:00:00. > :00:28.and the ageless wisdom of ancient beliefs.
:00:29. > :00:30.Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
:00:31. > :00:33.Today we're live from Patcham High School in Brighton.
:00:34. > :00:40.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
:00:41. > :00:43.This Wednesday Mrs May pulled the trigger on Article 50,
:00:44. > :00:48.the UK's formal application to leave the European Union.
:00:49. > :00:51.Now the wrangling starts to decide the precise terms of Britain's
:00:52. > :00:54.divorce from the EU and of any future relationship between us
:00:55. > :00:59.The UK will no longer be a member of the European single market,
:01:00. > :01:01.that's a direct consequence of the Leave side
:01:02. > :01:07.But Mrs May has also ruled out a so-called "soft" Brexit,
:01:08. > :01:12.where the UK would have access to the European Economic Area,
:01:13. > :01:14.just as Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein do in return
:01:15. > :01:17.for accepting freedom of movement, agreeing to play by the EU's rules
:01:18. > :01:24.Mrs May is opting for a "hard" Brexit, a "clean" one,
:01:25. > :01:27.a "real" one some would say, arguing this fits with Vote Leave's
:01:28. > :01:31.mantra of "take back control" and is the only way to halt freedom
:01:32. > :01:33.of movement from EU countries into the UK.
:01:34. > :01:36.But the Referendum did not ask the British people if they wanted
:01:37. > :01:47.The options posed were just leave or remain in the European Union.
:01:48. > :01:51.And the Conservative Party's manifesto, on which it was elected
:01:52. > :01:58.in 2015, as well as promising the right to vote on EU membership,
:01:59. > :02:01.also made much of the advantages of the Single Market to the UK:
:02:02. > :02:04."Our commitment to you", it said, is to "reclaim power from Brussels"
:02:05. > :02:07.and "safeguard British interests in the Single Market".
:02:08. > :02:10."We are clear about what we want from Europe," it went on,
:02:11. > :02:17.Yes to working together when we are stronger
:02:18. > :02:25.Does Mrs May have a mandate for a hard Brexit?
:02:26. > :02:37.Lucy? You worked with the stronger in Europe campaign. There you are.
:02:38. > :02:44.People voted to leave. For Brexit. Deal with it. As you say, they did
:02:45. > :02:49.vote to leave but the question on the ballot paper was do you want to
:02:50. > :02:53.remain or leave, not where do you want to go after so I think there is
:02:54. > :02:59.not a mandate for any kind of Brexit because the terms were not part of
:03:00. > :03:03.the referendum campaign. If you asked a lot of different Leave
:03:04. > :03:07.campaigners they set out a lot of different visions, some said let's
:03:08. > :03:11.stay in the single market and others said let's leave, if you asked a lot
:03:12. > :03:15.of people who voted to leave, if they were clear it meant leaving the
:03:16. > :03:20.single market and the customs unit, the potential issues which would
:03:21. > :03:28.come with that, would people be clear that is what they voted for? I
:03:29. > :03:33.don't think so. Matt, do you want another referendum? I think that is
:03:34. > :03:37.immaterial, I think it would be wise if we decided that Britain was
:03:38. > :03:42.hurtling off a cliff edge it would be nice to have the idea that we
:03:43. > :03:46.could apply the brakes. I do not understand the argument which is
:03:47. > :03:50.currently going about messages about enemies with them, the front page of
:03:51. > :03:55.the Daily Mail, the hard right of the Tory party is debate is over,
:03:56. > :04:01.democracy is a point of singularity never to be revisited after the 23rd
:04:02. > :04:05.of June. We know that democratic vote, I except many good reasons
:04:06. > :04:10.people voted why the dead... A lot of people voted on the basis of lies
:04:11. > :04:17.and misinformation and duplicity. I think once we know what the reality
:04:18. > :04:21.is and the consequences it would be entirely sensible and democratic for
:04:22. > :04:27.people to have an option to have a say again, either by referendum or
:04:28. > :04:31.general election. APPLAUSE What about this business of people
:04:32. > :04:36.voting on the basis of lies, do you think that is patronising? I think
:04:37. > :04:42.incredibly so, when people talk about people lying, what they talk
:04:43. > :04:46.about is the perceived gullibility of the public, thinking the public
:04:47. > :04:52.were duped into doing this. I think that is the underlying message, the
:04:53. > :04:57.idea that the belief in the Roxy is so strong they want to ask us again
:04:58. > :05:02.to get the right answer next time is completely undemocratic. Is there a
:05:03. > :05:06.mandate for hard Brexit, it's the biggest democratic mandate in
:05:07. > :05:15.British political history, people voted with their eyes wide open...
:05:16. > :05:19.52-48. That is how democracy works. If the question was about leaving
:05:20. > :05:26.the single market what do you think the answer would have been? It was
:05:27. > :05:35.clear, both sides told us it would mean leaving the single market. The
:05:36. > :05:39.principle that laws that govern this country should be made in this
:05:40. > :05:44.country, self-determination, you cannot have that within the single
:05:45. > :05:47.market. I will tell you where the condescension and patronising
:05:48. > :05:51.element of this is coming is from the people who are telling British
:05:52. > :05:56.people to shut up and put up, we have voted, move on. You did not
:05:57. > :06:01.shut up and put up after 1975 when he lost the first referendum. This
:06:02. > :06:05.is not the first one, it is the second. People have a right to
:06:06. > :06:08.debate and dissent and it's so condescending of three is made to
:06:09. > :06:15.pretend there is such a thing of the will of the British people. How long
:06:16. > :06:23.until we get the right answer? I think we are, I am against
:06:24. > :06:27.referendums, but generally speaking these are hugely complex issues and
:06:28. > :06:30.I don't feel qualified to have a say and I do not feel the confidence the
:06:31. > :06:35.British public knew what they were getting into. We are going to hear
:06:36. > :06:38.about the economy, nobody knows, that is the truth, nobody knows how
:06:39. > :06:44.this will play out so I argue when we do now let's have the chance to
:06:45. > :06:49.say again. Tom we might not know how this plays out for an awfully long
:06:50. > :06:56.time, that is the thing. Young people voted overwhelmingly to stay,
:06:57. > :07:05.73% of 18-24 -year-olds, this is about our children and grandchildren
:07:06. > :07:10.as well. Is there a mandate for Theresa May for those who will be
:07:11. > :07:14.alive when the true effects of this hit them? In terms of Brexit, it is
:07:15. > :07:20.a gift to young people whether they realise it or not. You have the
:07:21. > :07:23.chance to take part in a real democracy where you can determine
:07:24. > :07:30.the future of society. They should be dancing in the street. I think
:07:31. > :07:34.when it comes down, the point I want to make, is people talk about young
:07:35. > :07:39.people and Scotland and effectively it's an attempt to break up the vote
:07:40. > :07:42.and the electorate which is not how majoritarian democracy works. You
:07:43. > :07:51.see it when people talk about 40% voting remain, it's the equivalent
:07:52. > :07:55.of having a general election next week, the Conservatives win 70% and
:07:56. > :08:02.Theresa May says we will run the country five days a week, Jeremy
:08:03. > :08:07.Corbyn can have it on the weekend. I can see from your body language you
:08:08. > :08:11.do not like what you are hearing. No, I think the point about the
:08:12. > :08:16.Leave campaign was they had so many different positions, it was not at
:08:17. > :08:22.all clear we would definitely leave the single market. Does Theresa May
:08:23. > :08:25.have a mandate for the Brexit she is pushing through? No, there was no
:08:26. > :08:31.mandate because of that lack of clarity. It was not fought on
:08:32. > :08:35.specific terms, this is what it will look like. If you ask the leader of
:08:36. > :08:39.the Leave campaign, they had to get people over the line, they had to
:08:40. > :08:43.get people to vote to Leave. The rest of it is up to the politicians.
:08:44. > :08:47.That is what is disappointing for people like me who were on the
:08:48. > :08:51.Remain campaign and I cleared about what happens to the future of this
:08:52. > :08:56.country, what does the deal look like, how do we make sure trade is
:08:57. > :09:01.as free and frictionless as it was and nobody had a clear answer during
:09:02. > :09:06.the campaign and nobody does now either. There is no mandate because
:09:07. > :09:12.there was not that clarity. We are going to go to the audience, so many
:09:13. > :09:15.hands, that is what we like to see, those people who allegedly did not
:09:16. > :09:21.know what they were voting for. People who did not understand it.
:09:22. > :09:25.Let's investigate some of that. There is a moral and ethical debate
:09:26. > :09:30.about having a mandate and a lot of people Mark Littlewood, Ipsos Mori
:09:31. > :09:37.polling says 33% voted to leave because of immigration. David Davis
:09:38. > :09:45.said this week immigration may go up. You have a certain criteria as
:09:46. > :09:50.to who you would allow into the country without questions, who would
:09:51. > :09:56.that be? I would change the system so if you had a job offer of say
:09:57. > :10:00.?50,000 it's a decent paying job and we would be confident you will be a
:10:01. > :10:08.net contributor to the tax system. You are definitely in. 50,000?
:10:09. > :10:16.50,000. If it is a lower level, an average wage, you can come in but
:10:17. > :10:20.you might not qualify for the benefits the indigenous population
:10:21. > :10:24.qualify for. No housing benefit until you have contributed such and
:10:25. > :10:31.such in income tax, you might only be able to access the NHS and tell
:10:32. > :10:34.you contribute... What about all these different industries,
:10:35. > :10:40.agriculture, hotels, catering, about them? They would fit in the second
:10:41. > :10:44.category, as long as these people are coming in without being a net
:10:45. > :10:52.drain, I am liberal on immigration. In an ideal world I would have
:10:53. > :10:56.audits but we do not live in an ideal world. To get the debate back
:10:57. > :11:00.on track we have to address peoples concerns and concerns are whether
:11:01. > :11:04.there is a drain on public services. There is an easy way to solve that,
:11:05. > :11:10.if you are coming in with loads of money and paying huge of tax you can
:11:11. > :11:14.have services, but if you're coming in with less your qualifications for
:11:15. > :11:18.benefits will not start immediately. That's not an immigration policy you
:11:19. > :11:31.can have as a member of the EU but you can outside. Yeah. You looked
:11:32. > :11:37.exasperated. I am exasperated by the ideology which is playing out. What
:11:38. > :11:42.sort of ideology is it? Is it hard right? It feels hard right to me. I
:11:43. > :11:48.think it's a message the right-wing press has been pushing for ten
:11:49. > :11:51.years, the Daily Mail has been this Pavlovian experiment about
:11:52. > :11:58.migration, it is a net benefit to this country. When I hear things
:11:59. > :12:02.about the categorisation, ?50,000 you are in, ?25,000 you are in but
:12:03. > :12:07.you cannot see a GP, that does not seem very British to me, it is not
:12:08. > :12:11.the values I signed up to as a British person. I think we live in
:12:12. > :12:16.an open society and this is the split, we have seen a move away from
:12:17. > :12:20.the traditional spectrum to different attitudes of open to
:12:21. > :12:25.Europe, open to globalisation is. Cultural attitudes and sentimental
:12:26. > :12:30.attitudes. The communities who voted to leave in the greatest numbers are
:12:31. > :12:34.the most fragile in our nation. In the north-east were they voted to
:12:35. > :12:39.leave in great numbers their economy is most fragile. In the South East
:12:40. > :12:47.in London it will be fine. So the people who voted for at most will
:12:48. > :12:52.the most? They will suffer the most. Does Theresa May have a mandate for
:12:53. > :12:57.a hard Brexit, a real Brexit, whatever you want to call it? I
:12:58. > :13:02.think it boils down to two Basic questions, first of all is the vote
:13:03. > :13:11.of the majority, if it is a simple majority, enough to enforce such a
:13:12. > :13:18.thing as Brexit and put it on a whole country even though 45% of the
:13:19. > :13:24.voters did not go for it. 40% did not go for it, what Tom was saying,
:13:25. > :13:28.and majority system. My question would be if democracy should work
:13:29. > :13:36.that way, then it is a tyranny of the majority. The other thing is
:13:37. > :13:42.when it comes to if there is a mandate, if there is enough
:13:43. > :13:49.information and we have to deal with the post-truth error and
:13:50. > :13:54.misinformation which has been spread all over the country regarding the
:13:55. > :14:00.question. All that money for the health service we always hear about.
:14:01. > :14:06.Anyone else? Quick point. The gentleman talks about the points
:14:07. > :14:14.system which already exists for International so there is tier one,
:14:15. > :14:20.tear two, that can be adjusted and modified to the European system as
:14:21. > :14:25.well. For investors, workers, law skills, medium skills, higher
:14:26. > :14:36.skills. Does Theresa May have a mandate? I think so. Anyone else? I
:14:37. > :14:42.believe Theresa May does have a mandate for it because the majority
:14:43. > :14:48.of us who were voting for Leave voted on the basis of two things,
:14:49. > :14:54.one that would be controlled migration, the second was that we
:14:55. > :14:57.would trade with the whole world and trading with the whole world means
:14:58. > :15:03.just that, it does not mean trading with European Union exclusively. We
:15:04. > :15:10.can make a deal with the European Union, they need us as much as we
:15:11. > :15:15.need them. Why can't we have a deal with Australia, Canada, other
:15:16. > :15:20.countries we used to have a deal with? If I can add one thing, as you
:15:21. > :15:26.can hear from my accent I am European, I was born in the Czech
:15:27. > :15:34.Republic and I believe that the idea of great Europe is wonderful but
:15:35. > :15:38.it's not enforceable because people are doing things for their own
:15:39. > :15:43.benefit, for their own mandate and I feel a lot of people here who are
:15:44. > :15:47.saying we should have left European Union, those people don't have
:15:48. > :15:54.enough faith in their own British culture.
:15:55. > :16:03.Do we have faith in... Let me put this to you, do we have faith in the
:16:04. > :16:08.people who are leading the negotiations? We saw the Article 50,
:16:09. > :16:14.some people are saying they forgot to mention Gibraltar, they forgot to
:16:15. > :16:19.mention the other land border. Oh, dear! Oops! Some people are saying,
:16:20. > :16:26.well, we need the very best calibre of negotiating. How much faith do
:16:27. > :16:29.you have in David Davies and Liam Fox and Boris Johnson? This
:16:30. > :16:36.Government had to change its Budget after three days. Do you think we
:16:37. > :16:40.have the best people? I think we should remain sceptical, shall we
:16:41. > :16:44.say? The most important period country has faced the decades. We
:16:45. > :16:50.should hope that politicians make sure they have the right people in
:16:51. > :16:55.the room to be able to do this. What is really striking about the Brexit
:16:56. > :16:58.vote is you have this huge radical progressive blow for democracy,
:16:59. > :17:03.which is completely against what the leaders of the political class
:17:04. > :17:05.wanted. The two most powerful politicians in this country
:17:06. > :17:10.campaigned for Remain and are probably shocked they had to deal
:17:11. > :17:14.with this. We have duties this out in the long-term. We voted against
:17:15. > :17:19.technocracy and it is left for technocrats to deal with this.
:17:20. > :17:22.Article 50 was passing through both the House of Commons and the
:17:23. > :17:25.unelected House of Lords, and despite the fact that the vast
:17:26. > :17:28.majority of the people backed Remain, they rolled over in the face
:17:29. > :17:32.of the democratic mandate, the weight of that was really bearing on
:17:33. > :17:37.their backs, that is positive, we need to make sure the negotiations
:17:38. > :17:41.are completed properly and that they uphold what the 17.4 million people
:17:42. > :17:46.voted for. There is a very interesting
:17:47. > :17:50.development, this mantra, that is almost hypnotic mantra of take back
:17:51. > :17:54.control. We have never had less controlled. We saw all the party
:17:55. > :17:58.poppers going from the Leave campaign, Independence Day at all of
:17:59. > :18:04.that and then Donald Tusk said, sorry, it will not work like that
:18:05. > :18:14.and you are one against 27. When we were arguing with Spain about
:18:15. > :18:16.Gibraltar it was as versus Spain, in the future it will be us versus 27
:18:17. > :18:19.EU member states. Much, much weaker. Margaret Thatcher knew it was to be
:18:20. > :18:26.-- was better to be arguing take -- case at the table than outside the
:18:27. > :18:32.table. You can't waive your handbag at an empty chair. There is not even
:18:33. > :18:37.an empty chair, there is nothing. Double the distance, half the trade,
:18:38. > :18:40.that is the basic rule. We're talking about possibly WTO tariffs
:18:41. > :18:47.with our neighbours 20 miles across the Channel in return for which we
:18:48. > :18:52.have a spurious idea free trade... You want to see what is on the table
:18:53. > :18:56.and want another referendum? If I put an offer in on a house and it
:18:57. > :19:02.turns out to be sitting on a sinkhole, I want the opportunity to
:19:03. > :19:07.tear up the contract. The whole nation needs a psychotherapist.
:19:08. > :19:12.Never mind a group hug. We have got one! We have a psychotherapist. Do
:19:13. > :19:15.you think people were stupid? Were they bamboozled and misled? It is
:19:16. > :19:21.not what I think, the evidence is very clear they were misled. Mob
:19:22. > :19:30.rule is a well-known phenomenon, people follow the mob. When the
:19:31. > :19:37.Liverpool eight was destroyed, uprising, it does not that was
:19:38. > :19:41.right. It is hardly a mob uprising. This is not the equivalent of a mob,
:19:42. > :19:48.it was a ballot. This is what democracy is. They were asked in the
:19:49. > :19:51.ballot whether we should leave or remain in the European Union. The
:19:52. > :19:55.people who campaigned to leave were not the people who would deliver
:19:56. > :20:00.Brexit. They were completely independent group. I am interested
:20:01. > :20:04.in the idea that some people may be eligible to come to Britain earning
:20:05. > :20:10.less than ?50,000 on certain conditions. They won't have access
:20:11. > :20:14.to A, for instance. I tell you what, they can work in A, they can
:20:15. > :20:22.nurse Bacon Doctor... APPLAUSE
:20:23. > :20:26.-- they can nurse, and they can doctor. Tom, you are in your 20s,
:20:27. > :20:32.the disproportionate amount of people over the age of 65 who voted
:20:33. > :20:36.for Brexit are not the people who will be around, with every respect,
:20:37. > :20:42.to see the long-term consequences for the country. I dare say it is a
:20:43. > :20:45.very convenient argument to try to undermine the vote. It involves us
:20:46. > :20:58.all and everyone should vote on an equal basis, that is the great thing
:20:59. > :21:00.about democracy, take it or leave it. Over the last couple of months
:21:01. > :21:03.you have seen the anti-democratic comment, which I always believed was
:21:04. > :21:05.there but never really saw up close, you hear phrases like mob rule, the
:21:06. > :21:08.tyranny of the majority. It is incredible. Look at the derision
:21:09. > :21:13.poured upon anybody who questions it in some of the papers. They are
:21:14. > :21:17.called enemies of the people and all sorts. I want to talk about the
:21:18. > :21:21.Leave boaters in relation to this. Since the Brexit vote we have been
:21:22. > :21:26.caught racist, stupid, xenophobic, we did not know what we were voting
:21:27. > :21:29.for, various schemes were cooked up to try to stop this from happening
:21:30. > :21:35.and we got angry and were referred to as the mob. If anyone has been
:21:36. > :21:38.derided, and mind, told they are reckless or stupid, it is the people
:21:39. > :21:40.who voted Brexit in the first place. APPLAUSE
:21:41. > :21:43.Thank you very much. If you have something to say
:21:44. > :21:45.about that debate, log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,
:21:46. > :21:48.and follow the link to where you can We're also debating live this
:21:49. > :21:52.morning in Brighton: Has the time come to
:21:53. > :21:54.decriminalise sex work? And, do we underestimate
:21:55. > :21:57.the wisdom of the ancients? Get tweeting or emailing on those
:21:58. > :22:00.topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may have
:22:01. > :22:05.about the programme. There has been much discussion
:22:06. > :22:07.in recent years, including on The Big Questions,
:22:08. > :22:10.of the so-called Nordic model of dealing with the sex industry,
:22:11. > :22:14.where the clients may be charged with an offence but the sellers of
:22:15. > :22:19.sex are not acting against the law. Indeed, the SNP has adopted this
:22:20. > :22:23.system as one of its policies. But the Greens and the Lib-Dems have
:22:24. > :22:27.long argued for a different way. They want to decriminalise
:22:28. > :22:30.sex work altogether. And the Lib Dems want to quash any
:22:31. > :22:34.historical convictions for prostitution or kerb-crawling,
:22:35. > :22:37.for instance, and to categorise any future crimes against sex
:22:38. > :22:43.workers as hate crimes. This would mean it would no longer
:22:44. > :22:47.be an offence for a man or woman But it would be an offence
:22:48. > :22:51.to treat someone differently Has the time come to
:22:52. > :23:08.decriminalise sex work? Clear multidimensional is to this,
:23:09. > :23:17.let's start with the moral one, the premise that it is wrong to sell
:23:18. > :23:22.sex. We will come to Tanya is well -- as well, first, and Nikki Adams
:23:23. > :23:27.from The English Collective Of Prostitutes. Where are you? I have
:23:28. > :23:31.got you. What about this notion that the morale of the of the law in
:23:32. > :23:37.forms what happens, or the law makes a judgment about plurality? Is it
:23:38. > :23:41.wrong to sell sex? First ball, I absolutely do not think it is
:23:42. > :23:47.immoral to sell sex, but in terms of that role of the law, the law
:23:48. > :23:51.clearly has an influence on morale tea, on social attitudes, but that
:23:52. > :23:56.should not be the primary function of the criminal law. Those of us
:23:57. > :24:08.that advocate decriminalisation are interested in
:24:09. > :24:12.safety, people selling sex? How do we reduce the harm associated with
:24:13. > :24:15.that practice. Which we will come to, and I want to talk about the
:24:16. > :24:18.premise of whether it is immoral to do it? What would you like on it
:24:19. > :24:23.too? We should not single it out as more immoral than any other form of
:24:24. > :24:27.labour. Such as? Whatever job you do, nursing, which might involve
:24:28. > :24:30.quite intimate physical contact, lots of physical labour. All of the
:24:31. > :24:38.jobs we do involve using our bodies and minds. I don't think sexual
:24:39. > :24:42.labour is somehow more immoral than any other thing. I think there are
:24:43. > :24:46.lots of things that are immoral but are not criminal. Cheating on your
:24:47. > :24:49.spouse, for example, most of us would probably agree it is immoral
:24:50. > :24:56.but that does not mean criminal law is a way to address that. Nikki? The
:24:57. > :25:00.moral framework of it, first all? Some people would say government
:25:01. > :25:06.sell horrendous arms which kill thousands of people to awful
:25:07. > :25:11.regimes, that is legal. That is a good point in terms of comparing it
:25:12. > :25:15.to other activities, but it also depends on your value system and
:25:16. > :25:20.some of us would definitely say that the poverty that means that sex work
:25:21. > :25:25.is one of the best options compared to other forms of employment is the
:25:26. > :25:28.real in morale Oti, that should be urgently addressed.
:25:29. > :25:32.APPLAUSE We are living in a time when many of
:25:33. > :25:37.the Government policies are increasing the levels of sex work.
:25:38. > :25:41.Levels of prostitution, particularly for women, particularly for mothers.
:25:42. > :25:46.There is a lot of evidence from the North of England that benefits
:25:47. > :25:51.anxious, for example, have led to a 166% increase in prostitution in
:25:52. > :25:56.Sheffield. If people want to get hot under the collar about injustice and
:25:57. > :25:59.in morale Oti, let's tackle that. If you are serious about trying to
:26:00. > :26:07.reduce prostitution, that would be a good way to start. Dr Heather
:26:08. > :26:12.Brunskell-Evans, just on this point that we sell arms to dangerous
:26:13. > :26:15.regimes, the government prop bets from the sale of dangerous drugs
:26:16. > :26:20.like alcohol and tobacco, what is it about the morale at its sex being
:26:21. > :26:24.transactional that you believe is wrong? Is it inevitably
:26:25. > :26:28.exploitative? I think it is inevitably exploitative but I do not
:26:29. > :26:36.think it is a moral of people to sell sex. I think the morality is in
:26:37. > :26:41.stigmatising people who sell sex, largely it is not an equal
:26:42. > :26:47.opportunity, it is who sell sex and men who buy. Since the
:26:48. > :26:54.industrialisation of prostitution from the Victorian period, women
:26:55. > :26:59.have been really stigmatised, it is women who are largely in the lower
:27:00. > :27:05.socioeconomic category who do sell sex, and they should not be
:27:06. > :27:09.stigmatised. I think it is a slur on our society that we still sick --
:27:10. > :27:15.stigmatise people. Decriminalising the act of selling sex, would that
:27:16. > :27:21.lessen the stigma or do you believe the way ahead is to criminalise
:27:22. > :27:26.those who buy sex? Which is the best system which would make people
:27:27. > :27:30.safer? This is a programme about morality, and I think the way in
:27:31. > :27:38.order to address the immorality of the exploitation of women through
:27:39. > :27:43.prostitution and the violence and the murder which is inevitably
:27:44. > :27:48.attached to it is to criminalise the buyers. The problem with this
:27:49. > :27:55.discussion is we tend to focus on the women, it is important now we
:27:56. > :27:58.are in the 21st-century, we should start placing the ways in which we
:27:59. > :28:03.stigmatise women into the context that it is men who are buying it. If
:28:04. > :28:09.men did not make the demand there would be no market for the selling.
:28:10. > :28:15.APPLAUSE This is a very progressive point of
:28:16. > :28:24.view that my position holds, because it is not about bringing more laws,
:28:25. > :28:28.we have enough laws. But the law has a normative function, it has a
:28:29. > :28:34.punitive function but it also has a normative function. The law to
:28:35. > :28:40.criminalise the buyers means that eventually we would change our value
:28:41. > :28:44.system around and make its problematic for men to buy sex from
:28:45. > :28:49.women who they don't know, they don't know whether they have been
:28:50. > :28:54.trafficked... That is a really interesting point, to criminalise
:28:55. > :28:59.the buyers, Niki, is there a danger that thereby you are making it
:29:00. > :29:05.disproportionately people who do not care about the risks of being
:29:06. > :29:10.criminalised? Maybe more violent people? It is a massively dangerous
:29:11. > :29:15.thing to do. At the moment the law forces sex workers to work in very
:29:16. > :29:19.risky situations, you are working on the street, running from the police,
:29:20. > :29:24.you can't work together with others from premises, which is at least ten
:29:25. > :29:27.times safer than on the street. If you criminalise clients, clients
:29:28. > :29:32.insist on being anonymous, you cannot screen them in the same way.
:29:33. > :29:44.In Sweden, where they brought in the Nordic model, sex workers complained
:29:45. > :29:48.that first of all it has not meant they are to criminalised, they still
:29:49. > :29:50.suffer under the law and are prosecuted if they set up working
:29:51. > :29:53.with another woman from premises. Also the stigma and two crewmen --
:29:54. > :29:56.and criminal eyes Asian has got much worse. Laura Lee is doing a legal
:29:57. > :29:59.case and has made that point, since the law has changed in Northern
:30:00. > :30:03.Ireland, clients will not call you from their mobile phone any more.
:30:04. > :30:07.They will call you from a hotel phone because they are determined to
:30:08. > :30:11.be anonymous. Watch it be the priority is to listen to what sex
:30:12. > :30:16.workers are saying, that improves their own safety. We work very hard
:30:17. > :30:21.to keep ourselves safe. We try to work with other people and often
:30:22. > :30:27.risk being prosecuted for working together and any of the criminal law
:30:28. > :30:31.is sabotaging those impacts. Do you want to stop the injury? --
:30:32. > :30:45.industry? I do. Can we explore that a bit
:30:46. > :30:49.more, you have enormously important experience in Ipswich where five
:30:50. > :30:53.prostitutes were killed, you have help women get out of prostitution
:30:54. > :30:58.and have done amazing things. Is this an industry which can ever be
:30:59. > :31:10.stopped? Is it not down to the basic sexual desires, there will always be
:31:11. > :31:23.a demand? That's quite a complex question isn't it. That's fine! In
:31:24. > :31:31.Ipswich we followed more or less the Nordic model. Criminalising the
:31:32. > :31:34.buyer. Yes, I agree that as it stands the law is not perfect and
:31:35. > :31:42.could be improved in terms of the safety of women. Who are operating
:31:43. > :31:46.at the moment. But in Ipswich we chose not to criminalise the women
:31:47. > :31:53.and we did not prosecute any women during the whole of the five years I
:31:54. > :31:59.was involved and the men were identified. We are talking about
:32:00. > :32:04.street work to start with. The men were identified and letters were
:32:05. > :32:12.sent to them. Shamed effectively? Privately shamed or maybe if the
:32:13. > :32:16.letter landed on the kitchen table where somebody, a wife someone did
:32:17. > :32:25.not know this was happening, maybe there were shamed. But not publicly.
:32:26. > :32:30.And, but at the same time of course, it was absolutely essential to have
:32:31. > :32:35.the services in place for women so we were not abandoning the women, we
:32:36. > :32:41.were there to help them out of prostitution. And when we worked
:32:42. > :32:45.with them we had police officers who knew them very well and who
:32:46. > :32:52.contacted them. When we worked with them they were very keen, most of
:32:53. > :33:02.them, the majority of them, I would say 98%, wanted exit from
:33:03. > :33:06.prostitution. I agree that poverty drives women into prostitution and
:33:07. > :33:13.the state has a responsibility to make sure women are not forced
:33:14. > :33:20.through poverty to act in that way. But we help these women off the
:33:21. > :33:28.streets. Fantastic work... I will come to you in a minute... What
:33:29. > :33:32.Helen said about out of prostitution, why wouldn't you, that
:33:33. > :33:39.focuses us on the question of is it inevitably exploitative? Some people
:33:40. > :33:46.are nodding, can I ask you what you would like to say? OK, so, I would
:33:47. > :33:49.like to use an exercise that a survivor took me through and this is
:33:50. > :33:57.for people in the audience to look around and look at the men around
:33:58. > :34:03.you, she said look at the men around you. Imagine yourself having to be
:34:04. > :34:07.always, half of the men, imagine women and men here in the audience,
:34:08. > :34:11.you need to be with half of the men here in the audience regardless of
:34:12. > :34:15.what you feel about them one day and the second half the next day and
:34:16. > :34:22.these men can do to you whatever they want, call whatever may may
:34:23. > :34:29.want... That is not true... Whatever they want because they paid money
:34:30. > :34:40.and that is what prostitution is. Is it always exploitative? Is it very
:34:41. > :34:44.often? Of course it is. The big percentage of women that came to
:34:45. > :34:54.prostitution after being sexually abused in childhood, the entrance to
:34:55. > :34:58.prostitution from age 14... No... This is not a student graduating,
:34:59. > :35:05.having a Ph.D. And thinking shall I go into my career or? These are
:35:06. > :35:15.women that have no other choice... Anyone else? Arguably you get two
:35:16. > :35:25.ends of the scale with sex work, you get the ones who are very pure and
:35:26. > :35:31.then you get the ones which can pay millions, like sports stars... Be
:35:32. > :35:35.careful of naming names! Football stars and things that have been
:35:36. > :35:44.accused of using prostitutes. Arguably those six workers are in
:35:45. > :35:51.the industry to make money and it is their choice. Do you believe it is a
:35:52. > :35:57.choice Mark Littlewood? That has to be how you start, it is a choice but
:35:58. > :36:02.we should not say it is always exploitative. We trust adults to
:36:03. > :36:06.engage in consensual activities of all sorts and we should assume this
:36:07. > :36:14.is consensual unless there is a specific evidence. Even if you find
:36:15. > :36:18.sex work or prostitution this tasteful, there is a clear rule, if
:36:19. > :36:27.you force things underground they get worse. I think you have to look
:36:28. > :36:32.at it in the context of other jobs, you have this range of experience,
:36:33. > :36:35.some people like their jobs, most people hate them, 60% of British
:36:36. > :36:40.workers dislike their jobs and would prefer to be doing something else
:36:41. > :36:46.and it is probably the same sex workers. It's not true, the figures
:36:47. > :36:49.about the high levels of abuse, the only way people are able to put that
:36:50. > :36:54.forward is they do not compare, they do not ask other people, they do not
:36:55. > :36:59.ask the nurses or factory workers how many were abused as children, it
:37:00. > :37:04.is only sex workers who are asked that question. The determining thing
:37:05. > :37:08.has to be safety. At the moment women in our group are being
:37:09. > :37:13.prosecuted when they come forward to report violence and that has to
:37:14. > :37:16.stop. Decriminalising has been shown to work where you can transform the
:37:17. > :37:23.relationship with the police so you can demand protection. Quick
:37:24. > :37:29.question from the audience. I trained as a nurse and I have
:37:30. > :37:32.experience working as a nurse, I have been shouted at and spat at and
:37:33. > :37:37.I have had various forms of excrement thrown at me, nobody tried
:37:38. > :37:41.to penetrate me because I was at work and certainly not five, six,
:37:42. > :37:49.seven different people I did not know. Who are you to say that one is
:37:50. > :37:52.better than the other? I would prefer to be doing sex work than
:37:53. > :37:59.other forms of work, I do not want to be an Arms trade and I would not
:38:00. > :38:02.want my daughter to be. We have a strange relationship with sex in the
:38:03. > :38:07.UK and the Western world and that is part of the root of this. A number
:38:08. > :38:10.of points have come up today one I want to make which has not been made
:38:11. > :38:16.is that over 10% of prostitutes in the UK are not women, 10% are men
:38:17. > :38:22.and transsexuals, this is not purely a women's issue although I accept
:38:23. > :38:26.the argument about poverty and infrastructure. I looked at American
:38:27. > :38:30.research asking prostitutes why they were doing it and the most common
:38:31. > :38:37.answer was they liked it. There is an assumption... That was a
:38:38. > :38:42.particular piece of research but we make an assumption, those of us who
:38:43. > :38:46.choose not to be prostitutes make value judgments about prostitutes
:38:47. > :38:51.which I do not think are merited. One other point, I work in mental
:38:52. > :38:57.health... Mental health we look at stigma and marginalisation, the
:38:58. > :39:02.answer we have come out with is talk about it, the answer to get away
:39:03. > :39:06.from stigma is to talk to others. If we stigmatise and marginalise sex
:39:07. > :39:11.work people will not talk about it and cannot get the help and support
:39:12. > :39:16.they need. The lady at the back, when he said the main reason is
:39:17. > :39:21.because I like it your hand shot up, is that why? Any woman, man or
:39:22. > :39:25.anything else who wants to sell their body and enjoys it should be
:39:26. > :39:31.allowed to, first of all. The question I have is why do we breed a
:39:32. > :39:35.culture, why do we have a society which breeds the need and
:39:36. > :39:43.desperation to turn to sex work, not just prostitution. Every society in
:39:44. > :39:49.the history of humanity. You would not believe the number of students
:39:50. > :39:54.who consider stripping, sugaring, prostitution, various forms of sex
:39:55. > :39:58.work. It is not just prostitution. The question I have is why do we
:39:59. > :40:04.breed a culture where people feel they are so desperate that they need
:40:05. > :40:09.to and have no other options. Do you want to come back on that Helen? I
:40:10. > :40:13.would like to come back on many of these points. Sadly they do not have
:40:14. > :40:19.time but that was a powerful point from the lady. The lady was saying
:40:20. > :40:25.that people should be allowed to sell their bodies in whichever
:40:26. > :40:30.format that is, pole dancing, prostitution, whatever. The Nordic
:40:31. > :40:35.model argues people should be allowed to sell their bodies in
:40:36. > :40:41.whichever form they want to. But not allowed to buy sex? Absolutely. I
:40:42. > :40:48.think, of course when men are involved in prostitution, as
:40:49. > :40:55.prostituted people, the majority of the people who buy sex are men.
:40:56. > :40:59.There are men who sell sex as well. The person at the back indicated
:41:00. > :41:03.that students are selling sex in one form or another. It is largely
:41:04. > :41:11.female students, not male students so we had to come back to this as a
:41:12. > :41:17.gender issue. A structural issue of gender relations. In the time
:41:18. > :41:22.available, do forgive me, but you mentioned the Nordic model, and we
:41:23. > :41:24.have the model of New Zealand some people have called it,
:41:25. > :41:30.decriminalising it, the legalisation, people talk about
:41:31. > :41:34.parts of Germany and the Netherlands, forgive me for coming
:41:35. > :41:38.for Tanya as we close because you mentioned the Nordic model and she
:41:39. > :41:42.was from her body language and face saying this is never going to work
:41:43. > :41:50.and it is wrong, what is wrong with it? Criminalising people who buy
:41:51. > :41:57.sex? For many of the reasons Nikki already mentioned, it's the risk of
:41:58. > :42:01.safety to sex workers, if clients are commoner lysed have fewer
:42:02. > :42:05.clients. The once you have other one is not worried about breaking the
:42:06. > :42:08.law, you will have a lower income, you might have to have to agree to
:42:09. > :42:18.services you might otherwise not agree to. The Swedish model is
:42:19. > :42:23.extremely successful. No, their own research does not bear that out.
:42:24. > :42:32.Talking about how successful the Swedish model is, it has major --
:42:33. > :42:41.made it safer. It's extremely dangerous... THEY TALK OVER EACH
:42:42. > :42:55.OTHER Often have PTSD... We are going to have have to bring it to a
:42:56. > :43:00.close. Apologies, I wanted to pick up on the notion of the Swedish
:43:01. > :43:03.system, thank you all very much indeed. We are going to discuss
:43:04. > :43:06.wisdom. High time I think. You can join in all this
:43:07. > :43:08.morning's debates by logging on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions
:43:09. > :43:10.and following the link Or you can tweet using
:43:11. > :43:15.the hashtag #bbctbq. about our last Big Question,
:43:16. > :43:19.too ? do we underestimate And if you'd like to apply to be
:43:20. > :43:24.in the audience at a future show you We're in Cambridge next week,
:43:25. > :43:28.then after a two week break for Easter and the London Marathon
:43:29. > :43:30.we're back from York on April 30th for two shows,
:43:31. > :43:32.the usual live edition in the morning and a pre-recorded
:43:33. > :43:35.special in the afternoon Then we're in Salford on May 14th
:43:36. > :43:43.also for two programmes. Spring is a very crowded season
:43:44. > :43:46.on the world's religious calendars. The Christian Easter was long
:43:47. > :43:51.preceded by the Pagan Ostara, when the Green Man god awakens
:43:52. > :43:53.from his winter sleep. Zoroastrians celebrate
:43:54. > :43:55.Jamsheedi Noruz, which dates back to the prophet Zarathushtra himself,
:43:56. > :44:02.3500 years ago in Ancient Persia. The Hindus fling paint
:44:03. > :44:05.at each other on Holi, to welcome the spring and celebrate
:44:06. > :44:08.Krishna, who was born Where mankind has lived,
:44:09. > :44:13.since ancient times there have also been complex,
:44:14. > :44:15.mystical and powerful And today their very longevity
:44:16. > :44:21.grants them additional power. Do we underestimate
:44:22. > :44:33.the wisdom of the ancients? Dr Chenta Kang, consultant
:44:34. > :44:41.psychiatrist, a Hindu priest, good morning. Let's knock something out
:44:42. > :44:45.of the park here, with ancient Scriptures, when people start
:44:46. > :44:49.arguing they prove science, it kind of discredits the religion because
:44:50. > :44:54.there are often some howlers as well, we should concentrate on the
:44:55. > :44:58.wisdom, human nature, how we live and think and behave towards each
:44:59. > :45:08.other and those little epithets. Tell us about the Bhagavad-Gita?
:45:09. > :45:16.Its message is simple and similar to message of others, the message of
:45:17. > :45:20.the agents is connect with that part of yourself that is separate from
:45:21. > :45:26.what society imposes on that. Then we can connect with each other.
:45:27. > :45:29.Inequality on that level is not about financial differences,
:45:30. > :45:36.position, power, name and fame, we connect more deeply because we find
:45:37. > :45:42.stillness. In a being, away from the madness and the mania of the world?
:45:43. > :45:46.Some of our biggest obstacles are our own mind. It gets in the way of
:45:47. > :45:57.proper behaviour and proper thinking. We don't take time and
:45:58. > :46:01.space to filter and sift to that. It does not matter if we are a
:46:02. > :46:07.politician or taking care of our family, we will be tripped up. All
:46:08. > :46:16.this was written by men for men? It was not. Chapter one, verse 40 of
:46:17. > :46:19.Bhagavad-Gita, oh, Krishna, descendant of racially, when
:46:20. > :46:24.unrighteousness prevails then the women of the family become degraded.
:46:25. > :46:32.When they become degraded then undesirable offspring is a result.
:46:33. > :46:37.That is quite simple... It is not wisdom, it is misogyny. It is saying
:46:38. > :46:41.that if you do not look after women... Women have a lot of power
:46:42. > :46:45.in society, they are the first teacher of the child, if you do not
:46:46. > :46:53.take care of them they become than rubble, than rubble women are taken
:46:54. > :47:02.advantage of, -- there becomes a Nowell, vulnerable women are taken
:47:03. > :47:06.advantage of. Some were men are -- women are manipulated. Undesirable
:47:07. > :47:11.offspring? If you get pregnant if you do not want to. Don't people
:47:12. > :47:14.have abortions because of undesirable offspring? That is not
:47:15. > :47:18.the wisdom the ancients are trying to give us, but they say that if you
:47:19. > :47:21.find the quiet and the stillness with a new, separate from the
:47:22. > :47:28.busyness around you, connect with each other, all the polls of
:47:29. > :47:33.society, the need to connect, we do not depend on the external to do
:47:34. > :47:38.that. With many texts it is a case that there is a certain cherry
:47:39. > :47:43.picking going on, I like that, I don't like that, I'll interpret that
:47:44. > :47:49.one in a certain way. Emma, were these texts written by men for men,
:47:50. > :47:58.should we be wary of that? I am not a historical expert but I believe
:47:59. > :48:02.they were primarily written by the Brahmin class, which was educated
:48:03. > :48:04.and had some respect given to them for their religious understanding,
:48:05. > :48:08.and I think usually the women at that time would not have been
:48:09. > :48:13.educated so lots of the texts probably would not have been
:48:14. > :48:17.available for them to study to the same degree? What about the wisdom
:48:18. > :48:23.of the ancients? There is certainly wisdom that that wisdom can arise in
:48:24. > :48:28.many places and any circumstances. Yes, ancient texts might inspire
:48:29. > :48:35.some people, but not others. Others might be inspired by seeing human
:48:36. > :48:39.suffering or connecting with nature or seeing a painting, spending time
:48:40. > :48:43.in meditation or reflection. I think wisdom can come in many different
:48:44. > :48:48.forms. I think the important thing is that somebody decides to seek
:48:49. > :48:52.wisdom with a human life and ask these important questions which
:48:53. > :48:58.define our capability as humans. That is the most important thing.
:48:59. > :49:01.And then there are many ways to find the wisdom. Professor of ancient
:49:02. > :49:07.history at the University Manchester, isn't it the case that
:49:08. > :49:11.if you had, I don't know, Bob Dylan lyric and you said you found it in
:49:12. > :49:15.an ancient book, you don't need to be a weatherman to know which way
:49:16. > :49:21.the wind blows, you saw it in an ancient book and you would go, oh,
:49:22. > :49:26.that is brilliant, that is the wisdom of the ancients! Ayew as King
:49:27. > :49:31.whether... We imbue it with too much significance it comes from hundreds
:49:32. > :49:36.of thousands of years ago, but you could see it on a Hallmark greetings
:49:37. > :49:40.cards. You had to give the ancients respect. People who lived and
:49:41. > :49:50.conditions far more brutal than those we live under, who did that in
:49:51. > :49:54.a surge -- in a surge that the other speakers are talking about, finding
:49:55. > :49:59.ideas that are worth living for and then managed to express them in a
:50:00. > :50:04.way... Maybe 2000 years from now we will still be singing Bob Dylan. I
:50:05. > :50:11.am not saying we won't. But in a sense it is like creating a time
:50:12. > :50:19.capsule, the message in a bottle... Message In A Bottle, that is another
:50:20. > :50:22.one! You send your ideas into the world. If people are still
:50:23. > :50:33.protecting and cherry chewing it and playing with it and arguing with it
:50:34. > :50:38.2000 years later... It means something. It is not so much that
:50:39. > :50:42.other people could not have had a similar idea, but we have to have a
:50:43. > :50:46.little bit of respect for the people... That is the interesting
:50:47. > :50:51.thing, to see humanity thousands of years ago trying to make sense of it
:50:52. > :50:56.all. Emma, isn't that the inspiring thing? Absolutely, but I think we
:50:57. > :51:02.need to bear in mind that when these texts were written, most of the
:51:03. > :51:10.population was involved in subsistence agriculture, they did
:51:11. > :51:16.not have the time, opportunity or Google to study, to reflect, to
:51:17. > :51:20.meditate. Despite the busyness of our lives now, many people now have
:51:21. > :51:24.far more choice over how they spend their day. I appreciate not
:51:25. > :51:30.everybody does, but I spend a lot of time in the Himalayas, in developing
:51:31. > :51:34.countries, in rural, agricultural villages where nobody has any time
:51:35. > :51:40.to reflect on meditate because they are planting potatoes and hoping it
:51:41. > :51:45.will rain or not rain. I think that now, particularly in our culture,
:51:46. > :51:49.many people have the opportunity to gather this past wisdom and look at
:51:50. > :51:51.their current lives and become extraordinary spiritual
:51:52. > :51:55.practitioners for the benefit of all.
:51:56. > :52:01.APPLAUSE The time comes when we have to stop
:52:02. > :52:05.planting the potatoes is what you are saying?
:52:06. > :52:09.We have that chance. I would disagree... We are having no
:52:10. > :52:15.disagreement on this programme, I am not having it! At the idea that
:52:16. > :52:25.modern people are somehow more able... I did not say that. In the
:52:26. > :52:31.ancient world, women and children in ancient should editions often lived
:52:32. > :52:36.in cultures that were, in a sense, very dominating of women and
:52:37. > :52:42.children. -- women and children in ancient cultures and traditions.
:52:43. > :52:46.Don't we have a glass ceiling now?! Women and children have always made
:52:47. > :52:49.their contribution and there have always been women's traditions
:52:50. > :52:54.handed down through the generations that have incredible value. When
:52:55. > :52:59.Emma made the point about she is not a historian but you agree that the
:53:00. > :53:02.books were written by men, for men, women were not educated, at the time
:53:03. > :53:07.the Bhagavad-Gita was spoken and written down, the other person that
:53:08. > :53:12.Christian was speaking to, that wife, she was a treasure at the King
:53:13. > :53:22.Dylan very educated. -- the other person that Krishna was speaking to.
:53:23. > :53:33.She was, but would her hundred thousand staff have been educated?
:53:34. > :53:37.That Downton Abbey! The point I am trying to make is that I do not
:53:38. > :53:42.think we over credit ancient wisdom, I think we go the opposite way and
:53:43. > :53:48.throw out the baby with the bath water. What happens is that religion
:53:49. > :53:50.and ancient wisdom get separated, spirituality is separated from
:53:51. > :53:56.religion. Religion is a vehicle to because jewel, to connect with the
:53:57. > :54:00.inner comedy part of ourselves. Because we always shining a
:54:01. > :54:03.spotlight on the negativity and the human mistakes with wisdom, people
:54:04. > :54:09.through the wisdom out and we need to stop living in such a polarised
:54:10. > :54:14.society where there is a factual, scientific way and then the
:54:15. > :54:23.wishy-washy faith and religious way. They go hand in hand. In 5000, 6000,
:54:24. > :54:27.7000 years' time, they will look back at things, what will they say,
:54:28. > :54:34.Article 50, perhaps, they will look at that. What is the wisest thing
:54:35. > :54:41.you have ever come across? Just an example from the marvellous books
:54:42. > :54:47.and the inspiring books from your faith? Point are listeners... I am
:54:48. > :54:54.on the rage again, our listeners... Viewers to something? Never was
:54:55. > :54:58.there a time that I never existed, never will there be a time that I
:54:59. > :55:04.ceased to exist. If I have any fears about loss and gain, I should feel
:55:05. > :55:13.should. My loss and gain might be external, but my inner experience
:55:14. > :55:16.does not have too loose and gain. It is interesting... Never has there
:55:17. > :55:21.been a time that I did not exist, never will there be a time that I
:55:22. > :55:25.ceased to exist. I disagree, there was a time when I did not exist and
:55:26. > :55:30.I will cease to exist in a couple of decades. I was at a place in
:55:31. > :55:34.Hampshire just over 1000 years old, I reflected on the millennium of
:55:35. > :55:38.people who had crossed that threshold, their wishes and dreams,
:55:39. > :55:43.what their lives were like, it was a really interesting meditation but
:55:44. > :55:46.there was nothing that they had to tell me about living today, there
:55:47. > :55:50.was no particular wisdom that they offered me. The thing that worries
:55:51. > :55:55.me about the wisdom of the ancients, because I think we have to learn
:55:56. > :55:58.from history and the ancients, but there was an awful lot of stupid
:55:59. > :56:04.ancient people as well. LAUGHTER
:56:05. > :56:09.We tend to pick the bits that we like and discard the others, we
:56:10. > :56:14.don't hear about Socrates' next-door neighbour, we hear about Socrates.
:56:15. > :56:17.Mozart and Salieri. In the debate today we have heard many things that
:56:18. > :56:25.sound like papering over the cracks to me. That was a phrase introduced
:56:26. > :56:28.to us because landlords rented out apartments, they literally papered
:56:29. > :56:36.over the cracks. It is about the human condition. I think one of the
:56:37. > :56:40.things about wisdom that is underrated as collective wisdom.
:56:41. > :56:44.Often how it is viewed, whether ancient or present day, it is viewed
:56:45. > :56:49.in a very individualistic way. I am based at a women's centre, it is
:56:50. > :56:55.very collective, our organisation, and I am struck every day of my life
:56:56. > :57:00.how much more valuable and clarifying it is to be in that kind
:57:01. > :57:05.of collective environment, and I think the hierarchy has been
:57:06. > :57:11.throughout society really undermines us getting clarity on our lives and
:57:12. > :57:15.any kind of wisdom. There is an awful lot of ancient
:57:16. > :57:22.wisdom but an awful lot of ancient golf. We want today to be extremely
:57:23. > :57:27.sceptical and nervous about fake news -- there is also a lot of
:57:28. > :57:30.ancient guff. It is not just fake news, we had to be nervous about
:57:31. > :57:38.fake wisdom, there is an awful lot of it about. That is why it is up to
:57:39. > :57:42.you to find out. Fake wisdom? If you change the word religion for
:57:43. > :57:45.philosophy then I think a lot more of this becomes philosophy. People
:57:46. > :57:50.get uptight about religion. Ira member George Bush being asked to
:57:51. > :57:54.was his favourite philosopher, he was ridiculed for saying Jesus
:57:55. > :57:57.Christ. But take Christianity out of what Jesus Christ is said to have
:57:58. > :58:02.said and there is brilliant stuff the social order, being nice to each
:58:03. > :58:09.other, living as you would hope to. Call it philosophy and not religion,
:58:10. > :58:12.everybody is cool. Ehmer? If you put any of these books on the shelf
:58:13. > :58:21.under does not range you, it means nothing. And on that bombshell... It
:58:22. > :58:25.is about your heart and mind changing. Like a bird on a wire,
:58:26. > :58:27.like a drunken midnight choir, is good, Leonard Cohen.
:58:28. > :58:30.As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.
:58:31. > :58:36.Next week we're in Cambridge, so do join us then.
:58:37. > :58:41.Thank you for your contributions, I direct you to the hashtag #bbctbq,
:58:42. > :58:43.it is always good reading. But for now, it's goodbye from
:58:44. > :58:48.Brighton and have a great Sunday.