:00:07. > :00:13.On today's programme: Veteran soldiers who served
:00:14. > :00:15.in Northern Ireland may face questioning over killings which took
:00:16. > :00:21.A former head of the British Army says it's outrageous.
:00:22. > :00:26.Ed Skrein pulls out of a big Hollywood movie because he didn't
:00:27. > :00:28.think it was right to play a character of Asian heritage.
:00:29. > :00:32.Is it wrong for white actors to take such roles?
:00:33. > :00:34.Wendy Robbins joins children taking a special holiday away
:00:35. > :00:37.from their homes near the site of the world's worst
:00:38. > :00:56.Tell me what you know about Chernobyl. It is a city in the
:00:57. > :01:00.Ukraine. There was an explosion at the power station.
:01:01. > :01:03.And the man known as the vicar of Baghdad tells Martin Bashir
:01:04. > :01:06.what happened when he asked terrorist leaders round for a meal.
:01:07. > :01:15.I invited Isis round for dinner and they said yes, but we will chop your
:01:16. > :01:25.head off afterwards. So I didn't take it up.
:01:26. > :01:28.All that coming up and Emma Barnett is here ready to let
:01:29. > :01:38.And good morning to you. We want to hear from you on all of our
:01:39. > :01:40.discussions today. You can contact us by
:01:41. > :01:42.Facebook and Twitter. Don't forget to use
:01:43. > :01:44.the hashtag #bbcsml. Or text SML followed
:01:45. > :01:46.by your message to 60011. Texts are charged at your
:01:47. > :01:49.standard message rate. Or email us at
:01:50. > :01:52.sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk. However you choose to get in touch,
:01:53. > :01:55.please don't forget to include your name so I can get you involved
:01:56. > :01:58.in the programme, including whether you think big bosses
:01:59. > :02:02.deserve big salaries. First, it was revealed this week
:02:03. > :02:06.that elderly soldiers who served in Northern Ireland
:02:07. > :02:10.with the British Army may be called to give evidence on fresh inquests
:02:11. > :02:13.into deaths during the Troubles, a period of violence from the late
:02:14. > :02:18.1960s to the late 1990s. Families of some of those who died
:02:19. > :02:23.will welcome further investigation. But the former head
:02:24. > :02:26.of the British Army, General Lord Dannatt,
:02:27. > :02:28.says it's outrageous to expect soldiers,
:02:29. > :02:30.some now in their 70s and 80s, Is it wrong to pursue soldiers over
:02:31. > :02:35.actions in Northern Ireland? Joining me now to discuss
:02:36. > :02:37.that are Dawn Foster, a journalist and broadcaster,
:02:38. > :02:41.Mark Thompson from the campaign group Relatives For Justice,
:02:42. > :02:46.Alan Barry, a former soldier from Justice For Northern Ireland
:02:47. > :02:57.Veterans, and Ruth Dudley Edwards, Mark, many veterans feel that this
:02:58. > :03:04.is a witchhunt. Can you understand how they feel? Well, there is a
:03:05. > :03:08.motive at play. It is not a witchhunt. The figures are borne out
:03:09. > :03:12.that there are only three soldiers subject to potential charges being
:03:13. > :03:16.taken forward in respect of 400 people killed by so-called security
:03:17. > :03:20.forces. If you were sitting at home in the north of Ireland today and
:03:21. > :03:24.your child was killed, and we are dealing with a legacy of impunity
:03:25. > :03:28.and nobody held into account, then now is the time that we address that
:03:29. > :03:33.and there is a mechanism to address that. Those governments and all the
:03:34. > :03:39.political parties have agreed to it. Unfortunately their residual
:03:40. > :03:43.process. There is a campaign by soldiers and by the British
:03:44. > :03:48.government to provide a smothering blanket to the truth being told.
:03:49. > :03:53.Either you believe in justice and you apply it evenly, which has never
:03:54. > :03:57.happened. A smothering blanket covering something up and they don't
:03:58. > :04:01.want to talk about it? That is total rubbish. The soldiers were
:04:02. > :04:05.interviewed at the time of the incidents. This case here relates to
:04:06. > :04:09.a 74-year-old veteran who was involved in an incident in the
:04:10. > :04:14.1970s. He was questioned at the time of the incident, as were all the
:04:15. > :04:17.people on that patrol. He was questioned again about 20 years
:04:18. > :04:24.after the incident. And then yet again he was arrested about three
:04:25. > :04:29.years ago, questioned again, and on this occasion, he was held in
:04:30. > :04:33.detention for three days and questioned 26 times. Harold Shipman
:04:34. > :04:37.was only questioned ten times. We don't want to get into individual
:04:38. > :04:43.cases, but the idea that veterans are being hounded? These are people
:04:44. > :04:46.who have already given evidence. It is an affront. Many of the soldiers
:04:47. > :04:53.who have bald triggers and killed people were questioned not a suspect
:04:54. > :04:58.but as witnesses. Questions from 19721973, by their own colleagues.
:04:59. > :05:02.European Court of Human Rights have found UK Government in violation of
:05:03. > :05:05.its investigative duties in respect of the north of Ireland in which the
:05:06. > :05:08.investigations have been partial, perfunctory and have not delivered
:05:09. > :05:15.accountability, and that is a fact that it is on going out at this
:05:16. > :05:20.minute and the UK Government are gaining because they have
:05:21. > :05:24.continually fails. 25,000 Republicans spent over 100,000 years
:05:25. > :05:28.in jail. A handful of British soldiers were convicted of killing
:05:29. > :05:35.and then reinstated in their regiments, some promoted and given
:05:36. > :05:42.back pay. Vindictive message -- the indicative message is not good.
:05:43. > :05:45.Joining me now is the former head of the British Army General
:05:46. > :05:52.Good morning. You have said it is outrageous, to use that word, that
:05:53. > :05:57.people are being investigated again over this. Why is it outrageous? I
:05:58. > :06:02.think that over the years we have had enough of what is effectively a
:06:03. > :06:04.witchhunt. Just reflect on the large number of allegations made against
:06:05. > :06:14.British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. The vast majority of
:06:15. > :06:18.which turned out to be vexatious and false and now we are going back to
:06:19. > :06:23.Northern Ireland. I was in command 20 years ago and we were involved in
:06:24. > :06:25.a number of incidents in intense circumstances but everything was
:06:26. > :06:30.investigated properly according to the rules and legislation of the
:06:31. > :06:34.time. People are probably not aware. A soldier on patrol with his rifle
:06:35. > :06:39.had 20 rounds of ammunition. You had to account for every one of those
:06:40. > :06:45.rounds of ammunition. If I can just jump in? Are you saying that all of
:06:46. > :06:49.these cases categorically have been investigated as thoroughly as they
:06:50. > :06:53.should be? They were investigated thoroughly at the time. When anybody
:06:54. > :06:57.fired a single round, that round had to be accounted for. The Royal
:06:58. > :07:00.Military Police and the Royal Ulster Constabulary took statements and the
:07:01. > :07:04.thing was investigated properly at the time. Are you proud of the way
:07:05. > :07:08.the British Army acted in Northern Ireland? I am proud of the way the
:07:09. > :07:12.British Army has acted in all the campaigns that we have been involved
:07:13. > :07:18.in over an extraordinary period of time. So if everything was accounted
:07:19. > :07:25.for? Why are the authorities agreeing to the reopening of some of
:07:26. > :07:29.these cases? The Ministry of Defence is agreeing because it is fearful of
:07:30. > :07:36.European Court of Human Rights and fearful of Britain coming under
:07:37. > :07:39.pressure from European legislation. That is understandable. The point I
:07:40. > :07:43.am trying to make is that many of these incidents took place many
:07:44. > :07:47.years ago. They were investigated properly and thoroughly at the time
:07:48. > :07:51.and it is thoroughly unreasonable, and outrageous as an expression I
:07:52. > :07:55.have used before, to expect soldiers in their 70s and early 80s to have
:07:56. > :08:01.any kind of recall of what happened at the time. Some people should say
:08:02. > :08:04.there should be no time limit on justice? I think there is a
:08:05. > :08:09.practical aspect to this as well. I think a statue of limitations is a
:08:10. > :08:14.well-known concept. I think something like 30 years is probably
:08:15. > :08:18.a reasonable length of time. The point I am trying to make is that it
:08:19. > :08:25.was not lawless, everything up for grabs at the time. Matters were
:08:26. > :08:30.properly investigated. For example, I gave evidence in several trials
:08:31. > :08:33.and various coroner courts and things are investigated properly
:08:34. > :08:38.according to the procedures at the time. It is thoroughly unreasonable
:08:39. > :08:41.30, 40, 50 years later to start to apply different principles and
:08:42. > :08:46.procedures in very historic cases now. Lord Dannatt, thank you.
:08:47. > :08:52.Thoroughly unreasonable to go back to this period of time? Everything
:08:53. > :08:55.was investigated at the time, according to Lord Dannatt, and he
:08:56. > :09:00.says it is unreasonable and a witchhunt. Is that how you see it?
:09:01. > :09:04.Not remotely. It is a small number of people. I don't think it was
:09:05. > :09:08.properly investigated at the time. It was investigated by the British
:09:09. > :09:13.state themselves and people need to look at it objectively. If we argue
:09:14. > :09:15.that we should have a statute of limitations 30 years later, then we
:09:16. > :09:23.need to look at how the problems in the north are completely different
:09:24. > :09:28.to rain. We are getting onto 20 years since the peace process began.
:09:29. > :09:30.If soldiers believe they acted appropriately, they should not worry
:09:31. > :09:33.and they should actually want to give families the answer is that
:09:34. > :09:39.they want. They have given the answers. They haven't. A huge number
:09:40. > :09:42.of families do not know exactly what happened when their relatives and
:09:43. > :09:45.their children died. They want answers and they want to move on and
:09:46. > :09:49.they can't do that without proper investigation and soldiers being
:09:50. > :09:52.questioned at suspect and not just witnesses. There was an
:09:53. > :09:59.investigation at the time. Do we keep investigating until they die?
:10:00. > :10:04.Lord Dannatt was only talking about soldiers. The former British soldier
:10:05. > :10:08.using a pseudonym wrote about faith and duty and in that book he wrote
:10:09. > :10:14.about the rules of engagement, put them in the bin. We shoot first and
:10:15. > :10:17.we ask questions later. That man killed the father of two baby
:10:18. > :10:21.infants and his family want the truth now. The point being that
:10:22. > :10:25.ammunition was accounted for, but better than that the issue and the
:10:26. > :10:29.legacy has got to be addressed as part of the transitional process. We
:10:30. > :10:33.don't have time to go into individual cases. Let me bring in
:10:34. > :10:38.Ruth. Can we understand the relatives of the victims? There is
:10:39. > :10:42.no time limit on justice and they want answers for the questions. I
:10:43. > :10:46.have the deepest sympathy for the relatives of people killed during
:10:47. > :10:50.the Troubles and I have been involved in the civil case against
:10:51. > :10:54.the Omagh bombers, for instance. I have been involved with a lot of
:10:55. > :10:57.these people and I have sympathy with people on all sides about this
:10:58. > :11:02.but let's be clear. At the beginning of the peace process, Sinn Fein used
:11:03. > :11:09.to say we don't want a hierarchy of victims. In other words, the bomber
:11:10. > :11:12.who went out to kill, killed by his own bomb, is on a par with the
:11:13. > :11:17.victim that he killed at the same time. They have now reached the
:11:18. > :11:22.stage where there is a hierarchy of victims. For some reason or other
:11:23. > :11:29.the Republican victims matter and the same is not true of state
:11:30. > :11:36.forces. Hold on, Mark. That is the case! Let her finish. We will not
:11:37. > :11:40.say there are two lot of perpetrators. If you are soldier,
:11:41. > :11:43.there will be papers on you and colleagues at the time might give
:11:44. > :11:48.evidence against you and you are paramilitary there are no records
:11:49. > :11:53.anywhere and nobody will give evidence against you because they
:11:54. > :11:59.could be killed. It puts the troops in a completely impossible position.
:12:00. > :12:04.There are records of what the troops did and there are no records of what
:12:05. > :12:07.the Republicans did. That is blatantly not the truth and any
:12:08. > :12:11.observer would know that the RUC, it just proud of the peace agreement in
:12:12. > :12:15.1998, destroyed tens of thousands of records that it held of its own
:12:16. > :12:19.agents involved in loyalist paramilitaries and its own agents in
:12:20. > :12:28.the IRA. They destroyed them and it is a record in the courts. They
:12:29. > :12:32.destroyed them because they work stored in a building contaminated by
:12:33. > :12:34.asbestos but they did not provide a health and safety certificate for
:12:35. > :12:38.that. There are lots of allegations being made here and I think it is
:12:39. > :12:42.part of a propaganda campaign. At the end of the day, you have got to
:12:43. > :12:45.deal in facts. The fact this. Under the terms of the Good Friday
:12:46. > :12:52.Agreement, where this all started, the Blair government sold at the
:12:53. > :12:54.British Army, both here on the mainland our colleagues in Northern
:12:55. > :12:57.Ireland. It was a treacherous agreement were effectively nobody
:12:58. > :13:00.knew the full details of the agreement and behind closed doors,
:13:01. > :13:06.effectively we were left open for prosecution. If you release over 300
:13:07. > :13:11.prisoners who have been convicted of terrorist crimes and murders, and
:13:12. > :13:16.then issue over 150 on the run letters to people who had not even
:13:17. > :13:21.been apprehended, and then you have... Can I finish? Gerry Adams
:13:22. > :13:26.two days ago saying it would be counter-productive to jail the IRA
:13:27. > :13:31.killers of Tom Oliver, a farmer, who was shot in the back of the head for
:13:32. > :13:37.being accused of being an informer. Come on, guys, let's get real. That
:13:38. > :13:40.is what many people are saying. Are we chasing both sides equally?
:13:41. > :13:46.Republicans who have done a lot of bad things are walking free and they
:13:47. > :13:51.are pursuing British soldiers. Due process was applied during the
:13:52. > :13:54.conflict against Republicans. There is a legacy and a deficit of
:13:55. > :13:59.accountability and justice. I just want to come to your point. If we
:14:00. > :14:03.follow this logic, we are saying that those that have culpability for
:14:04. > :14:11.Grenfell Tower or Hillsborough should not be charged. Let me bring
:14:12. > :14:14.in the views of people at home in a moment but a final word from Lord
:14:15. > :14:18.Dannatt. If there are family members of victims who feel they are owed
:14:19. > :14:24.justice and they are watching this, do you want to say anything to them?
:14:25. > :14:29.I can fully understand if someone wants to know what happened to their
:14:30. > :14:33.loved one. But I am afraid that is one point. It stands in isolation to
:14:34. > :14:37.the other point. One of your contributors to the programme has
:14:38. > :14:40.already made that point. Just because the British Army is an
:14:41. > :14:44.organised organisation and regiments exist, it is possible to go to
:14:45. > :14:49.regimental associations and veteran soldiers and ask them for
:14:50. > :14:52.statements. It is impossible to do that of the provisional IRA. It is
:14:53. > :14:56.impossible to do that of loyalist terrorists. Just because you can get
:14:57. > :15:03.access to veterans does not provide an excuse or rationale for doing
:15:04. > :15:06.that. Frankly, things that happened 30, 40, 50 years ago, I am afraid
:15:07. > :15:10.were investigated at the time and that is the end of the matter. It is
:15:11. > :15:13.not reasonable to pursue aged soldiers now just because it is
:15:14. > :15:21.possible to get hold of them. But darn it, thank for your views. --
:15:22. > :15:29.Lord Dannatt, thank you for your views. You have been getting in
:15:30. > :15:33.touch. My father was a policeman and he said three tours and he was
:15:34. > :15:36.attacked at by a mob, blown out of his bed by a car bomb, and if you
:15:37. > :15:40.want to apportion blame, look the politicians in charge at the time
:15:41. > :15:44.and look at their policies then and now. Laura says that soldiers should
:15:45. > :15:47.not be investigated for doing their jobs. But if they have been
:15:48. > :15:51.torturing people, whatever they have done, they should be investigated
:15:52. > :15:56.and punished. Sarah says there is far too much praise of soldiery in
:15:57. > :15:59.this country. They argument with brains and if they commit dreadful
:16:00. > :16:01.acts, the weight of the law should be thrown. People cannot respect us
:16:02. > :16:06.if we act like animals. The actor Ed Skrein has had a lot
:16:07. > :16:09.of attention this week. Not for a part he's playing,
:16:10. > :16:12.but for one he isn't. Skrein pulled out of a Hellboy
:16:13. > :16:16.film because he was cast in the comic book
:16:17. > :16:18.adaption as a character Skrein said he was stepping down
:16:19. > :16:25.so that the role can be cast His decision comes
:16:26. > :16:29.amidst a row about so called "whitewashing" in Hollywood,
:16:30. > :16:31.using white actors to play First, let's join Mehreen Baig to
:16:32. > :16:47.see how the controversy is viewed by For over 60 years, the National
:16:48. > :16:48.youth theatre has been helping launch the careers of young
:16:49. > :17:05.hopefuls. If she be false, then heaven mocks
:17:06. > :17:08.itself. They are rehearsing Othello, Shakespeare's tragedy about the
:17:09. > :17:17.doomed mixed race marriage, with the title role for a black character. In
:17:18. > :17:24.this version, the action is set in a pub. Not the appetites. Mohammed is
:17:25. > :17:28.playing Othello in this production. Does Othello have to be played by a
:17:29. > :17:33.black man? I think if you look at the text that Shakespeare has
:17:34. > :17:36.written, the depictions and the description of the character as
:17:37. > :17:43.well, going from bad, I would say yes. And this is the greatest
:17:44. > :17:49.discord be, that ever our hearts shall meet. Recently, Ed Skrein took
:17:50. > :17:56.a stand against whitewashing in Hollywood. How do you feel about
:17:57. > :18:03.that? Incredible. Also, it should happen more often. The fact it was
:18:04. > :18:07.him, for Hellboy, such a massive film, that obviously got a lot of
:18:08. > :18:12.attraction, got a lot of people noticing it more. Should it not be
:18:13. > :18:20.based on merit, rather than looking at the colour of people? I think it
:18:21. > :18:25.is about the story, the story that the piece of theatre or film is
:18:26. > :18:28.telling. If you're casting something that needs to represent the
:18:29. > :18:39.multicultural society wearing, you should cast for that. Desdemona is
:18:40. > :18:43.honest. Have you seen any of the classic adaptations of Othello? I
:18:44. > :18:52.have. What is your opinion of them? I think they are terrible. They
:18:53. > :18:56.rained all kinds of sewers and shames on my bare head. Particularly
:18:57. > :19:03.actors that decided to black up and play Othello. I do not know why they
:19:04. > :19:07.thought that was a good decision. The heavens forbid, but that our
:19:08. > :19:16.lives and comfort should increase, even as our days do grow. Amen to
:19:17. > :19:23.that. If you've got an offer for a Hollywood lead role that the person
:19:24. > :19:29.was a different race, a different ethnicity to you, would you consider
:19:30. > :19:35.it? At the moment, in the current climate of things, no. I am not in a
:19:36. > :19:38.position to tell that story if the race is of particular importance.
:19:39. > :19:43.Something I would love to see more of, when main parts are played by
:19:44. > :19:51.black women or black men, is it not to be about slavery, or about is
:19:52. > :19:56.being made and butlers. I am very hopeful for my career in the future,
:19:57. > :20:03.that claims will be changing by the time, hopefully, that I get to that
:20:04. > :20:05.stage. And this, the greatest discord is be that ever our hearts
:20:06. > :20:07.shall break. Mehreen Baig with some views
:20:08. > :20:09.from young actors with the Here to discuss this
:20:10. > :20:12.further are Kunle Olulode, a film historian and
:20:13. > :20:26.critic, and Vera Chok, an actress Thank you for joining us today. Can
:20:27. > :20:31.I come to you first, Kunle. Was Ed Skrein rate to resign this part? I
:20:32. > :20:37.think for Ed Skrein it is right. It is a gesture. If we are talking
:20:38. > :20:43.about the underrepresentation of East Asian actors in both film and
:20:44. > :20:49.theatre, then really it is no more than a token effort. The issues are
:20:50. > :20:53.much broader than that. To be honest, I think what is exciting
:20:54. > :20:59.about the current period is the issue is being raised, but also, the
:21:00. > :21:03.opportunities for East Asian actors are on the agenda. Do you have a
:21:04. > :21:09.problem with white actors generally playing parts that are of different
:21:10. > :21:13.ethnic origin to them? Historically a Hollywood has marginalised East
:21:14. > :21:19.Asian and black actors to that effect. But the issue of addressing
:21:20. > :21:24.that by simply not taking parts, there is a danger that we take it
:21:25. > :21:29.into another problem area, I kind of cultural apartheid. So you can only
:21:30. > :21:34.do the roles you match? That would be short-sighted and clumsy. I do
:21:35. > :21:38.think that the question of the expansion of both, the involvement
:21:39. > :21:43.in production, in front of the camera and behind it, that is a
:21:44. > :21:47.really important issue. That is a wider issue being raised. What we
:21:48. > :21:51.have heard is that this will not necessarily change the game. We
:21:52. > :21:56.should not always have actors necessarily playing roles that match
:21:57. > :22:00.the ethnic origin they are from. What do you think of that, we will
:22:01. > :22:07.end up with the cultural apartheid? I think it comes down to the wider
:22:08. > :22:12.picture. It is about conscious casting, as opposed to colour-blind
:22:13. > :22:15.casting. If decisions to cast are very well thought through, if you
:22:16. > :22:21.want to have an all-white cast, if you want to have men playing women,
:22:22. > :22:26.whatever your decision as a maker, an artist, as a cultural instigator,
:22:27. > :22:30.have faith in the story you're telling and the people you're
:22:31. > :22:34.working with. So I can be clear, are you saying that if we have roles at
:22:35. > :22:40.the moment that you have to match whatever the character was written
:22:41. > :22:44.in, do you see what saying? White actors can only play definitive
:22:45. > :22:51.white rolls? I would say that the problem is we are not on a level
:22:52. > :22:59.playing field. Because there are not opportunities for people of colour
:23:00. > :23:02.in the media anyway, enough opportunities, we are historically
:23:03. > :23:08.erased. To erase you even further. Yes, it is kind of like billing. In
:23:09. > :23:14.the future, if everyone is equal in society and on screen, thin enough,
:23:15. > :23:17.play whoever you want. We do have examples in history, Laurence
:23:18. > :23:23.Olivier, let's say, he famously black dog to play Othello. It was
:23:24. > :23:28.well received. Would it be well received today? Interestingly, I
:23:29. > :23:31.thought about this before coming on the programme. I also thought about
:23:32. > :23:39.Paul Robson, who played the same part. Of the two performances, I
:23:40. > :23:42.think Paul Robson's is the more credible. We have to respect the
:23:43. > :23:49.fact that Laurence Olivier's performance was of its time. This is
:23:50. > :23:52.a creative process and a film involves the suspension of
:23:53. > :23:56.disbelief. The better that suspension is, the more effective
:23:57. > :24:02.the actor is working. The other way, could you have a white actor play
:24:03. > :24:05.Martin Luther King? Giving the historical, iconic nature of Martin
:24:06. > :24:10.Luther King, probably not, but you could have an actor creating a peace
:24:11. > :24:16.where there are no black characters in it, but it is based upon the life
:24:17. > :24:18.of Martin Luther King. That could happen. It is an interesting
:24:19. > :24:43.discussion. If you wanted to cast a white actor to play Martin Luther
:24:44. > :24:46.King, I would be like, why do you want to do that? Are you making a
:24:47. > :24:48.point? What about at Asian actor? It is the politics behind it. The
:24:49. > :24:50.reasons matter. The actress Chloe Bennett said she had to change her
:24:51. > :24:52.last name from Wang because Hollywood is racist. Has that been
:24:53. > :24:55.your experience, or the experience of friends? It works both ways. I
:24:56. > :24:57.have definitely been employed because of my skin colour. Have you
:24:58. > :24:59.been stereotyped because of how they think you should be playing a
:25:00. > :25:06.certain role? Speaking with a Chinese accent. You are Asian, you
:25:07. > :25:12.can do it, I general Asian accent. Always playing the prostitute, the
:25:13. > :25:17.woman who gets killed, or on the flip side, the very sort of Bijan
:25:18. > :25:22.doctor, lawyer, etc. Of course, these people exist in real life. We
:25:23. > :25:27.need writers to be writing more broadly. Absolutely. That was your
:25:28. > :25:32.point. Yes, I think that companies such as HBO and some of the digital
:25:33. > :25:36.content makers are less worried. We're going to talk afterwards on
:25:37. > :25:38.Facebook. We will keep this conversation going. I am sorry we
:25:39. > :25:40.have to leave it there. For ten years, Canon Andrew White
:25:41. > :25:43.presided over the only In a Muslim city riven by strife
:25:44. > :25:46.and violence, being a Christian Canon White often had to wear
:25:47. > :25:55.a bullet proof vest to go about his Despite coping with the effects
:25:56. > :26:00.of multiple sclerosis, he threw himself into his role
:26:01. > :26:03.in the perilous surroundings of the Iraqi capital and became known
:26:04. > :26:05.as the Vicar of Baghdad. In 2014, he was recalled by
:26:06. > :26:08.the Archbishop of Canterbury for his Martin Bashir, the BBC's religious
:26:09. > :26:23.affairs correspondent, What attracted you to the only
:26:24. > :26:28.church in a war-torn city in the most volatile region of the world? I
:26:29. > :26:35.wanted to be an Iraq because that is where my heart was. I had spent so
:26:36. > :26:43.much time there, even in the days of Saddam Hussein, working between
:26:44. > :26:48.Sunni Muslims, Shia Muslims, the Yazidi and the Christians. The fact
:26:49. > :26:53.is, I am a bit of a conflict junkie. There is nothing I like more than
:26:54. > :27:01.being where things are really difficult. And to actually take God
:27:02. > :27:06.into the middle of conflict and disaster is a sign of hope. You
:27:07. > :27:13.faced yourself many personal challenges. You contracted multiple
:27:14. > :27:16.sclerosis 19 years ago. It must be a very challenging experience,
:27:17. > :27:24.especially working in a place like Iraq? Can are they honest with you?
:27:25. > :27:30.I have never once looked at myself and thought, oh, dear, how do I cope
:27:31. > :27:36.like this? I look at myself and I say, thank you, Lord. Despite having
:27:37. > :27:49.a shoddy body, I can still keep going. What was the cost to you and
:27:50. > :27:52.the church? How dangerous was it? After the 2003 conflict, that is
:27:53. > :28:00.when the trouble really started. They removed Saddam Hussein, and the
:28:01. > :28:05.allowed in violence, tension, terrorist conflict like never
:28:06. > :28:10.before. People would literally, we would find them sleeping on the
:28:11. > :28:21.streets and they had not eaten. They could not go to their homes, their
:28:22. > :28:26.homes had been blown up. So many people, murdered, over 1057 of them,
:28:27. > :28:30.my people that I knew about. I wonder if you could describe the
:28:31. > :28:37.day-to-day experience, the dangers of living in Iraq? Are people used
:28:38. > :28:44.to have to be searched from head to toe every time they came into
:28:45. > :28:50.church. It was a life surrounded by fear. We were threatened all the
:28:51. > :28:54.time. There are not many clergymen in the world to have done the Paris
:28:55. > :29:00.visiting surrounded by armed soldiers. There was another
:29:01. > :29:08.horrendous experience for you when you were taken hostage. I was
:29:09. > :29:15.kidnapped. It was the only time in my whole ministry when I was scared.
:29:16. > :29:22.Did you begin to think that the end of your life was approaching?
:29:23. > :29:26.Absolutely. I really did not think I would survive it. My money
:29:27. > :29:34.eventually got me out. You paid them? Do you believe that there is a
:29:35. > :29:42.deliberate attempt to wipe out to the church in Iraq? Not just Iraq,
:29:43. > :29:48.but the whole middle east. Most of the Muslims who I know intimately
:29:49. > :29:54.are peaceful, but there is less than 1% who are not, and they are causing
:29:55. > :30:01.havoc and turmoil, and we cannot deny that. Was there an occasion
:30:02. > :30:09.when you invited the terrorist to top? There was an occasion when I
:30:10. > :30:14.heard, really decided, how on earth am I going to engage with these
:30:15. > :30:22.people? My theory has always been, when we meet, we eat. I invited Isis
:30:23. > :30:26.around for dinner. They said, yes, but we will chop your head off
:30:27. > :30:31.afterwards. I did not take it any further. Was it a mistake to talk to
:30:32. > :30:43.so-called Islamic State? I would not say it was a mistake. I
:30:44. > :30:46.would say it is the fundamental of our work. Sitting in Golders Green
:30:47. > :30:52.and having smoked salmon bagels does not bring about peace. You were
:30:53. > :30:55.eventually ordered by the Archbishop of Canterbury to stop living
:30:56. > :31:05.permanently in Baghdad. How difficult was that for you? It was
:31:06. > :31:09.the most difficult day of my life. It was the most difficult, painful
:31:10. > :31:20.day ever. So what shape as your ministry taken now? My key focus is
:31:21. > :31:27.my people who were in Iraq with me who have fled and have run away and
:31:28. > :31:36.are in Jordan. We are providing a future for the children and an
:31:37. > :31:42.education and a way forward. A very large part of my work is going
:31:43. > :31:49.around the world teaching people about how enemies need to become
:31:50. > :31:55.friends and how we need to work together as Jewish people,
:31:56. > :31:59.Christians and Muslims. It is no good just looking at them and saying
:32:00. > :32:07.they are the other. The other is my family. The other are my friends. It
:32:08. > :32:11.sounds as though you are now an ambassador for peace. Would that be
:32:12. > :32:19.a fair description? It is very biblical. Jesus has called us to be
:32:20. > :32:25.ambassadors of reconciliation, and that is what I do.
:32:26. > :32:27.Canon Andrew White, still as feisty as ever.
:32:28. > :32:31.To be precise, the amount of money paid to top bosses
:32:32. > :32:35.Britain's biggest firms were told by the government this week
:32:36. > :32:38.that they will have to reveal the pay ratio between senior
:32:39. > :32:42.A recent report on the top 100 companies on the stock market
:32:43. > :32:44.revealed that for every ?1 an average worker earns, the chief
:32:45. > :32:52.So is such a huge gap unfair or do big bosses deserve big money?
:32:53. > :32:55.Joining me now are Jamie Whyte from the Institute
:32:56. > :32:58.of Economic Affairs, Afua Hirsch, a writer
:32:59. > :33:02.and broadcaster, Sam Bowman from the Adam Smith Institute,
:33:03. > :33:07.and still with us Dawn Foster, a journalist and broadcaster.
:33:08. > :33:15.Sam, how pleased should we be that the government is trying to crack
:33:16. > :33:19.down on executive pay? Huge amounts of money that top bosses are
:33:20. > :33:23.getting. We should think about it by wondering if they are paid more than
:33:24. > :33:28.they are worth to the firms. We can look at this by seeing what happens
:33:29. > :33:33.to the value of a firm one a top CEO leaves. When the visionary CEO of
:33:34. > :33:39.burglary left that company a few years ago, they lost half a billion
:33:40. > :33:44.pounds in value. -- Burberry. When Tesco CEO announced he was spending
:33:45. > :33:50.more time at the company, they gained ?2 billion in value. When a
:33:51. > :33:56.CEO departs suddenly, the movement on the market has grown and grown.
:33:57. > :34:01.Why is that? It looks like markets that are dominated by tech and
:34:02. > :34:03.highly competitive ones because of globalisation, the strategic
:34:04. > :34:07.decisions made by the chief executive matter a lot to that
:34:08. > :34:14.firm's value. If that is the case, it makes perfect sense for a firm to
:34:15. > :34:17.pay top dollar to get the best people. They are responsible for so
:34:18. > :34:24.much in the company say we should pay top dollar. I think the value of
:34:25. > :34:28.a CEO is overstated often. They live in a distorted bubble at the top. We
:34:29. > :34:33.are constantly told that to incentivise people into work, we
:34:34. > :34:36.should cut benefits etc. Full the very poorest we are told that less
:34:37. > :34:40.money will incentivise them but for the rich, after the financial crash,
:34:41. > :34:45.we were talking about banker bonuses etc. I think that is an issue. If
:34:46. > :34:51.you look at the pay ratios, if you look at a company where the lowest
:34:52. > :34:55.paid workers, the average paid worker, and the relatively standard
:34:56. > :35:02.ratio of ten or 15 times as much as the CEO, compared to somebody where
:35:03. > :35:07.for every ?1 that the cleaner earns, the CEO earns ?350, you are looking
:35:08. > :35:12.at a company that does not value equality. And in those companies,
:35:13. > :35:16.the morale will not be good. Isn't it ridiculous to compare the cleaner
:35:17. > :35:21.to the CEO? Of course the CEO will be paid more. Yes, but that much
:35:22. > :35:25.more? It is about valuing human life more. We are talking about 48
:35:26. > :35:29.million to the highest paid director. Does anyone need that kind
:35:30. > :35:33.of money? It is not a matter of whether they need it. The amount
:35:34. > :35:39.they get paid is not dependent on how much they need. It is dependent
:35:40. > :35:44.on... It is a price. The price of labour which always depend on two
:35:45. > :35:47.things, supply and demand. Many people think that the owners of
:35:48. > :35:51.these companies are making a mistake by paying such a large sum of money
:35:52. > :35:57.but it is their mistake and they bear the cost of it. It is really
:35:58. > :36:01.not proper, it is immoral, for third parties to try to interfere in what
:36:02. > :36:07.is an entirely voluntary transaction between on the one hand the owners
:36:08. > :36:10.and the other hand the management. I would disagree that only the owners
:36:11. > :36:15.of the company pay the cost. I think we all pay a cost in society when
:36:16. > :36:20.the market for executive pay is so broken. This is not a radical thing
:36:21. > :36:24.to say. If you listen to Theresa May a year ago before the watered-down
:36:25. > :36:26.proposals claiming now, she described the corporate system of
:36:27. > :36:30.awarding people at the top as broken and that is why she proposed quite
:36:31. > :36:36.radical measures like having workers represented on boards. It can't be
:36:37. > :36:41.that mad because she has watered them down. She has listened to the
:36:42. > :36:44.business lobby. Our companies are not fulfilling the role they should
:36:45. > :36:47.in a capitalist system. We still have chronic problems with
:36:48. > :36:54.productivity compared to the rest of the OECD. Our businesses are not
:36:55. > :36:58.able to train and provide jobs for school leavers and graduates, which
:36:59. > :37:02.is why immigration has become such a political flash point. We need to
:37:03. > :37:06.look at the role that companies play in society and ask why the link
:37:07. > :37:13.between performance, which are still got so many problems, and pay, it
:37:14. > :37:17.seems to be so broken. Anna has got and now we have got another guest.
:37:18. > :37:20.Joining me now is Kate Bell, head of the Economic
:37:21. > :37:22.and Social Affairs Department at the Trades Union Congress.
:37:23. > :37:27.I just like to read this comment coming in. People should be able to
:37:28. > :37:31.learn what they are able to get at what they deserve. It is not by
:37:32. > :37:35.business what my boss ends. It doesn't affect her at all what the
:37:36. > :37:40.top boss does or doesn't get? I think it probably does affect the
:37:41. > :37:43.success of her company because we have got widespread evidence that in
:37:44. > :37:46.companies with wider pay disparities, bigger gaps between the
:37:47. > :37:51.top and the average worker, that company is less successful over the
:37:52. > :37:54.long-term. A lot of employees say it does affect their motivation. The
:37:55. > :37:59.survey a couple of years ago said that six out of ten employees found
:38:00. > :38:02.the overly high pay off their CEO affected them admission at work.
:38:03. > :38:06.Isn't that a convenient excuse for why they might not be enjoying their
:38:07. > :38:10.job? Seriously when they sit at their desk, their tail, wherever
:38:11. > :38:15.they are, they are thinking the man a woman at the top of this company
:38:16. > :38:19.owns so much more than me that I can't be bothered today? If you are
:38:20. > :38:22.asking that person to stay a bit later, to do a bit extra, and they
:38:23. > :38:27.are thinking my boss ends in 2.5 days what I heard all year, that
:38:28. > :38:34.might affect your ability to go the extra mile. -- what I earn all year.
:38:35. > :38:37.Could you argue that it is inspirational and aspirational? That
:38:38. > :38:40.person at the top of the company until this money and I will work
:38:41. > :38:46.extra hard to climb the tree? I think it makes the top of the tree
:38:47. > :38:50.look further away. If that person is earning 129 times your average pay,
:38:51. > :38:56.it is very unlikely that you think next year maybe they will earn 128
:38:57. > :39:01.times and the year after 127 times. As Afua Hirsch was saying, the
:39:02. > :39:05.system does not work for British business or workers. British workers
:39:06. > :39:07.have seen their pay falling in the last four months, and something is
:39:08. > :39:11.clearly going wrong there, and we have had a productivity freeze for
:39:12. > :39:16.the last ten years in the UK. It is difficult to say that this model is
:39:17. > :39:22.working for the British economy or British businesses either. Thank
:39:23. > :39:24.you. A system that is not working for business or workers. Why can't
:39:25. > :39:29.we just put a limit on how much these people are earning? There is
:39:30. > :39:33.something slightly weird about a bunch of journalists and economists
:39:34. > :39:39.sitting about talking about how to boost company profits. I don't know
:39:40. > :39:42.how, that is the company's job. But productivity is lower. We don't
:39:43. > :39:45.build houses where they need to be so people cannot move to whether
:39:46. > :39:49.good jobs are and we tax investment more than we need to and we have
:39:50. > :39:52.chronic long-term underinvestment in research and element in this
:39:53. > :39:56.country. It is not because of high CEO pay, because if that was the
:39:57. > :39:59.case, other countries like the US would have the same problem. But in
:40:00. > :40:05.Germany, they do have regulations, and it is not a problem. A more
:40:06. > :40:09.important point that I want to make. One of the reasons why Germany
:40:10. > :40:13.manages to be quite productive if they have decentralised wage
:40:14. > :40:17.bargaining. This isn't me. The widespread consensus is that
:40:18. > :40:22.flexible labour markets plus major strength during the recession has
:40:23. > :40:25.allowed Germany to prosper now. The important point to make is that it
:40:26. > :40:28.is strange to focus on pay ratios because it means that the CEO of
:40:29. > :40:34.Goldman Sachs looks better than the CEO of Sainsbury's because Goldman
:40:35. > :40:38.Sachs and their average employees are paid much more than average a
:40:39. > :40:45.breeze at Tesco. There is something very weird going on. If only these
:40:46. > :40:49.laws work imposed, the suggestion is, and the pay of CEOs was lower,
:40:50. > :40:53.then that these would be more profitable. If that was true, give
:40:54. > :40:57.that advice to the boards of the companies, they would lower the pay,
:40:58. > :40:59.and the idea that this money is left on the table, and the government
:41:00. > :41:04.would force companies to be more profitable, is implausible. If it
:41:05. > :41:08.was not profitable, some firms would lower the pay of their top bosses
:41:09. > :41:12.and they would put the other firms that are paying these bosses a lot
:41:13. > :41:17.of money out of business, but they don't. That is capitalism, isn't it?
:41:18. > :41:21.It is. And the problem is that at the moment capitalism isn't working.
:41:22. > :41:25.If it made sense to do it, they would do it and they are not. I
:41:26. > :41:34.don't think they necessarily would. Even at the top like their wages. --
:41:35. > :41:38.people at the top like their wages. We are talking about business as
:41:39. > :41:41.though it acts in a vacuum and not in society. The CEO of Tesco is paid
:41:42. > :41:44.much more than the people at the very bottom, so those people have
:41:45. > :41:48.got to go to the government for housing benefit and tax credits, and
:41:49. > :41:52.so we are subsidising the low pay of people working in companies very
:41:53. > :41:56.thick it is have got a lot of money. Money is not finite, it is going to
:41:57. > :42:01.the CEOs, and we are picking up the bill in society. I don't think
:42:02. > :42:04.anyone is sitting here saying that economists and journalists should be
:42:05. > :42:08.setting corporate pay. What we are saying is that the process is not
:42:09. > :42:11.working properly and it needs to be regulated and that is why there is a
:42:12. > :42:15.suggestion for having employees represented on boards and this isn't
:42:16. > :42:19.radical. Other countries do it. It's a process that more integrity, then
:42:20. > :42:23.what ever companies set as executive pay would be more efficient. It is
:42:24. > :42:26.allowing market forces within companies to work properly. Thank
:42:27. > :42:29.you very much to everyone on the panel.
:42:30. > :42:31.All children love the summer holidays.
:42:32. > :42:33.But for one group of youngsters from Eastern Europe,
:42:34. > :42:35.their trip to the UK has been particularly welcome.
:42:36. > :42:37.That's because they come from an area near the site
:42:38. > :42:40.of a disaster that made headlines around the world.
:42:41. > :42:53.You wouldn't have thought playing in the fresh air in the park was a big
:42:54. > :42:57.deal for most kids. But for 11-year-old Elena it is a really
:42:58. > :43:01.special treat. She is one of a group of 12 children who have come to
:43:02. > :43:04.spend a month in the UK from their home in Belarus, the Eastern
:43:05. > :43:09.European state near Chernobyl where the world's worst nuclear accident
:43:10. > :43:16.happened in 1986. Two explosions here on April 26 led to the world's
:43:17. > :43:20.worst nuclear disaster. 31 people have already died. Fast tracks of
:43:21. > :43:23.Ukrainian farmland like contaminated and the effect on Chernobyl's
:43:24. > :43:29.community will be felt for generations. The power plant was
:43:30. > :43:32.then in the USSR and the accident led to widespread nuclear
:43:33. > :43:39.contamination, significant traces of which will remain. Elena is staying
:43:40. > :43:43.with Claire and Dave, a retired couple who live near Edinburgh. Even
:43:44. > :43:47.though the Chernobyl disaster happened more than 20 years before
:43:48. > :43:58.she was born, Elena knows what happened. Tell me what you know
:43:59. > :44:06.about Chernobyl. It is a city in the Ukraine and in the city was an
:44:07. > :44:10.explosion that the power station. Elena and the other youngsters are
:44:11. > :44:25.spending their month in the UK thanks to the charity Friends Of
:44:26. > :44:29.Chernobyl's Children Will. Dave and Claire's linguistic skills are about
:44:30. > :44:35.as good as mine! How is your Russian? We don't speak any Russian.
:44:36. > :44:42.Just one word, thank you! Just about the same. How do you manage to
:44:43. > :44:48.communicate with Elena? Well, sign language, pointing at things, miming
:44:49. > :44:52.things, and if we are really struggling the Google translate
:44:53. > :44:58.function helps. Give me an example of the things you are miming. Time
:44:59. > :45:09.to brush your teeth. And for food, good, not good and in between. Do
:45:10. > :45:13.you like Elena? Good! -- do you like chocolate, Elena? Good! At the UK
:45:14. > :45:18.they're getting fresh air and plenty of fun. From the beginning of the
:45:19. > :45:25.visit to the end, facially, in their colour, their skin, their eyes
:45:26. > :45:29.brighter, and the months of healthy food, clean air and environment
:45:30. > :45:30.makes a difference to them in this growing stage of development between
:45:31. > :45:41.seven and 12. They love to come to parks. There
:45:42. > :45:47.are not many at home in Belarus. They love to run and jump and claim.
:45:48. > :45:54.It is wonderful to see them having a good time. Tell me two things that
:45:55. > :45:59.you love about living here? TRANSLATION: They love me and I love
:46:00. > :46:15.them. How do you say love in Russian? SHE SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN. The
:46:16. > :46:19.project is coordinated by Kenny Turnbull, who makes regular visits
:46:20. > :46:23.to Belarus and who has met the child's family. In the villages,
:46:24. > :46:28.they live with outside toilets and a cap in the street for water. There
:46:29. > :46:33.is no water in the house? None whatsoever. You may have to walk
:46:34. > :46:40.about 50 metres to the tap to get water. Even in the snow? In the
:46:41. > :46:45.snow. He has been to her house many times. She lives in a government
:46:46. > :46:51.hostel. This is her coming out to meet us on one of our visits, giving
:46:52. > :46:56.us a hug on the steps. This is her mum. They look like each other. You
:46:57. > :47:01.can see the resemblance. Mum keeps the room very well. She is a very
:47:02. > :47:05.responsible lady. The effect of the explosion and irradiation is a major
:47:06. > :47:12.concern for the families near Chernobyl. Before Chernobyl, 85% of
:47:13. > :47:17.the children in Belarus were classed as healthy. After Chernobyl, 85% of
:47:18. > :47:21.children in the contaminated areas are classed as unhealthy. The
:47:22. > :47:26.children we bring are not ill in themselves, but they do have lowered
:47:27. > :47:29.immune systems, so they are more susceptible to infection. The
:47:30. > :47:35.lowered immune system is brought about by constant exposure to levels
:47:36. > :47:38.of radiation that are above what they should be. It is too easy to
:47:39. > :47:44.forget that these things have happened and they have long-lasting
:47:45. > :47:47.implications and the Mandera home environments. We in the West can
:47:48. > :47:53.forget about it because we are not living with it day to day, but they
:47:54. > :47:57.are living with it every day. But, for a short time at least, these
:47:58. > :48:05.children are having a break from the home environment. She is making the
:48:06. > :48:08.most of it. Is it time for bed now? Universal.
:48:09. > :48:11.Those children seemed to be having a rare old
:48:12. > :48:15.Statues, buildings and streets honouring famous figures
:48:16. > :48:18.are peppered throughout cities and towns in the UK.
:48:19. > :48:20.But do we want to commemorate them all?
:48:21. > :48:24.In the southern states of America, many statues of prominent pro-
:48:25. > :48:26.slavery American Civil War leaders are being removed for being
:48:27. > :48:39.Right wing groups, such as the Ku Klux Klan,
:48:40. > :48:40.have staged protests leading to violence,
:48:41. > :48:42.including the death of a young woman in
:48:43. > :48:47.Here, questions are being asked about memorials to people
:48:48. > :49:03.Britain's colonial past, including a statue of the businessman
:49:04. > :49:05.Cecil Rhodes at Oxford University, and another in Bristol to
:49:06. > :49:08.Edward Colston, who played a prominent role in the slave trade.
:49:09. > :49:11.Even Nelson's Column in London has been labeled as a symbol of
:49:12. > :49:14.white supremacy because of the naval hero's support for the
:49:15. > :49:21.So should these and monuments and others like them be torn
:49:22. > :49:24.down or should they be preserved as a significant part of our
:49:25. > :49:28.Joining me now are James Heartfield, an author and historian,
:49:29. > :49:31.Cleo Lake, a writer and activist, Neil Wallis, former deputy
:49:32. > :49:33.editor of the News Of The World, and still with us, Afua
:49:34. > :49:44.Let's start with you. You have written an article. You started this
:49:45. > :49:49.debate. You wrote the article talking about removing the statue of
:49:50. > :49:53.Lord Nelson. You came in for quite a lot of criticism. Do you understand
:49:54. > :49:57.that criticism? I do, but it reinforces the point I was trying to
:49:58. > :50:02.make, which is that we in Britain have not been honest about our past.
:50:03. > :50:07.We have avoided the more difficult episodes in Britain's past, like the
:50:08. > :50:25.slave trade and the Empire. Many people walk around looking at
:50:26. > :50:29.statues like Nelson, who is elevated, and a position where we
:50:30. > :50:31.train our necks and admiration, without knowing that these people
:50:32. > :50:33.played a role in some of the darkest parts of our history. Those
:50:34. > :50:36.historical moments are with us today. Millions around the world are
:50:37. > :50:39.living out the repercussions of the slave trade. So you would pull
:50:40. > :50:41.Nelson Cole and on? I would not go with the bulldozer after the show
:50:42. > :50:44.and pull it down. -- so you would pull down Nelson's column? Many
:50:45. > :50:48.people like me are British and also black and have strong links to
:50:49. > :50:55.African and Caribbean societies that are still suffering as a result of
:50:56. > :50:58.people like him. We should be able to debate what the legacy has been.
:50:59. > :51:04.It seems like a fair point, if these people were involved in slavery, why
:51:05. > :51:10.are we supporting them? First of all, I think that Afua is saying
:51:11. > :51:13.exactly the right thing. It is legitimate to discuss aspects of our
:51:14. > :51:18.history that we have not discussed before. She is ludicrous when she
:51:19. > :51:25.proposes that we rewrite our history. What she needs to try to
:51:26. > :51:30.remember are several things. First of all, Nelson's column is nothing
:51:31. > :51:37.to do with slavery. It was not put because of any views he had on
:51:38. > :51:41.slavery. Views, incidentally, that I only discovered when I read Afua's
:51:42. > :51:45.the liberty -- deliberately provocative piece. I had no idea
:51:46. > :51:51.that he had a view either way about slavery. At the time, I guess that
:51:52. > :51:56.most people accepted that slavery was a legitimate part of how the
:51:57. > :52:00.world operated, not just here, but throughout Africa and the Middle
:52:01. > :52:06.East. It is a very common thing. The other thing I think is really
:52:07. > :52:12.important, and where this debate has gone so wrong, is the suggestion
:52:13. > :52:18.that if you hold my view, or disagree in any way with Afua, she
:52:19. > :52:25.mentioned this in the green room, I overheard her, that somehow it is
:52:26. > :52:27.racist to disagree. There was a very prominent journalist who wrote the
:52:28. > :52:35.piece in which he disagreed with her. Her reaction to that was, well,
:52:36. > :52:40.that was infused with his racist view. That is simply outrageous. I
:52:41. > :52:47.simply disagree with you, I am not racist. I do not agree. What I want
:52:48. > :52:52.is to prompt the debate, not to shut people down. I think what Neil is
:52:53. > :52:57.referring to is that some of the reaction I got, it had very strong
:52:58. > :53:02.undertones. People said, know your place, go back to where you came
:53:03. > :53:05.from and stop lecturing us. The assumption that I am an immigrant
:53:06. > :53:12.who has an illegitimate view because of how eyelet. I find that racist.
:53:13. > :53:17.One of the points that Neil is that we are judging historical characters
:53:18. > :53:21.by current standards and morals. Most people would not have a blemish
:53:22. > :53:28.free record at that time? They would not. It is not about rewriting
:53:29. > :53:31.history but telling the full story. Educating people, and examining
:53:32. > :53:34.values of today and examining what kind of future we want for our
:53:35. > :53:40.children and grandchildren, future citizens. Really, we have been fed
:53:41. > :53:46.this one-dimensional view of history, which is not accurate. I
:53:47. > :53:49.would not advocate taking down the statues but they need context, they
:53:50. > :53:58.need to be balanced. They need to be countered. I was happy to see the
:53:59. > :54:02.fourth plinth initiative. We had Nelson's ship. That was a good way
:54:03. > :54:07.of balancing it and opening up a wider debate. We need to have more
:54:08. > :54:12.memorials, more commemorations to the victims of enslavement, and to
:54:13. > :54:18.acknowledge the massive contribution they have given the world.
:54:19. > :54:22.It is about education. You are part of a movement in Bristol which led
:54:23. > :54:29.to the concert hall in Bristol agreeing to change its name. Why is
:54:30. > :54:33.that important. It is a name. Statues are symbols. Education in
:54:34. > :54:39.classrooms is the important thing, surely? Education for people of all
:54:40. > :54:44.ages is key. Dialogue is important. It is not about shutting people down
:54:45. > :54:47.but getting to know each other's stories and having empathy. What
:54:48. > :54:52.we're seeing among some of these discussions is like of empathy. It
:54:53. > :54:58.was significant that the Holland Bristol chose did is associate
:54:59. > :55:01.itself with Edward Colston. He did lots of great things for people.
:55:02. > :55:06.That is the narrative we have been given which leads to the annual
:55:07. > :55:09.celebration of this person, which completely ignores and insults the
:55:10. > :55:15.memory and history of my ancestors and many more people. People of all
:55:16. > :55:24.backgrounds are offended by this commemoration of this person. Only
:55:25. > :55:28.last week in Bristol, we had a memorial, and artistic intervention,
:55:29. > :55:33.which commemorated a person enslaved, brought from Nigeria,
:55:34. > :55:39.buried in Bristol, born 250 years ago. That was well attended by
:55:40. > :55:45.people across society. History has not been told correctly in the first
:55:46. > :55:49.place? We talk about Cecil Rhodes, for example? There is a strong lead
:55:50. > :55:53.in the country and the had been for about 30 years for a more critical
:55:54. > :55:59.attitude to Empire and slavery. If you go to museums like the Greenwich
:56:00. > :56:05.Maritime Museum, or you go to the Docklands Museum, you see some very
:56:06. > :56:13.good displays about slavery, and telling the slavery story. I have
:56:14. > :56:19.two daughters who have been doing the GCSEs and starting their
:56:20. > :56:26.A-levels. Happy birthday, Daisy. They have had a lot of lessons. What
:56:27. > :56:32.about statues, education maybe, but should we be taking down statues? I
:56:33. > :56:40.do not like them all that much. Would you change them? There are
:56:41. > :56:45.many around Britain. I like quite Afua is said and I like what Cleo is
:56:46. > :56:50.saying. More discussion is right. Instead of pinning it down, taking
:56:51. > :56:55.it down is an extreme response. Sometimes an extreme responses
:56:56. > :57:03.right. The best way to better memorials would be to have more
:57:04. > :57:09.heroes. Claudia Jones started the Notting Hill Carnival as a memorial
:57:10. > :57:14.to Kelso Cochrane. That is a living memorial that is more effective than
:57:15. > :57:20.any statue. Afua, it is about education? It is about context. If
:57:21. > :57:25.we all learned in history about the hugely significant figures in
:57:26. > :57:28.Britain, who basically invented and pioneered the slave trade and
:57:29. > :57:31.colonialism for four centuries, I would be more comfortable that when
:57:32. > :57:37.we look at someone like Nelson, we have context. This is not a
:57:38. > :57:42.race-based crusade. Many Irish Catholics feel that Oliver Cromwell
:57:43. > :57:45.was the first genocidal figure in British history and they are deeply
:57:46. > :57:49.uncomfortable with the statue outside the British Parliament that
:57:50. > :57:52.commemorates him. This goes a lot deeper than people like me playing a
:57:53. > :57:56.race card. Let's find out what people at home
:57:57. > :58:02.nursing. This feels like historical cleansing to me. We may not like
:58:03. > :58:07.what these figures have done in the past, but the best way is to learn
:58:08. > :58:11.and not repeat the mistakes. Perhaps we need to shut down the Viking
:58:12. > :58:14.Museum in York, as the Vikings were some of the biggest slave owners
:58:15. > :58:15.ever. Thank you and thank you to all our
:58:16. > :58:17.panellists. Many thanks to all our
:58:18. > :58:21.guests and you at home But Emma will be carrying
:58:22. > :58:24.on the conversation online. I'm no' a beat, broken man,
:58:25. > :58:50.but I'm damaged, Hear four traumatic stories
:58:51. > :58:54.of the struggle to they thought they would find
:58:55. > :58:55.freedom on their release. I'm no' a beat, broken man,
:58:56. > :58:59.but I'm damaged,