:00:00. > :00:08.I'm Anita Anand standing in for Naga Munchetty.
:00:09. > :00:11.On today's programme: Murder at the altar.
:00:12. > :00:15.The world was shocked by the merciless killing in France
:00:16. > :00:21.Big bosses took a beating this week with a report
:00:22. > :00:29.Former Dragon Hilary Devey is breathing fire about boardroom
:00:30. > :00:37.The internet - a forum for free speech or a licence to abuse?
:00:38. > :00:41.As more MPs are targeted online, how can we control internet trolls?
:00:42. > :00:43.And comedian Francesca Martinez tells Hardeep Singh Kohli
:00:44. > :00:51.why she refuses to be defined by disability.
:00:52. > :00:59.Apparently when I was a baby, the doctor told my parents that I would
:01:00. > :01:06.never lead a normal life. Who wants a normal life? I want an amazing
:01:07. > :01:12.life! is back so he can share
:01:13. > :01:30.all your thoughts with us. Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. This
:01:31. > :01:37.is your show and your chance to get involved. Whatever you are thinking
:01:38. > :02:06.or feeling, share it with us. This is how you can get in touch:
:02:07. > :02:11.Most Reverand Archbishop Kevin McDonald is the former Archbishop
:02:12. > :02:14.of Southwark and director of the Catholic Bishops' Office
:02:15. > :02:20.Rabbi Miriam Berger is a rabbi at Finchley Reform Synagogue, London.
:02:21. > :02:28.Terry Waite is an author and former envoy to the Archbishop
:02:29. > :02:30.of Canterbury who spent nearly five years held hostage
:02:31. > :02:34.Hanif Qadir is the CEO and founder of The Active Change Foundation,
:02:35. > :02:35.an organisation that works with young people
:02:36. > :02:50.Kevin, if I may turn to you first. How on earth does the Catholic
:02:51. > :02:55.Church respond to something with such horrific symbolism? Murder on
:02:56. > :03:00.an altar. I think the way in which the Catholic Church has reacted is
:03:01. > :03:06.very significant. As you say, this was a uniquely horrific event, to
:03:07. > :03:11.attack a priest, an elderly priest, actually saying Mass, and the way in
:03:12. > :03:13.which he was killed, I think there has been horror throughout the
:03:14. > :03:22.world. What has been very interesting has been the way in
:03:23. > :03:25.which leaders have responded. The Archbishop of Rouen return from
:03:26. > :03:31.Poland and he said the only response is prayer and the search for
:03:32. > :03:34.reconciliation. The President of the Bishops' conference of France and
:03:35. > :03:39.the Archbishop of Marseille talked about the need to create a
:03:40. > :03:42.civilisation of love. In England, very significantly, Cardinal Nichols
:03:43. > :03:47.made a statement together with Muslim leaders, in which they
:03:48. > :03:51.expressed horror at the event and call for reconciliation. The
:03:52. > :03:57.response has not been aggressive, it has not been hostile, adversarial,
:03:58. > :04:01.but it has been a call to go to the very roots of what needs to happen
:04:02. > :04:02.and what we need to create. We will pick up on many of those threads in
:04:03. > :04:05.a moment. This week Pope Francis said
:04:06. > :04:07.the world is at war but stressed However, in the aftermath
:04:08. > :04:12.of the murder of an 86-year-old Catholic priest, Father Jacques
:04:13. > :04:14.Hamel, at the altar of his church places of worship have good reason
:04:15. > :04:23.to be apprehensive. While leaders of mosques
:04:24. > :04:25.and synagogues are no stranger to security strategies,
:04:26. > :04:27.how should churches respond? And what can communities in Britain
:04:28. > :04:30.do about the threat of lone figures Is the solution the Government's
:04:31. > :04:35.Prevent programme, a counter-terrorism strategy that
:04:36. > :04:39.has been criticised for encouraging people to report on individuals
:04:40. > :04:44.suspected of having radical views? Or does this do little more
:04:45. > :04:47.than cultivate a climate This weekend sees one of the biggest
:04:48. > :04:55.gatherings of Muslims in the UK and Tommy Sandhu went
:04:56. > :05:06.there to gauge opinion. We are at the Living Islam festival
:05:07. > :05:10.in Lincolnshire where about 3000 people are gathering over four days
:05:11. > :05:14.for festival fun. You can see that it is mainly a family event but
:05:15. > :05:18.there are also discussions being had, and with recent attacks around
:05:19. > :05:22.the world, we want to know how it has affected the Muslim community
:05:23. > :05:27.here in the UK. When I read the story of what happened to father
:05:28. > :05:31.Jacques Hamel, I was horrified. People are using the name of
:05:32. > :05:37.something that is supposed to be very peaceful and beautiful, and
:05:38. > :05:40.radicalising it in a bad name. I feel that every individual
:05:41. > :05:43.represents themselves and so I don't feel like all Muslims are
:05:44. > :05:47.responsible for the actions of a fuel. One of the projects introduced
:05:48. > :05:57.by the government to counter the threat of terrorism is the Prevent
:05:58. > :06:00.scheme. Mr Ek Balz leads it here. It is about stopping people from
:06:01. > :06:05.getting involved in or supporting terrorism. It is about all forms of
:06:06. > :06:11.violent extremism and terrorism, and it is not about a particular racial
:06:12. > :06:14.group or religion. It is so hard to define what radicalisation really is
:06:15. > :06:18.because it is so broad. Prevent has had a bit of criticism because of
:06:19. > :06:22.that. What do you say to the people who are not fans of what you are
:06:23. > :06:24.doing? There is criticism and people ask if it is working and it
:06:25. > :06:38.absolutely is. We have examples from grassroots
:06:39. > :06:41.projects where people said they were ready to go to Syria and they have
:06:42. > :06:44.ripped up their tickets. Are you aware of Prevent? Yes, I am aware of
:06:45. > :06:48.it. How good is their job? There is more that can be done but they are
:06:49. > :06:54.making a positive effort. That had a negative impact on the Muslims and
:06:55. > :06:59.their community in Britain. Prevent is viewed with a degree of
:07:00. > :07:04.suspicion. It seems to be focused exclusively on Muslims. What could
:07:05. > :07:07.be done to stop radicalisation? Genuinely, I think people should be
:07:08. > :07:12.taught more about Islam, and have more events like this. We have got
:07:13. > :07:15.to work twice as hard to make sure our communities are together, all
:07:16. > :07:19.across Britain, that we work together and build friendships and
:07:20. > :07:23.bridges. I have belief and I have bullied because I am here today at
:07:24. > :07:28.such a beautiful event that British Muslims can congregate unite to
:07:29. > :07:38.spread a message of peace and love. One of the ladies in that clip was
:07:39. > :07:43.saying that as Muslims we feel like we have got to work twice as hard.
:07:44. > :07:48.Is that the impression you are getting? Yes, it is, and I think she
:07:49. > :07:55.is right. We do have to work twice as hard. It is a shame that we have
:07:56. > :07:59.to but it is a reality. If we don't try to bring young men and women
:08:00. > :08:04.together under a common objective of peace and cohesion, then we can
:08:05. > :08:09.allow people to manipulate those young minds. So we have got to work
:08:10. > :08:13.twice as hard as anyone else. Terry Waite, the spiritual leaders, the
:08:14. > :08:18.Pope, we started talking about him, they are at great pains to say this
:08:19. > :08:22.is not a war of religion, these are not religious men. That sense of
:08:23. > :08:26.cohesion, that message, is clearly coming from the top. Yes, I don't
:08:27. > :08:32.think it is a war of religion as such. I think it has many routes,
:08:33. > :08:40.which are complex and difficult to deal with. I think one also needs to
:08:41. > :08:45.remember that it isn't only... We hear of this tragic, tragic death in
:08:46. > :08:51.France which has appalled all decent people everywhere. We also need to
:08:52. > :08:56.remember that there are many hundreds, thousands, of followers of
:08:57. > :08:59.the Islamic faith who are suffering dreadfully, who are being held
:09:00. > :09:07.hostage virtually, by extremist groups. So it isn't just a war of
:09:08. > :09:12.religion, although religious factors enter into it. Some of the disputes
:09:13. > :09:19.internally in the region between the various groups in Islam make a
:09:20. > :09:23.contribution to this. Sure. The thing is that what goes on far away
:09:24. > :09:31.feels like it is removed from people, but these are tax that
:09:32. > :09:36.happen in Europe. They feel closer. -- attacks. In synagogues, having
:09:37. > :09:41.security at the door has been very real. Tell me what it feels like to
:09:42. > :09:44.have that when you go and worship. It is something that the Jewish
:09:45. > :09:50.community really takes for granted. A large part of the budget of any
:09:51. > :09:53.synagogue or Jewish institution is taken up with security. As somebody
:09:54. > :09:57.who went to a Jewish primary school all those years ago with big gates
:09:58. > :10:03.and security guards, it has always been part of my life. You get used
:10:04. > :10:06.to it? Yes, but it cannot possibly be that the response to hate attacks
:10:07. > :10:12.should be that everybody should follow suit and upped their game
:10:13. > :10:16.with security. We have got to be able to respond in a way that gets
:10:17. > :10:20.to the root of why we need that security, and not think we can
:10:21. > :10:23.counter it with more security. But that discussion takes time. If you
:10:24. > :10:32.want people to carry on coming to places of worship... Are you
:10:33. > :10:36.considering availing yourself of the government part in the Catholic
:10:37. > :10:40.Church? Barbed wire and high security fences? Is that sensible?
:10:41. > :10:44.The first thing to say is that security has been an issue for
:10:45. > :10:53.churches for a long time. Before anybody had heard of Isis. Maths is
:10:54. > :10:59.a public event, whether it is a wedding or a funeral. -- Mass. It is
:11:00. > :11:04.not a private gathering so there are limits to what you can do. When I
:11:05. > :11:10.was a parish priest, we closed the church because somebody broke in and
:11:11. > :11:16.attacked the crib figures. I had great regrets about doing that. A
:11:17. > :11:21.Catholic Church is a place of prayer. People want to go and pray
:11:22. > :11:25.there. It would be tragic if that dimension of Catholic life was
:11:26. > :11:29.excluded or limited. And it is also not just about the formal service.
:11:30. > :11:35.It is a place of century. You think a church should have its doors open,
:11:36. > :11:39.and likewise a mosque. But there are greater incidence of attacks on
:11:40. > :11:42.Muslim places of worship. In the Muslim community, are you thinking
:11:43. > :11:48.that the way we have done things is not the way we can continue to do
:11:49. > :11:52.things? Sad though it is, and shocking and appalling, it is no
:11:53. > :11:56.surprise that faith houses and religious institutions have been
:11:57. > :12:01.attacked. Throughout Jerusalem we have seen that, in the Middle East,
:12:02. > :12:05.Pakistan, Africa. In the UK we have seen attacks on synagogues, churches
:12:06. > :12:10.and mosques. It is a shame but that is the reality we are living in.
:12:11. > :12:16.Look at the threats posed by extremist groups, and the call for
:12:17. > :12:20.arms by Isis scholars. We haven't really got a definition for
:12:21. > :12:26.extremism. That seems to be the issue. Terry Waite, what do you
:12:27. > :12:30.define as extremism? Is it saying I disagree with foreign policy and I
:12:31. > :12:35.am going to fight in Syria? Or I agree with the fighters in Syria? I
:12:36. > :12:43.don't like foreign policy. Where is the line? I think sometimes the line
:12:44. > :12:46.is drawn to strictly in terms of relationships with people who might
:12:47. > :12:50.be called extremists. If you are going to get a solution to these
:12:51. > :12:56.problems, at some point there has got to be dialogue and talking. One
:12:57. > :13:01.of the real difficulties, if I may say, about the Israeli- Palestinian
:13:02. > :13:05.issue, which is a place I have been many times, both to Israel and
:13:06. > :13:12.Palestine, is that it is extremely difficult now for the groups to get
:13:13. > :13:19.together, because of the climate of hatred on both sides. Dislike on
:13:20. > :13:23.both sides. There are not enough minutes on this programme to get
:13:24. > :13:26.into the Palestine issue. One thing that you have brought up with Miriam
:13:27. > :13:30.and something that you firmly believe in, the preventing strategy.
:13:31. > :13:36.Not barbed wire and dealing with the aftermath strategy. Is it fair to
:13:37. > :13:40.ask teachers in schools to inform the Home Office if a child is saying
:13:41. > :13:45.something deemed to be iffy? I think we have got to get to the bottom of
:13:46. > :13:48.where views come from and why children are expressing views,
:13:49. > :13:53.because they are unlikely to have made them up themselves. I think
:13:54. > :13:58.teachers have an obligation to report... Teachers say all the time
:13:59. > :14:01.it is not their job to be policemen. They might not be acting as
:14:02. > :14:05.policemen that they are acting in the best interests of the welfare of
:14:06. > :14:09.their students and students have got to be given an opportunity to speak
:14:10. > :14:13.and express and have their ideas and packed. We saw that from the film
:14:14. > :14:17.and you must hear that all the time, that kind of thing rankle deeply
:14:18. > :14:25.with the Muslim community, that basically kids are being spied on.
:14:26. > :14:27.It is a difficult task and a challenge and I understand where
:14:28. > :14:33.Miriam is coming from and I have been working with Prevent since
:14:34. > :14:38.2003. Radicalisation and extremism is a process of conversations. If we
:14:39. > :14:42.shut down those conversations, it is like Miriam has said. We have got to
:14:43. > :14:46.let young people express themselves, in a manner where it does not create
:14:47. > :14:53.violence and intolerance of another person or faith. If we don't allow
:14:54. > :14:56.the discussion to take place, then we are going to push the problem
:14:57. > :14:59.under the carpet and it will resurface. Those conversations will
:15:00. > :15:01.be taking place in other areas and environments and it will not be
:15:02. > :15:15.shaped bypass or positive people. Let me get the Archbishop's take on
:15:16. > :15:25.this. About that extremism video, I don't think they would have seen it
:15:26. > :15:30.as an extremist... Really, you think they wouldn't have? In the sense
:15:31. > :15:34.that they are not true... Most Muslims would say that Isis are not
:15:35. > :15:39.true to Islamic principles, that's the point I'm making. Obviously that
:15:40. > :15:45.the background and the origin of it but what they're doing is something
:15:46. > :15:52.utterly modern, utterly of our time, and I'm sure they were right in
:15:53. > :15:58.saying that in terms of the Druids -- the traditions of Islam, it has
:15:59. > :16:01.no place. Right. And yet there is an attraction, there are young people
:16:02. > :16:06.going from this country and joining Isis, it is a fact. We got it right?
:16:07. > :16:10.Have we got away in which we look out for these things and come down
:16:11. > :16:16.on these things, have we got that balance right? Shaking your head.
:16:17. > :16:21.First of all, I don't think we should overreact, going back a step.
:16:22. > :16:28.One of the tactics being used at the moment is in fact to get a reaction
:16:29. > :16:33.from our communities in this country and to begin to eat away, if you
:16:34. > :16:38.like, at some of our traditional values, freedom of speech and so on.
:16:39. > :16:46.One of the answers to it of course is to improve dialogue, to improve
:16:47. > :16:50.understanding, to improve education between people, between the
:16:51. > :16:55.different groups of this country. Looking at another situation going
:16:56. > :16:57.back to Northern Ireland, in Northern Ireland, people were able
:16:58. > :17:05.to shelter in the community because they were not... They were protected
:17:06. > :17:09.by the families. Why were you shaking your head? The reason I'm
:17:10. > :17:13.shaking my head is that, if you asked me if you years ago how
:17:14. > :17:19.Prevent was working, I would say it was working remarkably well. We had
:17:20. > :17:23.that connection with local authorities and communities and the
:17:24. > :17:26.way we gauged with our communities was working fantastically well. The
:17:27. > :17:29.way it's working out is that there's knowing gateman with the police any
:17:30. > :17:34.more. There's no community interaction. What was the breaking
:17:35. > :17:37.point in that, then? In the last two-year is we've had a rapid
:17:38. > :17:42.decline in community engagement by the police and the authorities. The
:17:43. > :17:46.police just aren't talking? The way that Prevent is being orchestrated
:17:47. > :17:52.now, we were a beacon of hope in terms of preventing radicalisation.
:17:53. > :17:59.We've moved well away from that and we're now going in the opposite
:18:00. > :18:04.direction, we're going... Because of the measures police are taking now,
:18:05. > :18:07.there is no more dialogue, discussion, interaction between
:18:08. > :18:11.police and communities and because that we're pushing these further
:18:12. > :18:17.away. You've been sending us your texts and tweets on this. Quite
:18:18. > :18:21.literally, people are just saying simply condemn murder, web however
:18:22. > :19:11.it is committed. Anita. Thank you very much indeed.
:19:12. > :19:16.One of those points, that we don't hear enough condemnation from the
:19:17. > :19:22.Muslim community... It's interesting, there has been a call
:19:23. > :19:27.in France from the Muslim community, saying they must attend Mass today
:19:28. > :19:33.and one of those killers has been refused a Muslim burial in France as
:19:34. > :19:36.well. Do we just ink that there isn't condemnation from Muslims, or
:19:37. > :19:42.is there a serious point that, Archbishop? Well, the thing about
:19:43. > :19:45.Islam, it doesn't have the kind of leadership... People might be
:19:46. > :19:48.looking for someone like a Pope or even an Archbishop of Canterbury,
:19:49. > :19:57.someone who can speak in the name of the religion. There is no parallel
:19:58. > :20:02.structure in Islam. There isn't anybody who's position I think
:20:03. > :20:05.requires... There is nobody who is invested by the whole of Islam with
:20:06. > :20:12.authority to speak on behalf of Islam and that's what people are
:20:13. > :20:16.looking for. That isn't there. It's also a fine line that says that by
:20:17. > :20:20.expecting the Muslim community to condemn, there is an association
:20:21. > :20:24.also being made that the perpetrators want that association
:20:25. > :20:29.because it's a propaganda debate as well. That's very interesting. So do
:20:30. > :20:32.we do what some countries are advocating, which is staffed the
:20:33. > :20:38.oxygen of publicity, don't show their places, don't say their names,
:20:39. > :20:42.don't talk about them so publicly, these attackers? Is that the way
:20:43. > :20:47.forward? Don't play into the fear that we are clearly being fed, that
:20:48. > :20:51.this is a Muslim who has grown up in this European country or this is an
:20:52. > :20:56.immigrant who had come in... We are being fed the lies that these are
:20:57. > :20:58.people we must fear. Why the Muslim community of those countries
:20:59. > :21:03.standing up and say we must condemn, it suggests we are in some way
:21:04. > :21:07.connected. I think it's a fine line of expectation as well. Let's just
:21:08. > :21:18.go back to you, what is the way forward? If you have heard of the
:21:19. > :21:22.not in my name campaign, it reached over 300 million people and every
:21:23. > :21:27.single nation on this planet followed that campaign. If Muslim
:21:28. > :21:30.communities aren't standing up and condemning this, I don't know who
:21:31. > :21:35.is. We don't ask the Christian community when something is done in
:21:36. > :21:39.the name of Christianity, or the Jewish community, to apologise or
:21:40. > :21:43.condemn. It's right that we need to separate the faith from the killing,
:21:44. > :21:49.whether it's in the name of a killing or not. There is a lot being
:21:50. > :21:52.done by Muslim communities but because we're allowing it to have
:21:53. > :21:57.the air, we're giving people an opportunity to say these kind of
:21:58. > :22:00.things, which is pushing people onto the back foot and that is an
:22:01. > :22:05.uncomfortable position to be in because it does feed the extremist
:22:06. > :22:06.narrative. Thank you all very much indeed and thank you for your
:22:07. > :22:10.comments. Keep them coming in. Vicky Balch, who lost a leg
:22:11. > :22:14.in an accident at Alton Towers, tells us how she has been targeted
:22:15. > :22:23.by online abuse. The trolls were saying things like I
:22:24. > :22:27.was milking the accident and I need to get over my accident, what
:22:28. > :22:29.happened was awful but I need to get over it now, they are sick of seeing
:22:30. > :22:35.my face. Francesca Francesca Martinez is a comedian,
:22:36. > :22:38.an actress, a writer, a campaigner But Francesca simply describes that
:22:39. > :22:46.as being a bit wobbly. Though she was bullied
:22:47. > :22:48.at school, she refused to be Francesca has written a book about
:22:49. > :22:55.her attitude to life. Hardeep Singh Kohli went to meet
:22:56. > :22:58.Francesca to find out what lies behind her
:22:59. > :23:10.formidable stage presence. Hello! Francesca commit you speak
:23:11. > :23:13.incredibly fondly of your childhood. What made it so if you lick?
:23:14. > :23:27.I was very, very loved. -- what made it so idyllic. Being wobbly was
:23:28. > :23:32.really not an issue to me. I didn't feel disabled or abnormal in anyway.
:23:33. > :23:39.I felt incredibly capable. I had lots of friends. I loved to laugh
:23:40. > :23:43.and be quite cheeky and I loved to have fun. You had a really good sort
:23:44. > :23:48.of younger childhood but rings changed quite dramatically when you
:23:49. > :23:53.went to big school. There is nothing like an all girls high school to
:23:54. > :24:02.bash out all your confidence. I got the biggest shock in the world,
:24:03. > :24:05.which was, "Wow, I live in a culture that views being abnormal and all
:24:06. > :24:10.the things that I viewed as being unimportant like how I moved, how I
:24:11. > :24:14.balked, how I talked, they suddenly became the defining factor. So I
:24:15. > :24:23.quickly lost all my confidence and I adopted their view of me. So I
:24:24. > :24:28.viewed myself as abnormal, as freakish, I thought I didn't have
:24:29. > :24:31.any friends, I thought no one would ever loved me. It was a complete
:24:32. > :24:38.turnaround for me in terms of my self perception. How did you, having
:24:39. > :24:46.had the confidence knocked out of you, how did you come back to where
:24:47. > :24:50.you are? I got a part in Grange Hill when I was 14. You did a brilliant
:24:51. > :24:57.job, there's no need for you to cry... She just... I know.
:24:58. > :25:04.It took me out of that negative high school environment for roughly nine
:25:05. > :25:12.months of the year. So it had this huge impact on me. Some of my
:25:13. > :25:18.confidence came back and I made friends. It also gave me a glimmer
:25:19. > :25:23.of hope in that I thought, maybe I could be a performer professionally.
:25:24. > :25:36.I'm getting into my car and this taxi driver pulls up right beside
:25:37. > :25:43.me. He says, don't do it! And I'm like, do what? And he says, don't
:25:44. > :25:49.drink and drive! Getting into stand-up can be daunting for most
:25:50. > :25:54.people. What made you want to do it? Well, I kind of stumbled into it. My
:25:55. > :26:02.dad wrote a script where he made my character a stand-up comedian. I
:26:03. > :26:07.read this script and said that, this is incredible, I could never be a
:26:08. > :26:13.comedian, are you mad? He was like, I think you would be really good. I
:26:14. > :26:20.went to a comedy workshop as research, purely research... But
:26:21. > :26:33.then I somehow was persuaded to do a little gig. Even though I was
:26:34. > :26:36.completely terrified, I felt this profound sense of wow, this is
:26:37. > :26:45.amazing, this is what I'm meant to do. I asked a guy what normal was to
:26:46. > :26:49.him, and he said, normal is a cycle on a washing machine!
:26:50. > :27:03.The thing about stand-up is, you can't be fake, like, you've got to
:27:04. > :27:10.be you. The self acceptance was not trying to be fit in and be normal.
:27:11. > :27:15.It was in fact just going, this is me and being honest about who I was
:27:16. > :27:20.and not hiding it and not being ashamed of it. And I really believe
:27:21. > :27:24.that the way to confidence and happiness for all of us is to accent
:27:25. > :27:30.who we are and to appreciate everything we have.
:27:31. > :27:44.What are you doing in this? What, Judith? She said what are you doing
:27:45. > :27:50.in this? Oh, background artist! What was your decision to take the role
:27:51. > :27:56.in Extras. I love that cringes humour and as long as there was my
:27:57. > :28:06.character had comebacks... And what does that entail? What does
:28:07. > :28:10.that entail? Just standing round, really. It's not what I do, I'm a
:28:11. > :28:13.real actor, this is just pocket money. Yeah, but they all say
:28:14. > :28:24.that... It's so lacking in diversity, it
:28:25. > :28:28.shows such a narrow band of humanity. I really appreciated the
:28:29. > :28:33.fact that Ricky wasn't ignoring it and he wanted to actually deal with
:28:34. > :28:36.that head on. You've had a remarkable journey so far in life.
:28:37. > :28:42.What do you hope other people have taken from your example? I think the
:28:43. > :28:52.most valuable thing I ever learnt was to think for myself. To question
:28:53. > :29:01.the accepted norm and attitudes of society. I realised that those
:29:02. > :29:05.battles with insecurity and self-acceptance, they had nothing to
:29:06. > :29:09.do with being wobbly and everything to do with living in this culture.
:29:10. > :29:18.Apparently, when I was a baby, the doctor told my parents that I would
:29:19. > :29:20.never lead a normal life. I was like, who wants a normal life? I
:29:21. > :29:30.want an amazing life! Knowledge is power and once you
:29:31. > :29:43.understand the mechanisms at work, you can liberate yourself. I learned
:29:44. > :29:53.to say I am absolutely find a way I am. Francesca Martinez, there.
:29:54. > :29:55.This week saw the release of a parliamentary report
:29:56. > :29:57.into the collapse of the high street chain BHS.
:29:58. > :29:59.The report, a damning indictment of the former BHS
:30:00. > :30:01.owner Sir Philip Green, heavily criticised his actions
:30:02. > :30:04.in the sale of the high street chain for ?1.
:30:05. > :30:07.The report also outlined how the demise of BHS has left 11,000
:30:08. > :30:09.people facing the loss of their jobs and put the pensions
:30:10. > :30:17.In his parliamentary evidence back in June, Sir Philip said
:30:18. > :30:20.that he wanted to find a solution for the pensioners.
:30:21. > :30:26.The report now says that he has a moral duty to do just that.
:30:27. > :30:29.In the wake of the report, a spokeswoman for the Prime Minister
:30:30. > :30:32.said that she wanted to reform capitalism to make sure it works
:30:33. > :30:35.for everyone, not just the privileged few.
:30:36. > :30:37.But in a challenging economic environment is there such a thing
:30:38. > :30:48.Joining the panel is Dawn Foster, a business economics journalist
:30:49. > :30:50.and author of Lean Out, a book about feminism,
:30:51. > :30:54.Hilary Devey is a businesswoman and former Dragon
:30:55. > :31:01.Mark Littlewood is the director general of the Institute
:31:02. > :31:08.of Economic Affairs, a free market think-tank.
:31:09. > :31:15.Thank you very much. Shall we call it as it is? There is no room for
:31:16. > :31:23.conscience in capitalism. Absolutely not. It makes me almost incandescent
:31:24. > :31:27.with rage to hear that set. Certainly all the businesses I am
:31:28. > :31:32.involved with have a huge corporate social responsibility. Yes,
:31:33. > :31:38.businesses trade for profit, but my goal as CEO of those businesses is
:31:39. > :31:43.to make sure that I retain the employment of all my employees, and
:31:44. > :31:49.to do that, it has got to make a profit. But profits don't
:31:50. > :31:56.necessarily go to the people who work for the business. Not you, you
:31:57. > :31:59.must be lovely to work for! But an unscrupulous boss, with shareholders
:32:00. > :32:03.to answer for, an unforgiving balance sheet, the value of the
:32:04. > :32:09.workers and the customers goes down. I don't think it does go down. As a
:32:10. > :32:12.boss, you have got to balance several things. Sometimes we think
:32:13. > :32:17.chasing a profit is chasing numbers, but to make a profit you have got to
:32:18. > :32:20.keep a lot of people happy. You have got to provide goods and services to
:32:21. > :32:43.your customer at a high enough quality and low enough price
:32:44. > :32:47.that they voluntarily buy it. You have got to retain a workforce who
:32:48. > :32:50.are motivated and productive, and you have got to show a rate of
:32:51. > :32:53.return for the people who have had the guts and courage to invest in
:32:54. > :32:55.you. That is a balancing act. To suggest that is unconscionable
:32:56. > :32:57.activity, that you cannot be a principled person, I think treating
:32:58. > :32:59.your staff and customers well and given your shareholders a good
:33:00. > :33:01.return is a perfectly ethical way to behave, and exactly how most
:33:02. > :33:04.business people do behave. So everything is fine in the kingdom
:33:05. > :33:07.and there is nothing to worry about? I hope so and I wish it were. There
:33:08. > :33:10.has got to be a sense that business bosses these days are the new
:33:11. > :33:12.clergy. Retail is no longer just therapy but the new religion. Plenty
:33:13. > :33:15.of people will have been in shops this weekend, more than mosques and
:33:16. > :33:18.synagogues around the country. I think there has got to be a sense of
:33:19. > :33:22.understanding that those businesses set an agenda and a culture in
:33:23. > :33:27.society, and when business leaders are seen to be avoiding their social
:33:28. > :33:33.principles, and not contributing back to society, that is taken on by
:33:34. > :33:37.the rest of society. Is it really naive, completely naive to say that
:33:38. > :33:41.you want to do the right thing? Should there be a legal stick to
:33:42. > :33:44.make people do the right thing? Do we need more of that? I think so,
:33:45. > :33:59.definitely. Since the 2008 recession we have
:34:00. > :34:02.seen the government pushing for more profits, as though that is the only
:34:03. > :34:04.way to get out of this as though the government cannot do things
:34:05. > :34:07.themselves. Regulations have been pulled away. I have spoken to a lot
:34:08. > :34:09.of women who have been laid off a legally and they cannot take their
:34:10. > :34:12.employers to the tribunal because ?150 tribunal fees have been brought
:34:13. > :34:15.in. We are in an hourglass economy where a lot of people are very poor
:34:16. > :34:21.and very rich and there is the squeezed middle. The people at the
:34:22. > :34:27.top, the workers are valued, but at the bottom, you are expendable. I
:34:28. > :34:33.can feel the heat coming off Hilary! Capitalism does create growth. And
:34:34. > :34:41.it brings people out of poverty. You have just got to look at China. Back
:34:42. > :34:47.in 1980, 80% of people lived in abject poverty. Today it is less
:34:48. > :34:53.than 10%. Why? Because the economy thrived. Capitalism has grown.
:34:54. > :34:57.Therefore it has benefited all. The benefits system picks up the flag of
:34:58. > :35:06.profits in big business, so people are not earning a proper wage, they
:35:07. > :35:09.are doing long days. I don't know which company you have been
:35:10. > :35:13.associated with but the people in my company have a contract to do a set
:35:14. > :35:16.number of hours and they take the necessary breaks and we are governed
:35:17. > :35:22.anyway by the working time directive. Are you paying the London
:35:23. > :35:26.living wage? Rather than analysing Hilary's business, which is
:35:27. > :35:31.interesting, let's look at the one that kick-started the conversation,
:35:32. > :35:35.PHS, and the obligation of somebody that had that company, sold it, and
:35:36. > :35:39.walks away with quite a lot of money in their pockets, and a pension
:35:40. > :35:44.scheme that may not be fulfilled. What are the obligations in that
:35:45. > :35:48.case? I think we have got to be clear here. Talking about legal
:35:49. > :35:55.sticks to hit people with. What legal obligations do we think that's
:35:56. > :36:02.a Philip Green in this case, or any CEO, goes to their staff in terms of
:36:03. > :36:05.pension contributions, and what about the people that they sell the
:36:06. > :36:09.business on to? Rather than bringing in Philip Green for a fight on
:36:10. > :36:13.television, I want policymakers to address those points. It might be
:36:14. > :36:17.wise for a business that starts to fail to say, you know what? We're
:36:18. > :36:23.not going to contribute to the pension fund this month. We need to
:36:24. > :36:27.relaunch or rebrand the company so it doesn't go bust. If you sell on
:36:28. > :36:34.the company, what obligations do you have? If I sell on my flat, I don't
:36:35. > :36:38.have to vouch for the neighbourliness of the people that
:36:39. > :36:45.buy it so why should they? Then need to be clear rules. I can't believe
:36:46. > :36:51.my ears. You are asking for more regulations. I would love them to be
:36:52. > :36:55.clear! We have the longest tax code in the world that nobody can
:36:56. > :36:59.understand. We need less but it has got to be clearer. This spat
:37:00. > :37:05.continues overnight between Frank Field, an MP, who has carpeted
:37:06. > :37:12.Philip Green in public, and Philip Green who has spoken to Mr Leonard
:37:13. > :37:17.friends. You should be in no doubt, any decision relies on a voluntary
:37:18. > :37:22.decision to support the pensions because there is no legal liability
:37:23. > :37:26.to support the schemes. He does not sound like he cares at all about the
:37:27. > :37:29.people sitting at home worried about how they will clear the next payment
:37:30. > :37:36.and which job they will get and how they will provide for their
:37:37. > :37:43.families. To be quite honest, I do feel for those pensioners. I can't
:37:44. > :37:47.speak for Sir Philip Green, and I only know what I would do myself. I
:37:48. > :37:54.would certainly find a way of paying them. There is a problem here. We
:37:55. > :37:58.have a pensions protection fund. This is the equivalent of a travel
:37:59. > :38:03.agency arrangement to make sure you can get home if you are on holiday
:38:04. > :38:07.and your airline goes bust. Has Sir Philip Green and did BHS abide by
:38:08. > :38:13.the terms of that? That is the backstop that you have got. If they
:38:14. > :38:17.didn't, there should be litigation from the pensions regulator to Sir
:38:18. > :38:22.Philip Green. We just need the simple rules of contract to get this
:38:23. > :38:25.sorted. But there is a heartbeat obligation. These people worked for
:38:26. > :38:31.a long time for a shop that he was in charge of and he kind of owes it
:38:32. > :38:38.to them. Are we going to apply that to every businessman? If you are a
:38:39. > :38:41.shop owner employing four people and the shop goes bust, how much do you
:38:42. > :38:46.owe them if it goes bust? OK, but this is not four people. We see this
:38:47. > :38:50.again and again. Sports director announced huge bonuses for all their
:38:51. > :38:55.staff and it turned out they meant staff on particular contract and 90%
:38:56. > :39:02.would be excluded. Time and again we see businessman with no moral duty.
:39:03. > :39:07.It is wrong not to condemn Sir Philip Green. He has plundered BHS
:39:08. > :39:12.and he was not successful. We do love a villain. Before it was the
:39:13. > :39:17.bankers, Fred the shred. Does this man deserves to have his knighthood
:39:18. > :39:21.taken away? It is in the Times today that he is not on the forfeiture
:39:22. > :39:25.list at the moment which is not necessarily definitive but should he
:39:26. > :39:30.be stripped? I think it should be irrelevant. Our concern should be
:39:31. > :39:34.about taking the limelight away from him and putting it on the people
:39:35. > :39:38.whose futures are uncertain at this time. And making sure that actually
:39:39. > :39:46.it is not the state that picks up the slack of somebody who has
:39:47. > :39:52.created a lot of profit and kept it for themselves, but rather that
:39:53. > :39:56.profit is used to support the people whose futures are not certain. You
:39:57. > :40:03.have also got to criticise the trustees of the pension fund. They
:40:04. > :40:07.allowed it to continue. Sir Philip Green approached them saying he
:40:08. > :40:12.would pay a maximum of 10 million a year into the pension fund, and they
:40:13. > :40:16.accept that. We will leave it there and we will watch with interest what
:40:17. > :40:20.happens to Philip Green and Frank Field. That is a saga that rolls on
:40:21. > :40:25.and on. You have been sending in your texts and tweets on this. A lot
:40:26. > :40:30.of people saying that the principles can mix but greed is behind a lot of
:40:31. > :40:36.what businesses do. Harry agrees with Hilary: That is not quite what
:40:37. > :40:37.Hilary said, but along those lines of developing people and lifestyles.
:40:38. > :41:14.Helen says: That is all we have. Thank you very
:41:15. > :41:19.much. That word greed has come up again and again. Just resign
:41:20. > :41:25.yourself to it. Greed may not be good, but greed is what drives the
:41:26. > :41:29.economy. Right, and I think there is a strong impulse that drives us to
:41:30. > :41:33.be able to be successful, and I think there is a difference between
:41:34. > :41:39.being successful and having that inspiration, and doing it to the
:41:40. > :41:42.detriment of others. If you come up with a great idea about how to
:41:43. > :41:45.provide goods and services to millions of people who will buy it
:41:46. > :41:49.and make you millions of pounds, most often these other spinners that
:41:50. > :41:52.have come up with a grand idea, they are not sitting at home with a blank
:41:53. > :41:56.sheet of paper thinking they are greedy and how they can be rich.
:41:57. > :42:03.They are thinking about products and services that they can provide that
:42:04. > :42:08.people will choose to buy and they get rid as a consequence. Consumers
:42:09. > :42:11.today demand ethics. If a company doesn't practice ethical behaviour,
:42:12. > :42:17.you will find very soon you run out of customers. The business pages
:42:18. > :42:22.bleed onto the front pages all the time. Talk of austerity and moral
:42:23. > :42:26.decline as we see in the newspapers today. If this was Dragons' Den and
:42:27. > :42:35.I was Britain and I said to you, Hilary, look at the stake of me, in
:42:36. > :42:42.or out? What would the answer be? I am in! Took you long enough! Thank
:42:43. > :42:44.you very much indeed and thank you for your comments and keep them
:42:45. > :42:47.coming. An internet troll admitted in court
:42:48. > :42:50.this week to sending online death threats and anti-Semitic abuse
:42:51. > :42:52.to Liverpool MP Luciana Berger. Separately, Birmingham MP
:42:53. > :42:54.Jess Phillips has also been forced to overhaul personal security over
:42:55. > :42:57.safety fears after receiving Most people would utterly condemn
:42:58. > :43:05.such abuse but how do you draw the line between such repellent
:43:06. > :43:06.vitriol and fierce Vicky Balch, who had a leg
:43:07. > :43:13.amputation after a roller coaster crash at Alton Towers, has been
:43:14. > :43:27.a victim of online trolling. They keep alt tab part of her leg
:43:28. > :43:32.amputated after a roller-coaster crash at Alton Towers amusement park
:43:33. > :43:40.last year. Coming to terms with that at the age of 21 has not been easy.
:43:41. > :43:45.Having a disability is very new to me. I was very confident beforehand
:43:46. > :43:51.and I just got on with my life and there was nothing to hold me back or
:43:52. > :43:56.to stop me so it is very hard to come to terms with it. Somebody
:43:57. > :44:00.close to Vicky came up with an idea to boost her self-confidence. She
:44:01. > :44:03.had some glamour shots taken by a photographer. I got the glamour
:44:04. > :44:07.shots as a present from my best friend Hannah. She decided it would
:44:08. > :44:12.be a good way to get my confidence back up. When the accident happened
:44:13. > :44:18.I just lost all my confidence. Seeing myself for the first time at
:44:19. > :44:22.the viewing, I was in tears, just so surprised and amazed at how good
:44:23. > :44:26.they looked. I never thought I could look like that again. A national
:44:27. > :44:31.newspaper heard about the photo shoot and ran a story. It was then
:44:32. > :44:36.that is patrolling on the internet began. That rolls were saying things
:44:37. > :44:41.like I was milking the accident and I needed to get over it. What
:44:42. > :44:48.happened was awful but I needed to get over it because they are sick of
:44:49. > :44:53.seeing my face. Being trolled is not easy. It is not nice. It is people
:44:54. > :44:57.you don't know saying horrible and hurtful things to you and about you.
:44:58. > :45:02.If it was said to the wrong person, it could really do damage. Vicky has
:45:03. > :45:03.tried to find ways of blocking the abusive messages but without much
:45:04. > :45:12.success. I've blocked and reported messages
:45:13. > :45:16.that I've got, but obviously you can't do that to everyone and you
:45:17. > :45:20.just get more. You can keep doing that and you can keep not listening
:45:21. > :45:24.to them at I don't think there will ever be a way to stop it. And Vicki
:45:25. > :45:28.joins us now. is Ella Whelan, the assistant
:45:29. > :45:31.editor of Spiked magazine. Our final question this week -
:45:32. > :45:42.how can we tackle trolls? Were you surprised when you got the
:45:43. > :45:48.amount of trolling that you got? Yes, but I thought I would get some
:45:49. > :45:53.negative comments. While would you think that? That makes me sad, that
:45:54. > :45:57.you would have do think that. There's always going to be at least
:45:58. > :46:01.one person. But we're talking about something very different here when
:46:02. > :46:08.we talk about trolling, aren't we? Completely. I'm a journalist, public
:46:09. > :46:12.figure, so I get a lot of abuse and whatever, but also when I first
:46:13. > :46:18.started in journalism one of my first jobs was moderating online
:46:19. > :46:23.comments and it is mind-boggling how much vitriol there is out there.
:46:24. > :46:31.Some of it is attention seeking but a lot of it is opinions that have
:46:32. > :46:41.always been there about women or homophobic attitudes, but... A lot
:46:42. > :46:46.of the advice is just get a thicker skin, it's always going to happen. I
:46:47. > :46:49.think that's good advice. I think the idea that we're awash with
:46:50. > :46:56.horrible people in the world is not really true. I think Twitter is a
:46:57. > :47:04.home for the kind of bedroom weirdos who get a kick out of doing such
:47:05. > :47:09.things. Does Vicky have two gird herself for it, why should she have
:47:10. > :47:13.do? I think we would all agree it's gross and to know someone who would
:47:14. > :47:16.write such verbal things is terrible and we can condemn that, but the
:47:17. > :47:24.response to it should always be... You wouldn't expect someone, it's
:47:25. > :47:30.not acceptable to stand in a Market Square and yell abuse at someone,
:47:31. > :47:39.why should it be OK if you got an egg next to you, on Twitter? I think
:47:40. > :47:42.it is freedom of speech but the other side of it is that if we are
:47:43. > :47:51.accepting as women that we should be protected from certain types of
:47:52. > :47:56.comments... It is a coincidence we have an all oestrogen driven panel
:47:57. > :48:02.on. I read a statistic that almost 50% of the trolls out there are in
:48:03. > :48:08.fact women. Have you experienced trolling? Yes I have, and quite
:48:09. > :48:18.recently when I was campaigning for during the Brexit campaign and I was
:48:19. > :48:20.campaigning for Remain, stronger in, champion of small businesses. I
:48:21. > :48:28.experienced quite a lot of harassment. Do you take a leaf from
:48:29. > :48:32.Emma's book, just man up and take it? I took the view that if you put
:48:33. > :48:37.your head above the parapet, someone is going to take a pot shot at you
:48:38. > :48:40.so you just accept it and move on. And yet, time after time, we have
:48:41. > :48:45.heard from women in the public eye who say you know what, I did not
:48:46. > :48:49.sign up for this. I signed up to be a speaker and a teacher, an
:48:50. > :48:54.actress... And actress recently from Ghostbusters, I didn't sign up for
:48:55. > :48:57.this. Completely. I think there's a legit difference between online
:48:58. > :49:02.criticism, if someone says I don't like your article and here's why...
:49:03. > :49:07.I welcome that. But what I am against is what happens time and
:49:08. > :49:14.again when people send rape threats, death threats, it has happened to
:49:15. > :49:21.me. People post my address online. I think there's a difference between
:49:22. > :49:25.someone making serious threats on your life and making Syria's
:49:26. > :49:28.attempts and that by having a sustained kind of messaging and
:49:29. > :49:34.stalker -ish kind of behaviour which is far different from just the odd
:49:35. > :49:37.tweet. The thing that really shocked me was Jess Phillips, the MP, who
:49:38. > :49:43.really loves talking about this kind of thing, I wonder whether she does
:49:44. > :49:48.work in politics, she's always on Twitter! She got several tweets and
:49:49. > :49:53.she changed her locks. I think she was advised to change them. Let's be
:49:54. > :49:59.clear, for those who don't know this story, Jess Phillips, the MP for
:50:00. > :50:06.Birmingham, got dead bodies, corpses with her face on posted. There's a
:50:07. > :50:10.difference between saying it's OK, you can condemn it publicly, that we
:50:11. > :50:13.have to think of the other side, what is the alternative to say that
:50:14. > :50:19.women should be protected from this kind of stuff? That is saying that
:50:20. > :50:23.we are more thin-skinned than men. It's not just females though, is it?
:50:24. > :50:29.Everyone should be protected from that kind of thing. But who does the
:50:30. > :50:33.protection? Let's just turn to Vicky, who has gone through this.
:50:34. > :50:37.Did you feel like you needed protecting, that Amonde should have
:50:38. > :50:41.been the thing out for you? I felt like I needed support more than
:50:42. > :50:48.anything, but it can get much worse than what I have been through. I
:50:49. > :50:54.think there should be some sort of legislation there. When does it get
:50:55. > :50:57.into harassment. You strike me as being a pretty tough cookie, if you
:50:58. > :51:03.don't mind me saying. But this wouldn't just affect you, your mum,
:51:04. > :51:07.who I've met, is a fiercely protective woman and it must have
:51:08. > :51:10.had an effect on her as well. Anyone involved in my life when you read
:51:11. > :51:16.something like that, even the supporters I've never met and have
:51:17. > :51:22.had amazing messages from, they get through it. You do have quite a
:51:23. > :51:28.total media profile. Did it not ever make you think you know what, I'm
:51:29. > :51:32.done with this, I don't want to have Instagram, snap chat, Twitter, I'm
:51:33. > :51:36.out of here? For me it didn't because of the amounts of supportive
:51:37. > :51:39.messages I get and the amount I've inspired, I wouldn't be able to
:51:40. > :51:45.speak to them and give them advice and help them and that is the only
:51:46. > :51:50.reason I am on social media. There is this idea that there is a greater
:51:51. > :51:52.good, these are the ugly sides of something that is democratising,
:51:53. > :51:56.that allows people to get help from their role models, that you would
:51:57. > :52:01.lose all of that if you start policing... I think it's on a
:52:02. > :52:04.spectrum. I think Twitter has been absolutely wonderful, it's helped
:52:05. > :52:09.lots of people I know get jobs etc. But there is a spectrum and we're
:52:10. > :52:13.not saying that nobody should be subject to any kind of contact. But
:52:14. > :52:19.at the end of the spectrum, the threatening hate speech, that needs
:52:20. > :52:26.to be dealt with. Facebook could deal with it a lot quicker. Asking
:52:27. > :52:29.an excellent question, who do you want to police it? Who is the
:52:30. > :52:35.arbiter of what is acceptable and what is not? I think I would like
:52:36. > :52:38.Twitter and Facebook to be more responsive to harassment, racism,
:52:39. > :52:43.rape threats and that sort of thing. The number of times me or my friends
:52:44. > :52:47.have been threatened with rape on Twitter and then told there was
:52:48. > :52:52.nothing offensive about those messages. We've had lots of messages
:52:53. > :52:57.saying that trolls will always exist and we can't ignore them, but others
:52:58. > :53:23.feel there should be tough laws in place to deal with them.
:53:24. > :53:32.All of our messages have been lovely, trolls do not watch Sunday
:53:33. > :53:39.Morning Live! I'm not even slightly surprised, it is a troll free zone!
:53:40. > :53:44.Vicky struck me as a tough cookie, I can say that in buckets for you. Do
:53:45. > :53:51.those comments even sometimes pierce your armour? Yes. How do you deal
:53:52. > :53:54.with it? I don't deal with it, that's the thing, I just ignore it.
:53:55. > :53:59.I treat them with the contempt they deserve. I do agree with a tweed
:54:00. > :54:05.you've just had in that they are attention seeking and therefore to
:54:06. > :54:11.respond would be to capitulate to their wishes, really. I did want to
:54:12. > :54:16.come back to you. If somebody is feeling threatened, should they call
:54:17. > :54:21.the police or not? It's up to that person whether or not they call the
:54:22. > :54:27.police but you can make the decision and take a call on that because
:54:28. > :54:31.there could be cases where it is something serious. Should the police
:54:32. > :54:36.take action? I reject the idea that the police should be involved in
:54:37. > :54:39.policing speech. Freedom of speech is a fundamental belief that we
:54:40. > :54:42.should believe in and protect but the consequence of saying there is
:54:43. > :54:46.some speed that is acceptable and some speech that isn't, that means
:54:47. > :54:51.you give an inch and a mile is taken. The grounds for what is
:54:52. > :54:54.considered offensive on Twitter and Facebook at the moment is swelling.
:54:55. > :54:59.If you're a political figure and someone who is speaking in the
:55:00. > :55:02.public realm, anything can be classified as offensive and that's
:55:03. > :55:07.terrible. Things are... After a terrible tragedy like this, you have
:55:08. > :55:13.a huge constituency, don't you, because of social media? Yeah,
:55:14. > :55:16.definitely. Everyone uses it now. It's rare to find someone that
:55:17. > :55:23.doesn't use it. It's an interesting situation. I wonder whether anything
:55:24. > :55:27.can be changed. We talk about changing things, but when you've got
:55:28. > :55:31.such a wild West out there, you can talk about policing it but it may
:55:32. > :55:34.not be possible. I think it can be changed. I think the culture is
:55:35. > :55:42.changing. I think more and more people are accepting that the
:55:43. > :55:48.culture -- that this is wrong. Thank you to my guests and you at home for
:55:49. > :55:49.your contributions. Naga Munchetty will be back on this chair next
:55:50. > :55:52.week. But before we leave,
:55:53. > :55:54.singer Carly Paoli from Nottinghamshire treats us
:55:55. > :55:57.to a special version of the classic Ave Maria, which has been chosen
:55:58. > :56:14.as the official song # His word is still as wonderful
:56:15. > :56:28.# As it was when we were younger # Is nothing sacred any more
:56:29. > :56:31.# Then what are we fighting for? # Have the dreamers stopped
:56:32. > :57:04.dreaming? # And then I pray
:57:05. > :57:38.# Ave Maria # Ave Maria
:57:39. > :57:48.# And if she's asking for our help # Then how can we turn away?
:57:49. > :57:55.# We have to pray # Ave Maria