:00:07. > :00:14.The Church of England will today consider whether it should be more
:00:15. > :00:19.As some schools consider gender neutral uniforms too,
:00:20. > :00:21.we discuss is there enough understanding of
:00:22. > :00:26.Scotland is introducing a law to make it easier for doctors to use
:00:27. > :00:30.We ask should organ donation be compulsory?
:00:31. > :00:36.We meet the Yorkshire farmer who has had eight organs replaced.
:00:37. > :00:43.I am well aware of the fact that when we were told the organs had
:00:44. > :00:46.been found and I was a match, that there was a family somewhere going
:00:47. > :00:52.through absolute grief and pain. They had just lost their loved one.
:00:53. > :00:54.Also on the programme, television legend Jerry Springer,
:00:55. > :00:58.who speculates about running for President against Donald Trump.
:00:59. > :01:03.If I ran against Donald Trump in America, there really would be a
:01:04. > :01:05.wall built because you would have to build a wall to keep Americans from
:01:06. > :01:14.trying to get out. All that coming up and Samanthi
:01:15. > :01:16.Flanagan is here ready We want you to get in touch
:01:17. > :01:24.with your views on our You can contact us by
:01:25. > :01:28.Facebook and Twitter. Don't forget to use
:01:29. > :01:29.the hashtag #bbcsml. Or text SML followed
:01:30. > :01:32.by your message to 60011. Texts are charged at your
:01:33. > :01:35.standard message rate. Or email us at
:01:36. > :01:38.sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk. However you choose to get in touch,
:01:39. > :01:42.please don't forget to include your name so I can get you involved
:01:43. > :01:47.in our discussions. Let's start with an item that
:01:48. > :01:49.might get you and our guests here talking -
:01:50. > :01:51.transgender rights. Later today, the Church of England's
:01:52. > :01:57.ruling body, the General Synod, will discuss introducing a special
:01:58. > :02:07.religious ceremony to welcome in the new identity of those
:02:08. > :02:09.who are transgender. The move comes as transgender rights
:02:10. > :02:12.have become increasingly high profile, with some schools
:02:13. > :02:14.introducing gender neutral And, in a world first,
:02:15. > :02:17.a Canadian parent is currently battling to have "gender
:02:18. > :02:19.unspecified" written on their new So is there enough understanding
:02:20. > :02:22.of transgender issues? Joining us now are Juno Dawson,
:02:23. > :02:25.an author and journalist, Mike Davidson is the CEO
:02:26. > :02:29.of Core Issues Trust, Radhika Sanghani is a journalist
:02:30. > :02:31.and Dr Joanna Williams The Church is steeped in tradition
:02:32. > :02:47.and change comes slowly. Are we asking too much for the
:02:48. > :02:52.church to change like this? I don't think so. You have got to remember
:02:53. > :02:55.that being transgender and having faith are not mutually exclusive and
:02:56. > :03:00.if you are religious there should nowhere more welcoming than your
:03:01. > :03:04.place of worship, whether it is a church, mosque or synagogue. I am
:03:05. > :03:07.not especially religious but I like to think if I were Christian there
:03:08. > :03:12.would still be a home for me in the church. The church is trying to find
:03:13. > :03:16.ways of accepting transgender people. I think everybody needs to
:03:17. > :03:22.be welcome in the church of Christ but I worry. Yesterday, the General
:03:23. > :03:25.Synod passed a motion where it banned conversion therapy. People
:03:26. > :03:29.who want to go the other way, who don't want to be gay, they are not
:03:30. > :03:33.allowed to be recognised and they can't have helped. What I would call
:03:34. > :03:39.for is a real understanding before we make such a momentous change, as
:03:40. > :03:42.is about to happen. If there is a momentous change, and the General
:03:43. > :03:47.Synod are just discussing it, if they do change, would you be happy
:03:48. > :03:53.with that? I would be concerned that what we are doing is to encourage
:03:54. > :03:56.people to align their belief system and their body. In other words, they
:03:57. > :04:01.will encourage their body to follow what they believe in their mind.
:04:02. > :04:06.Christians are about renewing their mind and following the mind of
:04:07. > :04:11.Christ, very often. I think what that means is very often we have a
:04:12. > :04:17.belief system and if our bodies are going in the other direction, then
:04:18. > :04:22.what we are encouraged to do is to make sure that we make our bodies
:04:23. > :04:26.are obedient to the mind of Christ. That is a very different approach.
:04:27. > :04:31.Lots of movement over here. Nodding or shaking your head? What is
:04:32. > :04:35.interesting is how this tells us something about the importance of
:04:36. > :04:39.individual feelings, which apparently can override biology, and
:04:40. > :04:42.now the will of God as well. I am not an especially religious person
:04:43. > :04:46.but I think if you are religious, then a belief in God would be
:04:47. > :04:50.fundamental to how you perceive your own identity. It seems now we are
:04:51. > :04:55.saying to people, however you feel, if you don't feel like a man or
:04:56. > :05:15.woman, God will recognise that. Religion is irrelevant, biology is
:05:16. > :05:19.irrelevant, be whoever you want to be. Much of the debate goes around
:05:20. > :05:21.children's identity. What do you feel about that when you are giving
:05:22. > :05:24.the child the option to choose? I think that is very problematic and
:05:25. > :05:27.it can cause psychological issues with a child to say to children as
:05:28. > :05:30.young as three or five, how do you feel about your gender? Do you feel
:05:31. > :05:32.like a boy or girl? That can confuse children. Is it problematic? I
:05:33. > :05:34.completely disagree. That is suggesting that being transgender is
:05:35. > :05:40.something people choose, that it is a trend, and we know that is just
:05:41. > :05:50.not true. RNA the rest of us transgender? Just me Akpa Akpro as
:05:51. > :05:54.the person -- are any of the rest of us transgender? Just me! When I was
:05:55. > :05:59.only four I knew it was crazy that people were telling me I was a boy
:06:00. > :06:04.and this was the 80s. There was no pressure from teachers and schools
:06:05. > :06:08.or parents. I knew 100% with every inch of my being not only did I want
:06:09. > :06:19.to be a girl but all being well I was. Juno was three. Other children
:06:20. > :06:25.are under five. What is your view? You were smirking. I want to respect
:06:26. > :06:29.that experience. You haven't had that experience. I disagree. As a
:06:30. > :06:33.young man, I felt I had attractions to the same sex but there was
:06:34. > :06:37.something in my mind that told me I was not comfortable with it. I
:06:38. > :06:45.didn't buy into the notion that it was just systemic, phobia. --
:06:46. > :06:49.systemic homophobia. Just that the country were telling me they were
:06:50. > :06:54.wrong. They were my own values that made me feel that I wanted to get
:06:55. > :06:59.married, have children, and I wanted to live as a heterosexual man. I
:07:00. > :07:08.know people have different opinions, but the point here is the
:07:09. > :07:11.possibility is trans-will be recognised fully in the church and
:07:12. > :07:15.they will be encouraged but people who want to go in the direction I
:07:16. > :07:19.went and are being stopped from doing that. The reason is because it
:07:20. > :07:25.is claimed that orientation is in all cases unchangeable. What do you
:07:26. > :07:29.mean that people like you are being stopped? My clients, I work with
:07:30. > :07:34.individuals, who for whatever reason want to come out of homosexual
:07:35. > :07:40.practices. And what do you do? I work with them to support their
:07:41. > :07:46.goals. Just as Josie has a goal here. The goal to leave homosexual
:07:47. > :07:53.practices and live in a different way. It's like not being true to
:07:54. > :07:57.himself and his clients? I was not warned that there was going to be a
:07:58. > :08:00.gay conversion therapist on this show and I would not have agreed to
:08:01. > :08:08.come on because I am feeling ambushed. We don't want to get too
:08:09. > :08:13.much into that debate because it is not the issue here. It Mike being
:08:14. > :08:18.true to himself? That is for him to decide. I have not lived his
:08:19. > :08:23.experience. This is why it is very difficult. Very often I get wheeled
:08:24. > :08:31.out as the trans person to give my lived experience. That's week we had
:08:32. > :08:36.the Stonewall schools report and I am a role model, and it says eight
:08:37. > :08:38.out of ten transgender people and not just thought about killing
:08:39. > :08:48.themselves but has tried to kill themselves. Undoubtedly we have had
:08:49. > :08:53.a huge rise in the visibility of transgender people. And the fact
:08:54. > :08:59.that I am on this show, people are watching this. But we have also not
:09:00. > :09:04.had a rise in understanding. We had man gives birth on the front page of
:09:05. > :09:07.The Sun and also a uterus for men. The tone of the conversation around
:09:08. > :09:13.transgender people, we have got to move it on. It is not a freak show,
:09:14. > :09:18.not a circus. Are we getting the tone wrong? Children are incredibly
:09:19. > :09:21.unhappy. Attempting to take their lives. This is relativistic. We are
:09:22. > :09:24.throwing everything up in the air and saying you can't be whoever you
:09:25. > :09:28.want to be and we have privileged the idea of being true to yourself
:09:29. > :09:34.about biological reality. The fact is that men do not get pregnant. If
:09:35. > :09:39.you have the biological components necessary to get pregnant and give
:09:40. > :09:47.birth, you are biologically female. You are woman. We send out very
:09:48. > :09:50.confusing messages to young children who might be going through a phase.
:09:51. > :09:52.To children and adults, but especially children. Be what you
:09:53. > :09:58.want, that is your right, but when we start telling children that men
:09:59. > :10:03.can get pregnant and have babies... So how do you respond when Juno says
:10:04. > :10:07.that at three years old... I have young children and I know that young
:10:08. > :10:11.children who are three years old had all kinds of ideas about their
:10:12. > :10:14.gender and their role in the world and their individual identity. Lots
:10:15. > :10:18.of them do grow up and don't carry on thinking and feeling and acting
:10:19. > :10:22.as they did when they were three. I think it is really important that we
:10:23. > :10:29.allow children the freedom to grow and develop and recognise that.
:10:30. > :10:31.Sometimes a phase is just a phase. I think there is so much
:10:32. > :10:35.scaremongering here. People the thought of a small child in nursery
:10:36. > :10:40.hearing about trans, what will happen? This disregards the fact
:10:41. > :10:47.that there are medical experts out there. If a child feels like they
:10:48. > :10:51.are trans and they are going to go down that path, there are medical
:10:52. > :10:55.experts along the way. I just doubt that a three-year-old would wake up
:10:56. > :11:02.one day and feel like they are trans. You mention those headlines
:11:03. > :11:07.and you criticise them. Turn it on its head. Transgender activists are
:11:08. > :11:12.preventing education, the transgender police. The powerful
:11:13. > :11:17.trans lobby, one of my favourite myths, that we have power in
:11:18. > :11:24.society. Just coming here on the underground couple was giggling at
:11:25. > :11:28.me. There is no power. Going back to what was said about trans children,
:11:29. > :11:32.the greatest myth and possibly one of the most damaging, is that three
:11:33. > :11:36.and four -year-olds are being wheeled into surgery. It just
:11:37. > :11:41.doesn't happen. I used to be a primary school teacher and there was
:11:42. > :11:45.a young person in the class above me, six and seven. This was a family
:11:46. > :11:49.in crisis. A child had been born biologically male and their family
:11:50. > :11:52.was really struggling. They were referred to the Tavistock in London,
:11:53. > :11:57.the gender clinic, and nothing happened to that child in terms of
:11:58. > :12:01.medical intervention but the family received a much-needed support. As
:12:02. > :12:05.it happens, that child did go on to make steps towards a medical
:12:06. > :12:10.transition later on. Some don't. As children it is much more about
:12:11. > :12:15.having that conversation, supporting them, supporting their family. That
:12:16. > :12:23.is not medically. It is about well-being. We have got some strong
:12:24. > :12:27.comments coming in. Lee says that transgender issues are on our face
:12:28. > :12:33.constantly and we are sick of it. It has gone beyond understanding. But
:12:34. > :12:35.this person says it is about compassion, empathy and
:12:36. > :12:39.understanding, so why do trans people feel they need special
:12:40. > :12:42.treatment? Jenna says the church is doing a good thing trying to
:12:43. > :12:46.understand the world around them. Anything that can spread acceptance
:12:47. > :12:49.and love is good. And Sarah said more should be done to educate
:12:50. > :12:52.children at school about trans issues that they can understand and
:12:53. > :13:00.learn about humanism. We have put that comments to our
:13:01. > :13:04.panel. It is too much and it is shoved in our face? That couldn't be
:13:05. > :13:07.further from the truth. We are hearing more about trans issues,
:13:08. > :13:12.which is amazing, but we have not reached that level of understanding
:13:13. > :13:16.at all. The Stonewall report that was mentioned, it is everything.
:13:17. > :13:20.Teenagers are still being bullied, they are self harming, trying to
:13:21. > :13:28.kill themselves and it is horrific. There is not this level of
:13:29. > :13:32.understanding. But we know that in this country parents are not free to
:13:33. > :13:35.be involved in working through the issues with their children. Social
:13:36. > :13:39.services are stepping in and removing children from families. If
:13:40. > :13:46.society too quick to act to help people to change? I think we are
:13:47. > :13:51.getting there, slowly. I don't think they are too quick at all. I don't
:13:52. > :13:56.think anybody who has gone through this process, as Juno says, I don't
:13:57. > :13:59.think so. My heart goes out to the child that you are describing but
:14:00. > :14:03.what we have in schools at the moment goes way beyond supporting
:14:04. > :14:06.individuals. If you look at render neutral school uniforms, I have no
:14:07. > :14:13.problem with children wearing whatever they want. But when you
:14:14. > :14:17.present it in the school setting as a special gender neutral uniform
:14:18. > :14:21.because people can be gender non-binary, I think that goes way
:14:22. > :14:25.beyond supporting individuals and saying you can wear what you like.
:14:26. > :14:29.It is opening up the idea that gender is something that you can
:14:30. > :14:34.choose. I will give the final word to Juno. I worked in schools for a
:14:35. > :14:38.long time. I started to see things filtering through when I was still
:14:39. > :14:42.at the coal face, as it were. It is more about schools being prepared. I
:14:43. > :14:46.am an author now and I travel around schools with my teen fiction all the
:14:47. > :14:51.time. It is unheard of now that there wouldn't be one trans and
:14:52. > :14:55.non-binary teenager in every school that I go into. Usually the
:14:56. > :15:00.librarian introduces them to me and they are pleased to meet me and say
:15:01. > :15:04.I am their role model. That is so lovely. This conversation is
:15:05. > :15:09.reminiscent of something. I was at school in the 80s and 90s, educated
:15:10. > :15:14.under Thatcher's section 20 eight. Think of the children! Think of the
:15:15. > :15:22.children! That is what it is reminiscent of. The LGB community
:15:23. > :15:27.had made leaps forward after 1967. What have we got to worry about? The
:15:28. > :15:31.children, and they introduced that measure, and it feels like 20 years
:15:32. > :15:35.on that is where we are right with trans awareness in schools. There is
:15:36. > :15:36.this slight hysteria. Think of the children, but actually the children
:15:37. > :15:41.are fine. Not a lot of agreement but a really
:15:42. > :15:47.interesting debate. Now let's meet a man who has
:15:48. > :15:49.written his own chapter in television history -
:15:50. > :15:51.Jerry Springer. His show, a mixture of confrontation
:15:52. > :15:54.and confession played out in front of a raucous studio audience,
:15:55. > :15:56.has been panned and praised. But it is still running
:15:57. > :15:58.after 25 years. Jerry has also been
:15:59. > :16:00.a news presenter, actor, musician and politician,
:16:01. > :16:16.most notably as Democratic Jerry! Jerry!
:16:17. > :16:21.I was told I was going to be interviewed you, Jerry Springer, and
:16:22. > :16:27.all I wanted to do was say Jerry! Jerry! Does that happen to you?
:16:28. > :16:32.Constantly. 25 years and counting of your show, why does it have this
:16:33. > :16:37.continued appeal? It is so outrageous, it is a circus. It is an
:16:38. > :16:44.escape for an hour of what people do our lives. The first show would
:16:45. > :16:49.probably be crazy. It kind of becomes part of pop culture. You can
:16:50. > :16:54.say I am having a Jerry Springer moment and everyone knows what you
:16:55. > :16:59.are talking about. In any way, do you think the set of could be seen
:17:00. > :17:03.as exploitative? That is not right, everything is voluntary. You have
:17:04. > :17:07.too want to be on and you get to talk about whatever you want to talk
:17:08. > :17:14.about. Now, because these people don't have a lot of money we say,
:17:15. > :17:19.oh, they are trash. But you have wealthy people, famous people,
:17:20. > :17:23.good-looking people doing the exact same things and they write books and
:17:24. > :17:28.they appear on the late-night shows, talk about the latest person they
:17:29. > :17:33.slept with, drugs, whatever, and we cheer them. It is a double standard.
:17:34. > :17:40.Do you still enjoy doing it? About the only reason I do it is because
:17:41. > :17:43.it is fun. If we went out to dinner one evening and I would say, how was
:17:44. > :17:48.your day? You would tell me how your day was and you would say, how was
:17:49. > :17:55.yours? I would say, well, I got this guy who married his horse. Who is
:17:56. > :18:00.going to have a better story? And that happens, you featured a guy who
:18:01. > :18:06.married his horse. Yes. You have a soft spot for the UK, you were
:18:07. > :18:11.born... I was born here, I am an Anglophile. You were born in a tube
:18:12. > :18:16.station during the war. I was told at Highgate. I had to tell you, I
:18:17. > :18:22.don't remember. More personally about you, on the BBC you Today
:18:23. > :18:28.Programme, Who Do You Think You Are,, which looked at your history.
:18:29. > :18:33.-- on the BBC you did a problem. Your family roots, some terrible
:18:34. > :18:39.stories in certain circumstances? It blew me away.
:18:40. > :18:42.My sister and I grew up new wing that we had lost family, they were
:18:43. > :18:50.killed in Nazi Germany before we were born.
:18:51. > :18:51.Where was she sent? Resettled is a euphemism for being deported to the
:18:52. > :19:13.extermination camp. When I look back, my parents
:19:14. > :19:18.sheltered us. We did not notice those scars. When my dad got near
:19:19. > :19:22.80, that is the first time I noticed, there is this story, my mum
:19:23. > :19:29.was scared to death of him driving. She always wanted him to sell the
:19:30. > :19:35.car. One day I said, mum coming you get so nervous, you would do is such
:19:36. > :19:43.a favour if you got rid of it. And he says... He said, well, I'll keep
:19:44. > :19:51.the car until I80, because you never know when you have to getaway. I am
:19:52. > :19:55.going, oh, my. It stuns me, even until this day. He was standing
:19:56. > :19:59.there and he was dead serious. He was not saying it is something
:20:00. > :20:06.dramatic. We had been living in America for... This was the mid-80s,
:20:07. > :20:13.so for 35 years already. And I went, how often... ? How often must see
:20:14. > :20:17.have thought? Did he think about that every night? Was he always
:20:18. > :20:25.afraid every time the telephone rang or banging on the front door?
:20:26. > :20:29.Having those little insights towards the end of your father's life into
:20:30. > :20:36.what was perhaps going through the... His mind, did it change how
:20:37. > :20:39.you viewed people? My whole thing about this whole issue of
:20:40. > :20:43.immigration and everything like that, boy, what these poor people
:20:44. > :20:49.must be going through. These people are trying to get away. They are
:20:50. > :20:55.families, children, they want to live. Why would we ever not want to
:20:56. > :21:01.do everything we can to help them? Did you have faith growing up? You
:21:02. > :21:08.are from Jewish parents? I go to temple, belong to the temple,
:21:09. > :21:11.support it. I am very Jewish. People sometimes lose some face when they
:21:12. > :21:17.learn more about those awful stories. We are not sure perhaps how
:21:18. > :21:23.God operates or whatever, and I don't pretend to know. Here is what
:21:24. > :21:30.I know. 99% of what we are is just a gift. Under any moral, whatever your
:21:31. > :21:34.religion, you say thank you. And the way you say thank you is by giving
:21:35. > :21:38.something back, by doing something for others, treating them well. To
:21:39. > :21:43.realise that could have been me. So of course I will try to help a
:21:44. > :21:47.refugee, I will not make fun of somebody because they are not as
:21:48. > :21:53.smart as me, let's say, or whatever. You sound like you have a good
:21:54. > :21:57.perspective from your upbringing. You were elected mayor of Cincinnati
:21:58. > :22:05.in your early 30s, that was your proudest moment? It is the best job
:22:06. > :22:07.I had. Do you see yourself re-entering politics? I am
:22:08. > :22:12.announcing my candidacy for Prime Minister of Great Britain. I think
:22:13. > :22:17.we can do better. At the moment anything can happen, now we have a
:22:18. > :22:23.reality TV star in the White House. I am so sorry, I hope I am not
:22:24. > :22:27.responsible for that. We're not talking President Springer? I was
:22:28. > :22:30.born in England. Even if I could run for president, if I ran against
:22:31. > :22:34.Trump in America there really would be a wall built, you would have to
:22:35. > :22:41.to keep Americans from trying to get out. Trump/ Springer, I am out of
:22:42. > :22:47.here! He would like that, the ratings would be good. Can you
:22:48. > :22:49.imagine that debate? For my Jerry Springer moment, I feel like I
:22:50. > :22:55.should throw a chair at you or something, this has been very calm.
:22:56. > :22:58.Don't go Jerry Springer on me! I won't. Thank you so much, I have
:22:59. > :23:00.really enjoyed talking to you. And I'm glad Emma didn't
:23:01. > :23:04.throw that chair at him! Still to come on
:23:05. > :23:06.Sunday Morning Live: The survivor of the 7/7 London
:23:07. > :23:09.bombings working with Muslim mothers to stop their children turning
:23:10. > :23:21.to terrorism. Mothers are the change-makers, they
:23:22. > :23:25.protect their children, they are able to nurture and prevent them
:23:26. > :23:34.from becoming radicalised. The Scottish Government has
:23:35. > :23:38.announced plans to bring in a new system of encouraging
:23:39. > :23:40.people to donate organs. It will be based on the idea
:23:41. > :23:43.of presumed consent. Patients are assumed to agree
:23:44. > :23:44.to donate potentially life-saving organs after death,
:23:45. > :23:46.unless their families A similar system was introduced
:23:47. > :23:50.in Wales in 2015 but in the rest of the UK you have to opt in,
:23:51. > :23:54.with a donor card, for instance. We'll discuss the issues
:23:55. > :23:59.involved in a moment. First let's meet Adam Alderson,
:24:00. > :24:10.a Yorkshire farmer who owes his As far as I knew I was a fit and
:24:11. > :24:14.healthy young man with the rest of my life to look forward to with my
:24:15. > :24:21.partner, Laura. In 2013I was diagnosed with a rare form of
:24:22. > :24:26.cancer. I had never heard of it at the time. It took me a few years to
:24:27. > :24:32.be able to say the word. At the time I was told it was widespread. Once
:24:33. > :24:37.they opened me up, they realised the disease was much further advanced
:24:38. > :24:42.and nothing more could be done, really. I was home, palliative care
:24:43. > :24:49.was not really a future to look forward to. I did not know how long.
:24:50. > :24:54.I was essentially dying with not a lot of life to live and I was
:24:55. > :24:58.really, really poorly. The pain was just ridiculous. I could not eat any
:24:59. > :25:03.more through my mouth, it was through a tube to my stomach. It was
:25:04. > :25:08.a bleak existence. I didn't give up. I am a
:25:09. > :25:13.Yorkshireman. I took the attitude of this will not be to me. The only
:25:14. > :25:19.option to remove that disease meant having an organ transplant. At that
:25:20. > :25:24.time there were only three of these operations done, so the risks were
:25:25. > :25:28.quite high, but what was the alternative? I was going to die
:25:29. > :25:33.anyway. I wanted to go through with it. The operation took 17 hours and
:25:34. > :25:39.involves removing most of my abdominal organs, including my
:25:40. > :25:44.stomach, small bowel, large bowel, pancreas, spleen, gall bladder and
:25:45. > :25:50.abdominal wall. Also my liver was shaved quite hard as well. Then I
:25:51. > :25:54.was transplanted with new organs from a donor. And then I was given
:25:55. > :26:00.the news when I came around, by my wife, that it had been 100% success.
:26:01. > :26:04.I did not believe it at first, Laura had to get the surgeon that did the
:26:05. > :26:11.operation to come and confirm that I was OK. OK with the new organs and a
:26:12. > :26:14.new life. Not only do I feel really well, I run now, I did the three
:26:15. > :26:19.peaks a few weeks ago in less than ten hours, which is a fine
:26:20. > :26:23.achievement. I got married five weeks ago. We are about to embark on
:26:24. > :26:32.the adventure of a lifetime. I came up with this idea of doing a 10,000
:26:33. > :26:37.to 15,000 mile trek through Europe into Asia, ending up in a land that
:26:38. > :26:40.tall, Mongolia. You could call it a honeymoon, it is the first holiday
:26:41. > :26:45.since the wedding. I am well and have a life to look forward to. I am
:26:46. > :26:50.aware of the fact that when we were told the organs had been found and I
:26:51. > :26:55.was a match, that there was a family somewhere going through absolute
:26:56. > :26:59.grief and pain. They had just lost their loved one. Since the operation
:27:00. > :27:04.I have written to the donor, which was tough, I did not know where to
:27:05. > :27:10.start to thank them for that decision in those hours of grief and
:27:11. > :27:15.need. My opinion on the opt out is that I think if you are willing to
:27:16. > :27:16.receive organs to save your life, then let's be willing to donate them
:27:17. > :27:20.to save someone else's. Adam Alderson, with a lot
:27:21. > :27:22.to thank organ donors for. So should organ
:27:23. > :27:24.donation be compulsory? Joining me now are Charles Michael
:27:25. > :27:26.Duke, a vlogger and campaigner, Rabbi Jeremy Lawrence is senior
:27:27. > :27:31.rabbi at Finchley United Synagogue, Gurch Randhawa is a professor
:27:32. > :27:34.in diversity and public health and Sally Bee is
:27:35. > :27:46.a health campaigner. Charles, starting with you, Tevez
:27:47. > :27:50.your current situation? Currently I am waiting for a double lung
:27:51. > :27:56.transplant, which I have been for over two years now. It is because of
:27:57. > :28:00.something called cystic fibrosis, which I was diagnosed with at birth.
:28:01. > :28:04.I carried on living with that condition, and still do, up until
:28:05. > :28:08.about 18 when I was approached, really, with the fact that my health
:28:09. > :28:12.had got to a point where my lungs were no longer fit for purpose and I
:28:13. > :28:17.needed new ones. How did you feel when you got bad news? Very hard to
:28:18. > :28:23.take up the time, I was adamant I did not need one and I would be
:28:24. > :28:31.fine. I did not feel it was something I needed. I am an actor, I
:28:32. > :28:35.was on stage doing a show and my lung collapsed. I finished the show.
:28:36. > :28:41.I did not know my lung collapsed at the time. Just a lot of pain?
:28:42. > :28:45.Adrenaline got me through it, I felt weird, I went to hospital the next
:28:46. > :28:49.day, asking for antibiotics to get to the rest of the shows and they
:28:50. > :28:54.said, Charles, your loan has collapsed. This was on Christmas Eve
:28:55. > :29:00.to add to the sob story! So I went into hospital and it was the turning
:29:01. > :29:05.point for me to make me realise that it was something that I needed if I
:29:06. > :29:11.wanted to one, carry on living and two, have a life rather than just
:29:12. > :29:17.exist. That was over two years ago. Gurch, so many people need Ocon logo
:29:18. > :29:20.and orders, including Charles. -- organ donors. We should change the
:29:21. > :29:26.rules so it is opt out throughout the whole country? We have seen from
:29:27. > :29:29.Adam's story the huge life transforming achievement that
:29:30. > :29:36.transplantation can have. Three people a day are sadly dying waiting
:29:37. > :29:40.for a transplant and we need to look at the evidence, which shows that
:29:41. > :29:43.most people who refuse organ donation refuse because they say is
:29:44. > :29:50.a family we never discussed organ donation. The key challenge for us
:29:51. > :29:54.as a society is how do we ensure that conversations around organ
:29:55. > :29:59.donation take place. At the moment in the UK family consent rates are
:30:00. > :30:04.about 60%, if we could get those up to about 80% we would radically
:30:05. > :30:08.reduce the number of people waiting for a transplant. Slobodan opt out
:30:09. > :30:14.system work better? It would be a big change, look at Wales? -- so
:30:15. > :30:19.would an opt out system work better? There has not been an increase in
:30:20. > :30:24.family consent rates in Wales. They say in Wales, the Government, there
:30:25. > :30:28.are more oak -- organ donors and more people are being saved, if you
:30:29. > :30:32.listen to the Government. The number of transplants have increased. In
:30:33. > :30:37.the UK we introduced lots of clinical training, and increased
:30:38. > :30:43.number of trained surgeons had transplantation. Over 2008 and 2013
:30:44. > :30:48.B had a 50% increase in organ donations in the whole UK, which is
:30:49. > :30:52.possible, but the key thing is how do we drive up family consent rates?
:30:53. > :30:57.It does not change if you have opting in or opting out, we have to
:30:58. > :31:00.solved this by having schools, colleges, places of worship,
:31:01. > :31:05.business sector, everybody talking about organ donation. Sally, nothing
:31:06. > :31:12.will change if we have opt in or opt out?
:31:13. > :31:19.I don't believe in opting out. I think it has got to be a
:31:20. > :31:23.conversation. Speaking as a potential recipient or donor in the
:31:24. > :31:27.future, it seems to me that if the whole of society thinks we are on
:31:28. > :31:31.the list anyway, it takes women need to have the conversation. It doesn't
:31:32. > :31:36.matter if anybody is on the list if their next of kin withdraws the
:31:37. > :31:39.consent, the consent is gone. Doesn't having an opt out system
:31:40. > :31:44.encouraged the conversation? No, I think it has the opposite effect. It
:31:45. > :31:48.makes people sit back on their laurels and think it is a foregone
:31:49. > :31:50.conclusion that actually it isn't. You have got to have the
:31:51. > :31:54.conversation and everything we can possibly do to make sure that more
:31:55. > :31:58.people have a conversation with their families to understand. I have
:31:59. > :32:02.sat down with my family. I have three children and two have agreed.
:32:03. > :32:06.My 13-year-old has said she doesn't believe in it and if anything
:32:07. > :32:11.happens to you, I don't want you to be cut up and I don't want anything
:32:12. > :32:14.happening. This is an ongoing conversation I need to have with her
:32:15. > :32:22.as time goes on to make sure she understands fully. Obviously working
:32:23. > :32:25.in this arena, but if I wasn't, if the government just decided
:32:26. > :32:28.everybody was on the organ donor list, I don't think I would have
:32:29. > :32:33.that conversation with my family, which is the most important part of
:32:34. > :32:37.this. Sally says that she is a potential donor and receiver and you
:32:38. > :32:42.are receiver. Do you agree with that? I completely agree with the
:32:43. > :32:47.fact that the conversation, no matter what system is in place, is
:32:48. > :32:52.by far one of the most important things. Would you be in favour of
:32:53. > :32:56.opt out? Personally, I am in favour of opt out. There is evidence to
:32:57. > :33:02.support the fact that it does increase the pool of potential
:33:03. > :33:05.donors, which increases the pool of organs being donated and it
:33:06. > :33:11.increases my chance of receiving a transplant. I am all in favour of an
:33:12. > :33:15.opt out. But it is a soft opt out meaning the family can withdraw
:33:16. > :33:20.consent, and at the moment we are in a soft opt in which means the family
:33:21. > :33:23.can withdraw consent. While I disagree with your views on whether
:33:24. > :33:26.or not opt out is right, I completely agree that the
:33:27. > :33:30.conversation and dialogue should happen. Which is why we are having
:33:31. > :33:36.this discussion on Sunday morning and that is brilliant and
:33:37. > :33:39.encouraging people to talk about it with their families. It is nice to
:33:40. > :33:44.have a panel that agrees on one thing, if not the same way. Why
:33:45. > :33:47.shouldn't everybody have to donate their organs? From a religious
:33:48. > :33:53.perspective, our bodies and our lives are not entirely our own. When
:33:54. > :34:00.we die, we take nothing with us. That we have no property and once we
:34:01. > :34:03.are dead, it is not our body to dispose of, but even more it is not
:34:04. > :34:09.the state to make that decision for us. I am not a state person. I think
:34:10. > :34:13.that people should be donors and they should choose to be donors. I
:34:14. > :34:20.had the discussion with my family when I became convinced of that. My
:34:21. > :34:25.confidence in being a donor should the need arise is not because I
:34:26. > :34:29.carry a donor card saying that according to religious practice,
:34:30. > :34:32.Jewish religious practice, I am happy to be a donor and it is not
:34:33. > :34:36.because I'm listed on any registry, but it is because I know that my
:34:37. > :34:40.wife and my children although that is what I want. I am not going to be
:34:41. > :34:44.the person making that choice. I am not going to be the person concerned
:34:45. > :34:48.about my body after the event. I am not going to be the person worrying
:34:49. > :34:51.in hospital about whether or not my heart or lungs or kidney or any
:34:52. > :34:56.other organ are going to be of use to people. My family are the people
:34:57. > :35:02.who will be worried about that, and they know it is what I want. They
:35:03. > :35:05.know they can go to their rabbi, not me under the circumstances, that
:35:06. > :35:11.they can go to their rabbi, who knows what is the point of death
:35:12. > :35:12.according to Jewish law and how to affect my wishes. What have you got
:35:13. > :35:16.for us? I'm joined now by Alex Rosenberg,
:35:17. > :35:18.an intensive care consultant at Brompton and Harefield Hospital
:35:19. > :35:25.in South East London. Good morning. When somebody dies,
:35:26. > :35:30.what is the process you need to go through to get permission for their
:35:31. > :35:34.organs to be donated? The first and really vital step of the process is
:35:35. > :35:38.that the patient has got to have received all of the treatment that
:35:39. > :35:43.they should for their condition. And it be decided by the team, in
:35:44. > :35:46.conjunction with the patient's family, that unfortunately they will
:35:47. > :35:50.not survive the illness, and at that stage we reach a point where we can
:35:51. > :35:56.start to consider organ donation. It has got to be at the end of that
:35:57. > :35:59.patient's active management. There are some concerns that people think
:36:00. > :36:02.if they are on the donor list then they might not be getting the full
:36:03. > :36:08.treatment because their organs are valuable. Is that a legitimate
:36:09. > :36:13.concern? Absolutely not. One of the things we have got to really convey
:36:14. > :36:17.to anyone watching this, anyone we speak to about this, being on the
:36:18. > :36:23.organ donation list has no affect on the treatment you receive. The two
:36:24. > :36:26.things are entirely separate. Once you get to the end of your
:36:27. > :36:32.treatment, at that stage, we consider whether or not someone is
:36:33. > :36:39.possible to be an organ donor. There are two routes by which they can
:36:40. > :36:44.become one. One of which is that two highly specialised doctors with a
:36:45. > :36:48.great deal of training can do lots of examinations and prove that the
:36:49. > :36:53.patient's brain has no function whatsoever, in which case we can
:36:54. > :36:58.declare the patient brain dead, and they are in a state where they can
:36:59. > :37:02.go to the operating theatre and the organs can be retrieved. We have
:37:03. > :37:06.heard a lot about people's families making this decision at an emotional
:37:07. > :37:10.time and the panel have taught difficult that conversation is. Is.
:37:11. > :37:21.Is there too much responsibility on the family to make that decision at
:37:22. > :37:24.the moment? That is very difficult. The onus of responsibility should be
:37:25. > :37:28.on the individual. If you believe that you want to be an organ donor
:37:29. > :37:32.which I personally do and I believe other people should as well, then
:37:33. > :37:34.they should convey those views to their family. Then the
:37:35. > :37:42.responsibility is not on the family. They are just giving their
:37:43. > :37:49.relative's wishes after they are not able to any more. We have asked
:37:50. > :37:52.whether organ donation should be compulsory and Tadd says it is anti
:37:53. > :37:57.freedom because my body belongs to me after death. The government has
:37:58. > :38:00.no right to my body. I am an organ donor and I don't know why people
:38:01. > :38:07.are squeamish. Take what you need. It will rock or the burned away. And
:38:08. > :38:09.this one on Twitter, everyone's body should be available after death
:38:10. > :38:14.because it saves lives and that is more important than religious
:38:15. > :38:18.beliefs. But this one, if you're not registered as a donor, then you
:38:19. > :38:23.can't receive an organ yourself. Very interesting points. Yes, this
:38:24. > :38:27.is a difficult area. How do we go about getting more people to have
:38:28. > :38:34.the conversation? That is what we are all agreed on. By discussing it
:38:35. > :38:38.here on national television, going into schools, having people at their
:38:39. > :38:45.places of work talking about it. It is by us starting to push that first
:38:46. > :38:48.domino, as it were, starting the conversation somewhere on a big
:38:49. > :38:51.platform and hoping that people at home continue to have that
:38:52. > :38:57.conversation in their own homes with their families. And that is that. I
:38:58. > :39:01.think that is how we do it. You have had the last word in our debate but
:39:02. > :39:02.not the last word on all of this because we hope the conversation
:39:03. > :39:06.will continue. Thank you to you all. This week marked the 12th
:39:07. > :39:09.anniversary of a day when 52 people were killed and more than 700
:39:10. > :39:12.injured when four bombs went off One of the people on a Tube train
:39:13. > :39:20.that was attacked was Sajda Mughal. That moment changed her life,
:39:21. > :39:33.as Wendy Robbins discovered. Even today, 12 years on, when I get
:39:34. > :39:38.onto the tube, it brings it all back to me. When I do, I relive the whole
:39:39. > :39:43.experience. The 7th of July, 2005, began like any other working day for
:39:44. > :39:49.London at Sajda Mughal. She went to her local tube station and headed
:39:50. > :39:53.for her usual spot in the front carriage. It was a busy morning of
:39:54. > :39:57.the platform was very busy. I got onto the tube somewhere in the
:39:58. > :40:01.middle. If I had got into the first carriage, I would not be alive today
:40:02. > :40:06.telling you my story. Just seconds after the train left King's Cross, a
:40:07. > :40:12.huge explosion ripped through that front carriage. What do you remember
:40:13. > :40:17.after the bomb went off? The train shook. Thick black smoke was filling
:40:18. > :40:22.up the carriages. I had to take my blazer off to cover my face. People
:40:23. > :40:27.started to bang on the doors and the windows, kicking at them. I thought
:40:28. > :40:34.this was it. 7th of July, 2005, the day that I die. The tube train had
:40:35. > :40:38.been targeted by suicide bomber Jermaine Lindsay. He was one of four
:40:39. > :40:42.terrorists whose attacks killed 52 people and injured hundreds more
:40:43. > :40:48.that day. What were your thoughts when you realised these bombings had
:40:49. > :40:55.been carried out by Muslim men? That shocked me. I am a Muslim. I know
:40:56. > :41:01.this is not what Islam teaches us in any way. It says in the Koran to
:41:02. > :41:09.take one innocent life is as if you have taken the whole of humanity and
:41:10. > :41:12.mankind. I knew from that point that these four individuals had been
:41:13. > :41:18.brainwashed and the question was how could we have prevented this from
:41:19. > :41:27.happening? Part of the answer, she believes, lies with Muslim mothers.
:41:28. > :41:31.Sajda gave up her job in banking to teach a ground-breaking programme
:41:32. > :41:33.which teaches women to spot early signs of radicalisation in their
:41:34. > :41:39.families and tackles the dangers of online extremism. Ladies, what are
:41:40. > :41:50.the types of signs that you think you would notice if maybe your child
:41:51. > :41:53.or your relative was on this pathway of extremism? Today she is then
:41:54. > :41:59.touring local mothers in Portsmouth, home to a reported eight people who
:42:00. > :42:03.have joined jihadist groups in Syria and Iraq. These mothers have been
:42:04. > :42:10.asked to be filmed anonymously. What brings you to the course today?
:42:11. > :42:15.Portsmouth has suffered quite badly with extremism in the past. We don't
:42:16. > :42:19.want another family to be affected. Through the programme we are
:42:20. > :42:24.learning that it is subtle changes in children that mothers can spot
:42:25. > :42:28.first of all. Mothers are the first point of contact. If they know what
:42:29. > :42:32.is going on, they know what signs to look out for in their children. The
:42:33. > :42:39.internet is playing a part in radicalising individuals.
:42:40. > :42:43.Specifically young people. I developed the web guardians
:42:44. > :42:46.programme for them. This raises awareness and highlighted and that
:42:47. > :42:52.while the internet can be a good place, it is also a dangerous place.
:42:53. > :42:59.We are talking about the signs to look out for if their loved one is
:43:00. > :43:04.at risk. The kinds of conversations they can start having, how they can
:43:05. > :43:06.take an active part in their lives. How do you have that conversation
:43:07. > :43:11.with your child? What have you learned about that? To be open and
:43:12. > :43:17.honest with them. To discuss things we see on the news. To ask them if
:43:18. > :43:20.anything is troubling them, they have heard anything. The important
:43:21. > :43:27.thing is to build that relationship an early age. So that children can
:43:28. > :43:33.come to the mums and dads. Mothers are the change-makers. When you
:43:34. > :43:37.educate and empower them, they protect their children. They are
:43:38. > :43:43.able to nurture their children, they are able to prevent them from
:43:44. > :43:46.becoming radicalised. That then means that we protect ourselves and
:43:47. > :43:51.society from being affected by terrorist attacks. Sitting here at
:43:52. > :43:57.King's Cross, reliving the memories, it is very hard. Knowing what I know
:43:58. > :44:02.and what happened on that day, the 7th of July 2005, would I get back
:44:03. > :44:10.onto that tube on the Piccadilly line? Yes. Because of the work that
:44:11. > :44:15.I do and the difference it makes to prevent attacks and radicalisation.
:44:16. > :44:17.Sajda Mughal and her work to stop radicalisation.
:44:18. > :44:20.Now, school assembly is a familiar part of many children's lives.
:44:21. > :44:23.It's also a time when mainstream schools in England and Wales
:44:24. > :44:25.are required to have an act of worship, broadly Christian-based,
:44:26. > :44:28.unless their parents choose that their children opt out.
:44:29. > :44:31.But two high school pupils in Cardiff have launched a petition
:44:32. > :44:33.calling on the Welsh Assembly to end compulsory collective
:44:34. > :44:36.And one of them, 15-year-old Rhiannon Shipton, joins
:44:37. > :44:43.us now with her dad, Martin.
:44:44. > :44:49.Good morning. Rhiannon, why do you think it is not right to hold
:44:50. > :44:53.prayers in school? Lots of us are atheists or from other religions so
:44:54. > :44:56.I do not think it is fair we are forced into religious prayers when
:44:57. > :45:02.we do not believe in what is being said? About what to others say in
:45:03. > :45:06.school? Some agree with it because they have the same beliefs and they
:45:07. > :45:12.think it is pointless to be reciting the Lord's Prayer, but the Christian
:45:13. > :45:17.ones -- lots of them agree with us but some of them think we are
:45:18. > :45:22.against Christian rights. Do you really feel forced? Can't you just
:45:23. > :45:28.opt out and not do anything during prayers? I think it is wrong, the
:45:29. > :45:32.fact that we have to do it. Sometimes the teachers keep you in
:45:33. > :45:37.if you don't say it and they make you say it loudly enough until you
:45:38. > :45:39.have left the room. Martin, be honest, did you force your daughter
:45:40. > :45:52.to do this? No, she was coming home from school,
:45:53. > :45:56.complaining about it several times. I know her friends did the same with
:45:57. > :45:58.their parents. I said, don't just complain, do something. I told her
:45:59. > :46:00.that the Welsh Assembly has a procedure where you can raise an
:46:01. > :46:04.online petition and get a committee at the Assembly to look at it and it
:46:05. > :46:09.went from bad. She went and saw the clerks of the committee, the online
:46:10. > :46:14.petition was set up and it went to where it is now. I have teenagers,
:46:15. > :46:21.my kids complain about a lot, I don't get them to do a petition. Are
:46:22. > :46:33.you taking it too far? I don't think so, it is principal and comes
:46:34. > :46:37.down to a matter of human rights and children's rights. I think it is
:46:38. > :46:40.wrong in 2017 that we still expect children to save the Lord's Prayer
:46:41. > :46:42.when they don't want to. Good to talk to you, Rhiannon and Martin.
:46:43. > :46:50.The Welsh government says that the collective worship should be
:46:51. > :46:53.sensitive to the beliefs and non-beliefs of different peoples and
:46:54. > :46:54.they may opt out and schools must adhere to that.
:46:55. > :46:56.We're all used to charities asking for donations.
:46:57. > :46:58.But what happens when that becomes pestering?
:46:59. > :47:00.Well, this week new rules have been introduced to clamp down
:47:01. > :47:02.on charities making nuisance requests for money.
:47:03. > :47:05.The Fundraising Preference Service will allow people to say they want
:47:06. > :47:07.a specified charity to stop contacting them by phone,
:47:08. > :47:10.And if they don't comply, the charities could face heavy fines.
:47:11. > :47:14.I met the chairman of the regulator, Lord Grade, and asked him why
:47:15. > :47:24.I think there has definitely been a backlash by the British public,
:47:25. > :47:31.generally, to some bad cases. People are saying, yeah, we are fed up with
:47:32. > :47:34.being pressurised. It puts at risk the incredible goodwill and
:47:35. > :47:39.generosity of the British public. What is wrong with some of the new
:47:40. > :47:42.ways that charities fundraising? There are laws about if you hold
:47:43. > :47:48.somebody's data willingly, if you give your details to -- to somebody
:47:49. > :47:54.they cannot pass that on to anybody they want, that is a basic rule,
:47:55. > :47:58.that is a law of the land. Then there is the question of if you are
:47:59. > :48:03.being bombarded, how do you stop it? You should have the right to be able
:48:04. > :48:07.to say I do not want to hear from you guys. I want to hear from you,
:48:08. > :48:13.but not you. We need to give the public the means to get control of
:48:14. > :48:17.that, which is what we have just launched, the Fundraising Preference
:48:18. > :48:23.Service. How exactly does that work? You can tell us online or on the
:48:24. > :48:29.phone that you want to hear from A, B, C charity but not X, Y, Z. That
:48:30. > :48:35.is registered and the charity is obliged not to contact you again. We
:48:36. > :48:41.have a possibility, ultimately, of charities being fined up to ?25,000,
:48:42. > :48:46.is that enough of a deterrent for the big charities making millions?
:48:47. > :48:49.The power to give fines rests with the information commissioner's
:48:50. > :48:54.office, if they deem a charity has breached the laws and the codes on
:48:55. > :49:01.data sharing they are entitled to find them, it could be ?25,000, ?1
:49:02. > :49:06.million, ?25. Could this lead to charities going of business? I think
:49:07. > :49:10.the risk of doing nothing, in the long term, would be much more
:49:11. > :49:14.damaging. We are a very giving nation and we have to nurture that
:49:15. > :49:18.and cherish it. And keep the goodwill of the British public,
:49:19. > :49:25.meaning charities ethically fundraising. If we go on unchecked
:49:26. > :49:28.the way we work, I think there would have been a real public backlash.
:49:29. > :49:30.Lord Grade, making sure charities toe the line.
:49:31. > :49:33.Are violent prisoners being released too early?
:49:34. > :49:36.That question has been raised after latest figures reveal that
:49:37. > :49:38.between 2012 and 2016, offenders on probation were charged
:49:39. > :49:44.with nearly 400 murders and around 2,300 violent and sexual offences.
:49:45. > :49:46.So what is the balance between allowing criminals out
:49:47. > :49:48.under supervision as part of their rehabilitation versus
:49:49. > :49:55.Here to discuss that are Mark Johnson -
:49:56. > :49:58.a former prisoner and now founder of the charity User Voice -
:49:59. > :50:01.and Peter Cuthbertson, the director of the Centre for Crime
:50:02. > :50:14.The re-offending rates we've heard about this week are pretty shocking.
:50:15. > :50:16.Wouldn't we all be safer if we locked violent
:50:17. > :50:27.And we did not release them early on licence? Basically, I think you have
:50:28. > :50:30.a situation at the moment, I think those figures show you that we put
:50:31. > :50:35.people in the system but do not do anything with them while they are in
:50:36. > :50:39.there. That is why we have had historically high reconviction rates
:50:40. > :50:46.overall. We have always had this thing. My point would be that it is
:50:47. > :50:50.what we do the minute they go in. At the moment we have had Justice cut
:50:51. > :50:57.by half, prison staffing numbers cut by half, privatisation, 70% of
:50:58. > :51:02.probation services. There is no money to get involved in the real
:51:03. > :51:06.point, rehabilitation. Rehabilitation is a good word,
:51:07. > :51:11.surely that is the aim, to rehabilitate prisoners so they can
:51:12. > :51:15.come out and not reoffend? It is very important and always worth
:51:16. > :51:18.attempting, but the attack -- the offenders themselves choose to
:51:19. > :51:22.commit crimes again and again. By the time the average person gets to
:51:23. > :51:25.prison they have committed so many offences they are already hardened
:51:26. > :51:40.criminals and turning them around is very difficult.
:51:41. > :51:44.I agree with your question, putting them in for longer sentences work in
:51:45. > :51:46.protecting the public and they have a lower reoffending rates. So they
:51:47. > :51:48.choose to become criminals, or once they have become criminals they
:51:49. > :51:51.cannot get back into society? Everyone chooses to commit crimes or
:51:52. > :51:55.not. But people have different questions and follow different
:51:56. > :51:58.routes -- different chances. Lets be realistic with what you can do with
:51:59. > :52:02.hardened criminals. For every nice case of a life turnaround there are
:52:03. > :52:06.thousands of victims of crime because we release people after
:52:07. > :52:10.short sentences. Hardened criminals, people who have done really bad
:52:11. > :52:16.stuff, there are victims and families affected. Are they beyond
:52:17. > :52:22.repair? For me the whole issue is really emotive. Rather than
:52:23. > :52:25.having... We have this political environment in which house to be
:52:26. > :52:30.seen to be tough on crime. We have had five Justice ministers over this
:52:31. > :52:35.term of Government, they tinker with the system and do not get to the
:52:36. > :52:40.real point to say how do we change somebody's behaviour? We know where
:52:41. > :52:45.the journey starts with offending, you have just said that, coming from
:52:46. > :52:50.dysfunctional childhood. 70% of the people in prison at the moment have
:52:51. > :52:55.drink and drug related and mental health issues, but we are just
:52:56. > :53:00.locking them up. That is no consolation to the family of a
:53:01. > :53:04.murder victim, relatives of a murder victim, would you look them in the
:53:05. > :53:08.eye and tell them that, that we need to rehabilitate? Someone might have
:53:09. > :53:13.committed an awful crime against them. What I would advocate is
:53:14. > :53:18.educating people on what rehabilitation is. I do not think
:53:19. > :53:22.prisons are behind four waltz, people get educated via the tabloids
:53:23. > :53:27.and the tabloids are generated by this very emotive polarised view of
:53:28. > :53:32.murderers and stuff like that. I have taken a lot of the public into
:53:33. > :53:37.prison to see our work, etc, they never had the same perception coming
:53:38. > :53:45.out as they did when they went in. When Eubank somebody up the 24 hours
:53:46. > :53:50.a day, -- when you bang somebody up for 24 hours a day and let them out,
:53:51. > :53:55.we miraculously expect them to rehabilitate. The system is designed
:53:56. > :53:58.to mitigate risk. Prison governors, they are doing probably the most
:53:59. > :54:05.dangerous job ever at the moment because of the staffing numbers etc,
:54:06. > :54:09.they are there to contain, to contain a problem. Not to address
:54:10. > :54:14.the true cause. If we want a vision of the future, looking at building
:54:15. > :54:18.more prisons etc and locking people up through believing that they made
:54:19. > :54:24.this moral decision to commit a crime and not look at the mitigating
:54:25. > :54:29.circumstances, looked to America. One in 90 people in America are
:54:30. > :54:33.locked up. For longer, yeah, but their reconviction rates are higher
:54:34. > :54:38.than here. Looking at Norway, Denmark etc, they had a really smart
:54:39. > :54:40.approach to crime. I will let you respond in a moment, Samanthi has a
:54:41. > :54:43.special insight. I'm joined now by Leroy Skeet, who
:54:44. > :54:54.was convicted of a violent crime. What were you in prison for? GBH
:54:55. > :54:59.with intent. What was your sentence? Section two life sentence with a
:55:00. > :55:04.six-year terror, I served 11 years. Life did not mean life, should it? I
:55:05. > :55:08.think that is ridiculous. People should be given a second chance. We
:55:09. > :55:14.live in a Christian society and it says everyone should be given a
:55:15. > :55:23.chance. A second chance. What helps rehabilitate you? I realised I was
:55:24. > :55:25.being used as a political football, once I rehabilitate me, only you can
:55:26. > :55:29.rehabilitate yourself, nobody else can do it, you have to want it for
:55:30. > :55:34.yourself. You don't believe the prison system has any responsibility
:55:35. > :55:39.towards your rehabilitation? Yes, but with the cuts, what do you
:55:40. > :55:44.expect them to do? Simple question, probably no simple answer, does
:55:45. > :55:47.prison work? If you stick someone imprisoned the 24 hours a day and
:55:48. > :55:51.treat them like an animal and you expect them to come out and behave
:55:52. > :56:01.like a normal member of society, it is ridiculous. Treat somebody like
:56:02. > :56:04.an animal, they will behave like an animal. I was brought up in the care
:56:05. > :56:07.of the local authority from ten, beaten front-end, it made me more
:56:08. > :56:10.vicious and bitter towards society. In order to give compassion you had
:56:11. > :56:16.to receive it. Treat somebody like an animal, they will behave like
:56:17. > :56:20.one, it is that simple. Google thank you, Leroy. You treat somebody like
:56:21. > :56:25.an animal and they will come out like one, where is your compassion?
:56:26. > :56:32.I don't think any prison treats people like an animal. Locked up the
:56:33. > :56:35.23 hours a day? It is dangerous to say there is only a choice between
:56:36. > :56:40.rehabilitation and putting someone imprisoned. Often the longer
:56:41. > :56:46.sentences produce the lower reoffending rates, we need to look
:56:47. > :56:50.at complementary rehabilitation. If there is one priority for prison, is
:56:51. > :56:57.a punishment or rehabilitation? I would say protecting the public.
:56:58. > :57:01.Should they be punished or is it rehabilitation? It is punishment for
:57:02. > :57:05.the reason that they have often committed hundreds of offences a
:57:06. > :57:11.year. Protect the public for as long as you can. We hear about violence
:57:12. > :57:16.in prisons and the conditions in prison, are we creating more violent
:57:17. > :57:19.offenders inside? It is really dangerous to imply that people are
:57:20. > :57:23.going in a relatively innocent and coming at a much more violent.
:57:24. > :57:27.People get other punishments and they have much higher reoffending
:57:28. > :57:32.rates in many cases. Ten seconds, what would you like to see? More
:57:33. > :57:38.rehabilitation, and some kind of jointed system that is physically
:57:39. > :57:44.through the gate to help people. When somebody goes into prison there
:57:45. > :57:51.will be an inquiry immediately into the reasons they are there, by
:57:52. > :57:57.professions. And it never happens. I absolutely disagree with you, prison
:57:58. > :58:00.conditions at the moment are dire. We have the highest death and
:58:01. > :58:06.suicide rates in custody at records, an epidemic of spice use and legal
:58:07. > :58:11.high use, it is pretty poor at the moment. Thank you both.
:58:12. > :58:13.That's nearly all from us for this week.
:58:14. > :58:15.Many thanks to all our guests and you at home
:58:16. > :58:20.But why don't you join Samanthi for live chat online after the show?
:58:21. > :58:21.Yes, I'll be talking to Charles Michael Duke,
:58:22. > :58:24.who we heard from in our discussion on organ transplants and is waiting
:58:25. > :58:27.Log on to facebook.com/bbcsundaymorninglive
:58:28. > :58:32.In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole
:58:33. > :59:10.Sunday Morning Live team, goodbye.
:59:11. > :59:14.When I think of the world we inhabit, everyone will think,