:00:00. > :00:13.A schoolgirl who went to Syria to join so-called Islamic State
:00:14. > :00:16.is reportedly killed by an air strike.
:00:17. > :00:20.Kadiza Sultana's family believes she wanted to come home.
:00:21. > :00:24.Should we help young people like her to come back to the UK?
:00:25. > :00:27.This is one of the most iconic images of the Troubles
:00:28. > :00:33.A priest braving bullets, trying to save a life.
:00:34. > :00:35.Edward Daly became a bishop and helped stop the violence.
:00:36. > :00:37.Do modern religious leaders have such influence?
:00:38. > :00:55.Premier League football returned this weekend, along with Paul Pogba
:00:56. > :01:01.As we watch Britain's Olympians giving their all for the glory
:01:02. > :01:04.of a gold medal, we ask, does football promote greed?
:01:05. > :01:09.And, we need some help with directions!
:01:10. > :01:11.# Show me the way to Amarillo
:01:12. > :01:19.Why Tony Christie never tires of singing that song.
:01:20. > :01:24.# And sweet Marie who waits for me
:01:25. > :01:36.Every DJ I ever meet, they say, if we are having a bad night, and then
:01:37. > :01:40.we put Amarillo on, the floor is full.
:01:41. > :01:42.Tommy's away this week but we welcome Samanthi Flanagan
:01:43. > :01:45.who's here to share all your thoughts with us.
:01:46. > :01:55.And Twitter - don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml.
:01:56. > :02:01.Standard geographic charges from landlines
:02:02. > :02:10.Texts will be charged at your standard message rate.
:02:11. > :02:14.Email us at: sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk.
:02:15. > :02:18.And, if you do get in touch, don't forget to include your name.
:02:19. > :02:23.Let's meet some of our guests this week.
:02:24. > :02:28.Owen Jones is a journalist and Guardian columnist.
:02:29. > :02:32.Ajmal Masroor is an imam and commentator.
:02:33. > :02:36.Kiran Bali is an interfaith leader and global CEO
:02:37. > :02:48.Kadiza Sultana was just 16 when, together with two 15-year-old
:02:49. > :02:52.friends, she left Britain to become a Jihadi bride in Syria.
:02:53. > :02:54.Security camera footage revealed the girls' progress
:02:55. > :02:59.They flew from Gatwick to Turkey and crossed the border into Syria.
:03:00. > :03:02.The pictures were shown around the world, but it was too late
:03:03. > :03:05.to prevent their plan to join so-called Islamic State.
:03:06. > :03:09.Now it's reported that Kadiza has been killed in an air strike.
:03:10. > :03:12.She kept in touch with her family in east London by phone,
:03:13. > :03:15.and they believe she wanted to come home but was afraid
:03:16. > :03:21.How to stop the radicalisation of young Muslims is one.
:03:22. > :03:24.But should we also consider helping those who have become disillusioned
:03:25. > :03:33.Should we make it easier for people to return from Syria?
:03:34. > :03:37.How surprised should we be to learn of the apparent death
:03:38. > :03:42.of somebody like Kadiza Sultana?
:03:43. > :03:49.I am not surprised. If you go into a war zone, you take that decision,
:03:50. > :03:54.and you die. I have said before, she should not
:03:55. > :04:01.have gone there in the first place, they are crazy. Any young person
:04:02. > :04:07.thinking this is an idealistic environment, I spoke to some members
:04:08. > :04:11.of the families of Kadiza and they say she was radicalised by the
:04:12. > :04:15.Internet. The family is not that religious.
:04:16. > :04:20.This is very sad. The second thing, if anybody does not like Britain and
:04:21. > :04:26.they want to change what they see, they should get involved, be
:04:27. > :04:30.politically active, take roles, become social activists. If they
:04:31. > :04:36.feel so vengeful and such hatred they want to harm us, it is a simple
:04:37. > :04:42.equation, return the passport and leave. You cannot live in a country
:04:43. > :04:47.and attack it. Those who have gone over, like Kadiza Sultana, if they
:04:48. > :04:51.have remorse and want to return, we should assess its case-by-case but
:04:52. > :04:56.they should not be a blanket them to return.
:04:57. > :05:01.You say she made the decision, some say she was brainwashed.
:05:02. > :05:07.I have heard that. Nick Ferrari, she was 16, does that allow any
:05:08. > :05:09.abdication of responsibility for a decision?
:05:10. > :05:12.Your question, should we make it easy people to return, the answer
:05:13. > :05:18.is, no. I feel sorry for their family. She
:05:19. > :05:23.was a bright young woman, she knew what she was doing, she managed to
:05:24. > :05:30.raise funds and get a passport. It is sad she was radicalised. If at
:05:31. > :05:34.that low level, jihadi bride, maybe we could hold out a hand to them.
:05:35. > :05:39.But, for the young men, it is believed there could be up to 400
:05:40. > :05:44.from Britain, who have gone as fighters, I don't want them back. If
:05:45. > :05:50.they are rich jewel National, take away their British citizenship. If
:05:51. > :05:55.they are not, then even look at taking away their citizenship. We
:05:56. > :05:59.have 2000 people the security services have two monitor, we don't
:06:00. > :06:08.need another 400. We talk about sympathy, and being
:06:09. > :06:13.brainwashed, as a 16-year-old. There have been articles about people
:06:14. > :06:18.being more sympathetic to children being sexually groomed, but not
:06:19. > :06:24.militantly groomed. We need to distinguish between young
:06:25. > :06:30.girls who are jihadi brides, and young men who go over to fight and
:06:31. > :06:37.commit appalling crimes. The profile of those radicalised can
:06:38. > :06:43.be different, disproportionately from families who are not religious.
:06:44. > :06:48.The killers of Lee Rigby came from a Christian family. Those from
:06:49. > :06:51.dysfunctional backgrounds, drug abuse, petty theft.
:06:52. > :07:01.These young girls seem well adjusted. Going to Syria. The cases
:07:02. > :07:07.are so different. It is not one size fits all. Pragmatically, there will
:07:08. > :07:16.be a debate over sympathy for young girls. We hear about Mexican drug
:07:17. > :07:22.gangs and young girls involved. Whether you have sympathy or not is
:07:23. > :07:26.irrelevant. From a hard nosed, pragmatic perspective, isn't it
:07:27. > :07:32.useful to bring those girls home in order to learn from their examples,
:07:33. > :07:36.to prevent other people from going down the same path and get
:07:37. > :07:41.intelligence? We heard from the family she wanted
:07:42. > :07:46.to come home. Decisions need to be made on a
:07:47. > :07:50.case-by-case basis. We have an impressionable teenager who has been
:07:51. > :07:54.brainwashed who realises she has made a catastrophic decision. By
:07:55. > :07:59.making it easier we can bring the girls back, get intelligence from
:08:00. > :08:03.them, and utilise them as role models to ensure we don't
:08:04. > :08:08.radicalised others. To say, don't follow this route.
:08:09. > :08:17.What intelligence do you think we will get?
:08:18. > :08:22.They are living in the back streets of Raqqa. What intelligence can we
:08:23. > :08:27.get? Lots of people have gone over.
:08:28. > :08:35.You would bring the fighters back? It depends.
:08:36. > :08:39.Let me interrupt, the first question, what intelligence can be
:08:40. > :08:46.brought back? I want to say, case by case. I have
:08:47. > :08:51.no idea who is a fighter. I have said no to an open door policy to
:08:52. > :08:56.return. Simply, if someone has remorse,
:08:57. > :09:02.given clear indications they have regretted their decision, and were
:09:03. > :09:08.So Yeon... Can I finish -- they were so young. If they had been groomed,
:09:09. > :09:14.as being too impressionable. Those people who have gone, male or
:09:15. > :09:19.female, committed heinous crimes, perpetrated crimes against all of
:09:20. > :09:24.us, the clear message is this is not an open policy to return.
:09:25. > :09:30.Let us go to headset Iqbal, the West Midlands lead on the governments
:09:31. > :09:36.Prevent Programme. How does the Prevent Programme
:09:37. > :09:40.prevent people from becoming involved in terrorism. But once they
:09:41. > :09:45.are out there, should we make it easier for them to be brought back
:09:46. > :09:49.home, could they provide intelligence?
:09:50. > :09:55.Can I say, the death of Kadiza is a tragedy, not just for her family,
:09:56. > :10:01.but for all of us. She could have been anybody's daughter, sister,
:10:02. > :10:05.Denise. The reality is what has happened to her up there, I
:10:06. > :10:11.certainly hope it stands as an example and prevents other people
:10:12. > :10:17.from making the same mistake. Kadiza went out there, she was groomed, she
:10:18. > :10:20.was sold a utopia of what Syria would be like.
:10:21. > :10:26.A number of your guests in the studio have used this term,
:10:27. > :10:31.grooming, this is the same as child sexual exploitation. She went under
:10:32. > :10:36.a premise she was going to an amazing Islamic state. There is
:10:37. > :10:41.nothing Islamic there. She went as a jihadi brides, the mother of the
:10:42. > :10:45.next generation, it is sexual exploitation. It is a fair question,
:10:46. > :10:52.should we be supporting these young people when they want to come back?
:10:53. > :10:57.Kadiza wanted to come back to this country. From the reports from her
:10:58. > :11:05.lawyer and her family... What is the value of her coming
:11:06. > :11:08.back? What can she bring, any intelligence? What use will she be
:11:09. > :11:14.back in a community here after saying she did not want to be here.
:11:15. > :11:19.It is a strange question, what value has she is a human being?
:11:20. > :11:24.These youngsters are being enticed. She wanted to come back because she
:11:25. > :11:29.realised this is not what she had gone out for. She saw the murder of
:11:30. > :11:33.someone who was trying to escape back life, someone being beaten to
:11:34. > :11:38.death in the street. That was the only thing stopping her from coming
:11:39. > :11:43.back. We do know of people who have gone out to Syria who have been
:11:44. > :11:49.reintegrated into society using the multi-agency partnerships, the
:11:50. > :11:55.support they are given. This needs to be done on a case-by-case basis.
:11:56. > :12:01.If we know individuals have been involved with illegal activity, with
:12:02. > :12:05.some of the murderous activity, it is a different issue. These young
:12:06. > :12:08.girls have gone out there, being brainwashed into believing
:12:09. > :12:13.something, who want to come back, there is nothing stopping them.
:12:14. > :12:20.There is a wider question, what should we be doing to stop them
:12:21. > :12:26.going out there in the first place? You have also on a case-by-case
:12:27. > :12:33.basis. Next, can you see why sympathy would be offered to Kadiza?
:12:34. > :12:37.Yes, I can. This is a bright young woman. It is not that she had run
:12:38. > :12:42.away with her boyfriend of girlfriend.
:12:43. > :12:47.She would have known what she was getting into if she is as bright. It
:12:48. > :12:57.is very sad, of course I have sympathy. All the time there is this
:12:58. > :13:05.Laura, and it would appear ISPs losing -- lure.
:13:06. > :13:12.You honestly saying he would bring back who has fought for Islamic
:13:13. > :13:18.State? We have a criminal system, if they
:13:19. > :13:22.have served their sentences, why wouldn't we rehabilitate anyone who
:13:23. > :13:27.has been punished for their crimes? You would have brought Jihadi John
:13:28. > :13:32.home? Yes or no? Answer my question. With
:13:33. > :13:42.murderers, sex criminals, put them in jail, after due process, if they
:13:43. > :13:47.have served their time, would you punish them, kill them?
:13:48. > :13:51.Of course I wouldn't. This is a domestic crime. I have
:13:52. > :13:54.told you they would get life terms and go through the system.
:13:55. > :14:01.Someone who committed barbaric murders, which you bring him back?
:14:02. > :14:07.I don't want him back. It is not going to be business as usual for
:14:08. > :14:11.them if they return. They are going to be detained. They will follow a
:14:12. > :14:15.process in the criminal justice system. Do you want them living next
:14:16. > :14:21.door to you? Nick is expressing the concern that many people would have,
:14:22. > :14:26.but we have a justis system and most of democracy agrees with that. Owen.
:14:27. > :14:33.I don't think people are suggesting that we send the Metropolitan Police
:14:34. > :14:38.into Syria to sweep them up. Look, Harold Shipman killed 250 people, I
:14:39. > :14:46.lived just down the road. We believe in the rule of law in this country
:14:47. > :14:51.which hopefully distinguisheses us from these hate cults around the
:14:52. > :14:55.world. The difference is, we are talking about young girls who've
:14:56. > :15:00.been brainwashed. Very to say Nick, I was disappointed, as I have a huge
:15:01. > :15:05.amount of respect for you, when you said you wouldn't shed any tears for
:15:06. > :15:10.her. A 16-year-old girl who had been brainwashed and is now dead. If this
:15:11. > :15:17.had been Mexico which have criminal gangs which behead people on camera,
:15:18. > :15:20.acting similarly to Isis, would you say we wouldn't offer sympathy to
:15:21. > :15:24.these people? We should bring her home and that should be the
:15:25. > :15:31.deterrent. She should be able to give her story. This is a right to
:15:32. > :15:35.reply. I offer condolences and I offer sympathy, but I have to be
:15:36. > :15:40.candid, she was a bright girl and knew what she was getting into. The
:15:41. > :15:45.process of deradicalisation, how effective could that be? There are a
:15:46. > :15:51.number of methods we use for deradicalisation. I'm sure listeners
:15:52. > :15:55.have aware of the Channel process for example, but there are grass
:15:56. > :16:01.roots projects across the country which work with young people nod to
:16:02. > :16:04.not deradicalise them but to stop them getting involved in anything
:16:05. > :16:10.that could take them down this route. We have 130 civic society
:16:11. > :16:14.projects currently running and they've interacted with over 25,000
:16:15. > :16:18.individuals. These projects are very, very effective. We know of
:16:19. > :16:23.individuals, of 150 people who've been stopped from going out to Syria
:16:24. > :16:27.as a result of being involved with some of these projects that we run.
:16:28. > :16:31.It's imperative that we work with these projects and we encourage our
:16:32. > :16:35.young people to speak to us as well. I've spoken to a number of young
:16:36. > :16:40.people who've said, people never talked to us about these issues.
:16:41. > :16:43.That's the frightening thing. We need be open, having these
:16:44. > :16:47.conversations with young people. We need to have grass roots projects
:16:48. > :16:52.that tackle some of these misconceptions, particularly around
:16:53. > :16:55.Islam and the ideology that's influencing these young people to
:16:56. > :16:58.take this drastic step. You've been sending us your texts
:16:59. > :17:01.and tweets on this. Let's hear some of your
:17:02. > :17:08.reactions from Samanthi. The majority of people do agree with
:17:09. > :17:13.Nick. They do think it shouldn't be possible for people to return, or at
:17:14. > :17:16.least to return easily. But there are people who think some people
:17:17. > :17:19.should be able to return on compassionate grounds, and people do
:17:20. > :17:24.make mistakes. Robert says there has to be a way back home. It should
:17:25. > :17:28.require the person to go through extensive security checks but there
:17:29. > :17:34.had to be a way. Gordon says no it shouldn't. How do we know they have
:17:35. > :17:38.had a change of heart? It is not a snap addition to join Isis, so once
:17:39. > :17:43.you've done that coming back shouldn't be an option. Another says
:17:44. > :17:48.Kadiza was a young person, such a waste. Syria is just five hours
:17:49. > :17:53.away, Hewlett should be allowed to come back. Show compassion. Linda
:17:54. > :17:57.says as soon as these people leave the country with the intention of
:17:58. > :18:05.causing death to others, they should be put in prison for life. And this
:18:06. > :18:10.one says people who go with the intent of causing death, they should
:18:11. > :18:19.not be allowed to roam our streets. Thank you Samanthi. When people like
:18:20. > :18:29.that come back here, people don't want them living next door. We can
:18:30. > :18:36.work with the community and if they are finding an issue with it, to
:18:37. > :18:40.reform it. Owen Jones, you are shaking your head It doesn't work.
:18:41. > :18:46.It turns teachers and others into agents of the state. The reason it
:18:47. > :18:54.is counterproductive, one teacher told me of a school of young Muslim
:18:55. > :19:00.girls, they spoke of issues and this was just after Charlie Hebdo, and
:19:01. > :19:04.they didn't bring it up because they felt they would be labelled as
:19:05. > :19:08.extremists and put in prison. People have to be able to freely talk about
:19:09. > :19:13.very uncomfortable opinions and views. My fear is that it makes
:19:14. > :19:16.Muslims feel like the enemy within, a fifth column spied upon. We do
:19:17. > :19:21.need a strategy. I don't think Prevent is it. I do agree that the
:19:22. > :19:26.Prevent strategy of the Government has been counter productive. If
:19:27. > :19:33.anything it has created isolation and more exclusion in the minds of
:19:34. > :19:37.many young people. They feel they are spied on, looked upon badly. The
:19:38. > :19:41.strategy should be inclusive. We need to come together and make this
:19:42. > :19:48.a problem for all of us rather than a Muslim problem, you do with it, we
:19:49. > :19:59.can't deal with it. We need to bring leaders together from all faiths,
:20:00. > :20:04.bring the media together. We need to bring hatred of all natures
:20:05. > :20:08.unacceptable. I think it is important to say that Prevent is
:20:09. > :20:13.about all forms of extremism. About all forms of terrorism. The thing
:20:14. > :20:16.that are being described are not the Prevent strategy. It is a
:20:17. > :20:21.misunderstanding of a lot of people about what Prevent is. As a Muslim I
:20:22. > :20:24.certainly wouldn't be working within Prevent if I felt it was targeting
:20:25. > :20:30.Muslims. One of the most important things that I think we need to do is
:20:31. > :20:33.move away from this language about Prevent targeting Muslims. As Muslim
:20:34. > :20:36.communities we need to take ownership of Prevent and start to
:20:37. > :20:40.understand what the strategy is about. The strategy is very much
:20:41. > :20:44.about safeguarding. It is about protecting communities. It is not
:20:45. > :20:49.about targeting any faith group or religion. Hifsa, thank you. Thank
:20:50. > :20:53.you to all of my panellists as well. We could have gone on for at least
:20:54. > :21:00.another hour. Thank you for your comments. Do keep them coming in.
:21:01. > :21:02.Remembering Bishop Edward Daly, the priest who became
:21:03. > :21:13.His ministry was marked by a total dedication of the people he served.
:21:14. > :21:20.You all know it takes enormous courage to be a peacemaker.
:21:21. > :21:22.Singer Tony Christie has had a string of hit records.
:21:23. > :21:26.But there is one song that he has been defined by and I defy almost
:21:27. > :21:35.We are going to test the crew here. Here I go, please don't leave me
:21:36. > :21:35.hanging... We even got the boom-booms in! I'll
:21:36. > :21:49.do it. Karaoke. I'm up for it. Comedian Peter Kaye took up
:21:50. > :21:51.the anthem and then performed a memorable version with friends
:21:52. > :21:53.which raised a fortune Hardeep Singh Kohli went to meet
:21:54. > :22:05.Tony to talk about that song, Tony, you grew up in South Yorkshire
:22:06. > :22:12.in a mining village. What sort of childhood did you have? Whenever my
:22:13. > :22:19.Irish grandparents came over my dad used to stand me on the chair and he
:22:20. > :22:26.would play the piano and I would sing the hits of the day. He paid me
:22:27. > :22:34.sixpence. It was a good way to make a living. How did Amarillo come
:22:35. > :22:38.about? My manager was in New York and Neil Sedaka, the songwriter,
:22:39. > :22:45.went to his apartment and said I've got a singer in England called Tony
:22:46. > :22:50.Christie, who's had three big histories and we want more material.
:22:51. > :22:55.Neil played a few songs and then played Amarillo. My manager went...
:22:56. > :23:00.That's it! He said, why didn't you play that first? He said, well, it's
:23:01. > :23:06.not finished. He said, what do you mean it's not finished? And he said,
:23:07. > :23:12.I've not got to words to the bit that goes # Sha la la lala la la la.
:23:13. > :23:18.And that's the hit bit. # Sha la la lala la la la. You had this great
:23:19. > :23:25.success in the early '70s and things levelled off a bit for you. I left
:23:26. > :23:31.the UK in 1989, 1990, because nothing was happening here, so I
:23:32. > :23:35.said to my wife, let's sell up. We were living in the Midlands by this
:23:36. > :23:43.time. Let's sell up and go and live in Spain. My son wrack me and said,
:23:44. > :23:47.they want to put out a Best Of album but they said they'll only do it if
:23:48. > :23:54.you come back to the UK to promote it. We got a phone call from Peter
:23:55. > :24:01.Kay's office to say Peter is using Amarillo on Cometic Relief and would
:24:02. > :24:06.I like to be in it. Every less thanly city where I hang my hat... I
:24:07. > :24:10.got the early train in, went in and did my bit on the treadmill, which I
:24:11. > :24:17.thought was a rehearsal. They said, thank you. I said, seniors that it?
:24:18. > :24:25.Yep, thank you. Show me the way to Amarillo, I've been weeping like a
:24:26. > :24:30.willow, crying over Amarillo, and sweet Marie who waits for me. My
:24:31. > :24:35.album was at number three, the middle of a tour, the Friday went it
:24:36. > :24:39.went out on the television, by the Sunday the album had gone to number
:24:40. > :24:44.one and the single, so after 15 years of big completely ignored by
:24:45. > :24:48.my homeland I was suddenly number one in the charts with an album and
:24:49. > :24:52.single. We talked about the good times, but things haven't been plain
:24:53. > :24:58.sailing. There was an incident a few years ago which might have been life
:24:59. > :25:05.changing. I was was in Essen in Germany on a big stadium with other
:25:06. > :25:10.acts and I don't know who was on before me, but they left the big
:25:11. > :25:14.speaker on stage. I ran on stage, hit this big monitor speaker and
:25:15. > :25:21.went flying, landed, I don't know how I landed. I jumped up and
:25:22. > :25:30.carried on as if nothing had happened. Weeks later I got painses
:25:31. > :25:33.in my back and hip. I went for MRI scans and X-rays and he fractured
:25:34. > :25:41.three disks in the bottom of my spine. How did your faith play a
:25:42. > :25:46.part in that period of your life? What you call a lapsed Catholic and
:25:47. > :25:52.I'm more into spirit him now. And that played a part in your healing
:25:53. > :25:56.didn't it? Definitely. One day I was sitting, rocking and crying with
:25:57. > :26:03.pain, the pain killers were not working. My wife said, ask your
:26:04. > :26:08.angels to help you. We know people who are into angels and we believe
:26:09. > :26:16.in angels. You either do or you don't. I sat there and said, angels,
:26:17. > :26:19.please, please help me. Suddenly killers were not working. My wife
:26:20. > :26:21.said, ask your angels to help you. We know people who are into angels
:26:22. > :26:24.and we believe in angels. You either do or you don't. I sat there and
:26:25. > :26:27.said, angels, please, please help me. Suddenly I went into a... I
:26:28. > :26:30.didn't say anything, and my wife said you suddenly got up and I felt
:26:31. > :26:35.something hit me in the back. I went back from an X-ray the next week and
:26:36. > :26:44.they said, it's cured, it's gone back. That was it. My wife and I are
:26:45. > :26:52.very much into angels. # Sha la la lala la la la
:26:53. > :26:57.# Sha la la lala la la la Shall and Marie who waits for me. Do
:26:58. > :27:02.you ever get tired of singing Amarillo? No, it's great. Every DJ I
:27:03. > :27:07.ever meet, the first thing they say is if we are having a bad night and
:27:08. > :27:17.nothing is happening, if we put Amarillo on, the floor is full. It's
:27:18. > :27:26.one of those iconic songs. ALL: # Sha la la lala la la la
:27:27. > :27:30.And Marie who waits for me. I apologise now because that song will
:27:31. > :27:32.be in your head for the rest of the day.
:27:33. > :27:47.It's rare that a religious leader would be described as a "walking
:27:48. > :27:52.But both of those were used this week to describe Northern Ireland's
:27:53. > :27:55.Bishop Edward Daly, who has died at the age of 82.
:27:56. > :27:58.He lived a full life dominated by one defining image, which some
:27:59. > :28:14.More than 1,000 people turned out for Bishop Daly's funeral on
:28:15. > :28:18.Thursday at St Eugene's Cathedral in Derry, where he was praised as a
:28:19. > :28:25.peacemaker. His ministry was marked by a total dedication to the people
:28:26. > :28:30.that he served. His moral courage was evident in his passionate
:28:31. > :28:34.struggle against violence and injustice from all quarters. Bishop
:28:35. > :28:44.Daly will be forever remembered as the piste who awayed the bloodied
:28:45. > :28:51.handkerchief to escort people carrying a dying teenager in 1972.
:28:52. > :28:57.It is one of the enduring images of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. 13
:28:58. > :29:03.people died that day after British troops opened fire on a civil rights
:29:04. > :29:10.march. March. It became then as Bloody Sunday. 38 years later after
:29:11. > :29:18.an exhaustive inquiry David Cameron described the soldiers' actions as
:29:19. > :29:24.unjustified and unjustifiable, song that Father daily had no doubt about
:29:25. > :29:26.at the time. I was him shot. He was a young boy, about 15.
:29:27. > :29:31.REPORTER: He didn't have a weapon? No, he had nothing. He was just a
:29:32. > :29:38.young boy about 5. He was running. I was running too. Father daily was
:29:39. > :29:42.consecrated Bishop of Derry two years later and brought communities
:29:43. > :29:44.together in Northern Ireland, condemning violence and helping the
:29:45. > :29:48.peace process. So, Bishop Daly clearly made
:29:49. > :29:50.an impact during his life. But how many religious leaders today
:29:51. > :29:53.will be judged to have Do modern religious leaders
:29:54. > :29:56.have any influence? Joining the panel now
:29:57. > :29:59.is Vimalasara Mason-John, an author and chair
:30:00. > :30:03.of the Vancouver Buddhist Centre. And a person who knew Bishop Daly
:30:04. > :30:17.well, journalist Henry McDonald also Good morning. Henry, you interviewed
:30:18. > :30:23.Bishop Daly many times. What type of a man was he? He was a man who was
:30:24. > :30:27.one of the people. A great communicator. Before he was
:30:28. > :30:31.appointed Bishop he was religious affairs correspondent for RTE in the
:30:32. > :30:37.mid 1970s, so she was a journalist as well. He knew about the power of
:30:38. > :30:40.imagery. We saw the iconic image in Derry, 1972. He knew the importance
:30:41. > :30:45.of media and getting the message across. Across. His message was the
:30:46. > :30:46.only way to some of the situation in Northern Ireland is through peaceful
:30:47. > :31:01.politics. In a sense, he succeeded. We showed that moment of him waving
:31:02. > :31:03.that bloodied handkerchief, and the realisation of what he was about as
:31:04. > :31:10.a man. What else defied his career? Moral
:31:11. > :31:15.consistency describes him. He was bitterly critical of state
:31:16. > :31:21.injustices, the heavy handedness of the state security forces. Equally
:31:22. > :31:30.of the IRA campaign, he did not allow IRA funerals in churches with
:31:31. > :31:34.political stunts. He had a consistent line the only
:31:35. > :31:39.way to solve the situation was by people coming together and violence
:31:40. > :31:44.was wrong, immoral and futile and counter-productive. That is what
:31:45. > :31:49.marks his life and work. And he was a great communicator with the
:31:50. > :31:54.people. We talk about Bishop Edward Daly
:31:55. > :31:59.with reverence. Many with fondness. Is there a place for a religious
:32:00. > :32:04.leader to have the same influence? I believe religious leaders should
:32:05. > :32:07.be peacemakers, it takes huge courage.
:32:08. > :32:11.They should be healers of our communities, especially the wrist
:32:12. > :32:16.prevalent in our modern world. Religious leaders should be unified
:32:17. > :32:21.in our divisive world. They should play a role in being moderators.
:32:22. > :32:28.Unfortunately it is not happening enough, because the pressure on them
:32:29. > :32:30.is intense. Material pressure, expectations, 24-hour news does not
:32:31. > :32:34.help. Religious leaders should be given
:32:35. > :32:41.that autonomy, strength and courage to continue. I am an arm, I am
:32:42. > :32:47.supposed to have that evidence, I wish I did.
:32:48. > :32:52.When my accommodation say I is buy them for tomorrow, and thanked me
:32:53. > :32:58.for my sermons. Religion plays a huge role,
:32:59. > :33:02.religious leaders should be agents of that religion, true peacemakers.
:33:03. > :33:08.They are not do enough because some do not even practice what they
:33:09. > :33:12.preach. If we are consistent with our teachings, genuine and honest,
:33:13. > :33:16.we would truly be respected as peacemakers.
:33:17. > :33:19.Is there anyone you could identify today in a similar vein to Bishop
:33:20. > :33:26.Daly? Most definitely the Dalai llama. If
:33:27. > :33:36.you look at the trajectory of his life, in the 1950s, he becomes the
:33:37. > :33:41.leader of Tibet and then exiled in 1959.
:33:42. > :33:45.Nobody knows about Tibet. In 1987, he goes to the human rights
:33:46. > :33:51.commission and gives his 5-point peace plan. It is there were I
:33:52. > :33:55.believe he won the heart of the world.
:33:56. > :34:03.He brought the situation of Tibet to the world, and stated at the core of
:34:04. > :34:08.his plan was a Hindu word for the state of peace and nonviolence.
:34:09. > :34:12.You are nodding? I would also use the Pope, very influential,
:34:13. > :34:16.mobilising thousands of people to take environmental action. It is not
:34:17. > :34:21.just about the popular names. We should look at grassroots where
:34:22. > :34:29.there are so many leaders making a difference, challenging drug
:34:30. > :34:32.addiction, in India helping over sanitation. They are playing a key
:34:33. > :34:36.role, they are inspiring and guiding.
:34:37. > :34:43.Our politicians having more of an influence, should they?
:34:44. > :34:49.I believe elected politicians should take the lead when it comes to
:34:50. > :34:54.political debate within the context of Parliament. As a secularist, I
:34:55. > :34:58.don't believe clerics have the automatic right to sit in the House
:34:59. > :35:01.of Lords, we are the only country in the world outside of Iran put that
:35:02. > :35:10.to happen. As a believer with respect the
:35:11. > :35:19.people, I look at Martin Luther King. And Caldera, who stood up
:35:20. > :35:24.against injustice. Equally, socialism, I see myself as
:35:25. > :35:31.a socialist, in Britain, religious leaders have a role in building the
:35:32. > :35:38.left, Methodism. For me, I believe we should separate church and state,
:35:39. > :35:42.that is good for religion and the state as well. Equally, religious
:35:43. > :35:47.leaders should speak out not least about the injustices that define
:35:48. > :35:50.society, and to support peace, because they are influential and
:35:51. > :35:54.should use that for good. Is there room for a new religious
:35:55. > :36:05.leader? In Dublin, the Archbishop has been
:36:06. > :36:12.forthright. He was sent to clear up the mess caused by the clerical sex
:36:13. > :36:17.abuse in church when institutions. He has built a lot of bridges with
:36:18. > :36:23.victims's organisations. A good example of someone prepared to
:36:24. > :36:30.criticise his own hierarchy for mishandling that all engulfing
:36:31. > :36:33.scandal that shadowed the catholic church's authority.
:36:34. > :36:41.In Belfast, the Unitarian minister Reverend Chris Hudson who is the
:36:42. > :36:47.unofficial Pasteur to the gay community, a much marginalised
:36:48. > :36:52.community. He holds a weekly service for the gay community in South
:36:53. > :36:55.Belfast. There are small and big examples.
:36:56. > :37:01.I don't think religious leaders are being courageous enough, they are
:37:02. > :37:05.being drowned. Take for example every 20 seconds a child dies
:37:06. > :37:11.because of lack of food. Where are the religious leaders saying enough
:37:12. > :37:19.against poverty. In Syria where thousands are being killed. Those
:37:20. > :37:25.being killed in Burma, Palestine, occupational wars. Religious leaders
:37:26. > :37:31.need to come out and become like Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, and say
:37:32. > :37:36.enough is enough, we want equality for all, freedom, rule of law, total
:37:37. > :37:40.freedom of humanity. Many are, they are just not as
:37:41. > :37:44.publicised. The religious leadership is involved
:37:45. > :37:50.at the global strategic level. With the World Bank on discussions on
:37:51. > :37:56.poverty reduction, religious leaders are at the table. And in Unicef.
:37:57. > :38:03.Look at grassroots level. Every 20 seconds a child dies.
:38:04. > :38:07.You are nodding, are they having the impact, to have influence?
:38:08. > :38:14.The biggest impact religious leaders can have is to live their practice
:38:15. > :38:19.that is the biggest impact, to radiate compassion, wisdom.
:38:20. > :38:30.I do want to mention, we heard of Martin Luther King, I want to
:38:31. > :38:37.mention Doctor Mbegka. He had one of the biggest impact on the world, one
:38:38. > :38:50.of the largest ever conversions in one day to Buddhism. That was
:38:51. > :38:55.because he realised all -- he needed a religion to emancipate the mind.
:38:56. > :39:02.He had an impact economic league, and still has. We are addressing how
:39:03. > :39:10.religious leaders can have an impact today, how does he work for you?
:39:11. > :39:16.How does it work for me today? Engaged Buddhism. One of the things
:39:17. > :39:19.I actually do is look at how the Buddhist teachings and mindfulness
:39:20. > :39:26.teachings can be used to overcome addiction. We are living in a world
:39:27. > :39:33.with a lot of hate. We are remembering Bishop Daly now.
:39:34. > :39:40.It is little drops in the ocean making a big impact, just like time
:39:41. > :39:45.and spots make a big fire. Different religious leaders are pouring into
:39:46. > :39:46.tiny drops making a big impact into society.
:39:47. > :39:48.Viewers have been getting in touch. Let's hear some of your
:39:49. > :40:02.reactions from Samanthi. Most people highlighting the lack of
:40:03. > :40:10.interest in religion. Helen says this, de Villiers leaders have
:40:11. > :40:26.influence, only as far as they have integrity. And David says this.
:40:27. > :40:32.But tests says this, religious leeches don't have a big influence
:40:33. > :40:37.these days but could be great at bringing real attention to social
:40:38. > :40:43.problems. Overall, no, but perhaps there is an
:40:44. > :40:49.opportunity. Lots of you were nodding at various
:40:50. > :40:56.points, religion is over in the UK? We are one of the least religious
:40:57. > :41:00.people in the Western world, less than one out of seven attends a
:41:01. > :41:06.religious service. Obviously religious leaders will have far less
:41:07. > :41:09.sway. It is not like anyone is calling for a bar on religious
:41:10. > :41:14.leaders speaking out, I would like far more people to speak out about
:41:15. > :41:18.injustice. In America, you get religious leaders who have a lot to
:41:19. > :41:24.say about gays and guns but not poverty and injustice. Everyone
:41:25. > :41:27.should unite to take on the issues of injustice.
:41:28. > :41:32.I wonder if the issues need to be big and substantial, in the same way
:41:33. > :41:36.we saw Bishop Daly waving that handkerchief, it was a moment that
:41:37. > :41:41.captured the hearts of people. Archbishop well be talking about
:41:42. > :41:47.payday loans. Does it need to be surrounded by circumstance to create
:41:48. > :41:55.a big, influential name? It is not about name but impact,
:41:56. > :42:00.integrity. Honestly. Religion, religious leaders are too shy. They
:42:01. > :42:04.feel they have been banished. I stood for a Parliamentary seat in
:42:05. > :42:12.2010. Even though I am an arm, people asked. I said I'm not going
:42:13. > :42:23.to impose religious values. But I have a role to play in this world --
:42:24. > :42:29.and Imam. One of the most important thing is I believe people miss is
:42:30. > :42:31.poverty is the biggest crime we see happening and religious leaders must
:42:32. > :42:37.do something. It is wonderful religious leaders
:42:38. > :42:41.come together in a world of interfaith to be one voice and take
:42:42. > :42:48.action together. I want to see more women in religious leadership.
:42:49. > :42:51.That will be on another week. Thanks you very much.
:42:52. > :42:54.Now, let's move on to our final topic for today - money.
:42:55. > :42:59.The Premier League started this weekend and a lot of the talk
:43:00. > :43:07.in the build-up to the big kick-off was about one man.
:43:08. > :43:12.Yes - he's back, along with that promo video.
:43:13. > :43:14.Paul Pogba, who used to play for Manchester United, has returned
:43:15. > :43:19.to Old Trafford for a world record fee of ?89 million.
:43:20. > :43:22.With a salary of reportedly more than ?200,000 a week to go along
:43:23. > :43:27.But has football finally gone over the top?
:43:28. > :43:37.Samanthi's been out to get some views in the North East of England.
:43:38. > :43:43.I am in Newcastle, a football loving city where they once broke a world
:43:44. > :43:49.record by signing Alan Shearer ?15 million. A lot of money then but it
:43:50. > :43:53.may seem small change today. Seaham Red Star on training, let us
:43:54. > :43:56.see what they think of the millions being shelled out in league
:43:57. > :44:01.football. It went crazy the last couple of
:44:02. > :44:06.years in the Premiership. That is football, spend, spend,
:44:07. > :44:11.spend. Sponsorship, it is revenue for the
:44:12. > :44:14.club. Are they getting greedy?
:44:15. > :44:22.They are entitled, the clubs are saying yes, why not?
:44:23. > :44:25.All the best of them, it is a short career.
:44:26. > :44:33.Does it affect your enjoyment as a spectator? How much is a footballer
:44:34. > :44:39.worth being paid? ?200,000 a week? About 10%.
:44:40. > :44:48.If you whisper to me how much you earn a year I will tell you how long
:44:49. > :45:00.it will take you to earn what Paul Pogba earns 2,166 years. 100 years?
:45:01. > :45:04.1,529 years. When you say it like that, money is ridiculous in
:45:05. > :45:09.football. 2,000 years. I think the clubs are overpricing people out of
:45:10. > :45:14.the game now. When I was a young lad, my father took me to the games
:45:15. > :45:23.and it was quite reasonable. To go to a match day now it is ?50 for a
:45:24. > :45:27.ticket. A couple of drinks and it is aed ?100 day. Massively overpriced.
:45:28. > :45:28.Samanthi tackling players from Seaham Red Star.
:45:29. > :45:31.Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger says it's "completely crazy" to pay
:45:32. > :45:33.out the sort of money Pogba has commanded.
:45:34. > :45:35.But others believe it's the market rate and the transfer will attract
:45:36. > :45:44.At the Games in Brazil, there's a different side of sport
:45:45. > :45:49.on show as Britain's Olympians battle for gold.
:45:50. > :45:52.So, we're asking, does football promote greed?
:45:53. > :45:59.Joining the panel is Barry Horne, ex professional footballer
:46:00. > :46:04.And former Chairman of the Professional
:46:05. > :46:08.And re-joining the panel is Nick Ferrari.
:46:09. > :46:09.Can you explain how somebody deserves
:46:10. > :46:20.How is that justified? You can justify it in several ways really.
:46:21. > :46:24.First of all it is the footballers that generate the huge income that
:46:25. > :46:29.goes into the game. Secondly, because of the footballers the clubs
:46:30. > :46:37.can afford it. Knowing is suffering because they're earning this money.
:46:38. > :46:41.Capitalist society, merit oxy, the best players in the best clubs make
:46:42. > :46:46.the best money. Clubs are businesses. They want to make money
:46:47. > :46:55.and grow their brand. To do any of those things you need to best
:46:56. > :46:58.players. But ?89 million? ?200,000. These are figures that people can't
:46:59. > :47:03.comprehend. Paul Pogba is in demand across the world. That's the going
:47:04. > :47:11.rate. Paul Pogba is not to blame for that. That's the going rate. As you
:47:12. > :47:14.come down the tables, I'm a director at Wrexham Football Club. The
:47:15. > :47:19.issues, the problems are all the same. It is just the numbers that
:47:20. > :47:24.change. At the very top they are generating income. Nobody baulks if
:47:25. > :47:30.a movie star is paid ?80 million to make a film or ?100 million to make
:47:31. > :47:36.a film. It's the same thing. Ajmal? I would, I think ?30,000 a day for a
:47:37. > :47:41.footballer. Why would any human being need that amount of money? To
:47:42. > :47:47.do what, to eat, buy a house or car? You would run out of things to do
:47:48. > :47:51.with it. There's a huge amount of poverty in the world.
:47:52. > :47:56.Disproportionate distribution of wealth in the world. It sounds like
:47:57. > :48:03.a mantra for me. I've been to Africa. I picked up a child the
:48:04. > :48:09.other day in Sudan, where the child weighed less than my laptop Andrea
:48:10. > :48:18.that child was five years old, dying of malnutrition. When we have abject
:48:19. > :48:25.poverty in the world and grotesque earn, this causes resentment and
:48:26. > :48:29.agreed. Wenger said this is crazy, this amount of money. I don't think
:48:30. > :48:35.you can control the money. That's dangerous. Both contributors are
:48:36. > :48:39.right. You can't blame Pogba. A team like Manchester United has so many
:48:40. > :48:44.brands, so many other companies affiliated with them. They even have
:48:45. > :48:48.a deal with an Asian motorbike company, and their own wines. He is
:48:49. > :48:51.the hottest of the hot at the moment in football, Pogba, so they will
:48:52. > :48:58.make their money back. It is horrific, the story you just told,
:48:59. > :49:07.but how would Manchester United not buying Pogba make any difference to
:49:08. > :49:13.that child this Sudan. I'm saying if we have a culture not of greed but
:49:14. > :49:18.caring and sharing, a culture of not wanting all for myself but to
:49:19. > :49:24.share... Do you blame football? I'm not blaming anybody. Not Pogba but
:49:25. > :49:29.football. I'm saying football or any other has become the new religion of
:49:30. > :49:34.the world. Football is the religion of the religionless masses of the
:49:35. > :49:38.world. That's a worrying thing. Look at the religious rituals in
:49:39. > :49:41.football. People like to come together, they have rituals, they
:49:42. > :49:48.sing. This is a replacement for religion. For me as a religious
:49:49. > :49:53.leader that's a problem, but that's not the discussion today.
:49:54. > :49:59.Disproportionality cause as problem. Are you willing to share it? There
:50:00. > :50:03.is disproportionality not just the football. There's disproportionate
:50:04. > :50:07.wealth across society. If you want to focus on football, if you are
:50:08. > :50:11.going to make it compulsory that so much money goes to charity or not to
:50:12. > :50:18.football, you've got to do that across the world. Football so global
:50:19. > :50:28.game, so you have to get it in Barcelona... Football is a lucrative
:50:29. > :50:32.business but to me it is beautiful. We mustn't have that disconnect. It
:50:33. > :50:35.is people coming from diverse backgrounds supporting each other
:50:36. > :50:40.with common goals. There's a lot to learn from that. When we see
:50:41. > :50:47.disproportionate figures, it takes away the fan base who pay enormous
:50:48. > :50:52.prices, the kit, just for loyalty. It is a free market. People say
:50:53. > :50:56.tickets are overpriced. A lot of the tickets are affordable. The grounds
:50:57. > :51:06.are full. That tells you that it is not too expensive. Yes the top end
:51:07. > :51:13.tickets at Chelsea and Arsenal. My club Everton just sold 300,000
:51:14. > :51:19.tickets. That's record. Stoke City, record tickets. The grounds are
:51:20. > :51:23.full. Your point about integration and being a cause for good doesn't
:51:24. > :51:27.get mentioned. I don't want to lose that. It is so important. You are
:51:28. > :51:31.talking about the exposure of football and footballers get, I
:51:32. > :51:35.picked up a tabloid this morning, 25 pageness to Premier League. 10 on
:51:36. > :51:40.the English Football League. Two on cricket. Two on racing and a quarter
:51:41. > :51:45.on rugby league. That tells you how big football is. Your point about it
:51:46. > :51:52.being the religion, yes, I'm with that. And with that comes inevitably
:51:53. > :51:58.criticism, I feel. I think a lot of it is unjustified. Sit right there
:51:59. > :52:02.are two prices if you are selling a player, the English price, inflated,
:52:03. > :52:08.because foreign teams know there is so much money, and then a regular
:52:09. > :52:15.price. If that's true, that's a worry. Yes, but it used to be Italy.
:52:16. > :52:24.Not many English players went to Italy. Italy used to be the richest
:52:25. > :52:32.league. Richard Scudamore, Sky, they have done an amazing job. So if I'm
:52:33. > :52:39.selling a player, I know I can rip an English team off. Rip off or just
:52:40. > :52:40.get a better deal. This conversation, rip-off, agreed,
:52:41. > :52:44.disproportionality. I'm getting very worried. When we were introducing
:52:45. > :52:48.this subject we spoke about the Olympics. Barry, I want to ask you
:52:49. > :52:56.this, we've been passionate about the Olympics, as we should be, and
:52:57. > :53:00.watching our great Team GB hopes getting gold and silverev day, they
:53:01. > :53:04.are not during it for the money. That's what some people in the
:53:05. > :53:09.public see footballers doing it for, as figures to aspire to, and why
:53:10. > :53:14.should she appear to the money whennev got Olympic examples who
:53:15. > :53:20.aren't doing it just for the money. Can we take two separate questions?
:53:21. > :53:24.Yes. Another player has gone to Manchester United this summer.
:53:25. > :53:30.Ibrahimovic. He doesn't need the money. He has more than enough
:53:31. > :53:36.money. He is getting paid, fine. You can't blame him for that. He is
:53:37. > :53:41.proving he is the best, just as the Olympians do. The fact that
:53:42. > :53:46.footballers are able to generate ?5.1 billion of broadcasting revenue
:53:47. > :53:53.means they get paid well. It is no, they are no less determined or
:53:54. > :53:59.committed or no less determined to win, to be fit, to be the best they
:54:00. > :54:03.can to win trophies. The Olympians, we are all inspired, all in awe of
:54:04. > :54:09.them, but a lot of them get paid very handsomely. With new
:54:10. > :54:11.sponsorship deals as well, and advertising deals.
:54:12. > :54:15.Samanthi, tell us what our viewers are saying?
:54:16. > :54:21.Some people are saying the spend isn't morally justifiable but that's
:54:22. > :54:27.the nature of popular sport, and saying while there is an audience
:54:28. > :54:32.willing to pay for ticket prices and TV subscriptions, the clubs will do
:54:33. > :54:36.what they can to secure talent. David says the market is distorted
:54:37. > :54:42.by TV money but it is nonsense to suggest that moral are in question
:54:43. > :54:46.here. Alan says no, the spend is not morally justifiable but if people
:54:47. > :54:50.are willing to pay inflated prices to watch them, the clubs will take
:54:51. > :54:54.it from them. A text here says football clubs in the UK don't spend
:54:55. > :54:58.enough on home-grown players. That's why we don't do well in Europe and
:54:59. > :55:04.the World Cup. Gordon says football used to be a working class game, but
:55:05. > :55:08.the average worker can't afford tickets for themselves and their
:55:09. > :55:09.families because of the price of players.
:55:10. > :55:22.Morality came out there. I think having more money doesn't guarantee
:55:23. > :55:31.performance. As we've seen in the Iceland match. Barry? The hunger and
:55:32. > :55:39.the thirst to win. Hunger and the first to win. Hunger and the thirst
:55:40. > :55:44.the win equals in the world today a lot of greed and poverty. Our
:55:45. > :55:49.children, are they aspiring to become footballers and famous or to
:55:50. > :55:54.use their brain and become somebody? Maybe then this is the problem, the
:55:55. > :56:00.image of football ers. Nick, you said these guys want to win. And
:56:01. > :56:06.that message perhaps doesn't come across and is overshadowed by the
:56:07. > :56:12.money. I thought I covered that by saying Ibrahimovic who is paid
:56:13. > :56:16.?200,000 a week. He has gone there to prove he is the best player in
:56:17. > :56:23.the world. To win trophies. He is 34. He is physically, as are all
:56:24. > :56:27.footballers and athletes, poverty is not caused by football. I'm sorry.
:56:28. > :56:33.I'm not seeing that. Thank you so much. It's been an enlightening
:56:34. > :56:35.discussion. That's just about all
:56:36. > :56:36.from us for today. Many thanks to all our guests
:56:37. > :56:39.and to you for taking part. We've all been rejoicing in our
:56:40. > :56:48.triumphs in Rio. Mo Farah winning gold, and Jessica
:56:49. > :56:49.Ennis hill picking up silver this the heptathlon.
:56:50. > :56:51.It's brought back magic memories for a group of volunteers
:56:52. > :56:54.They've kept that London spirit alive - by singing.
:56:55. > :56:57.And here is the Game Makers Choir with their version of Snow Patrol's
:56:58. > :57:21.# You've been the only thing that's right
:57:22. > :58:46.# I understand why you can't raise your voice to say