:00:07. > :00:13.The battle between sheep farmers and the conservationists.
:00:14. > :00:19.Is it time to "rewild" our countryside?
:00:20. > :00:25.We've recreated a hay meadow, and it gives you this fantastic array of
:00:26. > :00:27.flowers. Catholic Melinda Gates pledges
:00:28. > :00:29.hundreds of millions of pounds to birth control in developing
:00:30. > :00:31.countries - and says she's optimistic the Pope might
:00:32. > :00:34.change his views on contraception. And we join the first amputee
:00:35. > :00:47.to take part in the final The last thing I want is anyone to
:00:48. > :00:50.come up to me and say, are you OK, mate? I want to keep up with the
:00:51. > :00:57.other guys, I want to win it! And Emma Barnett is here ready
:00:58. > :01:02.to let you have your say. You can contact us by
:01:03. > :01:07.Facebook and Twitter - don't forget to use the hashtag
:01:08. > :01:10.#bbcsml. Or text SML followed
:01:11. > :01:13.by your message to 60011. Texts are charged at your
:01:14. > :01:16.standard message rate. Or email us at
:01:17. > :01:20.sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk. However you choose to get in touch,
:01:21. > :01:26.please don't forget to include your name,
:01:27. > :01:28.so I can get you involved in our discussions -
:01:29. > :01:31.including one about whether we're getting too casual and
:01:32. > :01:41.dressing down too much. I've made an effort, but Sean, on
:01:42. > :01:46.the other hand, you've got no tie! But I have got a handkerchief!
:01:47. > :01:51.This week, the Lake District joined the likes of the Grand Canyon
:01:52. > :01:53.and the Great Barrier Reef as it was named
:01:54. > :01:56.The decision has been greeted by those fronting the bid
:01:57. > :02:01.But the news has also re-ignited a debate about what is the best way
:02:02. > :02:03.of preserving the Lakes, and areas like it,
:02:04. > :02:07.Samanthi Flanagan has been to Cumbria to find out more.
:02:08. > :02:15.From Wordsworth to Beatrix Potter, the breathtaking landscape has
:02:16. > :02:18.inspired generations of The Lake District is home to the biggest
:02:19. > :02:22.national park in England and England and Wales and it attracts more than
:02:23. > :02:27.18 million visitors each year, keen to get a taste of the great outdoors
:02:28. > :02:33.amidst its spectacular scenery. There is a rugged and wild beauty,
:02:34. > :02:36.but is it wild enough? Some conservationists say that if the
:02:37. > :02:44.land was allowed to revert to its natural state, it would be even more
:02:45. > :02:47.stunning. The sheep make a which a postcard sight, but not everybody
:02:48. > :02:52.agrees. One conservationist believes the grazing by them is damaging to
:02:53. > :02:59.the environment and prevents more diverse wildlife from thriving. This
:03:00. > :03:04.particular area had a very heavy grazing history, and that changes
:03:05. > :03:10.the vegetation. So, this is the thrush, one of the plants which
:03:11. > :03:14.sheep really won't eat. This kind of grass is another one which they
:03:15. > :03:21.won't eat. But when you have really high numbers of sheep, you tend to
:03:22. > :03:26.get down to that kind of vegetation, very structurally simple and very
:03:27. > :03:31.few species. William's family has farmed the land here for centuries.
:03:32. > :03:36.He believes people like him are a vital part of the ecosystem and
:03:37. > :03:40.economy. I've been farming in and around this area all my life, and
:03:41. > :03:48.the family has been here for many generations at least five. Our roots
:03:49. > :03:52.go well back. We have to manage the land in a way which allows us to get
:03:53. > :03:55.a return from it, but at the same time, we're trying not to damage the
:03:56. > :04:03.land, because it's not in our interests to do that. We look after
:04:04. > :04:09.it in every respect so that it can deliver a commercial return for
:04:10. > :04:13.Ross. William rejects claims that the sheep's feeding habits are
:04:14. > :04:20.causing problems. In some areas, we have reached the point where it is
:04:21. > :04:24.actually old and grazed. We are doing things on traditional lines,
:04:25. > :04:28.the way we've always done it. I can't really change it, we just have
:04:29. > :04:34.to do it the way we have always done it. David is overseeing the project
:04:35. > :04:41.which he believes could hold the key to the Lake District's future. The
:04:42. > :04:47.Cumbria Wildlife Trust has transformed an area of poor
:04:48. > :04:52.grassland, to this... We've recreated a hay meadow. This is done
:04:53. > :05:00.by taking green hay from a hay meadow not very far away, doing the
:05:01. > :05:05.soil, spreading the hay, letting the seeds fall out. And it gives you
:05:06. > :05:09.this fantastic array of flowers. And for people like William, this is a
:05:10. > :05:15.workplace which plays a vital part in supporting the Lake District's
:05:16. > :05:18.wider economy. It isn't just about flowers, it's about all of the stuff
:05:19. > :05:23.that goes around it, the, which is, the footpaths, the walls, the houses
:05:24. > :05:29.of, the very things which make it a very special place. What are the
:05:30. > :05:32.difficulties you find with farmers and conservationists working
:05:33. > :05:36.together? To some extent, we don't understand what the other ones want.
:05:37. > :05:43.And there isn't a great deal of trust between the two. You can move
:05:44. > :05:48.quite quickly beyond that mistrust, if you try. Let's work with what
:05:49. > :05:58.we've got, people enjoy it, let's try and make it work for everyone.
:05:59. > :06:05.Let's see what our panel think, should we stick to farming which has
:06:06. > :06:21.been done for generations, or should we allow the countryside to develop.
:06:22. > :06:27.First of all, Bill Oddie, when they say the countryside is under threat,
:06:28. > :06:30.are they just scaremongering? " I should say that there isn't such a
:06:31. > :06:34.thing as a battle. That phrase was used to. And I thought, a lot of the
:06:35. > :06:39.commentary on that, although it was a lovely film, did speak in
:06:40. > :06:43.generalisations, which doesn't help. When you say at all between
:06:44. > :06:47.conservationists and farmers, there needn't be. Some farmers, some
:06:48. > :06:51.conservationists, work together really well, not just in the Lake
:06:52. > :06:54.District but all over the place. What about the claims from some
:06:55. > :07:00.conservationists that farmers are overworking the land, are there some
:07:01. > :07:04.who do that? There probably are, as it happens, I don't know the Lake
:07:05. > :07:08.District that well. Somebody can correct me, but I don't think of it
:07:09. > :07:12.as very, very heavily farmed, as an area. Obviously, it is very hilly
:07:13. > :07:21.and so forth. I imagine it is mainly sheep, and most of the, how can we
:07:22. > :07:25.put it, degrading of farmland which I've seen, you have to be my age to
:07:26. > :07:30.have seen it when it was good, but most of the degrading has actually
:07:31. > :07:36.been crop growing, rather than grazing. And there are many regimes
:07:37. > :07:43.around nature reserves which involve sheep, for example, and grazing,
:07:44. > :07:46.cows, so on and so forth. Is that the picture that you see when you go
:07:47. > :07:51.to the Lake District and other areas? Not entirely. I have a great
:07:52. > :07:55.deal of affection for the Lake District, I have known the landscape
:07:56. > :07:59.since I was a small boy, and there is a great deal of value in the
:08:00. > :08:02.cultural landscape. It has been worked for hundreds of years by
:08:03. > :08:06.human hands, and that is a really valuable thing to have. But I don't
:08:07. > :08:11.think we should pretend that ecological, it's in a fantastic
:08:12. > :08:14.condition. 75% of wildlife sites in the Lake District are in
:08:15. > :08:19.unfavourable condition, a lot of them are recovering, which is good.
:08:20. > :08:22.But I don't necessarily recognised this age of a harmonious
:08:23. > :08:25.environment. In Britain as a whole, we are one of the most naturally
:08:26. > :08:30.depleted countries in the world. I think we are ranked 189 in the world
:08:31. > :08:37.in terms of the state of our ecosystem and biodiversity. And that
:08:38. > :08:44.is reflected in landscapes like the lake strict, sadly. That is a pretty
:08:45. > :08:49.alarming picture, you are a shepherdess, it is your fault, your
:08:50. > :08:53.sheep, and other farmers! We have looked after the land as far back as
:08:54. > :08:59.I can remember. Like the film said, we maintain it with our flocks. It's
:09:00. > :09:02.traditional, like Bill said, we work with the conservation side of
:09:03. > :09:09.things, we have our natural hay meadows, we have our Wood set-aside,
:09:10. > :09:13.we don't over grazed. There might be a small amount of overgrazing, in
:09:14. > :09:18.fact, some places are under grazed at the moment. For me, it is not
:09:19. > :09:23.about that. I think those traditions have gone back, the land is good, it
:09:24. > :09:27.is how we always remember it. The farmers, particularly in the hill
:09:28. > :09:31.farming world, we really look after our land, because that land feeds
:09:32. > :09:35.us, it's our living, and that's where we will be for ever, we will
:09:36. > :09:39.continue this. But in the film we saw one field which wasn't grazed,
:09:40. > :09:44.and one which was, and it was very different, for wildlife? It's quite
:09:45. > :09:51.tiny scenario Myhill farm, I've got a very far small hill farm and I
:09:52. > :09:56.set-aside an allotment, a small area of land, in a schema for ground
:09:57. > :10:00.nesting birds, so we took the cattle and the sheep off and allowed it to
:10:01. > :10:04.go wild. It was quite wonderful. But then it became too wild and the
:10:05. > :10:11.ground nesting birds stopped ground nesting. You do want this
:10:12. > :10:13.old-fashioned farming system, working alongside conservation. And
:10:14. > :10:20.if you do that and take it back to how we found it, as had Stosur, many
:10:21. > :10:25.years ago, like my grandparents did, we are not going far wrong. But is
:10:26. > :10:27.it asking farmers to much to set-aside land to do that,
:10:28. > :10:36.particularly when it becomes economically tight? The economy is
:10:37. > :10:40.obviously vital for the farmers. The vitality and the economic returns
:10:41. > :10:43.from the land obviously come from ever intensifying farming systems,
:10:44. > :10:51.and has to be a balance whereby sustainable farming, sustainable
:10:52. > :10:55.economically, as well as ecological, that is the balance that we have to
:10:56. > :11:00.try and find. And there are definitely tensions between the two.
:11:01. > :11:03.It is wonderful that UNESCO has given the Lake District that
:11:04. > :11:08.international, global brand of being right up there as the place to go,
:11:09. > :11:16.and it is an opportunity for businesses and farmers and
:11:17. > :11:20.conservationists within Lakes to celebrate that brand and raise their
:11:21. > :11:25.game, so that it is protected. 1.I really want to make is that that
:11:26. > :11:29.living cultural heritage landscape was granted to the trust, and it
:11:30. > :11:35.took UNESCO and the Lake District national park 20 years to actually
:11:36. > :11:42.find the formula, the prescription by which a living cultural heritage
:11:43. > :11:44.landscape... And that has been delivered and borne out by our
:11:45. > :11:49.farming community. So, working together. And you have been talking
:11:50. > :11:54.-- you are going to be talking to one of the big players?
:11:55. > :12:02.You are one of the country's biggest landowners - are you doing enough to
:12:03. > :12:07.work with farmers? I think all of us would agree, we can always do more.
:12:08. > :12:10.That would be farmers and conservation organisations. But
:12:11. > :12:13.we've always had partnership with our farmers as the bedrock of any of
:12:14. > :12:20.the progress we've made in the landscapes that we are lucky enough
:12:21. > :12:24.to look after. I think just in recent times, the whole debate that
:12:25. > :12:28.we've just been listening to, about how we deliver more for farming, and
:12:29. > :12:34.more for nature, has helped us come together and have even more
:12:35. > :12:41.constructive conversations about how we think our farmers to that kind of
:12:42. > :12:44.mission, to get back the natural health of our wider landscapes.
:12:45. > :12:48.Perhaps you are working too closely with farmers, then, in the sense
:12:49. > :12:52.you're not doing enough to rewild the landscape and getting the
:12:53. > :12:57.farmers to make those changes? I don't think you can ever work too
:12:58. > :13:02.closely with farmers. They are crucial, we will always have a
:13:03. > :13:06.farmed landscape, over 70% of our countryside is farmed and it will
:13:07. > :13:09.continue to be so. What we need to do is to continue to work together
:13:10. > :13:13.to get the balance right. We have said that already today in the
:13:14. > :13:17.discussion. We all agree that we need to do something to put back the
:13:18. > :13:21.natural health of our land, the soil, the water, and the
:13:22. > :13:24.biodiversity of the habitat. It is an absolute truism that farming
:13:25. > :13:28.depends utterly on the health of the natural environment. There is no
:13:29. > :13:32.farming industry without it, so it seems to me to be a common agenda.
:13:33. > :13:37.But where are you up to on that agenda, how would you describe the
:13:38. > :13:42.balance at the moment? I think we have definitely got to a tipping
:13:43. > :13:46.point, where over-60s percent of our native species and habitats are in
:13:47. > :13:49.decline, we know that. It's not a good picture, so we have to do more
:13:50. > :13:57.to get the balance back. At the same time, we've got real threats coming
:13:58. > :14:00.towards farming from Brexit, where Common Agricultural Policy, the
:14:01. > :14:04.bedrock of much of the finance which supports the farming industry, is
:14:05. > :14:09.definitely at risk. Although that sounds threatening, I think it is an
:14:10. > :14:12.opportunity to redraw exactly how we create a system that supports
:14:13. > :14:16.farmers to have good livelihoods, to stay on the land so that we can
:14:17. > :14:20.enjoy the fantastic cultural things that we see in the hills, in the
:14:21. > :14:26.lowlands and across our mixed farming areas, and at the same time
:14:27. > :14:31.put health back into nature. Patrick Begg, Rural Enterprise Director for
:14:32. > :14:40.the National Trust, thank you very much. We have been talking about
:14:41. > :14:42.rewilding reports from the Royal Society this weekend, calling for
:14:43. > :14:48.the reintroduction of carnivores into areas, and we're talking about
:14:49. > :14:52.great Wolves, brown bears... Even if you have not set foot in the
:14:53. > :14:58.countryside, it is a bit of an issue, isn't it? I think this is a
:14:59. > :15:04.really important dimension which has been reintroduced by this whole
:15:05. > :15:06.rewilding debate. It is not just about the headline grabbing
:15:07. > :15:10.carnivores. The key thing which it refers to is the presence of what I
:15:11. > :15:15.would call his tone species. This is the difference between rewilding and
:15:16. > :15:21.what you would call re-naturalisation. There are
:15:22. > :15:24.keystone species which drive ecological processes and the
:15:25. > :15:31.benefits they have cascade through the ecosystem. Wolves and links are
:15:32. > :15:35.examples of that, but it is also things like beavers, pine Martin,
:15:36. > :15:38.Wilde bought etc. I'm not saying that we should go into a countryside
:15:39. > :15:43.full of Wolves and just unleash them. But potentially, it is an
:15:44. > :15:49.element of the conservation toolkit in helping to restore the landscape.
:15:50. > :15:51.We're already seeing examples of it. Beavers have successfully been
:15:52. > :15:59.reintroduced into area of Scotland, pine Martin, etc.
:16:00. > :16:11.When we talk about rewilding, how does that make you feel? Real good!
:16:12. > :16:22.I do think it is a silly phrase. The concept behind it? I don't think,
:16:23. > :16:27.basically in terms of plants which will attract insects and so on,
:16:28. > :16:37.there is usually a planned and eight design behind planting, as you know.
:16:38. > :16:43.But I must admit that you have to look at each animal and each
:16:44. > :16:55.situation separately. Walls, I can't see that going without a problem. --
:16:56. > :17:03.walls. We have sheep farmer here. How comfortable would you feel with
:17:04. > :17:09.wolves? Really uncomfortable. The thought of going out onto the fells
:17:10. > :17:14.and having wolves. Things like beavers I understand, but not
:17:15. > :17:22.predators. So beavers would be fine? Beavers are already there. Wolves,
:17:23. > :17:25.links and there's in the Lake District mountains, they are
:17:26. > :17:30.naturally going to want to eat, and what would they eat? It would be
:17:31. > :17:43.sheep or lambs. It would cause an uproar among the community and fell
:17:44. > :17:47.walkers, and it would cause chaos. Rewilding is causing some debate,
:17:48. > :17:51.because some are saying it means different things to different
:17:52. > :17:57.people. I would support planting trees to help with water run-off,
:17:58. > :18:00.but Peter says, do not bring back dangerous animals. The great beauty
:18:01. > :18:05.of this country is the general careless way we can roam through it.
:18:06. > :18:09.John says, it is a living environment and farming has made it
:18:10. > :18:15.what it is. It's not for outsiders to say how it should be. And Rose
:18:16. > :18:26.says, just leave it alone. When outsiders try to improve on nature,
:18:27. > :18:29.it messes it up. Another says, sheep farming is part of the landscape in
:18:30. > :18:33.the Lake District, and to mess around with it is changing nature,
:18:34. > :18:41.not helping it. Done, how do we move forward with this? We have to do
:18:42. > :18:44.deep polarise the rhetoric of the farmers and conservationists and
:18:45. > :18:51.find a middle ground. I would like to say that the middle ground is
:18:52. > :18:54.almost there. The damage done through European heritage payments
:18:55. > :19:01.that we lived with through the 70s and 80s that did actually cause
:19:02. > :19:06.overgrazing and trashing the landscapes, that has been reversed
:19:07. > :19:10.by great environmental schemes such as the environment in sensitive
:19:11. > :19:16.areas and HLS schemes. That has reversed overgrazing, and with the
:19:17. > :19:23.statistics I saw we were back at the sheep numbers we had pre-those HLS
:19:24. > :19:26.payments. We are back there, so we can give the landscape is the
:19:27. > :19:32.opportunity to heal and celebrate the UNESCO site. I agree that there
:19:33. > :19:38.have been great improvements in recent times, and I think there is a
:19:39. > :19:46.danger of this becoming pure polemic. What this debate about
:19:47. > :19:49.rewilding has introduced is an important debate we should be
:19:50. > :19:55.having, but I absolutely agree that there is common ground. There has
:19:56. > :19:58.been movement. Farmers are not entirely recalcitrant and
:19:59. > :20:02.reactionary. There are farmers who are prepared to work to rough up the
:20:03. > :20:06.natural environment and provide more space for the nature to breathe.
:20:07. > :20:09.That is the basis for moving forward. There is common ground.
:20:10. > :20:13.It's an interesting debate. Thank you very much.
:20:14. > :20:15.Catwalk contests like Miss World and Mr World are often associated
:20:16. > :20:18.with the body beautiful - but one man is on a mission
:20:19. > :20:21.to change our perception of what that means.
:20:22. > :20:23.Jack Eyres lost his leg at the age of 16.
:20:24. > :20:26.On Friday night, he made history when he became the first amputee
:20:27. > :20:29.to compete in the final of Mr England, a pathway
:20:30. > :20:32.Wendy Robbins went to Birmingham to see if Jack would scoop
:20:33. > :20:44.the prize, and to find out how he's overcome the barriers he's faced.
:20:45. > :20:53.This is Jack Eyres, personal trainer, model and all-round hunk.
:20:54. > :20:56.He also has only one leg. The other was amputated when he was 16. What
:20:57. > :21:03.was the condition you had when you were born? It was a deficiency in
:21:04. > :21:06.the lake that meant it didn't develop properly, the muscle
:21:07. > :21:12.structure, the bone structure and the joints didn't develop. What did
:21:13. > :21:17.that mean as a child? I was different to other people. It
:21:18. > :21:23.knocked my confidence. I was different from others. How does that
:21:24. > :21:27.affect you? You get singled out. When that happens to a young,
:21:28. > :21:32.vulnerable child, it's difficult. I didn't know who I was. I didn't know
:21:33. > :21:36.how to act or what to do or what the future was going to be. Everything
:21:37. > :21:42.was unknown. Teachers would say, what you want to do when you grow
:21:43. > :21:54.up? And I was like, I've no idea. When I and then came a defining
:21:55. > :22:00.moment. When I was 16, I went to have my leg amputated. They offered
:22:01. > :22:04.me lots of treatment. I was introduced to a guy who had had his
:22:05. > :22:10.leg amputated, and I thought, maybe this is a good option. With that new
:22:11. > :22:17.leg came new confidence. Jack became a fitness trainer and set his sights
:22:18. > :22:22.even higher. 2005, I was part of the Paralympic opening ceremony, in
:22:23. > :22:28.front of 80,000 people and the Queen, flying 30 foot in the air on
:22:29. > :22:32.harnesses. It was all about breaking barriers and saying that you don't
:22:33. > :22:41.have to be vulnerable and weak. And I got a taste for the limelight. And
:22:42. > :22:52.I was like, what next. What came next was water-skiing, modelling,
:22:53. > :23:02.and other work. And even an advert. It was an advert, it was a take on
:23:03. > :23:08.the old Levi's advert, where you go into a launderette and take your
:23:09. > :23:12.clothes off. Now Jack is in the Mr England contest, the first amputee
:23:13. > :23:17.to make the finals. When we did the fitness thing today, so many
:23:18. > :23:21.amputees would have shied away from that. It's the first time I had done
:23:22. > :23:26.those exercises, especially in a group. The last thing I want is
:23:27. > :23:33.people to come up to me and say, are you OK, mate? I want to keep up with
:23:34. > :23:38.the other guys and I want to win. To win Mr England, as well as physical
:23:39. > :23:44.fitness, contestants had to compete in tests that include general
:23:45. > :23:50.knowledge, charity work, talents, and basically use confidence. You
:23:51. > :23:57.can guess who I am rooting for. If Jack wins, what an inspiration. Jack
:23:58. > :24:02.has obviously caught the judges' attention, because he wins an early
:24:03. > :24:08.award for popularity. But the big prize is still up for grabs.
:24:09. > :24:13.Everyone needs a role model, and I believe that Mr England does that.
:24:14. > :24:19.I'm so glad I won Mr popularity, because it proves to me APPLAUSE It
:24:20. > :24:25.proves to me that I'm getting support to do my thing, so thank you
:24:26. > :24:30.so much. Congratulations. It's getting closer
:24:31. > :24:38.to the final result. Jack is feeling the tension. I'm feeling pretty
:24:39. > :24:43.nervous. I'm pretty tired. If you win tonight, what does that mean for
:24:44. > :24:47.you? It means a lot to me. It's such an impressive platform to get my
:24:48. > :24:52.message out there, and tried to become a role model. It would mean
:24:53. > :24:56.an awful lot to me, but I know there's a lot of strong competitors
:24:57. > :25:08.here with some stories as well. We will see what happens. The big
:25:09. > :25:10.moment is here. Mr England 2017... He will represent England at Mr
:25:11. > :25:29.World. It goes to... Jack Eyres! Jack Eyres, you are Mr
:25:30. > :25:36.England 2017. Jack is overwhelmed, and so am I. What a result! What was
:25:37. > :25:40.that moment like when it was announced? Incredible. It took me a
:25:41. > :25:45.little while to understand what he said. And then when you realised it
:25:46. > :25:52.was you? My heart went up ten levels! Oh, man. Relief as well. So
:25:53. > :25:59.much relief. I really, really wanted it. I'm really going to use it. This
:26:00. > :26:06.isn't it now. I'm going to use this platform is so wisely. What does it
:26:07. > :26:07.mean for disabled people? The first amputee Mr England, the first
:26:08. > :26:10.amputee to be going for Mr World. Congratulations to Jack -
:26:11. > :26:12.he's a real inspiration! Still to come on Sunday
:26:13. > :26:23.Morning Live.... What singer Macy Gray decided to buy
:26:24. > :26:39.after she hit the big time. Ideas like really insane things to
:26:40. > :26:43.my house. I had a bronze statue of myself around the house. Yes, and
:26:44. > :26:45.naked statue of yourself around the house! Yellow yes. That was
:26:46. > :26:48.expensive. This week, the Bill
:26:49. > :26:50.and Melinda Gates Foundation, set up by the multi-billionaire
:26:51. > :26:53.and his wife, announced several hundred million pounds' worth
:26:54. > :26:55.of funding for family planning programmes in some of
:26:56. > :26:57.the world's poorest countries. The plan, supported
:26:58. > :26:59.by the British Government, is to reduce unwanted pregnancies
:27:00. > :27:01.and help prevent While the cause may not seem
:27:02. > :27:06.unusual, what is surprising is that Melinda Gates is a Catholic -
:27:07. > :27:08.a church which has long been against the use
:27:09. > :27:11.of any contraception. Melinda says she's "optimistic"
:27:12. > :27:26.the Pope will change his views. We have a shared mission around
:27:27. > :27:30.social justice and anti-poverty, and I think that this Pope sees that if
:27:31. > :27:34.we are going to lift people out of poverty, you have to do the right
:27:35. > :27:36.thing for women. We have agreed at this point to disagree.
:27:37. > :27:38.The Pope shows no sign of fulfilling Melinda Gates' hopes.
:27:39. > :27:48.Should the Catholic Church change its stance on contraception?
:27:49. > :27:51.Obianuju Ekeocha, a Catholic campaigner for the promotion
:27:52. > :27:54.Danielle Spencer, who is an international aid worker.
:27:55. > :27:55.Clare Short, Catholic blogger and writer.
:27:56. > :28:01.And Amy Lavelle, a journalist and feminist.
:28:02. > :28:09.The money being made available will help people control the size of
:28:10. > :28:13.their families. Is that a good step in terms of poverty? I'm sure
:28:14. > :28:18.Melinda Gates means well, but there is an arrogance in what I see is
:28:19. > :28:23.question is not being asked in all this talk about contraception and
:28:24. > :28:27.helping women to space their children is what exactly, when
:28:28. > :28:33.speaking of Africa, what exactly do women want? In most African
:28:34. > :28:39.countries you get defined, as research shows, that African women's
:28:40. > :28:45.desired number of children is actually quite high. So in cultures
:28:46. > :28:50.where people value children or value big families, what are you saying to
:28:51. > :28:54.the women if you continue to push their governments towards the
:28:55. > :29:00.so-called family planning project? This might be indeed an insidious
:29:01. > :29:05.way of moving the agenda of population control. So family
:29:06. > :29:10.planning projects in developing countries are bad? I'm not saying
:29:11. > :29:15.that. Are they western countries forcing their values? Exactly. They
:29:16. > :29:19.are not bad in themselves, but there is a real problem with a multi
:29:20. > :29:25.billionaire from a western country coming in to tell African countries
:29:26. > :29:29.what to do or how to control their population is. Danielle, what do you
:29:30. > :29:35.think? It's an interesting perspective, but action aid is
:29:36. > :29:40.different from the traditional model of NGO work. We work with rights
:29:41. > :29:44.organisations, and we deliver what they ask us to deliver. They are
:29:45. > :29:48.asking us to deliver family planning. In our most recent report
:29:49. > :29:58.we spoke with the women called Evelyn. She risked domestic violence
:29:59. > :30:03.and abuse from her husband in order to take contraception in secret. In
:30:04. > :30:08.the health system in Liberia, where she is from, it was apparent she had
:30:09. > :30:12.to go with her husband in order to receive contraception, and there was
:30:13. > :30:18.a disagreement within that family. Her husband was violent. One in
:30:19. > :30:25.three women experienced sexual or physical violence most likely at the
:30:26. > :30:28.hands of a partner. Reproductive coercion is a real issue. We need to
:30:29. > :30:35.be able to not leave those women behind. We talk about birth control.
:30:36. > :30:39.What about disease? Action aid is really a women's rights
:30:40. > :30:44.organisation, so it is really about choice. If women have the choice,
:30:45. > :30:49.then obviously the spread of disease would go down, but fundamentally, we
:30:50. > :30:53.are not talking about population control or economics, we are talking
:30:54. > :30:59.about women's rights to choose whether to have a child, and that is
:31:00. > :31:00.very difficult for a huge number of women who are in violent
:31:01. > :31:10.relationships. Isn't it about time the Pope changed
:31:11. > :31:14.the Catholic stance on contraception? It is interesting,
:31:15. > :31:18.because whenever we get into this debate, you have got the artificial
:31:19. > :31:22.contraception side saying, this is a women's issue. And two you know
:31:23. > :31:27.what, it's not. The way the Catholic Church approaches it is that this is
:31:28. > :31:33.a couples issue. And this is really important. Artifice or
:31:34. > :31:36.contraception, they say that all of the responsibility is on the woman's
:31:37. > :31:41.shoulders. -- artificial contraception. The Catholic Church
:31:42. > :31:44.says it should be equal responsibility between the husband
:31:45. > :31:48.on the wife. What about when you don't have an equal relationship,
:31:49. > :31:52.where it is an abusive relationship? This is really difficult. Obviously,
:31:53. > :31:57.relationships like that are bad and the woman needs to be put into a
:31:58. > :32:00.safe place. But by giving her contraception, all you are doing is
:32:01. > :32:04.allowing her to remain in that abusive situation. It does not solve
:32:05. > :32:10.the problem. So, you need to be tackling the problem. Family
:32:11. > :32:15.planning, with the Catholic Church, what it teaches is not only about
:32:16. > :32:20.empowering women to understand their physiology and their fertility and
:32:21. > :32:23.how their body Works, but also to educate their husbands as to how the
:32:24. > :32:28.woman's Bodyworks. It is built on the relationship, and the effect it
:32:29. > :32:31.has on the relationship is equally as important. It is coming in with
:32:32. > :32:37.all of these really good, positive things. If it is a fundamental, core
:32:38. > :32:42.value of the Catholic Church, it is asking a bit too much to get it
:32:43. > :32:46.changed? I don't think so, the Pope has been progressive on so many
:32:47. > :32:55.issues, and even on contraception, he has said it is not an absolute
:32:56. > :33:00.sin. He did not say that, he absolutely did not say that. I don't
:33:01. > :33:04.think he did James Wright I saw in a comment he made to reporters, he
:33:05. > :33:10.said it is not an absolute... But I think it is a woman's issue, because
:33:11. > :33:14.yes, it is part of the couple's relationship to be able to decide
:33:15. > :33:18.when and if they get pregnant, but ultimately it is the woman who goes
:33:19. > :33:24.through, it should be the woman who has a bit more control over it. I
:33:25. > :33:27.think it is a woman's choice, especially when you're looking at
:33:28. > :33:32.violence. Actually, the church itself has a huge role to play in
:33:33. > :33:35.talking about women's rights. I've worked with religious leaders from
:33:36. > :33:42.multiple faiths, talking about women's rights and empowering women.
:33:43. > :33:45.In one example, we worked with Evelyn, as an example, and we did
:33:46. > :33:51.actually work with her husband as well. They have negotiated a smaller
:33:52. > :33:55.family as a result. He's on board with the contraception. When we met
:33:56. > :33:59.them in 2012, she wasn't allowed out of the house. Now, he's encouraging
:34:00. > :34:05.her to go out of the house and talk to other women and other men about
:34:06. > :34:07.contraception. We have been talking about religious leaders, and
:34:08. > :34:14.catholic priests are on the front line on this subject.
:34:15. > :34:29.I spoke to Father Paddy McCafferty. What do you say about those this
:34:30. > :34:34.issue? To be honest, it does not come up very often at all. In fact,
:34:35. > :34:39.very rarely. I've been a priest for 28 years and I can nearly count on
:34:40. > :34:46.one hand the number of occasions this has arisen as an issue, as any
:34:47. > :34:49.type of issue at all. I think that is quite interesting just some
:34:50. > :34:53.people might be surprised to learn that. Is what you're saying that
:34:54. > :34:57.there is a kind of turning of a blind eye to this issue, that you
:34:58. > :35:01.let members of your congregation do what they feel they can, and you
:35:02. > :35:06.just don't really talk about it? No. I don't think that's the issue at
:35:07. > :35:13.all. We maintain the teaching. The teaching is a difficult one, and in
:35:14. > :35:20.the modern age, it is a very unpopular one, obviously. And it's a
:35:21. > :35:24.difficult one to explain. But because a thing is difficult, it
:35:25. > :35:28.doesn't mean that we abolish it all return a blind eye to it. The
:35:29. > :35:35.teaching is what it is, and even though it's challenging, even though
:35:36. > :35:40.it demands from people a certain discipline and commitment, I do
:35:41. > :35:45.believe that it is a very valuable teaching, I believe it is a
:35:46. > :35:49.prophetic teaching. Melinda Gates, the philanthropist who has been in
:35:50. > :35:53.the UK this week for a family planning summit, she herself is a
:35:54. > :35:57.catholic, she is hopeful that the Pope will change the Catholic
:35:58. > :36:01.Church's position on contraception - what do you think? No, I don't
:36:02. > :36:06.believe we should change the teaching simply because it's
:36:07. > :36:13.difficult. Obviously, the teaching and the pastoral practice of the
:36:14. > :36:17.Church essentially is informed by compassion for the person, the
:36:18. > :36:22.struggle of people with difficulties. That all being said,
:36:23. > :36:33.the teaching itself is valuable. The teaching I believe is prophetic in
:36:34. > :36:35.modern times. Where there is a very promiscuous attitude towards human
:36:36. > :36:44.sexuality in general, and in particular the whole contraceptive
:36:45. > :36:48.mentality and ideology. I think that the church's teaching is still very
:36:49. > :36:54.valuable and needs to be maintained. Father Paddy McCafferty, thank you
:36:55. > :36:59.so much. Father Paddy McCafferty saying that the church's teaching is
:37:00. > :37:04.valid and needs to be maintained - that's fair enough, isn't it? I
:37:05. > :37:10.think it is a modern world and you need to work with the issues we
:37:11. > :37:13.facing. There are a lot of women, we are not talking about promiscuity,
:37:14. > :37:16.we're talking about sex within a marriage, I personally know women
:37:17. > :37:19.who have had a number of children who have been told they can't have
:37:20. > :37:24.any more without risking their lives. I think you need to be able
:37:25. > :37:29.to address people like that and say, you have a choice, you need to be
:37:30. > :37:32.able to protect yourself and your unborn children as well. Were
:37:33. > :37:38.talking about something from 1968, surely that's out of date? No,
:37:39. > :37:43.actually, Sean, you are basing this on the Western view to human
:37:44. > :37:50.sexuality and to marriage or the attitude towards sex. There is a
:37:51. > :37:53.problem where the Western world, or people within the Catholic Church in
:37:54. > :37:59.the Western world, continue to try to push the agenda, or their
:38:00. > :38:02.viewpoint on a church which is supposed to be universal, which
:38:03. > :38:10.actually, since 1980, Africa has had the most tremendous growth... And a
:38:11. > :38:13.huge amount of poverty. But also, there is a reduction of poverty.
:38:14. > :38:20.There has been a reduction of poverty, in percentage terms of.
:38:21. > :38:26.There are parts of Africa that people don't... Parts of Africa. The
:38:27. > :38:32.problem is that Africa, what we continue to see from news stations,
:38:33. > :38:37.Western media, will be the parts of Africa that seemed to be very weak.
:38:38. > :38:42.Nobody is talking about the way the Africans see the family, how we
:38:43. > :38:47.understand marriage and things like that. But there is a problem when
:38:48. > :38:50.people from the Western world continue to push their worldview on
:38:51. > :38:57.a church which is supposed to be universal. It is a problem. And the
:38:58. > :39:00.church in Africa is a vital, vibrant church, if people didn't like the
:39:01. > :39:08.teachings, then the church would not have been growing as it is. Why
:39:09. > :39:12.would Melinda Gates, a woman who is Western, just because she's wealthy,
:39:13. > :39:17.try to put her worldview on a church which is supposed to be universal.
:39:18. > :39:24.Money people would say that is modern-day colonialism. It is. This
:39:25. > :39:28.one says, the church should not influence government policy on
:39:29. > :39:31.contraception or anything else. This one says, the Catholic Church should
:39:32. > :39:36.be delivering the best teaching to us. It overlooks the role of sex as
:39:37. > :39:39.something which cements relationships together. The
:39:40. > :39:43.prohibition of condom is makes no sense. This one says, the church is
:39:44. > :39:47.well aware that people are using contraception, and I suspect they
:39:48. > :39:50.also understand. This one says, go and look around the world at one of
:39:51. > :39:54.those poor children dying, one after the other, from starvation. The
:39:55. > :39:57.Catholic Church preaches no contraception, why don't you sell
:39:58. > :40:01.your many priceless treasures and feed them? And this one - the
:40:02. > :40:04.teaching will not change, it is time for those who do not want to be
:40:05. > :40:14.catholic to just leave the faith. Strong stuff! Danielle, let's ring
:40:15. > :40:18.this back to Melinda Gates. She says she can agree to disagree with the
:40:19. > :40:22.Pope, but imagine the Pope was able to in the Catholic Church, what
:40:23. > :40:25.would that mean? It would mean an awful lot to many women in the
:40:26. > :40:29.church and outside of the Catholic Church as well. What difference
:40:30. > :40:34.would it make? It would mean that they would have the right to choose.
:40:35. > :40:40.But bringing it back to what's being discussed today, I think also we
:40:41. > :40:43.need to bear in mind that there are 700 million women and girls alive
:40:44. > :40:50.today who married as a child. It is not just about violence or other
:40:51. > :40:54.issues, but children don't have a pelvis which is formed and yet
:40:55. > :41:04.they're marrying, having children and dying. We should fight child
:41:05. > :41:12.marriage, then. But we can't do it just like that. In order to prevent
:41:13. > :41:19.children dying, then... That's a Band-Aid! I will give the last one
:41:20. > :41:24.to Clare... One really important point which nobody has discussed yet
:41:25. > :41:26.is that nobody really understands, nobody here, you clearly don't,
:41:27. > :41:32.you're not a catholic, I don't blame you for that. Melinda Gates says
:41:33. > :41:35.she's a catholic, I don't believe she's a practising. Nobody has
:41:36. > :41:39.explained what the Catholic Church teaching actually is on sex and
:41:40. > :41:42.marriage. There is so much prejudice that we have to put up with as
:41:43. > :41:47.Catholics, because people do not take the time to learn what the
:41:48. > :41:50.proper teaching is and see how it empowers the woman, see how it
:41:51. > :41:57.empowers the marriage and enhances the marriage, and it is a good and
:41:58. > :42:01.beautiful teaching. I've lived the contraception lifestyle, I lived it
:42:02. > :42:06.for many years. I have lived the NFP lifestyle, and I can tell you that
:42:07. > :42:08.there is no comparison. We will end it on that, thank you to all of you
:42:09. > :42:15.on the panel! American jazz and soul singer
:42:16. > :42:18.Macy Gray hit the big time after releasing her hit
:42:19. > :42:20.single I Try in 1999. Instead of being the making of her,
:42:21. > :42:23.the resulting fame almost destroyed her,
:42:24. > :42:25.as she turned to drugs Now back on tour in Europe
:42:26. > :42:28.and recording new material, Macy talked to Nihal Arthanayake
:42:29. > :42:31.about her journey to the top and # And I may seem all right
:42:32. > :42:57.and smile when you leave I'm intrigued to know about Ohio,
:42:58. > :43:01.you spent your formative years. It is the kind of place where your dad
:43:02. > :43:06.has two jobs, everybody has a bunch of kids and... It is like an
:43:07. > :43:12.all-American city. Did you grow up in largely an African-American
:43:13. > :43:15.environment? Was it mixed? It was very separated, not the point of
:43:16. > :43:20.people hating each other, it was just very like a... Does that mean
:43:21. > :43:30.you were quite shielded from any racism when you were growing up?
:43:31. > :43:35.There was a lot of incidents, the way people treat you or the way they
:43:36. > :43:39.look at you all the way they shake your hand. You don't have to get
:43:40. > :43:47.caught up in it, it's just a there. For yourself, your voice,
:43:48. > :43:51.everything, feeling different, it became in your music career a major
:43:52. > :43:57.bonus, but in life growing up, it must have been quite difficult? It
:43:58. > :44:03.was awful. I was always really awkward and never quite comfortable
:44:04. > :44:07.with myself. I'm still a little bit. Just to be completely OK with who
:44:08. > :44:12.you are, that must be a great state, because I can't imagine what that's
:44:13. > :44:18.like. Without your vulnerabilities, you would never have been able to
:44:19. > :44:23.make the music? There is always a thing, if you want to be successful,
:44:24. > :44:26.I think you have to have something lacking, because you're looking for
:44:27. > :44:32.something to fill it up. Maybe it will fill it up but it probably
:44:33. > :44:33.won't. But you're definitely trying to prove something and you go after
:44:34. > :44:40.the big-time. # I play it off, but
:44:41. > :44:52.I'm dreaming of you What was it like when you realised
:44:53. > :45:00.you were in the eye of this storm, with a millions of sales?
:45:01. > :45:08.# Though I try to hide it, it's clear
:45:09. > :45:13.Well, it gives you a lot more confidence because you have people
:45:14. > :45:16.coming to get your picture and your autograph. That builds you up, I
:45:17. > :45:32.don't care what anybody says, that's nice. But when did you first
:45:33. > :45:37.realise, I've got money? If you can spend it and it keeps coming, it's
:45:38. > :45:43.really nice. You recommended! I recommend it highly! If only! What
:45:44. > :45:47.is the most extravagant thing you did, that do look back on and think,
:45:48. > :45:56.what were you thinking? I just did really stupid stuff. I
:45:57. > :46:05.did really insane things to my house. I had a bronze statue of
:46:06. > :46:10.myself at my house. A naked statue. Yes. Macy, it's well documented that
:46:11. > :46:16.you had quite a party lifestyle, involving drink and drugs. How did
:46:17. > :46:21.you get away from that? Vanity. I looked at myself in the mirror one
:46:22. > :46:28.day and I looked horrible. And I quit. Is it that straightforward?
:46:29. > :46:34.Yes. I was still in my early 30s and I had bags under my eyes, and I was
:46:35. > :46:38.waking up with nosebleeds, and I was really, really skinny. The thing
:46:39. > :46:44.that people don't realise about, when you are taking substances, is
:46:45. > :46:55.you feel awful. You might be partying, but you don't feel good.
:46:56. > :47:02.# We had such a good time # I thought you'd call me... There
:47:03. > :47:05.is so much conversation these days about mental health issues. You've
:47:06. > :47:11.been through those situations yourself. What helps you? I have
:47:12. > :47:16.kids. They do get you out of yourself. It's something you just
:47:17. > :47:21.get through. There's no like formula or road map. You just get through
:47:22. > :47:29.it. You just wait it out. Is safe to any part of that road map? Yes. I've
:47:30. > :47:32.always had a really great relationship with God. My mother
:47:33. > :47:39.used to take me to church every Sunday. I used to like jumping in
:47:40. > :47:43.the mud so I couldn't go to church, because you can't go with your dress
:47:44. > :47:48.all messed up. So when did faith become your choice? I think I was
:47:49. > :47:53.about 12. I remember looking up at the sky. The sun was setting, so
:47:54. > :47:58.there was a layer of purple, and on top of that there was orange, and
:47:59. > :48:02.then it was light blue, and on top of that it was dark blue, and that
:48:03. > :48:08.was when I knew there was someone up there. It was obvious to me that
:48:09. > :48:14.someone was making stuff, drawing. It looked so created to me. Being
:48:15. > :48:21.back on the road, how does it feel? It's great. I love playing live. The
:48:22. > :48:30.stage, you know, I'm queen up there. I love playing on the stage. And
:48:31. > :48:38.tell me about the new album. All you be, you need.
:48:39. > :48:43.# Stop, drop... It's a really good body of work, and
:48:44. > :48:48.I'm just at the point of putting it all together and just making it have
:48:49. > :48:51.a point. So if you're going to be here, be used.
:48:52. > :48:53.Macy Gray - still got that fabulous husky voice.
:48:54. > :48:56.Now, are you chilling out in your weekend gear?
:48:57. > :48:57.If so, you're in good company,
:48:58. > :49:00.because the Church of England is in the process of loosening
:49:01. > :49:03.Instead of formal robes for services, clergy will be given
:49:04. > :49:08.The more laid back approach is evident elsewhere too.
:49:09. > :49:11.Male MPs have been told they no longer need to wear a tie
:49:12. > :49:23.Away from parliament, dress codes and conventions have
:49:24. > :49:29.I noticed yesterday, Sir, that a member was allowed to ask a question
:49:30. > :49:34.in the chamber without wearing a tie. I have no particular view on
:49:35. > :49:40.that, but have the rules on that changed, Sir? It seems to me that as
:49:41. > :49:45.long as a member of rise in the house in what might be thought to be
:49:46. > :49:50.businesslike attire, the question of whether or not that member is
:49:51. > :49:56.wearing a tie is not absolutely front and centre stage. So am I
:49:57. > :49:59.minded not to call a member simply because that member is not wearing a
:50:00. > :50:03.tie, no. Away from parliament,
:50:04. > :50:04.dress codes and conventions have certainly relaxed over the years
:50:05. > :50:08.in all sorts of professions. So as doctors, teachers and city
:50:09. > :50:10.gents all go more casual is that a good thing -
:50:11. > :50:13.or are we dressing down too much? Joining the panel now
:50:14. > :50:15.are Andrew Ramroop OBE, a master tailor working
:50:16. > :50:17.on Savile Row, Laura Puddy,
:50:18. > :50:19.Style Editor for Heat magazine, Luisa Zissman, businesswoman
:50:20. > :50:20.and TV personality, We're becoming far more
:50:21. > :50:32.casual in our dress. As a style editor,
:50:33. > :50:42.does that bother you? Not at all. I don't think dressing
:50:43. > :50:48.down necessarily means dressing scruffily. You can look very smart
:50:49. > :50:52.in business smart casual attire. It's very subjective. As long as you
:50:53. > :50:55.are dressing appropriately for where you are and where you need to be,
:50:56. > :51:01.there's not a problem in dressing down. Andrew, there is a change in
:51:02. > :51:07.times. I notice you haven't got a tie on. I'm projecting the image of
:51:08. > :51:15.a casual Sunday morning! Does it worry you that things are changing?
:51:16. > :51:18.It doesn't worry me so much, but I think there has been some
:51:19. > :51:22.relaxation. The subject of the tie was raised a few years ago when the
:51:23. > :51:27.London Chamber of Commerce decided that their members did not need wear
:51:28. > :51:31.ties to come into their offices, or join the membership, and at that
:51:32. > :51:35.time there was a lot of confusion in the city as to whether one should
:51:36. > :51:39.dress up or dress down for business. You would dress for business to meet
:51:40. > :51:44.your client, and the client would dress down. So the next time, your
:51:45. > :51:49.client would dress up and you would dress down. So there was a lot of
:51:50. > :51:55.confusion and no uniformity. But if there is an aspect of dressing in a
:51:56. > :52:00.suit but not necessarily a tie... So if Bill turned up for a business
:52:01. > :52:06.meeting dressed like that, how would you feel? It's horses for courses. I
:52:07. > :52:10.wouldn't get in. I have been thrown out of some of the very best hotels
:52:11. > :52:15.and restaurants in my time, and I went to the palace to get my oh be
:52:16. > :52:22.with a Hawaiian shirt on. Nobody complained. The Queen didn't say,
:52:23. > :52:26.I'm not going to give it to him! But everybody thinks you're supposed to
:52:27. > :52:40.wear tales, top hat and everything, but you don't have too. Bill, it's
:52:41. > :52:45.what you feel comfortable in that is what really matters. I don't think
:52:46. > :52:53.it is. I'm not sure it is, because Thais are incredibly uncomfortable.
:52:54. > :52:59.I cannot wear a tie. I do not have a tie. I don't possess one. Talking to
:53:00. > :53:09.some friends last night, we said, why does anybody what is it for? It
:53:10. > :53:19.can keep you warm. Keep you warm? Let's bring Louisa in. They wouldn't
:53:20. > :53:25.have let me on their looking scruffy. They monitor your clothes
:53:26. > :53:28.every morning on it. That is production, not Lord Sugar, but they
:53:29. > :53:32.did tell a couple of the girls to get changed because what they were
:53:33. > :53:38.wearing was not appropriate. I don't think smart casual needs to be
:53:39. > :53:44.scruffy. We are confusing the two things. I think you need to be
:53:45. > :53:49.presentable for work. I wouldn't employ some people if they came to
:53:50. > :53:53.me and I didn't feel they were dressed appropriately for work. It
:53:54. > :53:59.depends what business you are in. You work in the media, so you are
:54:00. > :54:03.fine wearing jeans, flat shoes, cardigan or an oversize jumper.
:54:04. > :54:08.Sometimes I wouldn't want my staff facing clients if they were in jeans
:54:09. > :54:13.and looking scruffy. I'm not saying that women need is a and heels, but
:54:14. > :54:18.you need to look professional for the job you are doing. And in
:54:19. > :54:26.Parliament, that means wearing a tie. Emma looks very smart today.
:54:27. > :54:31.Thank you! Victor has got in touch. What's wrong with this country
:54:32. > :54:36.today? No professionalism. What next? Don't bother to wash or comb
:54:37. > :54:41.your hair. Another says, it's a sad situation when nothing is important
:54:42. > :54:46.enough to dress in a certain way. I couldn't take someone seriously if
:54:47. > :54:52.they dressed too casually. Helen says, we are years behind everyone
:54:53. > :54:58.as it is, let's get into the 21st-century. To quote Coco Chanel,
:54:59. > :55:03.dress shabbily and they notice the dress, but dressed impeccably and
:55:04. > :55:07.they notice the woman. Another says, a friend of mine wanted to become
:55:08. > :55:13.Prime Minister just so he could make everyone wear hats again! Sean, have
:55:14. > :55:18.you got a hat? I do have a hat. Andrew, let's bring this back to the
:55:19. > :55:23.church, because that is why we having this debate. Losing cassocks
:55:24. > :55:27.and belts and ruffs and someone in the church, that's fair enough,
:55:28. > :55:32.isn't it? What really matters in the church is the message that is being
:55:33. > :55:37.delivered to the congregation, and if the church aspires to appeal to a
:55:38. > :55:49.younger audience, it's make the message
:55:50. > :55:52.alive to younger audience, and it's not how you dress. Dressing down
:55:53. > :55:55.does not mean you will attract a younger audience. The important
:55:56. > :55:57.thing is the message. We are dressing down in court as well. I
:55:58. > :56:01.feel they should keep traditional dress in court. You don't go to
:56:02. > :56:04.court for a nice time and to wear jeans. If you are in court it's
:56:05. > :56:09.because you have committed a crime or you are a witness in a crime.
:56:10. > :56:15.It's a serious point. Everybody looks the same if they wear a suit
:56:16. > :56:20.and tie. It is an anonymous look. If you go into a nightclub late at
:56:21. > :56:31.night, which you shouldn't, and there is a mansion of Mafia people
:56:32. > :56:34.there, they will be wearing suits, ties or dinner jackets. If I go in
:56:35. > :56:37.wearing jeans or a T-shirt, I would probably be thrown out. That is
:56:38. > :56:42.absurd. The other thing with wearing suits is that anyone can do it. It's
:56:43. > :56:46.like a uniform. Dressing not according to tradition doesn't mean
:56:47. > :56:50.you have to be shabby or super casual. You are actually putting
:56:51. > :56:55.more effort in if you are not going with the norm. I don't think we
:56:56. > :57:00.should take away individuality. Andrew, you look lovely and really
:57:01. > :57:04.smart, and that is an individual suit. Not a lot of people would wear
:57:05. > :57:09.that jacket, but you still look lovely. You can look professional
:57:10. > :57:14.and still be individual. I have to say, you all look wonderful. This is
:57:15. > :57:22.a bit of a loving! You all look great in your own, unique ways.
:57:23. > :57:27.Emma, we still have comments coming in from the earlier items. We do. We
:57:28. > :57:32.talked about rewilding earlier. Robert says, we hear of farmers
:57:33. > :57:37.being guardians of the landscape, but the fact is that nature would be
:57:38. > :57:43.a different landscape if it was dominated by woodland. Catholicism -
:57:44. > :57:48.Liam says that he is no longer a Catholic because of the medieval
:57:49. > :57:53.ways of thinking. Another says, so sad that religion can still dictate
:57:54. > :58:00.what a woman does in relation to family. And Ben says, with regard to
:58:01. > :58:05.jack becoming Mr England as an amputee, what a hunk.
:58:06. > :58:07.Congratulations, Jack! He is a good-looking guy.
:58:08. > :58:10.Many thanks to all our guests and you at home
:58:11. > :58:14.But Emma will be carrying on the conversation online.
:58:15. > :58:17.Yes - I'll be taking fashion tips from Bill Oddie, and talking to him
:58:18. > :58:28.Log on to facebook.com/bbc SundayMorningLive
:58:29. > :58:34.In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole