:00:00. > :00:11.On today's programme: High street chemist Boots is under
:00:12. > :00:13.pressure to cut the price of morning after pills.
:00:14. > :00:16.But should we make them easier to buy?
:00:17. > :00:20.The UK spends more than ?12 billion on foreign aid.
:00:21. > :00:25.In tough times here, is it time to slash that bill?
:00:26. > :00:30.And we talk to Stephen McGann, Dr Turner from Call The Midwife.
:00:31. > :00:37.This place has been at the forefront of so many developments in
:00:38. > :00:42.artificial limbs. It has been the best in its field since the First
:00:43. > :00:43.World War. This has been a very different job to any other job I
:00:44. > :00:47.have done. I love it. And Emma Barnett is here,
:00:48. > :00:51.ready to let you have your say. The story about the morning
:00:52. > :00:57.after pill has certainly got people going this week, so do send
:00:58. > :01:00.us your thoughts on that. Should it be easier to buy? That is
:01:01. > :01:02.the question. You can contact us by
:01:03. > :01:04.Facebook and Twitter. Don't forget to use
:01:05. > :01:06.the hashtag #bbcsml. Or text SML followed
:01:07. > :01:08.by your message to 60011. Texts are charged at your
:01:09. > :01:10.standard message rate. Or email us at
:01:11. > :01:14.sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk. However you choose to get in touch,
:01:15. > :01:17.please don't forget to include your name so I can get
:01:18. > :01:26.you involved in our discussions. And you may want to comment on the
:01:27. > :01:32.story of the Muslim man abused and threatened after announcing his
:01:33. > :01:36.same-sex wedding. I don't regret going public at all. Since our story
:01:37. > :01:40.came out, we have had plenty of people contacting me and Sean,
:01:41. > :01:45.people who are hidden, people who are scared and alone. They've said,
:01:46. > :01:46.we have seen your story, we have read your story, it is
:01:47. > :01:55.heart-warming. First, Boots the chemist has found
:01:56. > :01:58.itself in the middle Morning after pills, used to prevent
:01:59. > :02:02.unwanted pregnancies, are sold at the high street giant
:02:03. > :02:05.for around twice what some rival When challenged about the pricing
:02:06. > :02:11.policy by the British Pregnancy Advisory Service,
:02:12. > :02:13.Boots originally said it was avoiding incentivising
:02:14. > :02:18.inappropriate use. The company has since apologised
:02:19. > :02:20.for its "poor choice of words" and says it is looking
:02:21. > :02:24.for cheaper options. The pills are free from the NHS
:02:25. > :02:26.but the Pregnancy Advisory Service says some women need emergency
:02:27. > :02:30.contraception and cost is an issue. Joining us now to discuss this
:02:31. > :02:36.are Clare Murphy from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service,
:02:37. > :02:40.Ruth Rawlins from the Centre For Bioethical Reform
:02:41. > :02:45.UK, Anthony McCarthy from the Society For The Protection
:02:46. > :03:01.Of Unborn Children, and Afua Hirsch, As a result of this row, some High
:03:02. > :03:06.Street stores are selling cheaper versions of the pill. Surely that is
:03:07. > :03:09.available, women should have it for a cheaper price? We know that
:03:10. > :03:13.widespread use of the morning after pill does not reduce abortions and
:03:14. > :03:18.people are interested in reducing abortions. People don't know that
:03:19. > :03:21.the morning after pill may cause an early abortion. Women are not told
:03:22. > :03:25.about this and they were not really told about the increased risks of
:03:26. > :03:29.ectopic pregnancy until the Chief Medical Officer intervened. I think
:03:30. > :03:33.this is a very worrying development. I think women are not being cared
:03:34. > :03:37.for and they are being kept in the dark. I would really like to respond
:03:38. > :03:44.to that. Clinically that is nonsense. It is fine for you to have
:03:45. > :03:48.a moral objection to women accessing the morning after pill, although I
:03:49. > :03:54.think you are absolutely wrong, but it is really problematic when you
:03:55. > :03:59.start mixing up clinical facts with moral misinformation. What do you
:04:00. > :04:04.mean? The morning after pill is not an early abortion. That is nonsense.
:04:05. > :04:09.It works by delaying ovulation so that women don't get pregnant. In
:04:10. > :04:12.the first place. And on the ectopic pregnancy, the morning after pill
:04:13. > :04:16.reduces the risk of ectopic pregnancy by reducing the risk of
:04:17. > :04:21.pregnancy altogether. I think this is a moral issue insofar as we
:04:22. > :04:25.actually have a moral obligation to ensure that women have a second
:04:26. > :04:28.chance of avoiding an unwanted pregnancy. Let's talk about the
:04:29. > :04:33.broader point. Is it for the retailer to decide what the price
:04:34. > :04:36.should be? I think the retailer can absolutely decide what the price can
:04:37. > :04:39.be but I think people also have the right to understand the reasons for
:04:40. > :04:45.that retailer keeping the price high. Boots is obviously a company
:04:46. > :04:50.which has put women at the forefront of its marketing exercises. It very
:04:51. > :04:57.much seems to stand for female empowerment. People really responded
:04:58. > :05:01.quite furiously when they saw... Women don't need to go there. They
:05:02. > :05:05.don't. And I think women will be voting with their feet until this
:05:06. > :05:11.issue is resolved. So why not just let the women vote with their feet?
:05:12. > :05:14.We want women to be able to access an affordable product and Boots is a
:05:15. > :05:17.key player in this market. Most people live near one of their stores
:05:18. > :05:21.and it is important that they do the right thing on this. They initially
:05:22. > :05:25.said they didn't want to incentivise inappropriate use by reducing the
:05:26. > :05:29.price and they have since said sorry for their poor choice of words.
:05:30. > :05:33.Should a retailer be making moral judgments? In a letter it is also
:05:34. > :05:36.interesting to note that they also talked about the fact that some of
:05:37. > :05:41.their customers do not support this service of the morning after pill.
:05:42. > :05:45.It is not true to say that all women are wanting it on demand. Some of
:05:46. > :05:50.their customers are clearly not supporting the use of the morning
:05:51. > :05:55.after pill. They have got to balance the different opinions of their
:05:56. > :06:01.customers. I think it is important to point out, as Anthony said, it is
:06:02. > :06:10.not just the contraception side of it. It can also end the life of an
:06:11. > :06:14.already formed human being. The science of embryology tells us that
:06:15. > :06:18.life begins at conception. When that egg is fertilised, you have got a
:06:19. > :06:23.new human being and that is one of the secondary ways that this bill
:06:24. > :06:27.can also work. So if it can end the life of an already formed human
:06:28. > :06:33.being, at this early stage, I think this is very important information
:06:34. > :06:37.that women need to know. I don't know why some of the abortion lobby
:06:38. > :06:43.and Claire and BPAS want to hide this information. This is not a
:06:44. > :06:48.debate about abortion. The way the morning after pill usually works is
:06:49. > :06:52.by delaying ovulation. But it can work in other ways. The hormone it
:06:53. > :06:57.affects plays a role in ovulation and apparently it was for accepting
:06:58. > :07:09.a fertilised egg. What do you make of this? I am like to think that I
:07:10. > :07:12.am coming from this as the perspective of a normal woman. I
:07:13. > :07:16.considered whether I would say that I have taken the morning after pill
:07:17. > :07:20.and then I wondered why I was questioning it. At some point in
:07:21. > :07:23.their lives, many women need to take emergency contraception and there is
:07:24. > :07:27.no need to be ashamed about that. As women we want to have control over
:07:28. > :07:31.our lives and reproductive health. It is interesting that the debate
:07:32. > :07:41.has been so much about information. Women want information. The idea
:07:42. > :07:43.that retailers should restrict access to this is muddled thinking.
:07:44. > :07:45.Women are already worried about taking the morning after pill. They
:07:46. > :07:48.don't take it necessarily and they take it very seriously, and it would
:07:49. > :07:51.be as widely available as possible so women can make up their own
:07:52. > :07:54.minds. You are in good company because 300,000 people are provided
:07:55. > :07:59.with emergency contraception every year. Many people are doing it. Did
:08:00. > :08:04.the price put you off and did you regret it? If you need emergency
:08:05. > :08:09.contraception you will probably go to whatever lengths. I remember
:08:10. > :08:12.paying ?25 some years ago. It made it more difficult to take it and my
:08:13. > :08:17.worry is that the price at the moment in retailers like Boots, up
:08:18. > :08:20.who are charging more than they need to, is disproportionately affecting
:08:21. > :08:24.low income women. This is muddled thinking. If something is available
:08:25. > :08:27.and it is safe to be available on the shelf, then it should be as
:08:28. > :08:31.affordable and accessible as possible. If there is a need to
:08:32. > :08:35.restrict it for medical reasons and we should hear that and it should be
:08:36. > :08:38.the same across the board. This is a confusing situation that alienates
:08:39. > :08:40.women from having choice over their bodies. We have a medical expert
:08:41. > :08:44.with us. Benedict Lam is a pharmacist trained
:08:45. > :08:47.to prescribe emergency hormonal contraception to adult women
:08:48. > :08:54.and teenagers below the age of 16. Let me ask you this first, which has
:08:55. > :08:58.come up in the debate in the studio. Morning after pill, it may cause an
:08:59. > :09:04.abortion, as claimed by one of our panellists. What is the clinical
:09:05. > :09:06.view of that? In our view, the emergency hormonal contraception
:09:07. > :09:11.pill is not equivalent to an abortion pill. It does not actually
:09:12. > :09:18.cause an abortion. The main way that it works is by delaying ovulation
:09:19. > :09:22.and preventing fertilisation. That is the clinical view. It is around
:09:23. > :09:27.?6 to buy this pill in France and British women are paying up to ?28
:09:28. > :09:31.in this country. Do you think it is unethical that pharmacists have
:09:32. > :09:41.charged more for it as a deterrent? I think it is unfortunate that this
:09:42. > :09:51.has erupted in the public arena and Boots has got involved in a
:09:52. > :09:54.difficult conversation. I think that initially back in the 2000s when the
:09:55. > :10:01.tablet was first reclassified to be made available in pharmacies, there
:10:02. > :10:06.was a statement from the original manufacturer of the morning after
:10:07. > :10:13.pill, which did indicate the high price that was set was to ensure...
:10:14. > :10:17.To try to discourage women from using it regularly. So the high
:10:18. > :10:21.price was used originally as a deterrent. Have you seen it as a
:10:22. > :10:24.deterrent? Is there any evidence at a price point. The woman coming
:10:25. > :10:31.forward to get the morning after pill in your many consultations with
:10:32. > :10:34.women? -- is there any evidence that the price point stops women coming
:10:35. > :10:41.forward? I have worked with women for many years. Sometimes when I
:10:42. > :10:44.tell people the price they ask if there is a cheaper version. More
:10:45. > :10:51.vulnerable people ask me if we provided for free. In England, some
:10:52. > :10:54.community pharmacies provide this tablet for free under what we call a
:10:55. > :11:01.local patient group directions scheme. That is usually funded by
:11:02. > :11:04.local boroughs and councils. Thank you for that insight and the
:11:05. > :11:10.clinical definition of what this bill does. Anthony was shaking his
:11:11. > :11:13.head through that. You might not agree morally, but surely unwanted
:11:14. > :11:19.pregnancies, it is a good way of avoiding them? In fact what we find
:11:20. > :11:24.is that the morning after pill, which can have the abortion effect
:11:25. > :11:26.according to the manufacturers, that is a clinical opinion, the morning
:11:27. > :11:32.after pill does nothing to reduce abortion. Where they have been
:11:33. > :11:35.freely available, in a number of studies we have seen rises of
:11:36. > :11:40.sexually transmitted diseases, and no good effect on teen pregnancy.
:11:41. > :11:43.Even if you are focusing particularly on the pill, it is not
:11:44. > :11:50.doing what one would hope it would do, even if you thought it was an OK
:11:51. > :11:53.thing to do. It is giving women choice. You are talking about giving
:11:54. > :11:57.it to underage girls, for goodness' sake. That helps abusive
:11:58. > :12:01.environments and it encourages risk-taking. And there is a great
:12:02. > :12:05.lack of information. It prevents a 13-year-old from having a baby when
:12:06. > :12:11.she is effectively a baby herself. If you look at the Bristol case
:12:12. > :12:14.review in 2016... It doesn't encourage abuse. As a matter of fact
:12:15. > :12:18.there is evidence of people using morning after pills to cover up
:12:19. > :12:21.abuse. I think we should look for 13-year-olds not to be having sex,
:12:22. > :12:25.we should look for something much more positive, rather than shoving
:12:26. > :12:31.dangerous hormonal contraceptives like that at them, and putting them
:12:32. > :12:34.on the abortion track. All of this blights people's lives. I am not
:12:35. > :12:40.connected to the lobby on either side of this but it strikes me,
:12:41. > :12:44.listening to Anthony, that his group is against more sex and education
:12:45. > :12:48.for children in schools to teach them about healthy relationships so
:12:49. > :12:51.that they don't need to take emergency contraception. For me, you
:12:52. > :12:55.inform people but then if they need the medication, it should be
:12:56. > :13:00.available. Then we should inform them of the risks. It has got the
:13:01. > :13:03.panel going! And everybody at home as well. Barbara on Facebook says
:13:04. > :13:06.the pill should be more readily available. Accidents happen and it
:13:07. > :13:09.is not the role of the chemist to act as a guardian to people's
:13:10. > :13:26.morals. David on Facebook saying that rich women can
:13:27. > :13:29.be trusted to act responsibly but not the poor. Women don't take
:13:30. > :13:31.morning after pills for the fun of it. And a nice incentive to have
:13:32. > :13:33.unprotected sex? It should be ?10,000 per pill rising by ?10,000
:13:34. > :13:36.every time you need one. Helen saying that women need to take
:13:37. > :13:38.responsibility and not concede any babies they don't want to look
:13:39. > :13:40.after. The morning after pill is a chemical abortion. Stephanie on
:13:41. > :13:43.Twitter says when she was a student she was caught in this position. It
:13:44. > :13:46.is mortifying and expensive and we should not be hit with a double
:13:47. > :13:54.whammy for a minor indiscretion. The final word goes to Sarah. If men had
:13:55. > :14:01.to take emergency contraception, the price would plummet. I know you all
:14:02. > :14:05.want to say something but we are out of time. Thank you.
:14:06. > :14:08.The McGann brothers from Liverpool have become an acting
:14:09. > :14:11.The youngest of the fab four is Stephen McGann.
:14:12. > :14:13.He plays the over-worked and over-stressed Dr Turner in the BBC's
:14:14. > :14:16.But he found himself in a real-life medical drama
:14:17. > :14:20.when his wife Heidi nearly died after a serious infection.
:14:21. > :14:23.He's just written a book about his life and career and
:14:24. > :14:46.# Just how wonderful you are # And I am so in love with you.
:14:47. > :14:51.I would like him in now. We always talk about what an actor brings to
:14:52. > :14:56.roll. We really talk about what the role leaves in terms of traces in
:14:57. > :15:01.the actor. In Doctor Turner in Call The Midwife, what do you come away
:15:02. > :15:06.with playing him? Does it change in anyway? It does. This has been a
:15:07. > :15:11.very different job to any I have done. I love it. This place has been
:15:12. > :15:15.at the forefront of so many developments in artificial limbs. It
:15:16. > :15:20.has been the best in its field since the First World War. The passions
:15:21. > :15:25.that fired the early years of the NHS service and here we are in the
:15:26. > :15:30.NHS in crisis, thinking, what should we do? It is all about bean
:15:31. > :15:35.counting. I sure like Call The Midwife, with characters like his,
:15:36. > :15:40.it is very important. It is not so long ago and it takes you back into
:15:41. > :15:45.the not so distant past. We will not tell you what to do, but here are
:15:46. > :15:50.some of the psychological ideas that informed while we made this large
:15:51. > :15:53.form of cradle to grave social care. That stays with me and that has been
:15:54. > :15:59.a great gift. She wanted to make sure you were all
:16:00. > :16:04.right. All right? How could anyone not be all right after seeing that?
:16:05. > :16:10.It is quite hard to look at, I give you that. They say that the changes
:16:11. > :16:14.the people around you but not you as an individual. When it is four
:16:15. > :16:22.Brothers experiencing fame at different levels at different times,
:16:23. > :16:26.how did that affect the dynamic in the family? Initially it was very
:16:27. > :16:34.difficult. It is like the $64,000 question. Was there a rivalry? Had
:16:35. > :16:39.to do not be? What is the experience like, being with all your brothers,
:16:40. > :16:56.working together? It was brilliant, we were also co-producers. God
:16:57. > :16:59.forgive us. He is coming. But it was a really interesting watershed
:17:00. > :17:04.moment. At that point, the penny dropped for all of us. Although we
:17:05. > :17:08.would work together and do lots of other things at various times over
:17:09. > :17:14.the years, we were not really a family business. Our destiny was not
:17:15. > :17:19.together. We did not feel it. By the end of that programme, we had
:17:20. > :17:22.scratched that itch, we felt we had finished a certain thing. We were
:17:23. > :17:27.different people who wanted to do different things. Some people would
:17:28. > :17:30.look at you and your brothers and see the success you have made of
:17:31. > :17:36.your lives and not know of the anxiety that you went through, just
:17:37. > :17:42.to step onto a stage. When I began acting at 19, I had a dark secret
:17:43. > :17:49.inside. I was suffering inside from an anxiety problem. I had a mental
:17:50. > :17:53.problem. I had agoraphobia, feed of public praises. Then I get a break
:17:54. > :18:01.in acting, they give me a chance to be in a musical, and it looked
:18:02. > :18:04.fantastic, but I had this inner problem. Described to me what the
:18:05. > :18:08.first few minutes felt like when you walked on stage for the first time?
:18:09. > :18:14.I was still trying to recover from agoraphobia. This was the opening
:18:15. > :18:19.night of this musical. It was at the Astoria theatre in London's West
:18:20. > :18:25.End. I knew I could peep through the stage and see the critic from the
:18:26. > :18:30.Guardian, members of Spandau Ballet, Duran Duran. I could see people who
:18:31. > :18:35.had come to be entertained and I was the entertainment. When I stepped
:18:36. > :18:40.out, everything in my mind was seeing, run home, go away. The idea
:18:41. > :18:46.of going onto a West End stage with that condition, it horrible. It is a
:18:47. > :18:50.feed of public places. The idea of walking in front of strange eyes, it
:18:51. > :18:55.gives you nightmares. I walked out and I can see my foot steps on the
:18:56. > :19:01.wood, as I put one foot after another. There is this other thing
:19:02. > :19:05.behind the screaming, the real me, I gentler voice going, you will be all
:19:06. > :19:10.right. If I did not open my mouth then and start, all of this would
:19:11. > :19:15.not be here. It was that moment and the minute I could open my mouth, I
:19:16. > :19:18.knew I would be OK. Did that give you better coping mechanisms when
:19:19. > :19:23.you were faced with the greatest trial of your life, facing the fact
:19:24. > :19:30.that you may lose your wife? Heidi was very ill. I was going to be a
:19:31. > :19:36.widower with a one-year-old child. I cried like a baby. Did I face it
:19:37. > :19:43.strongly, did I face it with a stiff upper lip? No, I cried and sobbed
:19:44. > :19:47.until I stopped. I stopped and she recovered. After that, things have
:19:48. > :19:51.never been quite the same for either of us. To confront that together, I
:19:52. > :19:58.find a privilege to have survived that. We make a lot more of our life
:19:59. > :20:06.now. We really do. It is not just sentiment. Being raised a Catholic
:20:07. > :20:10.but describing yourself as an agnostic, in those moments with
:20:11. > :20:16.Heidi, did your Catholicism, slamming -- come flooding back?
:20:17. > :20:21.Flooding back. In the darkness, the whole shebang. If you do this for
:20:22. > :20:31.me, Lord, I promise you, I will do this. It was me talking to fate and
:20:32. > :20:35.the divine and everything. All the other things were stripped away.
:20:36. > :20:43.Whatever that is, does it mean I am deeply... ? I do not know. I am
:20:44. > :20:46.still agnostic. When we are stripped away, life becomes really
:20:47. > :20:51.metaphysical. The really important things are left on the table and
:20:52. > :20:52.everything else is thrown away. I am grateful to have experienced that.
:20:53. > :20:55.Thank you so much. My pleasure. Still to come on Sunday Morning
:20:56. > :21:16.Live: Is singing good for the soul? I think that moving and singing at
:21:17. > :21:27.the same time fires all these brilliant brain neurons.
:21:28. > :21:30.The UK spends more than ?12 billion on foreign aid,
:21:31. > :21:35.which goes towards tackling extreme poverty, and other areas.
:21:36. > :21:39.But the National Audit Office has expressed concerns about the system
:21:40. > :21:41.for monitoring aid spending and says there is a danger some
:21:42. > :21:45.So are we spending too much on foreign aid
:21:46. > :21:53.and could the money be used better here?
:21:54. > :21:56.Joining us now are Nick Ferrari, a journalist, Amy Dodd from UK Aid,
:21:57. > :22:00.a journalist and researcher, and Katherine Dixon, a former
:22:01. > :22:11.Britain is committed to spending over ?12 million from its national
:22:12. > :22:16.income on foreign aid. It puts us in the top five. We should be proud of
:22:17. > :22:20.that, chewed and we? No, it is nonsense. There are many reasons why
:22:21. > :22:26.this should not be done, not least the people who are recipients of the
:22:27. > :22:30.cash. There is no audit trail. David Cameron once said that Afghanistan
:22:31. > :22:35.was famously corrupt and we happily give them millions of pounds. NHS
:22:36. > :22:39.demand is going up. Some of the viewers will not be able to get
:22:40. > :22:44.drugs that could prolong the life or is the suffering because we have not
:22:45. > :22:46.got enough cash. This winter, 30,000 elderly people died because they
:22:47. > :23:02.cannot turn up the gas and we are sending
:23:03. > :23:04.billions of pounds. Would you honestly look after next's children
:23:05. > :23:07.if you could not look after your own? That is what we stupidly do.
:23:08. > :23:10.Some of what you're saying is not true. We have a good sense of where
:23:11. > :23:12.the aid budget goes. We could make it more effective and we should be
:23:13. > :23:15.focused on that. The British people care about people overseas and we
:23:16. > :23:18.should contribute to others. We work in some of the most challenging
:23:19. > :23:21.environments. Some of these countries are really corrupt. That
:23:22. > :23:28.is true of some but not others. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:23:29. > :23:34.Let her speak. We do not just hand over money to governments and let's
:23:35. > :23:38.see what happens. We have lots of procedures in place. In places where
:23:39. > :23:42.there are concerns about corruption, or the regime, we work in different
:23:43. > :23:47.ways, generally not directly with the government. Still no answers. We
:23:48. > :23:52.will come back to that debate in a moment. You grow up in Nepal and you
:23:53. > :23:58.have seen the needs of developing countries, Abishek Parajuli. What is
:23:59. > :24:04.your view? When I grew up, I see a need for the aid. The current system
:24:05. > :24:08.is not working. My take on it is it actually short-circuits a critical
:24:09. > :24:12.accountability mechanism. Humans are designed to care more about things
:24:13. > :24:16.we pay for than things we get for free. When the UK Government is the
:24:17. > :24:21.one spending on essential services in these countries, the citizens do
:24:22. > :24:24.not demand as much from it. The politicians care more about what the
:24:25. > :24:29.British politicians are telling them, rather than their own
:24:30. > :24:33.citizens. The accountability mechanism has been short-circuited.
:24:34. > :24:38.The answer is not to cut all aid. You need to better design the system
:24:39. > :24:43.so it works with human incentives. Rather than against it. Are you
:24:44. > :24:50.saying that per people need to pay for themselves? No. There is a
:24:51. > :24:55.startling statistic in India. Only about 2% of Indians paying them tax.
:24:56. > :25:01.That is staggering. If the British government wants a sustainable aid
:25:02. > :25:07.project, it needs to expand the tax net. More people in these countries
:25:08. > :25:12.need to pay taxes. The poorest people cannot pay. Direct trashed --
:25:13. > :25:15.direct cash transfers will help. Instead of giving the money to the
:25:16. > :25:21.politicians who will take it elsewhere, you want to give it to
:25:22. > :25:26.the people, who will pay taxes. Is it about us feeling better for --
:25:27. > :25:32.about ourselves because we are giving money or is it about helping
:25:33. > :25:37.real people? It is a bit of both. Aid and defence are two sides of the
:25:38. > :25:42.same coin. Lots of countries in the world suffer from violent conflict,
:25:43. > :25:47.poverty, corruption and inequality. Corruption is important, it is the
:25:48. > :25:51.driver of public frustration that results in violent extremism. When
:25:52. > :25:57.we look at the budget for aid, we need to look at the defence budget.
:25:58. > :26:04.Prevention and cure. We spend lots of time debating the 0.7%, but what
:26:05. > :26:08.about the 2% that goes on the consequences of instability? You cut
:26:09. > :26:13.the aid budget, you make people per year, they are ripe for the taking
:26:14. > :26:17.by terrorist groups, increased migration, more pressure on the NHS?
:26:18. > :26:29.It has been such a stunning success. The argument is it would be worse.
:26:30. > :26:32.Hundreds of thousands of people are on the move. If there is an
:26:33. > :26:35.Ethiopian crisis, if we can save the lives of children by buying malaria
:26:36. > :26:40.nets, I am for that. It is about other projects, frivolous projects.
:26:41. > :26:42.When you're dealing with humanitarian situations, you cannot
:26:43. > :26:46.deal with them unless the infrastructure is already in the
:26:47. > :26:50.country. If the health service does not work because you have not
:26:51. > :26:56.invested in making sure it is not corrupt and can function, how do you
:26:57. > :27:01.deal with the Ebola crisis? Tell that to viewers who have put in
:27:02. > :27:04.taxes and they cannot pay for the elderly care. It is simply wrong.
:27:05. > :27:06.Jamil Danish is a journalist from Afghanistan who worked
:27:07. > :27:09.as an advisor to the government until 2015, when he was forced
:27:10. > :27:21.You grew up in Afghanistan. What difference did you see aid making on
:27:22. > :27:27.the ground? Thank you for having me. To start, I am a recipient of the
:27:28. > :27:35.aid money myself. A result of what has changed my life from the very
:27:36. > :27:42.beginning. When I was seven years old, my mother would send me to
:27:43. > :27:46.stand at the Q of the bakeries at three o'clock in the morning to get
:27:47. > :27:56.bread. I was able to get that at nine o'clock. Five or six hours, I
:27:57. > :28:01.had to wait. I was seven years old. That continued for ten years. In
:28:02. > :28:08.2001, Afghanistan is a good example of how the foreign aid is spent.
:28:09. > :28:13.Although it was mentioned that it was fantastically corrupt, we should
:28:14. > :28:21.expect that. Afghanistan has been in continuous conflict for 40 years.
:28:22. > :28:26.After 2001, prior to 2001, you could imagine that Afghanistan was a
:28:27. > :28:32.failed state ruled by terrorists and insurgents. We had no economic
:28:33. > :28:39.infrastructure, no female participation, no schools for women.
:28:40. > :28:48.90% of the population were living below the poverty line. In 2001,
:28:49. > :28:53.when the new period started, the aid money brought changes to the
:28:54. > :28:58.country. Those were some of the changes that aid made. You're
:28:59. > :29:01.talking from a personal perspective. Part of your job involved looking
:29:02. > :29:05.after the contracts that awarded aid money. I know it was challenging to
:29:06. > :29:10.stop it getting into the wrong hands. People would be competing for
:29:11. > :29:15.that money. What needs to be improved to stop war lords or people
:29:16. > :29:20.who should not be getting those contracts getting them? As I
:29:21. > :29:22.mentioned in the discussion earlier, there are alternative mechanisms to
:29:23. > :29:28.avoid that and reduce the corruption. Obviously you have got
:29:29. > :29:34.three or four macro political generations coming together. You
:29:35. > :29:39.have people from the Communist regime working for the government,
:29:40. > :29:43.from the Mujahideen time, the Taliban, and now the new political
:29:44. > :29:49.generation. You would have challenges in all affairs of how the
:29:50. > :29:55.money is spent. The ministry where I live, we had a very good programme.
:29:56. > :30:01.It is still running. It is a UK charity -- it is a UK aid programme.
:30:02. > :30:07.It is a cultural rural development facility. You can go online and you
:30:08. > :30:11.can see that it changes. The main purpose of the programme is how to
:30:12. > :30:17.reduce and eliminate the division around the country.
:30:18. > :30:24.It started in three provinces in 2015 and now it is in 30 provinces.
:30:25. > :30:29.An example of something that has worked and eight has been deployed
:30:30. > :30:35.properly? It is so successful. Thank you. An example of receiving aid and
:30:36. > :30:39.also the challenges. And you were shaking your head throughout that.
:30:40. > :30:43.When Britain is involved in a military conflict, a country like
:30:44. > :30:48.Afghanistan, don't we have a moral duty to help them until they are
:30:49. > :30:50.back on their feet? Unfortunately we would still be paying for the
:30:51. > :30:55.Germans and Japanese and goodness knows what else. There comes a point
:30:56. > :30:58.when of course you have got to provide for those people. But
:30:59. > :31:05.programmes like that are not what I am getting at. It is cattle with
:31:06. > :31:09.flatulence in Colombia, anti-corruption programmes in Kenya,
:31:10. > :31:14.contraception in Malawi. Why? When our own citizens need the cash?
:31:15. > :31:19.Providing young girls with access to information and contraception and
:31:20. > :31:23.smart family planning. It makes a difference. You are saying that we
:31:24. > :31:29.should not be trying to address gender inequalities in countries
:31:30. > :31:34.where women are... Shall we get it right here first? It is a valid
:31:35. > :31:40.point. You are happy to spend on starving children in Ethiopia in the
:31:41. > :31:43.80s? I have always said that. The problem with corruption is actually
:31:44. > :31:47.a little more complicated. Some people argue that even if there are
:31:48. > :31:51.leaks in the pipeline of aid, at least the people in the bottom are
:31:52. > :31:54.getting something. But that is not actually the model that is
:31:55. > :31:58.operating. What happens is when you put to much money in the leaking
:31:59. > :32:04.pipeline, the league gets bigger. This is not me speaking. The
:32:05. > :32:06.committee puts forward to look at the Afghanistan programme, the
:32:07. > :32:11.corruption is an existential threat and it has got worse since 2001.
:32:12. > :32:14.Unless we have the correct incentives in place, if you just
:32:15. > :32:19.funnel more money into the pipeline, the leaking gets worse. The point
:32:20. > :32:24.here is that corruption is not a reason not to give aid. But we
:32:25. > :32:29.shouldn't ignore it either. The poorest countries in the world
:32:30. > :32:32.suffer the most from corruption. The point is that the poorest people in
:32:33. > :32:38.corrupt countries are really poor because the wealthy elite have all
:32:39. > :32:42.the money. The task of delivering aid is much more complex, as we have
:32:43. > :32:47.alluded to, but it doesn't mean we should stop it. We need to be much
:32:48. > :32:51.smarter about the way we do it. And the viewers? Lots of you getting in
:32:52. > :32:54.touch. Jennifer says very surprised you need to ask considering there
:32:55. > :32:58.are nurses in this country using food banks. Alan says we should
:32:59. > :33:01.double the eight we give. We are stinking rich country that does
:33:02. > :33:07.little to help others. Doreen says I am not sure that foreign aid goes to
:33:08. > :33:11.those that the most. The whole thing is badly managed. Mavis adds that
:33:12. > :33:14.any country who can afford to spend money on armaments and nuclear
:33:15. > :33:19.warheads and space rocket should not be getting aid from the UK. John
:33:20. > :33:23.says stop all foreign aid now. We come first, not corrupt overseas
:33:24. > :33:27.governments. And Joe says keep the budget but spend it more wisely.
:33:28. > :33:31.Transparent expenditure, playing stipulations and conditions that the
:33:32. > :33:36.money can only be spent on certain things. But that work if we spent it
:33:37. > :33:47.more rise late? Mavis has got it right! We are spending money to
:33:48. > :33:49.countries with their own space programmes. It is insane. India will
:33:50. > :33:52.have a better economy than ours in half an hour. We're not spending it
:33:53. > :33:54.on the space programmes but the problem is that countries that put
:33:55. > :33:57.so much money into defence are starving their health sector and
:33:58. > :34:01.these are the poorest people in the world. I am not in charge of it.
:34:02. > :34:06.Nobody is saying it is your fault and I get that we are struggling in
:34:07. > :34:09.the UK. People are difficult situation. At that does not preclude
:34:10. > :34:13.us from helping other people. The aid budget is a small proportion of
:34:14. > :34:17.what we do. But growing up in a country like the UK I got free
:34:18. > :34:20.health care and education and I have much more opportunity than I would
:34:21. > :34:24.have as a young girl in other countries. We need to remember that.
:34:25. > :34:27.We are not handing money over to corrupt politicians. We are doing
:34:28. > :34:29.what Catherine is talking about, helping people. That is all we have
:34:30. > :34:35.got time for. Thank you. Jahed Choudhury was
:34:36. > :34:38.delighted to tell his local paper about his marriage
:34:39. > :34:40.to his partner Sean. But Jahed is a Muslim
:34:41. > :34:42.and his announcement led Despite that Jahed and Sean are both
:34:43. > :34:57.determined to share their story, When Jahed married his partner
:34:58. > :35:00.Shaun, it really was a day to remember. It is a bit of a cliche
:35:01. > :35:04.but it was the best day of my life and I would not change it for the
:35:05. > :35:09.world. But among the joy there was sadness as well. I was sad that some
:35:10. > :35:14.of my family didn't come. For them, what we were doing was shameful.
:35:15. > :35:18.From an early age, Jahed has always struggled to reconcile his sexuality
:35:19. > :35:22.with his religious identity as a Muslim. What kind of upbringing did
:35:23. > :35:27.you have at home? It was really strict. We kept every Ramadan. My
:35:28. > :35:33.mother pray five times a day. We went to the mask. What was expected
:35:34. > :35:38.of you growing up? To marry a nice Muslim women. But that was never to
:35:39. > :35:41.be. Even when he started school, Jahed was singled out as different.
:35:42. > :35:49.Some people suspected I was gay because of the way I walked and
:35:50. > :35:54.dressed. That was when I first got bullied. I was called fag and
:35:55. > :36:00.somebody spat on my face. Have you resulted in your head, being Muslim
:36:01. > :36:06.and gay? Having that battle in my head, it seriously ruined my
:36:07. > :36:14.childhood. How did the community around here deal with you being gay?
:36:15. > :36:19.The mosque, the general community? I still get bullied. Even being right
:36:20. > :36:25.here, right now, I am anxious and wary because I know at any time
:36:26. > :36:27.someone could attack me. So tortured was Jahed that he ended up in
:36:28. > :36:34.hospital after trying to take his own life. This is the very park I
:36:35. > :36:39.came to when I took an overdose. I discharged myself at five o'clock. I
:36:40. > :36:47.came here and cried on this very bench. What state of mind were you
:36:48. > :36:51.in? I just felt so alone in the world and I didn't want to be here
:36:52. > :36:56.any more. It was the lowest point in my life. I wanted the fear, the
:36:57. > :37:02.loneliness, the battle to end. I just wanted it to end really. Is it
:37:03. > :37:06.too much for you? Sorry. But then came an unexpected turning point. I
:37:07. > :37:11.was screaming for someone to come and help me and I looked up and I
:37:12. > :37:17.started praying to my God. I said, please, just show me a sign, and
:37:18. > :37:20.that was the moment when Sean came. He was crossing the bridge and he
:37:21. > :37:24.came and sat down next to me, where you are sitting. He held my hand and
:37:25. > :37:30.he said it is OK. You can talk to me. I am not here to judge. That
:37:31. > :37:36.chance encounter on a park bench eventually led to Jahed and Sean
:37:37. > :37:41.making the ultimate commitment to one another. It is my privilege and
:37:42. > :37:46.my pleasure to be able to declare you husband and husband.
:37:47. > :37:50.Congratulations. One month later, the couple still treasure the
:37:51. > :37:54.memories of that day. Beautiful! Was it important for you to have Islamic
:37:55. > :37:58.clothing? It was really important. You know how girls dream of their
:37:59. > :38:03.wedding dress? I always dreamt of wearing something like this since I
:38:04. > :38:08.was little. I just love the colour, the red and gold. What are your main
:38:09. > :38:14.memories of the day? The registry office. Don't get me started! I
:38:15. > :38:17.mixed my words up. You are meant to say lawful wedded husband but he
:38:18. > :38:24.said awful! I am not that awful! Everybody started laughing. I was
:38:25. > :38:28.just so nervous. It came out the wrong way. As well as keeping up
:38:29. > :38:34.cultural traditions, Jahed still practices his faith. I still pray. I
:38:35. > :38:39.still keep Ramadan. I still read the Koran, to this day. I will never
:38:40. > :38:42.change my religion. It will come first. Jahed and Sean decided to
:38:43. > :38:46.tell their story to a local newspaper to encourage others who
:38:47. > :38:50.might be struggling with their faith and sexuality. But they were not
:38:51. > :38:55.prepared for some of the shopping online reactions. We have had loads
:38:56. > :39:01.of things. Death threats, people threatening us. It is shocking. Do
:39:02. > :39:05.you regret growing public? No, I don't regret going public at all.
:39:06. > :39:10.Since our story came out, we have had plenty of people contacting me
:39:11. > :39:16.and Sean. Gay Muslims, maybe other religious people out there, people
:39:17. > :39:19.who are hidden. People who are scared, alone. Going through the
:39:20. > :39:23.same experience. They have said, we have seen your story, we read the
:39:24. > :39:26.story, it was heart-warming and heartfelt and what you guys have
:39:27. > :39:34.done is very brave and I want to be brave like you guys. I was really
:39:35. > :39:41.lucky that my mum and my sister came to our wedding but it was a shame
:39:42. > :39:45.that the Muslim community were not supportive of some of my family
:39:46. > :39:50.members didn't show up. I just hope for the future that people like us,
:39:51. > :39:53.gay people, especially if they are religious, get more support from the
:39:54. > :40:04.Muslim community and more support from their family, and encourage
:40:05. > :40:09.weddings like this to happen. Jahed and Sean, happy together.
:40:10. > :40:12.For details of organisations that can provide help and support
:40:13. > :40:15.if you've faced similar problems, visit bbc.co.uk/actionline.
:40:16. > :40:19.Now onto our final discussion this week.
:40:20. > :40:25.Amanda Spielman, Ofsted Chief Inspector, has expressed concern
:40:26. > :40:27.about potential plans to allow new faith schools to base 100%
:40:28. > :40:32.She believes it could lead to segregation and has called
:40:33. > :40:36.The government says that it's consulting on the issue.
:40:37. > :40:39.So should faith schools be more open to people
:40:40. > :40:46.Or is the very point of a faith school to be able to teach as many
:40:47. > :40:48.children of their religion as possible?
:40:49. > :40:52.Joining me now are Dan Hitchens, a Catholic journalist,
:40:53. > :40:56.Chris Sloggett, a former teacher from the National Secular Society,
:40:57. > :41:05.Imam Asad Zaman, a private tutor, and rejoining us is Afua Hirsch.
:41:06. > :41:11.Dan, at a time when bringing communities together appears to be a
:41:12. > :41:14.really important thing, surely encouraging schools to be more
:41:15. > :41:18.diverse is the thing that we should be doing. If we want to support
:41:19. > :41:21.integration, the big thing we have got to do is look at which
:41:22. > :41:26.institutions are doing it well. Catholic schools, to take the
:41:27. > :41:28.example I know best, do a lot for integration. If you look at the
:41:29. > :41:35.number of ethnic minority pupils, it is well above the national average.
:41:36. > :41:38.19% are from the poorest areas of the country, where is the national
:41:39. > :41:42.average is something like 14%. These are already schools that are making
:41:43. > :41:47.diversity and integration work. There is a bigger point here, which
:41:48. > :41:50.is that we can assume that religious communities in themselves are
:41:51. > :41:54.divisive. But it is often faith communities who do most to build
:41:55. > :42:00.bonds between people. After the Grenfell Tower fire, it was the
:42:01. > :42:03.local churches and mosques who provided material help for people,
:42:04. > :42:11.who host meetings between people involved, provide counselling. If we
:42:12. > :42:14.want this great question, how can we live together harmoniously and in a
:42:15. > :42:17.great society, the first place we should be looking is religious
:42:18. > :42:21.institutions like faith schools and think they are doing it well, so
:42:22. > :42:26.let's encourage them and not put up more barriers. Are they doing it
:42:27. > :42:29.well? I would like to contradict that with others. I don't want to
:42:30. > :42:33.throw in loads of statistics that there is evidence that Catholic
:42:34. > :42:38.schools and other faith schools are more segregated by class and race as
:42:39. > :42:42.well as faith than other schools in the same areas. They take a lower
:42:43. > :42:46.proportion of children on free school meals than comparable schools
:42:47. > :42:50.in the area. On the one hand, if we want to promote integration as a
:42:51. > :42:55.society, and our politicians frequently tell us we do, you can't
:42:56. > :42:59.logically have that and segregate children by faith. More worrying for
:43:00. > :43:03.me, there is a lot of evidence that schools which are saying they
:43:04. > :43:06.segregate children by faith actually segregate children by social
:43:07. > :43:10.background and by race. Some parents are using faith schools as a
:43:11. > :43:17.proximity pulls aggregating children by ethnicity as well. -- a proximity
:43:18. > :43:22.for segregating children by ethnicity. That is not what we want
:43:23. > :43:26.to have. If children at the school are of one faith doesn't that make
:43:27. > :43:31.it difficult for them to integrate and learn about other faiths? Unless
:43:32. > :43:36.you're talking about boarding school, which is very rare, children
:43:37. > :43:41.are just in school for six hours but after that they are mixing with
:43:42. > :43:45.wider communities. Really? You go to clubs with your school colleagues.
:43:46. > :43:49.You don't mix, that is natural. Outside of school they will have
:43:50. > :43:53.neighbours, they will go to certain clubs where they will be taking part
:43:54. > :43:58.in football or table tennis, whatever. What if you are in a
:43:59. > :44:04.segregated area anyway and to go to a segregated school? Within the
:44:05. > :44:11.ethos of the school they need to make sure that there is a lot of
:44:12. > :44:15.integrate action -- interaction with other schools and clubs. They need
:44:16. > :44:17.to make sure that all children of all faiths are interacting with each
:44:18. > :44:23.other and develop intolerance for each other where they accept those
:44:24. > :44:26.beliefs. Did you go to a Church of England school? Wasn't it a good
:44:27. > :44:31.education, diverse, meeting lots of people? I did but personally I would
:44:32. > :44:36.have preferred to go to a faith school because I wanted to know more
:44:37. > :44:42.about my faith. Within our society, parents. It is their responsibility
:44:43. > :44:46.to impart faith to children. It is the state's responsibility to
:44:47. > :44:51.facilitate parents to provide that kind of environment. This is
:44:52. > :44:53.parental choice and if we are for parental choice, then we have got to
:44:54. > :45:01.be for diversity within education. Younus clock I will contradict that.
:45:02. > :45:06.If you're talking about parental choice, you should see some of the
:45:07. > :45:10.casework we have at the secular society. We have plenty of parents
:45:11. > :45:14.who would like to send their children to non-faith schools and
:45:15. > :45:19.they cannot because they would have to send them on an unrealistic
:45:20. > :45:23.commute to do so. It is not the state's responsibility to provide
:45:24. > :45:26.the education that the parents want. Bringing up children is a
:45:27. > :45:33.partnership between parents and schools. If you send your children
:45:34. > :45:39.to a state school, you are trusting your -- the state to bring up your
:45:40. > :45:43.child during school hours. The state has a certain expectation. A secular
:45:44. > :45:47.education, where all ideas are up for grabs and on the table and we
:45:48. > :45:53.can debate religion in a fair and open way, that is the right way to
:45:54. > :45:57.go. Emma has a very interesting guests.
:45:58. > :45:59.Arshat Ali is a mother of five and a Muslim.
:46:00. > :46:02.She chose to send her children to a Catholic faith
:46:03. > :46:11.Why did you decide to go to a catholic school and not a Muslim
:46:12. > :46:15.one? Hello. I think it is why not, rather than why. When you make a
:46:16. > :46:20.choice for your children as a parent, you want the best for your
:46:21. > :46:25.children. Every parent does. I grew up in a diverse community. I grew up
:46:26. > :46:29.with lots of different cultures and religions around me. When making the
:46:30. > :46:35.decision for my child, I looked at the ethos of the Catholic school,
:46:36. > :46:40.and the fact that my child would be learning something other than his
:46:41. > :46:44.own religion, and that is why I sent him there. Are your children a
:46:45. > :46:55.minority as Muslims in a Catholic school? No. The children are 98%
:46:56. > :46:59.Muslim. Lots of the children are from Muslim backgrounds and
:47:00. > :47:02.families. I do not know the reasoning why parents send their
:47:03. > :47:07.children there. I wanted my children to mix and not be segregated, and to
:47:08. > :47:15.integrate and learn about other religions. Hang on, if they are 98%
:47:16. > :47:20.Muslim, they are not really mixing with other religions or backgrounds?
:47:21. > :47:24.There are Catholic teachers and children there. They would get more
:47:25. > :47:27.diversity in that school than in the local school. If you're concerned
:47:28. > :47:33.about diversity and you did not want to send them to a Muslim school,
:47:34. > :47:38.where there were only Muslim people, can you understand why other parents
:47:39. > :47:42.do not like faith schools? I do not understand the question. If you want
:47:43. > :47:49.your children to mix with people who are different, can you understand
:47:50. > :47:51.why other teachers, parents and inspectors are uncomfortable with
:47:52. > :47:57.faith schools? I can understand, but as a parent, it is your choice. --
:47:58. > :48:06.comfortable sending my children to a Catholic school. They learn religion
:48:07. > :48:10.at home. When they go to school, they learn about Catholicism. It
:48:11. > :48:14.brought it home for me when my son went to secondary school and he was
:48:15. > :48:18.doing religious studies and he was asked, what did Jesus say on the
:48:19. > :48:23.cross, and the knew and he came home and they were so proud of himself.
:48:24. > :48:27.That was because of the education he had. We did he have known that if he
:48:28. > :48:31.had gone to another school? I do not know. My four macro children went to
:48:32. > :48:35.a catholic school and did really well. I have another child starting
:48:36. > :48:40.in September and I have made the decision to send her to the same
:48:41. > :48:43.school. A very unique experience.
:48:44. > :48:49.Fascinating, the complete opposite to your approach and your view. It
:48:50. > :48:59.needs to be said that within Islamic schools and catholic jihadists --
:49:00. > :49:03.catholic schools as well, all children have to follow the national
:49:04. > :49:06.curriculum. They are being prepared for wider society. They are being
:49:07. > :49:13.taught about the different faiths around them. Would they know what
:49:14. > :49:18.Jesus said on the cross? Why not? I can tell you the actual words that
:49:19. > :49:24.Jesus said on the cross, my lord, my lord, why has now forsaken me? I
:49:25. > :49:28.know the words he spoke as a Muslim because I am interested in that. You
:49:29. > :49:40.went to a Church of England school. Remember. In this discussion, we are
:49:41. > :49:46.defending to faith, as if it is a good idea. It is a valid position to
:49:47. > :49:52.say that faith is not a good thing. There are some very segregated areas
:49:53. > :49:57.in this country. If you are a state school or a faith school in that
:49:58. > :50:01.area, it will be one faith. The government policy is lifting the cap
:50:02. > :50:05.and becoming faith schools to become even more segregated. It is
:50:06. > :50:10.worsening the problem. The point on lifting the cap, the whole point of
:50:11. > :50:13.Muslim parents sending their children to an Islamic school is
:50:14. > :50:18.that they are immersed within that Islamic culture and ethos. If you
:50:19. > :50:25.reduce that, you will dilate and undermined that ethos.
:50:26. > :50:30.Emma. I was brought up in a Catholic and secondary -- catholic primary
:50:31. > :50:33.school, but there were lots of other races and religions. I wish I had
:50:34. > :50:40.learned more about the religion than my own. One viewer says, there is no
:50:41. > :50:45.place for the schools in the education system. Religious teaching
:50:46. > :50:49.should be done at home. And Barbara on Facebook, as a nonreligious
:50:50. > :50:53.taxpayers who respects all faiths, I would not wish to find organisations
:50:54. > :50:57.that help increase the divisions within society.
:50:58. > :51:02.Thank you for your comments. There are two macro issues. There are some
:51:03. > :51:08.faith schools which it is claimed an encouraging segregation. On the
:51:09. > :51:11.other side, there are faith schools that are high performing and do very
:51:12. > :51:14.well. In an area where there are not good state schools, they are
:51:15. > :51:19.excluding secular kids. You alluded to the second point earlier? The
:51:20. > :51:22.second point is interesting. If you look across the whole of western
:51:23. > :51:28.Europe, religious attendance has been decreasing but they'd school
:51:29. > :51:31.attendance has been increasing or staying the same. It suggests that
:51:32. > :51:36.more parents are sending their children to faith schools and are
:51:37. > :51:42.practising a faith. That is because faith schools outperform in terms of
:51:43. > :51:46.academic achievement. Why are faith schools outperforming? They select
:51:47. > :51:51.children from less underprivileged backgrounds and other schools. It is
:51:52. > :51:55.a complicated picture. The studies do not bear that out. The free
:51:56. > :51:59.school meals study, the Department for Education themselves do not use
:52:00. > :52:05.it because there are so many other factors. Catholic schools accept
:52:06. > :52:08.more from the poorest areas of the country. As for the thing about
:52:09. > :52:12.practising, you do not have to be catholic to appreciate the Catholic
:52:13. > :52:17.education, forgiveness, kindness, being a good citizen. Those values
:52:18. > :52:23.do not just come from religion. I agree. Non-believers have that as
:52:24. > :52:28.well. Yes, but people find it easier to find those values in that whole
:52:29. > :52:33.imaginative picture. There is a massive role for faith in society,
:52:34. > :52:38.but we would never accept hospitals or trains that were segregated by
:52:39. > :52:43.faith. In now or other public servers would we accept segregation.
:52:44. > :52:47.Schools are so important in raising our future citizens. It is a good
:52:48. > :52:56.question and you have had the final word. Thank you.
:52:57. > :52:58.They say that singing is good for the soul,
:52:59. > :53:00.so we've sent Mehreen Baig on a mission to find
:53:01. > :53:03.She's been at the Voices Now festival in London.
:53:04. > :53:05.She's not just there to watch, though.
:53:06. > :53:09.choirs at the festival for the show's grand finale.
:53:10. > :53:14.I am in Camden for a music festival that considers singing good for your
:53:15. > :53:21.physical, mental and spiritual well-being. The Voices Now festival
:53:22. > :53:25.began eight years ago, through workshops and performances it
:53:26. > :53:37.encourages and celebrate squires, of which there are over 40,000 in the
:53:38. > :53:42.UK. -- choirs. Claire Edwards is one of the organisers. The Rock and pop
:53:43. > :53:47.groups, classical groups, gospel groups. There are so many things
:53:48. > :53:51.that make them similar, coming together and singing is an amazingly
:53:52. > :53:55.powerful and spiritual experience for many people. To test out the
:53:56. > :54:01.benefits of singing, I go in search of my first workshop. This woman
:54:02. > :54:06.runs our workshop that combines singing and movement. I think that
:54:07. > :54:11.moving and singing at the same time just fires all these brilliant brain
:54:12. > :54:15.neurons. You relax, you breeze and when we come closer together it is
:54:16. > :54:21.not the competitive experience. It is about supporting each other. We
:54:22. > :54:27.generally feel love. We feel love through music. That was so good, so
:54:28. > :54:33.enjoyable, so uplifting. No one really cared what everyone else was
:54:34. > :54:38.doing. It was so free. I loved it. The physical and mental well-being
:54:39. > :54:44.of singing is all too clear. What about the spiritual dimension? I am
:54:45. > :54:49.joining Genevieve for her gospel workshop. My gospel workshop is
:54:50. > :54:53.about the love of God, and gospel means good news, so it is about how
:54:54. > :55:02.we express that through singing and through living.
:55:03. > :55:05.# I can dance. You would say that gospel music is good for the sole?
:55:06. > :55:11.It gives you hope, joy and peace. Singing allows you to smile. I
:55:12. > :55:16.really believe that everyone can sing and has a voice. At 5:30pm, we
:55:17. > :55:23.are performing life. Would you be willing to join in? I would love to.
:55:24. > :55:26.I will give it my best shot. Before my singing debut, then it's time to
:55:27. > :55:30.explore what else the festival has to offer. There are so many
:55:31. > :55:37.different workshops. I literally do not know where to go next. There is
:55:38. > :55:40.even our workshop for beatbox. This MC teaches how to use the voice to
:55:41. > :55:49.reproduce the sounds and rhythms of percussion.
:55:50. > :55:58.Keep the tempo. Yes, nice. I have been really inspired. It is great to
:55:59. > :56:02.connect with other people. I have lovely jams where we have created
:56:03. > :56:05.amazing sounds together. I love singing and it is a great way to
:56:06. > :56:12.connect to that other side of yourself. For me, a view have been
:56:13. > :56:16.through things and have no way to express it, like, I used to do art,
:56:17. > :56:21.and music is one of the things I enjoy. Does it make you feel good?
:56:22. > :56:30.It is like a relief. You have all that pain inside of you, and you
:56:31. > :56:34.just let it out. It is time for me to join Genevieve and the workshop
:56:35. > :56:39.gospel group, performing a song we learned from scratch in just two
:56:40. > :56:58.hours. The first time I decided to sing was on the BBC. Enjoy.
:56:59. > :57:13.# I can dance... # I am going to praise him.
:57:14. > :57:20.That was absolutely brilliant. The audience loved it, the group loved
:57:21. > :57:28.it. I am sweating a bit, but so uplifting, so much fun. Beyonce,
:57:29. > :57:32.watch out. Mehreen Baig in fine voice. Lots of comments coming in
:57:33. > :57:36.about earlier items in the programme. We were talking about the
:57:37. > :57:43.morning after pill. Ben has said, I went with an ex-girlfriend to get
:57:44. > :57:48.the morning after pill. I was a maids -- I was amazed by the judging
:57:49. > :57:54.looks and comments for -- from the pharmacist. My girlfriend said it
:57:55. > :57:59.was much worse for a woman on her own. Great to see the young gay
:58:00. > :58:04.Muslim man be open about his relationship. It will help others.
:58:05. > :58:09.One viewer says, my heart goes out to sweep Muslim Jahed.
:58:10. > :58:14.Amazing that he found Sean. That is all from us. Thanks to our guests
:58:15. > :58:15.and you at home for your contributions. Emma will be carrying
:58:16. > :58:20.on the conversation online. Yes, I'll be continuing
:58:21. > :58:22.the discussion with Afua Hirsch and talking to her about her
:58:23. > :58:25.upcoming book, called Brit ISH, Log on to
:58:26. > :58:27.facebook.com/bbcsundaymorninglive In the meantime, from everyone
:58:28. > :58:33.here in the studio and the whole