:00:08. > :00:17.On today's programme: In the aftermath of a van driving
:00:18. > :00:19.into Muslims leaving prayers, we ask how can we prevent a rise
:00:20. > :00:32.Also on the programme: Doctors are debating whether the abortion laws
:00:33. > :00:35.are out of date. Should the time limit be extended?
:00:36. > :00:39.And should we invest in the space race to Mars to help save the earth?
:00:40. > :00:41.And Emma Barnett is here as usual to sample your views.
:00:42. > :00:48.We want you to get in touch with your views on our
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:01:04. > :01:05.name so I can get you involved in our heated discussions.
:01:06. > :01:16.My horse, my horse! My kingdom for a horse!
:01:17. > :01:19.Later I meet Mat Fraser, said to be the first
:01:20. > :01:27.Pretty much everything I do I tend to be the first disabled person to
:01:28. > :01:37.do that thing! It is part of the course for my career.
:01:38. > :01:39.This week began with a group of Muslim worshippers leaving
:01:40. > :01:42.prayers for Ramadan and walking straight into a nightmare.
:01:43. > :01:45.One man died and several people were injured after a van ploughed
:01:46. > :01:49.into them outside a mosque in Finsbury Park.
:01:50. > :01:53.Darren Osborne has been charged with terrorism-related murder
:01:54. > :01:55.and attempted murder following the incident.
:01:56. > :01:57.We can't discuss this case in detail because of
:01:58. > :02:04.But after the news about Finsbury Park broke,
:02:05. > :02:07.both extremist Muslims and the far right took to the internet to use it
:02:08. > :02:13.So our first discussion today is how do we stop the rise in hate
:02:14. > :02:23.Joining me here in the studio are Professor Ben Carrington,
:02:24. > :02:24.a sociologist specialising in race, gender and culture,
:02:25. > :02:27.Ruth Dudley-Edwards a journalist and broadcaster, Shaista Aziz
:02:28. > :02:31.Tom Slater is the Deputy Editor of Spiked Online.
:02:32. > :02:45.We have had a string of incidents in the last few months. What kind of
:02:46. > :02:47.atmosphere has that created? Fragile atmosphere where people are
:02:48. > :02:51.frightened and scared and understandably so. It is important
:02:52. > :02:56.how we discuss these issues. There are some narratives that we need to
:02:57. > :02:58.unpack. One is the notion that far right extremism is a new phenomenon
:02:59. > :03:03.that has suddenly emerged in the past weeks or months which is simply
:03:04. > :03:07.not the case. We are not too far away from Soho, the so-called mail
:03:08. > :03:12.bomber, where David Copeland went out and killed three people and
:03:13. > :03:19.injured scores more. He targeted certain areas, the gay area of Soho,
:03:20. > :03:27.bricklaying and Brixton. And Anders Breivik killed dozens of people in
:03:28. > :03:30.Norway. Extremism is not new. Many people deny the existence of
:03:31. > :03:36.Islamophobia. How do we address the context if we deny the framework? On
:03:37. > :03:40.that first point, how did the media report those cases of far right
:03:41. > :03:45.extremism in your opinion? You tend to find in these moments that they
:03:46. > :03:50.are isolated as a lone wolf. Mental health issues are immediately put on
:03:51. > :03:57.the agenda and they don't get to stand in for all white people, as we
:03:58. > :04:00.do with Islamic inspired terrorism. Are you blaming the media? The media
:04:01. > :04:05.has been appalling in these issues. You are a journalist. It is you,
:04:06. > :04:09.your colleagues and your peers. It is your fault. Fortunately I am not
:04:10. > :04:13.a newspaper editor so I don't take the rap for any of it. Would you
:04:14. > :04:18.blame the media? I always blame the media actually for concurring in
:04:19. > :04:21.covering up discussion. I think that has been one of the big problems we
:04:22. > :04:27.have had for the last couple of decades. We have not been honest in
:04:28. > :04:33.conversation. Every time there is an exhibition of Islamic extremism and
:04:34. > :04:36.Islamism, and it has nothing to do with Islam, which politicians say,
:04:37. > :04:40.which is rubbish, because we have got to talk about the truth. We
:04:41. > :04:43.should be emphasising what a terrific country this is and how
:04:44. > :04:49.extraordinarily tolerant it is. I was looking at research on European
:04:50. > :04:52.countries and their attitudes to Muslims and the UK was the least
:04:53. > :04:55.negative of the ten countries I looked at. There were negative
:04:56. > :05:01.responses in Hungary of something like 70% and down to 27% in the UK.
:05:02. > :05:07.It is a great tradition of tolerance and we should applaud it. That is a
:05:08. > :05:12.positive picture. The media, are they reporting terrorism and far
:05:13. > :05:16.right extremism, which many people say is terrorism, fairly? The first
:05:17. > :05:20.thing to point out is context. When some terrorism is described as a
:05:21. > :05:26.lone wolf or crazed individual or whatever, however it is couched, the
:05:27. > :05:30.is missing. The context is that there has been a fivefold increase
:05:31. > :05:34.in reported hate crime in the City of London. Sadiq Khan has said that
:05:35. > :05:37.terrorism is terrorism and he is absolutely right. Posed Manchester
:05:38. > :05:41.there has been a 500% increase in hate crime. We need to make sure
:05:42. > :05:45.that when we are putting on these issues, the context is there. There
:05:46. > :05:50.is a mounting catalogue of reported hate crime taking place in this
:05:51. > :06:00.country. Is that because of the way it is reported? The media is a big
:06:01. > :06:02.term to use that we have got to break that down. There is a lot of
:06:03. > :06:05.inflammatory coverage. A lot of information that is being spun in
:06:06. > :06:09.that way which is definitely feeding into misinformation. Is the
:06:10. > :06:13.inflammatory coverage that some people say is flaring up terrorism
:06:14. > :06:16.and reaction, is that to blame? I don't think so. There is a
:06:17. > :06:21.tremendous double standard in place as Ruth has gestured to. Whenever
:06:22. > :06:25.there is an Islamist attack, people are quick to say, and rightly, that
:06:26. > :06:28.you shouldn't extrapolate to the religion itself. We need to talk
:06:29. > :06:31.about these things carefully and I agree with that. But as soon as
:06:32. > :06:42.there is something that appears to be a far right extremist attack, you
:06:43. > :06:44.don't just hear discussion about extremist publications, you may
:06:45. > :06:46.discussion about the Daily Mail, The Sun, cartoons in broadsheet
:06:47. > :06:49.newspapers showing the van used in this attack with the Daily Mail and
:06:50. > :06:52.The Sun plastered on this. The far right threat is being defined down
:06:53. > :06:56.in many respects and what it expresses is a contempt for white
:06:57. > :07:01.working-class people, who are seen as a pogrom in waiting. We just need
:07:02. > :07:07.one Katie Hopkins column to hop into. That is deeply disturbing.
:07:08. > :07:13.Your response, Ben? I agree that the term the media is just too broad. It
:07:14. > :07:16.is ludicrous to pretend that the Daily Mail and The Sun are defenders
:07:17. > :07:20.of the white working class. Nobody has done more to denigrate them than
:07:21. > :07:24.those publications. It is a slippage between the right and the far right.
:07:25. > :07:28.I don't think there is a far right extremist. If you look at their
:07:29. > :07:34.views, they would say Islam doesn't belong in Europe, and they don't
:07:35. > :07:40.like multiculturalism, issues which are an issue in The Sun and Spiked.
:07:41. > :07:46.Those are blurred. The gap between Spike magazine and many other
:07:47. > :07:49.publications is slipping to the far right? That is ludicrous because we
:07:50. > :07:52.are progressive humanist magazine and we are not right wing hate
:07:53. > :07:55.peddlers by any stretch of imagination. We don't have a
:07:56. > :07:58.particularly pronounced problem with far right extremism in this country
:07:59. > :08:02.so that when people talk that the threat of it they have got to define
:08:03. > :08:06.everything down. Over the past week you heard people like Douglas
:08:07. > :08:09.Murray, someone I disagree with on many counts, but being referred to
:08:10. > :08:15.in the same dress as Andrew Chowdhury. Douglas Murray has not
:08:16. > :08:18.been for expressing support for terrorist groups. This slippage
:08:19. > :08:21.demonstrates something we can take some heart from, which is the story
:08:22. > :08:24.of far right extremism in this country over the past 30 or 40
:08:25. > :08:30.years, which is one of terminal decline. That is not true. It is
:08:31. > :08:34.true. If you go from the 1970s, national front, the BNP, any end we
:08:35. > :08:38.have very sad protest groups like the endless defence league, who
:08:39. > :08:44.yesterday could barely get 50 people out. So what about the hate crimes?
:08:45. > :08:47.Far right extremists are using the internet in the same way as Islamist
:08:48. > :08:51.extremists. They are gathering online, they are connecting with
:08:52. > :08:57.other groups in Europe. It is not true to say that the threat is going
:08:58. > :09:00.down. It is actually going up. If you look at what the security
:09:01. > :09:04.minister said in relation to the attack in Finsbury Park, he said the
:09:05. > :09:07.government is aware of far right groups operating. We cannot deny
:09:08. > :09:12.that this is happening and we cannot say it is going down because it is
:09:13. > :09:16.not. Divided opinion here. What have you got for us?
:09:17. > :09:19.Fiyaz Mughal is the founder of TellMAMA, an organisation
:09:20. > :09:28.Good morning. Have you got evidence that hate crimes have gone up? We
:09:29. > :09:32.have got evidence that there are large spikes and peaks when there
:09:33. > :09:35.are major national and international incidents. The baseline is certainly
:09:36. > :09:40.rising but there are very large peaks and troughs. They are
:09:41. > :09:43.predominately after major Islamist terrorist attacks. So the numbers
:09:44. > :09:49.are up. Where are they up to at the moment and who perpetrate these
:09:50. > :09:54.crimes against Muslims? We have got to make it clear distinction between
:09:55. > :09:59.hate crimes and hate incidents. People can report in because they
:10:00. > :10:03.are targeted because of a characteristic of theirs. Most of
:10:04. > :10:06.them are opportunistic. People see somebody visibly from the Muslim
:10:07. > :10:10.community and they say something. The vast majority of these incidents
:10:11. > :10:19.would be general abuse and thankfully the number of results is
:10:20. > :10:21.small. We see these large numbers of incidents straight after national
:10:22. > :10:26.incidents like terror attacks in our country. Are they up at the moment?
:10:27. > :10:31.They are up at the moment. After Manchester, they were very high and
:10:32. > :10:35.we reported over 530% increase seven days before versus seven days after.
:10:36. > :10:39.After London Bridge again they went up. What we didn't see after the
:10:40. > :10:44.Westminster terrorist attack was any form of Spike and we are looking
:10:45. > :10:48.into that. That is quite unique. Something didn't happen around hate
:10:49. > :10:53.crime after Westminster. What other long-term effects of Islamophobic
:10:54. > :10:59.attacks on the Muslim community in Britain? The long-term impact is it
:11:00. > :11:08.sense of fear, where Muslim women, in particularly visibly Muslim
:11:09. > :11:13.women, they are not going out after dark, they are taking off their
:11:14. > :11:17.headscarves. It is the impact. It is wide at the moment. We have got to
:11:18. > :11:22.put that in perspective. Hate crime when it takes place is general abuse
:11:23. > :11:27.and we have got to put that sense of fear in perspective. Let me also say
:11:28. > :11:30.that there is a general sense where communities start to distrust
:11:31. > :11:35.themselves if these hate crimes happen time after time after major
:11:36. > :11:39.Islamist attacks. That sense of distrust also impact on communities
:11:40. > :11:44.and how they perceive each other. That is very interesting. Thank you.
:11:45. > :11:48.A sense of fear and distrust. How much a social media to blame for
:11:49. > :11:51.that? I think that is one of the interesting things that has been
:11:52. > :11:56.pointed out in relation to this. When hate crimes and hate incidents
:11:57. > :11:59.are reported, I think it is misleading. People assume there has
:12:00. > :12:04.been a 500 fold rise in physical attacks and often what it comes down
:12:05. > :12:06.to is verbal abuse and abuse on social media. All of which is
:12:07. > :12:17.horrendous and should be condemned in the strongest terms, but my
:12:18. > :12:19.concern is that in this discussion it is conflated with violent attacks
:12:20. > :12:21.or nobody takes the effort to differentiate out those parts. If we
:12:22. > :12:24.are talking about people feeling anxious, if you constantly talk up
:12:25. > :12:28.the threat of violence is a phobia and extremism, that will do far more
:12:29. > :12:31.damage to communities and their sense of cohesion than dealing with
:12:32. > :12:34.them properly and talking about them on their sense of scale. It is
:12:35. > :12:38.reckless to talk up the threat as much as people do. There are Muslims
:12:39. > :12:42.who do not feel safe in this country which is not good, whether it is on
:12:43. > :12:46.social media or actual attacks. Part of the reason is what they are being
:12:47. > :12:51.fed by their own communities. It crime as opposed to hate incidents.
:12:52. > :12:56.Somebody shouting abuse is nasty, very bad manners. So is an abusive
:12:57. > :13:01.tweet. Absolutely but it is all over the internet. But if it is targeted
:13:02. > :13:05.at Muslims, it is bad, isn't it? If it is targeted at anybody, it is
:13:06. > :13:09.bad, of course it is. There are lots of very sad people on the internet
:13:10. > :13:12.but we have got to get it in context. I speak as an Irish
:13:13. > :13:15.immigrant and I lived here through all the bombing in the 70s and 80s
:13:16. > :13:19.and I was astounded by the intolerance of the English. If
:13:20. > :13:25.occasionally somebody said something slightly rude about by accent, I
:13:26. > :13:28.didn't report it as a hate crime. We have got to get a sense of
:13:29. > :13:31.perspective. Telling Muslims how welcome they are in this country and
:13:32. > :13:37.telling Muslim is what a tolerant country it is and that they should
:13:38. > :13:40.be proud of it would be a start. You have spent a lot of time in America.
:13:41. > :13:45.Similar tensions there. Can we learn anything from them and what is it
:13:46. > :13:48.like in American society at the moment? We have similar
:13:49. > :13:52.conversations in the USA right now. We have the same patronising
:13:53. > :13:56.discourse towards Muslims, telling them that Islamophobic threats, kids
:13:57. > :13:59.being terrorised at school, being victimised, is just a form of bad
:14:00. > :14:03.manners and Islamophobia doesn't exist. You will find some similar
:14:04. > :14:07.parallels to what is happening in the UK right now. I agree it is
:14:08. > :14:12.important to distinguish between not conflating Islamophobia and the
:14:13. > :14:16.context to broadly, but sometimes the opposite takes place from the
:14:17. > :14:19.right. They define it so narrowly, that only seven explicitly claiming
:14:20. > :14:25.to be attacking someone because they are Muslim and inflicting bodily
:14:26. > :14:29.damage or even death gets to count and everything else just doesn't
:14:30. > :14:33.count, which is a ridiculous standard. Most things that we call
:14:34. > :14:37.forms of persecution and hate just would not qualify. I will come to
:14:38. > :14:41.you in a moment on that but what are people saying at home? People are
:14:42. > :14:44.getting in touch with what we like, solutions. Sarah says: If we want to
:14:45. > :15:16.change division... This is not a very lovely to end on
:15:17. > :15:24.but we do like your comments so keep them coming in.
:15:25. > :15:31.Emma, that will spark a debate. Not all cultures are compatible. The
:15:32. > :15:36.thing is, we cannot dismiss what British people in this country are
:15:37. > :15:40.going through. I spend a lot of time talking to people as a journalist,
:15:41. > :15:44.and I've had lots of women contact me to tell me that they are nervous
:15:45. > :15:51.and scared of going out because they visibly look like Muslims. That's a
:15:52. > :15:53.disgrace. If anyone is suggesting that's not happening, or not
:15:54. > :16:00.happening in the way the police figures show, that's not true. So
:16:01. > :16:06.what is sparking the fear? Lived experiences. I was subjected to a
:16:07. > :16:12.hate crime last week. The police are investigating. I urge anyone who is
:16:13. > :16:16.facing physical or verbal abuse on the streets, racial abuse, to tell
:16:17. > :16:21.the police. I have been to the police twice in the last couple of
:16:22. > :16:26.years. This is not a figment of my imagination. I had someone tried to
:16:27. > :16:30.punch me in my face and verbally abused me in my own home city. This
:16:31. > :16:37.didn't happen before. Something is going on here. We shouldn't talk
:16:38. > :16:42.things up to make people anxious and nervous, but we shouldn't pretend
:16:43. > :16:46.it's not happening either. There is context behind everything. How can
:16:47. > :16:52.we heal the divide in society, Tom? We need to stop treating the public
:16:53. > :16:59.like idiots. That is the thing that is the most striking. In the past
:17:00. > :17:02.two years, 36 people have been killed in terror attacks, one of
:17:03. > :17:07.those by a far right extremists. I think people are still bemused that
:17:08. > :17:12.we are having this discussion about far right extremism in the context
:17:13. > :17:16.we are having. Muslim communities are unable to talk about this,
:17:17. > :17:22.despite the fact we know this is a small problem in that community. The
:17:23. > :17:25.second thing that drives it is that the white working class, the belief
:17:26. > :17:33.that the white working class are some kind of pogrom. It's diverted
:17:34. > :17:35.attention. We could continue this debate for a long time, but we are
:17:36. > :17:38.out of time. We've been exploring how to tackle
:17:39. > :17:41.some of the divisions And one way of doing that is to find
:17:42. > :17:53.out more about each other's customs. Today is the Muslim festival of Ede,
:17:54. > :17:58.which marks the end of Ramadan. And Wendy Robbins went along to a tasty
:17:59. > :18:02.event. Chef Brother Sullivan is cooking today for hundreds of
:18:03. > :18:09.people, but they will not get to eat his curry until later tonight. He
:18:10. > :18:14.will not get to sample it, because it is the holy month of Ramadan,
:18:15. > :18:19.where Muslims do not get to eat between sunrise and sunset. I am
:18:20. > :18:29.fasting as well, and I cannot wait until tonight's iftar. I am so
:18:30. > :18:33.hungry. How can you do this to me! I am with Brother Sullivan. He must be
:18:34. > :18:39.one of the most disciplined men in the UK today. You have been fasting
:18:40. > :18:44.for 12 hours? Seven and a half hours to go. Isn't it difficult to cook
:18:45. > :18:52.this delicious food while you are fasting? I do feel hungry. I am
:18:53. > :18:56.starving. How am I going to manage? Just be patient. I'm not the only
:18:57. > :19:01.one for whom this is a new experience. You are not Muslim. Why
:19:02. > :19:08.are you fasting? I am doing it mainly out of solidarity to my
:19:09. > :19:11.Muslim colleagues. We can try to understand how people feel, but
:19:12. > :19:16.until you experience it, you don't know how hard it can be with not
:19:17. > :19:27.having any fluids or food. It's really hard. Brother Sullivan helps
:19:28. > :19:31.supply the open iftar in Central London, where Muslims and
:19:32. > :19:38.non-Muslims get together to break the fast. What it means to me is
:19:39. > :19:43.family, community and solidarity. During the month of fasting, I get
:19:44. > :19:51.to appreciate it, to know what it means to feel first or hunger. How
:19:52. > :19:58.many people are you getting on a nightly basis now? Around 300 or 350
:19:59. > :20:06.people. That's a lot of people. How'd you describe the mix of
:20:07. > :20:11.people? 60 or 70% are of the Islamic faith, and the rest are not of the
:20:12. > :20:16.Islamic faith or are no faith. What does it mean to you to see people
:20:17. > :20:20.like this? We live in the same community but often we do not engage
:20:21. > :20:24.with each other. It is a good opportunity to engage with others
:20:25. > :20:28.and have a meal with them in the heart of London. The fast is broken
:20:29. > :20:38.by eating the traditional dried dates. Now it is time for the main
:20:39. > :20:46.course, the famous chicken curry. Right, I'm going to try your food.
:20:47. > :20:55.Delicious! I could eat three of these. Have you got any more? Yes, I
:20:56. > :21:01.have! I've felt really welcome, and it's been a really enjoyable
:21:02. > :21:04.evening. Just from talking to people and understanding why anyone has
:21:05. > :21:10.different beliefs from you, understanding that and getting to
:21:11. > :21:14.know that is really important. Like you said, it is peculiar to spirit.
:21:15. > :21:19.You wake up and you enjoy it, and you just enjoy being with people.
:21:20. > :21:25.What were your thoughts after the events of Monday night? Yesterday I
:21:26. > :21:32.had my flatmates, and they were like, we really want to come. I
:21:33. > :21:35.said, I didn't invite you last week. They said, after what happened at
:21:36. > :21:41.Finsbury, we need to start together, and we need to show that we are with
:21:42. > :21:46.you. To see non-Muslim people, it's wonderful, you know? It's not just
:21:47. > :21:54.about Muslims. It's about something peaceful that we are doing together.
:21:55. > :21:57.Some are blaming their Muslim counterparts, and we know it's not
:21:58. > :22:03.everybody. But we are singing from the same hymn sheet. It has been a
:22:04. > :22:08.very long day. How have you found your vast? It was much harder than I
:22:09. > :22:12.thought it would be. I was starving for most of the day and I really
:22:13. > :22:16.wanted water, but I'm actually really glad I'd did it. That first
:22:17. > :22:19.taste of food tonight made it worthwhile!
:22:20. > :22:24.Still to come on Sunday Morning Live: What is the Church of England
:22:25. > :22:28.And we greet the sun on the summer solstice at the rave where drink
:22:29. > :22:44.The government said in the speech this week that it is committed to
:22:45. > :22:50.growing the space industry and build a spaceport. Cosmologist Professor
:22:51. > :22:54.Stephen Hawking has added his voice as well, saying we need to be much
:22:55. > :23:01.more ambitious and set our sights on Mars. Professor Tim Peake's exploits
:23:02. > :23:07.last year reignited interest in all things space. This is the view of
:23:08. > :23:12.planet Earth. But Stephen Hawking said in a speech this week that we
:23:13. > :23:16.should look beyond the space station, and sent a mission to the
:23:17. > :23:21.moon by 2020, with a view to setting up a lunar base, which could take 30
:23:22. > :23:28.years to build. He also says we should send people to Mars by 2025.
:23:29. > :23:31.He acknowledges that there are problems on earth to address, with
:23:32. > :23:36.global warming and climate change, but space travel is essential
:23:37. > :23:41.precisely because our planet is under threat, and he predicted no
:23:42. > :23:45.long-term future for humans on Earth.
:23:46. > :23:47.So is Stephen Hawking right or is space exploration just
:23:48. > :23:51.a vanity project and we'd be better off spending the money for the good
:23:52. > :23:54.Joining us now are Sarah Cruddas, a space journalist, and
:23:55. > :23:55.Andrew Simms, an author and campaigner.
:23:56. > :24:02.Sarah, there are serious misgivings about the amount spent on space
:24:03. > :24:09.science. In times of austerity, is it worthwhile? It is generating
:24:10. > :24:15.income, innovation, jobs and inspiration. Humans are built to go
:24:16. > :24:21.over the hill. We explored the earth and we are now looking towards the
:24:22. > :24:24.space, from this one planet in this one average solar system, which is
:24:25. > :24:30.one of many in the universe. To say that we are not going to explore
:24:31. > :24:35.space is myopic. Secondly, going into space is as much about our own
:24:36. > :24:41.planet, and looking back at Earth. Those images you have from space
:24:42. > :24:46.help us to understand that we need to protect and look after this
:24:47. > :24:51.planet. So it is multifaceted why we need to look after space. Andrew,
:24:52. > :24:58.for everyone pound we put in we get ?10 back. Is it a no-brainer? I am
:24:59. > :25:03.of the generation of Star Wars and Star Trek. It's a beautiful thing
:25:04. > :25:07.and we should study it. In the introduction there it said that the
:25:08. > :25:11.one thing space exploration should have taught us is that we should
:25:12. > :25:15.better look after our own planet. But that is not happening. We need
:25:16. > :25:20.to look after this one before we go and mess any others up. There is
:25:21. > :25:28.irony in the danger. For all the effort we put into finding may be
:25:29. > :25:33.microbial life on another planet, we are having mass extinction events on
:25:34. > :25:36.Earth. The moment we start imagining that there is a possible escape
:25:37. > :25:41.route from here, that we might be able to live somewhere else, I think
:25:42. > :25:47.is wildly impractical. It almost gives us a psychological excuse to
:25:48. > :25:53.not look after the very planet we've already got. Let's find out how
:25:54. > :25:58.practical that is. Emma is speaking to someone about that. We are joined
:25:59. > :26:02.by Dr Helen Fraser, a senior lecturer in astronomy at the open
:26:03. > :26:05.University. Do you agree with Stephen Hawking? He suggests we will
:26:06. > :26:12.eventually get to the point of no return on earth. Do you agree? It is
:26:13. > :26:17.a bit difficult. What we do with our space exploration at the moment is
:26:18. > :26:22.we combine robotic and human exploration. Everyone has been very
:26:23. > :26:24.focused this week on the human exploration element, but the whole
:26:25. > :26:29.point of what the government is trying to say with the spaceport is
:26:30. > :26:35.that we have end to end access to space. Everyone has a mobile phone
:26:36. > :26:41.in our pocket with a GPS system, and that is part of our infrastructure
:26:42. > :26:46.here on earth. But do people do a good enough job of communicating the
:26:47. > :26:50.benefits to people? I am already seeing the comments coming in on
:26:51. > :26:53.social media saying, we are living in austerity, so why should we
:26:54. > :26:57.invest in exploration to another planet? It is really important. We
:26:58. > :27:07.should have some perspective on this. What I like to say is that
:27:08. > :27:12.when you get your tax return, at the bottom you get some kind of pie
:27:13. > :27:17.chart with the grass showing where all your money has gone in paying
:27:18. > :27:21.your taxes. A tiny sliver of that is called other, and a tiny sliver of
:27:22. > :27:26.that is all the money the government, as opposed to industry,
:27:27. > :27:31.is investing into the space industry and space technology and research.
:27:32. > :27:36.The space research, this opportunity to simply go and explore, is a very
:27:37. > :27:42.tiny part. The majority of the money in the space industry is related to
:27:43. > :27:47.looking down at the Earth, disaster relief, trying to get Internet to
:27:48. > :27:52.third World countries, trying to exploit space opportunities and
:27:53. > :27:57.lower Earth orbit for the benefit of mankind on earth. You've done a good
:27:58. > :28:03.job of answering your critics there. Back to the studio. A tiny sliver of
:28:04. > :28:09.money. It's hardly any money. We've got GPS, disaster relief, solar
:28:10. > :28:16.panels, cellphone... Space gives us so much on earth. If it is focused
:28:17. > :28:20.on the things that allow us to better understand ourselves and to
:28:21. > :28:24.better live on planet Earth, that is great. But in the same Queen's
:28:25. > :28:29.Speech that announced this package, there was no action to correct the
:28:30. > :28:32.problem in the way that money going into renewable energy, vital for
:28:33. > :28:39.tackling climate change, there was no action on that. We are a
:28:40. > :28:43.situation where inconsistent policy and withdrawal of funds from
:28:44. > :28:48.renewable energy looks like we are going to see a 95% drop in renewable
:28:49. > :28:53.energy. Let's use it intelligently, but remember that we can look at the
:28:54. > :28:58.stars, dream about them and study them, but let's not be tempted to
:28:59. > :29:01.think we can escape planet Earth. The way we explore space is
:29:02. > :29:07.changing. It used to be about government in it is now about
:29:08. > :29:11.private industry. The guy behind Amazon is looking at moving
:29:12. > :29:16.manufacturing off earth so that we can save planet Earth. It's not
:29:17. > :29:21.about living on Mars, it's about improving our planet and improving
:29:22. > :29:28.the technology we have. It is the technology that comes from space and
:29:29. > :29:30.how we can utilise low Earth orbit for manufacturing, asteroid mining,
:29:31. > :29:38.things that will improve life on Earth. You could think of the Moon
:29:39. > :29:42.landings as being the Columbus moment, and we are now at the
:29:43. > :29:46.Mayflower moment. You have to explore the technology that can
:29:47. > :29:52.improve life on Earth. Not sure if there is life out there on space.
:29:53. > :29:56.The viewers are divided on this. Caroline has said, can we just leave
:29:57. > :30:33.the other planets alone? Thank you for all those comments.
:30:34. > :30:36.Let's talk about the next generation. There could be a little
:30:37. > :30:40.kid watching this it was inspired and goes on to save the earth by
:30:41. > :30:45.working out which planet we could live on. This is really important
:30:46. > :30:48.for future generations. I have got a daughter that I have taken to any
:30:49. > :30:53.number of space exhibits and she is fascinated. We used to watch videos
:30:54. > :30:57.of rockets taking off and the space shuttle. Absolutely. But let's keep
:30:58. > :31:01.focused on the need to work things out where we are now. We are losing
:31:02. > :31:06.the climate in which human civilisation evolved. And with the
:31:07. > :31:11.best technology available, if you want to get a person to the nearest
:31:12. > :31:19.earth like planet, it would take longer than history of civilisation.
:31:20. > :31:25.But technology changes at rates that we can't understand. It extends
:31:26. > :31:28.thousands of years. When we start the industrialisation of space, we
:31:29. > :31:33.start to repeat the same economic model that we made a mess of an
:31:34. > :31:36.earth. Curiosity is the essence of human existence. How can you be a
:31:37. > :31:41.child born in this country inspired by Tim Peake and not be able to work
:31:42. > :31:47.in this country? There is so much more out there. For every star you
:31:48. > :31:48.see in the night sky, there are at least as many more planets. That was
:31:49. > :31:54.more than one word! Thank you. For an actor, playing the lead role
:31:55. > :31:57.in a Shakespearean play can be a real career high,
:31:58. > :31:58.with the villainous That was certainly the case
:31:59. > :32:05.for Mat Fraser who has just finished playing him as part of events
:32:06. > :32:07.to commemorate Hull's year Mat was born with underdeveloped
:32:08. > :32:11.arms after his mother took the drug He's said to be the first disabled
:32:12. > :32:33.actor to play Richard III March on! Let us go if not to have
:32:34. > :32:37.and then hand in hand to hell! Richard III, I just can't get my
:32:38. > :32:41.head around the fact that you're the first disabled actor to take it on.
:32:42. > :32:46.Were you surprised to learn that you would be? On one level I was very
:32:47. > :32:50.surprised, but on another level pretty much every job I do I tend to
:32:51. > :32:58.be the first disabled person who did that thing so it is par for the
:32:59. > :33:01.course of my career. I understand that you found the language of
:33:02. > :33:07.Shakespeare around disability quite liberating. It was the 1500s. The
:33:08. > :33:10.work of the devil. Richard had a lot of self-loathing and it is glorious
:33:11. > :33:20.liberation to be able to play that to the hilt. Said before my time
:33:21. > :33:28.into this world. So unfashionable that dogs bark at me. For those that
:33:29. > :33:32.don't remember the thalidomide scandal, what has your mother told
:33:33. > :33:36.you about when you were born? After I had been born, I was taken away
:33:37. > :33:40.and she waited for two hours and thought something was wrong and then
:33:41. > :33:44.after four she thought the baby was dead. So when I was brought in to
:33:45. > :33:48.have a shocking announcement about my short arms, she was just relieved
:33:49. > :33:53.that I was alive. She loved my face and said it was like looking at the
:33:54. > :33:59.face of an old friend and she immediately felt connection. The
:34:00. > :34:03.rest took care of itself. You started out drumming. I did. My
:34:04. > :34:07.mother had a friend who was a drummer who left his get round my
:34:08. > :34:12.place. Then punk happened, which was very much it doesn't matter who you
:34:13. > :34:15.are and what you are because you can be in a band. All these things
:34:16. > :34:19.conspired at the same time to make me think I could be a drummer. And
:34:20. > :34:26.in 2012 you ended up drumming with a rather famous band. Yes, I did God
:34:27. > :34:32.Put A Smile On Your Face with Coldplay at the Olympic ceremony.
:34:33. > :34:35.And seconds before we went on there was a moment when I looked up and
:34:36. > :34:39.thought there were lots of people. Please don't let me drop my sticks!
:34:40. > :34:48.But then I looked around and saw the band next to me and realised I knew
:34:49. > :34:52.how to do it. How did you get into acting? What was the motivation for
:34:53. > :34:56.that? I English teacher when I was 13. I loved him and he loved me, but
:34:57. > :35:00.when I announced my intention to audition for the school play, and
:35:01. > :35:04.saw his face, I thought he was embarrassed and scared and I
:35:05. > :35:07.wondered why. I thought about it and it dissuaded me from an acting
:35:08. > :35:13.career at that point. Then in 1994 at the Oval house theatre I saw a
:35:14. > :35:18.production about cerebral palsy and the whole audience of non-disabled
:35:19. > :35:24.people were laughing and enjoying themselves and I thought that I was
:35:25. > :35:28.wrong. I have my rights. You are not even American. I have the right to
:35:29. > :35:33.refuse service and I am refusing to serve you. This place is overpriced
:35:34. > :35:40.anyway. Your breakthrough came with the US hit drama American Horror
:35:41. > :35:44.Story. Yes, C Rees four was set in a freak show in 1952 and I played
:35:45. > :35:48.Paul. You haven't sold a single ticket. We only put up the banner
:35:49. > :35:54.half an hour ago. The town hasn't gotten wind of your new act. I read
:35:55. > :35:57.that you came out as disabled. Why did you use that language? I use
:35:58. > :36:02.that phrase because we all understand it from a gay
:36:03. > :36:04.perspective. Up until that point I wasn't comfortable in the company of
:36:05. > :36:09.young kids because they would ask why my arms were like that. I didn't
:36:10. > :36:14.want to talk about it. I went to an audition for judge Dredd, this'll
:36:15. > :36:18.celesta Stallone film, for the job as a mutant and I didn't get the job
:36:19. > :36:23.because I am a mutant. It messed with my head so much that I broke
:36:24. > :36:28.down and I had this hugely emotional moment where I realised I had been
:36:29. > :36:32.living a pretence for a lot of my life and I just couldn't do it any
:36:33. > :36:38.more. I am disabled, deal with it or get out of my life. I was 30. It
:36:39. > :36:43.took a while. On the way through this varied career, do you have a
:36:44. > :36:47.belief system? What gets you through? I'm not religious at all. I
:36:48. > :36:51.am a hard-core atheist but I believe that everything is energy. If all
:36:52. > :36:55.energy is omnipresent, which it is because it is everything, and that
:36:56. > :37:01.is also God, it is where me and my mum, who is a Church of England
:37:02. > :37:07.lady, Canterbury on the nature of existence. This idea that God is
:37:08. > :37:10.energy and energy is God. -- we can agree on the nature of existence.
:37:11. > :37:14.You live in America and you are trying to import a hugely special
:37:15. > :37:18.part of our culture, pantomime. Doing jack and the Beanstalk at my
:37:19. > :37:22.local theatre, the lady will not wait around to be fallen in love
:37:23. > :37:26.with. She will do the rescuing. The whole community will have to chop
:37:27. > :37:31.down the Beanstalk. I want to imbue this sense of community plurality
:37:32. > :37:34.into our version. Do you think below is side of New York is ready for
:37:35. > :37:38.British pantomime? They are not ready because they don't know what
:37:39. > :37:42.they will get but hopefully when they engage, they will get it back.
:37:43. > :37:44.I wish you the best of luck. Thank you.
:37:45. > :37:46.The Church of England is doing some serious soul searching
:37:47. > :37:49.after the conclusions of a damning report this week into
:37:50. > :37:53.The review, An Abuse Of Faith, by Dame Moira Gibb says that senior
:37:54. > :37:55.figures in the Church colluded with a former bishop
:37:56. > :38:00.The case concerns Peter Ball, now 85,
:38:01. > :38:04.who was jailed for 32 months in October 2015 after admitting
:38:05. > :38:06.sex offences against 18 teenagers and young men.
:38:07. > :38:09.The offences were carried out between
:38:10. > :38:14.The Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, says the report makes
:38:15. > :38:17.Martin Bashir, the BBC's religious affairs correspondent,
:38:18. > :38:23.has been looking into this story and joins us now.
:38:24. > :38:33.This report does not make pleasant reading for the church. Even the
:38:34. > :38:37.title, And Abuse Of Faith, is very pointed. It is a devastating
:38:38. > :38:41.critique of the church of the 1990s, which was more concerned about its
:38:42. > :38:45.reputation than it was about the children and their welfare. In fact
:38:46. > :38:51.it goes further. Dame Moira Gibb, the head of social services at
:38:52. > :38:54.Kensington and Chelsea Council, says that the church actually colluded
:38:55. > :38:57.with Peter Ball's predatory behaviour. This is what she said
:38:58. > :39:05.when I spoke to her immediately after publication. Even though it
:39:06. > :39:10.was 25 years ago and our understanding of abuse, particularly
:39:11. > :39:14.of adults then, is different to what it is now, by any standards I think
:39:15. > :39:20.we would have to say that the response is lamentable. Lamentable?
:39:21. > :39:26.Indeed. You used the word colluding. Lamentable. What do they mean by
:39:27. > :39:31.that? When Peter Ball accepted a police caution in 1993 for gross
:39:32. > :39:34.indecency and stepped down as the Bishop of Gloucester, seven
:39:35. > :39:37.individual young men wrote to the Archbishop of Canterbury, then
:39:38. > :39:42.George Carey, at Lambeth Palace. Not one of those letters was passed to
:39:43. > :39:47.the police. In fact George Carey didn't even put Peter Ball's name on
:39:48. > :39:50.something known as the Lambeth list, a Rolodex, catalogue of individuals
:39:51. > :39:55.about whom there were serious questions about their ongoing
:39:56. > :39:59.ministry. The current Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, has
:40:00. > :40:03.actually asked now Lord Carey to stand down from the only position he
:40:04. > :40:07.currently holds, which is honorary assistant Bishop in the diocese of
:40:08. > :40:12.Oxford. How is the church going to stop this kind of thing happening
:40:13. > :40:15.again in the future? Dame Moira Gibb says the church has overhauled all
:40:16. > :40:20.of its practices and there is training for every ordained
:40:21. > :40:23.clergyman or member of the clergy. There are individual officers
:40:24. > :40:27.appointed in every diocese and the church has got to report immediately
:40:28. > :40:32.allegations of abuse to the authorities. The church has also
:40:33. > :40:36.appointed Bishop responsible for the entire Church of England. He is the
:40:37. > :40:41.Bishop of Bath and Wells, Peter Hancock. He also spoke to us after
:40:42. > :40:44.the publication of the report. It is very clear that the church failed.
:40:45. > :40:49.It failed consistently in a number of areas and in a number of ways and
:40:50. > :40:53.therefore it compounded the abuse, the appalling abuse, that Peter Ball
:40:54. > :40:57.and acted upon his victims. It is then that we think of particularly
:40:58. > :41:02.today. Therefore we offer them a wholehearted apology. Do you think
:41:03. > :41:06.the survivors of the abuse will feel vindicated by this? We have spoken
:41:07. > :41:08.to several and they say there are parts of the report that they are
:41:09. > :41:14.pleased with but the fact of the matter is that it has taken 25 years
:41:15. > :41:17.to see any kind of justice. I don't think you will find many survivors
:41:18. > :41:21.or victims of Peter Ball applauding the Church of England for this
:41:22. > :41:22.report today. It is worth pointing out that Lord Carey has apologised
:41:23. > :41:26.to the victims. Thank you. Many of us enjoyed,
:41:27. > :41:29.or in my case endured, Sun worshippers were sweating
:41:30. > :41:32.all over the place. But we're on a downward
:41:33. > :41:34.slope because the days That's because the longest day,
:41:35. > :41:37.the summer solstice, It's always celebrated amidst
:41:38. > :41:44.the beautiful stones at the ancient site of Stonehenge but also
:41:45. > :42:04.at rather more modern places too, It is the middle of the night and I
:42:05. > :42:13.have just arrived for an event at the Shard. I am not sure what to
:42:14. > :42:17.expect but I can't wait to find out. I'm heading for a party, glittering
:42:18. > :42:21.event to mark the summer solstice. We are going up to the 68th floor. I
:42:22. > :42:27.wonder what will be up there. Others are heading to the Shard in London
:42:28. > :42:34.to celebrate the longest day in the UK's highest building, nearly 800
:42:35. > :42:40.feet above the capital. They are gathering for Morning Gloryville,
:42:41. > :42:44.part of the conscious clothing movement. I don't know what that is
:42:45. > :42:49.either but I am hoping that Sam Mayo can enlighten me. I want to look the
:42:50. > :42:55.part. I have got flowers with me but no glitter. Don't worry. I have got
:42:56. > :42:58.glitter! What is Morning Gloryville? It is an immersive conscious
:42:59. > :43:03.experience where we get everyone to raise their way into the day. It is
:43:04. > :43:08.about community, it is about positivity, it is about love, and it
:43:09. > :43:12.is really about inspiring society to start making positive change in the
:43:13. > :43:18.world. Our events are first thing in the morning, from 6:30am, until
:43:19. > :43:26.10:30am usually. What can I expect? We are going to walk into Gong
:43:27. > :43:30.meditation and we are going to get cleansed by lovely sounds. Then we
:43:31. > :43:34.will go into the solstice sun hailing ceremony led by two
:43:35. > :43:47.ceremonial list, and shaming, pagan and an energy priestess. -- a
:43:48. > :43:51.Shaman. We will really be connecting with nature. It is five o'clock and
:43:52. > :43:54.I would normally be in bed but here they are connecting with the biggest
:43:55. > :43:57.moment of the summer solstice, the rising of the sun. Other people hear
:43:58. > :44:08.it seems to be an uplifting experience. Everyone who would like
:44:09. > :44:16.to welcome the angels and guides, please say yes. Yes! Fantastic. I
:44:17. > :44:20.didn't join this bit but everyone else seemed happy to carry on
:44:21. > :44:24.regardless. This is an opportunity to honour the four directions,
:44:25. > :44:30.north, south, east and west and the energies of what they hold. When we
:44:31. > :44:34.do that, it takes us into a sacred space and an understanding that
:44:35. > :44:39.without north, south, east and west, we don't exist. The summer solstice
:44:40. > :44:44.is a marker of time, really. It shows us that every day is
:44:45. > :44:49.different. To appreciate that, everything changes from one day to
:44:50. > :44:54.the next. It is pagan, it is an earthy conscious get-together. The
:44:55. > :44:58.faith is in the heart. Ceremony is over, it is time for the rave to
:44:59. > :45:08.start. Included in the ?45 price tag. But at this party there is
:45:09. > :45:12.strictly no drugs and no alcohol. When you are in a city that is
:45:13. > :45:15.fuelled with many different substances and energies and you are
:45:16. > :45:21.clubbing with lots of types of music, to be able to come to a space
:45:22. > :45:26.that is so clear, you can gain that confidence. You're not taking
:45:27. > :45:27.anything, you are ready in your own spirit, and you can go wow, this is
:45:28. > :45:40.just incredible. I went to the bar for a quick shot
:45:41. > :45:44.of lemon and ginger. Lovely. I think Morning Gloryville is a celebration
:45:45. > :45:53.of diversity. People are all different ages, colours,
:45:54. > :45:58.ethnicities... This morning we had the gong bar opening ceremony. Today
:45:59. > :46:02.has had that extra element. We started in the most amazing way, to
:46:03. > :46:12.greet the summer for the summer solstice. I chose to join the yoga
:46:13. > :46:16.activity. I need to wind down! Doing yoga up The Shard. That is pretty
:46:17. > :46:20.cool. It is hard to believe it is 8am and down below people are
:46:21. > :46:30.heading to work. Then, it's all over. This was probably one of the
:46:31. > :46:35.most eclectic gatherings of people I've ever witnessed. I'm not sure
:46:36. > :46:39.about how much the spiritual aspects of this event counted with the
:46:40. > :46:43.partygoers, but they all seemed positive and energetic, and at least
:46:44. > :46:47.went home without hangovers, after a group hug.
:46:48. > :46:51.Now our final discussion - and it's a controversial one.
:46:52. > :46:53.The British Medical Association will this week be deciding
:46:54. > :46:55.whether to recommend that abortion be decriminalised.
:46:56. > :47:00.The existing time limit is 24 weeks from conception.
:47:01. > :47:04.Even then, two doctors must agree that continuing the pregnancy
:47:05. > :47:07.would be harmful for either the woman or the unborn child.
:47:08. > :47:09.In Northern Ireland, the law is much stricter.
:47:10. > :47:13.Terminations are only permitted if a woman's life is at risk
:47:14. > :47:15.or there is a permanent or serious risk
:47:16. > :47:21.But the BMA conference, which starts today in Bournemouth, will debate
:47:22. > :47:24.whether women should be allowed to terminate their pregnancy right
:47:25. > :47:28.up until the due date, and for any reason.
:47:29. > :47:30.Joining the panel now are Kate Smurthwaite,
:47:31. > :47:39.Caroline Farrow, a Catholic broadcaster and writer,
:47:40. > :47:42.and we are rejoined by the sociologist Ben Carrington and
:47:43. > :47:57.Kate, starting with you. We will get your title right this time! The
:47:58. > :48:02.current law gives the right for someone to choose whether or not to
:48:03. > :48:09.have their baby. Surely 24 weeks is enough time? For the vast majority
:48:10. > :48:13.of women, of course. The vast majority of terminations happened a
:48:14. > :48:18.long time before that. Most people realise they are pregnant and that
:48:19. > :48:23.they don't want the baby very soon. But there is a number of women for
:48:24. > :48:28.whom the problems arise after 24 weeks, like women who are too young
:48:29. > :48:31.to be having periods so they do not realise they can get pregnant. They
:48:32. > :48:37.may not know anything about the facts of life and being abused. They
:48:38. > :48:40.find out they are pregnant at 25 weeks, and what often happens is
:48:41. > :48:44.they are taken out of the UK to another country where the law is
:48:45. > :48:48.different and doesn't have the 24 week limit. This is horrific. These
:48:49. > :48:52.are women who have gone through all sorts of awful things. We're not
:48:53. > :48:56.saying we want to keep having abortions up until the end of the
:48:57. > :49:00.pregnancy term. We are saying that this is a difficult decision, and
:49:01. > :49:04.the decision shouldn't be made by the government or the authorities.
:49:05. > :49:10.It should be made privately between a woman and her doctor having a
:49:11. > :49:14.sensible conversation with all the facts in front of them and deciding
:49:15. > :49:19.what is right for her. Would you set a time limit? That is a conversation
:49:20. > :49:23.between a woman and a doctor. For me, sure, there's a time where I
:49:24. > :49:26.wouldn't feel comfortable with it, but we shouldn't push that to
:49:27. > :49:31.someone else. Should it ever be a crime for a woman to do what she
:49:32. > :49:35.wants to with her body? We have to remember in the case of an abortion
:49:36. > :49:40.with the pregnant woman, the baby is not part of the woman's body, it is
:49:41. > :49:45.separate and independent of the woman. It doesn't even have a
:49:46. > :49:54.parasitic relationship. It's not just a question of what a woman does
:49:55. > :49:56.with her body, but the rights of the unborn child. Every single
:49:57. > :50:00.embryology textbook, undisputed scientific fact is that human life
:50:01. > :50:05.is formed at conception, and what happens after that is a matter of
:50:06. > :50:11.great social and moral public interest. It's not a private matter.
:50:12. > :50:16.Human life is formed at conception, Emma? We are joined by Matthew
:50:17. > :50:21.Piccaver, a GP working in Suffolk. What is the process the getting an
:50:22. > :50:26.abortion in Britain? For the majority of the cases I see, a woman
:50:27. > :50:35.will discover she's pregnant early on, we will have a discussion about
:50:36. > :50:38.what she would like to do with the pregnancy, and then it is a fair
:50:39. > :50:44.amount of paperwork for me, then referred to a clinic at the local
:50:45. > :50:47.hospital, then referred to another doctor for some counselling, and
:50:48. > :50:51.options are discussed from there. Watched you think of the argument
:50:52. > :50:55.that people come in and take those decisions lightly, they haven't
:50:56. > :51:00.thought about what they want? I would struggle to agree with that,
:51:01. > :51:04.because people I meet who are coming in to talk about termination of
:51:05. > :51:09.pregnancy have thought long and hard about it before booking their
:51:10. > :51:15.appointment with me. I would struggle to find a case in my
:51:16. > :51:19.experience of that. It's not everybody, but I would struggle to
:51:20. > :51:23.fight a case where that decision hasn't thoroughly been thought
:51:24. > :51:27.through and discussed by loved ones, friends and family, partners and so
:51:28. > :51:31.on. What do you make of the protesters that stand outside
:51:32. > :51:37.abortion clinics, a site we are seeing more and more in the UK? It
:51:38. > :51:41.is a difficult question. We have the right to discuss our opinions. As a
:51:42. > :51:47.doctor, my job is not to be a barrier to the care of the woman in
:51:48. > :51:50.need. Looking at some of the historical cases in what some people
:51:51. > :51:58.did in the past in order to procure an abortion, I think the harms of
:51:59. > :52:03.having a medical termination can be much less than those caused by home
:52:04. > :52:08.abortions and so on. The horror stories we heard and the death that
:52:09. > :52:11.resulted from that. If the law was changed to allow abortion right up
:52:12. > :52:16.to the due date, or later than we have at the moment, do you think we
:52:17. > :52:23.would see a rise in those abortions? I'm not convinced we would. The
:52:24. > :52:28.number of abortions that occur, 90% occur before 13 weeks. A small
:52:29. > :52:37.proportion occur after that date, for things such as serious deformity
:52:38. > :52:41.to the developing foetus, and also potential significant harms to
:52:42. > :52:47.women. Those are measuring in the hundreds, so a fairly small amount a
:52:48. > :52:53.year. Thank you for telling us what you have seen in your GP surgery.
:52:54. > :52:59.Emma, thank you. Ruth, can you say why people think abortion is
:53:00. > :53:05.acceptable, especially in the early stages? Yes, I can. I hate
:53:06. > :53:09.everything I know about it, but I wouldn't insist that somebody who'd
:53:10. > :53:13.been raped or somebody in terrible trauma shouldn't be allowed to have
:53:14. > :53:18.an abortion. But what I would say is that you should never bought a
:53:19. > :53:21.viable baby. I think that is atrocious. I cannot see the
:53:22. > :53:25.difference between that and straightforward murder. So there is
:53:26. > :53:29.a moral difference between a collection of cells and a foetus?
:53:30. > :53:35.Yes. We are talking about children who are viable being aborted, and
:53:36. > :53:41.that is monstrous. Is it not monstrous to kill of foetuses
:53:42. > :53:44.because they are one gender or another? This comes up every time
:53:45. > :53:49.when we start to talk about abortion, this discussion of rape or
:53:50. > :53:55.incest. We end up having a conversation about the right reasons
:53:56. > :54:03.for abortion,' is. I look at it from a different perspective. What are
:54:04. > :54:08.the right reasons to force a woman to be pregnant against her will? For
:54:09. > :54:13.me, that is a cruel and unusual punishment. I'm somebody who's had a
:54:14. > :54:16.termination, which was overseas in a country with different rules. I
:54:17. > :54:21.didn't know what the rules were when I realised I was pregnant and I
:54:22. > :54:24.didn't want to be. But what ever the law had been, what ever the
:54:25. > :54:37.circumstances where abortion was available, I would have gone in and
:54:38. > :54:39.said, yes, that's me. If they'd said, only if you've been raped, I
:54:40. > :54:42.would have said, yes, I've been raped. I would have lied about my
:54:43. > :54:47.age. There's nothing I wouldn't have lied about. We put restrictions on
:54:48. > :54:52.abortion, but what I hear is, go and lie to your doctor. And that is a
:54:53. > :55:01.bad place. Should the Lord get involved in this, then? Yes.
:55:02. > :55:06.Sometimes we assume that people aren't against abortions. I would
:55:07. > :55:10.assume everyone is against abortion, in the same way we are against heart
:55:11. > :55:15.attacks. But the question is, should the person who is involved have a
:55:16. > :55:21.right to decide what happens? And I think, yes. We are focusing on this
:55:22. > :55:26.24 weeks. The key is to decriminalise abortion in the first
:55:27. > :55:31.place. There are discussions coming from the US that are often around
:55:32. > :55:36.women's health care. In a state like Texas there have been a tremendous
:55:37. > :55:41.attack on women rights and access to abortion. Texas has some of the
:55:42. > :55:45.worst infant mortality rates in the Western world, and that is directly
:55:46. > :55:49.connected to the religious right attack on the right of women to have
:55:50. > :56:18.an abortion. A mix of views here. What about at home?
:56:19. > :56:27.Access to abortions should be a human rights. A mix of views there.
:56:28. > :56:32.It is really encouraging to see people admitting that abortion is a
:56:33. > :56:37.tragedy, and the right to life. There was a poll carried out a
:56:38. > :56:43.couple of weeks ago in May, and it showed that our legislation is out
:56:44. > :56:48.of step with public opinion, and seriously so. 70% of women who were
:56:49. > :56:55.polled think that the current abortion limit at 24 weeks is too
:56:56. > :56:59.high. Over 90% of women want to see sex selective abortion illegal. When
:57:00. > :57:04.parliament voted on it, they said, no, we will keep it as it is, so
:57:05. > :57:11.technically, someone can abort a baby because it is the wrong sex.
:57:12. > :57:17.79% of women want to see a mandatory five day consultation period before
:57:18. > :57:22.a woman has an abortion. I think it was over 76% want to make sure that
:57:23. > :57:29.two doctors sign off on it to make sure a woman is not coerced. We talk
:57:30. > :57:32.about safe, legal abortion. Last year, the Care Quality Commission,
:57:33. > :57:41.who regulates abortion clinics, temporarily shut down a clinic. They
:57:42. > :57:47.also produced a damning report of a clinic in Merseyside. These are
:57:48. > :57:51.damning things. This situation is, you can find a poll that shows all
:57:52. > :57:57.sorts of things. When we put these restrictions on abortion, like the
:57:58. > :58:01.thing in Northern Ireland and people travelling over every week, what
:58:02. > :58:04.happens is that women who are wealthy, well educated and have
:58:05. > :58:11.freedom will travel and get the service they want. These
:58:12. > :58:19.restrictions put restrictions on poor, working-class women. Thank you
:58:20. > :58:23.very much for a good debate. That is nearly all from us this week.
:58:24. > :58:25.Many thanks to all our guests and you at home
:58:26. > :58:29.But why don't you join Emma for live chat online after the show?
:58:30. > :58:31.Yes, I'll be talking to Sarah Cruddas about space exploration.
:58:32. > :58:34.So why don't you boldly go with me to
:58:35. > :58:40.In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole