:00:00. > :00:29.The route to happiness, and forgiving the people who hurt us.
:00:30. > :00:31.Good morning, I'm Niki Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
:00:32. > :00:33.Today we're live from the Michaelston Community
:00:34. > :00:37.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
:00:38. > :00:40.This week the Dutch held a general election.
:00:41. > :00:43.Geert Wilder's far-right Party of Freedom won 20 seats and was only
:00:44. > :00:51.beaten by the centre-right People's Party, led by
:00:52. > :00:53.Prime Minister Mark Rutte, which gained 33 seats.
:00:54. > :00:56.But Mr Rutte had to emulate some of the populist sentiments espoused
:00:57. > :01:07.Next month the Front National's leader, Marie le Pen's
:01:08. > :01:10.anti-immigration and anti-Muslim ideas will be put to the test in
:01:11. > :01:14.Polls predict she will go through to the second round in May.
:01:15. > :01:18.And in September Alternatif fur Deutschland, the German far right,
:01:19. > :01:19.will challenge Mrs Merkel's reign as Chancellor.
:01:20. > :01:26.Populist parties and policies have been gaining ground here too,
:01:27. > :01:28.with the Brexit vote and, in Wales, Ukip's seven seats
:01:29. > :01:32.The idea that ordinary people have been exploited by a privileged
:01:33. > :01:34.liberal elite seems to have taken hold across the continent.
:01:35. > :01:43.Are Europe's powerless taking control?
:01:44. > :01:55.David Goodhart, you have written an interesting book about this. You can
:01:56. > :01:59.expand some of the ideas. It is the dispossessed, be ignored, the
:02:00. > :02:03.neglected, the marginalised, the powerless kicking back. What are
:02:04. > :02:09.they kicking back against? It is true, but not a single Populist
:02:10. > :02:14.party is in government across Europe, unless you include Poland
:02:15. > :02:18.and Hungary, as some people do. Populism does represent a partly
:02:19. > :02:24.legitimate reaction to the over domination of our politics by quite
:02:25. > :02:36.a large group of people, most of them perfectly decent people, in my
:02:37. > :02:47.book I call them The Anywheres. They tend to be well educated. They have
:02:48. > :02:51.been to a good university and so on. They have dominated the political
:02:52. > :02:54.agenda to a certain extent. The expansion of higher education and
:02:55. > :03:01.the less good options people who don't take the higher education
:03:02. > :03:06.path. And the Middle status jobs that people used to enjoyed that are
:03:07. > :03:10.not there so much. Large-scale immigration, have freedom of
:03:11. > :03:17.movement, people can take advantage of it if they are highly educated.
:03:18. > :03:22.You are a lawyer and you can go and work in Berlin for a couple of
:03:23. > :03:26.years. One third of all people working in food manufacturing come
:03:27. > :03:30.from Eastern Europe and that has happened in the last ten years. You
:03:31. > :03:36.see it as a threat and competition. What about the social agenda, social
:03:37. > :03:41.progress that has happened? Most people in some ways, go along with
:03:42. > :03:45.that. Some people might call it a contradiction in terms, but
:03:46. > :03:51.something I call decent populism. If you look at the rise of
:03:52. > :03:55.liberalisation on race, gender and sexuality, the vast majority of
:03:56. > :04:05.people in this country, including the more subtle communitarian, go
:04:06. > :04:10.along with those changes. There is some pretty hard-core authoritarian
:04:11. > :04:15.populism represented by Geert Wilders, extreme anti-Islamic agenda
:04:16. > :04:19.and then you have more mainstream and decent populace, I will include
:04:20. > :04:27.Ukip in that. But the argument now is how we give the somewhere is a
:04:28. > :04:31.legitimate voice. They feel and have been to some extent, excluded from
:04:32. > :04:39.the political agenda. But the big thing among society, the The
:04:40. > :04:43.Anywheres, and you can see an argument going on between those who
:04:44. > :04:48.say, we have screwed up and got this wrong. We have not been representing
:04:49. > :04:52.the views and interests of the large part of our population. And those
:04:53. > :05:00.who say no, these are the Barbarians. The outcome of the
:05:01. > :05:06.debate and the future of politics depends on it. You mention Ukip,
:05:07. > :05:11.John Rees-Evans, who are the people left behind, why are they
:05:12. > :05:16.antipathetic to the liberal consensus? Frankly because the elite
:05:17. > :05:23.liberal, highly educated people who think they represent the ordinary
:05:24. > :05:25.people and who often campaign this fiercely to help ordinary people,
:05:26. > :05:33.frankly don't understand ordinary people. You do? I think Ukip is most
:05:34. > :05:40.in touch with the ordinary people and that was proved on the 23rd of
:05:41. > :05:43.June last year. On the 22nd of June, three quarters of our allegedly
:05:44. > :05:48.representative elected people in parliament came out in favour of
:05:49. > :05:52.remaining in the European Union. The next day, we proved quite clearly,
:05:53. > :05:58.the majority of people in this country want people out. You've got
:05:59. > :06:04.kicked in the backside in Stoke? That is obvious. How would you
:06:05. > :06:07.characterise the beliefs of the ordinary people who are at odds with
:06:08. > :06:13.the liberal elite, what do they believe, what do they think? They
:06:14. > :06:17.want to be left alone to work hard, to support their family, run their
:06:18. > :06:24.own country and not be interfered with by, you know, foreign agendas.
:06:25. > :06:30.The ordinary British person respects other nations, is friendly to
:06:31. > :06:33.foreigners coming here, wants to treat people decently, but believes
:06:34. > :06:39.our elected representatives whose salaries they pay and who they
:06:40. > :06:41.elect, have a primary responsibility, and moral
:06:42. > :06:45.responsibility to look after the interests primarily of the people of
:06:46. > :06:54.this country and not the people of other countries. Do you want to come
:06:55. > :06:57.in here? I agree there is a disconnect between political elite
:06:58. > :07:03.and everyone else, and I think that has happened over the years, but the
:07:04. > :07:07.answer isn't to say, they are wrong, they are right and this division
:07:08. > :07:13.between the elite and everyone else is to say, what is underlying that
:07:14. > :07:17.isn't an understanding of immigration and what is happening,
:07:18. > :07:21.but economic anxiety, what has happened is you call them a liberal
:07:22. > :07:25.elite and they focus on a progressive agenda in terms of gay
:07:26. > :07:31.marriage and equality, which is a good thing, but they have ignored
:07:32. > :07:35.issues of economic equality. They have ignored that they have
:07:36. > :07:39.continuously cut taxes for corporations, they are hitting the
:07:40. > :07:44.poorest the most. Why are some people who are uncomfortable with
:07:45. > :07:47.changes in our society, why are they uncomfortable, why haven't they
:07:48. > :07:58.adapted and gone on with the general flow? Faiza Shaheen, do you want to
:07:59. > :08:01.answer that? Some people are not comfortable, we need the
:08:02. > :08:07.conversation. What is the conversation? People say this to me,
:08:08. > :08:10.I am worried about immigration and I think it is taking jobs. It is
:08:11. > :08:17.understanding why it is. My answer is, tell me about your workplace,
:08:18. > :08:21.what has happened? Tell me about your neighbourhood, what has
:08:22. > :08:25.happened? Sometimes the isn't a story about immigration, sometimes
:08:26. > :08:30.there is. A very often, these people are coming in and undercutting
:08:31. > :08:35.wages. But when you look at who is allowing that to happen, it is the
:08:36. > :08:42.bosses. It is a misplaced anger. Are they misinformed? It was the bankers
:08:43. > :08:47.that crashed the economy, we have to remember why this stuff has
:08:48. > :08:55.happened. It is because of an economic liberal elite, not just
:08:56. > :08:58.progressive. John, come back in. Say you have a company and you are
:08:59. > :09:03.competing in your industry against your competitors and you have this
:09:04. > :09:08.situation where the government has allowed our labour market to be
:09:09. > :09:13.massively oversaturated, driven down wages. You have got to compete, you
:09:14. > :09:19.want to drop your operating costs. You may be the most patriotically is
:09:20. > :09:26.on in the country, but it is deliberately possible to pay more to
:09:27. > :09:30.a local person than it is to be someone from abroad. The government
:09:31. > :09:40.has said we will control immigration, not oversaturated the
:09:41. > :09:44.job's market. I didn't get a chance to make my point. Patriotically
:09:45. > :09:52.employers... Patriotically employers? Patriotically employers,
:09:53. > :09:59.the type that Faiza Shaheen is saying the cause of the employment
:10:00. > :10:03.of foreigners rather than locals, if the government controlled
:10:04. > :10:09.immigration we would be on a more even playing field. You cannot blame
:10:10. > :10:14.the bosses, they don't control immigration. We are setting the
:10:15. > :10:19.debate up in an narrow way, but there is only one answer, the
:10:20. > :10:22.dispossessed taking control? No, they are giving more control over to
:10:23. > :10:27.those who have fundamentally exploited them. The election of
:10:28. > :10:32.Donald Trump in the United States of America is about many things. Is he
:10:33. > :10:36.going to drain the swamp, make circumstances better for the
:10:37. > :10:43.American worker or is he going to self and rich? Is the exploitative?
:10:44. > :10:49.Creme De La Creme he is exploitative. When we remove
:10:50. > :10:53.political economy from the arguments, we make it about
:10:54. > :10:59.constraining the circumstances of the debate. Are people being conned?
:11:00. > :11:03.People are frustrated they exist in a precarious existence. There are
:11:04. > :11:08.much greater problems they face and they look to the wrong arguments.
:11:09. > :11:13.They look to the wrong causes and they look to symptoms of their
:11:14. > :11:17.exploitation, they don't look to the global financial crisis. People are
:11:18. > :11:23.being fooled, people are being conned and people are being
:11:24. > :11:30.exploited? People like this gentleman here. You can put your
:11:31. > :11:37.hand down now. A couple of years ago a Tory MP was sacked more or less
:11:38. > :11:44.for calling somebody a pleb. Why don't people talking like this just
:11:45. > :11:49.call us plebs, because I am a populist. The way people are talking
:11:50. > :11:53.like this, that I have lived through some halcyon world for the last 50
:11:54. > :11:59.years of my life since I started voting. It hasn't been like that.
:12:00. > :12:05.These politicians, they have led us down roads from the very beginning.
:12:06. > :12:09.It started in 64 when I voted to join the Common market and I was
:12:10. > :12:13.told a pack of lies then. It carried on with Harold Poulsen further on,
:12:14. > :12:19.the pound in your pocket when the pound was being devalued. Do you
:12:20. > :12:25.think they are lying to you? Of course they are, the way they talk
:12:26. > :12:33.down to, it is unbelievable. David Goodhart, that has distilled how
:12:34. > :12:35.people feel? A lot of people that run the political parties, the
:12:36. > :12:42.openness of the kind that has evolved over the last 20, 25 years,
:12:43. > :12:45.much more globalisation, European Union, freedom of movement, all of
:12:46. > :12:52.these things work for some people and don't work so well for other
:12:53. > :12:55.people. What Faiza Shaheen saying about employers, perfectly
:12:56. > :12:59.illustrates the rise of populism because people on the left say to
:13:00. > :13:03.people know, you don't feel that, look at this. They keep wanting to
:13:04. > :13:11.change the subject, which is why people think the centre-left parties
:13:12. > :13:16.don't represent them. You are right about employers. The national social
:13:17. > :13:20.contracts in employment have become disregarded. The amount of money
:13:21. > :13:25.employers spend on training in the last 20 years has fallen by one
:13:26. > :13:30.third. There is a reserve army of labour they can just take from
:13:31. > :13:34.continental Europe. Do you realise how many construction
:13:35. > :13:38.apprenticeships began last year? Just 8000. We are meant to be
:13:39. > :13:43.building millions of houses and we are not educating and training
:13:44. > :13:49.people to do it. We have moved from the situation in the 1970s where we
:13:50. > :13:54.had a trade surplus of 20 million and now we have a trade deficit of 5
:13:55. > :14:00.billion. To tell people we are not seeing decline, people are seeing
:14:01. > :14:04.it. But are they blaming that decline on the international
:14:05. > :14:06.financial markets? Are they blaming it on the super-rich who are
:14:07. > :14:14.exploiting them? Or, are they blaming the people close by? We all
:14:15. > :14:18.want to buy cheap goods that are made elsewhere? Of course we should
:14:19. > :14:21.be doing something about globalisation, but the story that
:14:22. > :14:26.has emerged is about those people that have lost, turning against each
:14:27. > :14:30.other. When we talk about the pilots, it is not just the white
:14:31. > :14:36.working class, the white working class is multiracial. Cleaning,
:14:37. > :14:41.caring and those are low paid jobs. Instead of this group coming
:14:42. > :14:45.together and saying, we want more representation, we want to make sure
:14:46. > :14:49.policies of their two protectors and we don't have zero hours
:14:50. > :14:54.contracts... We have taken so much out of politics.
:14:55. > :15:08.We're doing an enquiry into the growth of technocracy. So many
:15:09. > :15:12.things have been taken out of the... Technocrats are inevitably anywhere
:15:13. > :15:16.people. People with the instincts of the highly educated, the preferences
:15:17. > :15:21.of the highly educated. This has not a democracy. People are saying, we
:15:22. > :15:30.want some of it back. We mention Trump. What is it you like about
:15:31. > :15:35.Donald Trump? The fact is, what you said... I would like to ask about
:15:36. > :15:39.Donald Trump? What she said is correct, what Faiza said is correct.
:15:40. > :15:47.We are not looking at the real enemy and we are arguing amongst herself.
:15:48. > :15:50.Organisations like Gideon's educates people about this. I have read a
:15:51. > :15:55.couple of his white papers. What they teach is that one of the causes
:15:56. > :16:02.in the reduction in employment is the automated tendency, this is
:16:03. > :16:09.about Trump. OK. He has an automated tendency. What is it you like about
:16:10. > :16:13.him? We have not got a lot of time. Because he wants to reduce
:16:14. > :16:18.regulation. If you take away regulations, you're harming the
:16:19. > :16:21.people, that is what people think. That is nonsense. You take away
:16:22. > :16:26.regulations and you give small businesses the opportunity is to
:16:27. > :16:30.compete. Does he represent the ordinary man and woman? He is
:16:31. > :16:36.fighting for them. He knows how to create jobs and make money. You do
:16:37. > :16:41.not have to like the man. But you have to acknowledge she knows how to
:16:42. > :16:44.create jobs. He knows how to make money critically affect -- pretty
:16:45. > :16:52.effectively as well. Michael is over here. I do not think Trump's
:16:53. > :16:57.admissions are promising. We have international economies and national
:16:58. > :17:04.politics. One camp is to make things at the level of the nation state, to
:17:05. > :17:13.return power to politics. This is the Trumps, the Ukips of the world.
:17:14. > :17:17.The power is no longer there. Trump's solution, opening coalmines
:17:18. > :17:20.again, that is the past, not the future. We need to be more
:17:21. > :17:27.imaginative if we want a better tomorrow. This gentleman, hello.
:17:28. > :17:31.People like Trump and Theresa May to an extent in this country, Theresa
:17:32. > :17:39.May has seen an opportunity with a very weak opposition in the Labour
:17:40. > :17:47.Party, the votes have been haemorrhaging to Ukip. She is trying
:17:48. > :17:51.to take over the reins from Ukip. Her rhetoric is about trying to
:17:52. > :17:55.increase the Tory vote might rather than what is good for the
:17:56. > :18:00.dispossessed. She talks about the just about managing. The black
:18:01. > :18:04.T-shirt. Good morning. We have heard a lot about misplaced anger. I agree
:18:05. > :18:11.with those sort of sentiment but how do we deal with this? We have heard
:18:12. > :18:16.about all these facts and figures, alternative facts, fake news as it
:18:17. > :18:19.is called, bandied around. I am a teacher. I think the key to this is
:18:20. > :18:23.to get young people to think critically about what they're
:18:24. > :18:28.hearing and seeing. I have brought some of my students here today. That
:18:29. > :18:36.is what we do, we think critically, so they are resilient to some of the
:18:37. > :18:37.so-called facts and figures. It a vital lesson. Absolutely.
:18:38. > :18:42.APPLAUSE Have people been lied to? I think
:18:43. > :18:47.that we should trust people to be able to think critically about what
:18:48. > :18:50.they are being told. But the idea that the solution is education, that
:18:51. > :18:55.somehow if we just educate children to be able to see through the other
:18:56. > :19:00.side, which is all lies, and Arisaig, which is the truth, that we
:19:01. > :19:04.will solve the problems. Your point is important. We have depoliticise
:19:05. > :19:10.the massive range of what used to be the bread-and-butter of politics.
:19:11. > :19:15.And older left-wing idea was that any cook can govern, there is this
:19:16. > :19:20.idea that politics and economic sets something that every day people
:19:21. > :19:25.should be able to understand. Now we have outsourced those questions to
:19:26. > :19:29.technocrats. That is not enough people any more. Instead of
:19:30. > :19:33.understanding that, the left has dumbed down. The conversation is
:19:34. > :19:39.about symbolic things, about language. It is not speaking to
:19:40. > :19:43.everyday people. I completely agree. Lots of these questions, any
:19:44. > :19:51.economics and politics, it has been siphoned away from people. We're not
:19:52. > :19:53.having that conversation in. I would agree about the lack of
:19:54. > :19:56.representation among MPs from people from working-class backgrounds.
:19:57. > :20:00.Black communities are heavily underrepresented in government. I
:20:01. > :20:04.think we agree on that point. My point is that this narrative of
:20:05. > :20:10.divide and rule, blaming the immigrants, is not helping. We need
:20:11. > :20:18.to think about how we come together. The left would say, Syriza are good,
:20:19. > :20:25.Kadima are bad. It is the wrong sort of populism. I do not speak for the
:20:26. > :20:30.left. The left is lots of different people, as is the right. My point is
:20:31. > :20:33.we do not have the political leaders that will come forward and really
:20:34. > :20:38.tell us the story of how we can work. And we do work. This is the
:20:39. > :20:43.world you do not see. Working-class people are growing up together,
:20:44. > :20:48.going to school together, people are marrying each other. That is not the
:20:49. > :20:53.Liberal elite. We see that in working-class communities as well.
:20:54. > :20:57.It is about the pace of change. Those people who feel comfortable
:20:58. > :21:00.with change, because they have achieved identities, done well at
:21:01. > :21:06.school, they have successful careers. They can deal with it. Lots
:21:07. > :21:13.of people see rapid change as a kind of loss. What kind of change the
:21:14. > :21:18.scene, not just economically, social change? This is not so much about
:21:19. > :21:22.material things. This is about no longer feeling your valued by
:21:23. > :21:29.society. All the value has gone on the cognitive elite, people who well
:21:30. > :21:33.in exams. It is also about group attachments. People do not feel
:21:34. > :21:37.gripped attachments. They do not play such a high value a national
:21:38. > :21:41.citizenship because they do not need it so much. For a lot of people, it
:21:42. > :21:46.is part of the security and familiarity that people want. Is
:21:47. > :21:51.this generational, because disproportionately older people
:21:52. > :21:56.voted for Brexit? I do not think so. James Tredwell. Surely it is about
:21:57. > :22:01.both. We are having these old comparisons of left and right. One
:22:02. > :22:06.of the themes about the left, the political left and right, is how
:22:07. > :22:08.close together they have become. Where is the political
:22:09. > :22:12.representation for what would have been the old side of the left to
:22:13. > :22:18.say, what we need is national investment, we do not need
:22:19. > :22:22.austerity, we need a different set? Even now, to represent old-style
:22:23. > :22:29.social democracy, the welfare state, it is made out as if it is from
:22:30. > :22:32.North Korea. There has been an absolute conversion that makes
:22:33. > :22:39.neoliberalism and neoliberal capitalism the only economic system.
:22:40. > :22:43.Is there a way back? It is not neoliberalism. When investment has
:22:44. > :22:47.happened, it has not necessarily connected to the people who should
:22:48. > :22:51.have benefited. That is where Faiza is right, it is the level of
:22:52. > :22:56.understanding that our politicians have of meeting the needs of the
:22:57. > :23:00.people they are serving. The last word. There are real issues for us
:23:01. > :23:05.to be grappling with. People do not like the changes that are coming in
:23:06. > :23:14.the future. Tony Blair was on the Andrew Marr programme this morning.
:23:15. > :23:16.Is there a way back for the Blairite Centre? I hope not.
:23:17. > :23:18.If you have something to say about that debate,
:23:19. > :23:21.log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, and follow the link to where you can
:23:22. > :23:26.We're also debating live this morning in Cardiff: Does
:23:27. > :23:31.Get tweeting or emailing on those topics now or send us any other
:23:32. > :23:34.ideas or thoughts you may have about the programme.
:23:35. > :23:40.Tomorrow, it's International Happiness Day.
:23:41. > :23:44.Don't worry, being happy is not being made compulsory...yet.
:23:45. > :23:48.But governments are increasingly interested in measuring
:23:49. > :23:50.their nation's happiness levels and probing why some countries
:23:51. > :23:56.Denmark tops the league table of happiest countries.
:23:57. > :24:02.The UK is 23rd out of 157 nations, beaten by the Scandinavians,
:24:03. > :24:04.the Dutch, Austria, Germany, Belgium, Ireland, the North
:24:05. > :24:07.Americans and even some South American countries.
:24:08. > :24:21.And the UK itself has happiness high and low spots,
:24:22. > :24:23.with the Welsh borough of Blaenau Gwent, here
:24:24. > :24:26.in South Wales, having one of the biggest gaps between people
:24:27. > :24:31.Liverpool, Sunderland and Rotherham are similarly miserable.
:24:32. > :24:39.Well, researchers have found that the regions in Britain
:24:40. > :24:42.with the highest "wellbeing inequality" were more likely
:24:43. > :24:58.This will link to first debate. Michael, when you're talking about
:24:59. > :25:02.happiness, you said earlier run, it is a positive conscious state. The
:25:03. > :25:07.easiest way to understand happiness is anything which feels good to you.
:25:08. > :25:11.Unhappiness is anything which feels bad. Elation and contentment are
:25:12. > :25:15.different types of positive states, anger and fear are different kinds
:25:16. > :25:20.of unhappy states. We all have those at different times of the day. I
:25:21. > :25:25.like being with my family, walking the dog, playing my guitar. It makes
:25:26. > :25:37.me happy. When I am playing my guitar, the rest of the family are
:25:38. > :25:40.not happy. Yes, we should be looking at how to maximise happiness
:25:41. > :25:42.overall. How do you do that? Where we can really start is by trying to
:25:43. > :25:46.understand what happiness is, and how it works. The standout fight
:25:47. > :25:50.from the happiness literature, we have been collecting data on this
:25:51. > :25:54.for the last 60 years. The most surprising thing is that happiness
:25:55. > :25:59.has not increased. Self-reports of how satisfied people are with their
:26:00. > :26:03.lives, it has not increased. It has not the crease? It has not
:26:04. > :26:08.increased. It has stayed flat. Despite the fact we are much richer,
:26:09. > :26:09.much healthier, we live longer, despite what you might read in the
:26:10. > :26:29.daily Mail, we are safer than ever before,
:26:30. > :26:31.we have better technology. We have everything which we think should
:26:32. > :26:34.make life better, apart from happiness. That should prompt us to
:26:35. > :26:36.as questions about what is going on. What do we do about this? The
:26:37. > :26:38.government are taking this seriously. They are setting out
:26:39. > :26:40.think-tanks, they are going into schools, they are talking about
:26:41. > :26:43.mindfulness in schools? Allgood? It sounds really good, and that is part
:26:44. > :26:45.of the reason we are talking about it now. Who's going to say, we
:26:46. > :26:51.should make everybody miserable. No one say that. I find it interesting.
:26:52. > :26:56.You would almost take the boxes of the claims that people make. I have
:26:57. > :27:02.wrote a book about it. Why have they become so powerful and why are they
:27:03. > :27:06.made in the same over over? One of those is the so-called paradox of
:27:07. > :27:09.prosperity. Happiness levels has stayed the same in spite of
:27:10. > :27:14.increased technology, all these things that should make us happy,
:27:15. > :27:18.increased wealth. But they never say, in spite of the fact that in
:27:19. > :27:22.the United States blacks can drink out of the same water fountain,
:27:23. > :27:27.still no happier, women have more freedom, still no happier. They do
:27:28. > :27:32.not make that argument. Why do we always choose those particular
:27:33. > :27:36.things? It reflects the fact we do not have a positive vision for
:27:37. > :27:42.society any more. We are disoriented from those things that used to be,
:27:43. > :27:45.wealth, well for the population, it will set people free, generalising.
:27:46. > :27:51.That is something that the left and right used to agree on. Could
:27:52. > :27:53.capitalism deliver the goods, that was the disagreement. Now it is
:27:54. > :27:58.difficult to think of a left-wing position that sees wealth in a
:27:59. > :28:05.positive way. The debate about prosperity becomes a bipartisan
:28:06. > :28:08.thing. Most people can agree on it. It depends on this view of
:28:09. > :28:13.happiness. Acquired characteristics? My parents got an eight on the
:28:14. > :28:17.happiness scale. I was born in the 1980s, so I should be and nine.
:28:18. > :28:22.Absolutely not. Everyone is born into a world that is new to them.
:28:23. > :28:27.You do not build on the happiness level. Does GDP have something to do
:28:28. > :28:33.with it, the wealth of the nation? People get over obsessed with GDP.
:28:34. > :28:36.In the 1960s, Robert Kennedy said, GDP measures everything except the
:28:37. > :28:41.things that make our existence worthwhile. It is not a big-screen
:28:42. > :28:46.television, it is a work in the forest? It as a whole range of
:28:47. > :28:52.things. When we are constructing policy, we try to compartmentalise.
:28:53. > :29:04.People do not existing categories. People'slives are diverse. A whole
:29:05. > :29:07.range of things make you happy, the impact on the quality of your life.
:29:08. > :29:10.Are obsessive focus on GDP, the figures we need to increase, the
:29:11. > :29:13.numbers go up and everyone will be happy, of course, it is about the
:29:14. > :29:17.economy, but not just about the economy. There is this
:29:18. > :29:20.disorientation towards what that actually means. It reflects the
:29:21. > :29:25.depoliticisation of the economic ground. Leave that up to the
:29:26. > :29:32.technocrats. You worry about your family and your little microcosm.
:29:33. > :29:35.GDP really does matter. People trying to deflect attention from
:29:36. > :29:39.that, when the economy does not grow, who pays? It is not the only
:29:40. > :29:56.thing that matters. How can we construct public policy
:29:57. > :30:02.that recognises that nuances? It is an impossible dream, something that
:30:03. > :30:11.makes one group content will make another pretty miserable? If you
:30:12. > :30:15.limit the use of motor cars, a lot of environmentalists would say, yes,
:30:16. > :30:19.get in there. People trying to get to work, people on the school run,
:30:20. > :30:29.petrol heads would be very arrestable. Indeed. I was hoping we
:30:30. > :30:36.would stick to your guitar playing. Relating to what was going on, we
:30:37. > :30:41.can think about GDP, a big picture measure of how society is doing.
:30:42. > :30:47.When we can think about the distribution of happiness in it. You
:30:48. > :30:50.began by talking about Denmark, routinely top of the world happiness
:30:51. > :30:58.index. What is it about Denmark we don't have. Denmark is one of the
:30:59. > :31:03.most equal countries in the world. So you are talking about something
:31:04. > :31:07.which you can reliably say people have a stake in. And traditionally
:31:08. > :31:12.thinking about public goods and the kind of society they are, which is
:31:13. > :31:19.more collectivist than ours has now become. Denmark has a way of
:31:20. > :31:23.thinking about a shared project, it is not trouble-free, it doesn't iron
:31:24. > :31:27.out your difficulties, but it is more meaningful to talk about
:31:28. > :31:35.happiness in Denmark because it's not so unequally distribution
:31:36. > :31:40.culling distributed in society. In Wales, why do people feel like they
:31:41. > :31:43.have been left behind or get a raw deal? Because they live in a
:31:44. > :31:49.society, firstly where there are huge disparities in wealth between
:31:50. > :31:54.them and others at the other end of the scale. There is a very poor
:31:55. > :31:59.public conversation. Is it pretty much coveting what other people
:32:00. > :32:02.have? It will feel relative, you will be happier in a society where
:32:03. > :32:09.you are in the same game as everybody else. But somebody who is
:32:10. > :32:18.not in the same game, but happiness has gone? It is about a society that
:32:19. > :32:21.places a huge amount of emphasis on your individual success being tied
:32:22. > :32:25.to your place in the consumer marketplace. If you fail to have the
:32:26. > :32:32.latest items, you don't have a value. That creates a continuing,
:32:33. > :32:40.nagging dissatisfaction for people, they continually feel that... I
:32:41. > :32:45.don't think that is a problem. We Prodl attire is the dissatisfaction
:32:46. > :32:56.and the feelings. Happy people quote Karl Marx, house might be great or
:32:57. > :33:03.small, as long as other houses are equally small. Then people were in a
:33:04. > :33:12.castle and then it is reduced to a halt and we say, Karl Marx says
:33:13. > :33:19.don't covet other people, but what Karl Marx is saying is that cattle
:33:20. > :33:23.could be yours, go out and take it. The happiness people, I love that.
:33:24. > :33:30.Where would we be without sadness as well? We would have no arts, where
:33:31. > :33:37.would Marcy B. Liz, I know you want to talk, you work in companies to
:33:38. > :33:42.try to get people to focus on well-being, content must
:33:43. > :33:47.unhappiness? I will be accused of being part of this happiness people
:33:48. > :33:52.think. I agree with the fact that GDP will focus on economic growth
:33:53. > :33:57.per se, we need economic growth when growth is needed, there is a
:33:58. > :34:02.brilliant economist who say, we have an economy grows whether or not we
:34:03. > :34:07.thrive. We an economy where we thrive, whether or not it grows. It
:34:08. > :34:13.feels like a small shift, but it is huge. At the moment, everything we
:34:14. > :34:16.do, health, economy, the private sector and the public sector is
:34:17. > :34:21.judged on whether or not it contributes to economic growth. In
:34:22. > :34:26.some spaces we need economic growth, in Blaenau Gwent, people desperately
:34:27. > :34:31.need growth in economy that benefits them. But we should all be judging
:34:32. > :34:34.ourselves, each other, our businesses and politicians by
:34:35. > :34:37.whether or not they are doing the sorts of things that help us to
:34:38. > :34:45.thrive as individuals or communities. It is an everybody
:34:46. > :34:50.thing. We need to make that shift. Gideon, there are people who think
:34:51. > :34:56.this is a load of... Careful what word I use here, baloney, they think
:34:57. > :35:04.it is a bit mind-numbing. If this can raise our content levels to
:35:05. > :35:09.Denmark, that is a good thing? Broadly, I would agree. We have to
:35:10. > :35:14.be careful on how simple we think that is. What we did to promote one
:35:15. > :35:30.group's happiness will be at the expense of another. It is not a
:35:31. > :35:34.fluffy thing. What it recognises is that actually we have a piece of
:35:35. > :35:39.legislation in Wales which recognises well-being. Don't talk
:35:40. > :35:44.about happiness per say, but happiness and well-being is
:35:45. > :35:47.intrinsically linked. We have the well-being of future generations
:35:48. > :35:53.act. We have to think about the social, economic and environment and
:35:54. > :35:59.cultural situations. So you can put that in public policy-making terms.
:36:00. > :36:04.You cannot legislate to make your inner being happy, but you can take
:36:05. > :36:11.decisions in a way... What do you want to do that he cannot do now to
:36:12. > :36:14.make is happier? If you think about the way we construct towns and
:36:15. > :36:19.villages. Will we do it in a way that will build a whole load of
:36:20. > :36:22.concrete monstrosities that don't have access to public space
:36:23. > :36:26.facilitate community interaction or engagement. Which don't have
:36:27. > :36:32.environmentally friendly public transport links. Or, will we
:36:33. > :36:38.construct them in a way that thinks about those different facets and
:36:39. > :36:42.relate back to well-being and happiness. That is what they were
:36:43. > :36:47.doing when they built Milton Keynes. The lady on the back row, it is
:36:48. > :36:54.great to be in Wales, a lot others Celtic people are not happy unless
:36:55. > :37:00.we are sad. Good morning. Are you one of the happiness people? I think
:37:01. > :37:04.I am a pragmatist, a realist. Whilst people don't have employment, food
:37:05. > :37:09.on the table and people don't feel safe and they don't have any meaning
:37:10. > :37:16.in their life, when communities are destroyed and weak into fourth
:37:17. > :37:21.generations... People are starving in East Africa? Blaenau Gwent, there
:37:22. > :37:26.are the food banks, Cardiff, all over South Wales, austerity is
:37:27. > :37:30.biting really hard. You cannot have happiness, you cannot have happiness
:37:31. > :37:37.if your fundamental basic human needs are not being met and that is
:37:38. > :37:42.a political issue. John Rees-Evans, what about this idea of people
:37:43. > :37:48.feeling they stifled. I know you say political has gone mad. What
:37:49. > :37:50.concerns me about this conversation, that is we are looking at
:37:51. > :37:56.circumstances as the cause of whether or not people are happy.
:37:57. > :38:00.Circumstances are important, but what is much more important is
:38:01. > :38:05.relationships. I know of somebody who has said that if he divorced his
:38:06. > :38:12.wife, he would be ?3500 better off each year. I think it is incredibly
:38:13. > :38:17.upsetting to me. This is because of government benefits and whatever.
:38:18. > :38:21.Legislation doesn't do anything to encourage people to stay married.
:38:22. > :38:25.The traditional values of this country what I believe have been
:38:26. > :38:34.responsible for our success, our prosperity. Family break-up... Is it
:38:35. > :38:39.same-sex relationships, relationships in communities. What
:38:40. > :38:47.is the type of relationship most people can identify with? Most
:38:48. > :38:51.people like marriage. Having positive relationships, healthy
:38:52. > :38:58.relationships is what makes us happy I merrily. Circumstances become a
:38:59. > :39:02.distant second. My have difficulty with the definition of happiness. An
:39:03. > :39:07.averaged out positive feeling, over a long period of time, I could
:39:08. > :39:11.understand. But maintaining relationships requires us to do
:39:12. > :39:16.things we don't feel good about. Doing our duty, working late at
:39:17. > :39:21.night to make sure we finish a project... Is a traditional marriage
:39:22. > :39:26.the bedrock of society... I thought you might respond like that.
:39:27. > :39:31.Relationships are important and do affect our happiness at an
:39:32. > :39:36.individual level. Well-being, taking it alongside measures of economic
:39:37. > :39:41.growth, it reminds us what it is for. Policymakers forget what it is
:39:42. > :39:46.for. It is not just about growing and it's not just about a segment of
:39:47. > :39:51.the population getting more money, it is about thinking overall what is
:39:52. > :39:55.happening. Are we creating the right environment for all people to
:39:56. > :40:03.flourish and have the chance of happiness? Last word, Michael. Are
:40:04. > :40:07.you happy with that debate? It has shown some of the things which are
:40:08. > :40:11.significant. There is this thought that if you focus on happiness, in
:40:12. > :40:20.means you are not caring about misery and people'slives. Stepford
:40:21. > :40:26.wives? What the literature is meant to shine a light on, you get a story
:40:27. > :40:32.of how inter-personal relationships are important, employment and
:40:33. > :40:41.unemployment is a driver of unhappiness. Open spaces? Yes, what
:40:42. > :40:45.comes out significantly is not the material things of the interpersonal
:40:46. > :40:51.relationships, it is mental health, so our relationships with ourselves.
:40:52. > :40:58.Not sidestepping anything of what she is talking about. That is the
:40:59. > :41:01.danger, it redefines inequality as a subjective things. And that is the
:41:02. > :41:02.debate over. Thank you very much indeed.
:41:03. > :41:07.You can join in all this morning's debates by logging
:41:08. > :41:09.on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions and following the link
:41:10. > :41:13.Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq
:41:14. > :41:16.Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too ?
:41:17. > :41:21.And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience at a future show you
:41:22. > :41:27.We're in Oxford next week, Brighton on April 2nd,
:41:28. > :41:34.Some of you may have heard or seen Thordis Elva and Tom Stranger
:41:35. > :41:37.discussing their book 'South of Forgiveness' on radio
:41:38. > :41:44.During a teenage romance in 1996, Tom, then 18,
:41:45. > :41:55.Now they both want people to understand the shame, blame,
:41:56. > :41:57.silence, and suffering they each went through and the difference
:41:58. > :42:00.forgiveness, decades later, has brought to each of them.
:42:01. > :42:18.Natalie, could you forgive, in that sense, in that way, somebody who has
:42:19. > :42:21.raped you? I think, the first thing is, in your introduction you said
:42:22. > :42:25.about the shame and the pain they both went through, which immediately
:42:26. > :42:30.says the pain of the rapist on the pain of the person who was raped are
:42:31. > :42:33.equal and something we should be caring about equally, when one has
:42:34. > :42:40.inflicted that on another. We have to be aware of that. Incredible
:42:41. > :42:45.thing about their story, the reason it has airtime, is not sadly about
:42:46. > :42:51.Thordis and her choices, for once a man has said I raped somebody and
:42:52. > :42:58.saying up -- standing up and saying that. We shouldn't be applauding
:42:59. > :43:04.that, it is horrific. Do you respect him for that? No, he is a rapist.
:43:05. > :43:08.One of the big issues, women are socialised to be forgiving, be kind
:43:09. > :43:12.and caring and not have anger. One of the things that is liberating for
:43:13. > :43:19.women is anger, rage and fearlessness. What I would say, my
:43:20. > :43:25.personal experience is, I did forgive. You were in an abusive
:43:26. > :43:31.relationship? Yes. Why and how did you forgive? When I talk about rage
:43:32. > :43:35.and anger, women are not given access or permission to rage and
:43:36. > :43:41.anger. We are socialised into having to forgive and socialised into
:43:42. > :43:44.saying, that is what you should do. We see women who forgive and kind
:43:45. > :43:52.loving and a better class of women and that is how this story has
:43:53. > :43:59.panned out between Thordis Elva and Tom Stranger. That is not a model I
:44:00. > :44:03.want to put out. Forgiveness can be liberating, but actually forgiveness
:44:04. > :44:07.can be a tool or weapon. For the majority of women it becomes a
:44:08. > :44:13.weapon to further perpetuate the suffering they have been subjected
:44:14. > :44:16.to. But it can be liberating. In my experience, it has been liberating
:44:17. > :44:21.but I wouldn't want to make it a model for how I live my life. What
:44:22. > :44:30.does it mean in your experience to forgive? Do you communicate that
:44:31. > :44:33.forgiveness to the other person, or are you internalising something, now
:44:34. > :44:37.I will move on and deal with it in a certain way? When I was with my
:44:38. > :44:42.ex-husband I thought forgiveness was accepting what ever he did to me,
:44:43. > :44:46.accepting his behaviour and then it will change if I love him enough.
:44:47. > :44:51.For a lot of women, that is the journey they have been none.
:44:52. > :44:55.Forgiveness for me, understanding forgiveness started by owning how
:44:56. > :44:59.terrible what he did to me was over a period of four years. Saying it is
:45:00. > :45:05.horrendous and it will affect me for the rest of my life and making it
:45:06. > :45:10.visible, the pain of that. Forgiveness is a form of denial.
:45:11. > :45:17.We need to be looking at them or longer term thing. Forgiveness is
:45:18. > :45:21.not nullifying quantities -- the consequences of someone's behaviour
:45:22. > :45:26.towards me. There are consequences. It is not about me communicating
:45:27. > :45:31.that he is forgiven, it is about me not wishing him harm, but putting
:45:32. > :45:36.safeguards in place to prevent him from hurting me. Finn, you are
:45:37. > :45:42.nodding. Do you agree? Could you forgive someone in the same way that
:45:43. > :45:47.Thordis has? The story of Thordis Elva is her own personal, individual
:45:48. > :45:53.journey. She states that in some ways that has helped her to feel
:45:54. > :45:58.more free. I suppose I am also interested in how we can free the
:45:59. > :46:03.whole of society from epidemic levels of male violence against
:46:04. > :46:08.women and children, because an estimated 80,000 rapes every year
:46:09. > :46:11.take place, over 400,000 sexual assaults, two women every week in
:46:12. > :46:17.this country murdered by a violent male partner. Forgiving is about
:46:18. > :46:22.self-help. It is a journey of self help. We should support women to do
:46:23. > :46:26.that and feel in control of themselves and their lives. I do not
:46:27. > :46:30.agree with scrutinising women even more than they are already
:46:31. > :46:35.scrutinised. As well as self-help, we need help from society, we need
:46:36. > :46:37.to heal the problems and fractures in society that cause these
:46:38. > :46:44.horrendous crimes in the first place. Why is there this epidemic as
:46:45. > :46:51.you put it? Because women are unequal. And men are socialised to
:46:52. > :46:57.have entitlement or women's bodies, to be allowed to do that, and that
:46:58. > :47:02.is perpetuated by a wider societal structure, which undermines women's
:47:03. > :47:07.sense of agency. That is what Tom Stranger said. He felt that as a
:47:08. > :47:12.man, it was a victory for him, he had a right over his girlfriend's
:47:13. > :47:16.body because he was dating her. They had been out on a night out, they
:47:17. > :47:21.had been drinking alcohol, and he would not be a proper young man if
:47:22. > :47:25.he did not have sex with her at the end of the night. He said himself he
:47:26. > :47:37.felt pressured, that he did not enjoy it greatly, but he felt that
:47:38. > :47:40.is what he was supposed to do, and it was what he deserved, as if the
:47:41. > :47:42.body of that woman was his birthright. That was his own words.
:47:43. > :47:46.Society allows that to happen. If you look at the other things that
:47:47. > :47:51.are defined as hate crimes, disability, race, misogyny is not a
:47:52. > :47:55.hate crime. On a daily basis, all of the women in this audience will have
:47:56. > :47:59.encountered some form of sexism, whether that is catcalling,
:48:00. > :48:05.something going on in work, a whole range of things. Is that not quite a
:48:06. > :48:09.leap from what we are talking about? THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:48:10. > :48:13.It is not. Could you forgive a terrorist? I also believe in
:48:14. > :48:17.rehabilitation, giving people chances. I agree with Tom Stranger
:48:18. > :48:22.speaking about what he has done. Can I picked up on that point. Peter,
:48:23. > :48:26.you were chief executive of the prison Fellowship. You visit people
:48:27. > :48:30.in prisons. Could you forgive someone who killed your child? It is
:48:31. > :48:41.a question I have asked myself a lot. I work with people who go into
:48:42. > :48:45.prison who have forgiven people who have killed their children. I think
:48:46. > :48:49.of a couple. They have been on this programme. They are amazing people.
:48:50. > :48:54.We kept a week, they have managed to go on that journey of forgiveness. I
:48:55. > :49:00.think they do it, because when we forgive, we look at the future, and
:49:01. > :49:05.we say, the past is the past, it needs punishing and dealing with, we
:49:06. > :49:09.do not see it did not happen, but we look to the future and say, I do not
:49:10. > :49:22.want to hold the sense of revenge in my heart. Does it not
:49:23. > :49:26.leave the person that you forgive, let them off the hook? It does the
:49:27. > :49:28.opposite. You cannot forgive unless you first admit that something that
:49:29. > :49:31.needs forgiving has happened. You must never minimise or try and take
:49:32. > :49:34.it away, say it did not matter in any way whatsoever. You say, this is
:49:35. > :49:38.horrible, but I will still choose to forgive. It requires a degree of
:49:39. > :49:44.remorse from the individual, as well. Not necessarily. We will come
:49:45. > :49:49.back to you in a minute, Peter. It requires a degree of remorse? In
:49:50. > :49:55.order to make that step towards forgiveness, someone needs to say, I
:49:56. > :49:59.have also done something pretty spectacularly wrong. I will hold my
:50:00. > :50:03.hands up to that. As a criminologist, I come across a lot
:50:04. > :50:07.of offenders and not all of them are willing to do that. I have concerns
:50:08. > :50:13.when you have government saying, we will force offenders to say sorry.
:50:14. > :50:18.That takes away the self recognition. Do you get fake
:50:19. > :50:23.remorse? I think you do. Some people are incredibly good at playing the
:50:24. > :50:30.system. A famous example, an Austrian serial killer who had been
:50:31. > :50:36.convicted of murder and came out. Who was it? He was an Austrian
:50:37. > :50:40.serial killer. He expressed Morrison became a famed penal reform
:50:41. > :50:44.correspondent. When he was doing that and talking about the level of
:50:45. > :50:49.the Morsi showed, he went on to kill more women before taking his own
:50:50. > :50:53.life. He built his reputation in part, at least, by expressing fake
:50:54. > :50:59.remorse. That is one of the problems. It is very difficult to
:51:00. > :51:04.subjectively get the extent with remorse, whether someone believes
:51:05. > :51:09.what they are saying. You have to define terms. Forgiveness can come
:51:10. > :51:13.in different ways. In the Christian faith, you talk about divine
:51:14. > :51:17.forgiveness, someone asking forgiveness from God, and that is
:51:18. > :51:22.freely given in terms of love. What you're talking about is a two-way
:51:23. > :51:25.restorative relationship. That is good. It affects the other person
:51:26. > :51:32.and gives them a chance to move on in their life. You can also forgive
:51:33. > :51:37.without ever talking to somebody. It is not a transaction? No. With a
:51:38. > :51:41.violent relationship, someone who has been hurt badly, that maybe the
:51:42. > :51:44.best thing. Is forgiveness the right for that?
:51:45. > :51:49.THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE Yes. That is the thing, a
:51:50. > :51:54.recognition that is for the individual. Forgiveness is to give
:51:55. > :51:59.and receive. I would say reconciliation is what you're
:52:00. > :52:05.talking about, when both parties come together. Forgiveness is about
:52:06. > :52:08.an attitude to that person. Go on. I am a counsellor. I have a
:52:09. > :52:13.wide-ranging age group of clients but I mainly work with children who
:52:14. > :52:18.have been victimised in some way. The key for them to start moving
:52:19. > :52:24.forward is to recognise that the event that happened, and no longer
:52:25. > :52:29.see themselves as a victim. Once they have given up that role, the
:52:30. > :52:34.person who carried out the act is no longer the perpetrator of their
:52:35. > :52:38.status. Maybe after that we can start looking at forgiveness if it
:52:39. > :52:45.is going to help them to move on. APPLAUSE
:52:46. > :52:50.Self-definition. Anyone else? The removal of shame is important. If a
:52:51. > :52:57.victim feels shame or responsibility themselves, that is bad for them. I
:52:58. > :53:00.totally take on board that. There is a process that you have to
:53:01. > :53:05.necessarily go through that recognises that you're not
:53:06. > :53:08.responsible. Whether that requires you to forgive the individual that
:53:09. > :53:12.has perpetrated a crime? What is wrong with saying that
:53:13. > :53:17.someone has been victimised. We need to take the stigma away from lots of
:53:18. > :53:21.crimes and especially sexual violence. If someone can go into
:53:22. > :53:26.work in the morning and say, I was mugged the other week, I had this
:53:27. > :53:34.amount stolen, that is terrible, I hope it goes all right. We would not
:53:35. > :53:38.say, I am not a victim. Friends of mine, they have been debating this,
:53:39. > :53:43.who have been sexually abuse, they do not want to be called victims.
:53:44. > :53:47.They are survivors. Yes, they live to see another day, they are
:53:48. > :53:52.survivors. We also need to acknowledge that they are victims of
:53:53. > :53:56.crime. We need to remove the stigma that surrounds that. The shame that
:53:57. > :54:03.women are meant to feel is part of the burden that they alone have to
:54:04. > :54:07.carry. It takes away from their happiness. What about children of
:54:08. > :54:12.whatever gender who are abuse? I agree. Anthony, we heard from Peter,
:54:13. > :54:19.a man who is inspired by his faith. He was talking about the forgiveness
:54:20. > :54:25.of Jesus. Jesus forgive. Yes, but it is far more complex than we have
:54:26. > :54:35.been saying. The issue is not just about gender. It seems to me that
:54:36. > :54:39.forgiveness is overrated. Most people would quote the words of
:54:40. > :54:44.Jesus on the cross, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they
:54:45. > :54:49.do. That is a great example of unilateral forgiveness, they would
:54:50. > :54:54.argue. It is not an example of forgiveness, it is an example of
:54:55. > :54:59.Jesus claims -- Jesus praying for the good of those who were telling
:55:00. > :55:07.him. He did not pray for anyone. He prayed that in the course of time
:55:08. > :55:15.God would forgive. It is a prayer that lays aside Justice in terms of
:55:16. > :55:19.what God is doing. But divine forgiveness, as with human
:55:20. > :55:23.forgiveness, is always proceeded with repentance, genuine sorrow that
:55:24. > :55:29.is lived out. As has been rightly said, how do we know what genuine
:55:30. > :55:35.repentance is? There is a fantastic book by an American, it is called
:55:36. > :55:41.Faking It, in which the author describes how clever people are in
:55:42. > :55:45.faking repentance. Repentance has to be demonstrated, it has to be
:55:46. > :55:51.appropriate, it has to be modelled over a long period of time. Within
:55:52. > :55:55.that context, there can be a movement towards forgiveness. You
:55:56. > :55:59.mention justice. Too often people do not see justice. If we are talking
:56:00. > :56:03.about women and children and the difficulties they face in taking
:56:04. > :56:09.cases forward, the low numbers we have for rape convictions in this
:56:10. > :56:13.country, Justice holds people back, not just as individuals, but the
:56:14. > :56:18.whole of society is held back by not giving justice to who have been
:56:19. > :56:20.victimised. How would you increase the number of rate convictions in
:56:21. > :56:28.this country? I would improve the police. -- rape convictions. There
:56:29. > :56:32.are problems around the number of people who report rape. There has
:56:33. > :56:38.been problems with the police designating rapes as no crime. The
:56:39. > :56:42.CPS does not take cases forward based on stereotypical assumptions
:56:43. > :56:47.about women's sexuality. What was she wearing, had she been drinking?
:56:48. > :56:53.We are still dealing with these stereotypes. You have been listening
:56:54. > :57:01.with great interest. What do you think? I think there is an issue
:57:02. > :57:05.right now around moral panic, all around rape. Do you understand the
:57:06. > :57:12.definition of that? Yes, and I am really sorry. How do you come up
:57:13. > :57:17.against that? What do you mean by moral panic? I think there is a
:57:18. > :57:22.tendency now to suddenly, I do not disagree that rape is a horrible
:57:23. > :57:25.thing, but there is a tendency to make the barriers around what
:57:26. > :57:30.constitutes harassment fuzzy. We build up this idea that there is a
:57:31. > :57:35.massive epidemic of male violence, but what has been defined as male
:57:36. > :57:39.violence is a little funny. That is because there is an epidemic of male
:57:40. > :57:49.violence. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:57:50. > :57:54.Excuse me, everybody. Ashley. That is why I was afraid to
:57:55. > :57:58.say anything. When I was a teenager, walking down the street in the days
:57:59. > :58:02.of Britney Spears, with the tummy tuck, ID cards would go by and
:58:03. > :58:09.whistle. One of my friends turned around and said, thank you. I said,
:58:10. > :58:12.you're not supposed to like that. There is a little bit of bad faith
:58:13. > :58:17.around these things. We are supposed to be really offended by male
:58:18. > :58:22.attention, but actually, some women in male attention. You have changed
:58:23. > :58:27.what you're talking about. Ladies and gentlemen, what I need to do, I
:58:28. > :58:32.need to try and get in touch with the BBC and get an extension on this
:58:33. > :58:36.debate. We have just entered some fascinating territory but we are out
:58:37. > :58:40.of time. Thank you very much indeed for your contributions this morning.
:58:41. > :58:42.As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.
:58:43. > :58:45.Next week we're in Oxford, so do join us then.
:58:46. > :58:49.But for now, it's goodbye from Cardiff and have a great Sunday.