:00:00. > :00:15.As concerns about the environment grow, we ask
:00:16. > :00:25.Sooner or later the skies will be full of everyone does this every
:00:26. > :00:27.year. We will keep looking for space in the skies.
:00:28. > :00:30.This selfie taken by a monkey leads to a court battle over
:00:31. > :00:34.Do animals have the same rights as humans?
:00:35. > :00:42.The first female Doctor Who has been announced. The Daleks will be happy
:00:43. > :00:46.to exterminate The Doctor whatever the gender.
:00:47. > :00:49.But now advertisers are under threat too for gender stereotyping.
:00:50. > :00:54.Are ads like this a thing of the past?
:00:55. > :00:58.Five big masculine chunks of chocolate. It's not for girls.
:00:59. > :01:02.And Emma Barnett is here ready to let you have your say.
:01:03. > :01:17.We want to hear from you, which ever time dimension you yourselves in.
:01:18. > :01:23.And I'm sure you want to say some about our first topic, flying.
:01:24. > :01:25.You can contact us by Facebook and Twitter.
:01:26. > :01:26.Don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml.
:01:27. > :01:28.Or text SML followed by your message to 60011.
:01:29. > :01:30.Texts are charged at your standard message rate.
:01:31. > :01:31.Or email us at sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk.
:01:32. > :01:34.However you choose to get in touch, please don't forget to include your
:01:35. > :01:37.name so I can get you involved in our discussions.
:01:38. > :01:39.And later I'll be talking to the BAFTA-winning actor
:01:40. > :01:44.Adeel Akhtar, who doesn't shy away from controversial roles.
:01:45. > :01:52.Do you know what people will say? What will happen? We wouldn't be
:01:53. > :01:58.able to give you away. I play the father of the girl who he eventually
:01:59. > :02:00.by the end of the story kills through what is known as an honour
:02:01. > :02:10.killing. First, fasten your seat belts
:02:11. > :02:13.and let's talk about flying. Air traffic controllers
:02:14. > :02:15.are warning that UK skies Friday was the busiest day
:02:16. > :02:27.of the year, with air traffic controllers handling an estimated
:02:28. > :02:29.8,800 flights - a record number. They have called for a drastic
:02:30. > :02:31.modernisation in the way aircraft Enviromentalists too
:02:32. > :02:35.are concerned about the impact We'll discuss that in a moment
:02:36. > :02:40.after Samanthi Flanagan samples some views from passengers at Manchester
:02:41. > :02:51.Airport. Holidays, weekends, business. More
:02:52. > :02:56.and more of us are taking to the air. During peak times, the skies
:02:57. > :03:00.above the UK are bee hive of activity. I am at Manchester
:03:01. > :03:05.Airport, where a staggering 27 million passengers passed through
:03:06. > :03:10.every year. Today alone 100,000 people will take off and land in one
:03:11. > :03:14.of these. This is a really busy day for you at Manchester Airport and
:03:15. > :03:18.this is the busiest summer ever for UK air travel. We have had 718
:03:19. > :03:23.flights depart from the airport and it will get even busier over summer.
:03:24. > :03:29.As it stands, this weekend alone we will have 400,000 passengers. Do you
:03:30. > :03:33.enjoy being on an aeroplane? Is that part of the holiday? Yes. It is
:03:34. > :03:37.quicker and more convenient. The best thing is take off. What is the
:03:38. > :03:44.appeal of destinations you can only get to by aeroplane? Guaranteed warm
:03:45. > :03:47.weather. The experiences, different food, different people. Huge numbers
:03:48. > :03:53.of people passing through the airport. How do you cope with that
:03:54. > :03:56.capacity? We have just launched a ?1 billion regeneration programme which
:03:57. > :04:01.will see terminal two being redeveloped over ten years, meaning
:04:02. > :04:08.we can accommodate the passengers we have today, but it also means we can
:04:09. > :04:12.have up to 50 million passengers coming through our door. Do any of
:04:13. > :04:15.these passengers feel guilty about flying and the impact on the
:04:16. > :04:20.environment? We think about it but we don't do it often enough for it
:04:21. > :04:23.to have an impact. I don't give it another thought. I have looked at
:04:24. > :04:28.the sky and I have seen the line of smoke, thinking wow. Obviously the
:04:29. > :04:33.environmental impact and the price of the ticket includes the
:04:34. > :04:38.environment tax. I did think about it because the airport is paying for
:04:39. > :04:41.it. I think this every year that it isn't if I mentally friendly and we
:04:42. > :04:45.should do something else. We have had some great staycations. But I
:04:46. > :04:50.can count on one hand the number of days we have been able to go to the
:04:51. > :04:54.beach in the UK. While there is still some space in the sky, we will
:04:55. > :04:57.probably carry on. There are people who think we should fly less because
:04:58. > :05:03.of the impact on the environment. What do you think about that? We are
:05:04. > :05:06.still OK to be flying but we need to do so responsibly. The new aviation
:05:07. > :05:09.strategy which the government is now consulting on will make sure that we
:05:10. > :05:13.not only grow from an aviation perspective but we do so in a way
:05:14. > :05:18.that would be environmentally friendly. It is not about not doing
:05:19. > :05:22.it. It is doing it in the right way. In the meantime, people will just
:05:23. > :05:27.keep on flying. How many times do you fly each year? If we're lucky,
:05:28. > :05:31.twice. Just once this year and it something we look forward to.
:05:32. > :05:36.Hopefully in other words what the end of year without the kids. They
:05:37. > :05:38.don't know about this! -- hopefully another one towards the end of the
:05:39. > :05:41.year without the kids. Samanthi Flanagan at
:05:42. > :05:42.Manchester Airport. Joining us now are Angie Greaves,
:05:43. > :05:47.a radio broadcaster, Graham Hughes,
:05:48. > :05:48.an adventurer and author, Luke Gittos, a lawyer and writer,
:05:49. > :05:57.and Sally Pavey is a campaigner. You have got a world record, Graham.
:05:58. > :06:01.I am the fastest and first person to go to every country in the world
:06:02. > :06:04.without flying. Why on earth would you do that? I thought it would be
:06:05. > :06:08.fun and I raise money for charity and to prove it could be done and to
:06:09. > :06:13.knock down the boundaries and borders, and show that we can travel
:06:14. > :06:17.the world without flying. It is possible. Why is it important not to
:06:18. > :06:28.fly? The environmental impact, first and foremost. What we are doing to
:06:29. > :06:30.the skies is massive and it is having devastating affect on the
:06:31. > :06:33.smaller countries in the world, like Tuvalu, which is suffering from
:06:34. > :06:36.flooding every year. It is soil water, salt water, not just the
:06:37. > :06:42.water that goes away and doesn't leave anything behind. How do you
:06:43. > :06:51.manage to go to every country? Most people don't have the time and
:06:52. > :06:57.money. What a privilege but how do you do it? Moving between islands in
:06:58. > :07:02.the Pacific presents a lot of difficulties. Flying is cheaper,
:07:03. > :07:06.more convenient and quicker. As a broad aim, it is noble not to fly.
:07:07. > :07:11.It is better for all of us to fly less. No, flying is a modern
:07:12. > :07:16.miracle. Not all of us have the time to take trains and buses all over
:07:17. > :07:18.the world. An interesting fact is that the average house income of
:07:19. > :07:23.people using Heathrow Airport has been coming down and down. That is a
:07:24. > :07:27.good thing. More people are able to take flights. I think that is a
:07:28. > :07:32.really good thing. What is also important that this is saving time.
:07:33. > :07:36.Time is very precious. Flying allows us to spend more time doing
:07:37. > :07:39.productive creative things when we get to our destination. Not all of
:07:40. > :07:41.us want to be spending our time getting somewhere. We want to be
:07:42. > :07:55.doing things once we are there and that is really
:07:56. > :07:57.important. A couple of facts. Aviation contributes less than 6% of
:07:58. > :08:00.UK emissions. The impact is pretty negligible. Our carbon emissions are
:08:01. > :08:05.capped because we are a member of the EU ETS. So choosing to fly makes
:08:06. > :08:10.very little difference. And directly in my eye line, she is shaking her
:08:11. > :08:13.head and raising eyebrows! I don't agree with that, I'm afraid. You're
:08:14. > :08:19.talking about carbon trading. And it is not just the UK carbon, it is the
:08:20. > :08:22.trading. These aeroplanes are going to and from destinations so it is a
:08:23. > :08:28.much bigger thing of UK trading. What do you mean by that? They are
:08:29. > :08:31.doing the return journey? Exactly. You are flying to Europe so there is
:08:32. > :08:35.carbon trading going on in Europe and you fly back to us, and there is
:08:36. > :08:41.carbon trading. If we carry on the way we are going, we are going to
:08:42. > :08:46.preach. Carbon trading doesn't work. If you added on the cost onto each
:08:47. > :08:50.ticket, less people would fly. What we are talking about is less than
:08:51. > :08:56.half of the UK population actually fly. We are heavily subsidising an
:08:57. > :09:00.aviation industry. It is not a level playing field like car
:09:01. > :09:07.manufacturing. Aviation is heavily subsidised. So the prices should go
:09:08. > :09:10.up? No! While I am hearing what you are saying and I am in total
:09:11. > :09:13.agreement, the average family who saved their money and decides to go
:09:14. > :09:20.on holiday, is not thinking along the lines. If I want to see family
:09:21. > :09:24.in the United States or Barbados, where can I get my family together
:09:25. > :09:28.and leave the UK and be there within eight hours? Where can you have a
:09:29. > :09:34.huge amount of people in one go going to another destination? I will
:09:35. > :09:38.just say, while I really love your stories, I have also been a big
:09:39. > :09:43.believer that travelling is actually the best education of life. You have
:09:44. > :09:47.probably got stories galore. Absolutely. I don't want to see
:09:48. > :09:51.flight prices going up. If you take a few year, holiday with the kids,
:09:52. > :09:54.fine. It is people flying every other day when they don't need to
:09:55. > :09:57.because we have Skype and the internet and ways of having a
:09:58. > :09:59.conference called without actually going to New York. Shouldn't we
:10:00. > :10:21.change our way of thinking? We used to
:10:22. > :10:23.drive without seat belts and nobody would do that now. And we used to
:10:24. > :10:26.drive cars with exhausts and we can now drive electrically. But we can't
:10:27. > :10:29.fly electrically. At the moment. I know it will take a huge amount of
:10:30. > :10:32.battery. In the future there will be an environmental free way of flying.
:10:33. > :10:35.We are ready have them. In Europe we have the trains. But we don't use
:10:36. > :10:37.them. The idea of getting on a train and waking up in your destination in
:10:38. > :10:45.Europe would be brilliant and then trains would be quicker. It costs me
:10:46. > :10:49.more to travel by train from Gatwick to London than it does to fly to
:10:50. > :10:54.Europe. That is not sustainable. As someone who flies an awful lot, she
:10:55. > :11:01.even flew into the studio! That is harsh. It is not all about leisure.
:11:02. > :11:03.People use flights for business a lot of the time.
:11:04. > :11:08.I'm joined now by the businessman Bal Bansal in our Nottingham studio.
:11:09. > :11:14.How often do you fly for work? Probably once a month at least if
:11:15. > :11:19.not twice. People could argue in this day and age you could do those
:11:20. > :11:23.meetings, not sure how far you are flying, but you could do them over
:11:24. > :11:27.Skype or FaceTime, using the computer. Why bother flying to a
:11:28. > :11:31.meeting? You get so much from talking to people around the table.
:11:32. > :11:35.I understand that we have new technologies like Skype and we can
:11:36. > :11:38.talk and see people. But you can easily get distracted. I have been
:11:39. > :11:43.on Skype calls when someone gets distracted and something else is
:11:44. > :11:46.going on. If you are sitting round a table with someone and talking to
:11:47. > :11:51.them, there is so much more value you can get out of that. That is
:11:52. > :11:55.your argument for it. Do you ever feel guilty? You are taking many
:11:56. > :12:00.more flights than the average Brit. What do you feel about that? I don't
:12:01. > :12:05.feel guilty. Time is money. I need to get to places quickly. I need to
:12:06. > :12:11.talk to people, conversations, decisions to be made, and the
:12:12. > :12:13.quicker I can do that, the better. The amount of time you spend
:12:14. > :12:17.checking in, you could have spent that doing other deals. I can do
:12:18. > :12:21.emails, which I do sometimes, but also the process is getting quicker.
:12:22. > :12:27.The app has the boarding pass, so I don't queue for the ticket, I go
:12:28. > :12:32.through, onto the plane. Obviously security is essential. The seat on
:12:33. > :12:35.the plane. It is quicker now. And it will only get quicker. Would you
:12:36. > :12:39.like to do more flights? Would you like more options to fly at
:12:40. > :12:46.different times and have it be more flexible? Some people take trains.
:12:47. > :12:51.There are lots of low cost airlines now. I can get to Paris for ?40. Try
:12:52. > :12:58.to get a train ticket in England from lethal Nottingham to London and
:12:59. > :13:03.it costs ?60, ?80. -- from Leeds or Nottingham to London. Flying is more
:13:04. > :13:04.cost-effective. We were talking earlier in the discussion about
:13:05. > :13:09.environmental concerns overflying. Joining me from our Oxford
:13:10. > :13:17.studio now is Ian Jopson, Do you think enough is being done to
:13:18. > :13:26.make flying more environmentally friendly? I do. You would expect me
:13:27. > :13:31.to say that, working for Sustainable Aviation. You can't fly millions of
:13:32. > :13:36.people every day in a way that is eco friendly. You have got to burn
:13:37. > :13:40.millions of litres of oil. It is true. We need to accept that we have
:13:41. > :13:43.an environmental impact as an industry but it is also important to
:13:44. > :13:51.note that as an industry we are the third bid biggest aerospace sector
:13:52. > :13:55.in the world. We donate ?22 billion every year to the UK GDP. But of
:13:56. > :14:01.course there is environmental impact. Aeroplanes make noise, they
:14:02. > :14:05.emit carbon dioxide, they burn fuel. So what are we doing specifically to
:14:06. > :14:11.address that? What are you doing in the aviation industry?
:14:12. > :14:17.As a coalition of around 40 of the biggest aviation companies in the
:14:18. > :14:21.UK, we have set out a road map to 2050 where we see through various
:14:22. > :14:27.measures that I will come onto shortly that we can double the
:14:28. > :14:32.amount of traffic in UK airspace by 2050 whilst not actually increasing
:14:33. > :14:38.CO2 emissions. How will we do that? Firstly we will invest in new
:14:39. > :14:47.fuel-efficient aircraft. Since 2005 the UK airlines have invested some
:14:48. > :14:50.?37 billion in around 470 new aircraft, between 15 and 5% more
:14:51. > :14:56.fuel efficient than the ones they replaced. There are another 400 of
:14:57. > :15:01.those on order. We fly more fuel efficient and quieter aeroplanes. We
:15:02. > :15:06.also change the airspace to make it more efficient. Since 2008 we have
:15:07. > :15:12.made in 300 changes to UK airspace, saving around 5% of CO2 emissions,
:15:13. > :15:17.we have more to do. The airspace above the UK is increasingly
:15:18. > :15:22.congested, we are driving towards airspace modernisation which will
:15:23. > :15:26.make the routes that the aircraft fly more efficient, flying closer to
:15:27. > :15:33.their optimum levels, claiming smoothly to reduce fuel noise and
:15:34. > :15:37.descending more efficiently to reduce fuel and noise again. We are
:15:38. > :15:44.investing a huge amount in developing alternative fuels,
:15:45. > :15:49.sustainable alternative fuels. On the international stage, the
:15:50. > :15:53.industry is committed to by 2020 developing a global what is called a
:15:54. > :15:58.market-based measures scheme, effectively an emissions trading
:15:59. > :16:03.scheme which will reduce emissions between now... So 2020 and 2050. Ian
:16:04. > :16:14.Jopson, Djere Sustainable Aviation, that is what the aviation industry
:16:15. > :16:19.has to say. Back to the panel. Bal said it is important for business,
:16:20. > :16:23.should we be flying more? People say you can do it over Skype or the
:16:24. > :16:26.phone, this is human interaction we are talking about, travel enables
:16:27. > :16:31.human interaction and for the world to be a smaller place. It is not
:16:32. > :16:35.very long ago that if you lived in one country and someone else lived
:16:36. > :16:39.in a different one would be very hard to see and interact with them
:16:40. > :16:44.face to face. I think it would be awful if we just said people can do
:16:45. > :16:49.this over Skype, it would mean the end of face-to-face interaction.
:16:50. > :16:53.Aviation is an important tool for enabling human relationships. Sally
:16:54. > :16:56.is shaking her head is again. Many people have different views
:16:57. > :17:00.depending on where they live. Lots of people do not want the third
:17:01. > :17:03.Remnick -- third runway at Heathrow because they live on the flight
:17:04. > :17:10.path. There is a lot of NIMBY, not in my backyard. You can refuse Mata
:17:11. > :17:16.accuse people of being NIMBYs, there is huge drop in business travel
:17:17. > :17:22.which is only contributing 20%. This growth is low-cost. A huge drop
:17:23. > :17:26.because...? People are not travelling for business as much.
:17:27. > :17:31.That is not on airport, that is across the country. I love Ian
:17:32. > :17:37.Tibbetts, but new aircraft, yes, not the low-cost ones. They are
:17:38. > :17:41.something like 25-year-old aircraft. EasyJet are investing but they do
:17:42. > :17:46.not too long haul, you have to look at the long haul. If I may touch on
:17:47. > :17:51.the noise factor, Ian touches on these streamlined ones, they are
:17:52. > :17:55.concentrating putting motorways above peoples homes, they are
:17:56. > :18:00.getting every single arrival and departure. That is how they cram in
:18:01. > :18:04.more aircraft and save the CO2, there is no consideration about the
:18:05. > :18:09.noise on the ground I am particularly concerned at the fact
:18:10. > :18:13.that everyone here seems to want to put profit above morality.
:18:14. > :18:17.If we continue to do that, we will still be the world leader in
:18:18. > :18:21.slavery, which were used to be. You have to stop at some point and say
:18:22. > :18:25.what will happen in the future? If the polar ice caps melt we will lose
:18:26. > :18:30.every beach in the world. It is all very well going on a beach holiday
:18:31. > :18:34.now, when there is no beach in 20 years, how do you explain that to
:18:35. > :18:39.the grandkids? Ehmer? Bill says I don't care about
:18:40. > :18:52.the environment, being frank, I have no children or grandchildren, I
:18:53. > :18:56.want my travels as convenient and fast as possible. Stuart says I can
:18:57. > :18:59.fly from Edinburgh to Cardiff in an hours ?80 return, compared to an
:19:00. > :19:02.eight-hour journey and ?230 on the train. Nadia says I refuse to fly
:19:03. > :19:04.anywhere in Europe we can travel to public transport, planes are causing
:19:05. > :19:07.untold damage to the skies. Another viewer says maybe economics can save
:19:08. > :19:12.the world, budget airlines are cheaper than trains, increased costs
:19:13. > :19:15.would make us think twice. Another e-mail, most families have
:19:16. > :19:20.won far -- one holiday a year when they fly with a full plane full of
:19:21. > :19:23.people. What about rich people who fly whole aeroplanes for just one
:19:24. > :19:28.person? There is a concept that people who
:19:29. > :19:33.fly you... Are selfish, the first person said he did not care about
:19:34. > :19:40.the environment. I care about the environment. Profit or environment?
:19:41. > :19:46.Climate change, we have to deal with that problem. The problem with
:19:47. > :19:49.places like you mentioned is a lack of infrastructure. Floods are a
:19:50. > :19:53.problem in the poor countries that need to be developed to cope with
:19:54. > :19:58.climate change, it is a different issue. It is their problem?! It is a
:19:59. > :20:04.problem with infrastructure and development. We have floats in the
:20:05. > :20:07.UK. It is not a moral issue about taking a holiday. Taking a holiday
:20:08. > :20:15.is not akin to slavery, there is nothing morally wrong with taking a
:20:16. > :20:20.cheap flight. This is about... This is about leisure time. More and more
:20:21. > :20:23.poor people can take holidays, that is the key dimension. I think there
:20:24. > :20:27.is snobbery around cheap flights, the people taking cheap flights are
:20:28. > :20:32.the people who can only afford cheap flights, the people who take one
:20:33. > :20:35.holiday a year, at max, to spend some time abroad. There is a
:20:36. > :20:40.snobbery as if that is not a worthwhile thing to do. I completely
:20:41. > :20:46.agree on cheap flights, I think they should stay. I think the train fares
:20:47. > :20:48.need to come down so we have an option.
:20:49. > :20:53.ALL TALK AT ONCE This discussion has certainly taken off, but we need to
:20:54. > :20:56.landed for the time being. -- land it.
:20:57. > :20:59.Adeel Akhtar has always been admired as a go-to actor with parts
:21:00. > :21:00.in prestigious productions such as The Night Manager
:21:01. > :21:05.But this year he received a deserved public accolade when he became
:21:06. > :21:07.the first non-white performer to win best male actor at the BAFTAs
:21:08. > :21:09.for his performance in the hard-hitting BBC drama
:21:10. > :21:18.I went to meet him to talk about his career and his upbringing
:21:19. > :21:37.Yes, he is here. Yes, it is what we suspect. You can call me Jas. I
:21:38. > :21:41.continue that your husband is an extremely persistent man.
:21:42. > :21:45.Dramas like The Night Manager, Appletree Yard, we will get onto
:21:46. > :21:51.some of the other work in a moment. Very diverse work. What first drew
:21:52. > :21:54.you to acting? When I was growing up, whenever I turned on television
:21:55. > :21:59.and saw Asian stories being told there were things like My Beautiful
:22:00. > :22:07.Launderette, Buddha Of Suburbia, Bhaji On The Beach. They were very
:22:08. > :22:12.original stories being told about Asians and there experience. I was
:22:13. > :22:18.drawn to it. You wanted to be part of that world? I did. Murdered By My
:22:19. > :22:28.Father, let's talk about it. You're beautiful. Like your mother. She'd
:22:29. > :22:32.be proud. Just remind me and everyone else,
:22:33. > :22:41.your role in this particular drama? I play the father of a girl who he
:22:42. > :22:45.eventually, by the end of the story, kills through what is known as an
:22:46. > :22:49.honour killing. You've been promised already, that's
:22:50. > :22:54.all that matters! Do you know what people will say?! What will happen?!
:22:55. > :22:58.To Alice?! We would not even be able to give you away!
:22:59. > :23:05.It is a story about pride. We all fall victim to that in our own way.
:23:06. > :23:08.The idea of culture and religion, ethnicity, sexuality, it bleeds away
:23:09. > :23:18.and that is what we are trying to get to.
:23:19. > :23:23.You won the BAFTA for that. That must have been an amazing feeling,
:23:24. > :23:30.the first non-white actor to win Best Male in the TV batters? What do
:23:31. > :23:37.you make of that? Amazing. Pride and joy to think that somebody looking
:23:38. > :23:42.out there, a younger version of me, might find some inspiration. I think
:23:43. > :23:47.you're looking for the phrase role model but do not want to say it?
:23:48. > :23:53.That would be nice. Other Asian actors I have spoken to have limited
:23:54. > :23:57.roles for them, whether it is shopkeepers all the stereotypes. I
:23:58. > :24:03.suppose that is an issue? It was, when I was first acting it was very
:24:04. > :24:07.narrow and I only got certain roles. There are real obstacles that I have
:24:08. > :24:12.gone through and other Asian actors have gone through. But I try not to
:24:13. > :24:17.look at that. I just tried to do what I do, the best I can. You grew
:24:18. > :24:23.up in a Muslim household, was religion a big part of life? Sort
:24:24. > :24:30.of. I grew up as great a moderate Muslim. I definitely was aware of
:24:31. > :24:35.other Muslim kids who had a lot more strict upbringing than I had. Were
:24:36. > :24:40.you religious yourself, did you go through that stage? It was more a
:24:41. > :24:44.nod to it, I would not eat pork or drink, but when my sister went to
:24:45. > :24:49.university she became a practising Muslim and through her I was
:24:50. > :24:55.practising for quite a chunk of my teenage years, praying five times a
:24:56. > :25:01.day and stuff. 15, 16, I just stopped. I got to a point where the
:25:02. > :25:06.questions that it used to answer certainly were not as important as
:25:07. > :25:09.other questions I was asking. My life took a different direction,
:25:10. > :25:12.really. And your life took a different
:25:13. > :25:18.direction may be from what your dad wanted? In terms of career. What did
:25:19. > :25:23.he make of the acting? My dad was and still is quite strict.
:25:24. > :25:27.Understandably so, he came over at a particular time from Pakistan, it
:25:28. > :25:33.was really tough for him to find work and provide for his family, so
:25:34. > :25:38.he just wanted me and my sister to be professionals. Ironically, your
:25:39. > :25:43.first big break was as a hapless terrorist. In the British film For
:25:44. > :25:54.Lions. You fly to the target, when I dial
:25:55. > :25:58.this you go to heaven, Brook Road. -- brother Crow. Did you have mixed
:25:59. > :26:05.feelings about joking about terrorism? Terrorism? Not really, if
:26:06. > :26:10.you do it well it is truthful and you can't knock it. Running squat
:26:11. > :26:14.down, holding explosives, things you should not laugh at but really
:26:15. > :26:21.funny. What did your dad make of it? I think he laughed. I take it he is
:26:22. > :26:29.on board by now? Yes. Did the BAFTA help out? He is not outspoken about
:26:30. > :26:34.his feelings, he would just go, you know, well done. I put it in pride
:26:35. > :26:38.of place in the living room. I have just had a little baby and it is a
:26:39. > :26:44.bit chaotic in the house and I found it behind the Weetabix packet in the
:26:45. > :26:51.kitchen and we haven't moved it since. It's got to fit into life,
:26:52. > :26:53.doesn't it? Thank you so much for talking to us. I have really enjoyed
:26:54. > :26:56.it. Still to come on
:26:57. > :26:58.Sunday Morning Live: The shipping container turned
:26:59. > :27:08.into a des res for the homeless. It gave me an opportunity to
:27:09. > :27:13.integrate back into society properly and have my own space.
:27:14. > :27:15.This week began with the announcement that the Daleks'
:27:16. > :27:17.arch enemy Doctor Who would transform into female form
:27:18. > :27:21.Jodie Whittaker will break the all-male mould by taking
:27:22. > :27:27.Later in the week, advertisers were put on notice that they would
:27:28. > :27:28.be facing tougher rules from their watchdog,
:27:29. > :27:37.the Advertising Standards Authority, on gender portrayal.
:27:38. > :27:48.I'm reorganising my living space... Pampering Hector... Rehearsing with
:27:49. > :27:54.the girl Starc before writing down my innermost thoughts. That's
:27:55. > :28:04.nothing compared to captain awesome's day. Island cut the enemy
:28:05. > :28:11.secret Starc -- I'll uncover enemy secret...
:28:12. > :28:15.It doesn't just happen by magic. Behind every great Christmas,
:28:16. > :28:30.there's mum. Women! Don't expect any help on
:28:31. > :28:35.Thursday! It's going to be OK for an advert to
:28:36. > :28:39.show a woman shopping or cleaning or for a man doing the DIY task in the
:28:40. > :28:44.home. What we will be looking for is adverts that go beyond that and
:28:45. > :28:48.paint a picture that it is a woman 's to tide you back to her family
:28:49. > :28:53.who have trashed the house, that is her job in life. We are worried
:28:54. > :28:58.about that sort of depiction. Similarly adverts mocking men for
:28:59. > :29:00.being hopeless at performing straightforward parental or
:29:01. > :29:01.household tasks just because they are a man.
:29:02. > :29:04.So the ad men and ad women will be under scrutiny.
:29:05. > :29:06."About time," say some, while others say it's another
:29:07. > :29:09.So are we too sensitive to stereotypes?
:29:10. > :29:12.Joining us now are Angela Epstein, a journalist and broadcaster.
:29:13. > :29:15.Otegha Uwagba is a writer and brand consultant who has
:29:16. > :29:26.Emma Dabiri is a social historian and feminist.
:29:27. > :29:42.Obviously I need to come to you first since I got your name wrong!
:29:43. > :29:47.Isn't this going over the top? A bit too PC conscious? Regulating
:29:48. > :29:52.advertising for something like this? It isn't over the top at all. If you
:29:53. > :29:56.listen to what the guy speaking were saying, it is very reasonable. It is
:29:57. > :30:00.not saying that women can't do any domestic work in an advert, and men
:30:01. > :30:08.can't do anything traditionally assumed to be the man's role. They
:30:09. > :30:11.are looking at more pernicious messages that are firm stereotypes.
:30:12. > :30:18.It is not as though advertising is a benign industry that seeks to
:30:19. > :30:24.disseminate information. It absolutely is trying to condition us
:30:25. > :30:27.to think in certain ways. And it is absolutely necessary that we have a
:30:28. > :30:31.regulatory body that makes sure that is not done in ways that are
:30:32. > :30:35.extremely damaging, which has often been the case in the past. The
:30:36. > :30:41.Advertising Standards Authority chief executive said that tougher
:30:42. > :30:43.standards can play an important role in tackling inequalities. I think
:30:44. > :30:48.the whole thing is a load of rubbish, to be quite honest. At the
:30:49. > :30:50.moment we have a female Prime Minister, female monarch and the
:30:51. > :30:59.most powerful person in the judiciary is a woman, and they have
:31:00. > :31:03.always days back row all been brought up -- and they have all been
:31:04. > :31:09.brought up watching Fairy Liquid adverts. But we have the gender pay
:31:10. > :31:12.gap and inequality. I should earn the same as you if I am doing the
:31:13. > :31:19.same job, without question. I don't care whose face is on the banknote,
:31:20. > :31:25.man or a woman, so long as I get the same number of banknotes. But gender
:31:26. > :31:29.stereotypes catch the accident of what is out there. There are
:31:30. > :31:34.exaggerated truths. I am Jewish, a mother with kids, and if I fuss and
:31:35. > :31:38.say you haven't eaten your dinner, I get colleagues saying I am a
:31:39. > :31:41.protective Jewish mother. I'm not offended by that because it is
:31:42. > :31:45.taking a little side of my character and making it into an exaggerated
:31:46. > :31:49.truth. That happened in advertising. Women like to keep their houses
:31:50. > :31:53.clean and nice and it doesn't stop them being high-flying corporate
:31:54. > :31:57.lawyers because the two are not mutually exclusive and advertising
:31:58. > :32:05.just plays on that. You have worked in advertising. I am all for the
:32:06. > :32:09.regulation. In journalism there is the free speech argument, which I
:32:10. > :32:11.understand. Advertising is about influencing people to change their
:32:12. > :32:15.behaviour and it needs to be regulated like other businesses. As
:32:16. > :32:18.for the stereotypes you just discussed, the protective Jewish
:32:19. > :32:24.mother is benign. A stereotype that is not benign our stereotypes
:32:25. > :32:28.associated with black men, black women, people of colour, disabled
:32:29. > :32:33.people, gay people. Stereotypes kill. The reason Trayvon Martin was
:32:34. > :32:37.shot down is because there is a stereotype black men being criminals
:32:38. > :32:40.and is dangerous. I don't remember seeing any positive black role
:32:41. > :32:44.models on television during the 80s and it didn't turn me into a
:32:45. > :32:48.criminal. They were always bad guys. I am doing something very different
:32:49. > :32:54.and so are you. Of course but it is fair to say that we are probably
:32:55. > :32:58.exceptions. If you turn on the BBC, any TV channel, there are not that
:32:59. > :33:01.many people of colour who are not playing the council estate
:33:02. > :33:05.stereotype. It is important that we have better examples and role
:33:06. > :33:09.models. Take us into an advertising board room. Are there lots of women
:33:10. > :33:14.and black people? In the boardrooms, there are not. It is generally white
:33:15. > :33:19.men and it is something I always found deeply problematic and I am
:33:20. > :33:21.trying to change that with my brand. There are black people in
:33:22. > :33:25.advertising and women but they are at the bottom. The decision makers
:33:26. > :33:31.and strategists are white men and that needs to change. When we are
:33:32. > :33:35.talking about regulation, we're also talking about protecting them. The
:33:36. > :33:39.stereotype of men not being able to cook and do things, which comes into
:33:40. > :33:43.this. I don't think men or women need protecting from stereotypes. I
:33:44. > :33:48.don't know any women who had their life choices determined by adverts.
:33:49. > :33:52.They don't exist. If you look across the board, women are smashing gender
:33:53. > :33:56.stereotypes in all areas of society. They are outperforming men in
:33:57. > :33:59.professional life and education. They are leaving any stereotypical
:34:00. > :34:03.vision of what women should do in the dust. The reality is that women
:34:04. > :34:13.can cope with stereotypes. If you look at the research that the ASA
:34:14. > :34:20.put into this, it is junk. They treat it as fun, stereotypes. People
:34:21. > :34:24.recognise that it is superficial. What about little kids that are
:34:25. > :34:28.watching? People can make a judgment about what an adverts reflect real
:34:29. > :34:31.life. Everyone recognises when an advert is making a stereotypical
:34:32. > :34:36.point. If we are saying that adverts don't influence, what is the point
:34:37. > :34:40.of them? They do influence and they do have an important role. The point
:34:41. > :34:45.is that people can make informed decisions. But do they? Nobody knows
:34:46. > :34:50.any woman who has had their life choices affected by what appeared in
:34:51. > :34:56.an advert. They don't exist. It is not advertisement alone. It is
:34:57. > :35:00.multilayered. All of these ideas about what women should do and
:35:01. > :35:06.should be are coming from across society and advertising is just one
:35:07. > :35:14.part of that. Angela, can I put this to you. The Yorkie advert. How did
:35:15. > :35:18.it make you feel? It made me laugh. Not for women? I just didn't care. I
:35:19. > :35:22.have a 13-year-old daughter with three older brothers. She should
:35:23. > :35:25.either be a tremendous tomboy, brought up with mud and dirt and
:35:26. > :35:29.footballs, and not because I have said they have got to play with
:35:30. > :35:32.those things because they are boys. The instead, biology, whatever it is
:35:33. > :35:36.as making them do those things, and she loves dolls and poor fee and
:35:37. > :35:48.glittery accessories. She said she wants to be a human rights lawyer
:35:49. > :35:52.one day and the next she wants to run a beauty salon. She has seen me
:35:53. > :35:56.being a working mother. I don't want her choices to be diminished. I
:35:57. > :36:00.don't think Fairy Liquid adverts will limit choice. It makes us laugh
:36:01. > :36:04.and we are consumers. We want to know if that bottle of washing up
:36:05. > :36:07.liquid will do the job. I have a 19-year-old daughter and I was
:36:08. > :36:11.uncomfortable looking back at that Yorkie advert. What do you think?
:36:12. > :36:19.That advert I didn't actually find that problematic. For little girls?
:36:20. > :36:24.It is an exaggerated example of a gender stereotype. If you are
:36:25. > :36:28.slightly older and more intelligent, you can see that it is an
:36:29. > :36:31.exaggerated example. What are problematic things like the beach
:36:32. > :36:34.body advert, which shows the negative stereotype of what women's
:36:35. > :36:39.bodies should look like and those are that young girls and teenagers
:36:40. > :36:45.see and internalise as what they should do. It is the same thing with
:36:46. > :36:50.adverts about mothers looking after Christmas. Why can't dads look after
:36:51. > :36:54.Christmas and do the housework? We are still talking about it 20 years
:36:55. > :36:58.later. It was such a rarity to reverse the stereotype like that.
:36:59. > :37:05.Let's take a non-commercial break and go to Emma. Very good. Keith
:37:06. > :37:09.says stereotyping happens because stereotypes actually exist. Burying
:37:10. > :37:13.your head in the sand and tarting will not stop them happening. Susan
:37:14. > :37:18.says if we are eager to accept that women can do anything, we should
:37:19. > :37:22.also embrace that we can be perfectly happy in the home roles
:37:23. > :37:25.that we have held for generations. David says that stereotypes have an
:37:26. > :37:29.effect in real life so let's do something about it. There says it is
:37:30. > :37:34.about time that there was more equality in gender and the way it is
:37:35. > :37:39.portrayed. Stereotypes should be wiped out and we need to remember
:37:40. > :37:42.that anyone can do anything. Marie says the reason a stereotype becomes
:37:43. > :37:47.a stereotype in the first place is because it is a truism. Let people
:37:48. > :37:50.be people and teach children the same thing as well. Thank you. And
:37:51. > :37:59.thank you to our panel. I'm afraid we are out of time on this.
:38:00. > :38:01.Homelessness is a growing problem in the UK, manifested most starkly
:38:02. > :38:04.by those sleeping rough on the streets of our cities.
:38:05. > :38:06.That reportedly amounted to more than 4,000 people
:38:07. > :38:10.A Bristol businessman concerned about the issue has decided that
:38:11. > :38:12.rather than give money to the homeless he would find
:38:13. > :38:14.a unique way of helping those with nowhere to sleep,
:38:15. > :38:22.Today I am in Bristol and I am house-hunting. This isn't exactly a
:38:23. > :38:29.prime location but it is the beginning of one man's dream. That
:38:30. > :38:36.man is Jasper Thompson, who is bringing a whole new meaning to
:38:37. > :38:41.homes under the hammer. Hello. I'm very busy at the moment. I'm good,
:38:42. > :38:45.thank you. This is the site! I can hear lots of noise and I can see
:38:46. > :38:52.lots of container type things. What is going on? Today we are completing
:38:53. > :38:59.this shipping container. It is actually a shipping container.
:39:00. > :39:03.Jasper is transforming these 3.5 tonne steel structures into flats
:39:04. > :39:08.for the homeless. This one was donated to us by a local shipping
:39:09. > :39:18.company. Can you show me around? Absolutely. Mind your step. This is
:39:19. > :39:29.the bathroom. And we have a living area. This is going to be a proper
:39:30. > :39:32.home for someone? A proper home for someone. I appreciate the help you
:39:33. > :39:37.have given me over the last few months. Jasper has never worked with
:39:38. > :39:41.homeless people before. He has been in the army, he has worked in
:39:42. > :39:45.private security in Afghanistan and Iraq, and now he runs a Jamaican
:39:46. > :39:49.restaurant in Bristol. He came up with this novel plan to put a roof
:39:50. > :39:52.over people's heads last winter. The shipping containers came about
:39:53. > :39:57.through the use of what we have got on this site at the moment. It was
:39:58. > :40:01.previously a car wash. I spoke to one of the guys who left it here and
:40:02. > :40:04.he said I could utilise it. I put six guys in the containers during
:40:05. > :40:11.the winter months, just to help them. Just to get out of the cold
:40:12. > :40:16.for a bit. I decided it was a good idea and I decided to convert them
:40:17. > :40:20.into flats. He has also converted his friends and restaurant customers
:40:21. > :40:25.into workers to help out. He has now persuaded a bunch of local tradesmen
:40:26. > :40:29.to give up their time for free. A hard-working man here called Gary.
:40:30. > :40:36.What are you doing today? Just a bit of security. Helping out with the
:40:37. > :40:42.plumbing. What do you think about this project? It helps people to get
:40:43. > :40:46.off the street. It helps with drug problems and hopefully help them get
:40:47. > :40:49.back into life. Another helping hand today is from Lee, who was about to
:40:50. > :40:54.move into one of the shipping containers. He has been homeless for
:40:55. > :41:01.18 months, sleeping rough in woodland. How did you become
:41:02. > :41:05.homeless? I was working as a head chef for about eight years. I was
:41:06. > :41:10.under a hell of a lot of pressure all the time. I just couldn't really
:41:11. > :41:15.function any more as a human. I started to have a meltdown, really.
:41:16. > :41:20.I had to pack in work because I was so stressed out. I didn't have any
:41:21. > :41:26.way of supporting myself and I ended up homeless. While we have been
:41:27. > :41:30.talking, Jasper has been out to get supplies and has come across another
:41:31. > :41:35.homeless man in need of shelter. We were coming back from the shops. The
:41:36. > :41:39.van broke down. And as I walked around the corner, there was a line
:41:40. > :41:46.of disused cars. I found him in the car. What is your name? Dale? Hello.
:41:47. > :41:53.How long have you been living in the car? Since mats. And why? The break
:41:54. > :42:02.up of a relationship. -- six months. What was it like? Variable. Some
:42:03. > :42:08.days I had nothing. What have you come here for today? Just something
:42:09. > :42:11.to eat and a chat. In this unusual community it is not just local
:42:12. > :42:15.tradesmen volunteering time and skills. The future tenants of these
:42:16. > :42:19.containers, the homeless people themselves, have got to pitch in as
:42:20. > :42:23.well. It is really important to get these homeless guys working on the
:42:24. > :42:30.containers. It gives them self belief, self-worth. A structure to
:42:31. > :42:38.their day. And potentially a home at the end of it. This man has his eye
:42:39. > :42:40.on this container home. He has been on the streets until recently
:42:41. > :42:45.struggling with drug addiction. I have been sleeping rough for six
:42:46. > :42:48.months. Now I am here, working as part of a community, helping myself
:42:49. > :42:54.in the first place and helping other homeless people to rebuild their
:42:55. > :42:57.lives. I am blessed, you know? Jasper reckons that all in the
:42:58. > :43:03.containers should cost around ?10,000 each to buy and refurbished.
:43:04. > :43:08.But thanks to the hard-working volunteers and donated fittings, so
:43:09. > :43:11.far they have got nothing. He is planning another 20 units in Bristol
:43:12. > :43:16.and he hopes they will take off nationwide. The first container is
:43:17. > :43:23.now a finished home and Lee will soon have a roof over his head. How
:43:24. > :43:31.are you doing? Very good. How are you? Ready for the big move? I am
:43:32. > :43:41.indeed. I hope you get sorted, mate. A proper bed. And a shower! It is
:43:42. > :43:47.quite big and roomy. It is like a little hotel shower. It is going to
:43:48. > :43:50.give me some security, an opportunity to integrate back into
:43:51. > :43:54.society properly. I can find work. I can live here, do bits and pieces
:43:55. > :44:00.and just have my own space. People taking selfies like this
:44:01. > :44:03.is a routine sight these days. But a famous selfie has now
:44:04. > :44:13.ended up as the subject of a court battle in America.
:44:14. > :44:15.That's because the picture The image went viral with millions
:44:16. > :44:19.of people viewing it. Photographer David Slater set up
:44:20. > :44:22.the shot and so claims copyright. But the animal rights group
:44:23. > :44:25.Peta says the macaque monkey is the owner,
:44:26. > :44:27.and has taken the matter to court The case highlights the broader
:44:28. > :44:32.issue of whether animals deserve the same rights as humans,
:44:33. > :44:36.which we'll move on to shortly. But first let's talk
:44:37. > :44:38.about this dispute over Joining the panel now
:44:39. > :44:43.are David Slater, the photographer whose camera was used to take
:44:44. > :44:47.the monkey selfie, Elisa Allen, the director of Peta UK,
:44:48. > :44:49.Peter Tatchell, a human rights campaigner, and Angela
:44:50. > :45:03.Epstein is still with us. We have to start with you, David.
:45:04. > :45:07.Tell us the story, B is the sort of photographs you normally take? I am
:45:08. > :45:11.a conservation photographer, it has been my passion and play for 20
:45:12. > :45:14.years. I was in a tropical rainforest where these macaques
:45:15. > :45:19.live, so much so that they befriended me over the days that I
:45:20. > :45:24.was with them. I thought if I set my camera up on a tripod and offered
:45:25. > :45:28.them a button to press, a cable release, no doubt their natural
:45:29. > :45:32.curiosity would be to bring them in, press the button. The noise of the
:45:33. > :45:36.camera excited them, I press the button, made the noise, they would
:45:37. > :45:41.look on the lens and take their own photograph. It is a fantastic
:45:42. > :45:46.photograph, but the key thing is you enticed them that they press the
:45:47. > :45:51.button? I am definitely the creator of this, it is my intent to my
:45:52. > :45:55.creativity and also my experience with the monkeys that I knew there
:45:56. > :46:00.was a great chance they would press the button. The problem is people
:46:01. > :46:07.now think that pressing the button is taking a photograph. Elisa Allen,
:46:08. > :46:13.why is it important that the monkey has the rights to the photo? Very
:46:14. > :46:17.quickly, US copyright law is very clear on the issue, it does not
:46:18. > :46:20.matter who owns the camera, it is the individual who presses the
:46:21. > :46:26.shutter button who is the creator of the image. I really want to look at
:46:27. > :46:31.the wider issue here, that is if this case is successful, this would
:46:32. > :46:36.be the very first time that an animal has been declared the owner
:46:37. > :46:43.of property rather than simply seen as a piece of property, which is how
:46:44. > :46:47.the law currently use animals. There is not anything inherently extreme
:46:48. > :46:52.about this lawsuit, if we look at 100 years ago women were not allowed
:46:53. > :46:57.to own property, women were seen as the property of men, as were
:46:58. > :47:02.children. Thankfully society has evolved and history tells us the law
:47:03. > :47:07.evolves with it. Animal rights is the same as gender rights, in
:47:08. > :47:10.equality? Certainly, Peter can speak about this issue and the into link
:47:11. > :47:16.between human rights and animal rights, but in this case we are
:47:17. > :47:21.questioning, just as your age, your race don't determine whether or not
:47:22. > :47:28.you are entitled to rights, maybe your species should not? Lots of
:47:29. > :47:30.people will be watching this and they will say that a lovely
:47:31. > :47:36.organisation which looks after animals are bullies and many people
:47:37. > :47:39.and companies are to be bad things, monkeys as pets, circuses, wherever
:47:40. > :47:46.they are being treated inhumanely. Surely you should be picking those
:47:47. > :47:51.fights. Look at David? Exactly. He has gone there to raise the profile
:47:52. > :47:55.of these monkeys and you are attacking him. This is not a
:47:56. > :47:58.personal issue, David and I spent a good bit of time just getting to
:47:59. > :48:04.know each other and it is safe to say that we agree on more than we
:48:05. > :48:08.disagree on. It is not a personal matter, this is a copyright dispute
:48:09. > :48:14.and it does not change the fact that David is trying to claim ownership
:48:15. > :48:17.over an image that he did not take and is attempting to profit from an
:48:18. > :48:22.image that is not or should not be his. Peter, there are people around
:48:23. > :48:25.the world really struggling, marginalised, no control over their
:48:26. > :48:29.lives, being abused. There are so many people like that. Does this
:48:30. > :48:34.undermine their battle when you are talking about a monkey? Not at all,
:48:35. > :48:39.human rights and animal rights come from the same place, it is about the
:48:40. > :48:43.prevention of suffering. Is a monkey suffering because it has not got
:48:44. > :48:47.money from a picture? A group that is a different issue. In that case I
:48:48. > :48:54.would say if a randomly and accidentally pressed the shutter
:48:55. > :48:57.than the monkeys should not have copyright, if the monkey had
:48:58. > :49:01.knowledge by watching a human and then press the shutter and they did
:49:02. > :49:05.so intentionally and deliberately, then they should have copyright.
:49:06. > :49:11.Knowledge and intention is key to the creative process and creativity
:49:12. > :49:17.gives copyright. Angela, many people are told will be outraged, saying
:49:18. > :49:22.did you just hear yourself?! -- many people at home. I had to check the
:49:23. > :49:27.date on the paper to see that it is not able the first! I abhor any
:49:28. > :49:31.cruelty to animals, we need to robustly legislate animal research,
:49:32. > :49:35.although it is a critical part of evolution in order to save people
:49:36. > :49:45.from disease and illness, but I think this is a spectacular own goal
:49:46. > :49:48.by Peta because all your potential good workers undermined by the fact
:49:49. > :49:50.that David took it upon himself to make this enterprising journey, did
:49:51. > :49:53.not hurt the monkeys in any way, lets, shot and created the image and
:49:54. > :49:56.these monkeys happened to take the photograph. Copyright means your
:49:57. > :50:01.image or your personal intellectual property is not compromised. I
:50:02. > :50:05.assume the macaques are still living happily, they are not thinking we
:50:06. > :50:09.could have gone to Harrods with the proceeds?! It is part of the bigger
:50:10. > :50:14.picture. The little man is being made an example to be part of the
:50:15. > :50:19.bigger picture. The bigger picture, inhumane hunting, they are real and
:50:20. > :50:23.important issues. With the greatest respect, this is a joke that you are
:50:24. > :50:33.doing this, your organisation should be hanging its head in shame. Strong
:50:34. > :50:41.words from Angela. You as star these monkeys suffering. The answer is
:50:42. > :50:46.yes. Their populations are dwindling, they decreased by about
:50:47. > :50:49.20% of the last 20 years. Their habitats are being destroyed at an
:50:50. > :50:55.alarming rate, they are poached for Bush meets, they are in dire need of
:50:56. > :51:07.help. They could certainly benefit from the proceeds of this copyright.
:51:08. > :51:10.This case is about the fundamental rights of these highly
:51:11. > :51:15.sophisticated, highly intelligent animals. They reckon site does not
:51:16. > :51:22.recognise themselves in the mirror. ALL TALK AT ONCE Emma has somebody
:51:23. > :51:24.with a religious perspective on this.
:51:25. > :51:27.I'm joined now by Nitin Mehta, founder of the Hindu
:51:28. > :51:37.To all animals deserve the same respect, the same rights as humans?
:51:38. > :51:44.Good morning. According to the Hindu perspective, animals feel pain and
:51:45. > :51:49.to have emotions, they feel pain and pleasure. As human beings it is only
:51:50. > :51:57.right that we are called them those rights. As Mahatma Gandhi said, is a
:51:58. > :52:02.superior species we have to be more compassionate to other forms of life
:52:03. > :52:06.that we live with on this planet. Where does that end? Let's say you
:52:07. > :52:10.were being attacked by an animal, you would do everything you could to
:52:11. > :52:19.defend yourself? Absolutely, that is how it should be. But we are hunting
:52:20. > :52:24.animals, we are doing experiments on them, tens of thousands are put in a
:52:25. > :52:31.shed. Some of those experiments, people have campaigned for those
:52:32. > :52:35.experiments to be more ethical, they have saved many lives, advances in
:52:36. > :52:40.cancer treatments have come through by experimenting on animals. I am
:52:41. > :52:43.not sure about that. There are lots of side effects. Animals have a
:52:44. > :52:50.different metabolism to human beings. As Mahatma Gandhi said, for
:52:51. > :52:56.him, the life of a lamb is as sacred as the life of a human being. As a
:52:57. > :53:02.superior disease we had to do better with the animal kingdom. This kind
:53:03. > :53:09.of violence that we are carrying out on animals... It is all very well
:53:10. > :53:13.saying this is a vegetarian, millions of people will eat meat and
:53:14. > :53:19.continue to eat meat, does that not make what you are doing slightly
:53:20. > :53:22.futile? At the time people thought colonialism or slavery would always
:53:23. > :53:28.be there, eventually it was abolished. Eventually I think there
:53:29. > :53:32.will be a time when not for the sake of the animals but the human race we
:53:33. > :53:38.have to really... Nitin Mehta, we had to leave it there. Not for the
:53:39. > :53:44.animals' say, but the humans' sake. If you had to save a life, would it
:53:45. > :53:48.be and animal life or a human one? Take off your Peta hat and speak
:53:49. > :53:54.personally. I don't know the specifics. I have no idea what I
:53:55. > :54:01.would do in a moment of panic. You would save an animal ahead of a
:54:02. > :54:06.human? In a moment of panic and crisis, I don't get any single one
:54:07. > :54:11.of us can predict. Is that your viewpoint? The bigger picture, there
:54:12. > :54:19.is a great ape Project which proposes that great apes like
:54:20. > :54:23.gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans and bonobos are so humanlike that
:54:24. > :54:29.they deserve basic legal protections such as the right to life,
:54:30. > :54:35.protection against suffering and freedom from incarceration. I think
:54:36. > :54:41.that is the way to go. I think we need to recognise that we humans are
:54:42. > :54:45.not unique in our capacity for feelings, emotions, language,
:54:46. > :54:50.sociability and so on. We need to extend the realm of life... Rights
:54:51. > :54:56.to other thinking, feeling creatures which feel pain and suffering the
:54:57. > :55:01.same as us. If we would not want to inflict suffering on the humans, why
:55:02. > :55:04.should we inflicted on others suffering... Nobody is suggesting
:55:05. > :55:09.that human life is so precious that we should be allowed to just
:55:10. > :55:12.liberally treat animals inhumanely. I was out cycling in the Lake
:55:13. > :55:16.District at the beginning of the week on holiday, I fell off my bike
:55:17. > :55:22.trying to swerve because a man was walking his dog, his instinctive
:55:23. > :55:26.reaction, he was calming the dogs down, I was lying face down and he
:55:27. > :55:31.suddenly said, are you all right? There is a disproportionate culture
:55:32. > :55:35.in this country that we see animal suffering has a right at the expense
:55:36. > :55:39.of humanity. Nobody wants animals to suffer that you cannot in anywhere
:55:40. > :55:47.compare a monkey taking its own picture with vivisection and it is
:55:48. > :55:51.disgraceful that the two R. I went out there to raise these
:55:52. > :55:58.issues, this is what conservation Sitak -- photography does. To be
:55:59. > :56:06.harangued by an animal rights organisation is a bit... That is
:56:07. > :56:16.what we all have time for. Emma has some comments. You can command to
:56:17. > :56:20.Facebooked life. Early in the programme we debated gender
:56:21. > :56:23.stereotypes, Nanette Newman starred in some washing up liquid outfits in
:56:24. > :56:29.the 80s. Let's remind you. Ferry's longer
:56:30. > :56:35.lasting Certs mean it can do all this and more, much more. On average
:56:36. > :56:40.50% more. And, of course, it is still as mild and gentle as ever. It
:56:41. > :56:45.is not just a little bit better, it is 50% better than the best of the
:56:46. > :56:50.rest. Nanette Newman, good morning. How do you feel about these new
:56:51. > :56:58.rules from the advertising Standards Authority? Perhaps your advert would
:56:59. > :57:00.not be made today? I think it is so ridiculous. They really
:57:01. > :57:03.underestimate us women. We are cleverer and more savvy. To be
:57:04. > :57:07.offended by somebody standing in a commercial and saying this product
:57:08. > :57:13.is better than anything else, whether a man, a woman or whatever,
:57:14. > :57:16.it is just a commercial. They are ridiculous that they will ban this.
:57:17. > :57:22.There are much more important things. I do not think because you
:57:23. > :57:26.stand there saying use this washing-up liquid or wash the floor
:57:27. > :57:30.with this that you are demeaning women. You might not be demeaning it
:57:31. > :57:35.but you might be influencing what a girl thinks her role could be.
:57:36. > :57:39.Advertising is very powerful, you admit that? About it is not that
:57:40. > :57:42.powerful and I do not know of any women who would feel they would be
:57:43. > :57:48.rushed back to the kitchen sink because of an advert. Women can do
:57:49. > :57:51.anything, we have got there, we are very intelligent, we can be
:57:52. > :58:03.politicians, we can be anything that we choose
:58:04. > :58:07.to be, bricklayers, wrestlers. I will be very happy to leave it on
:58:08. > :58:10.that note, but can you confirm that your hands are still soft? I don't
:58:11. > :58:15.know about that! Nanette Newman, Fairly. -- Fairy soft.
:58:16. > :58:17.Many thanks to all our guests and you at home
:58:18. > :58:20.Emma will be carrying on the conversation online.
:58:21. > :58:24.I'll be talking to Peter Tatchell about a lifetime of campaigning.
:58:25. > :58:25.Log on to facebook.com/bbcsundaymorninglive
:58:26. > :58:30.In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole
:58:31. > :58:35.Sunday Morning Live team, goodbye.