:00:08. > :00:09.Welcome to a new series of Sunday Morning Live.
:00:10. > :00:14.On today's programme: As investigations and recriminations
:00:15. > :00:16.continue into the London tower block fire,
:00:17. > :00:18.local resident, singer and broadcaster Cerys Matthews
:00:19. > :00:24.gives us a personal view of the effect on her community.
:00:25. > :00:30.We are very close. We can see the tower. It is our neighbour.
:00:31. > :00:33.Also on the show: In memory of Jo Cox.
:00:34. > :00:35.This weekend more than 100,000 people
:00:36. > :00:37.across the UK are joining in the Great Get Together.
:00:38. > :00:40.Jo's sister Kim tells us what her family are hoping to achieve.
:00:41. > :00:50.One of the things that drives us all, I think, is what Jo wanted us
:00:51. > :00:52.to do and try for something positive to come out what happens is right up
:00:53. > :00:55.there as what she would want. Tim Farron quits because he can't
:00:56. > :00:58.reconcile his Christian faith We ask can you mix
:00:59. > :01:01.politics with religion? And let me introduce
:01:02. > :01:04.you to another new face like me to Sunday Morning Live -
:01:05. > :01:06.Emma Barnett. Throughout today's programme
:01:07. > :01:11.we want to hear your views on all of our topics and also how
:01:12. > :01:14.you are celebrating the Great Get Together
:01:15. > :01:16.in memory of Jo Cox. You can contact us and share photos
:01:17. > :01:18.through Facebook and Twitter. Don't forget to use
:01:19. > :01:22.the hashtag #bbcsml. Or text SML followed
:01:23. > :01:24.by your message to 60011. Texts are charged at your
:01:25. > :01:26.standard message rate. Email us at
:01:27. > :01:30.sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk. However you choose to get in touch,
:01:31. > :01:33.please don't forget to include your name so I can get you involved
:01:34. > :01:38.in our discussions. And we'll have this inspiring story
:01:39. > :01:41.for you that you may We'll be meeting Ben Carpenter,
:01:42. > :01:44.a single man who has adopted four children,
:01:45. > :01:53.all with special needs. People say the children are very
:01:54. > :01:55.lucky to have you but I don't see it like that. I am very lucky to have
:01:56. > :02:05.the children. The dreadful fire at Grenfell Tower
:02:06. > :02:10.has shocked us all. Now the grief of the residents
:02:11. > :02:12.has turned to anger as they demand answers to how
:02:13. > :02:15.the disaster happened. Trauma has gripped the area
:02:16. > :02:18.in West London, while the community has rallied in support
:02:19. > :02:20.of those affected. We asked one local resident,
:02:21. > :02:23.singer and broadcaster Cerys Matthews, to give her
:02:24. > :02:40.impressions of how it's We live in what is known as Notting
:02:41. > :02:44.Dale, neighbour to the more famous and affluent Notting Hill, and we
:02:45. > :02:47.live very close. We can see the tower, our neighbour. What I
:02:48. > :02:50.remember of the night was the helicopter noise was relentless.
:02:51. > :02:54.There was screaming and banging and the sounds of police shouting. We
:02:55. > :03:00.realised something really bad was happening. So I rushed to the back
:03:01. > :03:08.windows, and that is where we saw the most horrific sight. The most
:03:09. > :03:16.traumatising, desperate site that you can imagine. No one here can
:03:17. > :03:18.forget that terrible night. I met fellow locals and parents Yasmina
:03:19. > :03:30.Siadatan you to talk about that and where we go from here. -- Yaz and
:03:31. > :03:35.Tanya. It is hard because when you start processing it, you know there
:03:36. > :03:39.are families that have been hit and people that we don't know have lost
:03:40. > :03:46.everything. There is a feeling of hopelessness. I find it quite hard
:03:47. > :03:54.to believe that we can be here, in a wonderful city like London, in 2017,
:03:55. > :04:01.and things have got so bad that the city behind us didn't have adequate
:04:02. > :04:04.fire regulations in place. When I am hearing how much things have been
:04:05. > :04:08.mentioned in the past, that angers me, to know that people have been
:04:09. > :04:14.trying for so long to get their voice heard. We have had the most
:04:15. > :04:18.beautiful blue skies as a backdrop to something that is horrific.
:04:19. > :04:23.Anyone who has ever come to my house knows the grand belltower because it
:04:24. > :04:31.stands in the skyline. -- the Grenfell Tower. I will never be able
:04:32. > :04:35.to look out of the window in the same way again. I am beginning to
:04:36. > :04:39.wonder how we are going to move forward from here. It is all in the
:04:40. > :04:45.papers. In a couple of weeks it will not be such big headlines. We have
:04:46. > :04:49.got to keep it up there for those victims and for the people that are
:04:50. > :04:53.homeless. We have got to make sure that we are fighting for them and
:04:54. > :04:58.that their voices are kept heard, because I don't see it being done by
:04:59. > :05:06.anyone else. You were recently voted in as a school governor. Do you know
:05:07. > :05:09.what kind of action the deputy head took for the children? The deputy
:05:10. > :05:13.head was very proactive and saying that the children were coming to her
:05:14. > :05:17.and saying that they wanted to do something, anything. So the next day
:05:18. > :05:21.she said we will have a fundraising event. It is traumatising for
:05:22. > :05:28.children that young to be able to see something that is so difficult
:05:29. > :05:31.even for us to comprehend. It was an inferno in front of our eyes. It is
:05:32. > :05:38.difficult to explain to the children. From the school we have
:05:39. > :05:42.had a two page leaflet trying to help the parents help the children
:05:43. > :05:44.understand. You can't sugar-coat it for them when it is on their
:05:45. > :05:49.doorstep. It is not like something you can see our menus and you can
:05:50. > :05:57.sleep over it. We walk past it on the way to school every day and they
:05:58. > :06:00.see the posters. We have seen a bighearted community pulling
:06:01. > :06:03.together over the last few days. What we need to do as the population
:06:04. > :06:08.is to make sure that this story stays alive in tribute to those
:06:09. > :06:13.affected. Make sure the regulations get put into place. An independent
:06:14. > :06:17.inquiry gets opened. And we cannot allow the system to fail the people
:06:18. > :06:24.of the UK in this catastrophic way ever, ever again.
:06:25. > :06:25.Cerys Matthews with her personal report
:06:26. > :06:33.The Prime Minister has said the initial support on the ground after
:06:34. > :06:34.the fire was not good enough but has announced a ?5 million emergency
:06:35. > :06:36.fund. Reverend Michael Long,
:06:37. > :06:40.the minister in charge one of the many faith communities
:06:41. > :06:54.in the area which have been handling Cerys touched on it in her piece,
:06:55. > :06:58.the anger. It must have been a difficult week for you. Have you
:06:59. > :07:01.sensed the anger because you have been there every day? Yes, the anger
:07:02. > :07:05.has different dimensions. The anger about how the fire could be allowed
:07:06. > :07:09.to happen, the anger at response to the tragedy on the ground, and
:07:10. > :07:13.certainly we have seen that outside the building, people talking about
:07:14. > :07:16.it. Many of our volunteers have expressed that as well. You talk
:07:17. > :07:21.about the volunteers. There has been an amazing grassroots movement. Have
:07:22. > :07:24.you felt overwhelmed? Have people been overwhelmed by the amount of
:07:25. > :07:28.things that have been given and there is no way to organise it?
:07:29. > :07:32.Indeed. There are many lessons to be learned. We have been overwhelmed
:07:33. > :07:36.physically and emotionally. People walking around the area, people are
:07:37. > :07:40.shattered. They haven't slept, hardly eaten, they are utterly
:07:41. > :07:44.drained at the moment. I am sure people are talking to you about the
:07:45. > :07:50.bigger questions and faith. Does it affect your face when you see
:07:51. > :07:54.something so terrible? It affects me to be part of such a traumatic
:07:55. > :07:57.community event, even though many others, the emergency services,
:07:58. > :08:02.other faith communities, have been so involved and more directly
:08:03. > :08:08.involved in actually supporting victims of this appalling disaster.
:08:09. > :08:19.In terms of faith, it chokes me. It doesn't mean I lose my faith. -- it
:08:20. > :08:26.shakes me. We heard a lot about the children in that piece. What can we
:08:27. > :08:31.do for the healing process the children and adults as a faith
:08:32. > :08:35.group? I think there will be a role for many years in the local
:08:36. > :08:40.community. Our children are looking out on a building they have seen and
:08:41. > :08:50.they have seen scenes that nobody should ever witness. The faith
:08:51. > :08:55.communities, partly because Degen -- partly the togetherness. What has
:08:56. > :08:59.been very difficult for me has been walking away from the sight and
:09:00. > :09:02.hearing the noise and the laughter on Portobello road, but that has got
:09:03. > :09:06.to continue as well. That is going to be part of it as well. There will
:09:07. > :09:18.be different ways in which the community needs to draw together and
:09:19. > :09:22.have in the end not only peace but also joined in the people that they
:09:23. > :09:34.are. -- but also joy. Thank you. Still to come on Sunday
:09:35. > :09:36.Morning Live: Parents' legal battle with doctors
:09:37. > :09:38.over their child's future. This weekend has been
:09:39. > :09:40.one of celebration and togetherness as thousands of people have gathered
:09:41. > :09:43.all around the UK to take part It's all in memory of Jo Cox,
:09:44. > :09:51.the MP murdered a year ago this week The aim is to build on Jo's
:09:52. > :09:56.view that there's more I've been talking to Jo's
:09:57. > :10:02.sister Kim Leadbeater, who still has vivid memories
:10:03. > :10:15.of the day she lost her One year on, if I can ask, when you
:10:16. > :10:22.think back to that day, what comes to mind? Jo's husband Brendan rang
:10:23. > :10:27.me and said that Jo has been attacked. Don't panic. You just need
:10:28. > :10:30.to go to the hospital. I was like, fine. What is really bizarre is that
:10:31. > :10:36.I knew straightaway that it wasn't good. I don't know if that is the
:10:37. > :10:41.sister think will stop I don't know. I knew straightaway and we got to
:10:42. > :10:47.the hospital and we found out my worst fears but my instinctive fears
:10:48. > :10:54.were correct. The following days are all a blur. I don't have many clear
:10:55. > :11:01.memories. I think some of that has been a way of coping. Things were
:11:02. > :11:05.being filed and shut away. I think there is a lot of that that I still
:11:06. > :11:10.haven't dealt with and I will need to deal with at some point. 48 hours
:11:11. > :11:14.later you did this speech which I have re-watched and watched and I
:11:15. > :11:19.cannot imagine how you managed to do that. Your mum and dad were behind
:11:20. > :11:24.you. I am going to speak formally but I want to start by saying thank
:11:25. > :11:28.you. This is unbelievable, unbelievable. Do you remember
:11:29. > :11:32.standing there? Not really. I remember there being lots and lots
:11:33. > :11:41.of cameras and shaking. Being very nervous. But knowing that I had to
:11:42. > :11:45.do it, I had to do it for Jo and our family to say thank you. Over the
:11:46. > :11:49.past 48 hours, people have not been silent. They have been vocal and
:11:50. > :11:53.passionate and they have spoken from the heart with genuine emotion and
:11:54. > :12:02.no hidden agendas. Jo would have loved it. Losing Jo was very
:12:03. > :12:07.personal for us, but losing what Jo stood for resonated with so many
:12:08. > :12:11.people, locally, nationally, internationally. There are some
:12:12. > :12:16.things in life you should never have to do. Last night I had to go and
:12:17. > :12:21.identify my sister's body. One of the things that you said was that
:12:22. > :12:25.you had to identify her body. Somebody had to do it. Brendan
:12:26. > :12:32.wasn't here. Nor did I want him to have to do it. But to be honest,
:12:33. > :12:37.that memory is not a bad memory for me because Jo was beautiful and very
:12:38. > :12:43.peaceful. I think it must be so much harder for the witnesses who saw the
:12:44. > :12:49.attack. On the streets. A tiny little village, a lovely market
:12:50. > :12:55.town. Do you go past there? Yes, I do, and I am determined that I will
:12:56. > :13:00.do and I will continue to. What was it like growing up together? We had
:13:01. > :13:05.a great childhood. We did everything together. Brownies. BMX bikes. I
:13:06. > :13:11.think a lot of Jo's values, the values that I share, come from our
:13:12. > :13:16.parents. We were not brought up to see race, age, colour, creed,
:13:17. > :13:20.sexuality, gender. We were just brought up to see people. Where does
:13:21. > :13:25.that come from? Those are values that people often associate with a
:13:26. > :13:32.form of face. We did go to church a bit when we were younger but I don't
:13:33. > :13:36.follow a particular religion. I have faith, but in people, and without
:13:37. > :13:41.putting a particular name on it. We were brought up to be people
:13:42. > :13:45.centred. When was the last time you saw her? I saw Jo the week before
:13:46. > :13:49.she was killed on the Thursday evening and she was campaigning on
:13:50. > :13:54.the EU referendum, and it was classic Jo. She came to our house
:13:55. > :14:05.and I lent her some clothes, so that John bottoms and a body, and we
:14:06. > :14:08.trotted -- some pyjama bottoms and a hoodie. We chatted about a few
:14:09. > :14:13.things and then I took her home. She said I will give you the hoodie back
:14:14. > :14:18.and I said no, next time. There never was a next time. I just
:14:19. > :14:23.remember her snuggling up on my couch with my hoodie on, just being
:14:24. > :14:28.adorably cute and without the bad bone in her body. That is what makes
:14:29. > :14:33.it utterly heartbreaking that somebody so good, who would have
:14:34. > :14:41.done so much more good in the world, could just be taken away.
:14:42. > :14:51.We are living in, though, very, very strange times, very scary times,
:14:52. > :14:53.three terrorist attacks within months, when you saw news of those
:14:54. > :15:02.attacks, it can't have been easy? No. Those families have just been
:15:03. > :15:05.ripped apart, the victims and their families, their lives will never be
:15:06. > :15:17.the same again, and we have lived that. It has changed everything for
:15:18. > :15:25.ever. What would you say to people now, you have got the wristband
:15:26. > :15:32.which is quoting Jo's maiden speech... As I travel around the
:15:33. > :15:39.constituency, I realise we are far more united and have far more in
:15:40. > :15:43.common than that which divides us... Since Jo was murdered, I have been
:15:44. > :15:45.inundated with support from people with different faiths, different
:15:46. > :15:51.walks of life, things like, where you are brought up, who you pray to,
:15:52. > :15:54.those things are incidental. The majority of people care about
:15:55. > :15:58.others. Is that what you are hoping to achieve this weekend, with
:15:59. > :16:02.thousands of people getting together, I'm sure you could not
:16:03. > :16:07.have imagined it would get this big? No, it has been amazing, it has been
:16:08. > :16:10.Brendan's brainchild to make something out of what happened, we
:16:11. > :16:14.had no idea it would be embraced as it has been. It is about coming
:16:15. > :16:20.together for the common good. What do you think Jo would have made of
:16:21. > :16:24.all of this? She would be laughing her socks off, she would also be
:16:25. > :16:31.very, very proud, one thing which drives us all I think is, what Jo
:16:32. > :16:34.would want us to do and trying for something positive to come out of
:16:35. > :16:41.what has happened, that is what she would want. Kim, thank you so much
:16:42. > :16:51.for sharing those memories and those thoughts.
:16:52. > :16:55.Earlier, we heard about a community united in grief and anger after the
:16:56. > :17:00.tower block fire in London. But let's look at the wider
:17:01. > :17:02.picture in the UK. After three terrorist attacks
:17:03. > :17:05.in as many months and immigration a key election issue,
:17:06. > :17:07.are our communities more Joining the panel now
:17:08. > :17:10.are Sarfraz Manzoor, Jill Rutter from the think
:17:11. > :17:14.tank British Future, Neil Wallis, former deputy editor
:17:15. > :17:17.of the News of the World, and Haras Rafiq, chief executive of the
:17:18. > :17:31.Quilliam Foundation. Boosting starting with you, Sarfraz,
:17:32. > :17:34.it has been very eventful year, the elections, Brexit, the tragic
:17:35. > :17:39.events, are we more united than divided? It depends what we are
:17:40. > :17:43.talking about exactly in terms of being divided. I think in terms of
:17:44. > :17:46.religion, faith, ethnicity, there are pockets of the country which
:17:47. > :17:49.feel like they are separate from the rest of the country, but I don't
:17:50. > :17:59.think that is necessarily the whole of the picture. I grew up in
:18:00. > :18:02.lieutenant, and there are parts of that which definitely feel divided.
:18:03. > :18:06.But when we look at the Grenfell Tower, that is a community which is
:18:07. > :18:11.divided from the very, very which neighbours only yards away, they are
:18:12. > :18:16.not divided by ethnicity, they are divided by class. Sometimes we can
:18:17. > :18:24.overemphasise faith and ethnicity as our dividing things, but often it is
:18:25. > :18:31.about class as well. Is it just scaremongering? No. I think there is
:18:32. > :18:34.a truth, I have spent a lot of time travelling around this country,
:18:35. > :18:39.working and personally lived in many different areas. The truth is, there
:18:40. > :18:43.is a serious issue in this country of divide between communities that
:18:44. > :18:49.choose to remain separate. And the vital word in that is choose. And
:18:50. > :18:52.that is where we need to move, the attitude needs to change within
:18:53. > :19:00.those communities, to say, we will come out. Until that happens, I'm
:19:01. > :19:05.afraid we will remain divided. Sarfraz, they choose to remain
:19:06. > :19:10.divided? Yeah, I grew up in Luton in a really poor part, and I have just
:19:11. > :19:14.done a big piece for the Sunday Times Magazine, going to old, the
:19:15. > :19:18.thing is, I don't think anybody chooses to live in a crappy
:19:19. > :19:23.terrorist street, if they could, they would live in a much nicer
:19:24. > :19:30.house. So I think this is about economics as well. -- terrorist
:19:31. > :19:33.street. As soon as some Asians or non-white people go, the white
:19:34. > :19:37.people hugger off as well. So you can't just make it just about
:19:38. > :19:43.choice. You can't integrate if people keep moving out as well.
:19:44. > :19:49.Haras, has multiculturalism failed? I think aspects of it have. I think
:19:50. > :19:53.there has been an aspect of trying to promote people's differences
:19:54. > :19:56.rather than actually trying to promote an on the I am, if you like,
:19:57. > :20:01.one identity. There should be more integration, and I think this is one
:20:02. > :20:05.aspect. It is not just people choosing, it is able actually
:20:06. > :20:09.actively telling people, you're different. You mentioned the
:20:10. > :20:13.terrorist attacks, if you look at the things which are affecting us
:20:14. > :20:17.right now, we have what I call a triple threat, we have our liberal
:20:18. > :20:22.secular democracy under threat, we have the far left telling us there
:20:23. > :20:26.is nothing to see here, we have the far right telling us it is all about
:20:27. > :20:32.faith, it is all Islam, it is Islamists. As opposed to some people
:20:33. > :20:40.saying they have divine inspiration from above - and we have seen this
:20:41. > :20:43.polarisation. So, Jill is it religion, race, or is it the
:20:44. > :20:48.economic divide? It is a whole lot of things mapped onto each other.
:20:49. > :20:52.And it is very different in different parts of the country.
:20:53. > :20:59.There are integration issues in East Anglia, where you've got people from
:21:00. > :21:03.Eastern Europe concentrated in particular parts of the towns and
:21:04. > :21:11.cities, often not speaking English. We haven't as yet had an integration
:21:12. > :21:16.strategy in this country. There has been no such thing at a national
:21:17. > :21:22.level and then fermented locally. I think we need to think much more
:21:23. > :21:25.about what central government, city mayors, local government and
:21:26. > :21:30.communities actually do. I do agree with one thing, I wrote in the piece
:21:31. > :21:34.that you have to try and have a space between the Tim Howard and
:21:35. > :21:40.blaming. You can't just lame, it's all about those communities... If
:21:41. > :21:47.you just say that there are some issues, you can't just keep saying,
:21:48. > :21:51.we are victims, either. You talked about poor people with a little
:21:52. > :21:56.backyard and a little terraced house - well, the white people in Halifax,
:21:57. > :22:00.in Huddersfield, in all of these communities, live in exactly the
:22:01. > :22:05.same circumstances. The issue surely is that people either want to move
:22:06. > :22:13.outwards, assimilate into the greater community, or... I heard a
:22:14. > :22:17.very intelligent commentator talking about... She is a mixed-race lady,
:22:18. > :22:24.talking about how her mother proudly still does not speak English. That
:22:25. > :22:29.has to be a disaster. You have been getting in touch at home. Emma, what
:22:30. > :22:36.have people been saying? If you want to join the conversation, the
:22:37. > :22:39.hashtag is #bbcsml. This one says, the average person in the UK does
:22:40. > :22:44.not live in a community. Dreadful events such as we have seen ring out
:22:45. > :22:47.the best of community life for a few days before returning to apathy.
:22:48. > :22:53.Doreen says on Facebook after the terrorist tragedy in Manchester and
:22:54. > :22:57.in London, there was no division. People came together in support.
:22:58. > :23:01.However, maybe there are powers using this anger and grief for
:23:02. > :23:04.political gain. This one says, we are going through the toughest time
:23:05. > :23:07.in terms of security and integration, I think we need to come
:23:08. > :23:10.out of our comfort zone and reach out to others regardless of what we
:23:11. > :23:15.voted for and where we came from. Humanity is the biggest religion.
:23:16. > :23:20.And this one says - the country will only be divided if we let the media
:23:21. > :23:25.divide us. We all just want to have a useful life. And finally this one
:23:26. > :23:30.- we live in a country where we care more about the choices other people
:23:31. > :23:34.make, and not actually our own. We should stand together in hardship
:23:35. > :23:41.and troubled times and not fight amongst ourselves. We are joined now
:23:42. > :23:48.by Roxy Legane, who is from Reclaim, an organisation which helps Gallup
:23:49. > :23:52.bench leadership. I knew you work with working-class youth, do they
:23:53. > :23:55.think we are a united country at the moment? Yeah, so we work with
:23:56. > :23:59.working-class young people from across Greater Manchester. And they
:24:00. > :24:03.feel in their communities that they are living in areas which are very
:24:04. > :24:11.united, resilient, supportive of each other. They come together as
:24:12. > :24:14.can his from across different religions, backgrounds, ethnicities.
:24:15. > :24:18.And as a collective, they feel united and they respect that the
:24:19. > :24:22.challenges they may face might be different iced on those things but
:24:23. > :24:26.they unite iced on the fact that they are working-class and they are
:24:27. > :24:32.facing inequality. What about the wider community, do they feel
:24:33. > :24:34.divided from them? In terms of the bigger picture, the message which
:24:35. > :24:38.comes through continuously from our young people is that the people they
:24:39. > :24:49.feel most divided from our our political leaders. Wasn't it always
:24:50. > :24:52.that way? Young people have always said, they don't represent me, how
:24:53. > :24:56.is it different now? I think our young people feel disconnected is
:24:57. > :24:59.due to their class. They see political leaders who come from
:25:00. > :25:04.communities that are nothing like there's, and they are speaking and
:25:05. > :25:08.making decisions for them and for their lives, despite the fact that
:25:09. > :25:12.they have never had the same experience. They see it time and
:25:13. > :25:16.time again, and they are not listened to until there is a
:25:17. > :25:19.political conversation where I may be a leader requires a conversation
:25:20. > :25:25.for their own benefit. So, people feel very disconnected, but they are
:25:26. > :25:30.certainly feeling that right now in our current society. But we saw so
:25:31. > :25:32.many people turning out to vote, young people have now got social
:25:33. > :25:38.media, you could argue they have never had bigger voices, so what do
:25:39. > :25:41.you actually want to see change? We also saw the largest number of
:25:42. > :25:45.people from ethnic minorities and women going into the Houses of
:25:46. > :25:49.Parliament from the latest election? We work with young people under the
:25:50. > :25:57.age of 18, so they do not have the choice to be able to go out and vote
:25:58. > :26:02.in the same way. For them, they want to see political leaders come to
:26:03. > :26:04.them not just when there is a conversation around the corner, but
:26:05. > :26:10.consistently, because they value their voices, in changing the
:26:11. > :26:13.society around them, and that young people below the age of 18
:26:14. > :26:18.understand what is needed for young people. And that is what they want
:26:19. > :26:23.to see change. They want to be valued as experts in young people.
:26:24. > :26:28.Sean, they want their voices heard, we hope they are getting in touch
:26:29. > :26:32.with us this morning? You were shaking your head through that,
:26:33. > :26:36.Haras, is it about class and poverty, we talk about places like
:26:37. > :26:43.Hackney? The class issues have always been here in the UK. A couple
:26:44. > :26:48.of things I want to pick up on, one reason I was shaking my head was,
:26:49. > :26:53.we're still living in denial and victim blaming and blaming somebody
:26:54. > :26:57.else for the problem. It is not the responsibility of our politicians if
:26:58. > :27:05.in civil society, people are not mixing with each other. As civil
:27:06. > :27:09.society but we need to take on the challenge if we are actually seeing
:27:10. > :27:14.somebody as the other, all we are seeing a problem, we need to tackle
:27:15. > :27:23.it. So who is responsible? I don't I enter the idea of victimhood but
:27:24. > :27:28.here is the thing, if you are going to a school which is 99% Muslim, how
:27:29. > :27:31.do you solve that body that has got to be about catchment areas, that
:27:32. > :27:38.has got to be about faith schools, how do you solve it? Everybody has
:27:39. > :27:41.responsibility, as an individual, we have responsibility to learn
:27:42. > :27:48.English, our local authorities have responsibility in terms of catchment
:27:49. > :27:50.areas, where there is segregation and national government has a
:27:51. > :27:58.responsibility. We can all do things. Neil? I think that is
:27:59. > :28:04.entirely our problem. We have very absolute issue here. You talk about
:28:05. > :28:06.99% ethnicity in a school, that's because those people are
:28:07. > :28:15.deliberately choosing to live in that area, and not going... You say
:28:16. > :28:25.you have been there. Well, so have I, I have organised coverage of
:28:26. > :28:31.these things. Do you want an intelligent discussion or not? Is
:28:32. > :28:38.that your paper?! This is part of the problem. The point being, what
:28:39. > :28:42.you have here is, multiculturalism was thought to be a good idea at the
:28:43. > :28:46.time, and it was a brave idea, it was a warm and cuddly idea, but it
:28:47. > :28:52.hasn't worked. And we are reaping this now. I take your point, it is
:28:53. > :28:56.not about Islam, it is about this political ideology, but where do
:28:57. > :29:02.they come from? They come from very specific rockets of areas. That is
:29:03. > :29:05.very well-documented. How do you tackle that? It is a good question,
:29:06. > :29:07.and I know you're chomping at the bit, but time is against us, I'm
:29:08. > :29:22.afraid. Let's find out what has been going
:29:23. > :29:25.on with The Great Get Together. People have been joining them all
:29:26. > :29:33.over the place. The Archbishop of your summer John Sentamu, got
:29:34. > :29:38.involved at his local event. Andy Thorn French tweeted this picture of
:29:39. > :29:46.herself ready for The Great Get Together.
:29:47. > :29:49.Now a chance to meet a man who has a remarkable story to tell.
:29:50. > :29:51.He's shown drive and determination to achieve a lifetime ambition
:29:52. > :29:54.to take on a task that would daunt many people.
:29:55. > :30:05.Then Carpenter is a man fulfilling a dream. He lives amongst the
:30:06. > :30:10.beautiful countryside of Yorkshire. Hello. What a fantastic spot you
:30:11. > :30:16.have got. He is lucky enough to work from home. He has a whole menagerie
:30:17. > :30:25.of animals in his garden. But what has really made his dream come true
:30:26. > :30:36.is his family. Jack, aged nine. Ruby, six. Lilley, five. Joseph, 22
:30:37. > :30:41.months. He has adopted all four children, quite a family when you
:30:42. > :30:44.consider he is only 33 years old and single. Four children would be a
:30:45. > :30:50.handful for any parent but it is even more challenging for Ben
:30:51. > :30:56.because the children he chose to adopt have special needs. Jack is
:30:57. > :30:59.autistic with OCD. Ruby is visually and hearing impaired. Lily is
:31:00. > :31:04.profoundly deaf and visually impaired. Joseph has Downs syndrome.
:31:05. > :31:08.People say the children are very lucky to have you but I don't see
:31:09. > :31:11.that. I say I am very lucky to have the children. There are amount of
:31:12. > :31:22.get up and go is just marvellous to see. What kind of family did you
:31:23. > :31:26.grow up in? I grew up in a very religious family. My dad being a
:31:27. > :31:31.vicar. It was a very loving family. Always involved in the church and
:31:32. > :31:36.giving back to people. You started out as a carer in your life. Why
:31:37. > :31:40.wasn't that enough? Why did you need to adopt? It was just a piece of the
:31:41. > :31:46.jigsaw missing. I knew there was something else that I needed to
:31:47. > :31:53.fulfil that need, that urging me to become a father. What made you adopt
:31:54. > :31:57.children with disabilities? Children with additional needs are always
:31:58. > :32:04.overlooked within the care system. And I knew that. I knew it was what
:32:05. > :32:08.I wanted to do and the avenue I wanted to choose. When Ben first
:32:09. > :32:12.contacted his local council about adoption, he didn't exactly fit the
:32:13. > :32:20.average profile. Going back ten years ago, a young 21-year-old
:32:21. > :32:30.single gay male was unheard of, if you like. I thought it was not going
:32:31. > :32:34.to happen. To be told you have got unanimous decision and
:32:35. > :32:43.congratulations, you are going to be a father, for me it was almost that
:32:44. > :32:48.experience of giving birth. I didn't know who my child was going to be. I
:32:49. > :32:52.just knew that my child was out there. And along came Jack, bringing
:32:53. > :32:57.Ben face to face with the everyday reality of fatherhood. Can I see
:32:58. > :33:06.your tooth? Did it really come out? Let me look. Look at this tooth.
:33:07. > :33:11.Where do we need to put that tonight? Under my pillow! What was
:33:12. > :33:14.it like when you were finally accepted and finally allowed to
:33:15. > :33:19.become a father? It is a very funny feeling and something I hear a lot
:33:20. > :33:22.from adopters. There is not an instant love there. It was only
:33:23. > :33:27.three weeks later that Jack fell over and he really hurt his leg. You
:33:28. > :33:33.can remember that feeling that my child had heard himself. And this
:33:34. > :33:38.instant gush of love just came from nowhere. From then on it has grown
:33:39. > :33:46.and grown and his love has grown with mine. Our love has grown as a
:33:47. > :33:54.family. Daddy is the best daddy in the world. He really likes me. I
:33:55. > :34:02.don't like you. I love you! Despite the complex needs of the children,
:34:03. > :34:07.they are all thriving. Lily's disabilities are quite complex. She
:34:08. > :34:12.is missing the radius bone in her arms. She was a sorry little girl in
:34:13. > :34:19.many ways, in a wheelchair, constantly hooked up to a feeding
:34:20. > :34:26.machine, 24/7. Now she is a fun, outgoing child with a real zest for
:34:27. > :34:32.life. Lily is visually impaired. She is hearing-impaired. She is a very I
:34:33. > :34:40.can do character and she is a fighter, she really is. You want
:34:41. > :34:49.some help? OK. All right, darling. We can all have a go. What is this?
:34:50. > :34:54.Danger! What is it? Dangerous. You sign to her if you want to talk to
:34:55. > :35:02.her. Can you teach me? How do you say hello? Hello. And that is
:35:03. > :35:11.goodbye. You are very patient, aren't you? If the children ask you
:35:12. > :35:16.why haven't we got a family with a mum and dad like our other friends,
:35:17. > :35:21.what do you say? I don't think there is such thing as a stereotypical
:35:22. > :35:25.family any more. I know children with two mothers, two fathers, and
:35:26. > :35:32.yes, you will get people who believe children should be brought up with a
:35:33. > :35:35.mum and dad but my answer to that is if the lovers there and the
:35:36. > :35:43.stability is there, that is what the child once and is how a child will
:35:44. > :35:53.flourish. -- if the love is there, that is what the child wants. Ben
:35:54. > :36:04.has won a champion of the year award. But he has no intention of
:36:05. > :36:11.taking it easy. I will continue and probably adopt more children. Ben
:36:12. > :36:16.Carpenter. For Father's Day. Well, if you spoke to Tim Farron,
:36:17. > :36:20.the answer would appear to be no. He resigned from his job
:36:21. > :36:23.as leader of the Liberal Democrat party this week and this
:36:24. > :36:28.is what he had to say. To live as a committed Christian and
:36:29. > :36:30.live faithfully by the Bible's cheating has felt impossible for me.
:36:31. > :36:34.-- the Bible's teaching. Although Mr Farron said
:36:35. > :36:36.that he supported equal marriage and gay rights,
:36:37. > :36:38.he faced criticism during the election campaign
:36:39. > :36:40.for avoiding questions Joining us now from our
:36:41. > :36:43.studio in Exeter is Ann Widdecombe, former
:36:44. > :36:44.Conservative government minister who converted from C of E
:36:45. > :36:47.to Catholicism whilst And with me in the
:36:48. > :36:50.studio is Evan Harris a former MP who was president
:36:51. > :37:00.of the Liberal Democrats' Good morning to you both. Tim Farron
:37:01. > :37:04.decided he could not continue to live as a Christian and a political
:37:05. > :37:09.leader. Is it time to accept there is no place for religion in public
:37:10. > :37:12.life? I wouldn't say that and I certainly wouldn't accept that. Tim
:37:13. > :37:18.Farron did have particular difficulties because of the party
:37:19. > :37:23.that he was leading. But what really worries me about this controversy is
:37:24. > :37:29.that he voted for gay marriage, he didn't want to deny anybody else
:37:30. > :37:33.their rights, but he was denied his right to think and hold the view is
:37:34. > :37:37.that he had, to the extent that he couldn't really even feel confident
:37:38. > :37:43.in expressing them. In a truly free society, we should be able to be
:37:44. > :37:47.free to think as we will, and once you start trying to control thought,
:37:48. > :37:54.and I say again that Tim Farron voted one way but he may have
:37:55. > :37:59.thought another, when you try and control thought, that is not a free
:38:00. > :38:03.society and not a free party. As it become hard over the years to
:38:04. > :38:07.express your religious views because of the opposition to expressing
:38:08. > :38:13.religious views in the political sphere? I think undeniably it has
:38:14. > :38:17.become harder. When I first entered Parliament in 1987, it was perfectly
:38:18. > :38:23.normal to state your face and say why you are doing something. You
:38:24. > :38:25.didn't have to deny it at all. Then it was regarded as rather
:38:26. > :38:31.embarrassing to be a serious Christian. And now people regard it
:38:32. > :38:35.as somewhat odd. That was why Tim Farron was put in a very difficult
:38:36. > :38:39.position when he was asked if something was a sin. The population
:38:40. > :38:43.are so theologically illiterate that most people don't understand what is
:38:44. > :38:47.meant by sin and they would have thought it was unique condemnation
:38:48. > :38:53.or beginning the descent into hell or something. Tim was very careful
:38:54. > :38:55.about that but it is the sort of problem that Christians face. But of
:38:56. > :38:59.course you can still be a Christian and a politician but you have got to
:39:00. > :39:04.be brave and you have got to say what you think. I think if Tim had
:39:05. > :39:12.been a bit braver and had prevaricated a bit less, the problem
:39:13. > :39:14.might have been resolved at an earlier stage. She says it is
:39:15. > :39:19.becoming embarrassing. Is tolerance suffering in the name of equality
:39:20. > :39:22.and gay rights? I agree with her that it is very important that
:39:23. > :39:25.people have freedom of religious thought and freedom to express those
:39:26. > :39:28.religious thoughts, within the very broad limits of ensuring they are
:39:29. > :39:37.not inciting hatred with threatening language. I think there has been a
:39:38. > :39:40.swing towards society, not the law, condemning people even when they are
:39:41. > :39:43.not breaking the law for expressing their views. I would but rather have
:39:44. > :39:51.politicians expressing their views sincerely than behind the scenes,
:39:52. > :39:54.having dealings with religious leaders and putting things into law
:39:55. > :39:57.without being transparent. Letters be clear about Tim Farron. It seems
:39:58. > :40:03.to me as a party activist that the problem he had was not with me and
:40:04. > :40:08.people like me who are not religious and secular, and whether things are
:40:09. > :40:13.sinful, because that doesn't matter. I don't believe in heaven or hell.
:40:14. > :40:17.He is a political leader. How can it not matter? It did matter to other
:40:18. > :40:21.Christians who are liberal. The people who have criticised him
:40:22. > :40:24.publicly that I have seen our liberal Christians, gay Christians,
:40:25. > :40:29.and it matters to them that their comrade and leader thinks that they
:40:30. > :40:34.are in some way sinful. There is a battle and it is a big battle within
:40:35. > :40:39.the church now. I have got to say that in 1987 when Ann came into
:40:40. > :40:45.Parliament, you could be sent to prison for having consensual adult
:40:46. > :40:49.gay sex. Section 28, which Ann kept voting to keep meant that children
:40:50. > :40:55.in school were told that homosexuality was wrong. I think
:40:56. > :40:58.that if we are worried about the minority suffering, there is still a
:40:59. > :41:03.problem for gay rights greater than the problem there is for Christians
:41:04. > :41:07.feeling suppressed. Things have got better in his eyes. You have never
:41:08. > :41:13.hidden from expressing your religious views, have you? I
:41:14. > :41:15.certainly haven't. I would take issue over one thing. He said the
:41:16. > :41:24.pressure is coming from society rather than law. The bakers wouldn't
:41:25. > :41:27.think that. That case encapsulates what has gone wrong. I can't imagine
:41:28. > :41:33.anybody would ever agree that you would say to a homosexual I am not
:41:34. > :41:38.going to give you a cake, sell you a cake, because you are homosexual.
:41:39. > :41:46.But now things have got to such a slave each -- have got to such a
:41:47. > :41:52.stage that if there is a slogan on the cake which you disagree to, then
:41:53. > :41:59.in law you cannot produce that. We don't want to get into the case of
:42:00. > :42:04.the bakers. It happened in Northern Ireland. The key distinction is
:42:05. > :42:07.discrimination. We are not going to get into individual cases. That was
:42:08. > :42:12.in Northern Ireland, company Padua broken the law when they fail to
:42:13. > :42:19.decorate a case with a pro-gay marriage. Top people are getting in
:42:20. > :42:24.touch. Rich says modern society in the UK is a vast mixture of all
:42:25. > :42:43.faiths and politics should be faith free.
:42:44. > :42:48.Tim Farron did not say that he would change the law in any way. That is a
:42:49. > :42:58.lame's view on religion and politics. -- Elaine's view. And you
:42:59. > :43:05.can get in touch. Tomorrow judges at the European
:43:06. > :43:11.Court of Human Rights will meet to decide the future of a ten month
:43:12. > :43:15.old baby on a life support machine at London's Great
:43:16. > :43:18.Ormond Street Hospital. The child, Charlie Gard,
:43:19. > :43:21.has been in intensive care since October last year and has been
:43:22. > :43:33.at the centre of a legal battle Charlie Gard was born on the 4th of
:43:34. > :43:37.August, 2016, with a rare inherited disease that causes severe brain
:43:38. > :43:45.damage. Charlie is deaf and cannot breathe or eat unaided. Charlie's
:43:46. > :43:48.parents have been in a legal battle with doctors overextending Charlie's
:43:49. > :43:53.life and taking him to America to receive experimental nucleoside
:43:54. > :43:56.treatment. On the 8th of June this year they found out that the Supreme
:43:57. > :44:02.Court had rejected their appeal. The judge concluded that the prospect of
:44:03. > :44:06.the nucleoside treatment having any benefit is close to zero. We have
:44:07. > :44:10.had to stomach the fact that they don't want to do the treatment here.
:44:11. > :44:14.OK, we don't agree with that but we have to accept that. The fact that
:44:15. > :44:19.they are blocking us from taking him to another hospital in the world
:44:20. > :44:27.with one of the leading experts in this area, I can't to this day get
:44:28. > :44:30.my head round that. The parents have now taken Charlie's case to the
:44:31. > :44:35.European Court of Human Rights and have raised over ?1.3 million to pay
:44:36. > :44:39.for his care in the United States. Great Ormond Street, who have been
:44:40. > :44:42.looking after Charlie, has said their first responsibility is to put
:44:43. > :44:48.the interests of the child first and foremost. And that it is in
:44:49. > :44:51.Charlie's best interests to die with dignity. Connie Yates posted this
:44:52. > :44:53.photo of Charlie with his eyes open on her Facebook page saying the
:44:54. > :45:06.picture speaks a thousand words. This is deeply personal for his
:45:07. > :45:09.parents, but it raises wider issues. Should we leave it in the hands of
:45:10. > :45:15.medical experts, or should the law have the final say average I'm
:45:16. > :45:17.joined now by Dr Ravi Jayaram, a medical doctor and TV presenter.
:45:18. > :45:33.Author and broadcaster Rosie Millard. And Charles Foster, a
:45:34. > :45:36.medical law barrister. Good morning to you all. There has been a massive
:45:37. > :45:43.interest in this case, but should the parents have the final say? I
:45:44. > :45:47.think nothing is black and white. In reality, these decisions are working
:45:48. > :45:53.in shades of grey and managing uncertainty. Charlie is a little boy
:45:54. > :45:56.with a genetic condition which means his body can't use lies energy
:45:57. > :46:00.properly and his organs don't work. The long-term outlook is not good,
:46:01. > :46:06.he's being kept alive by technology, so he has machines breathing for him
:46:07. > :46:09.and doing his feeding for him. The feeling from the doctors at Great
:46:10. > :46:13.Ormond Street, who are not falls, is that the chance of recovery is
:46:14. > :46:16.virtually nil. There is a potential treatment which is parents have
:46:17. > :46:20.identified which might at best stop the progression of the disease for a
:46:21. > :46:24.short period of time. And the question here is, is that in the
:46:25. > :46:28.best interests of Charlie in the long run? Who should make the
:46:29. > :46:31.decision? Ideally there should be a collaborative decision between the
:46:32. > :46:37.health care professionals and the parents. In my own experience, this
:46:38. > :46:41.can take time. It appears that the relationship has broken down to such
:46:42. > :46:44.an extent between the health care professionals and the parents that
:46:45. > :46:49.common ground can't be found, and in that situation, there really is no
:46:50. > :46:54.other way other than following the legal route. What makes judges
:46:55. > :46:58.qualified to make this decision? They're human beings with families,
:46:59. > :47:02.with feelings, they also know what previous judges have said about what
:47:03. > :47:08.is the interest means, but also, they've got the time to sit and
:47:09. > :47:13.listen to lots of expert opinion, they've got time to listen to the
:47:14. > :47:16.parents. They can approach these enormously emotionally charged
:47:17. > :47:23.decisions with a degree of leisure which often isn't present in the
:47:24. > :47:28.clinical coalface, where these decisions are often made. Rosie
:47:29. > :47:33.Millard, should it be how she is, should it be lawyers? This is a
:47:34. > :47:37.horrendous thing and my heart goes out to Charlie's parents and the
:47:38. > :47:43.doctors looking after him, and to Charlie. There is no winner in this
:47:44. > :47:48.situation. By the time it gets up to the human quarter rights, that is an
:47:49. > :47:53.enormous thing. I think the trouble is, I grew up in a medical family,
:47:54. > :47:59.all my siblings, my parents are doctors. I can remember a time when
:48:00. > :48:03.doctors were like God, they decided, they have the knowledge, they had
:48:04. > :48:11.the mystery, as it were and they made the decision, again, with the
:48:12. > :48:17.best motives. They weren't malign about it. But now, we have the
:48:18. > :48:19.internet, we have social media, we have an enormous amount of
:48:20. > :48:27.information out there, which parents can access, and Charlie's parents
:48:28. > :48:31.have accessed and found that there is a therapy in America, and they
:48:32. > :48:36.have raised ?1.5 million, they have got a huge campaign online. So that
:48:37. > :48:40.makes the whole thing very, very difficult, because it has become a
:48:41. > :48:45.massive campaign, with newspapers and programmes like this discussing
:48:46. > :48:48.it. Shouldn't we just trust the doctors, they know what they're
:48:49. > :48:55.talking about, don't they, Neil? Very often, yes. Very often they do
:48:56. > :49:00.the right thing. Sometimes they don't. Rosie was completely right,
:49:01. > :49:03.everybody loses in this situation. The problem is, you tend to lose
:49:04. > :49:09.sight of the centre of this story, which is this little baby. I'm
:49:10. > :49:14.afraid on this occasion, I certainly don't believe doctors are gods, I
:49:15. > :49:18.don't think they come actors that. They've been very helpful to me in
:49:19. > :49:22.my life, but I think it had to be taken outside the emotional cauldron
:49:23. > :49:31.that this has become, with entrenched parties. And I do believe
:49:32. > :49:34.that the answer was to take it to the neutral, thoughtful people who
:49:35. > :49:42.are going to make the best judgment for Charlie. We have to think also
:49:43. > :49:46.about, what is it going to do to this poor baby, to take him to
:49:47. > :49:52.America? Precisely. We do not know what he is suffering. What have you
:49:53. > :49:57.got for us, Emma? Well, we have got some responses coming in. If you
:49:58. > :50:03.want to get in touch, you can do so via #bbcsml. I'm also going to speak
:50:04. > :50:08.to a journalist, Charmian Evans, who lost her child at five years old and
:50:09. > :50:11.faced an agonising decision. Good morning. Can you tell us what
:50:12. > :50:16.happened to you and your family? Well, my son was born perfectly
:50:17. > :50:20.normal, and then when he was about four and a half months old, he
:50:21. > :50:25.stopped breathing, he was a near miss cot death and he became
:50:26. > :50:30.massively brain-damaged, was to fate, he was fitting regularly, I
:50:31. > :50:34.used to have to manually evacuate his bowels, he couldn't move, he
:50:35. > :50:39.couldn't talk, he could see and he could hear, we think. But beyond
:50:40. > :50:43.that, he really had a very poor quality-of-life. We made it as best
:50:44. > :50:46.we could for the short time that we had him. He died when he was five
:50:47. > :50:51.and a half, and at the end of his life, actually, we did decide that
:50:52. > :50:54.we didn't want any medical intervention, should he get any
:50:55. > :51:00.chest infections, which he did, that's what he died of in the end.
:51:01. > :51:03.And I feel really with the Gard family, and Mitre ten Cup really
:51:04. > :51:10.goes out to them, I feel very much with the Gards that we've got a
:51:11. > :51:14.similar situation in that I think that when my son was about eight
:51:15. > :51:18.months old, about the same age as little Charlie now, I really didn't
:51:19. > :51:23.feel that I wanted to take on board what they were trying to tell me
:51:24. > :51:27.about his condition. Because I think that I was almost cherry-pick in the
:51:28. > :51:31.information, because I felt that he was going to buck the system. And I
:51:32. > :51:37.can see that's where the parents are now. But, you know, the difference
:51:38. > :51:47.is that as time went on, we realised that there was going to be no hope
:51:48. > :51:51.for Guy, he was never going to grow old, he was never going to have any
:51:52. > :51:56.dignity as an adult. I do worry a lot for the Gards that they're
:51:57. > :52:00.following this case in America, rightly so, every family fights for
:52:01. > :52:03.their children, it is what makes you a good parent, but what I would like
:52:04. > :52:10.to say is that if this little boy does go over to American, and he
:52:11. > :52:15.does have this sort of treatment, there's such a very, very he's
:52:16. > :52:20.chance that it might help him. The boy in America is having 12
:52:21. > :52:25.treatments day, and that is untenable, to think of that giving
:52:26. > :52:29.any quality of life to a child with kidney problems, heart problems, who
:52:30. > :52:36.is fitting. And what happens if this little boy is made slightly better,
:52:37. > :52:40.just enough to...? Wouldn't you take that chance, I know you have been in
:52:41. > :52:44.this situation, but people will be saying, wouldn't you do anything you
:52:45. > :52:49.could to try and save your child's life doubly well, yes, of course I
:52:50. > :52:54.did when my son was taken into intensive care, when he was four and
:52:55. > :52:58.a half months old. Because we did not know what the prognosis would
:52:59. > :53:04.be. But there are so many things wrong with little Charlie, he's
:53:05. > :53:08.always going to be brain-damaged, he has got kidney problems, he's got
:53:09. > :53:13.heart problems, he's fitting regularly. He is a living death,
:53:14. > :53:17.he's not having any quality-of-life, and he never will have
:53:18. > :53:20.quality-of-life. As I say, if this mitochondrial treatment that has
:53:21. > :53:24.been trying on mice with some success and is being try down
:53:25. > :53:28.several people in the United States, and none of these people are as bad
:53:29. > :53:35.as Charlie, if this does have some quality in improving his life, what
:53:36. > :53:39.is this little boy going to do? Is he suddenly going to start feeling
:53:40. > :53:42.more pain, is he going to start feeling aware of the bleakness of
:53:43. > :53:49.his life? I'm really sorry to have to say this, but I just worry that,
:53:50. > :53:52.who is this little boy being kept alive for? What is the point of it
:53:53. > :54:02.all in the end? Thank you very much for sharing that with us. Emma, such
:54:03. > :54:06.a difficult story, let's talk to Dr Ravi - have you ever come to a
:54:07. > :54:10.situation where you disagree with parents? I have been lucky enough,
:54:11. > :54:14.when it has got to discussing end of life care, when eventually, we have
:54:15. > :54:17.come to a collaborative agreement of what we feel is the way forward. I
:54:18. > :54:22.am not saying the right way or the wrong way, because you never know. I
:54:23. > :54:26.think it is important to realise that this is a difficult decision
:54:27. > :54:29.all-round. I think with Charlie, the important thing is, what are you
:54:30. > :54:35.trying to achieve? This is an experiment will treatment which at
:54:36. > :54:38.best may well on his life. It will not improve his quality-of-life. The
:54:39. > :54:42.doctors at Great Ormond Street feel that from the point of view of how
:54:43. > :54:51.his brain and body functions, things aren't going to improve. He's stuck
:54:52. > :54:54.on the end of the -- a ventilator, with machines keeping him alive. I
:54:55. > :54:58.can understand why the parents would want to do everything to keep their
:54:59. > :55:02.child alive. But from Charlie's point of view, what are we trying to
:55:03. > :55:07.achieve? It might make it worse. It might, but there's also risks in
:55:08. > :55:12.transporting a child across to America. The other thing which I
:55:13. > :55:16.think is important here, it is being portrayed in the media as the poor
:55:17. > :55:20.parents versus the medical establishment, who are heartless,
:55:21. > :55:23.but actually these decisions are difficult for everybody involved.
:55:24. > :55:29.Briefly, what lessons can be learned from this? These cases are
:55:30. > :55:36.enormously difficult, enormously heart-rending but they are holistic
:55:37. > :55:39.determinations. The clinicians will be the experts on prognosis.
:55:40. > :55:44.Everybody's voice will have to be listened to. Almost all of these
:55:45. > :55:48.decisions, thank Widnes, I made outside of a court room by the kind
:55:49. > :55:53.of consensus which it is usually possible to sort it out with.
:55:54. > :55:58.Occasionally, unfortunately, it does have to come to court. And it is
:55:59. > :56:06.usually a terrible job, in cutting through this. They hate doing it,
:56:07. > :56:10.these tiny number of cases are the ones they do not like, but thank
:56:11. > :56:12.goodness they're there to do it. Thank you very much indeed, all of
:56:13. > :56:16.you. That's nearly all
:56:17. > :56:19.from us for this week. Many thanks to all our guests
:56:20. > :56:21.and for your contributions too. Emma will be continuing
:56:22. > :56:23.the conversation online. I'll be on Facebook live
:56:24. > :56:25.talking to Dr Ravi Jayaram about the Charlie Gard case
:56:26. > :56:30.and putting your questions to him. You can contact us
:56:31. > :56:35.@bbcsundaymorninglive We'll leave you with singers
:56:36. > :56:39.from Kensington Temple, a church near the devastated
:56:40. > :56:42.Glenfell Tower in London. They're here to pay tribute to those
:56:43. > :56:46.who died and remember those who are injured
:56:47. > :57:05.and those who grieve. # When I am down and my soul, so
:57:06. > :57:29.weary # When troubles come
:57:30. > :57:31.# # Until you come and sit awhile with
:57:32. > :57:51.me # You raise me up
:57:52. > :57:51.# I am strong when I am on your shoulders
:57:52. > :58:04.# You raise me up
:58:05. > :58:22.# You raise me up to more than I # You raise me up,
:58:23. > :58:27.# You raise me up to walk on stormy seas
:58:28. > :58:33.# I am strong when I am on your shoulders
:58:34. > :58:39.# You raise me up to more than I can be
:58:40. > :58:57.# I am strong when I am on your shoulders