0:00:05 > 0:00:08Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. I'm Sean Fletcher.
0:00:08 > 0:00:11On today's programme, a senior cabinet minister resigns and other
0:00:11 > 0:00:12MPs are under investigation.
0:00:12 > 0:00:16But are we taking sexual harassment seriously enough?
0:00:16 > 0:00:19Celebrities gather to launch a new scheme to provide
0:00:19 > 0:00:22meals for the homeless - James Bond movie star Naomie Harris
0:00:22 > 0:00:30tells us why it's needed.
0:00:30 > 0:00:35The idea of not having a roof over your head, not having a warm meal in
0:00:35 > 0:00:38your stomach, I just think in a country as advanced as Britain
0:00:38 > 0:00:40nobody should have two suffer that.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42And poet Benjamin Zephaniah reveals why he's been
0:00:42 > 0:00:46studying Tai Chi in China.
0:00:46 > 0:00:54You are not a body that has a spirit or a soul. You are a soul that has a
0:00:54 > 0:00:54body.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56All that coming up.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58And Emma Barnett is here ready to sample your views.
0:00:58 > 0:00:59Morning, Emma.
0:00:59 > 0:01:00Morning, Sean.
0:01:00 > 0:01:02We want you to be part of our debates.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04You can contact us by Facebook and Twitter -
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0:01:15 > 0:01:18However you choose to get in touch, please don't forget
0:01:18 > 0:01:21to include your name so I can get hear your views on the items
0:01:21 > 0:01:23in the programme.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25Martin Luther rocked the church establishment 500 years ago -
0:01:25 > 0:01:27and we'll be discussing whether there needs
0:01:27 > 0:01:29to be a new Reformation.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32And we meet a young painter, paralysed from the neck
0:01:32 > 0:01:34down after an accident, who has become an
0:01:34 > 0:01:37inspiration to others.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46Now any opportunity that comes to me, I just say yes.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49At least I can say I tried it.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57First, it started in Hollywood, but now the sexual harassment focus
0:01:57 > 0:01:59has shifted to the House of Commons.
0:01:59 > 0:02:02Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon, one
0:02:02 > 0:02:05of the most senor members of the Government, has resigned.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07And MPs from both Labour and the Conservative parties
0:02:07 > 0:02:10are under investigation over alleged inappropriate behavior,
0:02:10 > 0:02:13which they deny.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15Tomorrow, the Prime Minister meets opposition leaders to discuss
0:02:15 > 0:02:17the introduction of a new grievance procedure for Parliamentary
0:02:17 > 0:02:21staff and MPs.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24One backbencher said the scandal was turning into a witch hunt.
0:02:24 > 0:02:28But Labour MP Harriet Harman responded that "it
0:02:28 > 0:02:34isn't a witch hunt, it's long overdue".
0:02:34 > 0:02:39A short time ago on the Andrew Marr show, Home Secretary Amber Rudd was
0:02:39 > 0:02:43adamant they needed to be radical changes in the way harassment is
0:02:43 > 0:02:49dealt with.What we have seen is the abuse of power, in particular, and
0:02:49 > 0:02:52the widespread cultural change that needs to take place as we recognise
0:02:52 > 0:02:56that. We will be recognising that. We are going to be making changes
0:02:56 > 0:02:58and it has to be -- it has to stop.
0:02:58 > 0:03:00Joining us now to give their views are
0:03:00 > 0:03:02Sophie Walker, the leader of the Women's Equality Party.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04India Willoughby is a TV presenter.
0:03:04 > 0:03:05Naomi Firsht is a journalist.
0:03:05 > 0:03:10And Musa Okwonga is a poet and writer.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13Sophie, are you surprised by the amount of revelations we have had?
0:03:13 > 0:03:20No, not at all. This country voted last year to take back control.
0:03:20 > 0:03:25Women are taking back control now of their bodies. They are refusing the
0:03:25 > 0:03:29idea that this was ever acceptable. It wasn't acceptable 15 years ago,
0:03:29 > 0:03:34it is not acceptable now. And this classic diversion into a discussion
0:03:34 > 0:03:39about witch witch-hunt and hysteria is just that. It is a diversion from
0:03:39 > 0:03:45the fact that men know where to draw the line. And they are not harassing
0:03:45 > 0:03:49anybody who can fire them. They are not harassing anybody in positions
0:03:49 > 0:03:53of authority. That also reveals that what this is about is a major
0:03:53 > 0:03:58imbalance of power between men and women.People say it is a witchhunt
0:03:58 > 0:04:02because it is trial by Twitter, trial by the Internet, before people
0:04:02 > 0:04:08can give their side of the story? No, what is happening is we are
0:04:08 > 0:04:10using words we have had for centuries whenever women challenge
0:04:10 > 0:04:17the idea that popular powerful or even ordinary men could also be
0:04:17 > 0:04:24harassers and sexual abusers. They say they are mad, they are liars,
0:04:24 > 0:04:30this Be happening. When you look at the specifics of these cases, these
0:04:30 > 0:04:35are people who have reported, and in most cases been told it is dealt
0:04:35 > 0:04:41with, it has been dismissed, be careful about your careers or be
0:04:41 > 0:04:45careful what will happen to you next... We have seen these women
0:04:45 > 0:04:49being taken apart in the media. The idea that these are women who are
0:04:49 > 0:04:53looking for attention or somehow victimising themselves given the way
0:04:53 > 0:04:59that they are greeted is folly. Naomi, Harriet Harman says it is
0:04:59 > 0:05:05long overdue. Men will clean up their act, they will sort themselves
0:05:05 > 0:05:11out and this sort of behaviour won't happen?There is a bit of a trial by
0:05:11 > 0:05:16Twitter going on. That is quite apt. This is becoming a bit hysterical.
0:05:16 > 0:05:23We are seeing more panic. What worries me is that we are seeing
0:05:23 > 0:05:27this conflation of very serious allegations. These need to be dealt
0:05:27 > 0:05:32with very seriously. We are also seeing allegations of someone
0:05:32 > 0:05:39touching someone's knee. Somebody sending a text message that is at
0:05:39 > 0:05:43worst sexually flirtatious. That is not sexual harassment. We should not
0:05:43 > 0:05:49be lumping these things together. That denigrate serious crime like
0:05:49 > 0:05:59rate. -- rape. It criminalises innocent behaviour. Like flirty text
0:05:59 > 0:06:02messages, which is not sexual harassment. We need to draw the
0:06:02 > 0:06:12line.Criminalising normal behaviour?This isn't so much as a
0:06:12 > 0:06:15witchhunt than the tip of an iceberg. It is a great opportunity
0:06:15 > 0:06:18to have this conversation not just in Hollywood in Westminster but in
0:06:18 > 0:06:24relation to our own industry, spoken word.As a man do you fear you are
0:06:24 > 0:06:31being lumped in with this?No, I don't feel that. Unsolicited
0:06:31 > 0:06:34advances, sexual harassment are all branches of the century. They exist
0:06:34 > 0:06:41on a continuum. Word-macro happens when power is wielded a woman to the
0:06:41 > 0:06:49nth degree. -- rape.I don't think you can say a 30 text messages on
0:06:49 > 0:06:54the same level as a rape allegation. You might get a flirty text message,
0:06:54 > 0:06:59somebody groping you on the tube, summary asking you out to dinner to
0:06:59 > 0:07:02discuss a promotion. More than likely you will get all of those,
0:07:02 > 0:07:09this is about the two minute of the fact. When we say that this is OK,
0:07:09 > 0:07:12we also say that the stuff at the other end is OK. And frankly, we are
0:07:12 > 0:07:19living in a country where 11 rapes are reported an hour, one in four
0:07:19 > 0:07:24women have experience of domestic abuse. 50% or more of women have
0:07:24 > 0:07:28experienced sexual harassment at work. We have to call this what it
0:07:28 > 0:07:31is. Violence against women and girls and it happens every layer of our
0:07:31 > 0:07:38society.India, Ruth Davidson said it is time to clear out the stables
0:07:38 > 0:07:44with some pretty big shovels.It is the same problem. If you get men and
0:07:44 > 0:07:49women in close proximity, there will always be flirting, affairs and
0:07:49 > 0:07:53confusion over what signals are given. Who would be a man at the
0:07:53 > 0:07:56moment? Certainly not me. There is an arrogance of biology at play
0:07:56 > 0:08:06here. At the end of the day men are, or male species throughout biology,
0:08:06 > 0:08:11are the predators, women are seen often as the more submissive side.
0:08:11 > 0:08:18That is putting people in a box, isn't it?I think it is true.I'm
0:08:18 > 0:08:25not a predator.Maybe not a predator but the dominant species. I think it
0:08:25 > 0:08:29is blown out of context. Nobody in this panel will approve the likes of
0:08:29 > 0:08:36Harvey Weinstein what he has been up two. But when we are talking about
0:08:36 > 0:08:39somebody touching somebody's need ten years ago and they lose their
0:08:39 > 0:08:43job, what are we going to do? Are we going to prosecute people for
0:08:43 > 0:08:48bear-baiting?He was forcing himself on people. He wasn't touching
0:08:48 > 0:08:55people's needs. -- knees. It was a deeply cynical move.We're not going
0:08:55 > 0:08:56into that.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59I'm joined now by the former Tory MP Edwina Currie.
0:08:59 > 0:09:06Good morning.Hello, Emma.There has been a picture painted throughout
0:09:06 > 0:09:12the week of Westminster, people in late-night bar is hanging out, far
0:09:12 > 0:09:16from home. Why does there seem to be so much six and flirting in the
0:09:16 > 0:09:21Palace of Westminster?That was probably a more accurate picture 40
0:09:21 > 0:09:25years ago, or 30 years ago when I first went in there as a young
0:09:25 > 0:09:28member of Parliament. Not least because in those days there were
0:09:28 > 0:09:32only 23 women members of Parliament. I don't recognise that picture now.
0:09:32 > 0:09:37I have to say there is a script flying around, and we have heard a
0:09:37 > 0:09:42bit of it already, but says there are two species of humanity. One is
0:09:42 > 0:09:46men, one is women, and the men are automatically predators and the
0:09:46 > 0:09:51women are automatically victims. I don't buy into that. It is not a
0:09:51 > 0:09:54version of the House of Commons I recognise and it is not a
0:09:54 > 0:09:56description of the House of Commons to date. Most of the people in there
0:09:56 > 0:10:03are young. Most of the people in there, most of the MPs, have come in
0:10:03 > 0:10:08since 2010. There are very few older and experienced MPs. And I really
0:10:08 > 0:10:11felt for the Cabinet Minister, Michael Fallon, who resigned this
0:10:11 > 0:10:16week on the basis of a complete scrap of rumour. It was absolute
0:10:16 > 0:10:20nonsense. It was supposed to have taken place in 2002. There was
0:10:20 > 0:10:24another bid in the paper today, took place in 2003. The journalist
0:10:24 > 0:10:29concerned said he attempted to kiss her at the end of a lunch. Was this
0:10:29 > 0:10:34in public? The moment you start to examine some of the allegations that
0:10:34 > 0:10:39have resulted in good men resigning, being put under pressure to resign,
0:10:39 > 0:10:45they vanish into the air. It is not all sunshine. There isn't an
0:10:45 > 0:10:50iceberg.Not all of them do. You are not a current MP. It has been said
0:10:50 > 0:10:57by political correspondents that there is a generational divide,
0:10:57 > 0:11:01actually, with some of the older members of parliament being the ones
0:11:01 > 0:11:05coming on this sort of scrutiny. You cannot sit there and deny that all
0:11:05 > 0:11:09of the allegations coming from researchers who have at the moment
0:11:09 > 0:11:14no system in place, the Prime Minister has said this, to report
0:11:14 > 0:11:22their MPs, you cannot deny all of their experiences?With due respect,
0:11:22 > 0:11:27I can give -- do also to things if you give me a moment. The list that
0:11:27 > 0:11:31came out this week, more than 40 members of Parliament, many of those
0:11:31 > 0:11:35allegations are ancient, going back not ten years but 15 years or more.
0:11:35 > 0:11:41Some of those are consensual. Consent comes into a lot of this.
0:11:41 > 0:11:46Some of these are not MPs at all. The rape allegation, which is
0:11:46 > 0:11:50serious, was about somebody who is not an MP but is a party activist in
0:11:50 > 0:11:57the Labour Party. You have to treat the serious allegations seriously.
0:11:57 > 0:12:01As the Prime Minister has set herself, go to the police. You don't
0:12:01 > 0:12:07go to the press. If it is serious, go to the police. Journalists can
0:12:07 > 0:12:10publish any rumour about anybody as long as they don't name them. That
0:12:10 > 0:12:15is what has been going on.That is your take on it.
0:12:15 > 0:12:19Thank you. Edwina says there is no iceberg. Good men shouldn't be
0:12:19 > 0:12:25losing their jobs based on rumours? The word good is a dangerous word.
0:12:25 > 0:12:32Bit flirtatious.I work in the spoken word community. My friends
0:12:32 > 0:12:40have been overwhelmed with stories of rape, in some cases of child
0:12:40 > 0:12:46grooming by people are -- active in the artistic community. Really this
0:12:46 > 0:12:54to me is a grave problem. And I reject the idea...You are talking
0:12:54 > 0:12:59about as if that is a major issue in your demographic. Are you telling me
0:12:59 > 0:13:04that among artistic people there is a massive problem?My point being
0:13:04 > 0:13:08that this issue exists across industries. It exists in the legal
0:13:08 > 0:13:12world. I was a corporate lawyer by training. I have a good friend who
0:13:12 > 0:13:15lost her job through six discrimination. It is a broad issue.
0:13:15 > 0:13:22It is a structural problem.I'm really worried about the rhetoric I
0:13:22 > 0:13:24am hearing about women, the suggestion that all women are
0:13:24 > 0:13:30victims or going to be victims. I have been working in various
0:13:30 > 0:13:34industries a decade now. This is not my experience of work. This is not
0:13:34 > 0:13:42my experience of the women I know. Why would you call them hysterical?
0:13:42 > 0:13:46I'm calling what is happening now hysteria. I don't buy this idea that
0:13:46 > 0:13:55all women are potential victims of sexual harassment.Who said that?We
0:13:55 > 0:14:02have to understand the context. I think it is really important to note
0:14:02 > 0:14:05that a parliament were sexual harassment claims this big, is the
0:14:05 > 0:14:09same Parliament that has been cutting funding to domestic violence
0:14:09 > 0:14:12refuges, pushing through austerity policies that are making women
0:14:12 > 0:14:16disproportionately poorer and hurting them disproportionately,
0:14:16 > 0:14:20that has not been dealing with the on affordability of childcare and a
0:14:20 > 0:14:25total lack of social care. And all of these things are part of the same
0:14:25 > 0:14:31continuum, which is failing to understand the huge power imbalance
0:14:31 > 0:14:35between men and women that we have to tackle if we are to end this.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39Let's see what men and women are saying at home.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42Yes, Natalie says it is all about people learning to behave properly
0:14:42 > 0:14:45with respect. All of my female friends have been grabbed and groped
0:14:45 > 0:14:52at work. We are finally seeing it as a part of society we don't have to
0:14:52 > 0:14:55put up with. Becky says men are starting to see what women ever to
0:14:55 > 0:14:59live with for years. But now hopefully men see what we deal with
0:14:59 > 0:15:03and can help to stop it. But Paula says there needs to be a sense of
0:15:03 > 0:15:08balance. I worry that some good men, and they do exist, would be caught
0:15:08 > 0:15:12up in this when they have done nothing wrong. Debbie says it is an
0:15:12 > 0:15:15absolute witchhunt. My son is worried if these tortures somebody's
0:15:15 > 0:15:21arm he will be labelled a crazed six pest. Some men should be called out
0:15:21 > 0:15:25but not -- but most don't.
0:15:25 > 0:15:29Interesting, looking to the future, in ten years' time when we have this
0:15:29 > 0:15:32conversation, Sophie, will this be seen as a watershed moment question
0:15:32 > 0:15:37markfor me, certainly, I hope this is the point where people realise
0:15:37 > 0:15:40the UK feminist political not a niche issue but fundamental to way
0:15:40 > 0:15:46we do politics.I'm worried about the effect this is going to have on
0:15:46 > 0:15:51men and women's relationships in the workplace. I mean, let's not forget
0:15:51 > 0:15:54that people date their colleagues and marry their colleagues, people
0:15:54 > 0:15:59flirt at work and they enjoy banter. This kind of topic always lends
0:15:59 > 0:16:02itself to ending up with more regulation and I feel like we will
0:16:02 > 0:16:05end up in a place where any interaction between men and women in
0:16:05 > 0:16:08the workplace is going to be regarded as suspicious and that's
0:16:08 > 0:16:12not a workplace I want to work in. In ten years' time, I'm going to get
0:16:12 > 0:16:15you together and see who is right! Thank you.
0:16:15 > 0:16:17Poet and performer Benjamin Zephaniah once described himself
0:16:17 > 0:16:19as an angry young man.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22Now he says he's an angry old man, riled about the injustices
0:16:22 > 0:16:32in society that he still sees.
0:16:32 > 0:16:36There is an epic in my ear, though the novel in my navel, there is a
0:16:36 > 0:16:40classic here somewhere.You knew at quite an early age that he wanted to
0:16:40 > 0:16:44be a poet, about eight, is that right?Yes, I always knew I wanted
0:16:44 > 0:16:48to be a poet, even before I knew what that was.Where did it come
0:16:48 > 0:16:52from? Orange maggot it was about the love of words. I did not even know
0:16:52 > 0:16:59the word poem or poet, I just knew I loved the way that words rhymed,I'm
0:16:59 > 0:17:01love the way word could have a different rhythm or meaning
0:17:01 > 0:17:06depending on how you said it. Be nice to your turkey this Christmas.
0:17:06 > 0:17:10Don't eat it, keep it alive, it could be your mate and not on your
0:17:10 > 0:17:14plate, said, yellow, Turkey, man, I'm on your side. There was a period
0:17:14 > 0:17:20when I was... I got in trouble with the law and all that kind of thing
0:17:20 > 0:17:24so poetry really did save me. I've got lots of friends who are turkeys
0:17:24 > 0:17:30and all of them fear Christmas day and they said, Ben, man, I want to
0:17:30 > 0:17:35enjoy it. It is a Jamaican turkey! When you were growing up, your mum
0:17:35 > 0:17:39was a Christian, was it an important part of your life? Width very
0:17:39 > 0:17:46important, we were in church all the time. They were churches with very
0:17:46 > 0:17:50charismatic preachers.I think they were poetic.You grew up with your
0:17:50 > 0:17:52Christian background and then you move to raster Ferrari. What
0:17:52 > 0:18:07prompted that? -- you moved to Dan Bunn.You can be political and
0:18:07 > 0:18:12spiritual at the same time, Christie de started me on the path and
0:18:12 > 0:18:15Rastafari continued that and I've got to a place now where I believe
0:18:15 > 0:18:18in God without religion, God before religion, if you like. I just
0:18:18 > 0:18:24believe that God manifests her through nature and through
0:18:24 > 0:18:29meditation, we can get close to God. Actually, we don't get close to God,
0:18:29 > 0:18:33we become one with God.Talk to me a bit about meditation because I know
0:18:33 > 0:18:38that is important to you, tai chi, you spend a lot of time in China.
0:18:38 > 0:18:42Tell me about where the interest has come from.It slows you down. It
0:18:42 > 0:18:49calms you down. When you are so relaxed because you have to be
0:18:49 > 0:18:54really relaxed when you are doing tai chi, there is something about
0:18:54 > 0:19:01the consciousness that you have that makes you realise that you are not a
0:19:01 > 0:19:11body that has a spirit or soul, you are a soul that has a body.I read
0:19:11 > 0:19:14you started writing poetry because you did not like poetry.Yes.What
0:19:14 > 0:19:20did you mean by that?What I meant was, there was a lot of poetry I was
0:19:20 > 0:19:25getting at school that I just did not identify with, you know. Some of
0:19:25 > 0:19:30it was great poetry but it was the way it was presented to me, and it
0:19:30 > 0:19:34was, you know, there's no other way of putting this, it was dead white
0:19:34 > 0:19:39men. I wanted to create poetry that was different from that. Here, the
0:19:39 > 0:19:43past and future meet. This is no ordinary street. Goodness gracious,
0:19:43 > 0:19:51lo and behold, the greatness of the Soul Road.You said you were an
0:19:51 > 0:19:57angry young man. Are you still angry?Yes, I suppose I'm an angry
0:19:57 > 0:20:01old man, now, still angry. I'm surprised I'm still so angry. I
0:20:01 > 0:20:04thought... There are so many issues I thought would have been dealt with
0:20:04 > 0:20:09by now. If you look at what people are talking about right now as we
0:20:09 > 0:20:13speak, the kind of abuse against women in the workplace, wherever it
0:20:13 > 0:20:19is, in politics, in the arts or whatever, if you'd had asked me like
0:20:19 > 0:20:2420 years ago, would we be here now, I would say absolutely not, there
0:20:24 > 0:20:27was a big feminist movement in the 70s, we were going to deal with
0:20:27 > 0:20:31this. I just can't believe we are back here. I cannot believe we are
0:20:31 > 0:20:35talking about race almost every day in the media and we talk about
0:20:35 > 0:20:42dividing into religious groups and nationalistic groups and all this
0:20:42 > 0:20:45kind of thing. I thought the world was coming together. I really
0:20:45 > 0:20:49thought we were just going to have a lovefest now. Black is not the
0:20:49 > 0:20:53problem. Mother country, get it right, and just for the record, some
0:20:53 > 0:21:01of my best friends are white.Back in 2003, you rejected an OBE. Can
0:21:01 > 0:21:05you tell me about that?I don't really like talking about it because
0:21:05 > 0:21:10I always say it is something I didn't do, I didn't take it, order
0:21:10 > 0:21:13of the British Empire, as soon as you stop reading my poetry, you will
0:21:13 > 0:21:20see that I'm against empire. How can I say that I'm against slavery and
0:21:20 > 0:21:24the link to Empire and then attach it to my name? The day I should have
0:21:24 > 0:21:28got my OBE, I was in a book shop in east London talking to children.
0:21:28 > 0:21:34That is where my heart is. Oh, no, bless myself, clever Trevor's scored
0:21:34 > 0:21:45a goal, so he runs up the pitch and wriggles his botty...Are you
0:21:45 > 0:21:49searching for stroke charity or is that something you have achieved?I
0:21:49 > 0:21:53have -- searching for spirituality. I'm not searching any more. In the
0:21:53 > 0:21:5680s I used to go to Jerusalem and Jordan, all these places of
0:21:56 > 0:22:00pilgrimage, to try to find myself and all that kind of stuff. Now I
0:22:00 > 0:22:08can find myself wherever I am. I'm not on a spiritual quest any more.
0:22:08 > 0:22:16What I really want now is... I look at the world and I just want to make
0:22:16 > 0:22:21the world a better place.That sounds good to me.I tried.Perhaps
0:22:21 > 0:22:24we could end with a line of your poetry that you think reflects where
0:22:24 > 0:22:33you are at right now. Your attitude. A line of poetry? Thunder makes me
0:22:33 > 0:22:39wonder, lightning makes me like, the world's a mess but there is hope,
0:22:39 > 0:22:44that is why I write.
0:22:44 > 0:22:46Benjamin Zephaniah.
0:22:46 > 0:22:48Still to come on Sunday Morning Live...
0:22:48 > 0:22:50the Muslim community action group and how you can
0:22:50 > 0:22:53qualify to join them.
0:22:53 > 0:22:58You don't need to have a beard to be part of Bearded Broz or be a Muslim,
0:22:58 > 0:23:00we are just a scheme for people who thought we wanted to do something
0:23:00 > 0:23:03for our community.
0:23:05 > 0:23:08Have you walked past a homeless person on the street recently
0:23:08 > 0:23:10and wondered whether you should give them money?
0:23:10 > 0:23:11That's a dilemma we'll be discussing shortly.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15First, let's hear about a scheme launched this week in London
0:23:15 > 0:23:17to direct people sleeping rough to a place where they
0:23:17 > 0:23:18can get a hot meal.
0:23:18 > 0:23:21Comedians Lee Mack and Sean Lock were at the launch event
0:23:21 > 0:23:23to offer their backing, along with actress Naomie Harris,
0:23:23 > 0:23:26star of the James Bond films and Pirates of the Caribbean.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29I went along too, in a supporting role.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36Earlier this week, a group of well-known celebrities gathered in
0:23:36 > 0:23:42central London to help launch a new website called NextMeal with the aim
0:23:42 > 0:23:45of helping the capital's homeless find the nearest place to get some
0:23:45 > 0:23:53hot food.Normally, I get applause when I walk out.APPLAUSE
0:23:53 > 0:23:57Movie star Naomie Harris, best known for playing Miss Moneypenny in the
0:23:57 > 0:24:02latest James Bond films, was at the launch.For me, the idea of not
0:24:02 > 0:24:05having a roof over your head, not having a warm meal in your stomach,
0:24:05 > 0:24:10you know, I just think they're rather think that in a country as
0:24:10 > 0:24:17advanced as Britain, nobody should have to suffer that.The website is
0:24:17 > 0:24:20the brainchild of Martin Stone, who runs a soup kitchen at his church in
0:24:20 > 0:24:29Muswell Hill. What exactly does the website do?It holds data on all the
0:24:29 > 0:24:32provision for, you know, soup kitchens, advice and support, in
0:24:32 > 0:24:36London, so it tells you what provision is there, what is open now
0:24:36 > 0:24:41and it will help you at the instant of your need.Comedian Sean Lock is
0:24:41 > 0:24:44one of Martin's neighbours and got involved after he was approached to
0:24:44 > 0:24:49help in Martin's soup kitchen.I obviously said, I will come up and
0:24:49 > 0:24:54help out at some point. I didn't mean it, obviously. I want to say at
0:24:54 > 0:24:58this point, I'm not a good person, I don't do lots of good charity work.
0:24:58 > 0:25:01People knock on my door for charities and I always have the same
0:25:01 > 0:25:05excuse, I'm putting my kids to bed, I does go, sorry, I'm putting my
0:25:05 > 0:25:10kids to bed, even if it's 10:30am on Saturday. I'm not one of the world's
0:25:10 > 0:25:15roll your sleeves up, go out and do good in the world. I mean to but I
0:25:15 > 0:25:18never quite get round to it. I always find a reason not to do it
0:25:18 > 0:25:24but I went up there and did it.Did washing up?Yes, washing up,
0:25:24 > 0:25:26serving, collecting plate, chatting to some of the homeless people who
0:25:26 > 0:25:30go to the soup kitchen. My approach was, "I've done that", like a
0:25:30 > 0:25:34parachute jump. But I thought I could not do this anyway but Martin
0:25:34 > 0:25:38said there was another way to help, he'd created this website, NextMeal,
0:25:38 > 0:25:44based in London at the moment and a lot of people said, what? Homeless
0:25:44 > 0:25:49people have phones? Yes, they do. I got involved with being to help out
0:25:49 > 0:25:52in that way rather than the standard of my washing-up.And I'd see the
0:25:52 > 0:25:56standard of his washing-up.It's pretty poor.Fellow comedian Lee
0:25:56 > 0:26:00Mack is on board.I come here as pretty much the Newby amongst
0:26:00 > 0:26:05everyone because we first met when I was on a James Bond film with you.
0:26:05 > 0:26:07LAUGHTER The scheme is also aimed at the
0:26:07 > 0:26:11wider public and could offer an alternative way they can help when
0:26:11 > 0:26:15encountering someone who is sleeping rough.I am the person, really, that
0:26:15 > 0:26:19the campaign is aimed at. I have done the three things you could do,
0:26:19 > 0:26:23give money, don't give money, or you give money and then wonder if you've
0:26:23 > 0:26:27done the right thing. When Sean mentioned it, I wondered what the
0:26:27 > 0:26:30correct thing was, what you are supposed to do and coming here
0:26:30 > 0:26:35today, I realised it is not that black and white. It is not yes you
0:26:35 > 0:26:38should or shouldn't give. It is the third option if you choose to take
0:26:38 > 0:26:43it, which is to say, "This will get you a hot meal".I think it's very
0:26:43 > 0:26:47hard to walk past someone who is asking if the money and seems to be
0:26:47 > 0:26:49in need but the wonderful thing about helping in the soup kitchen
0:26:49 > 0:26:54that I learned was in fact, there are many places like that in London.
0:26:54 > 0:26:58There's no need for anyone in London to ever go without a meal. Breakfast
0:26:58 > 0:27:03is being served all the time, lunch and dinner. You can have three
0:27:03 > 0:27:09meals, hot meals in a day in London at any time.To publicise the
0:27:09 > 0:27:11website, Londoners are encouraged to hand out special information cards
0:27:11 > 0:27:17to the homeless.Even if you just tell people there is a place called
0:27:17 > 0:27:21NextMeal, a website, it is fairly civil to remember.And the other way
0:27:21 > 0:27:25to do it is produced them by magic and that is why I'm a light
0:27:25 > 0:27:30entertainer.You can actually do it! You make these judgments, you start
0:27:30 > 0:27:33making these judgments and you look at the person, maybe not as a
0:27:33 > 0:27:38person, you look at somebody and think, is it a scam or is it
0:27:38 > 0:27:41genuine? If it is genuine, do they need the money for drugs or alcohol?
0:27:41 > 0:27:48You went to this sort of labyrinth of moral choices. What it does is...
0:27:48 > 0:27:52I don't know the right word to use, people who are not homeless, walking
0:27:52 > 0:27:57past, it lets them know about this huge network of volunteers, of
0:27:57 > 0:28:00charities, not just charities, just people providing free food to
0:28:00 > 0:28:02homeless people in London.
0:28:02 > 0:28:06The launch of the new project, NextMeal.
0:28:06 > 0:28:08Let's discuss the broader problems presented by people
0:28:08 > 0:28:11sleeping rough now. How should we help the homeless?
0:28:11 > 0:28:13Joining me now are Matt Broomfield, a writer and activist.
0:28:13 > 0:28:16Jon Kuhrt, Chief Executive of the West London Mission charity.
0:28:16 > 0:28:23And Poppy Noor, a journalist who used to be homeless.
0:28:23 > 0:28:27Matt, starting with you. We have heard about the dilemma in the film
0:28:27 > 0:28:30that people face when I pass somebody who is homeless. Do you
0:28:30 > 0:28:34give or not? What do you say?As Lee Mack said, it is not a black and
0:28:34 > 0:28:38white issue but the message we are handed from the government and media
0:28:38 > 0:28:41is often that we must not give, we must create a hostile environment
0:28:41 > 0:28:45for homeless people on the street, such that they feel the only option
0:28:45 > 0:28:49they can follow is to go elsewhere for help but in fact, I think, the
0:28:49 > 0:28:52reasons people on the streets are much more complicated and structural
0:28:52 > 0:28:55than simply the fact somebody might give them 50p as they sit outside
0:28:55 > 0:29:00Tesco. You could as easily kill someone by walking past and not
0:29:00 > 0:29:03giving them money as you could by giving them money, in that sense,
0:29:03 > 0:29:07and it is important to tackle these issues on a wider scale and at the
0:29:07 > 0:29:11same time, to take people seriously, when they say they need money, to
0:29:11 > 0:29:14believe them and give them the kind of dignity and respect they deserve
0:29:14 > 0:29:19of handing them what they ask for. So you say give money?Yet, I think
0:29:19 > 0:29:24so. Have a conversation.80% of people, it is estimated in London,
0:29:24 > 0:29:28who are on the streets, have an addiction of some sort. People will
0:29:28 > 0:29:33think you are just giving money to feed the addiction.I think it is
0:29:33 > 0:29:37facile and almost quite cruel to say that the way an addiction is fed is
0:29:37 > 0:29:40by either somebody handing that money or someone asking for it and
0:29:40 > 0:29:45taking it. As we know, the causes and drivers of addiction are much
0:29:45 > 0:29:48more structural and long-term and at that point when someone is on the
0:29:48 > 0:29:50street and asking for money, you know they are going to get it
0:29:50 > 0:29:53somehow, whether they are begging for hours into the night or whether
0:29:53 > 0:29:57they are committing crime, doing dangerous sex work. They will get
0:29:57 > 0:30:00the money.People think the money is leading the addiction in helping to
0:30:00 > 0:30:05keep them in that state.I don't think that is true. The way to help
0:30:05 > 0:30:10someone with an addiction is not, you know, if someone in your family
0:30:10 > 0:30:14had an addiction, you wouldn't just cut them off. You would offer them
0:30:14 > 0:30:19support.Would you give them money to feed the addiction?I don't like
0:30:19 > 0:30:23the language of feeding the addiction, the addiction is fed by
0:30:23 > 0:30:28the poverty and their surroundings. The thing is, social injustice is a
0:30:28 > 0:30:31huge problem and that is what is driving the rising numbers of
0:30:31 > 0:30:35homeless people. But I just think that the actual addiction is that
0:30:35 > 0:30:43people face are fed by mindless, or people seeking to be compassionate
0:30:43 > 0:30:49but it's not being effective and we should be kind and seeking to come
0:30:49 > 0:30:52alongside people. That is what the mission is all about, trying to help
0:30:52 > 0:30:56people come off the streets but the people who work on the front line,
0:30:56 > 0:30:59I've been working with homeless people for over 20 years, and Matt
0:30:59 > 0:31:04is just wrong, that actually, the addictions are fed by people handing
0:31:04 > 0:31:09over cash and it gets in the way of helping those people come off the
0:31:09 > 0:31:13streets. Being on the street is so dangerous.
0:31:17 > 0:31:22Once you give the money, it is their money.Is all about understanding
0:31:22 > 0:31:28the terribly warping effects addiction has. It has affected my
0:31:28 > 0:31:33family as well. Matt said if a member of your family was affected.
0:31:33 > 0:31:37My cousin was struggling with heroin addiction for 20 years. It did him
0:31:37 > 0:31:46no good to have money, the money that he scrounged off people, did
0:31:46 > 0:31:52him no good. That caused damage. He died this Christmas. It was the
0:31:52 > 0:31:55terrible reality that so many people face. The tragic reality is that
0:31:55 > 0:32:00people are struggling through a whole range of issues and we have to
0:32:00 > 0:32:03focus on how we help them to come off the streets.It is a very
0:32:03 > 0:32:08complex picture, isn't it? Not all people who beg are homeless and vice
0:32:08 > 0:32:14versa. It is more complicated.Yes, first of all I would ask how you
0:32:14 > 0:32:18find out that 80% of people begging on the street are addicted to drugs.
0:32:18 > 0:32:23There are a lot of different forms of homelessness. People don't
0:32:23 > 0:32:26necessarily sit in one place and beg. They may travel back and forth
0:32:26 > 0:32:32on bass -- on buses. It is not all about people asking for money for
0:32:32 > 0:32:36the next hit. You might be as in my situation young and vulnerable and
0:32:36 > 0:32:45you can't live at home any more. There is a broader question. In
0:32:45 > 0:32:48between somebody being homeless and has not been given money, if there
0:32:48 > 0:32:52aren't enough services, if the right places for people to go, and
0:32:52 > 0:32:55homelessness is rising massively and there aren't enough places for
0:32:55 > 0:32:59everybody, if we stopped giving to everybody, not everybody will find a
0:32:59 > 0:33:02bed that night. There is a question about how we decide how people
0:33:02 > 0:33:06should deal with their misery, they're cold and discomfort, and how
0:33:06 > 0:33:09they should live their lives in that situation.
0:33:09 > 0:33:12I'm joined now by someone who once was homeless,
0:33:12 > 0:33:15and is now a member of the House of Lords - John Bird, founder
0:33:15 > 0:33:17of The Big Issue magazine.
0:33:17 > 0:33:23Good morning.Good morning.You have written previously that people
0:33:23 > 0:33:28should not give cash to those on the street. Do you still have that view?
0:33:28 > 0:33:32I have had all sorts of views. I started by believing it was better
0:33:32 > 0:33:35to give the people on the streets because there wasn't enough revision
0:33:35 > 0:33:42from all the organisations. I moved on to changing my mind and saying
0:33:42 > 0:33:47that actually it's not a good idea to keep people on the streets. What
0:33:47 > 0:33:51I think the real problem is the fact that if you don't give the people on
0:33:51 > 0:33:57the street, is the provision there for them to get off the streets? My
0:33:57 > 0:34:00argument, the reason I went into the House of Lords, is to dismantle
0:34:00 > 0:34:07poverty, to stop poverty from happening, preventing property. --
0:34:07 > 0:34:10poverty. All of the debates are always around accepting the fact
0:34:10 > 0:34:14that people should street -- Street on the streets. And should be added
0:34:14 > 0:34:21begging. I would go back to removing people from the street and putting
0:34:21 > 0:34:27them in a place of safety. As far as my experience is concerned, most of
0:34:27 > 0:34:30the people I know on the streets are either having mental health problems
0:34:30 > 0:34:35or will for as long as they are on the streets. This is a national
0:34:35 > 0:34:40health issue. This is not just about, can we do this, can we do
0:34:40 > 0:34:44that? It is a real big issue. The big issue, what are we going to do
0:34:44 > 0:34:50about those poor people who are dying before us? What I want is the
0:34:50 > 0:34:54government to put money into places of safety. Not the old mental
0:34:54 > 0:34:59institutions. When they close down in 1985, the streets filled up
0:34:59 > 0:35:07almost immediately. I want to extend this argument. The A&E department
0:35:07 > 0:35:12has moved to our streets. And I really regret that.In the meantime,
0:35:12 > 0:35:16when people are walking past those who are homeless, perhaps today,
0:35:16 > 0:35:22what should they do? They are at with your power.I'm sorry, it is up
0:35:22 > 0:35:26to you. I agree with the chap who says it is not black and white. I
0:35:26 > 0:35:32agree with him. This is not black and white. You have to try to engage
0:35:32 > 0:35:37with that person. I always talk to homeless people. I give money to
0:35:37 > 0:35:42homeless people when I can help them. But the problem is, the reason
0:35:42 > 0:35:47I started the big issue was because I wanted to lift people out of
0:35:47 > 0:35:51begging, because begging screws your mind.Thank you. You have been
0:35:51 > 0:36:01getting in touch. Erin says if she see someone on the street when she
0:36:01 > 0:36:05is grabbing lunch, she doesn't hesitate to pick some lunch up for
0:36:05 > 0:36:10them. Human interaction, that goes a long way. Stewart says there are
0:36:10 > 0:36:15loads of empty buildings all over the country, give the property
0:36:15 > 0:36:18owners in a 100% business rape relief that if they allow empty
0:36:18 > 0:36:24buildings to be used as shelters. Another one from Sara Ogilvie says
0:36:24 > 0:36:27the problem is some of the homeless are Thomas. They are beggars looking
0:36:27 > 0:36:32for money to get going. Yes, the genuine ones do need help, but who
0:36:32 > 0:36:41is genuine and it was not? And other wants to help people wants to help
0:36:41 > 0:36:44themselves. You can get off the streets with hard work and
0:36:44 > 0:36:51determination. I know, I did it. Now I want to help those who wanted.
0:36:51 > 0:36:54Nathan says scrap foreign aid until there is no more homelessness. We
0:36:54 > 0:36:59seem to care about others than helping are wrong. Why do we vote?
0:36:59 > 0:37:06For our own downfall. Thank you. One of the things John Bird
0:37:06 > 0:37:08mentioned was that if we are told not to directly give to someone who
0:37:08 > 0:37:12is homeless, we should not give that as an excuse not to give at all.
0:37:12 > 0:37:20That is the problem, people say, it is not my problem.Absolutely. We
0:37:20 > 0:37:23should be giving and we should be involved in this issue. And we
0:37:23 > 0:37:26should be angry about how rough sleeping has increased in the last
0:37:26 > 0:37:33five years. It is a scandal. And giving time and thoughtfully
0:37:33 > 0:37:37encouraging people to make use of the services that are available.
0:37:37 > 0:37:40There is a shortage of hostel beds, there is a shortage of affordable
0:37:40 > 0:37:47housing. There isn't a shortage of food. As Naomie Harris said, there
0:37:47 > 0:37:52are places where people can go. I would urge people when engaging with
0:37:52 > 0:37:57someone who is sleeping rough, there is a phone number people can form
0:37:57 > 0:38:03where the outreach services can be connected, but also to go to the
0:38:03 > 0:38:06churches, the Centre is available locally, where they can start making
0:38:06 > 0:38:12the steps to come off the streets. Poppy, you were nodding during John
0:38:12 > 0:38:17Bird's interview. You spend time on the street yourself.I haven't. I
0:38:17 > 0:38:21lived in hostels. There are lots of different types of homelessness.
0:38:21 > 0:38:26That is why you have to judge had on a case to case basis. -- judge it.
0:38:26 > 0:38:32Not everybody will want the money for drugs. There could be loads of
0:38:32 > 0:38:37reasons why they are asking.You can either be the kind of person who
0:38:37 > 0:38:46gets to the end of the week and thinks, no -- good, nobody fooled me
0:38:46 > 0:38:51today by being a fake homeless person. Or maybe you say, maybe
0:38:51 > 0:38:54somebody did trick me but I know that I helped.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57I am afraid we are out of time. Thank you all very much.
0:38:57 > 0:39:01Now to a group of unique volunteer workers.
0:39:01 > 0:39:04The Bearded Broz began as a group of friends clearing up
0:39:04 > 0:39:05rubbish in Birmingham.
0:39:05 > 0:39:08Since then, with their hi-vis waistcoats and high energy approach,
0:39:08 > 0:39:10they've become a familiar and welcome sight around
0:39:10 > 0:39:11the West Midlands.
0:39:11 > 0:39:14Despite the name, having a beard isn't a criteria for entry -
0:39:14 > 0:39:24so Mehreen Baig was able to spend a day as an honorary Bro.
0:39:25 > 0:39:31Meet The Bearded Broz. They began as Muslim volunteers who got together
0:39:31 > 0:39:34in the summer to clear rubbish left on the streets during the Birmingham
0:39:34 > 0:39:41bin strike.Ideally what you should be doing is going to the tip.Since
0:39:41 > 0:39:47then, they have swelled in numbers and taken on other projects like
0:39:47 > 0:39:52tidying up city parks. And everyone is welcome to join.You don't need
0:39:52 > 0:39:59to have a beard. You don't have to be Muslim. We were just a scheme of
0:39:59 > 0:40:02people who thought, let's do something for our community. It is
0:40:02 > 0:40:07not going to stop here.One of the schemes are helped to run is a food
0:40:07 > 0:40:11bank for needy families. Imran, one of the founders, is manning the
0:40:11 > 0:40:20phones today.Thanks, brother. God bless. Bye-bye. What we have is a
0:40:20 > 0:40:23refugee family, two children, a three-year-old and 11-year-olds.
0:40:23 > 0:40:29They haven't got any food. They have been without money since September.
0:40:29 > 0:40:33Social services have recommended we help these people.This must be
0:40:33 > 0:40:37difficult because you are faced with the stories on a regular basis?
0:40:37 > 0:40:43Absolutely. It is heartbreaking. A lot of our volunteers, a lot of
0:40:43 > 0:40:52people are left in tears.This is where the food is kept? Sugar,
0:40:52 > 0:40:59biscuits, pasta or writes.The family is mum and dad and two
0:40:59 > 0:41:02children. They will get four these. That would be sufficient for seven
0:41:02 > 0:41:08to eight days. Rice pudding is extremely good for kids.Soup is
0:41:08 > 0:41:15good. It is winter. It is cold. That will warn them up.Yeah. What you
0:41:15 > 0:41:22see here now you will not see tomorrow.Some people so close to
0:41:22 > 0:41:25home are having this for breakfast, lunch and dinner every day. It
0:41:25 > 0:41:30really highlights how grateful we can be and it is quite unsettling.
0:41:30 > 0:41:34It makes you think about all the food you have wasted. All of the
0:41:34 > 0:41:41food you have moaned about. I'm sorry, I'm going to cry. Imran works
0:41:41 > 0:41:48hard but feels it is a duty.In Muslim is not a Muslim if he goes to
0:41:48 > 0:41:54bed satisfied while his neighbour goes hungry.Name-macro deliver
0:41:54 > 0:41:59emergency passes around the city day and night. -- The Bearded Broz. Have
0:41:59 > 0:42:02you ever had people, where you have turned up on the doorstep, and they
0:42:02 > 0:42:07have seen that you are a Muslim and they are quite nasty?No. We have
0:42:07 > 0:42:12gone to the door and their like, my God, I didn't know Muslims like you
0:42:12 > 0:42:17existed. I think people have a very narrow minded tunnel vision of
0:42:17 > 0:42:21Muslims. And I think this sort of thing really brings it home to say,
0:42:21 > 0:42:27hold on, not everybody is the same. Inbee Park the team is going strong.
0:42:27 > 0:42:32No time for a chat.Surrey! I thought I was running the show.Some
0:42:32 > 0:42:38volunteers joined The Bearded Broz. Contacted him. I came out the next
0:42:38 > 0:42:46day.Imran has done a lot for us. We are trying to give back and see what
0:42:46 > 0:42:51-- what we can do to help.It feels great to be here to help Imran. At
0:42:51 > 0:42:55the end of the day he helped me, so off I can help him, all the better,
0:42:55 > 0:43:01really.I am trying really hard to turn my life around. This gives me
0:43:01 > 0:43:06out of trouble.When I have been in this situation people and help me.
0:43:06 > 0:43:10It is nice to stop other people from getting themselves in big trouble
0:43:10 > 0:43:16and ending up on drugs.Now read is one of the founders of the group.
0:43:16 > 0:43:21Within nine to five job, fitting in volunteer work is a challenge.I
0:43:21 > 0:43:25say, I'm just popping out for a few minutes. Then a clearer view
0:43:25 > 0:43:30streets. It is like being Superman. You put your high visibility jacket
0:43:30 > 0:43:33on, you run round the corner, and you do your work. It is not easy.
0:43:33 > 0:43:38You guys have done really well. Nature is natural and having rubbish
0:43:38 > 0:43:43about is making it look untidy and it is not very nice. People like us
0:43:43 > 0:43:49need to clean it up.We are the decent people. Let's carry on
0:43:49 > 0:43:54cleaning. There is plenty of litter but it can hold hidden dangers.You
0:43:54 > 0:43:59have to be careful where you step on what you pick up. You pick up a
0:43:59 > 0:44:05crisp packet then there could be a couple of needles in there.
0:44:05 > 0:44:10Name-macro may be relatively small but they are doing a big job by
0:44:10 > 0:44:13pulling the community closer together.-- The Bearded Broz. I'm
0:44:13 > 0:44:19really happy that other people are coming to this and they are saying,
0:44:19 > 0:44:22this is our community and we are going to do something about it. As
0:44:22 > 0:44:28you can see, it's across the board. The community cohesion is there.
0:44:28 > 0:44:32This is what I almost -- always dreamt of and we have got it.
0:44:32 > 0:44:34This week marked 500 years since the German scholar and monk,
0:44:34 > 0:44:36Martin Luther, started the Reformation by hammering
0:44:36 > 0:44:4295 theses to the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg.
0:44:42 > 0:44:45Luther felt the Catholic Church had moved away from the teaching of God
0:44:45 > 0:44:46and was corrupt.
0:44:46 > 0:44:49His actions set in motion the formation of the Protestant Church.
0:44:49 > 0:44:52On Tuesday, a group called the Protestant Truth Society took out
0:44:52 > 0:44:55a full page advert in the Daily Telegraph saying that
0:44:55 > 0:44:58Britain needs reformation today.
0:44:58 > 0:45:01It suggested that, just as in Luther's time,
0:45:01 > 0:45:05today's society has turned away from the teachings of the Bible.
0:45:05 > 0:45:09So are they right - do we need a new Reformation?
0:45:09 > 0:45:13Here to discuss that are Duncan Boyd, the Director
0:45:13 > 0:45:15of the Protestant Truth Society, who placed the advert
0:45:15 > 0:45:16in the Telegraph.
0:45:16 > 0:45:18Ariane Sherine, a comedian and writer who was part
0:45:18 > 0:45:22of the UK's first ever atheist advertising campaign.
0:45:22 > 0:45:24And Rabbi Jonathan Romain from Maidenhead Synagogue is a writer
0:45:24 > 0:45:31and interfaith campaigner.
0:45:31 > 0:45:35Duncan, you are part of the society that called for the new Reformation
0:45:35 > 0:45:39this week. What is so wrong with modern society that we need a
0:45:39 > 0:45:43Reformation?Well, we can see that there are a lot of problems in
0:45:43 > 0:45:49Britain today. We don't live in a society which is without ethical
0:45:49 > 0:45:52questions, without ethical problems. People have many questions about
0:45:52 > 0:45:57these things and the two other debates that you've had on the
0:45:57 > 0:46:02programme before on homelessness and sexual harassment, raised ethical
0:46:02 > 0:46:06questions so people have a question about what is right and wrong. The
0:46:06 > 0:46:12Protestant Reformation was important because it said that the answer to
0:46:12 > 0:46:18those questions are found in what God says to us. There is an
0:46:18 > 0:46:22objective standard of right and wrong. That objective standard is
0:46:22 > 0:46:29not set by us. It is set by God. If you want to know what God says, what
0:46:29 > 0:46:35the standard is, you need to read his word.Ariane, if we were more
0:46:35 > 0:46:41religious, we would be a better, more moral society?Absolutely not,
0:46:41 > 0:46:43absolutely not, religious people don't have a monopoly on morality.
0:46:43 > 0:46:49We live in a beautiful country and it is so ethnically diverse and
0:46:49 > 0:46:52socially progressive. We are more liberal than ever. We have equal
0:46:52 > 0:46:57rights for gay people to marry and I believe this is something that
0:46:57 > 0:47:01Duncan wanted to put in his advert, that gay people shouldn't be allowed
0:47:01 > 0:47:04to get married and I think that is wrong. He says there are ethical
0:47:04 > 0:47:07debate and he's coming down on the wrong side of all of the debates,
0:47:07 > 0:47:11for gay rights, abortion and euthanasia, to name but three.
0:47:11 > 0:47:16Jonathan, is an established church a good or bad thing?Actually, I think
0:47:16 > 0:47:21it does quite well in two centres. Firstly, it is a source for ethics,
0:47:21 > 0:47:25not the only one by any means but it is able to hold up truth to power
0:47:25 > 0:47:29and able to hold an ethical scorecard, even to government and
0:47:29 > 0:47:32secondly, it's a very good at every now and then expressing a national
0:47:32 > 0:47:36will. It may not capture everybody's mood on a Sunday morning but for
0:47:36 > 0:47:39those big occasions, it has got the right tools, Thanksgiving, a
0:47:39 > 0:47:45coronation aura when it -- or a wedding, expressing morning at a
0:47:45 > 0:47:48funeral. We are at age 's pointed today where frankly, in some ways,
0:47:48 > 0:47:52the church has failed because churches are emptying and it has
0:47:52 > 0:47:55lost the country due to have 100 years ago but on the other hand,
0:47:55 > 0:47:57people still have religious inclinations and asked the big
0:47:57 > 0:48:01questions. Who am I? Where am I going? What is it for? Perhaps
0:48:01 > 0:48:04Duncan is right, we need a Reformation but the church needs to
0:48:04 > 0:48:10look in the mirror and say, "What are the good things and where have
0:48:10 > 0:48:13we gone wrong?" Maybe the problem is, people believe in the ethics and
0:48:13 > 0:48:16morality but not necessarily the doctrine.We were let Duncan picked
0:48:16 > 0:48:23up on that. But first, let's see what people are saying ten. Jed
0:48:23 > 0:48:26says, Brittany direct mission but not in terms of our superstitious
0:48:26 > 0:48:29past, we need to develop the new enlightenment that is happening
0:48:29 > 0:48:33naturally". Karen says, "Anything that cap present the teachings of
0:48:33 > 0:48:37the Bible in a modern, non-fusty way can only be a good thing. If we can
0:48:37 > 0:48:41no learn and live good lives from the Bible 's word, surely we will
0:48:41 > 0:48:44benefit?" Duncan, what are you worried about
0:48:44 > 0:48:48if we don't have a Reformation now? Wright I think British society would
0:48:48 > 0:48:52cover much more ugly place. People will become more selfish.I'm
0:48:52 > 0:48:56agreeing with Jonathan that the heart of the Christian faith is the
0:48:56 > 0:49:00Christian gospel, so the heart of it is a theological truth, Jesus Christ
0:49:00 > 0:49:04was God incarnate. If you wish to come to know the God who made you,
0:49:04 > 0:49:10you need to repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus Christ, it
0:49:10 > 0:49:13is called theological truth but I think also the Ten Commandments, I
0:49:13 > 0:49:18think are of abiding, universal authority. The Ten Commandments are
0:49:18 > 0:49:20regression of two other commandments, when Christ was asked
0:49:20 > 0:49:24by a Pharisee, what are the most important commandments, he quoted
0:49:24 > 0:49:28from Leviticus and Deuteronomy and from Deuteronomy is, "You shall love
0:49:28 > 0:49:32the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul
0:49:32 > 0:49:36and all your strength", and the quote from Leviticus 19 is commie
0:49:36 > 0:49:40"You shall love your neighbour as yourself". If we all adhere to those
0:49:40 > 0:49:44standards, we will have a better society.Ariane, you are shaking
0:49:44 > 0:49:48head and if you had a Reformation, I suppose you would get rid of
0:49:48 > 0:49:51religion?I think everyone has the right to believe what they want but
0:49:51 > 0:49:54these are problematic ideas, the idea of sin, you believe in original
0:49:54 > 0:50:00sin.I do.I have a six-year-old daughter, she's wonderful, she's
0:50:00 > 0:50:04never seen me on TV before so hello, Lily, she's the most innocent,
0:50:04 > 0:50:07funny, sweet girl and of course she is naughty but this idea that
0:50:07 > 0:50:11children are born evil and people are born evil, I mean, I spent my
0:50:11 > 0:50:15childhood being told by my dad that I was bad and wrong and disgusting
0:50:15 > 0:50:19and revolting and eventually I ended in a -- in an abusive religion
0:50:19 > 0:50:22should because that is what happens when you tell people they are
0:50:22 > 0:50:25worthless, when people grow up believing they are inherently bad
0:50:25 > 0:50:28and I think that is morally reprehensible and the idea that
0:50:28 > 0:50:32Christians have amorality -- monopoly on morality, look at Donald
0:50:32 > 0:50:35Trump and the majority of the Tory party are Christian and they are not
0:50:35 > 0:50:39improving people's lives.You are created in the image of God and so
0:50:39 > 0:50:45is your daughter. That means she is of infinite value. You're quite
0:50:45 > 0:50:48right, I believe in the doctrine of original sin but it teaches two
0:50:48 > 0:50:53things, one is that we are created beings, God made us, we did not make
0:50:53 > 0:50:57ourselves.God made us and that means your daughter is of infinite
0:50:57 > 0:51:01value in the eyes of God. That it is also true that the Bible teaches
0:51:01 > 0:51:06that we have a corrupt nature. We have a balance towards sin. It is
0:51:06 > 0:51:08not saying your daughter is worthless, original sin does not
0:51:08 > 0:51:14teach that.Let's talk about Ariane's daughter or theology too
0:51:14 > 0:51:17much. Jonathan, are you optimistic religion can thrive in the future,
0:51:17 > 0:51:22when we have this conversation, looking back, will it be very
0:51:22 > 0:51:26different?I think religion has a curious opportunity at the moment,
0:51:26 > 0:51:28precisely because local pubs, village halls and community centres
0:51:28 > 0:51:31are growing but churches and other religious institutions are
0:51:31 > 0:51:35wonderfully placed to offer a place of community and I think that is
0:51:35 > 0:51:38what people want, community and camaraderie and fellowship with an
0:51:38 > 0:51:41ethical base. They are not really into doctrine which is why churches
0:51:41 > 0:51:46are emptying. It is almost as if people want to believe but find they
0:51:46 > 0:51:49can't believe what is on offer so maybe the church, if you don't mind
0:51:49 > 0:51:53me saying so, as do sort of change horses a bit and concentrate on the
0:51:53 > 0:51:56community and play to its strengths, not some of its weaknesses.Thank
0:51:56 > 0:51:58you for joining us.
0:51:58 > 0:52:01In 2009, 17-year-old Henry Fraser was enjoying life.
0:52:01 > 0:52:03He loved sport and was a promising rugby player.
0:52:03 > 0:52:08But an accident in Portugal while on holiday with friends
0:52:08 > 0:52:11changed everything, leaving him paralysed from the neck down
0:52:11 > 0:52:15and facing challenges he could never have imagined.
0:52:15 > 0:52:20Wendy Robbins went to meet Henry to find out how he rebuilt his life
0:52:28 > 0:52:33Eight years ago, everything in Henry Fraser's life changed. An accident
0:52:33 > 0:52:37left him paralysed from the neck down. But that hasn't stopped him
0:52:37 > 0:52:48from pursuing new goals and dreams. Hi, Henry. How are you? VERY good,
0:52:48 > 0:52:53thank you, how are you? Very well, lovely colours. The injury that left
0:52:53 > 0:52:56Henry paralysed was caused by a split-second of bad luck while on
0:52:56 > 0:53:00holiday with friends in Portugal.I woke up late, down to the beach,
0:53:00 > 0:53:06very hot day, me and two other guys went to run to the water to cool
0:53:06 > 0:53:13down. I ran to what I thought was a good depth and I dived forward but
0:53:13 > 0:53:17where I dived, the sea bed was very undulating and I dived in and banged
0:53:17 > 0:53:25my head straight into the sea bed. I opened my eyes to be looking down
0:53:25 > 0:53:29and my arms were just dangling in front of me, not able to move at
0:53:29 > 0:53:34all. After that point, I thought that was it for me. Two of my mates
0:53:34 > 0:53:38dragged me onto the beach and from then on, kind of, everything
0:53:38 > 0:53:47changed.His mum Francesco remembers vividly the day she found out about
0:53:47 > 0:53:53the severity of her son's injury.I remember the time, I got a call at
0:53:53 > 0:53:585:30am from one of the parents and as soon as you hear it is one of the
0:53:58 > 0:54:02parents of the boys your son is away with, immediately just get that
0:54:02 > 0:54:07feeling much your whole body just... Is aware that something is not
0:54:07 > 0:54:13right. He told us Henry had had an accident. We just booked the next
0:54:13 > 0:54:17flight out.You must have been terrified.It's really weird. You
0:54:17 > 0:54:23just go into motion, you just go into the process. Once we got to
0:54:23 > 0:54:26hospital and then found the intensive care unit, we were waiting
0:54:26 > 0:54:31and waiting and then the surgeon comes in and he immediately told us
0:54:31 > 0:54:35our son was quadriplegic and would be for the rest of his life. So my
0:54:35 > 0:54:40instant reaction was to scream and he basically said, "Mrs Fraser, your
0:54:40 > 0:54:50son needs you now more than ever, so have control", and I did. OK.Two
0:54:50 > 0:54:54months after the accident, Henry caught sight of his own reflection
0:54:54 > 0:55:00for the first time.I looked at it and said, "That's not me". I had
0:55:00 > 0:55:07lost four stone. I just lost it. I was just crying, staring at the
0:55:07 > 0:55:13ceiling, then kind of just thought, "Well, there's no point in being
0:55:13 > 0:55:17sad, it has happened, I may as well just get on with it". From that day,
0:55:17 > 0:55:22my mindset completely changed, from that day, I could focus on what I
0:55:22 > 0:55:25needed to focus on and avoid anything negative or pointless or
0:55:25 > 0:55:29anything that would not help me progress.Henry is determined to
0:55:29 > 0:55:34make the most of the very few movements he is capable of, using
0:55:34 > 0:55:38the only working muscles he has at the back of his neck and it is those
0:55:38 > 0:55:42same neck muscles which now allow him to express himself so
0:55:42 > 0:55:47creatively. How did it start? What made you think, "I'm going to put a
0:55:47 > 0:55:52paintbrush in my mouth and paint like that"?It all started because I
0:55:52 > 0:55:56had a sore on my back so I was stuck in bed for a few weeks and was
0:55:56 > 0:55:59getting really bored, and thought I would find something to draw with,
0:55:59 > 0:56:04something different to do. It started that way, kind of, very
0:56:04 > 0:56:08basic drawings, and then when I was well enough to get out of bed, I
0:56:08 > 0:56:12came downstairs and was using pencils, and a few months after
0:56:12 > 0:56:16that, I was given this easel so I could use paint and paint brushes.
0:56:16 > 0:56:21What do you get out of painting in this way?It kind of gives me a
0:56:21 > 0:56:26freedom and an independence, I can sit here without needing anyone to
0:56:26 > 0:56:36come in and check on me and if I need help -- I don't need help with
0:56:36 > 0:56:39paint or changing brushes, sometimes I can sit for hours in my own world,
0:56:39 > 0:56:44doing what I want, what I love. That is really why I love it and enjoy
0:56:44 > 0:56:49doing it.Life today couldn't be more different from Henry's teenage
0:56:49 > 0:56:54years in so many ways.Before my accident, I was very physically
0:56:54 > 0:56:58strong but mentally weak, I used to say. I turned down so many
0:56:58 > 0:57:01opportunities I was given. I was too scared to do them and I was too
0:57:01 > 0:57:06scared of failing. Now any opportunity that comes to me, I will
0:57:06 > 0:57:11say yes, and if I fail, it doesn't matter, at least I can say I tried.
0:57:11 > 0:57:15Now he has a full life, juggling his two passions, motivational speaking
0:57:15 > 0:57:21and his art. You are an inspiration now to so many other people but what
0:57:21 > 0:57:25inspires you? What makes your life meaningful?I get to wake up and do
0:57:25 > 0:57:31a job, and jobs that I really love and really enjoyed and when I look
0:57:31 > 0:57:34at my life in that way, I consider myself very lucky. Honestly, I'm
0:57:34 > 0:57:40never down about my situation. I like trying to push myself now,
0:57:40 > 0:57:45whether it be during physio or with art. It has given me that joy, that
0:57:45 > 0:57:49love for creating a painting and drawing. If I hadn't had the
0:57:49 > 0:57:53accident when I was going through school, I would have given up art.
0:57:53 > 0:57:58It has given me a gift because I have been given some incredible
0:57:58 > 0:58:03opportunity through my art. I had my first ever public exhibition last
0:58:03 > 0:58:06summer. The Times commissioned me to do a piece for their front cover for
0:58:06 > 0:58:09the Rugby World Cup two years ago. I've met some incredible people
0:58:09 > 0:58:15through it as well. It has kind of taken over and given me so much.
0:58:23 > 0:58:26Henry Fraser, an inspiration.
0:58:26 > 0:58:27That's all from us for this week.
0:58:27 > 0:58:29And for this series of Sunday Morning Live.
0:58:29 > 0:58:32We hope you've enjoyed it as much as we have.
0:58:32 > 0:58:34Many thanks to all our guests today and throughout
0:58:34 > 0:58:37the series, and you at home for all of your contributions.
0:58:37 > 0:58:39For the last time this year, it's goodbye from everyone
0:58:39 > 0:58:42here in the studio, and the whole Sunday Morning Live team.
0:58:42 > 0:58:44Goodbye.