say my name. # are love you. -- I
:37:47. > :38:01.love you. Despite international superstardom
:38:02. > :38:03.and chart topping success, she has said that gospel music
:38:04. > :38:06.is her passion, and earlier this week performed at the BBC
:38:07. > :38:09.Gospel Prom at the Royal Albert Hall from leading gospel groups,
:38:10. > :38:13.coming together to form Nikki Bedi met her to discuss
:38:14. > :38:32.the impact gospel music has had on her since she first performed
:38:33. > :38:35.at the age of seven, and how she thinks music can help
:38:36. > :38:51.bring people together. When was the point that you realise
:38:52. > :38:54.that your voice was something that you could not neglect, that you
:38:55. > :39:01.wanted to use professionally, and personally? I was singing in the
:39:02. > :39:09.school choir. We had an engagement somewhere. I was singing Reach Out
:39:10. > :39:15.And Touch. I had the lead on the song. Something came over me. I will
:39:16. > :39:19.never forget the feeling. It was like my entire body was flushed with
:39:20. > :39:23.warmth. I did not know what happened, but I felt like at that
:39:24. > :39:30.moment I was blessed, something happened. Spiritually or something.
:39:31. > :39:34.Just a feeling came over me. Something that let me know, you have
:39:35. > :39:43.a voice. Do you know all the words to that song? # reach out and touch
:39:44. > :39:47.somebody's hand. # make this world a better place, if you can. When did
:39:48. > :39:54.you move from being part of the Church choir into pop music? How did
:39:55. > :39:59.that happen? Even in college, I was singing in a choir. I got a phone
:40:00. > :40:04.call in my second year of studies. He said he is going on tour with the
:40:05. > :40:09.singer by the name of Monica. She is a massive fire and be superstar. I
:40:10. > :40:17.got the chance to edition and sing background for her. -- R
:40:18. > :40:20.superstar. That opened my eyes to the fact I could do this
:40:21. > :40:32.professionally and make money. Then I got the opportunity to join
:40:33. > :40:37.Destiny's Child. Such a massive band, such incredible hits. There
:40:38. > :40:41.must have been pressures that came with the fame associated with the
:40:42. > :40:47.group? To this day, I still get uncomfortable. Sometimes I feel like
:40:48. > :40:56.I want to do my music, and yes, have a platform to go on TV, but to be
:40:57. > :41:01.recognised, I am still shy. You have spoken about feeling depression.
:41:02. > :41:08.What triggers depression for you? How did you manage it? How do you
:41:09. > :41:13.manage it? Fame and money exposes you, the vulnerabilities, you're in
:41:14. > :41:18.securities, your imperfections. I had never dealt with the inner
:41:19. > :41:24.issues that I had, and somehow, for some reason, they come out when you
:41:25. > :41:30.are an adult. What was it for you? For me, it was bullying. Kids can be
:41:31. > :41:34.cruel. Now I am older, I am like, what were they going through? Who
:41:35. > :41:39.made them feel like they were not good enough, why did they have to
:41:40. > :41:46.taunt someone? How important is your faith? It is number one, above
:41:47. > :41:51.anything. If nothing ever wavers, it is never my faith. I may get down,
:41:52. > :42:01.but I know there is faith. I know I can tap into it and reach for it.
:42:02. > :42:13.# that gives me strength. You did the Gospel prom at the Royal lab at
:42:14. > :42:21.all. Tell me how that felt. -- Albert Hall. Honey. It was amazing.
:42:22. > :42:26.I had to make sure I had a moment when I was in the moment. The moment
:42:27. > :42:35.I allowed myself that, I almost cried tears. I could not believe the
:42:36. > :42:40.amazing is that end -- I could not believe the amazing sound that was
:42:41. > :42:46.coming from the Albert Hall. I was inspired by the races and cultures.
:42:47. > :42:51.People, we were one. Even if it was just for 65 minutes. That is why I
:42:52. > :42:58.know there is goodness in this world. I was like, if we can just
:42:59. > :42:59.multiply this entire hall by millions, it would cancel out all
:43:00. > :43:11.the evil. You have been on stage, you have
:43:12. > :43:17.been on film. You sang at the White House, for President Obama. What was
:43:18. > :43:19.that like? It was an amazing experience, the first time that
:43:20. > :43:25.gospel music had ever been sung at the White House, to give gospel
:43:26. > :43:31.music platform. That is massive, to me. I was trying not to look at the
:43:32. > :43:35.President and the first Lady, singing. I made sure I made eye
:43:36. > :43:41.contact with both of them, to encourage them, to let them know, I
:43:42. > :43:44.am here for you, I have got you, I'll of you, I thank you for
:43:45. > :43:49.everything you have done for our country. I hope I can partner with
:43:50. > :43:55.them and whatever image it is they have going on post-presidency. When
:43:56. > :44:00.you're on stage, performing a gospel peace and singing, does it feel very
:44:01. > :44:05.different from being on stage when using pop music? Whether I am
:44:06. > :44:10.singing gospel music, contemporary gospel song, or whether I am singing
:44:11. > :44:13.Survivor, there is something in there I can find that his
:44:14. > :44:21.inspirational that I can tap into, to connect with people. As long as
:44:22. > :44:24.my spirituality and my faith can bring somebody closer to what I
:44:25. > :44:29.believe, then I have done my job. Michelle Williams there
:44:30. > :44:42.on the unifying power of music. Someone to full Gospel music coming
:44:43. > :44:44.at the end of the programme as well. -- some wonderful gospel music.
:44:45. > :44:47.Later today the Pope joins young Catholics from around the world
:44:48. > :44:51.Catholics see it as an opportunity - as the organisers put it -
:44:52. > :44:54.to share with the whole world the hope of many young people
:44:55. > :44:56.who want to commit themselves to Christ and others.
:44:57. > :44:59.But what is happening to Christianity here in the UK?
:45:00. > :45:02.Figures show that for the first time more of us identify as non-religious
:45:03. > :45:04.than religious, and many churches are seeing dwindling numbers
:45:05. > :45:08.A new book takes aim at the Church of England,
:45:09. > :45:11.claiming that most of us now view it as out of touch with
:45:12. > :45:16.Tommy's been out and about to see what the Church of England
:45:17. > :45:18.and its leader - the Archbishop of Canterbury,
:45:19. > :45:35.People on his home patch. We are in Canterbury, celebrated by
:45:36. > :45:39.the poet Chaucer 's most famous work, to find out if anybody knows
:45:40. > :45:44.who this guy is. It is the principal leader of the Church of England, but
:45:45. > :45:51.how relevant is the Church in modern day Britain? Who is this person? I
:45:52. > :45:57.don't know, sorry. Vicar of England, of the Church. Archbishop of
:45:58. > :46:01.Canterbury. Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury. He is
:46:02. > :46:06.trying to do more to do most people going to church, is it still
:46:07. > :46:10.relevant in modern day Britain? Face means many different things to many
:46:11. > :46:15.different people. I don't see the relevance in modern day, an update
:46:16. > :46:20.with the times of what people think and beliefs. Lots of people don't go
:46:21. > :46:26.to church, I don't go as much as I should. But it may be relevant to
:46:27. > :46:31.get the community spirit together. Is the Church relevant in modern day
:46:32. > :46:37.Britain? Maybe for some people, not for me. I believe it at that. I
:46:38. > :46:41.don't go as regularly as my mum, but special services, Christmas and
:46:42. > :46:46.Easter, it is nice because you get with your family. How is the Church
:46:47. > :46:50.relevant in modern Britain? I don't think it is. Our country is
:46:51. > :46:56.cosmopolitan, multicultural. You believe what you want to believe. I
:46:57. > :46:59.think it can be a spiritual place, where you can think about your
:47:00. > :47:05.faith, think about others and how you can help community. It can be so
:47:06. > :47:10.stressful and rushed in the modern day that there is no time to think
:47:11. > :47:15.about the bigger things. Orlando Bloom is from Canterbury, so is the
:47:16. > :47:19.model Jodie Kidd, who is the coolest one out of the three, the
:47:20. > :47:27.Archbishop, an actor or a model? Orlando Bloom. I have known him
:47:28. > :47:31.since he was this high, so probably. He is probably less known than they
:47:32. > :47:43.are. He was coolest, the Archbishop, Geordie -- Jodie Kidd or Orlando
:47:44. > :47:45.Bloom? He is, he still looks cool. I love that, the Archbishop is cool!
:47:46. > :47:47.So our question - is the Church still relevant?
:47:48. > :47:50.Joining the panel, Linda Woodhead, one of the authors of
:47:51. > :47:53.That Was The Church That Was: How the Church of England Lost
:47:54. > :47:56.And rejoining the panel is Adrian Hilton, Ellis Cashmore
:47:57. > :48:08.Linda, you have written this new book, I must start with you. That is
:48:09. > :48:12.quite a contention, the idea that the Church is not relevant. Some
:48:13. > :48:15.people watching might say, we have bishops in the House of Lords, how
:48:16. > :48:20.much more establishment and part of the fabric of English life can you
:48:21. > :48:24.get? It is still the established national church, but in an odd
:48:25. > :48:29.situation, has fewer and fewer people have any affiliation to it.
:48:30. > :48:35.When I was young, being Anglican, CRV, was just what you were. My
:48:36. > :48:39.local school was Church of England, you went to Christmas services, it
:48:40. > :48:45.was just part of life, almost unquestioned. Now that has gone. The
:48:46. > :48:50.majority of people in this country call themselves nonreligious. A huge
:48:51. > :48:54.turning point. In that sense, we are no longer a Christian country and
:48:55. > :48:58.the Church of England, the largest church, has seen the largest
:48:59. > :49:03.decline. We are looking at that and explaining that in the book. Is a
:49:04. > :49:09.worry for you? You were brought up Anglican, does it concern you? It
:49:10. > :49:13.does. I was baptised Anglican and have always been a member of the
:49:14. > :49:18.Church of England. As well is studying this process I have lived
:49:19. > :49:22.through it. It is a sadness to me, the Church that I care about and
:49:23. > :49:27.have faith in, I feel it has gone in a different direction and left the
:49:28. > :49:30.people of England behind. It does not have the relevance, it is not
:49:31. > :49:37.the centre of our life and there is not room for most people to fully
:49:38. > :49:41.participate. Adrian, it is just not relevant in the modern world? People
:49:42. > :49:46.have been questioning the viability of the Church of England since 1534,
:49:47. > :49:50.and the relevance of the Church in England since 597, one Augustine
:49:51. > :49:55.Loof established his seat in Canterbury. These issues are not
:49:56. > :50:01.new. What concerns me is the sociologist' obsession with viewing
:50:02. > :50:05.Church through a certain lens, asking certain questions of certain
:50:06. > :50:09.people and having a conceptual framework which reigns how you
:50:10. > :50:14.interpret your data and lead to conclusions. If you focus on issues
:50:15. > :50:18.of division and relevance, you will find dichotomies and tensions,
:50:19. > :50:22.because human beings have those tensions. The Church is about the
:50:23. > :50:28.whole of human flourishing, that is its relevance. You are making it,
:50:29. > :50:33.located but it is simple. The majority of people over 60 call
:50:34. > :50:38.themselves Christian, people under 20, it is less than one in ten. But
:50:39. > :50:47.that is one sociological dimension, it is much more nuanced. In
:50:48. > :50:51.cathedrals, for example, they are flourishing, reducing more than ?200
:50:52. > :50:58.million a year for the Inland Revenue. -- producing more than. It
:50:59. > :51:05.is flourishing in some parts, and some parts are struggling. Linda is
:51:06. > :51:10.pointing to the age demographics. For younger people in this country,
:51:11. > :51:18.is it still elephant? Is that a problem, for you? -- is it still
:51:19. > :51:24.relevant? The Church is not a singular institution, not
:51:25. > :51:27.homogenous. If we are looking particularly at the Church of
:51:28. > :51:31.England and a white English demographic then, yeah, there are
:51:32. > :51:37.serious issues of decline and an ageing population who go to church.
:51:38. > :51:39.That is not true with West African Christianity, Afro-Caribbean
:51:40. > :51:44.Christianity in Britain. Whilst we can affirm there is a problem within
:51:45. > :51:47.Anglicanism, according to the metrics you have used, it is not
:51:48. > :51:53.true across-the-board. That is really true and really important.
:51:54. > :51:56.England is an usual, only about five countries in the world have a
:51:57. > :52:00.nonreligious majority. I am not saying that the secularisation is
:52:01. > :52:07.right and that religion will disappear, the world as Ahold is
:52:08. > :52:10.more religious than ever. -- the world as a whole. Some country
:52:11. > :52:16.similar to us more Christian than ever, it is an issue with England
:52:17. > :52:22.and its particular churches. The Vice Ellis Cashmore, do you think it
:52:23. > :52:26.is a problem? No. Religion does two things, the first is that it
:52:27. > :52:31.responds to human curiosity about how things work and why they are
:52:32. > :52:37.there in the first place. As Adrian said, that has been under fire since
:52:38. > :52:41.the 16th century, the scientific Revolution, Copernicus, blame him.
:52:42. > :52:46.The second thing is probably what we are really talking about today.
:52:47. > :52:50.Religion supplies us with a moral architecture, a way to live, what
:52:51. > :52:57.are stuck -- what Aristotle would have called the good life. What is
:52:58. > :53:02.right and wrong. It is a road map that guides us. This is the
:53:03. > :53:09.spiritual dimensional swat we are talking about. What the church has
:53:10. > :53:13.to do, particularly the Anglican Church, is to respond to cultural
:53:14. > :53:24.change in a way that is relevant to us. It is a sturdy architecture, its
:53:25. > :53:29.guides us through our lives. As I see it, it is dragging its feet a
:53:30. > :53:34.bit. It is not quite in sync with change. We have a case going on at
:53:35. > :53:39.the moment, the Clive Larsson case, he is a member of the Church of
:53:40. > :53:43.England who is gay and has just resigned his position in the church
:53:44. > :53:48.because of the dispute over gay marriage. He has been living with
:53:49. > :53:55.his partner in the rectory. There is a recognition that he is gay and he
:53:56. > :54:01.lives in a stable partnership, but he can't get married. Tommy, what
:54:02. > :54:04.are people saying? David says the church attempts to be relevant but
:54:05. > :54:09.it is based on a book put together 2000 years ago. Tez says it depends
:54:10. > :54:15.on who the priest or their careers. I think some probably do a great job
:54:16. > :54:18.of making the religious teachings meaningful to today's society.
:54:19. > :54:22.Elizabeth says religion generally has little relevance or connection
:54:23. > :54:27.to the modern world. Paul says it has not been relevant for a long
:54:28. > :54:32.time. The days of privilege afforded to the clergy are over and they are
:54:33. > :54:39.now panicking. Thank you, Tommy. Robert, how do you see the future?
:54:40. > :54:42.These things go in cycles. Go back 250 years, you see decline in the
:54:43. > :54:46.Church of England but the Church found a way to become relevant,
:54:47. > :54:50.rethink its mission and role in British society. I think it is a
:54:51. > :54:54.fantastic moment in church history, it is a transfer the Anglican
:54:55. > :54:57.tradition to sell buildings, race money to do mission and find other
:54:58. > :55:01.ways of engaging with the real questions that people are concerned
:55:02. > :55:05.about, but I am with Ellis in the sense that it needs to modernise or
:55:06. > :55:09.just do a better job in terms of selling itself. There is great work
:55:10. > :55:16.that bishops do in the House of Lords. Adrian? I despair at Ellis'
:55:17. > :55:23.perspective. The Church's Ridge this not to be relevant, it is to tell
:55:24. > :55:27.people about Jesus. -- the Church's job. It becomes about sexual organs
:55:28. > :55:34.more than church organs when you come on this programme. On and, I am
:55:35. > :55:39.so sorry. On this Sunday we had to leave it there. -- Linda, I am so
:55:40. > :55:42.sorry. Thank you all, good to have you with us.
:55:43. > :55:47.Thank you to our guests and also to you for your comments
:55:48. > :55:51.And now to play us out, Ken Burton - one of the conductors of this week's
:55:52. > :55:55.Gospel Prom at the Royal Albert Hall - with members of the Croydon
:55:56. > :55:57.Seventh Day Adventist Gospel Choir perform a timely song about bringing
:55:58. > :55:59.us together in these troubled times, Family of Man.
:56:00. > :56:05.From me, Jane Hill and everyone here, goodbye.
:56:06. > :56:28.# There was a small voice in isolation.
:56:29. > :56:37.# It was declaring a simple truth. # It spoke of freedom and
:56:38. > :56:45.understanding. # And the brotherhood of youth.
:56:46. > :56:57.# For we are brothers # And we are sisters.
:56:58. > :57:11.# In the family of man # Our endeavour is peace for ever
:57:12. > :57:18.# And the future lies in our hands. # Do not dismiss as as foolish
:57:19. > :57:33.dreamers # Though we are many, we are one
:57:34. > :57:36.# Letters discover -- let us discover, and together we shall
:57:37. > :57:43.overcome # For we are brothers
:57:44. > :57:52.# And we are sisters # In the family of man.
:57:53. > :58:08.# Our endeavour # Is peace for ever
:58:09. > :58:14.# And the future lies in our hands. # For we are brothers
:58:15. > :58:24.# And we are sisters # In the family of man
:58:25. > :58:34.# For we are brothers # And we are sisters
:58:35. > :58:41.# In the family of man # For we are brothers
:58:42. > :59:21.# And we are sisters # In the family of man.
:59:22. > :59:24.The England Men's and the England Women's cricket teams