:00:00. > :00:08.On today's programme: North Korea continues its missile face off
:00:09. > :00:20.Would military action against it be justified?
:00:21. > :00:23.He has said things that are horrific and with me he's not getting away
:00:24. > :00:25.with it. Justin Gatlin was back
:00:26. > :00:27.on the track last night, a week after he was booed
:00:28. > :00:34.by the London crowds. We ask - should there be more
:00:35. > :00:37.forgiveness in sport? And Dame Esther Rantzen recalls
:00:38. > :00:39.a lifetime of campaigning, That's Life, and the day she got
:00:40. > :00:54.on the wrong side of the law. I try and bury that moment, I never
:00:55. > :01:01.speak of it. I have just been arrested for handing out bat stew!
:01:02. > :01:04.All that coming up later, and Emma Barnett is here ready
:01:05. > :01:16.You can contact us by Facebook and Twitter -
:01:17. > :01:18.don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml.
:01:19. > :01:20.Or text SML followed by your message to 60011.
:01:21. > :01:22.Texts are charged at your standard message rate.
:01:23. > :01:26.Or email us at 'sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk'.
:01:27. > :01:29.However you choose to get in touch, please don't forget to include your
:01:30. > :01:33.name so I can get you involved in our discussions.
:01:34. > :01:43.Including whether the NHS should stop giving IVF to older women.
:01:44. > :01:48.-- should stop giving IVF fertility treatment completely.
:01:49. > :01:53.First, North Korea and the USA have spent this week trading threats.
:01:54. > :01:55.The regime of Kim Jong-un have forecast that this week
:01:56. > :01:58.they will fire missiles 2,000 miles into the sea near the American
:01:59. > :02:02.President Donald Trump has warned the North Koreans of fire and fury
:02:03. > :02:16.North Korea is best not make any more threats to the United States.
:02:17. > :02:19.They will be met with fire and fury, like the world has never seen.
:02:20. > :02:21.There's concern that the war of words could spark
:02:22. > :02:22.a real conflict with potentially devastating
:02:23. > :02:25.Washington is worried about the growing threat posed
:02:26. > :02:28.by a country which has long-range rockets and nuclear weapons.
:02:29. > :02:33.So, would military action against North Korea be justified?
:02:34. > :02:40.Joining us now are Charlie Wolf, an American commentator,
:02:41. > :02:42.Catherine Philp, diplomatic correspondent at The Times,
:02:43. > :02:44.Peter Felstead, the editor of Jane's Defence Weekly,
:02:45. > :02:52.and Bruce Kent from the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.
:02:53. > :02:55.Charlie, wouldn't we all be feeling a lot safer this
:02:56. > :02:59.had avoided getting embroiled in this war of words?
:03:00. > :03:05.This started way before Donald Trump, when they have the drive to
:03:06. > :03:11.the inauguration, president Obama said he is going to be your biggest
:03:12. > :03:14.problem. It has been going on for four or five presidencies. No one
:03:15. > :03:18.wants to see hostilities but the threat is Kim Jong-un and the best
:03:19. > :03:25.way to prevent the threat is to use force or this threat of force. The
:03:26. > :03:30.credible threat of power or force is the best deterrent. Don't you think
:03:31. > :03:34.Kim Jong-un is sitting in his palace laughing because Donald Trump has
:03:35. > :03:39.taken the bait? No, this has been going on too long and you have to
:03:40. > :03:45.stand up to these people. Bruce, what do you make of that? I think it
:03:46. > :03:49.is off the wall. Donald Trump should be negotiating in good faith to get
:03:50. > :03:54.rid of nuclear weapons, he's done nothing of the sort. Why should he
:03:55. > :03:58.have them and not North Korea? But when you are dealing with a leader
:03:59. > :04:02.like Kim Jong-un, isn't military threat the only way you can stop him
:04:03. > :04:07.getting out of control? But then you have to implement your threat, which
:04:08. > :04:15.means devastation of the large part of the world. UN sanctions haven't
:04:16. > :04:21.worked before. 122 countries have signed up against nuclear weapons,
:04:22. > :04:28.why can't Trump join that? Peter, where are we with this? Bruce made
:04:29. > :04:32.the perfect point that many other countries, the west, USA, Russia,
:04:33. > :04:38.got huge amounts of nuclear weapons, why shouldn't North Korea? That's an
:04:39. > :04:43.interesting argument. I think we would have to look to a world where
:04:44. > :04:48.nuclear weapons are not part of the equation. We can look forward to
:04:49. > :04:51.technologies like ballistic missile defence as a counter to nuclear
:04:52. > :04:56.weapons but I think what's most dangerous about this particular
:04:57. > :05:01.situation is its proclivity to escalate very fast and I think
:05:02. > :05:05.that's where the danger is. A war of words is good for any of us but
:05:06. > :05:09.surely that is holding North Korea back from doing something that would
:05:10. > :05:14.be very dangerous. The problem with North Korea is we simply don't know
:05:15. > :05:18.what they are thinking. We can look at the Trump Administration and seek
:05:19. > :05:25.sensible people in the room to know what it's like to put men in battle.
:05:26. > :05:30.With North Korea we know absolutely nothing about what they are thinking
:05:31. > :05:34.and that's a key danger. Catherine, North Korea said it would fire
:05:35. > :05:39.missiles into the sea near Guam, what happens if they hit Guam?
:05:40. > :05:44.Surely we are very close to something very dangerous and that's
:05:45. > :05:49.because of North Korea. First of all we have to see whether they actually
:05:50. > :05:53.do it or not. President Trump threatened action against a threat.
:05:54. > :05:57.North Korea have made that threat and he hasn't followed through on
:05:58. > :06:02.his threat, this is the problem. When you throw around threats, you
:06:03. > :06:08.may feel compelled to follow through on them and that's where we get into
:06:09. > :06:12.dangerous territory. Don't throw around threats if you are not
:06:13. > :06:16.prepared to follow through on them, it's a basic rule of diplomacy and
:06:17. > :06:24.military strategy. This is why we see his generals taking a different
:06:25. > :06:28.line. I know of not one military man who thinks force will solve anything
:06:29. > :06:33.in this conflict. So my response to the question we opened with, is
:06:34. > :06:39.military force justified, I don't even get to justify it, I get to
:06:40. > :06:43.this is a terrible idea for which there is no strategic objectives.
:06:44. > :06:49.Nothing you can make happen by the use of military force that we would
:06:50. > :06:53.want to happen. But if a missile lands on Guam, surely you have to do
:06:54. > :06:59.something? You cannot speak to them because diplomacy doesn't work at
:07:00. > :07:03.that stage. We haven't seriously tried diplomacy recently with North
:07:04. > :07:07.Korea. There was a process under the Clinton Administration when their
:07:08. > :07:11.word direct talks and they haven't happened since so I'm not sure you
:07:12. > :07:15.have a choice. If North Korea have the ability to strike the US
:07:16. > :07:21.mainland with a nuclear weapon, I don't see the choice. They don't
:07:22. > :07:24.have it yet and we don't want them to have it. I think that ship has
:07:25. > :07:29.sailed. With me now is someone who has
:07:30. > :07:33.first hand experience Jihyun Park fled the country
:07:34. > :07:39.after her brother was beaten After a terrible ordeal at the hand
:07:40. > :07:46.of people traffickers, she finally arrived in this
:07:47. > :07:56.country in 2008. What do people in North Korea know
:07:57. > :08:10.of the world beyond it? I have read every column inch written about
:08:11. > :08:16.this, I follow diplomacy laws and often I cannot sleep at night. I am
:08:17. > :08:30.frightened about what should happen to the families who live in North
:08:31. > :08:42.Korea. President Trump has accused the Chinese bank of laundering money
:08:43. > :09:00.and ... I worry about these strong assumptions but we usually... I
:09:01. > :09:17.understand nowadays what accuracy is, it is information to North Korea
:09:18. > :09:21.dictators because members of the Kim family have always controlled the
:09:22. > :09:25.North Korean people and don't like North Korean people changing their
:09:26. > :09:33.mind. But this information changes the North Korean people and one day
:09:34. > :09:38.we stand up and... Let me ask you, do people in North Korea know that
:09:39. > :09:44.the country has nuclear weapons? What are they taught or told about
:09:45. > :09:47.them? The North Korean people not too much know about what happens
:09:48. > :09:59.nowadays outside the country and insight North Korea because there is
:10:00. > :10:07.only one TV and newspaper, and not describing other countries. So
:10:08. > :10:12.people heard about the Government, but nowadays many North Korean
:10:13. > :10:22.people complain about that. We cannot divide the USA army. Jihyun
:10:23. > :10:28.Park, thank you for giving us inside. So not much known on the
:10:29. > :10:35.ground about what is going on. These are real people, Charlie, who
:10:36. > :10:39.will be caught up in a war of words between two big egos. It is the
:10:40. > :10:48.commander-in-chief of the United States, not two big egos. But they
:10:49. > :10:53.are real people. Yes, and this is a prison, an open-air prison, North
:10:54. > :11:05.Korea. Besides that, we have a right and duty to protect our citizens. Is
:11:06. > :11:10.-- Trump is giving a consequence. We want to make peace with everybody.
:11:11. > :11:15.But as Catherine says, it is difficult once you go down the path
:11:16. > :11:20.to follow up with the threat. I just want to talk to Peter about actually
:11:21. > :11:25.how close are they to firing a nuclear weapon at Guam or anywhere
:11:26. > :11:30.else in the world. How close are North Korea to doing that? They have
:11:31. > :11:38.demonstrated capacity to conduct nuclear tests. They have
:11:39. > :11:42.demonstrated their capacity to fire intercontinental ballistic missiles.
:11:43. > :11:46.To what extent they can weaponised those missiles we are not entirely
:11:47. > :11:51.sure but the US defence and intelligence community has recently
:11:52. > :11:59.said they believe they do have that capacity. What are the options if
:12:00. > :12:04.they do? Troops on the ground? Are targeted attack by the USA?
:12:05. > :12:08.Militarily the USA said they do have the capacity to defend against a
:12:09. > :12:11.limited missile strike and that's probably what we are talking about
:12:12. > :12:16.here because I don't think they will have that many missiles that are
:12:17. > :12:21.long range and weaponised but the danger is escalation from that
:12:22. > :12:26.point. Let's find out what people are saying at home. Chris says we
:12:27. > :12:31.should be standing by America when it comes to North Korea and be
:12:32. > :12:35.prepared to destroy the regime and establish a working government for
:12:36. > :12:39.them. Elaine says I think Kim Jong-un is dangerous but has become
:12:40. > :12:43.more dangerous with Mr Trump in the White House continually baiting him.
:12:44. > :12:49.He's a rare outtake TV star who forgets he's dealing with real life.
:12:50. > :12:54.Robert says they are like pathetic schoolyard bullies. Paul chimed in
:12:55. > :12:59.and says why are they doing this when Nato exists for this reason. We
:13:00. > :13:05.shouldn't go in just because Trump and the US do. We all know Trump is
:13:06. > :13:11.talking big to help his abysmal poll numbers. I don't need to die in a
:13:12. > :13:18.war to help an ego driven man get over his multiple inadequacies, says
:13:19. > :13:22.Chris. In the past we have had an awful lot of words between North
:13:23. > :13:29.Korea and America and the rest of the world, but what's new here? The
:13:30. > :13:32.rhetoric isn't new, is it? It is from the American side. The North
:13:33. > :13:38.Korean rhetoric has sounded like this for years. We are used to that.
:13:39. > :13:43.It is profoundly destabilising when the commander-in-chief of the United
:13:44. > :13:48.States departs from the script quite so dramatically. Also, as we just
:13:49. > :13:53.heard, the intelligence assessments are new. North Korea is far further
:13:54. > :13:58.down the road than we believed it would be. We thought this moment
:13:59. > :13:59.wouldn't come for two or three years minimum so their capability is much
:14:00. > :14:09.more advanced. Because we have allowed it to get
:14:10. > :14:14.that way. We do not know what Kim Jong-un will do but to the same
:14:15. > :14:18.extent, we do not know what Donald Trump will do. In this instance, it
:14:19. > :14:25.is good. The Chinese are the ones who will say, the guy could do it,
:14:26. > :14:30.and it will be the incentive for them to say, it is time to talk to
:14:31. > :14:39.North Korea, you have to stop this. Is there a place for military
:14:40. > :14:44.action? Certainly not. Never? In some situations, maybe, but in this,
:14:45. > :14:49.certainly not. They are both risking national suicide, not protecting
:14:50. > :14:54.anything. Nuclear weapons now are five times as big as the ones that
:14:55. > :14:58.destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and we have thousands of them. Will
:14:59. > :15:04.China keep out of it? Will Russia? We are on the edge of catastrophe
:15:05. > :15:09.and to talk about protecting a country is ridiculous. We should
:15:10. > :15:11.have other ways of resolving the conflict. You have had the final
:15:12. > :15:15.say, thank you very much. Dame Esther Rantzen has
:15:16. > :15:17.always been a fighter. She founded the charity Childline
:15:18. > :15:19.to help vulnerable children and Silver Line to combat loneliness
:15:20. > :15:21.in older people. But it is as a television presenter
:15:22. > :15:24.that Esther made her name, most notably with a hugely
:15:25. > :15:27.successful TV programme which ran for more than 20 years and mixed
:15:28. > :15:29.hard-hitting journalism, moving personal stories and quirky
:15:30. > :15:31.humour - That's Life - which she recalled when Sean went
:15:32. > :15:50.to meet her. APPLAUSE
:15:51. > :15:55.Esther Rantzen, let us talk about That's Life, a huge success, getting
:15:56. > :16:01.figures of up to 22 million. It looked like a lot of fun to make.
:16:02. > :16:05.Was it? Yes, it was. That was our slogan, actually, on the Tuesday
:16:06. > :16:10.morning, when we were reading a fresh batch of letters that came in
:16:11. > :16:14.from viewers, the material came from the audience for That's Life. We
:16:15. > :16:24.must thank everyone who has sent us the pictures. In Middlesbrough,
:16:25. > :16:30.window magic... And Virginia Stevens in Enfield, sticks almost
:16:31. > :16:37.everything. What we would say is, wouldn't it be fun if...? And it was
:16:38. > :16:40.fun. But also very serious. We had very heart-rending stories at the
:16:41. > :16:45.centre of the programme. I would like to thank him for saving my
:16:46. > :16:51.life. If it had not been for this man, I would not be here. With us
:16:52. > :16:58.tonight, hello. I should tell you you are sitting next to Nicholas
:16:59. > :17:10.Winter. APPLAUSE
:17:11. > :17:15.You also got arrested during filming. Tell us about that. I try
:17:16. > :17:21.and bury that moment. I never speak of it. Not your proudest moment? I
:17:22. > :17:25.was arrested for handing out bat stew, not because they were worried
:17:26. > :17:30.about the bat but because the policeman decided I was obstructing
:17:31. > :17:33.the pavement. You are blocking the pavement. I don't care if you have
:17:34. > :17:42.something for the last ten years, if you do not move, will arrest you.
:17:43. > :17:46.You are rested. I have just been arrested for handing out bat stew.
:17:47. > :17:54.Can you tell our director I was not obstructing. It was the bat! It was
:17:55. > :17:57.very entertaining, of course, but it also was ground-breaking and I am
:17:58. > :18:02.thinking of Childline, you did pretty serious stuff you have
:18:03. > :18:07.touched on, talk to us about that, 30 years ago now. Absolutely. The
:18:08. > :18:20.launch of Childline is a night I will never ever forget. Hello,
:18:21. > :18:24.Childline, can I help you? 50,000 attempted calls when we opened the
:18:25. > :18:28.lines because we were giving an opportunity to children and indeed
:18:29. > :18:33.some adults too to talk about things they had never dared talk about
:18:34. > :18:39.before. And we were able to assure them that it was not therefore is --
:18:40. > :18:44.it was not their fault, the abuse should not be happening to them. It
:18:45. > :18:49.changed my life, obviously, but much more important than that, it changed
:18:50. > :18:55.the lives of more than 4 million children. Let us get onto Silver
:18:56. > :19:00.Line, there are similarities and big differences. With Silver Line,
:19:01. > :19:06.people left alone and lonely and ignored. What is the aim and what
:19:07. > :19:10.would you like to happen with Silver Line? What we want to do is make
:19:11. > :19:17.children understand that we care about them, but with that Silver
:19:18. > :19:23.Line, we want older people to understand we care about them. And
:19:24. > :19:29.when we piloted that Silver Line, one of our callers in the very early
:19:30. > :19:35.days said, when I put the phone down after I had called Silver Line, I
:19:36. > :19:39.feel like I have joined the human race. That makes me quite angry
:19:40. > :19:44.because our older people should always feel like they are valued
:19:45. > :19:48.members of the human race. In 2000, you lost your husband, Desmond
:19:49. > :19:53.Wilcox. Can you remember much of that time and how painful it was? I
:19:54. > :20:03.think anybody who has been through this sort of loss, we never really
:20:04. > :20:10.get over it. We never forget it. But we learn to cope with it, I think.
:20:11. > :20:17.If we are lucky, and I have got family and friends and work and all
:20:18. > :20:22.kinds of things which I rely upon, really, but nothing fills the gap.
:20:23. > :20:26.Is that the spark to get you to do that Silver Line? I found myself
:20:27. > :20:31.coming home to the flat and it was dark and empty and cold and there
:20:32. > :20:35.was no one to have a cup of tea with and talk about the day with and I
:20:36. > :20:40.did not like it. I am not a religious person, I am agnostic. My
:20:41. > :20:45.daughter is religious. I was rather appalled when I found myself saying,
:20:46. > :20:49.I think God wants you to move in with me. Fortunately, she laughed!
:20:50. > :20:56.You are sitting in your kitchen with your daughter, you are agnostic, she
:20:57. > :21:04.is religious, what religion is she? She is Jewish. You were brought up
:21:05. > :21:10.in a Jewish household, has that shaped your life? Yes, I feel very
:21:11. > :21:14.grateful because I know I was born in 1940 and if I had been born in a
:21:15. > :21:20.different country, I would not be sitting here today. My family would
:21:21. > :21:24.not have survived. At the difficult times in your life, has faith played
:21:25. > :21:31.any sort of role? I am agnostic, I am also a sceptic. I am thrilled for
:21:32. > :21:40.people for whom faith makes a difference. As I say, if I am wrong,
:21:41. > :21:46.if you are there, I apologise, I should have realised earlier. It is
:21:47. > :21:48.never too late! Finally, if there was a television programme about
:21:49. > :21:57.your life, what would you will sign off be? I am going to resist that's
:21:58. > :22:04.life, that was life, that is afterlife... That sounds morbid! You
:22:05. > :22:09.are making this programme... What would my sign off be? I'm afraid
:22:10. > :22:14.that is all we have time for. Thank you so much. Thank you. She is very
:22:15. > :22:17.keen to hear from anyone who has been helped by Childline.
:22:18. > :22:18.Contact her on esther.rantzen@nspcc.org.uk.
:22:19. > :22:23.Still to come on Sunday Morning Live...
:22:24. > :22:30.The Archbishop of Canterbury travels to Uganda to highlight
:22:31. > :22:39.I am quite bowled over by the genuine level to which Uganda has
:22:40. > :22:51.accepted refugees which is the equivalent of us taking
:22:52. > :22:56.2.5-3,000,000. It was a golden time last night at the athletics
:22:57. > :23:00.championships with a stunning first place in the relay. But for Usain
:23:01. > :23:10.Bolt, it was a sad occasion as he pulled short with an injury. Last
:23:11. > :23:15.week Usain Bolt had further heartache when he was beaten by
:23:16. > :23:22.Justin Gatlin in the 100 metres final. Despite his success, Justin
:23:23. > :23:26.Gatlin was loudly booed because he has been banned twice over doping
:23:27. > :23:31.allegations in the second instance, serving a four year suspension. The
:23:32. > :23:37.medal ceremony was also low. His father described the crowd's
:23:38. > :23:42.reaction as disrespectful to the sport. Do athletes judged to have
:23:43. > :23:44.broken the rules deserve the cold shoulder?
:23:45. > :23:45.Should there be more forgiveness in sport?
:23:46. > :23:48.Joining us now are Mihir Bose, journalist and former
:23:49. > :23:51.Martha Kelner, chief sports reporter at the Guardian,
:23:52. > :23:58.Habir Singh, anti-doping team leader at London 2012.
:23:59. > :24:00.If an athlete who's done wrong, has served their punishment,
:24:01. > :24:08.I think it depends on the circumstances, but with Justin
:24:09. > :24:14.Gatlin, he has been found guilty of two doping offences now, the second
:24:15. > :24:17.was very serious, so I can understand the crowd taking out
:24:18. > :24:22.their frustration in the form of booing him. The only issue was the
:24:23. > :24:26.double standards from the crowd in that there are many people who have
:24:27. > :24:32.committed anti-doping offences competing at the London 2017 Games,
:24:33. > :24:38.so I think Justin Gatlin was taking the flat for the rest of the people
:24:39. > :24:42.who have committed offences. In life, if you do something wrong,
:24:43. > :24:48.very wrong, you go to prison, serve your time, there are no sanctions,
:24:49. > :24:52.people do not who you on the street. It is life, isn't it? I think that
:24:53. > :25:00.is true but sport has to be divorced from life. It is a job, isn't it? It
:25:01. > :25:03.is. But if you commit fraud in a financial job, it is unlikely your
:25:04. > :25:09.employer will invite you back, the same if you are a lawyer and you are
:25:10. > :25:13.correct, you will be disbarred. You are not banned? You are, on
:25:14. > :25:20.occasion. If you are Doctor, you do wrong, you are struck off the
:25:21. > :25:24.register. Sport is a privilege, not a God-given right. If you are
:25:25. > :25:30.abusing that privilege... OK, the crowd did not seem very forgiving.
:25:31. > :25:35.Usain Bolt seem to accept it. He applauded Justin Gatlin, shouldn't
:25:36. > :25:42.the crowd have been doing the same? I think they should have. I think it
:25:43. > :25:45.was wrong for the crowd to boo him. I agree sport is special but we
:25:46. > :25:50.should not forgive because forgiveness is part of life -- but
:25:51. > :25:55.we should forgive. Sport is magical. The two incident you showed were
:25:56. > :26:00.surprising, unexpected results, sport is the only place you can get
:26:01. > :26:04.unexpected results. Everything in life is predictable and the magic of
:26:05. > :26:10.sport means that people who follow it think that everybody is pure and
:26:11. > :26:14.wonderful and what they do is because they have worked for it.
:26:15. > :26:17.That is not right. If we do not forgive, we are missing out the
:26:18. > :26:21.redemptive part of sport. Surely sport is about people coming back
:26:22. > :26:28.and winning when you did not think they could. You test athletes, is it
:26:29. > :26:33.time to stop forgiving and bring in much harsher punishments? I think
:26:34. > :26:38.there is this narrative about athletes and particularly the Justin
:26:39. > :26:42.Gatlin case, but I think the intricacies are not always
:26:43. > :26:46.understood. The first case, the United States anti-doping agency
:26:47. > :26:49.said there was no intent to cheat and he did not cheat but the
:26:50. > :26:53.international association for athletics Federation said that
:26:54. > :26:58.because he tested positive, he has to be banned. We do not get that
:26:59. > :27:03.part of the story. The second time he tested positive, he had 34 tests
:27:04. > :27:07.during that event prior to the positive test and he was negative.
:27:08. > :27:14.We do not hear that. We just hear, he tested positive twice, he beat
:27:15. > :27:19.our hero, Usain Bolt, so the public opinion is he is the bad guy. The
:27:20. > :27:22.narrative is we think, they have done something wrong. You are on the
:27:23. > :27:27.coal face and you are saying, half the time, they do not mean to break
:27:28. > :27:32.the rules. We have to look at it from the wider perspective which is
:27:33. > :27:38.they are human beings, their livelihood, and the bigger issues,
:27:39. > :27:44.why are athletes doping but I'm not forgiving athletes is not addressing
:27:45. > :27:48.it. I think it is very rarely you get an athlete who holds up their
:27:49. > :27:51.hands and says, yes, I cheated intentionally. When was the last
:27:52. > :27:56.time there was an Olympic champion who had not failed a drugs test who
:27:57. > :27:58.said, actually, I have deceived you, I have been doping? It does not
:27:59. > :28:00.happen. Not in human nature. Emma, you've got
:28:01. > :28:02.a guest on this one. With me now is the former javelin
:28:03. > :28:04.athlete Goldie Sayers, who finished fourth
:28:05. > :28:07.at the Beijing Olympics in 2008. She's waiting to hear if she will be
:28:08. > :28:10.upgraded to bronze after one of the Russian athletes in that
:28:11. > :28:13.competition was found to have taken The athlete is appealing
:28:14. > :28:16.the decision. So, whilst the legal
:28:17. > :28:18.challenge is under way, we don't want to get
:28:19. > :28:20.into the details of that case but when you were competing,
:28:21. > :28:23.what impact did the issue of athletes taking banned
:28:24. > :28:39.substances have on you? As an athlete at the time, you have
:28:40. > :28:44.to remain naive, otherwise it probably sends you a bit mad. You
:28:45. > :28:49.have no physical evidence someone is cheating, but having found out an
:28:50. > :28:54.athlete who finished ahead of me in the Olympic Games perhaps has been
:28:55. > :28:58.doping, it is... It does tarnish your career somewhat. The biggest
:28:59. > :29:03.thing it robs you of is knowing how good you were at the time and all
:29:04. > :29:06.the self-confidence and also financial reward that comes with
:29:07. > :29:11.that. You are pushing yourself harder while this is going on, you
:29:12. > :29:14.can risk greater injury because you are competing maybe against
:29:15. > :29:20.standards that are not natural? Exactly. When you have just missed
:29:21. > :29:25.out on a medal, you are making up a gap in performance and it is an
:29:26. > :29:29.imaginary gap so you end up pushing yourself, getting injured, that is
:29:30. > :29:34.what happened to me the year after, 2009, and has happen to a lot of
:29:35. > :29:37.other clean athletes. You end up getting injured and that has a big
:29:38. > :29:42.impact on your performance. It is not just missing out on the medal,
:29:43. > :29:44.it is also what impact that has on the rest of your career physically
:29:45. > :29:55.but also mentally. Do you think there should be tougher
:29:56. > :29:59.penalties for the athletes and also for the people around them? I think
:30:00. > :30:05.that's something we are not talking about a lot, it is who is pushing
:30:06. > :30:09.performance and enhancing drugs onto the athletes. I think harsher
:30:10. > :30:17.penalties have to be put in place for the coaches around the athletes
:30:18. > :30:21.who make them think it is OK to cheat. We are doing a lot more in
:30:22. > :30:25.sport to highlight the doping issue and getting to grips with testing
:30:26. > :30:30.more athletes and punishing them appropriately. I do think it is a
:30:31. > :30:33.grey area in that some athletes who test positively have inadvertently
:30:34. > :30:39.taken a banned substance but I think now we have got this second strike
:30:40. > :30:43.and URL policy, and I think that is right.
:30:44. > :30:49.I'll be in danger of letting athletes like Goldie down because we
:30:50. > :30:54.are not punishing people who test positive for banned substances
:30:55. > :30:58.enough? I don't think anyone is it against introducing sanctions,
:30:59. > :31:03.whether it is monetary or legal, to athletes. We are isolating sport and
:31:04. > :31:08.forgetting about the humanistic aspect. We are humans and can make
:31:09. > :31:14.mistakes and we would want a fair trial and to demonstrate intent
:31:15. > :31:19.before we label somebody. When we say athletes rarely admit to
:31:20. > :31:24.cheating or doping offences, I agree with that, but like anyone else we
:31:25. > :31:29.would want to be innocent until proven guilty entities that grey
:31:30. > :31:38.area. Can I turn away from drugs and talk more about sport generally.
:31:39. > :31:44.Mihir, all sportsmen and women are trying to get the edge, should we be
:31:45. > :31:48.stricter in that area? There is a difference between gamesmanship and
:31:49. > :31:53.cheating. In cricket ball tries to hide the ball from the batsmen in
:31:54. > :31:58.order to deceive him over whether the ball will swing. Is it cheating
:31:59. > :32:05.or clever play? You won't see the ball until the last minute so you
:32:06. > :32:12.won't know. That is good play, if you like, clever play. Like diving
:32:13. > :32:16.in football? If they used television replay they could work out the
:32:17. > :32:19.diving but they have gone in for retrospective punishment which means
:32:20. > :32:23.you punish the player and penalise the team that has suffered at the
:32:24. > :32:27.hands of the player. This is where I think sport has got into a model.
:32:28. > :32:32.You should punish the player straightaway so that the team, the
:32:33. > :32:37.player is part of the team, and we have this in the World Cup. The team
:32:38. > :32:41.is punished straightaway, not later on. What you want to see in sport is
:32:42. > :32:46.immediate results and spectators want to see it is fair. It's the
:32:47. > :32:54.first time I've seen you in agreement. You're nodding, Martha? I
:32:55. > :32:57.do agree with football and the punishment taking place immediately,
:32:58. > :33:01.but that level of offence this very different from something that alters
:33:02. > :33:06.the trajectory of someone else's career. You see it more in athletics
:33:07. > :33:09.than any other sport but when you are taking away someone's
:33:10. > :33:13.opportunities in the future you are also having a financial effect on
:33:14. > :33:17.their lives. You steal not only that moment on the podium but also the
:33:18. > :33:24.commercial opportunities they have. I don't think diving in football is
:33:25. > :33:28.comparable to doping or... But Martha, we also have a whole team
:33:29. > :33:35.behind the athletes and we don't do enough to look at what this team is.
:33:36. > :33:38.Advisers, managers, what are they doing? Let's find out what social
:33:39. > :33:44.media is saying. Peter says once is an error of
:33:45. > :33:48.judgment if your doping, twice is criminal intent. Francis says sport
:33:49. > :33:52.should always be about fair play and respect to your opponent, drug users
:33:53. > :33:59.show neither quality and should be dismissed from their sport for life.
:34:00. > :34:02.Emily says I explained to my eight-year-old son why everyone was
:34:03. > :34:05.booing Justin Gatlin and he said if I cheat at my games are not allowed
:34:06. > :34:18.to play, why should he be allowed? Out of the mouths of babes. Someone
:34:19. > :34:22.else says I would like to see two versions of the games, one clean and
:34:23. > :34:26.one with performance enhancing drugs.
:34:27. > :34:29.We will have to discuss that another time because we are out of time.
:34:30. > :34:31.Thank you very much indeed. The Archbishop of Canterbury has
:34:32. > :34:34.just returned from a trip to Africa Justin Welby joined forces
:34:35. > :34:38.with the Archbishop of Uganda, Stanley Ntagali, to highlight
:34:39. > :34:40.the plight of thousands of refugees who have fled the civil war
:34:41. > :34:43.in neighbouring South Sudan. Martin Bashir, the BBC's religious
:34:44. > :34:45.affairs correspondent, joined the two archbishops
:34:46. > :34:58.on their humanitarian journey. Cruising above the lush plains of
:34:59. > :35:02.east Africa, the archbishops of Canterbury and Uganda are on a
:35:03. > :35:11.mission to refugees who fled tribal conflict in South Sudan. Despite
:35:12. > :35:20.desperate circumstances, they offer the warmest of welcomes. More than
:35:21. > :35:26.900,000 people have rushed across the border into northern Uganda over
:35:27. > :35:31.the last five years. As the two main tribes have taken sides with either
:35:32. > :35:37.the current or previous presidents. I am really quite bowled over by the
:35:38. > :35:45.genuine level to which Uganda has accepted a volume of refugees which
:35:46. > :35:54.proportionate to their population is the equivalent of us taking 2.5
:35:55. > :36:07.million. This town houses 18,000 refugees. Can I come in? Thank you.
:36:08. > :36:12.Is it watertight when it rains? It is full of holes and sometimes they
:36:13. > :36:21.leak. So you get food from the United Nations? Yes. They only get
:36:22. > :36:26.that food and if it is not there, it is not there. This is a couple who
:36:27. > :36:32.from one moment to the next grab what you can and Rome and didn't
:36:33. > :36:46.tell us the horrendous things they saw. But others did.
:36:47. > :36:51.The United Nations is providing the bulk of support for food and
:36:52. > :36:58.shelter, but the Ugandan church is also involved. We pray for the
:36:59. > :37:06.refugees and for southern Sudan to resolve the conflict. We buy food,
:37:07. > :37:12.we give the children and the mothers because the majority of refugees are
:37:13. > :37:17.children and mothers. And educating these children is one of the camp's
:37:18. > :37:31.biggest challenges. How many children? 784. In one of the brief
:37:32. > :37:37.talks you gave, you said God especially loves refugees. Jesus was
:37:38. > :37:44.himself a refugee so he understands what it is like to have run from
:37:45. > :37:48.your house, suddenly, and find yourself in a strange land.
:37:49. > :37:53.One of the most striking things about the culture here is that in
:37:54. > :37:57.all our inadequacy of relationships, relating to the people who are
:37:58. > :38:03.suffering, there is this response which you will have heard to hope
:38:04. > :38:14.and faith in Jesus Christ because that is their experience. The UN
:38:15. > :38:18.continues to encourage the warring factions to negotiate peace but as
:38:19. > :38:22.yet there is little sign of an agreement.
:38:23. > :38:26.You have worked in Africa in the secular business of the oil
:38:27. > :38:29.industry, you have travelled extensively, you have taught, you
:38:30. > :38:36.now come as the Archbishop of Canterbury. Do you feel optimistic
:38:37. > :38:41.about the future of this continent or is there a sense of pessimism?
:38:42. > :38:48.When I look at Africa, I am full of hope. Let's not be hypocritical as
:38:49. > :38:54.Europeans. Within our lifetime, and many people still around, we killed
:38:55. > :38:59.20 million of each other, and look where Europe is now. We are not in a
:39:00. > :39:07.position to lecture other people on civilisation. We are in a position
:39:08. > :39:17.humbling, and with love and respect to help Africa in its great movement
:39:18. > :39:21.forward. The Archbishop prepares to leave Uganda, inspired by its
:39:22. > :39:26.response in welcoming almost 1 million people. This is in a poor
:39:27. > :39:36.country, led by the president who says we don't use the word refugee,
:39:37. > :39:38.these are fellow human beings, fellow Africans.
:39:39. > :39:40.The Archbishop of Canterbury with refugees in Uganda.
:39:41. > :39:44.Figures out this week reveal that access to IVF fertility treatment
:39:45. > :39:48.The research by Fertility Network UK says that some health authorities
:39:49. > :39:50.have stopped offering the three cycles of treatment,
:39:51. > :39:55.And three NHS providers are considering restricting IVF
:39:56. > :40:02.The technique fertilises eggs outside the womb and then
:40:03. > :40:06.So, in a time when the NHS is struggling for cash,
:40:07. > :40:16.Joining the panel now are Serena Bergman,
:40:17. > :40:19.a feminist journalist, Geeta Nargund, a fertility
:40:20. > :40:21.expert, Richard Clothier, who is a former fertility patient,
:40:22. > :40:28.and Caroline Farrow, a Catholic commentator.
:40:29. > :40:31.Geeta, in a time of cutbacks and shortages the NHS
:40:32. > :40:33.is struggling to meet all the demands placed on it.
:40:34. > :40:38.Is IVF a luxury we can no longer afford?
:40:39. > :40:50.IVF is not a luxury. Infertility is a disease, and it needs treatment
:40:51. > :40:53.like any other medical condition. Secondly, as regards the funding,
:40:54. > :40:59.it's not a problem. There is enough money in the NHS at the moment
:41:00. > :41:04.within the existing budget to fund IVF. It is how it is being spent.
:41:05. > :41:10.The question is the problem is how it's being spent and how it's being
:41:11. > :41:15.managed. Right now IVF is not considered as a national Health
:41:16. > :41:18.Service, as we all know it is a postcode lottery with regional
:41:19. > :41:25.variations. One authority paying 2500, another one a different amount
:41:26. > :41:30.and it is unacceptable. It is creating inequality in our society.
:41:31. > :41:35.The NHS does many things. One of the things it does save lives, one of
:41:36. > :41:39.the things it does is IVF. Many people would say the IVF is
:41:40. > :41:47.struggling for cash, if something is to go what comes first, saving lives
:41:48. > :41:51.or IVF? Creating life is equally important. There is a bigger picture
:41:52. > :41:56.here, fertility is not just for family benefit from it is for
:41:57. > :42:01.societal and long-term benefit. We need children for the long-term
:42:02. > :42:06.economy so we cannot be narrow-minded, we cannot be
:42:07. > :42:13.short-sighted. IVF is a solution, a technological solution to a disease
:42:14. > :42:17.and we cannot cut back. What do you make of that, Serena? It is
:42:18. > :42:24.everyone's right to have a baby? That is maybe. These are doctors and
:42:25. > :42:28.nurses, members of the community, they understand the struggle, but at
:42:29. > :42:33.the end of the day we need to remember that the NHS is struggling
:42:34. > :42:36.for cash in areas that really affect people's health and while I
:42:37. > :42:41.understand that IVF is so important to some people, the reality is, with
:42:42. > :42:46.all due respect, we don't need more children. It affects people's health
:42:47. > :42:51.when they cannot have children. We will ask Richard in a minute. I
:42:52. > :42:54.accept that, and we need more support for people with mental
:42:55. > :42:58.health issues whether it is because they cannot have children or for
:42:59. > :43:02.other reasons. We also need to reframe the idea that having a child
:43:03. > :43:08.biologically is something everyone should do in order to lead a happy
:43:09. > :43:13.life. Richard, what do you make of that? The mental health side alone
:43:14. > :43:16.will have a cost. If you move IVF treatment altogether the cost of
:43:17. > :43:20.dealing with the mental health demographic you will single-handedly
:43:21. > :43:24.create so that will have a financial cost in itself. The other thing you
:43:25. > :43:29.will do if you remove IVF treatment is send people abroad where
:43:30. > :43:35.treatment is far cheaper. But is it the right of everybody to have a
:43:36. > :43:40.baby and the role of the NHS to pay for it? I think the NHS has a
:43:41. > :43:47.responsibility for it because everybody has held events of some
:43:48. > :43:50.sort, but everybody's are different. Mine was infertility and the NHS
:43:51. > :43:55.wasn't there for me. I don't have any problem with the money I have
:43:56. > :43:59.put in the system to cater for other people's health events regardless of
:44:00. > :44:05.whether it is naturally caused or from a clear lifestyle decision they
:44:06. > :44:06.have made. Caroline, is IVF isn't on the NHS for free, surely just rich
:44:07. > :44:16.people would be able to do it? The role of the NHS is not to get
:44:17. > :44:23.involved in social engineering, to make things fairer for which or poor
:44:24. > :44:28.people. But I do have some sympathy with Richard and Geeta's point of
:44:29. > :44:32.the mental health impacts of infertility. I am a mother of five
:44:33. > :44:36.children and I know it is easy for me to pontificate about why IVF
:44:37. > :44:42.should not be available on the NHS, but when we look at what IVF does,
:44:43. > :44:47.it does not solve the underlying issue of infertility, it offers, for
:44:48. > :44:52.some people, the hope of a sticking plaster. The other day,
:44:53. > :44:56.interestingly, the Government's Public health authority has put out
:44:57. > :45:02.a survey for women's fertility, it asked women of all ages to
:45:03. > :45:05.contribute about different fertility and reproductive experiences, really
:45:06. > :45:09.valuable survey, worth filling in, and it does not mention something
:45:10. > :45:14.called natural fertility awareness, a woman monitoring her cycle, not
:45:15. > :45:20.just noting when her period is, how long the cycle is, but the various
:45:21. > :45:23.biological markers. There are quite a few people who have managed to
:45:24. > :45:30.conceive successfully... There will be people who can't. The NHS is not
:45:31. > :45:35.at the moment helping with that at all, women's fertility, the NHS
:45:36. > :45:38.treats women's fertility as if it is a problem that has to be stopped
:45:39. > :45:43.because people do not want to get pregnant. Then suddenly you decide
:45:44. > :45:48.you want to have children and you are faced with this at the last
:45:49. > :45:54.minute, goodness, I would like to have children, I am not conceiving,
:45:55. > :45:58.perhaps... With that attitude, if people who smoke have lung cancer,
:45:59. > :46:05.you are on your own, your decision. Absolutely not. When you have
:46:06. > :46:09.smoked, this is not about deserving and undeserving, this is why we must
:46:10. > :46:14.not take this attitude... When you have smoked, you have contracted a
:46:15. > :46:18.life-threatening disease and unique treatment. Presumably, you have put
:46:19. > :46:23.in a lot of money through taxation on cigarettes towards the NHS. It is
:46:24. > :46:29.not to do with who has contributed and who has not, but what is the
:46:30. > :46:35.best use of funds? Is creating life the best use of funds? I think
:46:36. > :46:38.actually no. Emma has a guest who might be interested. Someone in a
:46:39. > :46:44.very different position. Joining me now with Jessica who had a loving
:46:45. > :46:51.rounds of IVF which unfortunately has not been successful -- 11
:46:52. > :46:56.rounds. You are in your mid 30s, you found you were struggling to have
:46:57. > :47:02.children, EU funded privately, why was it so important for you? -- EU
:47:03. > :47:08.funded it privately. Having a baby is something we all think is a
:47:09. > :47:12.given, we know that we might not have everything in life, but we
:47:13. > :47:18.assume we are going to be able to have a family. When that is denied
:47:19. > :47:22.to you, it is exceptionally hard and it affects everything, your
:47:23. > :47:26.self-esteem, your relationship with your family and friends, your
:47:27. > :47:32.partner, how you feel about work. That is certainly why I went to such
:47:33. > :47:39.extremes and we were diagnosed with unexplained infertility. As many
:47:40. > :47:45.people are. Absolutely. I seemed to be able to get pregnant and I had
:47:46. > :47:49.multiple miscarriages and an ectopic pregnancy that almost took my life.
:47:50. > :47:53.I now dedicate my time to campaigning. We are only having this
:47:54. > :47:59.debate partly because people do not understand the impact that not being
:48:00. > :48:04.able to have a child has on your life. How does it make you feel when
:48:05. > :48:08.you hear someone able to have five children safe, IVF should not be
:48:09. > :48:11.offered on the NHS, it is not something important for the NHS to
:48:12. > :48:16.be offering, especially considering what the NHS is there to do?
:48:17. > :48:24.Obviously, that is really hard to hear. But at the same time, I think
:48:25. > :48:29.she said many valuable things about improving fertility education. One
:48:30. > :48:33.of the reasons we have had this exponential growth in infertility is
:48:34. > :48:36.that women are leaving it later and something that I feel really
:48:37. > :48:40.passionate about is that we are taught in school how not to get
:48:41. > :48:45.pregnant and actually getting pregnant is quite hard, especially
:48:46. > :48:49.if you leave it later. We have not created the conditions to enable
:48:50. > :48:55.people to have families that the biological optimum age. I think
:48:56. > :49:01.before we eradicate IVF on the NHS, perhaps we need to do more about
:49:02. > :49:04.that. And this is a growing issue. We will pick up some of these
:49:05. > :49:12.points. Jessica, thank you. Not easy.
:49:13. > :49:16.It affects relationships, work, friends, everything. It affected
:49:17. > :49:20.that lady in every aspect of life. What is wrong with giving women the
:49:21. > :49:25.chance to try? The problem is, as the lady mentioned, we perceive
:49:26. > :49:31.infertility as being denied a family. This is not the case. When
:49:32. > :49:35.you provide IVF on the NHS and you are not giving support to people who
:49:36. > :49:40.want to go down other routes such as adoption or fostering or the
:49:41. > :49:46.emotional support they need to reframe the idea of a happy life and
:49:47. > :49:50.a family life, you end up in horrendous situations where people
:49:51. > :49:54.are paying for 11 rounds of IVF. It shows the desperation. It may not be
:49:55. > :49:58.something you feel, but it is a feeling many couples feel.
:49:59. > :50:03.Absolutely. I think those feelings are very valid but I do not think
:50:04. > :50:08.the NHS should be funding the solutions and I do not think the
:50:09. > :50:12.solution is IVF. How do you feel about that? I think you cannot
:50:13. > :50:15.overstate the mental health impact of infertility and I think if there
:50:16. > :50:21.is such a delta between what some parts of the country are paying,
:50:22. > :50:26.2000 up to 11.5 thousand, there is so much that can be done with that
:50:27. > :50:31.pot of money. What is the value of... It does not work for everyone,
:50:32. > :50:36.but what is the harm, the financial return, of spending a little bit of
:50:37. > :50:40.money of taking someone from having serious mental health issues to
:50:41. > :50:46.being happy? Let us give people at home they say. Duncan says, 25 weeks
:50:47. > :50:49.pregnant having had IVF on the NHS, hard enough process to go through
:50:50. > :50:54.without having the financial pressure on top, congratulations!
:50:55. > :51:00.And says the NHS should be treating the sick, being unable to conceive
:51:01. > :51:05.is life-threatening, why should we pay? Rebecca says, infertility is a
:51:06. > :51:10.medical condition like any other and if receiving IVF is a cure, the NHS
:51:11. > :51:12.has a moral duty to help. It should be available for anybody who wants
:51:13. > :51:20.it. The final word to Geeta, what do you
:51:21. > :51:25.want the NHS to do? Place a cap on the price of IVF, to have a national
:51:26. > :51:30.price. One price everywhere, national problem, needs a national
:51:31. > :51:38.solution, so we can fund more cycles. Three rounds? Three rounds,
:51:39. > :51:43.there is money in the budget, it is how it is being spent. We should do
:51:44. > :51:50.it as a priority rather than talking about cutbacks. Fidelity is a man's
:51:51. > :51:53.problem as well, 50% of IVF is done for male infertility. We cannot
:51:54. > :51:58.create a society where there is inequality and we need to help
:51:59. > :52:01.people and infertility is a medical condition and IVF is a technological
:52:02. > :52:04.solution. Thank you very much, thank you to all of you.
:52:05. > :52:07.70 years ago, the partition of India led to the movement
:52:08. > :52:10.Muslims travelled to the new, mainly Muslim, state of Pakistan,
:52:11. > :52:13.while many Hindus and Sikhs headed in the opposite direction.
:52:14. > :52:18.The upheaval led to some bitter inter-religious violence.
:52:19. > :52:20.A BBC programme to mark the anniversary of partition takes
:52:21. > :52:24.members of families from the UK back to trace their roots and explore
:52:25. > :52:27.the impact that the creation of the two states had
:52:28. > :52:33.We'll talk to Sameer Butt and Binita Kane,
:52:34. > :52:36.two of those who went on this journey of discovery, in a moment.
:52:37. > :52:38.First, a taster of the programme, My Family, Partition
:52:39. > :52:54.So, recognise it? That was a very beautiful house, everything has
:52:55. > :53:08.changed. From here to there, I think. Our house. We used to live
:53:09. > :53:15.here... Hugely emotional scenes, you and your grandfather, Sameer. He
:53:16. > :53:18.broke down? When I think back to that moment, stood in front of the
:53:19. > :53:22.house, there was a time when he could not believe it was his because
:53:23. > :53:26.it had changed so much. The realisation on his face and the
:53:27. > :53:31.emotion that followed, it was overwhelming. He became a child in
:53:32. > :53:39.that moment, he said, where is my dad? Did he? That is what he said.
:53:40. > :53:43.70 years disappeared and he was a child again in that moment of
:53:44. > :53:48.realisation. A very emotional time for him and myself as well. I cannot
:53:49. > :53:51.even imagine. Growing up, did you talk about partition? Did you
:53:52. > :53:57.understand what it had done the millions of people? I knew the
:53:58. > :54:02.basics of it, a split between India and Pakistan. I knew roughly that my
:54:03. > :54:07.grandparents had gone through a tough time to get to where they are
:54:08. > :54:11.now. This experience, it actually helped me to explore exactly what
:54:12. > :54:14.they went through. I have experienced it in a certain way
:54:15. > :54:17.following the footsteps my grandfather took. People around you
:54:18. > :54:22.growing up in the UK, did you feel they knew about it, the hatred
:54:23. > :54:26.between the religions that had happened? It is really interesting
:54:27. > :54:30.because I have friends who are Hindus and friends who are Sikhs but
:54:31. > :54:35.we do not have the animosity that was there in the partition time.
:54:36. > :54:42.Only 70 years ago? Exactly. Still within our lifetime. There are a lot
:54:43. > :54:46.of people I work with, friends, they had no idea what partition was. I am
:54:47. > :54:52.glad we now have an opportunity to explore what happened and to show
:54:53. > :54:57.people what happened. Let me bring in Binita. Good morning. In the
:54:58. > :55:01.programme, we see you meeting some of those who helped your father
:55:02. > :55:06.escape, the violence as a seven-year-old. Let us look at an
:55:07. > :55:14.extract now. I just want to thank your family and for you, you saved
:55:15. > :55:23.my dad's life. You helped my family escape. Thank you so much. Thank
:55:24. > :55:36.you. I have a photograph to show you. He is here. This is the little
:55:37. > :55:42.boy you saved. Also very powerful moment, Binita. From the whole
:55:43. > :55:46.experience, was there a particular feeling or thought that stood out?
:55:47. > :55:50.The whole journey was an emotional roller-coaster from start to finish.
:55:51. > :55:56.From a personal point of view, I did not know if the village even existed
:55:57. > :56:03.anymore. In my mind, it had been burnt to the ground, everyone had
:56:04. > :56:07.fled. To find it was there and to meet people who remembered my family
:56:08. > :56:10.and my grandfather... In the next episode, you find out what has
:56:11. > :56:15.happened to them. It was just overwhelming. I cannot even describe
:56:16. > :56:19.how that felt, to thank the gentleman who saved my dad's life,
:56:20. > :56:23.it was an incredible moment. Very special. Did you grow up also having
:56:24. > :56:30.these conversations or was it talked about a little bit? Like Sameer, I
:56:31. > :56:34.knew in very factual terms that partition happened, two new states
:56:35. > :56:38.were created, and I knew the basics of what had happened, but I had
:56:39. > :56:44.absolutely no idea what a cataclysmic event it was, millions
:56:45. > :56:48.of people died, so many were made refugees, and the actual human
:56:49. > :56:51.impact of dividing people on those grounds, that really did not
:56:52. > :56:55.register. I am embarrassed to say I did not know more about it. I do not
:56:56. > :57:04.think you are alone, even though it affected your family. At any time,
:57:05. > :57:07.has it been difficult now learning more about it to learn what the
:57:08. > :57:10.British role was and obviously living in the UK? To be honest, a
:57:11. > :57:15.lot of people that we met at that time did speak about the role the
:57:16. > :57:19.British had, they had their role to play, but for myself, I think
:57:20. > :57:24.whether it should have happened or shouldn't have happened, I do not
:57:25. > :57:28.want to comment, but it did not happen in the right way. They could
:57:29. > :57:30.have been what organisation, guidelines to follow. There could
:57:31. > :57:34.have been a system in place to ensure millions of people did not
:57:35. > :57:39.lose their lives. Politicians incited hatred at the time, there
:57:40. > :57:44.was a feeling of that. Final word to you, Binita. When you look back at
:57:45. > :57:47.history, there will always be dark periods, we must not shy away from
:57:48. > :57:53.it, we must learn from it and look at what happened and so much of it
:57:54. > :57:56.is relevant to the modern world and we feel quite passionately, and I
:57:57. > :57:57.know Anita Rani does too, that we must raise awareness of it. I am
:57:58. > :58:01.sure the programme will do that. And you can see the second part
:58:02. > :58:05.of Partition, My Family and Me - India, 1947 on BBC One at 9pm this
:58:06. > :58:07.Wednesday. That's nearly all
:58:08. > :58:09.from us for this week. Many thanks to all our
:58:10. > :58:11.guests and you at home But Emma will be carrying
:58:12. > :58:15.on the conversation online. Yes, I'll be talking
:58:16. > :58:17.to Sameer and Binita. Log on to
:58:18. > :58:18.facebook.com/bbcsundaymorninglive In the meantime, from everyone
:58:19. > :58:25.here in the studio and the whole Sunday Morning Live team,
:58:26. > :58:32.goodbye.