0:00:07 > 0:00:08Welcome to Sunday Morning Live.
0:00:08 > 0:00:10I'm Sean Fletcher.
0:00:10 > 0:00:19On today's programme: As fighters for so-called Islamic State
0:00:19 > 0:00:22filter back into the UK, we ask how tough should we be
0:00:22 > 0:00:23on British jihadists?
0:00:23 > 0:00:24Unpaid internships and zero-hours contracts.
0:00:24 > 0:00:26Are young people being exploited at work?
0:00:26 > 0:00:29And singer Russell Watson, starring in a new musical about Adam and Eve,
0:00:29 > 0:00:33tells us how to sound like God.
0:00:33 > 0:00:39Well, sometimes he can be very quiet. And then of course there is
0:00:39 > 0:00:41the booming angry voice.
0:00:41 > 0:00:45All that coming up and Emma Barnett is here ready to sample your views.
0:00:45 > 0:00:46Morning, Emma.
0:00:46 > 0:00:47Morning, Sean.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49We want you to be part of our debates.
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0:01:09 > 0:01:12Jewish families are being encouraged to respect the Sabbath
0:01:12 > 0:01:15and a new poll suggests that an increasing number of Christians
0:01:15 > 0:01:18don't keep Sunday special.
0:01:18 > 0:01:26Is it time to claim back the day of rest?
0:01:26 > 0:01:29And Mehreen Baig explores forest bathing, a new way to de-stress.
0:01:29 > 0:01:36It is actually quite nice.
0:01:39 > 0:01:44As the so-called Islamic State crumbles in Syria and Iraq,
0:01:44 > 0:01:48security forces are concerned about what risk those who fought
0:01:48 > 0:01:51or are still fighting for the extremist organisation present.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54Foreign Office minister Rory Stewart caused headlines earlier this week
0:01:54 > 0:01:57when he said that the only way of dealing with fighters
0:01:57 > 0:01:59on the ground will be, in almost every case,
0:01:59 > 0:02:01to kill them.
0:02:01 > 0:02:05But what about those who return here?
0:02:05 > 0:02:09Around half of the estimated 850 people from the UK who went out
0:02:09 > 0:02:11to support the jihadists are thought to be back already.
0:02:11 > 0:02:15How tough should we be on British jihadists?
0:02:15 > 0:02:19Joining us now to give their views are Chris Phillips, former head
0:02:19 > 0:02:23of the National Counter Terrorism Security Office, Yasmine Ahmed,
0:02:23 > 0:02:26director of Rights Watch UK, Sirena Bergman, a journalist,
0:02:26 > 0:02:31and Luke Gittos, a lawyer and a writer.
0:02:31 > 0:02:35These are British citizens we are talking about. Shouldn't we be
0:02:35 > 0:02:39giving them a second chance?They are not British citizens. They have
0:02:39 > 0:02:42elected to join a fighting foreign force and I think we need to
0:02:42 > 0:02:45recognise that we are at war with Islamic State. They have elected to
0:02:45 > 0:02:51go to war not just against us but against our values. I think there
0:02:51 > 0:02:54are problems with denying them British citizenship but to call them
0:02:54 > 0:02:57British citizens and to assume that they are entitled to the same due
0:02:57 > 0:03:04process protections as you and I is completely bizarre. It is completely
0:03:04 > 0:03:07strange that politicians are obsessed with due process. British
0:03:07 > 0:03:11citizens who have been accused of terrorism in the past have had their
0:03:11 > 0:03:14civil liberties stripped away from them for years and it is only now
0:03:14 > 0:03:17when we start talking about blowing up people who have demonstrably gone
0:03:17 > 0:03:21to fight for a foreign army, that we are talking about due process. I
0:03:21 > 0:03:25think this moment is very strange and it speaks to moral cowardice. If
0:03:25 > 0:03:31you have the opportunity to take out foreign fighters, do it.Talking
0:03:31 > 0:03:35about British values, we don't have the death penalty. Why are we
0:03:35 > 0:03:38talking about killing them?There is a clear difference between the death
0:03:38 > 0:03:41penalty and killing someone with whom you are at war and we need to
0:03:41 > 0:03:46make that distinction. Isis are organisation with whom we are at
0:03:46 > 0:03:51war, I repeat, and to apply the same due process protections to foreign
0:03:51 > 0:03:54competitions as we were too is the citizen accused of a crime in this
0:03:54 > 0:04:00country is bizarre. -- as we would to citizens accused of a crime in
0:04:00 > 0:04:03this country is bizarre.We have got to make tough choices, so surely it
0:04:03 > 0:04:08is the right thing to do?The first thing to say is it is a convex issue
0:04:08 > 0:04:13and nobody can deny that. It is important to say that as British
0:04:13 > 0:04:17society, we have certain values that we must uphold, and that is what
0:04:17 > 0:04:20distinguishes us from other people. Luke says they are not British
0:04:20 > 0:04:24citizens.They are values that should be universal values and part
0:04:24 > 0:04:27of those values is about transparency and the government
0:04:27 > 0:04:32being transparent and accountable about its policies. What I think
0:04:32 > 0:04:34it's really problematic is the government essentially saying it
0:04:34 > 0:04:39will be very difficult to prosecute these people when they come back to
0:04:39 > 0:04:44the UK. And this is very ambiguous and where we need transparency, so
0:04:44 > 0:04:48potentially we could kill anybody who is supportive of Isis in Syria.
0:04:48 > 0:04:53We have got to leave the door open that people might return. And
0:04:53 > 0:04:57definitely there is prosecution that is an option and other options when
0:04:57 > 0:05:01people return. But we have also got to know that it is incredibly
0:05:01 > 0:05:04important as a society to live up to our own values and one of those
0:05:04 > 0:05:10values is complying with the rule of law. While you are correct that we
0:05:10 > 0:05:13are in a non-international armed conflict with Syria in Iraq, it does
0:05:13 > 0:05:17not mean that anybody there can be killed. When we start losing our own
0:05:17 > 0:05:20values, there is not much to distinguish us. One further point
0:05:20 > 0:05:26out like to make. Constantly within this debate there is this idea that
0:05:26 > 0:05:28national security and human rights are juxtaposition and they cannot
0:05:28 > 0:05:33sit together. But if you look consistently to the past, you will
0:05:33 > 0:05:41see that in fact human rights reinforces security. Security
0:05:41 > 0:05:44Council's counterterrorism committee said that when you take measures
0:05:44 > 0:05:48that are not in line with human rights, it can drive people to
0:05:48 > 0:05:53extremism.So it creates a problem. If southerly has gone to fight for
0:05:53 > 0:05:58so-called Islamic State, they have signed up to a brutal ideology. Some
0:05:58 > 0:06:01people at home will be watching and they will feel that these people
0:06:01 > 0:06:04should not be allowed back in our country.That is a separate issue
0:06:04 > 0:06:08and when I do not agree with either but the idea we would kill them that
0:06:08 > 0:06:13they stem from an ideology that we think is reprehensible leads to a
0:06:13 > 0:06:17slippery slope. We can't decide some people should be stripped of their
0:06:17 > 0:06:19civil liberties purely because we don't agree with the reasons behind
0:06:19 > 0:06:24their crimes.But it is a brutal ideology. We are not just talking
0:06:24 > 0:06:28about criminals here. Serious issues and serious things. And attempting
0:06:28 > 0:06:33to set up a state.That is true. And one of the arguments was that
0:06:33 > 0:06:36terrorist organisations are trying to take us back to a seventh century
0:06:36 > 0:06:39state and they have announced their right to British citizenship. But
0:06:39 > 0:06:42what is it we are doing if we are arguing we should just kill people
0:06:42 > 0:06:46because we think they might have committed crimes that it would be
0:06:46 > 0:06:50difficult to trying them? Surely what we are doing is equally
0:06:50 > 0:06:56regressive and problematic? If we strip those values from people we
0:06:56 > 0:06:58don't agree with, how long before they are stripped from people we
0:06:58 > 0:07:05just don't agree with?The idea that Isis is comparable to any other
0:07:05 > 0:07:09organisation is bizarre.Isis has declared war on western values. The
0:07:09 > 0:07:14sooner we recognise that we should be defending western values and
0:07:14 > 0:07:18violently where necessary, that is a good thing.There are rules in
0:07:18 > 0:07:23international law.There are rules and we should comply with them.By
0:07:23 > 0:07:29killing everyone? Let him finish. Those rules do not prevent us from
0:07:29 > 0:07:32striking Isis fighters, they just don't.I find it personally
0:07:32 > 0:07:37effective that it is a western value to strip people of civil liberties
0:07:37 > 0:07:40and killed them simply because their crimes in your judgment are worse
0:07:40 > 0:07:46than other people's.Of course Isis's crimes are worse than other
0:07:46 > 0:07:50people's. It is bizarre to me that I have got to convince people that
0:07:50 > 0:07:54Isis with killing.That is bizarre. Chris is a former counterterrorism
0:07:54 > 0:07:59officer. You might think it is easier to stop worrying about these
0:07:59 > 0:08:03people. Is it right to kill them before they get here?Absolutely.
0:08:03 > 0:08:07The thing about the internet is nobody went to join Isis without
0:08:07 > 0:08:11knowing exactly what they were up to. They were up for killing people,
0:08:11 > 0:08:15throwing people off blocks of flats, beheading people, setting people on
0:08:15 > 0:08:19fire. They went to join an organisation into mass murder.But
0:08:19 > 0:08:25these are young people who may have been groomed.That is their choice.
0:08:25 > 0:08:29They have chosen to go to a place putting themselves in danger, a war
0:08:29 > 0:08:35zone. If they die over there, so be it. What we need to be careful of
0:08:35 > 0:08:40here is pontificating about the difficulties of prosecuting and the
0:08:40 > 0:08:42enormous difficulties of actually finding out what has happened in
0:08:42 > 0:08:47Syria. It will take generations to find out who committed crimes. In
0:08:47 > 0:08:51the meantime we are talking about allowing people back to our country
0:08:51 > 0:08:57to live next door to you, who may have committed mass murder. And we
0:08:57 > 0:09:00have got to be aware that terrorism is not going to go away. This will
0:09:00 > 0:09:05be with us for generations to come. We will talk about the implications
0:09:05 > 0:09:08of jihadists returning here in a moment but ever had a guest who can
0:09:08 > 0:09:15move this on. -- Emma has a guest.
0:09:15 > 0:09:18With me now is Zahed Ammanullah, who works for an organisation that
0:09:18 > 0:09:20carries out research and analysis to try and develop ways
0:09:20 > 0:09:21to counter extremism.
0:09:21 > 0:09:25What do you think should happen to British citizens who have gone out
0:09:25 > 0:09:28to so-called Islamic State?What is being lost in the discussion is that
0:09:28 > 0:09:33many of these people who are coming back, if we can detain or arrest
0:09:33 > 0:09:38them for assisting Isis, there is a huge opportunity there to find out
0:09:38 > 0:09:41what their radicalisation process was and what we can learn to prevent
0:09:41 > 0:09:46this happening again. Isis might be on the back foot but the phenomenon
0:09:46 > 0:09:53of streamers and will continue and we should understand it. --
0:09:53 > 0:09:58extremism will continue. Why did it resonate with them? We have got to
0:09:58 > 0:10:01be clinically objective about this and really understand what will work
0:10:01 > 0:10:04to prevent other people from succumbing to this in the future.
0:10:04 > 0:10:08What makes you think that they will share that information with you? To
0:10:08 > 0:10:12be clear, do you think they should come back, be prosecuted, and then
0:10:12 > 0:10:17somebody like yourself goes to interview them?Absolutely. Many of
0:10:17 > 0:10:21these people have already committed crimes in terms of assisting a
0:10:21 > 0:10:28terrorist organisation materially. And murder. Of course. Of the
0:10:28 > 0:10:34systems we have, they deserve due process, but if we are able to
0:10:34 > 0:10:37understand their motivations... Anecdotally, a lot of these people
0:10:37 > 0:10:40coming back are disillusioned and they are willing to cooperate. We
0:10:40 > 0:10:45have seen models in other parts of Europe, like Denmark, where this
0:10:45 > 0:10:48process has been tested. A lot of people have given information that
0:10:48 > 0:10:51has been useful in determining how to dissuade other young people in
0:10:51 > 0:10:56the future from going down the same path.That is the process you would
0:10:56 > 0:10:59favour at many people getting in touch think they don't want to go
0:10:59 > 0:11:05down that route. You see it as an opportunity. Even if these people
0:11:05 > 0:11:08are disillusioned, what evidence do you have that they can be
0:11:08 > 0:11:12rehabilitated and they don't just go into the prison system and cause
0:11:12 > 0:11:16more people to become disillusioned and radicalised?We have got the
0:11:16 > 0:11:26process in the UK, like Prevent, who are doing with these issues and
0:11:26 > 0:11:31people who are at risk, and people who are arrested and imprisoned, and
0:11:31 > 0:11:33their rehabilitation programmes taking place where we have seen
0:11:33 > 0:11:39success. The important thing is to learn from this and make sure we
0:11:39 > 0:11:42don't just lock them up and pretend like we don't know why these people
0:11:42 > 0:11:46went down this path. There is a lot of information from a psychological
0:11:46 > 0:11:50standpoint that we need to understand. From our point of view
0:11:50 > 0:11:53as an organisation, we manage a network of form extremists who
0:11:53 > 0:11:57provide resources for us, and we have tested messaging at risk
0:11:57 > 0:12:01individuals using the insight we have gained from these individuals,
0:12:01 > 0:12:05and seen that we can see some positive impact on at risk
0:12:05 > 0:12:08individuals if you use that information to dissuade them.I have
0:12:08 > 0:12:14got to leave it there. Thank you very much. We should see this as an
0:12:14 > 0:12:18opportunity? Very interesting to hear him talking about the cycle of
0:12:18 > 0:12:21recruitment happening again. Luke, an opportunity to learn from
0:12:21 > 0:12:24jihadists returning and we don't want it to happen again.Think about
0:12:24 > 0:12:28what you might stand to learn. These people will be deeply unreliable
0:12:28 > 0:12:33witnesses, as we say in the law. They will have motivation to give
0:12:33 > 0:12:39unreliable information. I am not convinced that we stand to learn an
0:12:39 > 0:12:42enormous amount from someone coming back from a war zone who has
0:12:42 > 0:12:47committed themselves to destroying our values. The idea that that
0:12:47 > 0:12:51learning process should take precedence over taking them out of
0:12:51 > 0:12:55the picture completely betrays a complete moral cowardice.He said
0:12:55 > 0:13:00that history will repeat itself if we don't learn from the situation.
0:13:00 > 0:13:04We need to win the war with Isis first and the idea that we would
0:13:04 > 0:13:08spend our time learning about their psychology before defeating them
0:13:08 > 0:13:12shows bizarre priorities.Chris, how would you assess the risk we face
0:13:12 > 0:13:16from these returning jihadists?You have got to face the fact that we
0:13:16 > 0:13:19cannot stop people coming back. We have been unable to stop people
0:13:19 > 0:13:23coming back. They are already here. Of course we have got to learn from
0:13:23 > 0:13:27them and understand what turned them to that ideology, but also we have
0:13:27 > 0:13:31got to deal with the people who are real threat and the risk these
0:13:31 > 0:13:37people face. We are at the beginning of this terrorism problem. It is not
0:13:37 > 0:13:41going to go away. We are going to have very large-scale terrorist
0:13:41 > 0:13:45attacks, unfortunately.That is going to be the case. So can't we
0:13:45 > 0:13:48learn from these people to stop it happening again?Of course. But what
0:13:48 > 0:13:53do we do with those people who will not be changed? We do not have the
0:13:53 > 0:13:56police and security services to monitor those people who are already
0:13:56 > 0:14:09here, so how can we deal with an influx of more people?
0:14:10 > 0:14:12How big is the risk? Are you worried? I am very worried. I have
0:14:12 > 0:14:15been worried for a long time about the risk of terrorism and
0:14:15 > 0:14:17large-scale vehicle bombs which kill hundreds if not thousands of people.
0:14:17 > 0:14:20We could have seen that just a few weeks ago in Barcelona when they
0:14:20 > 0:14:22intended to make a large vehicle bomb which could have killed
0:14:22 > 0:14:25hundreds if not thousands of people. These things are going to happen
0:14:25 > 0:14:27unfortunately at some stage in our future and we have got to protect
0:14:27 > 0:14:30ourselves and make sure that those people who are the highest risk are
0:14:30 > 0:14:35not allowed to come harm us.There is a balancing between human rights
0:14:35 > 0:14:39and the risk to our country. How do you get that balance right?
0:14:39 > 0:14:42Absolutely that it is interesting that Chris is talking about stopping
0:14:42 > 0:14:48people coming back. Surely we want to do the opposite? People who have
0:14:48 > 0:14:52gone to fight on Isis's behalf, we want them to come back. If they have
0:14:52 > 0:14:56been groomed, if they have been naive in the reasons why they have
0:14:56 > 0:14:58gone, they didn't understand the consequences, we want them to come
0:14:58 > 0:15:02back and we want to encourage them to reintegrate into society. When we
0:15:02 > 0:15:12have divisive rhetoric about kill them all, that is not helpful.But
0:15:12 > 0:15:16they know what they were getting into, we all do.It is easy to say
0:15:16 > 0:15:20that sitting on the sofa. But how people groomed when they are
0:15:20 > 0:15:24vulnerable, perhaps with mental health issues? They may have grown
0:15:24 > 0:15:26up in a world where they don't understand nuances that we can talk
0:15:26 > 0:15:31about. It is easy to say they knew what they were getting into and that
0:15:31 > 0:15:35is the reality.
0:15:35 > 0:15:38When they come back, they will have the same problems and we will have
0:15:38 > 0:15:42to deal with them on the streets and have terrorist attacks.
0:15:42 > 0:15:48Not if we rehabilitate them.Natalie says they should be let back in, the
0:15:48 > 0:15:51British judicial system should throw the whole weight of the law at them
0:15:51 > 0:15:55to show it will not be tolerated. Daniela says we need to stop the
0:15:55 > 0:15:59problem at the beginning, education is key in helping people we seek
0:15:59 > 0:16:13falling under the spell. Peter says they should face treason
0:16:16 > 0:16:18charges, dual nationality, strip them of British nationality, deport
0:16:18 > 0:16:20them back to where they have come from and banned them from coming
0:16:20 > 0:16:22back. Maureen says we cannot treat them
0:16:22 > 0:16:24harshly enough, they are barbaric animals and if they are happy to
0:16:24 > 0:16:27live by the sword they can be happy to die by it. They do not deserve to
0:16:27 > 0:16:30be tried under the British system. Maureen says live by the sword, die
0:16:30 > 0:16:33by the sword. You confident we can find a solution?As I said at the
0:16:33 > 0:16:36beginning it is extremely complex, anybody working in this space needs
0:16:36 > 0:16:39to acknowledge that. We need to acknowledge and be very careful
0:16:39 > 0:16:44about taking very simple narratives on this, because it is very complex.
0:16:44 > 0:16:48Well one reaction is to keep ourselves safe, I think we need to
0:16:48 > 0:16:54realise that forgoing our values and human rights and the rule of law
0:16:54 > 0:16:58will not keep us safe in the long run. When we make these kinds of
0:16:58 > 0:17:03decisions about the policies that the Government will employ to keep
0:17:03 > 0:17:06the British citizens safe, we need to think about not only immediate
0:17:06 > 0:17:13issues but the long run. Certainly we are at war in a
0:17:13 > 0:17:16non-international armed conflict with Isis. That allows those people
0:17:16 > 0:17:20participating in the hostility, it allows us a right to potentially
0:17:20 > 0:17:26kill those people. But what we also need to recognise is that, for
0:17:26 > 0:17:30example, there is territory in Iraq and Syria being taken back over by
0:17:30 > 0:17:33the government and people are potentially surrendering, there are
0:17:33 > 0:17:38opportunities where people say I am no longer here. We just killing
0:17:38 > 0:17:42everyone that? There needs to be a complexity of tools used, one of
0:17:42 > 0:17:46them as people returning. If there is any opportunity to prosecute the
0:17:46 > 0:17:50individuals, they should be. But there needs to be space for
0:17:50 > 0:17:54people to potentially go through de-radicalisation, if that is an
0:17:54 > 0:17:58opportunity that can be taken advantage of.Chris, you painted a
0:17:58 > 0:18:03bleak picture before?I don't disagree with any of that, they are
0:18:03 > 0:18:07people in the battlefield, they should be killed, that is the way of
0:18:07 > 0:18:11the world, unfortunately. When they come back, and they already have, we
0:18:11 > 0:18:16have to deal with them. But legislation in the Western free
0:18:16 > 0:18:20democratic societies does not allow others to deal with people this way
0:18:20 > 0:18:24inclined, it just does not. Even when they go to prison they are
0:18:24 > 0:18:28released very quickly and they are a major threat to society.
0:18:28 > 0:18:30Thank you to the panel, very interesting.
0:18:30 > 0:18:34He started out as a worker in a nuts and bolts factory and ended up
0:18:34 > 0:18:35singing for presidents and the Pope.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38Along the way, Russell Watson picked up the nickname The Voice.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41Now he's playing the voice of God in Heaven on Earth,
0:18:41 > 0:18:42a new musical about Adam and Eve.
0:18:42 > 0:18:45Samanthi Flanagan went to meet Russell to ask him
0:18:45 > 0:18:46about playing the Almighty, and the part faith
0:18:46 > 0:18:53plays in his life.
0:19:04 > 0:19:09Let's go back to the beginning, you started your working life in a nuts
0:19:09 > 0:19:14and bolts factory in Salford, and now you are about to be the voice of
0:19:14 > 0:19:20God, you have come a long way!It is quite a transition!. Everything that
0:19:20 > 0:19:26has happened in my life, with regard to my career, was almost stumbled
0:19:26 > 0:19:35upon. I remember the night I was out with my friends, it was 1990 and it
0:19:35 > 0:19:41was The Railway In, a few pints of beer. Go long, Russell, get up and
0:19:41 > 0:19:47sing!That was a radio talent contest?Yes, next thing I know I
0:19:47 > 0:19:51have won, I am walking into the factory, the shop floor, where I had
0:19:51 > 0:19:56been for eight or nine years, that as it is, I am leaving, I am going
0:19:56 > 0:20:02to be a singer! You had a real nuts and bolts
0:20:02 > 0:20:07training in the working men's clubs of England?I did nine years in the
0:20:07 > 0:20:12working men's clubs, it was a long, hard battle and a slog and a lot of
0:20:12 > 0:20:16the time I felt like I was banging my head against the proverbial brick
0:20:16 > 0:20:18wall and I was not going to get anywhere.
0:20:18 > 0:20:23The big break came when you are asked to sing at a big football
0:20:23 > 0:20:26match, Manchester United, tell me about that.
0:20:26 > 0:20:30To walk out on that her fans look around and hear the crowd on the
0:20:30 > 0:20:36bows, a few weeks before I had been singing in a working men's club to
0:20:36 > 0:20:4930 or 40 people -- to hear the crowd and the buzz.And when-- and when I
0:20:49 > 0:20:55hit the top notes of Nessun Dorma, the crowd was cheering, I just
0:20:55 > 0:21:02filled up. Those moments were just the start.
0:21:02 > 0:21:08You have sown in front of world leaders, a private audience with
0:21:08 > 0:21:15Pope John Paul?They build it as a private audience with Pope John Paul
0:21:15 > 0:21:21II, 3500 specially invited dignitaries and around 500 people...
0:21:21 > 0:21:25Million people watching across Europe, a private audience. --
0:21:25 > 0:21:29around 500 million people watching in Europe. I could not believe I was
0:21:29 > 0:21:33there, amazing. From my perspective at the time it was a massive thrill,
0:21:33 > 0:21:38but at that particular moment in time, my career was rolling and I
0:21:38 > 0:21:44was selling millions of records all over the world...
0:21:44 > 0:21:56# In a restless world, like this is. # Love has ended before it's begun.
0:21:56 > 0:22:02I was in a place where, if I'm being honest, I wasn't really taking my
0:22:02 > 0:22:05spirituality, my religion, that serious. That's me being honest.
0:22:05 > 0:22:10Then, of course, a few years later when the wheels came off the wagon,
0:22:10 > 0:22:15then I turn to spirituality. The opera singer Russell Watson is
0:22:15 > 0:22:20undergoing emergency surgery to treat a tumour which is bleeding
0:22:20 > 0:22:23into his brain. It was only after I had recognised
0:22:23 > 0:22:29how close I was to death that I realised there are more important
0:22:29 > 0:22:33things in life than being number one and being the bestseller. And that
0:22:33 > 0:22:40is when I took my step into faith and religion and belief.
0:22:40 > 0:22:46Now, looking back with hindsight, if it hadn't happened, I wouldn't be
0:22:46 > 0:22:50the person I am today, and the person I am today is a better person
0:22:50 > 0:22:53than the one that existed ten years ago.
0:22:53 > 0:22:56We mention that you have sown in front of many important people on
0:22:56 > 0:23:04earth, you have also had your voice broadcast into space?We got a call
0:23:04 > 0:23:10from Nasa, as you do. We thought it was a wind-up at first. One of our
0:23:10 > 0:23:15probes is about to go past Pluto and we would like to beam a signal of
0:23:15 > 0:23:21Russell up to the probe to wake the probe up... I was like, fantastic. I
0:23:21 > 0:23:25sang the theme tune from Star Trek Enterprise and they wanted to use
0:23:25 > 0:23:32that to wake up the probe. New Horizons, your adventure, Pluto,
0:23:32 > 0:23:41awaits. Safe travels. God bless. # It's been a long road.
0:23:41 > 0:23:48# Getting from there to here. So I proudly announced on social
0:23:48 > 0:23:53media that my voice would be heard furthest from planet Earth than any
0:23:53 > 0:23:59other boys in the history of mankind. And somebody tweeted back,
0:23:59 > 0:24:05and that's where Richard stay! LAUGHTER
0:24:05 > 0:24:10From Earth to space to the heavens, you are now going to be playing the
0:24:10 > 0:24:15voice of God in a new stage musical? I like the way you did that
0:24:15 > 0:24:20explanationthere was method. It is a new arena tour of a musical
0:24:20 > 0:24:24called Heaven on Earth, it starts next month in Birmingham. The
0:24:24 > 0:24:33singers is the dancers have started working together, it is a big cast.
0:24:33 > 0:24:39And the story, in essence, is about Adam and Eve, that story, to me, was
0:24:39 > 0:24:45a story of a father and his children, and that is something that
0:24:45 > 0:24:50I can relate very well too. And that is how I initially undertook the
0:24:50 > 0:24:59role, it is not necessarily of this booming voice. Sometimes he can be
0:24:59 > 0:25:07very quiet... And then, of course, there is the booming, angry voice!
0:25:07 > 0:25:10When Adam finally betrays him and eats from the forbidden tree...
0:25:10 > 0:25:15Hasn't had any effect on your own interpretation of your faith or
0:25:15 > 0:25:23relationship with God? -- has it had?My faith, my interpretation of
0:25:23 > 0:25:28God, I believe there is a God and I hope there is somewhere after life
0:25:28 > 0:25:33for us to go. I hope that, but I am not categorically certain that there
0:25:33 > 0:25:40is.That is faith. Yes.Russell, thank you.It has been
0:25:40 > 0:25:47a real pleasure, thank you.
0:25:51 > 0:25:53Russell Watson - the voice of God.
0:25:53 > 0:25:55Still to come on Sunday Morning Live...
0:25:55 > 0:26:01How a Christian group is trying to take the spooks out of Halloween.
0:26:01 > 0:26:06I thought it would be interesting to have different shapes, just to
0:26:06 > 0:26:08convey a different message.
0:26:08 > 0:26:09Are young people being exploited at work?
0:26:09 > 0:26:12A proposal before Parliament at the moment seeks to limit unpaid
0:26:12 > 0:26:16internships to a maximum of four weeks.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19Up to 15,000 graduates and others a year are estimated to be
0:26:19 > 0:26:21on unpaid work experience.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24And young people figure prominently among those working
0:26:24 > 0:26:26on zero-hours contracts.
0:26:26 > 0:26:29That's where employees work only when they are needed by employers -
0:26:29 > 0:26:34such as delivery companies - often at short notice.
0:26:34 > 0:26:38Around 300,000 16 to 24-year-olds are on those terms.
0:26:38 > 0:26:40Are we looking at valuable work experience and efficient ways
0:26:40 > 0:26:46of working or exploitation?
0:26:46 > 0:26:48Joining me now are Mags Dewhurst, vice-president of the Independent
0:26:48 > 0:26:50Workers' Union of Great Britain, Adam Henderson, a consultant
0:26:50 > 0:26:54on millenial workers, Raef Bjayou, a businessman and former contestant
0:26:54 > 0:27:02on The Apprentice, and still with us is Luke Gittos.
0:27:02 > 0:27:07Adam, flexible working should give you much more freedom than a 95, the
0:27:07 > 0:27:11is you don't have a guarantee of when your next job would be. Do
0:27:11 > 0:27:15young people prefer that job security?It is all to do with
0:27:15 > 0:27:19choice. If you have chosen to become an entrepreneur and go out on your
0:27:19 > 0:27:22own and take the terms of your work based on your talent and what you
0:27:22 > 0:27:27want to do then, yes, it is really great, but if you are forced to do
0:27:27 > 0:27:33it because are no full-time jobs available and you are having to work
0:27:33 > 0:27:36during the day at one job and in the evening at another and the weekend
0:27:36 > 0:27:39at another just to scrape a living, there is a difference in terms of
0:27:39 > 0:27:45the flexibility. Choice is key.In your experience, do more young
0:27:45 > 0:27:48people prefer the flexibility? Again, it comes down to whether they
0:27:48 > 0:27:54have chosen it or not. From a millennial perspective, they want
0:27:54 > 0:27:57flexible working, with three quarters saying that is really
0:27:57 > 0:28:00important to them, but at the same time it is on their terms than they
0:28:00 > 0:28:05are doing it as part of a better worklife balance as opposed to just
0:28:05 > 0:28:10doing it to bring in enough money to fade -- feed themselves or put a
0:28:10 > 0:28:15roof over their heads.Mags, you went to a tribunal to win the right
0:28:15 > 0:28:20to be recognised as a worker, you are a cycle career, meaning you
0:28:20 > 0:28:23qualify for basic rights and the minimum wage. But the broader issue,
0:28:23 > 0:28:28what is at the root of your concerns?I think my main concern is
0:28:28 > 0:28:34there is now a shift taking place, and although I agree with some of
0:28:34 > 0:28:39what Adam said it is not really about a generational choice. I think
0:28:39 > 0:28:43flexibility is being offered to people in lieu of other perks that
0:28:43 > 0:28:49would normally be a decent wage, enough to live on, enough to save,
0:28:49 > 0:28:53enough for a pension, and for rent, enough to cover the cost of actually
0:28:53 > 0:28:59doing the job. All of those things were offered to people decades ago
0:28:59 > 0:29:03with proper self-employment, that was seen as the cost benefit ratio,
0:29:03 > 0:29:07but now it is becoming the norm and it is flooding into all these
0:29:07 > 0:29:13different sectors and I am worried that unscrupulous employers are
0:29:13 > 0:29:18taking advantage of people by saying we are going to pay you just about
0:29:18 > 0:29:21the National Minimum Wage but you can work whenever you want, but make
0:29:21 > 0:29:25sure you work at these times because this is the only time he will make
0:29:25 > 0:29:29money. I am afraid that is not good enough.
0:29:29 > 0:29:33Luke, our employers having their cake and eating it? The current
0:29:33 > 0:29:38system is undermining the basic rights of people and job security?
0:29:38 > 0:29:46It is complicated, the aspects which embrace choice are good that this
0:29:46 > 0:29:48generation, the millennial generation, who spend more time in
0:29:48 > 0:29:52education, broke Sample, can fit owning money around doing a degree,
0:29:52 > 0:29:56part-time education or similar -- who spend more time in education,
0:29:56 > 0:30:01for example, and can fit owning many around. But some employers take
0:30:01 > 0:30:05advantage, we need better employers and better jobs. But the way we talk
0:30:05 > 0:30:10about zero-hours contracts often paints millenials or young people in
0:30:10 > 0:30:13the workplace as victims of these awful companies forcing them to work
0:30:13 > 0:30:17flexibly and it is a lot more complicated than that. Often if you
0:30:17 > 0:30:21want to live a flexible life, flexible working can be good. It is
0:30:21 > 0:30:25just as exploitative to force people to go to work when there is no work
0:30:25 > 0:30:29to do, which often happens in salaried work. People can go to work
0:30:29 > 0:30:33even though they don't really need to be there. Flexible working take
0:30:33 > 0:30:38something out of that.Raef, talking about the zero others, what about
0:30:38 > 0:30:46work experience and unpaid internships?
0:30:46 > 0:30:51We have serious obstacles not just to agree about to education already.
0:30:51 > 0:30:55-- not just to a career. I don't think we need any other economic
0:30:55 > 0:30:59barriers. What I find peculiar that the debate over whether interns
0:30:59 > 0:31:02should or should not be paid, if we are simply saying that those of us
0:31:02 > 0:31:07who think all interns should be paid, and the social mobility
0:31:07 > 0:31:10commission says there should be a period four weeks, we think that if
0:31:10 > 0:31:15you do an honest day's work, you should have paid to you an honest
0:31:15 > 0:31:20day's salary. Whether it is three weeks, four, or six months.But it
0:31:20 > 0:31:24is an option to to learn about the job and you are not as good about a
0:31:24 > 0:31:28fellow worker.It is an opportunity to live. I am not suggesting the
0:31:28 > 0:31:35salary should be pegged to a fully fledged employee, but I am
0:31:35 > 0:31:37suggesting it is fair. Companies are founded on principles and one of
0:31:37 > 0:31:41them is that they pay for services of value. If you are suggesting that
0:31:41 > 0:31:44you're in turn is of value and is carrying out work that is valuable,
0:31:44 > 0:31:52then they need to be paid for it. -- your intern. And if the work is of
0:31:52 > 0:31:57no value, you shouldn't be engaging with them in the first place.
0:31:57 > 0:32:00With me now is Robyn Vinter, who runs a news website aimed
0:32:00 > 0:32:02at young people under 30, the so-called millenials.
0:32:02 > 0:32:06Unpaid interns form an important part of your staff, so why do you
0:32:06 > 0:32:17use them?There is a broad range of things, really. Mostly because I
0:32:17 > 0:32:21can't afford to have a full team of people. Partly it is because I
0:32:21 > 0:32:25started in an internship. I want to give that same kind of opportunities
0:32:25 > 0:32:30to other people as well.How long do people work for you with no pay?
0:32:30 > 0:32:35Three weeks. We have put a strict limit on it three weeks. We think
0:32:35 > 0:32:37that is enough time for them to learn about the business and learn
0:32:37 > 0:32:43what they need to do, and not to take too much advantage of them and
0:32:43 > 0:32:48take too much out of their career, basically.Are you surprised that
0:32:48 > 0:32:53you have ended up using them?Yes. I felt very strongly from the start
0:32:53 > 0:32:59that I was going to make sure that everybody who works for me will be
0:32:59 > 0:33:03paid, interns and everybody else, and a lot of people told me that was
0:33:03 > 0:33:06not sustainable and you need to start off with people who will work
0:33:06 > 0:33:14for free. Yeah. Then I started to realise that actually that is true.
0:33:14 > 0:33:20There is a definite line between between them getting a lot out of it
0:33:20 > 0:33:28as well. That is one thing.Have you been surprised sometimes that when
0:33:28 > 0:33:32you do give young people opportunities, have you been
0:33:32 > 0:33:36surprised by their response?Yes, I started strongly thinking that
0:33:36 > 0:33:38millenials needed more opportunities and students just need to be given
0:33:38 > 0:33:42the chance, that is definitely true of some people. But some of them I
0:33:42 > 0:33:46have been very surprised. People have applied for an internship and I
0:33:46 > 0:33:52have said come along, what days are you free? And they don't reply. One
0:33:52 > 0:33:56person replied, and then when I confirmed that it was unpaid, he
0:33:56 > 0:34:00said I don't work for free.I googled him just to see. I thought
0:34:00 > 0:34:08he might be the son of an earl or something. Michael -- I googled him
0:34:08 > 0:34:13and he was not famous so good luck to him. Some reality is that you
0:34:13 > 0:34:17have learned from setting up your own business. Disillusionment with
0:34:17 > 0:34:21young people. It sounds like she has had bad experiences with young
0:34:21 > 0:34:24people. Some people accuse the younger generation of not having as
0:34:24 > 0:34:29much graft as older generations. What is your experience?The
0:34:29 > 0:34:33collision of generations has been around since the dawn of time. My
0:34:33 > 0:34:40experience from my work in PR and marketing is that there are some
0:34:40 > 0:34:43great millenials, as there are some not great millenials, but that is
0:34:43 > 0:34:47the same and true of other generations as well. I think they
0:34:47 > 0:34:51get a very bad rap, and I think one of the reasons for that is the world
0:34:51 > 0:34:55of work is changing. It really is changing at a page that I don't
0:34:55 > 0:35:03think we had in our minds at all. -- at a pace. Millenials are beginning
0:35:03 > 0:35:08to realise that they feel they have been taken advantage of, many of
0:35:08 > 0:35:11them, and they are consciously aware of what they should be entitled to.
0:35:11 > 0:35:20I think that has been misconstrued as being too precious for the
0:35:20 > 0:35:24workplace, for lack of a better word.And that is not acceptable. Is
0:35:24 > 0:35:27there a problem with unpaid internships? You can only do that if
0:35:27 > 0:35:31you can afford it and if mum and dad can pay the rent. If you have not
0:35:31 > 0:35:36got that money, you will not do an unpaid internship.I think you are
0:35:36 > 0:35:40selling working-class young people short. People can strive. People are
0:35:40 > 0:35:45capable of doing an unpaid internship and making it work.
0:35:45 > 0:35:49Unpaid internships are the great social leveller. They mean people
0:35:49 > 0:35:54can compete in a meritocracy.That is absolutely ridiculous!If the
0:35:54 > 0:36:00only way to get a job at a newspaper to do an unpaid internship in
0:36:00 > 0:36:02London, a working-class child in the north of England is going to
0:36:02 > 0:36:07struggle much more than somebody, rich kid from west London.Of course
0:36:07 > 0:36:11that is true, it is absolutely true. But the problem is we are now
0:36:11 > 0:36:14denying them the opportunity to struggle and to make it work for
0:36:14 > 0:36:19themselves. I think that is patronising and wrong. In law
0:36:19 > 0:36:21especially, my industry, working class kids will not get the
0:36:21 > 0:36:26opportunity to prove themselves as competent and forthright because
0:36:26 > 0:36:31they will not have the same network, the same opportunity. If you
0:36:31 > 0:36:34formalise unpaid internships, they won't exist. Small firms like us, if
0:36:34 > 0:36:40you make us pay our interns, we just can't offer it.Young people are
0:36:40 > 0:36:45online a lot. What are they saying? Bobby says I did many months of
0:36:45 > 0:36:49unpaid work when I left university and I found it deeply satisfying and
0:36:49 > 0:36:52I got a pudding in my chosen industry and when I moved up to paid
0:36:52 > 0:36:59work I appreciated it more. -- I got a footing. Linda says there are
0:36:59 > 0:37:02sacrifices to be made and if you will not show willing at work for
0:37:02 > 0:37:06free, somebody else will happily. Naomi says that working for free
0:37:06 > 0:37:10makes you appear worthless. Only people with a rich mummy and daddy
0:37:10 > 0:37:13can enter certain industries. Donna says if you work for free, you drive
0:37:13 > 0:37:17down the wages that can be earned across the board. People need to
0:37:17 > 0:37:21show solidarity with each other. Thank you for your messages. Naomi
0:37:21 > 0:37:25says only people with a rich mummy and daddy can do the internships.
0:37:25 > 0:37:30Respond to that.With all due respect, Luke, I think what you are
0:37:30 > 0:37:35saying is ridiculous! It is not patronising. It is trying to level
0:37:35 > 0:37:43the playing field. It is massively advantageous to some people and
0:37:43 > 0:37:47massively disadvantageous to other people. And that is a class thing, a
0:37:47 > 0:37:51gender thing, a race thing, a massive intersection between all of
0:37:51 > 0:37:55these things. Of course there are no answers for voluntary organisations,
0:37:55 > 0:38:04charities and small businesses. -- nuances. But we have seen across the
0:38:04 > 0:38:08board that young people are doing more work for less money than the
0:38:08 > 0:38:11generations before them. That means that the entire economy is shifting
0:38:11 > 0:38:16into a low wage economy, which has a section of massive unpaid labour.
0:38:16 > 0:38:21Something needs to be done about that.I am afraid we are out of time
0:38:21 > 0:38:24on this so you have had the final word and I am glad that none of you
0:38:24 > 0:38:28is on work experience here. Thank you.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30Mindfulness, which aims to improve resilience and mental health
0:38:30 > 0:38:33by encouraging people to slow down and pay attention to the moment,
0:38:33 > 0:38:34has become very fashionable.
0:38:34 > 0:38:39One group in Yorkshire has gone a step further and you can now
0:38:39 > 0:38:42de-stress with the help of the trees.
0:38:42 > 0:38:44It's all part of a Japanese-inspired movement called forest bathing,
0:38:44 > 0:38:49as Mehreen Baig discovered.
0:38:49 > 0:38:52There are not many things more relaxing than a day spent in the
0:38:52 > 0:38:58countryside. Now a movement from Japan has harnessed this natural
0:38:58 > 0:39:05relaxant. It is known as Forest bathing. But why travel halfway
0:39:05 > 0:39:09around the world when you can do it right here on your doorstep? I have
0:39:09 > 0:39:13heard of bathing as a way to relax and usually it involves hot water
0:39:13 > 0:39:17and bubbles. But far from a warm bath, right now I am in the middle
0:39:17 > 0:39:25of a chilly forest. In Yorkshire. To find out what it is all about, I am
0:39:25 > 0:39:35meeting Emma Douglas who leads Forest bathing sessions here. What
0:39:35 > 0:39:40is Forest bathing?It is a mercy yourself in a wooded environment.
0:39:40 > 0:39:42The Japanese term directly translated to English is Forest
0:39:42 > 0:39:48bathing. They have found that the trees give off essential board oils
0:39:48 > 0:39:55that reduce stress, aid with sleep and pain. There is a huge benefit.
0:39:55 > 0:40:00And who is it for? Absolutely anybody can benefit. Throughout the
0:40:00 > 0:40:05week Faith encourages everybody to leave the worries of daily life and
0:40:05 > 0:40:09join her on a walk through the trees.Check your arms and your legs
0:40:09 > 0:40:14and your head.To begin the session, we need to loosen up.We are going
0:40:14 > 0:40:19to start with mindful walking. Mindful walking, that seems simple
0:40:19 > 0:40:25enough. It is actually really pretty. To really connect with
0:40:25 > 0:40:28nature, we are recommended to get really stuck in. I invite you to
0:40:28 > 0:40:41take off your shoes and socks. Now a spot of paddling. And Faith turns it
0:40:41 > 0:40:48up a notch and asks us to befriend a tree.Pick a tree, any tree, and
0:40:48 > 0:40:56hang out with it for five minutes. Just pick one.I picked that one
0:40:56 > 0:41:02because it looks lonely.
0:41:15 > 0:41:22I am so terrible at shutting off. I am touching the tree and I am
0:41:22 > 0:41:26looking at my nails. It is so peaceful. It is much more peaceful
0:41:26 > 0:41:35than I expected it to be. I don't know. I'm finding it really hard to
0:41:35 > 0:41:43shut off and I find it a bit weird to get to know a tree. It is
0:41:43 > 0:41:49actually quite nice! I am not sure if I have got the hang of this yet.
0:41:49 > 0:41:53To understand more, I am going to talk to someone who found forest
0:41:53 > 0:41:59bathing a life changing experience. After spending seven months on
0:41:59 > 0:42:01active service in Iraq, Ken was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress
0:42:01 > 0:42:06disorder.Post-traumatic stress disorder didn't kick in for me for a
0:42:06 > 0:42:14long time. While you are on tour, the training kicks in, and it is
0:42:14 > 0:42:17when you come back to family life that it is difficult to adjust after
0:42:17 > 0:42:21being in that situation for so long. When you started this, how bad was
0:42:21 > 0:42:26your condition?My wife and daughter moved out. I was constantly angry. I
0:42:26 > 0:42:30didn't care about anything. I didn't want to leave the house. I didn't
0:42:30 > 0:42:35sleep at all. In 2015I went to see my GP, he was incidentally ex-forces
0:42:35 > 0:42:40and he got me straightaway. He said I needed to speak to someone and
0:42:40 > 0:42:43from there, I started the forest bathing. I am so much more relaxed
0:42:43 > 0:42:51and, within myself. I am back with my wife and daughter now thanks to
0:42:51 > 0:42:55the help I got through forest bathing.It is amazing to hear how
0:42:55 > 0:42:59far Ken has come. For him, spending the time being mindful around nature
0:42:59 > 0:43:04seems to have really benefited his situation. I have enjoyed my time in
0:43:04 > 0:43:08the woodland learning about forest bathing. While I might find other
0:43:08 > 0:43:11ways of relaxing a bit more appealing, for the people here, it
0:43:11 > 0:43:15really does seem to work.
0:43:19 > 0:43:20Mehreen Baig chilling in Yorkshire.
0:43:20 > 0:43:23Sticking with the theme of getting away from it all,
0:43:23 > 0:43:24this weekend Jewish families are being encouraged
0:43:24 > 0:43:27to make a special effort to mark their Sabbath.
0:43:27 > 0:43:31Shabbat UK is a celebration of the Jewish day of rest and aims
0:43:31 > 0:43:33to highlight the importance of spending time with loved
0:43:33 > 0:43:36ones and the community, rather than being at work or online.
0:43:36 > 0:43:39But it's not just an issue for Jewish families.
0:43:39 > 0:43:43A new survey suggests that an increasing number of Christians
0:43:43 > 0:43:46feel that four of the 10 commandments are no longer relevant,
0:43:46 > 0:43:48including the need to keep the Sabbath day holy.
0:43:48 > 0:43:52With shops and DIY stores open, less than one in three believe
0:43:52 > 0:43:55in preserving Sunday as a day of peace.
0:43:55 > 0:43:58So is it important for all of us to have a dedicated day
0:43:58 > 0:44:01of rest and reflection, or is the idea of the Sabbath
0:44:01 > 0:44:04incompatible with modern lifestyles?
0:44:04 > 0:44:06Here to discuss that are Angela Epstein,
0:44:06 > 0:44:14a broadcaster and writer, Kathy Lette, a novelist,
0:44:14 > 0:44:15Rev George Hargreaves, a Christian campaigner,
0:44:15 > 0:44:19and re-joining the panel is journalist Sirena Berman.
0:44:19 > 0:44:24Let's put aside the fact that we are working on a Sunday! Are we losing
0:44:24 > 0:44:29something if we lose the national day of rest, the Sunday?It was
0:44:29 > 0:44:33never a day of rest for women. Even though we make up 50% of the
0:44:33 > 0:44:39workforce, we were always doing 99% of the childcare and has worked. If
0:44:39 > 0:44:43you think of the Sunday roast, you get up and you peel the vegetables.
0:44:43 > 0:44:48I have cooked herds of beef, flocks of lambs, schools of salmon, and it
0:44:48 > 0:44:53is exhausting and I am totally against going back to the day for
0:44:53 > 0:44:57men and the day on for women.You should come back to my house because
0:44:57 > 0:45:01I do the Sunday roast! Is it unrealistic to expect everybody to
0:45:01 > 0:45:08have the same day as a rest day?
0:45:08 > 0:45:13As a Jewish person, my sabbath is, if you like, Sundown to symptom.
0:45:13 > 0:45:18Friday night to Saturday night I have what you would call a digital
0:45:18 > 0:45:23detox, no phones, no telly, we go to synagogue, we have family meals, you
0:45:23 > 0:45:27see friends and it is a trust, it has been like that the generations
0:45:27 > 0:45:31and it is almost like the Almighty, if you buy into that, which I very
0:45:31 > 0:45:35much do, had the great foresight to realise that time would come when
0:45:35 > 0:45:38humanity would evolve, when we couldn't cope without plugging it in
0:45:38 > 0:45:42or buying it. My favourite time of the week is Friday afternoon,
0:45:42 > 0:45:48everything gets switched off. What I would say, ironically, even though I
0:45:48 > 0:45:52have a 25 hour digital detox, I miss Sunday being a day of rest, because
0:45:52 > 0:45:56I'm very British as well as being very Jewish. Shopping and trekking
0:45:56 > 0:46:00around the town centre is the default activity now. Before it was
0:46:00 > 0:46:04like there was nothing else to do except go to the park, go to the
0:46:04 > 0:46:09countryside, have time with the family. By 13-year-old will say can
0:46:09 > 0:46:13we maybe go to the shops or whatever. I say can we go to the
0:46:13 > 0:46:21park? She is going, really?! We have those quasi-American conversations.
0:46:21 > 0:46:24Sirena, we talk about worklife balance. Having a Sunday as a rest
0:46:24 > 0:46:30day gives us that it forces us to have back?Arguably not, as was very
0:46:30 > 0:46:33eloquently explained by Kathy. What we need to think about in terms of
0:46:33 > 0:46:38worklife balance is how the world works today, not these regressive
0:46:38 > 0:46:42ideas of looking back decades to the past. Today it has been proven over
0:46:42 > 0:46:47and over that flexible working, remote working is so beneficial to
0:46:47 > 0:46:51society as a whole, it makes people more productive and happy and allows
0:46:51 > 0:46:55us to develop a worklife balance in our own terms, not on the terms of
0:46:55 > 0:47:00the people perhaps looking at their very specific situation.George,
0:47:00 > 0:47:04very few people have Sunday as a rest day, even Christians do not
0:47:04 > 0:47:09believe it?I want to see the data. I am with Angela, if the Almighty
0:47:09 > 0:47:14said let's have a day off, I think we are looking at the owners' manual
0:47:14 > 0:47:19for how we should live. If we do not think about it necessarily from a
0:47:19 > 0:47:23religious point of view, I am not for legislating religious practice,
0:47:23 > 0:47:27I am dead against it, but from a practical point of view, I can
0:47:27 > 0:47:32remember an old song which said I Wish It Could Be Christmas Every
0:47:32 > 0:47:38Day. It could actually be Christmas for 52 days of the year...So true.
0:47:38 > 0:47:43If we just have Sunday off. Closed-end Tesco and Sainsbury's, we
0:47:43 > 0:47:57deal with it at Christmas...All I was
0:47:58 > 0:48:01going to say is that Sunday rest has become Sunday stress, what has
0:48:01 > 0:48:02happened, nothing to do with religion and legislating how
0:48:02 > 0:48:05religiously you approach Sundays, I do not suggest everyone has the
0:48:05 > 0:48:07digital detox we have, but stepping off the mouse wheel.I like the
0:48:07 > 0:48:10sound of 52 days of Christmas but I am not sure that is in the Bible.
0:48:10 > 0:48:13With me now is Matt Writtle, a documentary photographer who has
0:48:13 > 0:48:17just published a book of photos of things we get up to on a Sunday.
0:48:17 > 0:48:20You came back to the UK having lived abroad and you notice things had
0:48:20 > 0:48:27changed on a so-called day of rest? What was the difference?Retail, I
0:48:27 > 0:48:31think. I think most of the difficult thing that people struggle with now
0:48:31 > 0:48:38is that shops are open and, like your panellists said, there is the
0:48:38 > 0:48:42opportunity to just go out and do the shopping.What are some of the
0:48:42 > 0:48:46images you included in the collection?Unsurprisingly, the main
0:48:46 > 0:48:52one was IKEA. They were very generous and allowed me to go into
0:48:52 > 0:48:56their Manchester store, I documented people shopping in IKEA on Sunday.
0:48:56 > 0:49:02Football is another massive change since the invention of the Premier
0:49:02 > 0:49:05League, people now go to watch football games more on a Sunday than
0:49:05 > 0:49:16on a Saturday. On the other side there is the success of religion,
0:49:16 > 0:49:21the Pentecostal church has seen a dramatic increase in attendance
0:49:21 > 0:49:26figures.So people doing a range of activities, with the exception of
0:49:26 > 0:49:29the last photo not necessarily relaxing or engaging in any way with
0:49:29 > 0:49:34what they are thinking about, just consuming?I guess the traditions
0:49:34 > 0:49:38are still there. People still do the things they have done for
0:49:38 > 0:49:45generations but I think there is a gradual erosion of those moments
0:49:45 > 0:49:49where we actually used to stop and just reflect on the week we have
0:49:49 > 0:49:52just had and the week we have coming.
0:49:52 > 0:49:58One of the photos particularly resonated with me, thank you very
0:49:58 > 0:50:02much, students lying in their own squalor in front of the television!
0:50:02 > 0:50:06There are photos of me that exist like that, but not available now.
0:50:06 > 0:50:10Kathy, looking at some of those pictures, IKEA, it was women with
0:50:10 > 0:50:15their children. You say women used to work really hard when Sunday was
0:50:15 > 0:50:20a rest day, it puts more pressure on them?Working mothers juggle so much
0:50:20 > 0:50:23that we could be in the Cirque du Soleil. Trying to fit in all your
0:50:23 > 0:50:29shopping after work or on a Saturday, it gives you the
0:50:29 > 0:50:34opportunity to do it on a Sunday afternoon, not cram everything else
0:50:34 > 0:50:38in. My commandment is thou shall not ball. When I moved to Britain and
0:50:38 > 0:50:43all the shops were shut on a Sunday, they were so boring, sometimes there
0:50:43 > 0:50:47was so bored doing creative things with Play-Doh I could see my plans
0:50:47 > 0:50:51engaging in photosynthesis, at least we could go to the shops, the
0:50:51 > 0:50:57movies, whatever. It is liberating. George?When I was a child, I helped
0:50:57 > 0:51:01my mum in the kitchen. It was not just mum on Sunday, it was a family
0:51:01 > 0:51:11thing.Unita Halo!Can you do three hours on a Friday morning?!We had a
0:51:11 > 0:51:16big family, seven kids, we mucked in. Mum was our manager. Christmas
0:51:16 > 0:51:21is family time. What I'm saying about Sunday, it could be Saturday
0:51:21 > 0:51:25in a Jewish context, bringing together the family. A situation
0:51:25 > 0:51:31where it does not cost you more... Kathy, it is not necessarily boring,
0:51:31 > 0:51:36it is family time, it keeps families together?You can have family time,
0:51:36 > 0:51:41but it is not have to be on a Sunday. Friday night, movie and
0:51:41 > 0:51:46popcorn, go to the park. Bring back Sunday lunch if men do the cooking,
0:51:46 > 0:51:50I use my smoke alarm as a time, I am not want to do the cooking!
0:51:50 > 0:51:55We are all about family time, this isn't something that many people
0:51:55 > 0:52:00have access to. Workers are younger, people live further from siblings
0:52:00 > 0:52:03and parents, people have children much older. The idea that everyone
0:52:03 > 0:52:06has to have Sundays off to allow the people who have families to spend
0:52:06 > 0:52:12the day with them is putting people in a situation where...George, this
0:52:12 > 0:52:22gives a choice?Look at a day off. If you work anything tirelessly, it
0:52:22 > 0:52:26will burst. We see that with mental health problems, people are getting
0:52:26 > 0:52:31stressed out. Take a chill pill, whether 5pm on a Friday or Sunday
0:52:31 > 0:52:36morning. I want to make this point, I believe that God put this as a
0:52:36 > 0:52:40Sabbath because it is the best idea, I am not saying you do it because
0:52:40 > 0:52:45God said, you do it because it is the best idea.Without question. I
0:52:45 > 0:52:56have lots of non-Jewish friends and colleagues who had jealously looked
0:52:56 > 0:52:58at me and said, really, you turn everything off on a Friday
0:52:58 > 0:53:01afternoon? Of course I have missed out on work and things I wanted to
0:53:01 > 0:53:04go to, but the payoff is so much greater, the feeling of regeneration
0:53:04 > 0:53:06and regrouping.We are working hard, but let's see what the people
0:53:06 > 0:53:10putting their feet apart home are saying.George says I thought we
0:53:10 > 0:53:14should return to Sunday being treated as sacred for a long time, I
0:53:14 > 0:53:18remember them being undoubtedly better, more respectable and happier
0:53:18 > 0:53:21days than now. Fay says my husband is a chef, people would lose their
0:53:21 > 0:53:25marbles if he did not cook them Sunday lunch. Our weekends are
0:53:25 > 0:53:29whatever days off he has in the week. Makes day trips quieter with
0:53:29 > 0:53:32most people at work or school. Elaine says there is nothing wrong
0:53:32 > 0:53:44with people having a holy day,
0:53:55 > 0:53:58whatever their religion, a day of rest is from the big good for
0:53:58 > 0:54:00everyone, but nobody has the right to impose that on others by whatever
0:54:00 > 0:54:02means possible.Kathy, what would you do today?Going straight back to
0:54:02 > 0:54:06bed. It is a day of rest. Men ask what a woman wants in bed, the
0:54:06 > 0:54:08answer is breakfast!I am going to church.Probably sleep on the train
0:54:08 > 0:54:11home, I will still regarded as a day of rest and drag my daughter to the
0:54:11 > 0:54:14park, rather than shopping.I will be working, Sundays on one of my
0:54:14 > 0:54:17most convenient days to do my job and I am pleased I have the freedom
0:54:17 > 0:54:20to do that. I don't feel more stress than anyone else, I imagine. I take
0:54:20 > 0:54:24my day off when it is suitable for me, different hours on different
0:54:24 > 0:54:31days.You are going home to cook lunch?I have to now!
0:54:31 > 0:54:34Thank you all very much indeed.
0:54:34 > 0:54:36On Tuesday, ghosts, ghouls, skeletons and scary stuff will be
0:54:36 > 0:54:39on parade as the traditional Halloween fest gets under way.
0:54:39 > 0:54:41Some people, though, are uneasy at the idea
0:54:41 > 0:54:42of celebrating demonic creatures and children knocking
0:54:42 > 0:54:45on doors asking for sweets.
0:54:45 > 0:54:48Wendy Robbins has been to meet one group who have come up
0:54:48 > 0:54:54with an alternative.
0:54:54 > 0:54:57Halloween is a time when children all around the UK like to dress up
0:54:57 > 0:55:04in masks and scary costumes. And when night falls, it is time to
0:55:04 > 0:55:09prowl the neighbourhood, surprising people.Trick or treat!
0:55:09 > 0:55:15But in Abersoch in North Wales, they are taking another approach.Come
0:55:15 > 0:55:22in.It is part of a project from the Christian charity Scripture Union to
0:55:22 > 0:55:25give more meaning to Halloween. Some of the traditional trimmings are
0:55:25 > 0:55:30you, but with a different twist. Was this your idea tab across on the
0:55:30 > 0:55:34pumpkin?Yes, I thought it would be interesting to have different shapes
0:55:34 > 0:55:39and convey a different message. It symbolises tonight, the cross on
0:55:39 > 0:55:43the pumpkin?Yes, bringing different aspects to Halloween and a different
0:55:43 > 0:55:45point of view.
0:55:50 > 0:55:55This year around 8000 light party packs, as they are called, have been
0:55:55 > 0:55:59distributed, and families in Abersoch are doing their bit by
0:55:59 > 0:56:03making lanterns.I am rubbish at Artem Kravets. I am hoping if I wear
0:56:03 > 0:56:10this it will help me.We need to do some bending.-- I am rubbish at
0:56:10 > 0:56:16arts and crafts.The parties offer advice on games, crafting and
0:56:16 > 0:56:20friendly competition. Look at my lantern. Ten out of ten?!
0:56:20 > 0:56:23Thank you, Charlie X the measure marked so kind.
0:56:23 > 0:56:27Some parents have chosen to join the light party because they believe
0:56:27 > 0:56:32modern day Halloween has taken on a darker undertone.I have nothing
0:56:32 > 0:56:38against Halloween, but it is more about scaring people. I like these
0:56:38 > 0:56:41because it is an opportunity for those who do not want to go to
0:56:41 > 0:56:44Halloween. Making lanterns has gone down a
0:56:44 > 0:56:48treat with most of the children, but some still can't resist the spooky
0:56:48 > 0:56:56thrills. Who likes Halloween?Me. Me.What do you like?Wearing scary
0:56:56 > 0:57:01costumes.You get sweets for free. That is a very good reason. What
0:57:01 > 0:57:16about you?Because it is very scary. It is a wet evening in North Wales
0:57:16 > 0:57:18but that has not dampened spirits. To wrap the party, toasted
0:57:18 > 0:57:21marshmallows around an open fire. What do you hope people take away
0:57:21 > 0:57:24tonight?I hope they will have had fun, but it is an opportunity to
0:57:24 > 0:57:26talk about and show who God is, share the light of Jesus, the love
0:57:26 > 0:57:30of God and for people to think more about who you might be.I had a
0:57:30 > 0:57:33funny moment when I spoke to some of the children and I asked what they
0:57:33 > 0:57:37liked about Halloween and they said, it is scary, we want to be scared!
0:57:37 > 0:57:49You will never take that away from kids.Know, and some of these will
0:57:49 > 0:57:52probably go to a Halloween party as well, but at least they have had the
0:57:52 > 0:57:55choice, and when they are older they can choose which one makes the most
0:57:55 > 0:57:57impact and which one does not. Wendy Robbins with a different take
0:57:57 > 0:57:58on Halloween.
0:57:58 > 0:58:00That's nearly all from us for this week.
0:58:00 > 0:58:02Many thanks to all our guests and you at home
0:58:02 > 0:58:03for your contributions.
0:58:03 > 0:58:05Emma will be carrying on the conversation online.
0:58:05 > 0:58:08Yes, I'll be talking to novelist and comedian Kathy Lette to find out
0:58:08 > 0:58:11how she thinks we can make Sundays more fun, and to discuss
0:58:11 > 0:58:12her latest comedy tour.
0:58:12 > 0:58:13Log on to facebook.com/bbcsundaymorninglive
0:58:13 > 0:58:14to join the conversation.
0:58:14 > 0:58:15That's coming up online shortly.
0:58:15 > 0:58:18In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole
0:58:18 > 0:58:20Sunday Morning Live team, goodbye.