:00:00. > :00:14.Would you like your local bobby to look like this?
:00:15. > :00:18.As more police with guns are brought onto the streets,
:00:19. > :00:23.A company boss resigns after suggesting some women do not
:00:24. > :00:26.want top jobs and prefer to be happy and do great work.
:00:27. > :00:29.There's a call for more religion in schools.
:00:30. > :00:36.But should God be kept out of the classroom?
:00:37. > :00:39.And singer Gregory Porter tells Nikki Bedi
:00:40. > :00:47.about the racism he suffered as a child.
:00:48. > :00:55.We had a cross burned in our yard. Were you frightened? Yes, until my
:00:56. > :01:02.mother got in my face, and said, you know, I am here, I will protect you.
:01:03. > :01:03.You are below nobody. You are not above anybody but you are below
:01:04. > :01:15.nobody. Tommy Sandhu is back
:01:16. > :01:19.here so he can share You can contact us by
:01:20. > :01:26.Facebook and Twitter. Don't forget to use
:01:27. > :01:29.the hashtag #bbcsml. Standard geographic
:01:30. > :01:36.charges from landlines Texts will be charged
:01:37. > :01:45.at your standard message rate. And if you do have something to say,
:01:46. > :01:49.please don't forget to put your name Email us at
:01:50. > :01:53.sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk Let's meet some of our
:01:54. > :02:02.guests this week. Dame Joan Bakewell is an author,
:02:03. > :02:04.journalist and broadcaster. Kevin Hurley is a former
:02:05. > :02:06.police officer and was the Surrey Police and
:02:07. > :02:10.Crime Commissioner. James Delingpole is a writer
:02:11. > :02:12.and columnist at Breitbart News. Leroy Logan is a former
:02:13. > :02:15.superintendent in the Metropolitan Police and chair
:02:16. > :02:17.of the Black Police 600 extra armed police are to be
:02:18. > :02:25.deployed on the streets of London to counter terrorism
:02:26. > :02:27.threats. Within 24 hours of members
:02:28. > :02:30.of the new contingent being put on display,
:02:31. > :02:33.officers with firearms were called to Russell Square in the heart
:02:34. > :02:37.of the capital to tackle a man with a knife who killed one person
:02:38. > :02:40.and stabbed five others. It wasn't an extremist incident
:02:41. > :02:42.and the perpetrator But the Metropolitan Police
:02:43. > :02:47.Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe says it's not a matter
:02:48. > :02:50.of if but when a terrorist So as gun-carrying officers become
:02:51. > :02:57.a familiar sight in the capital, should we go further and arm
:02:58. > :03:02.more or even all police? Our first question this week,
:03:03. > :03:05.do armed police make us safer? And we'll also be joined
:03:06. > :03:08.from Belfast by Chris Ryder, a journalist who specialises
:03:09. > :03:10.in security and policing in Northern Ireland where all police
:03:11. > :03:22.officers carry guns. Welcome to you as well. Kevin, do
:03:23. > :03:25.you agree with the decision to increase the number of armed
:03:26. > :03:30.officers? Actually you are being misled because there are 1300 less
:03:31. > :03:35.police officers now than there were in 2009. What we are looking at is a
:03:36. > :03:39.slight feeling of the gap. What I don't like to see is the showing off
:03:40. > :03:45.of all the equipment that we saw the other day. The police have always
:03:46. > :03:48.had that kind of stuff. I thought it was a necessary scaremongering,
:03:49. > :03:52.particularly in light of the fact that the biggest threat we are
:03:53. > :03:57.likely to save here is the lone wolf attack, like we saw in Neath with
:03:58. > :04:01.the lorry, the chap on the train with the axe, and yesterday in
:04:02. > :04:06.Brussels where an individual attacks in an unknown place and they are
:04:07. > :04:09.stopped because local police with handguns deal with the issue rather
:04:10. > :04:16.than bringing out the full Ninja team. Key points, one, we actually
:04:17. > :04:21.have less police armed than in 2009, and this will only go halfway to
:04:22. > :04:24.filling that gap, and secondly what we need is better dispersal on
:04:25. > :04:30.response shifts so that if something bad happens in Guildford town
:04:31. > :04:34.centre, Maidstone, Southampton or up in Manchester in the suburbs, a
:04:35. > :04:41.local officer can deal with it. You have brought up quite a few issues
:04:42. > :04:45.there. Leroy, we are one of very few countries which do not routinely
:04:46. > :04:50.have an armed police force. Are we behind the times or ahead of the
:04:51. > :04:53.times? I think we are the envy of the world. I have travelled
:04:54. > :04:56.extensively and my colleagues in different countries have said they
:04:57. > :05:02.really admire as for being able to patrol without firearms. It is the
:05:03. > :05:06.whole look and feel of policing that is really important. We don't want
:05:07. > :05:09.to create barriers with communities. What has been said is really
:05:10. > :05:13.important. What is reassuring to some people, seeing more guns, can
:05:14. > :05:17.be fearful to some people, especially if they have received
:05:18. > :05:25.heavy-handed policing. They think it is bad enough when there were sticks
:05:26. > :05:32.and spray and even tasered, because there is disproportionality in how
:05:33. > :05:35.Tasers are used. 75% of people who have been tasered in recent years
:05:36. > :05:43.from black and ethnic minority communities. If they seek Ninja
:05:44. > :05:47.style Darth Vader clad officers with serious arms, they will think there
:05:48. > :05:53.is a good chance they will be shot. It is about security, liberty and
:05:54. > :05:59.balance with trust and confidence. Would police feel safer being armed?
:06:00. > :06:04.We are told the terrorism threat is already high. I think the fear
:06:05. > :06:08.factor is really important. When I was a police officer, and I am sure
:06:09. > :06:12.all of us will have that fear, but you have got to overcome that fear
:06:13. > :06:15.and be professional. It is about being sophisticated about how you
:06:16. > :06:20.deploy those officers at the right place and time, not just patrolling
:06:21. > :06:23.with arms, because that can create barriers with the community. I am in
:06:24. > :06:31.favour of more police and the funding of more policing but I don't
:06:32. > :06:34.like seeing them armed. It was interesting that yesterday across
:06:35. > :06:37.the country there were protests by Black Lives Matter on the
:06:38. > :06:42.anniversary of the killing of Mark Duggan, which triggered riots, as we
:06:43. > :06:48.know. Yesterday, it was so peaceful and the police handled it very well
:06:49. > :06:51.indeed, so we have made progress. We are so reluctant to compliment
:06:52. > :06:55.ourselves and I think we have a fantastic record. Clearly something
:06:56. > :06:59.is going right because although there have been individual
:07:00. > :07:03.incidents, there has not been a major catastrophe to equal 7/7 in
:07:04. > :07:08.all the years since. So what is going on is on the quiet.
:07:09. > :07:12.Intelligence building, sharing of information, infiltrating where
:07:13. > :07:16.there is risk, that is happening, and we are all the beneficiaries and
:07:17. > :07:21.we don't know it. We don't need to see guns to reassure us. Are we
:07:22. > :07:25.getting it right, James? I agree with some of that about the
:07:26. > :07:30.intelligence service and what Leroy said about consent, but they are
:07:31. > :07:34.both describing a golden era that no longer exists. When I was growing up
:07:35. > :07:38.and we went to foreign countries like Italy and Spain and the police
:07:39. > :07:42.were tooled up at the airport and having their guns, and my parents
:07:43. > :07:46.said, yes, but in Britain our police don't carry guns and it is a sign of
:07:47. > :07:50.how civilised we are, but things have totally changed. Yes, we have
:07:51. > :07:54.had terrorism with the IRA and stuff, but not of this kind before.
:07:55. > :07:57.We have not had lone wolves prepared to die in order to kill people and
:07:58. > :08:11.that is what has changed. I also worry
:08:12. > :08:13.about police safety. There was an example in France a few months ago
:08:14. > :08:16.when a policeman was followed home by terrorists. They tortured him and
:08:17. > :08:19.his wife in their home. Police need to be reassured that their safety is
:08:20. > :08:21.considered. I think it is really important that we recognise in every
:08:22. > :08:24.profession including policing there is a risk. You talk about a golden
:08:25. > :08:28.age of policing. I think the golden age is still to come. We are very
:08:29. > :08:35.good police service, internationally admired. I think people need to
:08:36. > :08:39.understand that we can respond in an appropriate way, a proportionate
:08:40. > :08:49.way, but we don't have to have firearms 24 last seven. In Northern
:08:50. > :08:55.Ireland all police officers are armed. Chris can join us, a
:08:56. > :08:59.specialist in policing and security there. What are your views on having
:09:00. > :09:03.an armed police and the impact that has had? It has become essential in
:09:04. > :09:07.Northern Ireland for the police to carry firearms at all times, because
:09:08. > :09:12.not only were the police targets when they were on duty, they were
:09:13. > :09:16.also targets of duty because as many police were targeted and attacked in
:09:17. > :09:20.their homes and their families were put at risk, so every officer
:09:21. > :09:26.carries a personal firearm and has done for many years. There are
:09:27. > :09:31.strict controls about the use of firearms and the availability of the
:09:32. > :09:36.firearms officers. They have got to pass regular tests to show they are
:09:37. > :09:38.competent to use them. Because of a range of suicides with police
:09:39. > :09:42.officers using their firearms to take their own lives, there were
:09:43. > :09:48.very rigorous checks on the mental health of officers. If an officer is
:09:49. > :09:55.unstable, they have the gun taken away from them. Northern Ireland is
:09:56. > :09:59.not the ideal society, but the police have played a very key role
:10:00. > :10:03.in ensuring the police here have brought about a more peaceful
:10:04. > :10:07.society than Northern Ireland experience for many years. It would
:10:08. > :10:10.be unthinkable here to try and disarm the police because of the
:10:11. > :10:14.very high level of terrorism that still exists here from dissident
:10:15. > :10:18.republicans. Do you think it would work across the UK and should be
:10:19. > :10:26.extended? My own view is that it should be. If you take the Normandy
:10:27. > :10:29.attack, which was at a quiet time and police were murdered, there is
:10:30. > :10:36.no point waiting until someone goes on a rampage with a gun or a knife,
:10:37. > :10:40.and then fly in armed officers from somewhere else, get them there by
:10:41. > :10:45.road. You need greater availability of armed response officers able to
:10:46. > :10:52.deal effectively with serious incidents in all localities. If the
:10:53. > :10:56.incident is a major one, you have to bring in reinforcements to do that.
:10:57. > :11:00.I think the principle of an unarmed police force in the current state
:11:01. > :11:07.and age is probably obsolete. I know the idea would be to have a police
:11:08. > :11:11.force who can maintain that, but I think it is necessary given the
:11:12. > :11:14.serious threat to the country faces from global terrorists and mentally
:11:15. > :11:19.unstable people and just the generally violent nature of much of
:11:20. > :11:23.society today. Your reaction, Leroy? The thing is, you cannot cheat your
:11:24. > :11:30.way out of this problem. We have to recognise it is not just about army
:11:31. > :11:34.police officers. -- you cannot shoot your way out of this problem. The
:11:35. > :11:38.police of the community and the community are the police. The police
:11:39. > :11:42.have got to work in partnership with all sections of the community,
:11:43. > :11:48.including those sections where you can have lone wolves. It is not
:11:49. > :11:53.necessarily religion, it is urban deprivation and social exclusion. We
:11:54. > :11:57.have got to get the intelligence for those people to work with us and we
:11:58. > :12:01.cannot create barriers. There is a definite need for firearms but it
:12:02. > :12:04.needs to be done in a very bespoke way, knowing that trust and
:12:05. > :12:10.confidence can be eroded if we get it wrong. This Christmas all our
:12:11. > :12:14.high streets will be full of people shopping and going out for the
:12:15. > :12:18.Christmas lights. I would like everybody to visualise their local
:12:19. > :12:22.town and imagine how crowded the streets. Then ask yourself, if
:12:23. > :12:26.someone takes a heavy lorry like an Nice, and starts running people
:12:27. > :12:32.down, how the local police will stop it. The way the lorry was stopped in
:12:33. > :12:36.Nice was bicycle police with handguns on their hips, shooting the
:12:37. > :12:39.guy and stopping him. The point about Nice was the lorry should have
:12:40. > :12:55.been stopped by bards the road before its way out there. --
:12:56. > :12:59.bollards. Yes, but we are not going to have bollards on every road so
:13:00. > :13:04.when the lorry drives through the flower show, the local St George's
:13:05. > :13:08.day parade, how will you stop it? I think the important thing is to move
:13:09. > :13:12.the initiative further up the pathway, so people that are mentally
:13:13. > :13:16.unstable have been identified earlier, and held onto their
:13:17. > :13:20.medication, checked regularly. Of course prevention is better than
:13:21. > :13:25.cure but when push comes to shove... It is located in London when there
:13:26. > :13:30.are armed patrols going round everywhere, but in small market
:13:31. > :13:34.towns lots of people would be dead before the armed police got there.
:13:35. > :13:39.Times have changed and we need police to be routinely armed. But we
:13:40. > :13:44.don't have terror in small towns across the country. There have been
:13:45. > :13:49.one or two isolated incidents. If you want to avoid true recruitment
:13:50. > :13:53.of jihadists, the major political threat of suicide bombers, you have
:13:54. > :13:57.to reform the prison system, because that is where recruitment is going
:13:58. > :14:02.on even as we speak all the time. I agree with that. We cannot allow the
:14:03. > :14:05.terrorists to dictate to us what we do. What we are having a
:14:06. > :14:10.conversation about is changing our lifestyle, the look and feel of our
:14:11. > :14:15.police officers, just because terrorists are dictating to us. Are
:14:16. > :14:19.you saying that even with criminals, not just terrorists, if we had armed
:14:20. > :14:22.police that would change the attitude of criminals? Sometimes it
:14:23. > :14:27.can at the anti. I know some hardened criminals that have come
:14:28. > :14:31.from other countries who have stopped using their firearms. In
:14:32. > :14:35.other countries they will shoot on sight, whatever, but over here they
:14:36. > :14:39.adopt the culture. We do not have a strong gun culture, we have a
:14:40. > :14:45.different type of culture. Officers do not have to think them every
:14:46. > :14:49.time. You are smiling, James. There are no hard-core jihadist out there
:14:50. > :14:52.who think they were going to launch an attack but they see the police
:14:53. > :14:56.have a different approach and they decide not to do it. We are relying
:14:57. > :15:01.on to intelligence to make sure the community can tell us about these
:15:02. > :15:05.people. During the Olympics, people talked about armed officers but we
:15:06. > :15:08.had a light touch police and we had good community resolve and a
:15:09. > :15:11.partnership to give us the intelligence to stop these people
:15:12. > :15:14.behind-the-scenes. There were lots of incidents but fortunately it was
:15:15. > :15:20.a successful Games and you did not see security.
:15:21. > :15:27.Leroy is wrong, no one has answered the question about stopping the
:15:28. > :15:30.lorry once it has started. Another scenario, the German scenario,
:15:31. > :15:34.someone ran down the train chopping people up and was eventually stopped
:15:35. > :15:42.with a handgun. How do you stop that? Only a few years ago in
:15:43. > :15:47.Cumbria a man ran a mark in Cumbria, shooting dead 12 people in public.
:15:48. > :15:52.Unarmed police were unable to intervene. We need more subtlety in
:15:53. > :15:57.how we respond. I share much of what Leroy is saying, actually because I
:15:58. > :16:01.don't like to see these displays of people with big kit and big weapons.
:16:02. > :16:05.We need them but I like to see a more subtle approach with a handgun
:16:06. > :16:09.on the hip. What we have lost in policing is the brand image.
:16:10. > :16:14.Heavyweight body armour, stuff all around them and because we won't
:16:15. > :16:18.face the idea of let's have a view more handguns out locally, we've
:16:19. > :16:22.gone the other way and they look over the top. The person who gunned
:16:23. > :16:29.down the American tourist in Russell Square was stopped with a Taser.
:16:30. > :16:33.Knife attack. Knife attack. But he was stopped with a Taser and he
:16:34. > :16:39.survived so he can be interrogated and analysed, rather than shot dead.
:16:40. > :16:44.Can I deal with the Taser thing? Kevin raised the point about
:16:45. > :16:47.practical terms, how do police tackle someone who is on the
:16:48. > :16:51.rampage, so to speak, if they are not armed?
:16:52. > :16:59.Chris, I will bring you in, in a moment. Like everything, you will
:17:00. > :17:03.always have incidences. It is not a question that we don't respond to
:17:04. > :17:07.those things. It is very important we respond to those things.
:17:08. > :17:11.Unfortunately, police numbers have been eroded through spending cuts
:17:12. > :17:16.and the whole recession, they've got to build up those numbers. I do
:17:17. > :17:20.respect that you need more armed officers to ensure that you can
:17:21. > :17:29.respond to these incidences, especially in rural areas. I
:17:30. > :17:32.understand. But you can't say every officer will be in the right place
:17:33. > :17:35.at the right time because they have a gun? Chris, briefly, you want to
:17:36. > :17:40.intervene? The whole thing about proportion, there may be
:17:41. > :17:44.circumstances as in Russell Square where the Taser is effective. And
:17:45. > :17:47.look at the incident in Cumbria that was referred to, there was an
:17:48. > :17:51.incident I remember in Hungerford where another man went on the
:17:52. > :17:55.rampage with a gun. Those are situations when you need readily
:17:56. > :18:01.available effectively armed police who can deal with the situation and
:18:02. > :18:02.who are not unarmed, waiting for armed colleagues to come in from God
:18:03. > :18:05.knows how far away. You've been sending us your texts
:18:06. > :18:07.and tweets on this. Let's hear some of your reactions
:18:08. > :18:14.from Tommy. A lot of people say it is
:18:15. > :18:18.unfortunate a lot more armed police exist but it is the sign of the
:18:19. > :18:19.times and may be hoping that they will be more a deterrent to criminal
:18:20. > :18:37.activity. Is this the way things are going to
:18:38. > :19:07.be from now on? Terrorism is changing and the police
:19:08. > :19:13.can't stop that. I've seen Kevin nodding and Leroy you are shaking
:19:14. > :19:16.your head. I don't think you can totally anticipate someone who
:19:17. > :19:21.leaves their house with a knife and decide they will stab someone. Or
:19:22. > :19:25.someone gets into a vehicle, not necessarily a truck, any large
:19:26. > :19:30.vehicle, a van... We have got to detect those sort of peoples who are
:19:31. > :19:35.vulnerable. Whether it is in the communities, care in the community,
:19:36. > :19:41.whether it is around rehabilitation. These things are not being done. I'm
:19:42. > :19:45.doing anti-gang work in East London. The infrastructure to help people
:19:46. > :19:49.vulnerable to extremist view, whether it is based on religion or
:19:50. > :19:53.not is not being picked up. When they are supposed to be supported,
:19:54. > :19:59.they are left to the streets, who tell them, yeah, do this, do that. I
:20:00. > :20:06.don't disagree with anything Leroy says, absolutely right, as is Joan.
:20:07. > :20:10.But when these incidences happen, we need to stop them. It is not good
:20:11. > :20:14.enough having little clumps of heavily armed police in our big
:20:15. > :20:21.cities when someone runs a mock and does terrible damage. Just to park
:20:22. > :20:24.the Taser point, Joan. When we used the Taser at Leytonstone, you saw
:20:25. > :20:29.police officers running away, leaving the public vulnerable and
:20:30. > :20:32.they discharge the Taser several times before the darts stuck in
:20:33. > :20:37.their chests. What happened and Russell Square, officers responded
:20:38. > :20:41.with firearms and Taser. They had the luxury of using a Taser whilst
:20:42. > :20:46.covered by someone with a proper gun, that is the problem. Your
:20:47. > :20:51.reaction? People don't come out shooting and killing people from
:20:52. > :20:54.nowhere. There is always a trace that you can trace back into their
:20:55. > :21:02.lives, their contacts, their outlook. It needs to be captured
:21:03. > :21:05.earlier. Why is their crime? There is always a source and a way of
:21:06. > :21:10.identifying it, which we often acknowledge with the accounts coming
:21:11. > :21:14.up in the papers and we say, some some carer should have spotted that.
:21:15. > :21:18.On that note I will have to finish this part of the conversation, thank
:21:19. > :21:22.you so much, we could have gone on for much longer, I'm sure. Thank you
:21:23. > :21:28.for your comments, keep them coming in.
:21:29. > :21:30.Still to come: Gregory Porter, on the influence his
:21:31. > :21:42.Two days before she passed, she said to me, "Don't forget your music,
:21:43. > :21:45.it's the best thing you do, don't forget it".
:21:46. > :21:49.The words of a boss as he resigned this week over a sexism row.
:21:50. > :21:52.Kevin Roberts, the executive chairman of Saatchi Saatchi, one
:21:53. > :21:54.the world's best known advertising firms, stirred up a storm
:21:55. > :21:57.when he said he didn't think the lack of women in the industry
:21:58. > :22:02.He said many women and men simply wanted to be happy and do
:22:03. > :22:05.great work and some women had a circular rather than
:22:06. > :22:14.Saatchi's parent company says promoting gender equality starts
:22:15. > :22:18.at the top and the spirit there is vive la difference.
:22:19. > :22:20.But are women less ambitious than men at work
:22:21. > :22:22.or are they just held back by outdated attitudes?
:22:23. > :22:24.Tommy went to Manchester to find out what people
:22:25. > :22:41.We are here in Manchester in the business hub of the North and also
:22:42. > :22:45.the birthplace of suffragette Emily Pankhurst. Is there still a battle
:22:46. > :22:48.for equality to be fought in the workplace or is it just a case of
:22:49. > :22:54.different adages between men and women? Who is more ambitious in the
:22:55. > :23:00.workplace, men or women? Women. Because they want to get to the top.
:23:01. > :23:04.Isn't it a man's world and men dominate in the workplace? No way,
:23:05. > :23:08.it's a woman's world. Men can be more assertive but they have the
:23:09. > :23:15.same ambitions but are shy. Things have changed, women are. They are
:23:16. > :23:22.more likely dominant species, now. Should there be more female bosses?
:23:23. > :23:27.Absolutely. In the workplace, you with men, women, that's just how it
:23:28. > :23:31.goes. If you look at most businesses, they all run by men and
:23:32. > :23:35.the majority are run by men. In my personal experience, yes, most of my
:23:36. > :23:41.bosses have been male. It should be equal but it is just not, is it? It
:23:42. > :23:44.is the way we are brought up, I suppose. A lot of guys have the
:23:45. > :23:49.opportunity to stay at home, role reversal, it is more prevalent now.
:23:50. > :23:54.In the past, I know I could have done just as good a job as a man.
:23:55. > :24:01.But I couldn't because I had three children and I had to bring them up.
:24:02. > :24:05.That's the way it goes. What do you see around you? Independent women
:24:06. > :24:08.doing their own thing. It used to be focusing on men and women staying at
:24:09. > :24:12.home but that has changed, that was years ago. 2016 is all about the
:24:13. > :24:14.women. It's all about the women. Tommy with some views
:24:15. > :24:16.from Manchester there. So our question is are women
:24:17. > :24:18.less ambitious than men? Joining the panel now
:24:19. > :24:20.are Catherine Mayer, the co-founder of the Women's Equality Party
:24:21. > :24:23.in the UK, and the broadcaster Joining us from our newsroom studio
:24:24. > :24:28.is Elena Shalneva a writer Julia, you showed some sympathy for
:24:29. > :24:45.Kevin Roberts. Yes, absolutely, I think it reflects
:24:46. > :24:49.what a lot of women and career women go through. It is not a question of,
:24:50. > :24:53.we're not ambitious, we are not career women, that horrible phase
:24:54. > :24:57.that started around the time that you were on the April, that the idea
:24:58. > :25:01.you couldn't be anything other than a woman -- you on the apron.
:25:02. > :25:05.Virtually all of my friends have taken a bit of a backtrack on our
:25:06. > :25:09.careers for a few years while we have young children, not because our
:25:10. > :25:13.husbands beat us and make us do it. Not because of the nasty sexist
:25:14. > :25:18.bosses but we like our kids and we want to be mothers as well as have
:25:19. > :25:21.careers. Zero on the salary, job title doesn't give us as good a
:25:22. > :25:27.feeling about ourselves as being a mother. If a woman had made those
:25:28. > :25:31.comments, would they have been more palatable? The funny thing about
:25:32. > :25:36.what Kevin Roberts said is that he was right in one respect but right
:25:37. > :25:40.for the wrong reason. When he talked about the debate being over, he was
:25:41. > :25:44.right. But the debate is over only in the sense that there is such an
:25:45. > :25:48.eye watering wealth of evidence in favour of gender equality, not just
:25:49. > :25:53.for women but for men, and for business, for business to function
:25:54. > :25:57.well for economic growth that he took us back into a debate that we
:25:58. > :26:03.shouldn't even be having this debate today, really. Are women ambitious?
:26:04. > :26:07.It's so obvious what the issues are, here. From the moment boys and girls
:26:08. > :26:12.are born, they are given messaging about what appropriate behaviour is.
:26:13. > :26:18.When people try to behave differently, we throw obstacles in
:26:19. > :26:21.their path, does that mean some women what he called circular
:26:22. > :26:26.ambition or what Julia just described? Of course. Does it mean
:26:27. > :26:30.some people seek different career path? Different ambitions?
:26:31. > :26:38.Absolutely. That that does mean that there are great structural barriers
:26:39. > :26:42.to equality in the workplace to the equal participation? Absolutely. Is
:26:43. > :26:46.that bad for everybody, men and women, absolutely. This is really
:26:47. > :26:50.the debate we need to be having. James, when you look at the top
:26:51. > :26:55.roles in the workplace and there is still a gender gap, what do we put
:26:56. > :26:58.that down to? Sexism or a lack of ambition? It is good we are having
:26:59. > :27:02.this debate on the BBC and the line that Catherine would be taking,
:27:03. > :27:06.presumably, that there is terrible inequality still in business and
:27:07. > :27:13.there is a glass ceiling. And then there is Kevin's view, that no, this
:27:14. > :27:19.reflects the differences between men and women. Why is it fine to have
:27:20. > :27:23.this debate on TV but not within Saatchi Saatchi? Why is it the
:27:24. > :27:29.boat? Isn't it rather ironic that the company which owns Saatchi, the
:27:30. > :27:37.motto of France, but they won't take anyone other than one corporate
:27:38. > :27:40.view. -- vive la difference. Corporations have this monolithic
:27:41. > :27:46.view, people aren't allowed to speak their mind. I know it is a terrible
:27:47. > :27:53.crime these days, being a man. What is a crime, being a man? I am amazed
:27:54. > :27:56.I am allowed on this TV to talk about this. You have to check your
:27:57. > :27:59.white male straight privilege. Straight white men are pretty much
:28:00. > :28:04.not allowed to talk about anything controversial now, they will lose
:28:05. > :28:07.their jobs. This is a discussion that is very important for men,
:28:08. > :28:13.precisely because economic and social well-being is something that
:28:14. > :28:18.all of us need to be involved in. The problem with Kevin Roberts was
:28:19. > :28:23.that he was the boss of the company that was supposed to be fostering a
:28:24. > :28:31.culture in which women have equal chances to get ahead. Advertising
:28:32. > :28:37.has huge problems. 85% of purchasing decisions are made by women but only
:28:38. > :28:43.11% of creatives are women. Who cares? Who cares? Who cares? Joan, I
:28:44. > :28:48.care about your view because Julia referred to the longevity you had in
:28:49. > :28:53.your career in broadcasting. And as a woman in business. Have we got to
:28:54. > :28:59.the point where someone like James feels he can't make a point, here,
:29:00. > :29:04.or he can't make a comment... Yes! That is to do with his
:29:05. > :29:08.sensibilities. I have lived through decades when women have struggled
:29:09. > :29:10.for the search for opportunities and they have fallen short in their
:29:11. > :29:16.opportunities for many, many decades. It's getting better. It's
:29:17. > :29:20.just getting better. But of course, women remain ambitions for the jobs
:29:21. > :29:25.that those in power hold and don't want to yield. It is a male culture,
:29:26. > :29:30.still. Men, largely, rule the top jobs and they don't want to yield
:29:31. > :29:34.them, of course, he doesn't want to. As an advertising agent, he could
:29:35. > :29:39.have phrased his language better as someone who is in advertising, but
:29:40. > :29:45.he wants to explain the system, in his terms. But he can't see that the
:29:46. > :29:49.system has not yielded the world that women ideally want, including
:29:50. > :29:54.women who also want to stay at home and love their children. Many men
:29:55. > :30:00.also want to live a more moderate in life. We are now seeing the
:30:01. > :30:04.generation of stay at home fathers, who... A tiny percent. I am not
:30:05. > :30:07.talking about stay at home parents, just people who want a worklife
:30:08. > :30:13.balance. Men are ambitious for different things.
:30:14. > :30:17.I want to talk now to Elena Shalneva who worked in the City for 20 years
:30:18. > :30:29.Why did you leave the City, a top job? I left the City because I don't
:30:30. > :30:33.think working in a office for 35 years is the most natural way to
:30:34. > :30:37.spend your life. But in terms of what Kevin Roberts said, I
:30:38. > :30:41.absolutely agree. Look at what companies normally do now, a lot of
:30:42. > :30:47.companies, in trying to solve the gender issues. They tried to push as
:30:48. > :30:51.many women and other minorities as possible into the position of senior
:30:52. > :30:55.management or the board, regardless of whether these people are
:30:56. > :30:59.interested in these positions and have the temperament or inclination
:31:00. > :31:05.to do the work. But companies do that because it will look good on
:31:06. > :31:09.their diversity report. And on their quotas. What Kevin Roberts said is,
:31:10. > :31:13.guys, let's look at this differently. Not all men or women,
:31:14. > :31:18.and by the way he always spoke about both men and women, which is
:31:19. > :31:22.something his critics failed to acknowledge, both want to be chief
:31:23. > :31:26.executive officers. Instead of pushing them into these positions to
:31:27. > :31:32.meet our quotas, let's help young people early in their careers
:31:33. > :31:37.identify the positions their role and industry, that they will do for
:31:38. > :31:42.30 or 40 years, and let's train them to do it as well as they can, and
:31:43. > :31:46.then create an environment where we promote people to the positions that
:31:47. > :31:53.they themselves want to be in, rather than the ones we have in mind
:31:54. > :32:00.for them. Is it tokenism? Pushing women forward? The reason that I
:32:01. > :32:05.founded the Women's Equality Party is because legislative change can
:32:06. > :32:08.create cultural change. One of the things this sofa confuses is that
:32:09. > :32:13.there is huge unanimity in business and in politics that enhancing
:32:14. > :32:19.gender equality actually brings benefits for everyone. The things
:32:20. > :32:26.that hold women back, childcare, affordable childcare, it is one of
:32:27. > :32:32.our core policies... Don't men have children as well? Precisely. Why on
:32:33. > :32:35.earth do we think that childcare is about women? Julia, thank you. You
:32:36. > :32:42.are agreeing with me, if you listen to me. It doesn't hold women back.
:32:43. > :32:45.It holds women back because of the gender pay gap. Very often men are
:32:46. > :32:49.the ones who say they cannot afford to stay at home because of the
:32:50. > :32:53.gender pay back. You need to do what Nordic countries did and make it
:32:54. > :32:57.absolutely normal for equal parenting, for there to be shared
:32:58. > :33:01.parental leave, for that parental leave to actually be accessible to
:33:02. > :33:04.everybody. It created a huge cultural change in the Nordic
:33:05. > :33:13.countries, and this is something that we could so easily do here. The
:33:14. > :33:19.gender pay gap only opens up at the age where women begin to start
:33:20. > :33:22.having children. James? Unanimity in business, there clearly is because
:33:23. > :33:32.this guy disagreed and he got pushed out of his job for it. -- there
:33:33. > :33:36.clearly isn't. I thought Elena was fantastic and told it like it is. I
:33:37. > :33:40.really respect women who speak out on these issues because there is so
:33:41. > :33:43.much pressure to take the stand that women are oppressed and we are women
:33:44. > :33:49.and it is our job to be oppressed and angry. I think most women
:33:50. > :33:54.watching the show will agree with Julia. We did not say we are
:33:55. > :33:57.oppressed. We said we are ambitious. You said he is an advertising man
:33:58. > :34:00.and he could have expressed himself better. I read the text of the
:34:01. > :34:05.interview and he bent over backwards. He was sounding like a
:34:06. > :34:09.feminist actually. He said men are dinosaurs, he said men have a wrong
:34:10. > :34:17.view of the world. He was praising women and not criticising them. He
:34:18. > :34:20.was trying to protect himself very badly. He is in the industry and he
:34:21. > :34:24.has a view. It is a nice technique to praise women while promoting
:34:25. > :34:29.them. It is a style that expresses the sense of superiority that
:34:30. > :34:31.people, men, who have reached the top of their professions,
:34:32. > :34:37.professions that indeed many men and women don't want to aspire to, used
:34:38. > :34:41.to explain the fact that he is there and others are not. I wish we could
:34:42. > :34:45.stop talking about men and women? Can we talk about people, their
:34:46. > :34:51.ambitions for jobs and careers and formative life? When we start doing
:34:52. > :34:55.that, we have got somewhere. What is everybody saying at home? Women tend
:34:56. > :34:58.to prioritise family overwork but the majority of people think it
:34:59. > :35:34.depends on the individual and what we want out of life.
:35:35. > :35:45.Bosses sitting around and not doing anything? Does that happen!
:35:46. > :35:56.If it all goes after day, James, I have your back! Some support for
:35:57. > :36:00.you, James! What do you think of the comments? It is just expressing
:36:01. > :36:03.something that we all know. I have a whole raft of friends, professional,
:36:04. > :36:09.university educated, ambitious career women, and when they have had
:36:10. > :36:13.children, they have said they really enjoy being a mum, like I do, and
:36:14. > :36:17.they want to spend more time with the kids. To pretend there isn't a
:36:18. > :36:21.biological difference between the way that most mothers mother and
:36:22. > :36:25.most fathers father, I think it is a nonsense and an insult to
:36:26. > :36:29.intelligent women. Most women watching this don't feel like
:36:30. > :36:33.victims of sexism. If you told my nine-year-old he can't do or be
:36:34. > :36:41.anything she wants to be, she would think you were insane. This isn't
:36:42. > :36:45.about free choice. Choices come from cultures. We're not talking about
:36:46. > :36:52.being victims. We are talking about something that is good for everybody
:36:53. > :37:00.but you are intent on a threadbare notion. You have given me the last
:37:01. > :37:04.word! Brief last word! The point about making these changes is it
:37:05. > :37:08.would lead to better business. The point about people saying there are
:37:09. > :37:12.not women with experience to be on board. If you don't promote women,
:37:13. > :37:16.you don't get the women with experience to be on board. You have
:37:17. > :37:23.to find ways of breaking the logjam is to the benefit of all of us and
:37:24. > :37:27.it is very easy to do that, which is why the Women's Equality Party
:37:28. > :37:30.exists! The last word and a plug! Thank you for your comments and keep
:37:31. > :37:34.them coming in. Gregory Porter is an American jazz
:37:35. > :37:37.vocalist, songwriter and actor. But he also doesn't mind
:37:38. > :37:39.being known as a mama's boy. He counts his mother,
:37:40. > :37:42.a preacher, as a huge influence Nikki Bedi went to meet him to talk
:37:43. > :37:46.about his childhood, his inspirations
:37:47. > :37:54.and his trademark hat. Gregory Porter, you are a huge star
:37:55. > :38:00.in America, a Grammy award-winning musician, but we love you in the UK.
:38:01. > :38:04.How much do you love us and what do you love about us? There are so many
:38:05. > :38:13.things that I love about the UK. We don't have any royalty. In the US.
:38:14. > :38:20.That is a pretty magical thing. You played at Buckingham Palace, didn't
:38:21. > :38:21.you? Yes. They also had me for a day of remembrance celebration at Royal
:38:22. > :39:00.Albert Hall. After singing, I bowed to the Queen
:39:01. > :39:04.and I waved. I am just an American boy from Bakersfield, what am I
:39:05. > :39:08.doing here? It was a grand experience. You are quite late
:39:09. > :39:13.coming to a recording career. How old were you when you made your
:39:14. > :39:19.first record? 38 and 39 when it was first released. By the time I got
:39:20. > :39:22.over to you, I was 40. Your mother had some sort of influence on you
:39:23. > :39:28.actually pursuing your musical career, didn't she? Yes, two days
:39:29. > :39:34.before she passed, she said to me, don't forget your music. It is the
:39:35. > :39:38.best thing you do and don't forget it. Her teachings to me find their
:39:39. > :39:42.way into the music. Whether I am conscious of it or not at the time
:39:43. > :39:59.of writing, after I listened to it, I am like that is mom. Tell me about
:40:00. > :40:05.her. She was a storefront preacher. She's set up in the worst places.
:40:06. > :40:09.She set up on Lakeview Avenue, a street with prostitutes and homeless
:40:10. > :40:18.people, they were there. We had a little PA system and I learned how
:40:19. > :40:22.to sing there. Not in a posh church. I learned how to sing to the
:40:23. > :40:26.afflicted ones, the lonely ones, the hungry ones, the people who lost
:40:27. > :40:37.their way. # Take me to the avenue.
:40:38. > :40:42.# Take me to the afflicted ones. So your mother would literally set up a
:40:43. > :40:49.church in a storefront. What was she breaching? She was definitely on the
:40:50. > :40:54.extreme side of life. Redeemed. She would get a calling to do these
:40:55. > :41:01.things and she would do them. Do you have a similar calling? I have a
:41:02. > :41:08.similar calling for messages of love and mutual respect. I think those
:41:09. > :41:16.things, irrepressible love, those things keep finding their way into
:41:17. > :41:23.my music. # There are people down the way
:41:24. > :41:28.thirsty... When you are performing, are you channelling some sort of
:41:29. > :41:36.spirit, God, energy? I always have. I grew up singing in the church so
:41:37. > :41:45.this energy, in a way, this gift, this performance, for God, has
:41:46. > :41:52.happened absolutely on stage. It is interesting because as smooth and
:41:53. > :41:57.mellifluous your voices, your lyrics sometimes have a hard-hitting, edgy
:41:58. > :42:03.message. Is that important to you? Is it deliberate? Yes, it is
:42:04. > :42:07.deliberate. Every day there is a new one. We have to talk about these
:42:08. > :42:10.things. # There was a man.
:42:11. > :42:19.# Voice of the people. # Standing on the balcony... We have
:42:20. > :42:22.to talk about our differences and the foundations of acceptance and
:42:23. > :42:35.the idea that other is not always negative and bad. I think sometimes
:42:36. > :42:41.when this rise of negative energy towards the different, the other,
:42:42. > :42:45.the underneath, there is also a counter energy and I feel like I
:42:46. > :42:51.want to be part of that counter energy. Do you ever experience
:42:52. > :42:55.racism and have you ever? I have had enormous difficulties in my life and
:42:56. > :43:03.we as a family were attacked quite a bit. We had a cross burned in our
:43:04. > :43:09.yard and they would urinate in bottles and throw them through our
:43:10. > :43:14.windows every other weekend. That happened multiple times. Where you
:43:15. > :43:19.frightened? Yes, until my mother got in my face and said, I am here, I
:43:20. > :43:24.will protect you. You are below no one. You are not above anyone but
:43:25. > :43:32.you are below nobody. It did have an effect on us for a little while. It
:43:33. > :43:43.was scary, but I think, and I hope, that I am part of the energy of the
:43:44. > :43:47.pushback to negativity and hate and intolerance and misunderstanding
:43:48. > :43:57.between people. # Won't somebody help me? Well, we
:43:58. > :44:01.come to the hat. Like so many jazz stars before who have had a
:44:02. > :44:06.particular piece of headgear, it is a thing. Could you perform without
:44:07. > :44:16.it? I think my voice would be different!
:44:17. > :44:23.Peace and love! God bless you. The marvellous Gregory Porter. I doff my
:44:24. > :44:25.cap to him. How important is it to know
:44:26. > :44:27.more about religion? Very, according to the all-party
:44:28. > :44:29.parliamentary group They've recommended that not only
:44:30. > :44:33.should RE in schools be more strongly supported,
:44:34. > :44:34.but that teaching in religious literacy should be
:44:35. > :44:36.widely encouraged in universities, prisons, government departments,
:44:37. > :44:41.councils and the general workplace. Stephen Evans,
:44:42. > :44:42.the campaigns director of the National Secular Society,
:44:43. > :44:45.says that we shouldn't blindly accept that religious literacy
:44:46. > :44:47.is a necessary pre-condition is it important
:44:48. > :44:57.to learn about religion? Joining the panel is Naved Siddiqi,
:44:58. > :45:00.from the Islamic Society of Britain. Dr Matthew Francis, co-author
:45:01. > :45:03.of a report on religious literacy of the National Secular Society,
:45:04. > :45:12.the executive director and joining us from our newsroom
:45:13. > :45:15.balcony is Paul Barber, director of the Catholic
:45:16. > :45:22.Education Service. Matthew, when we talk about
:45:23. > :45:34.religious literacy, what do we mean? We are talking about giving people
:45:35. > :45:38.the knowledge and confidence to have a better quality of conversation
:45:39. > :45:41.upon religious and nonreligious identities. That's something that
:45:42. > :45:45.particularly important after a time of half a century or so when we've
:45:46. > :45:48.not talked about religion in the public sphere. People don't have the
:45:49. > :45:53.knowledge, vocabulary, to be able to engage with these issues and that is
:45:54. > :45:57.important for people's relationship in the workplace and understanding
:45:58. > :46:00.some of the new stories we see so frequently now. Keith, your concerns
:46:01. > :46:08.when we talk about religious literacy being needed? We mustn't
:46:09. > :46:09.forget that the vast majority of the population are actually
:46:10. > :46:13.nonreligious, particularly young people.
:46:14. > :46:18.They seem to be, kind of, left behind in all of this.
:46:19. > :46:26.We should be concentrating much more on what binds us and our common
:46:27. > :46:28.humanity, rather than obsessing about religion in every aspect of
:46:29. > :46:39.life. I would much prefer to see... Much
:46:40. > :46:44.more emphasis in religious education on philosophy.
:46:45. > :46:51.And ethics, partly from a nonreligious perspective. And logic.
:46:52. > :46:57.And civics. And human rights. Those kinds of things which we are
:46:58. > :47:02.woefully underrepresented in the school curriculum. -- which are. The
:47:03. > :47:05.people pushing this agenda are very often people who are determined to
:47:06. > :47:10.get more religion forced into schools where kids are almost
:47:11. > :47:15.captive. That's just wrong. What about the impact religion is having
:47:16. > :47:19.on life and society in terms of how do we need to understand and do we
:47:20. > :47:22.need to have a deeper understanding of religion? First of all, I don't
:47:23. > :47:29.see the secular and religious as two separate boxes. I see much common
:47:30. > :47:33.space, there. When we are talking about a level playing field and
:47:34. > :47:36.about the land space that we all share, we need to get much more
:47:37. > :47:44.comfortable with the terms secular and religious. At a broad level, I
:47:45. > :47:49.think that the values and the teachings that all phones in part
:47:50. > :47:55.and the lessons you find in assemblies, these are very much
:47:56. > :47:59.morals -- all homes in part. They can be religious and can be secular.
:48:00. > :48:02.When you are talking about the land space that we all share, we are
:48:03. > :48:06.talking about the secular environment. In order to create a
:48:07. > :48:10.level playing field, we need to get more comfortable about these things.
:48:11. > :48:14.I don't think it should be so much about what the agenda and who's in
:48:15. > :48:19.control. I think it needs to be much more about understanding the place
:48:20. > :48:23.of religion in society. In a secular environment, is there a
:48:24. > :48:27.misunderstanding of certain religions, particularly Islam for
:48:28. > :48:31.example is to mark whether it is Islam or religion in general, there
:48:32. > :48:37.can be a fear of religion wanting to exert too much control. -- Islam for
:48:38. > :48:42.example? The question is about getting the right balance and how we
:48:43. > :48:47.build a society on morals, with moral teachings. Where everybody has
:48:48. > :48:53.an equal stake. And where people can understand things better. But I
:48:54. > :48:58.think what is striking, for me, is the level of religious illiteracy.
:48:59. > :49:04.Even if it comes to basics about perspective all about numbers were
:49:05. > :49:05.about how religions feature -- or about. The historical significance
:49:06. > :49:14.of religion. It will be striking how little
:49:15. > :49:17.people know. Joan, how important is it that the next generation is
:49:18. > :49:23.taught about religion and has religious literacy? I think it is
:49:24. > :49:26.very important. Religion is very important in all societies. It is
:49:27. > :49:32.important that people know how that has come about and about 3000 years
:49:33. > :49:36.ago, humanity began to develop different aspects and philosophies
:49:37. > :49:39.of religion. The great religions of the world were born about 2000, 1000
:49:40. > :49:50.years before Christ. Those emerged. They did create moral codes by which
:49:51. > :49:55.their communities should live. But they attached those moral codes to
:49:56. > :49:58.supernatural explanations, so you get miracles and holy people and the
:49:59. > :50:03.concept of God someone else beyond life. The variety is extremely
:50:04. > :50:08.important, what ever your particular faith. -- the morality. But the
:50:09. > :50:11.belief in supernatural requires faith but not evidence, because
:50:12. > :50:15.there is no evidence for supernatural elements.
:50:16. > :50:21.I think we ought to know how religions are constructed, we should
:50:22. > :50:25.know about all their different sets and beliefs and we should find that
:50:26. > :50:28.many of them have in common the Ten Commandments have much in common
:50:29. > :50:34.with the teaching of Islam. The welcoming of strangers and arms for
:50:35. > :50:39.the needy. It is important we know it is stories. That is one of the
:50:40. > :50:44.great sources of enjoyment. It is found that young people don't know
:50:45. > :50:49.the story... Who the 12 disciples were, they don't know about the old
:50:50. > :50:56.Testament. They know fairy stories about no and stories are very good.
:50:57. > :50:59.-- about Noah. Stories are the burden of morality that morality
:51:00. > :51:04.exists and the stories which are man's narrative to itself. Let's
:51:05. > :51:05.talk about someone who is very involved in education on religious
:51:06. > :51:07.subjects. Let's bring in Paul Barber, director
:51:08. > :51:13.of the Catholic Education Service. You've been listening to this
:51:14. > :51:16.conversation, what should schools be doing? What should they be teaching
:51:17. > :51:22.our children? Good morning, the first thing to say is very much
:51:23. > :51:26.welcoming the analysis and recommendations of the all-party
:51:27. > :51:31.group, the report. I think it has done a very good job of capturing
:51:32. > :51:38.what religious literacy is and some very good challenges that are faced
:51:39. > :51:42.by schools in creating good religious literacy. And some
:51:43. > :51:45.excellent recommendations. Briefly, time is short.
:51:46. > :51:54.The key thing here links to what Joan was saying, religious literacy
:51:55. > :51:57.is giving people the tools to have a dialogue.
:51:58. > :52:04.It's knowing each other's stories is important but it is deeper than
:52:05. > :52:09.that, it's an ability to look critically and engage critically
:52:10. > :52:13.with one's own beliefs and with others in an open and respectful
:52:14. > :52:17.way. To have a dialogue about the religious questions in a more than
:52:18. > :52:21.merely superficial way. Matthew, how detrimental could it be to other
:52:22. > :52:26.subjects if there is too much of a focus on religion in schools? The
:52:27. > :52:30.important thing about focusing religion in schools is separating
:52:31. > :52:33.the confessional from educational. I am not saying we need more religious
:52:34. > :52:37.education to teach people to be a particular religion but I'm
:52:38. > :52:40.interested in in teaching people about religion from what we know
:52:41. > :52:46.about scientific study of religion. There is a lot of serious stuff that
:52:47. > :52:49.we can learn from. Things like these hard binaries of religious and
:52:50. > :52:53.secular optically unhelpful at times. A lot of people who say they
:52:54. > :52:57.are not religious but they didn't belong to a religious institution,
:52:58. > :53:00.they might be spiritual, they might be interested in certain aspects but
:53:01. > :53:04.they don't belong to a particular institution. That level of detail is
:53:05. > :53:09.important. For too long, we have had these lessons which say, we must
:53:10. > :53:12.believe in X and all Christians believe in why. That does not
:53:13. > :53:15.reflect the landscape of this country. Tommy, what are people
:53:16. > :53:24.saying? A lot of people say that religion is
:53:25. > :53:25.important in education but it shouldn't be prioritised over other
:53:26. > :54:08.subjects. More about morals. Keith, you wanted
:54:09. > :54:20.to respond? I do agree with Matthew that it
:54:21. > :54:24.shouldn't be confessional. The all-party group that was given such
:54:25. > :54:28.a glowing report just now, it's extraordinary that the founder of it
:54:29. > :54:33.has just denounced it as resembling a religious cult, under the current
:54:34. > :54:42.people who've written the very report that is just been pushed. I
:54:43. > :54:45.think we need to be very conscious. The government has just ignored a
:54:46. > :54:49.judicial review saying they are not giving enough emphasis to the
:54:50. > :54:55.nonreligious perspective. We really do need to make sure that the
:54:56. > :54:58.majority of people's religious perspectives and philosophical
:54:59. > :55:02.perspectives are respected in our schools. In many ways this is a
:55:03. > :55:06.generational issue, isn't it? Anybody that is under 25 today, that
:55:07. > :55:13.includes my children, that includes half of Britain's Muslims, they've
:55:14. > :55:17.never known a world before the 9/11 terror attacks. They have been
:55:18. > :55:21.shrouded by this conversation that religion is a problem.
:55:22. > :55:28.We need to help a generation through that. A better understanding of
:55:29. > :55:33.religious teachings and religious history has got to be an important
:55:34. > :55:37.component of that. I think that is an extremely important point because
:55:38. > :55:41.very often religion is a problem. And the political dimension of
:55:42. > :55:45.religion can be very damaging, I refer you to Northern Ireland.
:55:46. > :55:50.Conflict perpetuated by a division between two Christian sects if you
:55:51. > :55:59.like. The political possibilities of a religion, which bases its
:56:00. > :56:03.obedience in supernatural faith is very problematic. It needs to be
:56:04. > :56:08.spun out for people, so they can make a judgment. Thank you all.
:56:09. > :56:12.Let me thank our guests and you at home for your contributions.
:56:13. > :56:17.This weekend in London sees Ot Azoy, a celebration of Yiddish language,
:56:18. > :56:20.Among those taking part will be Shura Lipovsky,
:56:21. > :56:26.And we can now hear them performing for us the song Abi Gezunt,
:56:27. > :56:32.From me, and everyone here, goodbye.
:56:33. > :56:48.# A bisl zun a bisl regn # A ruik ort dem kop tsu leygn
:56:49. > :56:56.# Abi gezunt, ken men gliklekh zayn # A shukh, A zok, a kleyd on lates
:56:57. > :57:00.# In keshene dray fir Zlotes # Di zun zi sheynt far yedn
:57:01. > :57:18.eynem orem oder raykh # A bisl freyd, a bisl lakhn
:57:19. > :57:23.amol mit fraynt a shnepzl makhn # Eyner sukht ashires
:57:24. > :57:33.eyner sukht gvires # Eyner meynt dos gantse Glik
:57:34. > :57:44.hengt nor op in gelt # Zoln ale zikhn, zoln ale krikhn
:57:45. > :57:51.nor ikh trakht bay zikh # Ikh darf dos oyf kaporez vayl Dos
:57:52. > :58:05.glik shteyt bay mayn tir # # A bisl freyd, a bisl lakhn
:58:06. > :58:16.amol mit fraynt a shnepzl makhn # Di zun zi sheynt far yedn
:58:17. > :58:30.eynem orem oder raykh # A bisl freyd, a bisl lakhn
:58:31. > :58:34.amol mit fraynt a shnepzl makhn # A bisl freyd, a bisl lakhn
:58:35. > :58:50.amol mit fraynt a shnepzl makhn