:00:00. > :00:00.Today on The Big Questions - rationing on the NHS,
:00:07. > :00:25.welfare reform, and doing good rather than doing God.
:00:26. > :00:27.Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
:00:28. > :00:30.Today we're live from Manor Church of England Academy in York.
:00:31. > :00:37.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
:00:38. > :00:40.This week, a leaked letter from the medical director
:00:41. > :00:42.of the National Health Service in Yorkshire and the Humber
:00:43. > :00:44.to Rotherham's Clinical Commissioning Group
:00:45. > :00:49.It praised the GP-led commissioning group for what is dubbed
:00:50. > :00:52.lifestyle rationing - in this case making dangerously
:00:53. > :00:55.overweight patients and smokers to wait longer for hip
:00:56. > :01:00.And it said that the NHS expected more commissioning
:01:01. > :01:06.Around 20% of patients needing a hip or knee operation have been denied
:01:07. > :01:10.surgery or had to wait much longer than other patients.
:01:11. > :01:13.And very obese people in Yorkshire waiting for ?10,000 gastric band
:01:14. > :01:18.operations or ?15,000 gastric bypasses have been put on hold, too.
:01:19. > :01:30.Should the NHS ration according to lifestyle?
:01:31. > :01:40.Doctor Raj, good morning. We have got a big problem on our hands here.
:01:41. > :01:46.Absolutely. We are going to end up as a sick society. The NHS will
:01:47. > :01:50.buckle on its knees very soon. Is there any excuse ever for putting
:01:51. > :01:56.somebody to the back of the cute? If you give them advice on their
:01:57. > :02:01.lifestyle and they do not heed it? Based on medical decision coming as.
:02:02. > :02:06.I am a bariatric physician, one of very few in the country. Someone
:02:07. > :02:11.comes to me and says they consume 40 units of alcohol week and they want
:02:12. > :02:17.a gastric band surgery, we refuse them. The reason is as a doctor I
:02:18. > :02:20.have to make sure he is safe and outcomes are good. Research shows if
:02:21. > :02:25.someone consumes lots of alcohol then outcomes will be bad. They will
:02:26. > :02:29.become alcohol addicts after the surgery so why would you subject a
:02:30. > :02:37.patient to surgery when he will not do well. Can you see the point? I
:02:38. > :02:40.can. If you say to a patient who was obese, you have got to lose a lot of
:02:41. > :02:45.weight beforehand otherwise the operation will not work? Less, or
:02:46. > :02:48.they will put the weight back on. It could be detrimental to them. They
:02:49. > :02:55.could be alcoholics worse than they are so what is the point of pushing
:02:56. > :03:00.someone closer to their deathbed by subjecting them to this complex
:03:01. > :03:03.operation. Stephen, this was your situation as well, you were put to
:03:04. > :03:16.the back of the queue. Tell us your story. What happened was I went on
:03:17. > :03:24.to a boot camp in Sussex and I lost 11 stone in weight. In six months on
:03:25. > :03:28.the boot camp. After that, I was promised surgery but at that
:03:29. > :03:33.particular time I believed in exercise and diet. I always believed
:03:34. > :03:37.in exercise and diet. The trouble is the NHS has too much weight on them
:03:38. > :03:44.at the moment because there are lot of people who are obese going to the
:03:45. > :03:50.NHS. It didn't work for you? You worked. I worked, I pay my national
:03:51. > :03:57.insurance and I was a taxpayer. I went away and in six months I lost
:03:58. > :04:00.11 stone. I got off my backside and got out there and did something. The
:04:01. > :04:05.trouble now is I am asking someone to help me and I have been in the
:04:06. > :04:10.media about it and they keep putting me to the back of the queue. I want
:04:11. > :04:15.to get a job and do something, but the trouble is, every time I try and
:04:16. > :04:18.do something, I cannot do it because people keep putting me in the queue
:04:19. > :04:24.all the time. The trouble is, there is too much pressure going on the
:04:25. > :04:31.NHS. The trouble is, when people read piece, -- when people are
:04:32. > :04:37.obese, some people should get exercise and diet, and yes, some
:04:38. > :04:43.people should get surgery. Do you get a lot of abuse from people? I
:04:44. > :04:52.do. I travelled all the way from Plymouth yesterday. I had a lot of
:04:53. > :04:56.beds to -- I had a lot of abuse from people. At the end of the day I know
:04:57. > :05:00.I am doing something for myself. I know that I am a taxpayer, I could
:05:01. > :05:08.do something and I am going to do it. I am not going to give up. That
:05:09. > :05:12.is the point, isn't it? Let me come to, Alan Maynard. People have paid
:05:13. > :05:16.their tax and then national insurance. People should be entitled
:05:17. > :05:22.but there is rationing going on. The NHS will never have enough money,
:05:23. > :05:25.will it? If people have paid their taxes and national insurance and
:05:26. > :05:28.goodness knows what, in principle people should be treated when they
:05:29. > :05:33.benefit from it and some people cannot benefit much from it. The
:05:34. > :05:39.basic problem is the underfunding of the NHS. We have had parsimonious
:05:40. > :05:43.funding since 2010 and the system is groaning and creaking and in a great
:05:44. > :05:47.deal of difficulty. There will be a lot of cruelty in it. People will be
:05:48. > :05:52.delayed for hips and other things. They will have to wait much longer.
:05:53. > :05:56.That is what the government wants. It is government policy which is
:05:57. > :06:03.leading to this rationing. Is there ever going to be enough money, ever?
:06:04. > :06:07.Because of the ageing population and the increasing demand? The problem
:06:08. > :06:12.with the NHS is there are finite resources and infinite demand and of
:06:13. > :06:14.course, some of the demand comes from more complex expensive
:06:15. > :06:17.operations which require more resources to be used. Part of the
:06:18. > :06:23.reasons why some of these operations have been cut back is because the
:06:24. > :06:26.money has been directed to other front-line A services and cancer
:06:27. > :06:30.treatment. The real base issue is we will never have enough money to fund
:06:31. > :06:35.everything for everyone. Where do we draw the line when it comes to
:06:36. > :06:40.rationing? The problem where it comes to rationing, way to draw the
:06:41. > :06:46.line? There are arguments that there are real medical dangers in some
:06:47. > :06:49.places for to undergo operations. If lifestyle changes are requested,
:06:50. > :06:54.people should go down that route. At what point do we say you had two
:06:55. > :06:57.glasses of red wine, you cannot have an operation. I think there is a
:06:58. > :07:01.danger in some point that we go too far and we say health fascism takes
:07:02. > :07:05.over and we say we will not fund half the operations in this country.
:07:06. > :07:09.On clearly defined objects, most people do believe that if your
:07:10. > :07:15.lifestyle does lead you into a bad place, you ought to take some
:07:16. > :07:18.responsibility for that. What Stephen was saying is sad and I
:07:19. > :07:22.think it is ridiculous he has been refused surgery. The first thing is,
:07:23. > :07:25.there is no standardisation in this country. The way he has been dealt
:07:26. > :07:30.with is completely different than what I would deal with in Yorkshire.
:07:31. > :07:36.I get references from all over the country. If someone has lost 11
:07:37. > :07:41.stone in weight, that shows you are committed, you are engaged, so you
:07:42. > :07:45.should be supported. So I cannot see any reason why you should not be
:07:46. > :07:52.supported because you will cost the NHS more. I am not asking the NHS to
:07:53. > :07:57.pay for my surgery, I am asking to pay some of it because I cannot
:07:58. > :08:03.afford all of it. Absolutely. I really think it is madness. Where
:08:04. > :08:06.else can this rationing fall? Some people are talking about the ageing
:08:07. > :08:10.population, we should reduce treatment on old people. It is an
:08:11. > :08:14.appalling thing. Some people say that. If you could argue that
:08:15. > :08:24.someone like myself in my early 70s has had a fair innings and you begin
:08:25. > :08:27.to divert resources away from people such as myself. There are whole lot
:08:28. > :08:30.of ways in which you can ration. The other thing to be borne in mind, if
:08:31. > :08:34.you ration as we are for hips and bariatric surgery, we will have idle
:08:35. > :08:38.surgeons and idle nurses because they will not be able to use their
:08:39. > :08:43.facilities. They will have to go home and do their knitting. It is a
:08:44. > :08:47.most extraordinary situation that May has been created and it can only
:08:48. > :08:53.be ameliorated by pouring more funds in. You are looking at me? Because
:08:54. > :09:00.you made a funny face. You were grimacing. I think what Stephen has
:09:01. > :09:03.done is very brave and come here and explain his own situation about the
:09:04. > :09:06.methodology you are using and seems to be ridiculous that you are not
:09:07. > :09:09.getting your operation given that you are undergoing the things you
:09:10. > :09:14.are doing. But on the resource in point, I know what press have said,
:09:15. > :09:18.but realistically, how much more money can we pouring? Is it 10
:09:19. > :09:28.billion or 100 billion, seriously, how much more money is it? Kate? It
:09:29. > :09:35.is a choice. Is it a bottomless pit? Does. No, it is not. If we want to
:09:36. > :09:39.prioritise health, social care, public health and education, then we
:09:40. > :09:44.will have a healthier, fitter society that it needs less acute
:09:45. > :09:50.care and will save money in the long run. So investing in those things...
:09:51. > :09:54.Need will not always outstrip resources given the ageing
:09:55. > :09:59.population and the improved health treatments which means we are living
:10:00. > :10:02.longer? We will need to spend more money with an ageing population. We
:10:03. > :10:07.need to spend it on social care as well as health, so that we prevent
:10:08. > :10:11.many of the problems that end up in our hospitals, with delayed
:10:12. > :10:14.discharges and costing us more than they need to. I think the best way
:10:15. > :10:18.to deal with this is through demand. You have a whole range of incentives
:10:19. > :10:32.through the tax system have to try and reduce
:10:33. > :10:36.demand for things which are doing people harm. You already have
:10:37. > :10:39.significant taxes on cigarettes. We are debating the sugar tax right
:10:40. > :10:41.now. If you saw it happen and it was effective, of course you would want
:10:42. > :10:44.to roll it out. Should those funds be ring-fenced for the NHS? The
:10:45. > :10:46.taxon fizzy drinks, for example. Working the tax on cigarettes to
:10:47. > :10:51.make them more expensive, these are taxes on the poor, aren't they? They
:10:52. > :10:54.do not need to be ring-fenced. You are improving people boss of health
:10:55. > :10:59.later on, you are doing them a favour. Whether people necessarily
:11:00. > :11:04.realise that! I think it is morally wrong to discriminate against people
:11:05. > :11:08.on the basis of their lifestyle. We are talking about taxes. Smokers
:11:09. > :11:10.contribute ?12 billion a year in tobacco taxation. That far outweighs
:11:11. > :11:23.the alleged cost of treating smoking-related
:11:24. > :11:26.diseases. And disproportionately people who smoke pay earlier say we
:11:27. > :11:28.do not have to pay your pension is! That are statistically and actual
:11:29. > :11:31.fact. The point is it is cruel not to give people operations. Many of
:11:32. > :11:35.these operations have nothing to do with smoking. They are hip
:11:36. > :11:39.replacements or knee replacements. People in massive physical pain.
:11:40. > :11:44.Sometimes they cannot even move. To be told you cannot have an operation
:11:45. > :11:47.unless you give up smoking is absolutely ridiculous. You deter
:11:48. > :11:53.people waiting longer for operations overall. And the thing is while they
:11:54. > :11:57.are waiting based on need medication and physiotherapy so they are still
:11:58. > :12:01.costing the state a lot of money. There is an argument that if you
:12:02. > :12:06.want that toxins into your body as a smoker, why should we pay for that?
:12:07. > :12:10.To make the point that you are a net gain. No smoke or should feel any
:12:11. > :12:14.guilt whatsoever for smoking because they make a massive contribution to
:12:15. > :12:23.the welfare state in this country, and the NHS would actually struggle
:12:24. > :12:26.without the tobacco taxes that smokers contribute. Do you say
:12:27. > :12:31.smokers thank you? It cost the NHS because there is chemotherapy,
:12:32. > :12:36.before they die, because there is cancer, chronic obstructive lung
:12:37. > :12:44.disease, asthma, that cost the NHS a huge amount of money. It will kill
:12:45. > :12:49.100,000 people a year. It is a real bargain! They are called cancer
:12:50. > :12:53.sticks. I'm sorry, tobacco is a legal product. Smokers should not
:12:54. > :12:56.feel guilty. It is a freedom of choice. I know a lot of people in
:12:57. > :13:02.this country do not believe in freedom of choice but a great many
:13:03. > :13:04.people do and that is why we are fighting on behalf of people who
:13:05. > :13:08.smoke. I do not smoke. I am overweight. I know I need to lose
:13:09. > :13:14.weight. It is not for the government to force me to use weight because of
:13:15. > :13:19.sugar taxes. If there is not some sort of judgment made on lifestyle,
:13:20. > :13:26.the argument is we all have to wait longer? I do not accept that. I
:13:27. > :13:31.think the CCG blanket ban is totally wrong, it is unethical. What I have
:13:32. > :13:38.missed so far in this debate is the cost benefit. I am talking diabetes.
:13:39. > :13:43.It died diabetic -- is a diabetic type two person has bariatric
:13:44. > :13:47.surgery, within days the diabetes disappears and we are spending ten
:13:48. > :13:52.billion pounds a year on diabetic treatment, that is the cost surgery.
:13:53. > :13:56.The surgery may cost ten ?50,000 up front, the nation as a whole will
:13:57. > :14:03.benefit within two or three years in the savings that it has as a result
:14:04. > :14:07.of no medications for diabetes. That is hugely important. You also have
:14:08. > :14:12.to remember that one in five hospital beds are blocked by people
:14:13. > :14:17.in hospital for diabetes who should not be there and this would be one
:14:18. > :14:23.of the ways in which you could free up beds as well. By pouring more
:14:24. > :14:30.money in, you would free up money. I just believe we cannot keep paying
:14:31. > :14:37.?10,000 ?50,000 for gastric surgery. It has got to come to stop sometime
:14:38. > :14:41.and I think in a minute, the NHS will go bankrupt. And I can tell you
:14:42. > :14:47.that because we are putting too much pressure on the NHS. One thing you
:14:48. > :14:52.have got to remember is progress. Raj will be able to say in the old
:14:53. > :14:58.days, even ten years ago, bariatric surgery used to cost a lot of money.
:14:59. > :15:02.But now new ways of balloon surgery, it will cost far, far less, but
:15:03. > :15:07.still the returns will be there and therefore in the end, the country
:15:08. > :15:12.will benefit by not having 3 million diabetic type to people.
:15:13. > :15:21.The lady with a blonde hair, rationing? The food and drinks
:15:22. > :15:22.industry needs addressing, there is some responsibility therefore super
:15:23. > :15:28.sizing things. APPLAUSE
:15:29. > :15:31.Those massive bottles, those massive deals.
:15:32. > :15:35.Google giant cappuccinos that you could swim in. But people have a
:15:36. > :15:44.choice not to drink these things. We can make up our own minds.
:15:45. > :15:48.APPLAUSE I fancy a giant cappuccino!
:15:49. > :15:52.Lots of people that are suffering from these physical problems and
:15:53. > :15:56.look like they are self-destructing also have mental health problems. It
:15:57. > :16:01.is easy from the outside to say that they should stop but we do not know
:16:02. > :16:04.how easy that is. Mental health services are possibly more in
:16:05. > :16:11.trouble and physical health services, the problem will continue.
:16:12. > :16:16.Poverty is a driver? If we start thinking that lifestyle is simply a
:16:17. > :16:20.matter of individual choice, we can get into trouble. There are
:16:21. > :16:24.questions about access to support, access to healthy food, it is not
:16:25. > :16:29.just managing demand on the unhealthy food but it is about the
:16:30. > :16:33.availability of healthy lifestyle support at early stages. It is
:16:34. > :16:40.partly about investment but also how we distribute that, who has got the
:16:41. > :16:44.choice to lead a healthy lifestyle? It ends at being discrimination
:16:45. > :16:48.related to property as well as discrimination related to choices
:16:49. > :16:52.that people have made. More hands are going up in the audience.
:16:53. > :16:59.Lifestyle choice is not necessarily a choice, because with benefits
:17:00. > :17:03.people are being pushed, and low wages, pushed into food banks where
:17:04. > :17:07.you are most likely going to get processed food, which is not good
:17:08. > :17:12.for you, you will not get healthy food from a food bank so you are
:17:13. > :17:16.creating another up swell of health problems. We will segue into that
:17:17. > :17:21.debate shortly. I think one thing to potentially
:17:22. > :17:25.tackle a second time offenders. After someone has had surgery for
:17:26. > :17:29.the first time, potentially create some sort of contract which if they
:17:30. > :17:34.preach that, for instance if they smoke and they suffer recurring
:17:35. > :17:40.health problems, say that you had to pay for it now because you have
:17:41. > :17:44.broken the contract and you had to suffer the consequences. What if you
:17:45. > :17:52.have a skiing accident? No more skiing holidays? It is the same
:17:53. > :17:57.thing. As a skier myself, if I suffered a serious accident, for
:17:58. > :18:01.instance if I broke my leg, if I was skiing again I would know the risks
:18:02. > :18:05.and I would take those precautions to make sure it would not happen. I
:18:06. > :18:12.would not skiing off piste, I would not ski slopes that are too hard for
:18:13. > :18:15.me. He is looking very off piste about this and cremation Marco you
:18:16. > :18:18.would still want to ski and you might have an accident, are you
:18:19. > :18:26.suggesting you should not be treated by the NHS because you break your
:18:27. > :18:29.leg on a second occasion?! Is people choose to lead a destructive
:18:30. > :18:35.lifestyle than they should suffer the consequences, I agree. What is a
:18:36. > :18:39.destructive lifestyle? Drinking too much, smoking too much,
:18:40. > :18:45.fornicating... Not fornicating! But the whole point I would like to make
:18:46. > :18:50.is the NHS is short of money and we are spending ?12 billion a year on
:18:51. > :18:59.foreign aid. Let's give that to the NHS for us. Now you are off piste!
:19:00. > :19:02.What do you think, Dan Hitchens? Clearly there are issues around
:19:03. > :19:08.funding which might have to involve rationing. Might have to? I was
:19:09. > :19:12.struck by a BMA spokesman that said that targeting smoking and obesity
:19:13. > :19:16.can look like targeting the poorest, and often in ways that look like
:19:17. > :19:21.bureaucratic bullying. We need to be careful about how we do this. Lots
:19:22. > :19:26.of health issues are stress-related, if somebody takes is stressful job,
:19:27. > :19:31.should we refuse to treat them on that basis? Both stressful being on
:19:32. > :19:34.a waiting list for a long time. The problem with the rationing is that
:19:35. > :19:37.the clinical commissioning groups have no choice because of the
:19:38. > :19:41.funding issues, they are doing things they do not particularly want
:19:42. > :19:45.to do which are in breach of good practice, but they have to debate of
:19:46. > :19:50.the funding. Unless you deal with the fundamental funding issue of the
:19:51. > :19:54.choices you have to make between different sectors, we will get
:19:55. > :20:01.nowhere. But rationing is likely to get worse, particularly with waiting
:20:02. > :20:04.times, which will expand. If you slow down the activity by rationing,
:20:05. > :20:10.you have unemployed doctors and nurses, which seems to be
:20:11. > :20:16.extraordinary when you have people in pain and in distress. Thank you
:20:17. > :20:20.very much. The next debate is on the way. Robert Beeson issues that came
:20:21. > :20:25.up that will come up again. Stephen, thank you for taking the trouble to
:20:26. > :20:32.come on The Big Questions this broke... Morning. -- to come on The
:20:33. > :20:33.Big Questions this morning. If you have something
:20:34. > :20:35.to say about that debate, log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,
:20:36. > :20:37.where you'll find links to join We're also debating live
:20:38. > :20:41.this morning from York, And are actions more
:20:42. > :20:44.important than beliefs? So, get tweeting or emailing
:20:45. > :20:49.on those topics now or send us This week a report
:20:50. > :20:52.by the Trussell Trust, an anti-poverty charity motivated
:20:53. > :20:54.by Christian principles, raised the alarm over how welfare
:20:55. > :20:56.reform has been affecting Over the last year, over 400
:20:57. > :21:04.Trussell Trust foodbanks have given out 1,182,954 emergency
:21:05. > :21:10.food supply parcels. And 37% of these went
:21:11. > :21:18.to feed children. 43% of all referrals
:21:19. > :21:21.to Trussell Trust food banks - made by professionals such as social
:21:22. > :21:22.workers, health visitors or schools liaison officers -
:21:23. > :21:25.were because state benefits had And in areas where the new Universal
:21:26. > :21:33.Credit is being tried out there's been a 17% rise in referrals
:21:34. > :21:36.for emergency food. Some families are having to wait
:21:37. > :21:38.over six weeks for their first Universal Credit payment,
:21:39. > :21:43.and the Trussell Trust reports these longer waits have led
:21:44. > :21:47.to problems with debt, rent arrears, evictions
:21:48. > :22:06.and mental health issues. A from the aforementioned Trussell
:22:07. > :22:09.Trust, what is concerning you about Welfare Reform Bill? It is deeply
:22:10. > :22:15.concerning that Trussell Trust food banks in the last 12 months have
:22:16. > :22:19.provided just shy of 1.3 million days worth of food supplies to
:22:20. > :22:27.people in crisis, this is in 2017 in the UK. That is 1.2 million to many,
:22:28. > :22:32.in our opinion. We should not need food banks, around 40% of people
:22:33. > :22:35.referred to food banks because of problems with benefit payments, that
:22:36. > :22:45.could be a delay to their benefit claim being processed. We have
:22:46. > :22:49.looked specifically at Universal Credit, which is the new, simpler
:22:50. > :22:54.benefit system that people are entitled to apply for and will be
:22:55. > :22:57.moving onto, and in those areas of the country where Universal Credit
:22:58. > :23:05.has been rolled out, in some cases there has been a threefold increase
:23:06. > :23:10.more in terms of referrals for emergency food... Let me stop you on
:23:11. > :23:15.Universal Credit, Deven Ghelani, you were at Iain Duncan Smith's Centre
:23:16. > :23:19.for Social Justice and one of the architects for Universal Credit,
:23:20. > :23:23.right? Over to you. I worked on this policy. When you ask if welfare
:23:24. > :23:27.reform is working, you are asking if you are moving from a less good
:23:28. > :23:30.system to a better one than you have currently. That has to be true.
:23:31. > :23:41.Right now there are three agencies and the benefit system administering
:23:42. > :23:43.the whole range of benefits which each have their own rules. That is
:23:44. > :23:46.an incredibly complicated position for people to be in and it is
:23:47. > :23:48.difficult for them to see what happens when they make different
:23:49. > :23:50.decisions like moving into work. The aim of Universal Credit is to
:23:51. > :23:52.simplify the system and support people into work. These are very
:23:53. > :23:58.serious transitional issues that we are talking about, I am not trying
:23:59. > :24:01.to reduce their impact at all. Are these problems inevitable? If you're
:24:02. > :24:04.going to grasp the nettle of changing the system as large as the
:24:05. > :24:09.benefit system no... People have got used to how it works now, that
:24:10. > :24:14.doesn't mean it is right but they have got used to it. What you are
:24:15. > :24:17.saying sounds very clinical, people are getting into debt, mental health
:24:18. > :24:22.issues are coming along and you seem to be saying... Some people might
:24:23. > :24:25.interpret it as saying let you have to crack a few eggs to make an
:24:26. > :24:31.omelette. People are really suffering. I am acknowledging that
:24:32. > :24:35.there will have to be changed. Some of the work that Trussell Trust
:24:36. > :24:39.doesn't terms of supporting people is good, the Government has to do an
:24:40. > :24:42.awful lot more in terms of supporting people through the
:24:43. > :24:48.six-week transition period. But this has been going on for seven years,
:24:49. > :24:51.since 2010. It has been a very slow roll-out, only now are larger groups
:24:52. > :24:55.of people being moved on to Universal Credit and some of the
:24:56. > :24:59.challenges are coming to the fore. Food banks are often the barometer
:25:00. > :25:05.where we see some of the impact of changes. In food banks we are seeing
:25:06. > :25:09.badgering the six-week delay, built into the system because Universal
:25:10. > :25:13.Credit is paid in arrears whereas the previous benefits once, people
:25:14. > :25:18.are going into debt in order to maintain household bills. Many
:25:19. > :25:22.people relying on benefits or maybe even surviving on a low household
:25:23. > :25:27.income who are in work have very little savings to get them through a
:25:28. > :25:30.period of six weeks. For many others, if our expected wages were
:25:31. > :25:34.going to be delayed for six weeks, there would be a whole range of
:25:35. > :25:37.people that would struggle. If somebody gets into debt than that
:25:38. > :25:44.creates problems for the household finances well beyond the six weeks.
:25:45. > :25:47.APPLAUSE Welfare reform is a pretty popular
:25:48. > :25:53.policy, Kate. It should not be. We will get onto
:25:54. > :25:57.that. How would you design a system where you would not have a better
:25:58. > :26:02.standard of living on welfare than in work? First, I want to say if I
:26:03. > :26:05.were the architect of Universal Credit and responsible for some of
:26:06. > :26:11.these welfare reforms, I would not be sleeping at night. We should not
:26:12. > :26:16.be relying on charities to prop up the Social Security system. That is
:26:17. > :26:20.an opinion. Now I will speak as a scientist. As a consequence of
:26:21. > :26:29.welfare reform, we are seeing rising child poverty, soon won in all of
:26:30. > :26:32.our children will be living in poverty. Two thirds of them in
:26:33. > :26:35.houses where somebody works. We are seeing rising infant mortality for
:26:36. > :26:40.the first time in decades. -- soon one in four of children will be
:26:41. > :26:44.living in poverty. Speaking as a citizen, I think we should be
:26:45. > :26:48.outraged at the morality of those reforms, we should be piling up the
:26:49. > :26:51.body bags and those tiny infant cough and outside number ten and
:26:52. > :26:55.number 11 Downing Street and making the Prime Minister and Chancellor
:26:56. > :27:01.walk back and it every day -- we should be piling up those tiny
:27:02. > :27:06.infant coffins. We are punishing the poorest, the disabled, the sick, we
:27:07. > :27:09.are doing it at levels unseen of in this country since the end of the
:27:10. > :27:14.Second World War. We should be ashamed of what we are doing.
:27:15. > :27:17.APPLAUSE You had to break-out two separate
:27:18. > :27:21.issues, one is changing how the system works and the second is how
:27:22. > :27:25.much money, and there are separate debates about how much money you put
:27:26. > :27:27.into the system, which is fundamentally what you are talking
:27:28. > :27:32.about. We have a general election coming up
:27:33. > :27:34.in a few weeks, Welfare Reform Bill see is that effectively take money
:27:35. > :27:44.out of the system are incredibly popular. -- welfare reform policies.
:27:45. > :27:47.People do not know about the damage they are doing because this is a
:27:48. > :27:51.six-hour only just starting to show up. There is a fly. Those deaths can
:27:52. > :27:57.be counted and are starting to be counted. Why do people have an idea
:27:58. > :28:03.that it is not there at the moment and we wanted to be fair and we want
:28:04. > :28:07.the situation to arise whereby... Because they are sold a pup about
:28:08. > :28:12.the idea that people on benefits are shirkers, do not work. The majority
:28:13. > :28:16.of people on benefits will be net contributed over their lifetime. If
:28:17. > :28:21.you are a decent society you look after the poor, the sick and the
:28:22. > :28:24.disabled until they are able to contribute, and if they can, you
:28:25. > :28:30.look after them always. You do not punish them for their situations. If
:28:31. > :28:33.you want to craft a new system with good intentions, that is great, but
:28:34. > :28:38.you must look at the unintended consequences. You have to look at
:28:39. > :28:43.the consequences of the current system. We are talking about change
:28:44. > :28:48.and welfare reform, that is a huge issue. It is easy to forget that the
:28:49. > :28:52.current system drives some of these similar outcomes that the Trussell
:28:53. > :28:55.Trust is talking about, largely driven by cuts in the amount we
:28:56. > :29:00.spend on welfare. The drivers beyond why people go to them has not
:29:01. > :29:04.changed massively. Is your drive ensuring that people have a better
:29:05. > :29:09.standard of living in work than on benefits? Is that your gold standard
:29:10. > :29:13.driver? You need a simpler system where people can see that will be a
:29:14. > :29:17.good and positive change, secondly that they are better off and will be
:29:18. > :29:23.financially better off. It is fantastic to get people into work,
:29:24. > :29:27.but not if it is precarious, low paid, zero I was contract. You need
:29:28. > :29:30.a system where work capability assessments do not drive 600
:29:31. > :29:36.suicides and ten people like Stephen away from the kind of employment he
:29:37. > :29:42.would like to do. -- and drive people like Stephen away. I have
:29:43. > :29:47.tremendous respect for the Trussell Trust, we wish it was less needed,
:29:48. > :29:51.but everybody accepts that when you look at the welfare reform issue, to
:29:52. > :29:54.be in work is better than to not speak because it leads to a higher
:29:55. > :29:58.standard living and better sense going forward. We want people who
:29:59. > :30:02.can work to be in work. Yes, there are clear problems that have been
:30:03. > :30:09.highlighted in the implementation of the new scheme, but we see record on
:30:10. > :30:13.climate rates, the highest on record since 1971. What kind of jobs they
:30:14. > :30:16.are?! That people want to do. People want to do that because they accept
:30:17. > :30:22.that if you can work you should and it is better to work. Lots of people
:30:23. > :30:23.on Universal Credit are working. But they do not earn enough. I want to
:30:24. > :30:35.go to the audience. I think it is very telling that when
:30:36. > :30:40.you describe what the two debates were, one of the debates that was
:30:41. > :30:43.not really happening is how this policy is essentially taking away
:30:44. > :30:48.the minimum living standards that people have. You cannot force people
:30:49. > :30:52.into work by just forcing them into extreme poverty. And also, when we
:30:53. > :30:56.are having these kind of debates, we need to remember that we are not
:30:57. > :31:04.simply talking about growth in jobs and so on. Most people in those jobs
:31:05. > :31:08.as well on zero our contracts, often in poverty as well, so I think we
:31:09. > :31:16.totally need to change the tone of the debate we are having around
:31:17. > :31:19.this. In the back row? I work for a Christian homeless charity called
:31:20. > :31:23.Restore which works alongside the food bank and works with Christians
:31:24. > :31:27.against poverty. We aim to get people into employment, we give them
:31:28. > :31:32.an address, we help them into their own accommodation at one of the
:31:33. > :31:36.barriers we have is the Department for Work and Pensions because their
:31:37. > :31:40.administration is terrible. You have a number for an enquiry line for
:31:41. > :31:44.summer day with no money to ring that isn't free. You are on hold for
:31:45. > :31:47.20 minutes. You are trying to get somebody in their own accommodation
:31:48. > :31:50.and then they are hit with a loan they have to pay back or an
:31:51. > :31:55.overpayment that they have to pay back and that has been set with the
:31:56. > :31:57.Department for Work and Pensions. Yes, you're trying to get people
:31:58. > :32:13.back to work but you shoot yourselves in the foot every single
:32:14. > :32:15.time. Guess, in the grey jumper? I think the welfare issue you are
:32:16. > :32:17.talking about is people making these decisions on behalf of the people
:32:18. > :32:19.are those who have never experienced what the most vulnerable are
:32:20. > :32:22.experiencing now? Is that the case, May? No, I got into reforming
:32:23. > :32:28.welfare after being on benefits myself. I found it a hugely
:32:29. > :32:31.complicated confusing mess, for Sunday he was good at navigating
:32:32. > :32:35.these things. It is not true to say that the people on the front line do
:32:36. > :32:39.not know about the real-life experience. One of the biggest
:32:40. > :32:43.challenges is when you are developing policy and one of the
:32:44. > :32:46.things we trying to now, is to make sure the experience of indentation
:32:47. > :32:54.gets up to that policy level some of the challenges, the administration
:32:55. > :33:01.challenges the DWP face, how to solve them and overcome them? It has
:33:02. > :33:05.been a failure? No, I think it is a huge challenge and it is a huge
:33:06. > :33:09.failing in the current system as well. We need to have a system in
:33:10. > :33:14.place where you can look at a screen and see a person's circumstances and
:33:15. > :33:17.note that person is entitled to this, that person needs that,
:33:18. > :33:20.instead of second guessing and then saying, I made a mistake, I will
:33:21. > :33:23.charge that person with an overpayment because it is not DWP's
:33:24. > :33:39.fault, it is the person's fault because
:33:40. > :33:41.they did not give the right information, apparently. I would
:33:42. > :33:44.agree with that. Rachel, you wanted to come in earlier on. There is a
:33:45. > :33:47.case about whose lives matter and whose experiences matter. I am
:33:48. > :33:51.concerned that a system which has been designed with the best of
:33:52. > :33:55.intentions but the lives of poor children and people with
:33:56. > :33:57.disabilities are being treated as the unintended consequences that we
:33:58. > :34:01.will sort out later of this great policy which will make everything
:34:02. > :34:06.work fine. Who do we really expect? To some people's lives matter more
:34:07. > :34:10.than others? Why are we not going first to the question how will this
:34:11. > :34:22.change affect on a day-to-day basis right now the
:34:23. > :34:26.lives of poor children? The people who have the least voice, the least
:34:27. > :34:28.visibility and cannot even vote yet? That should be the starting point.
:34:29. > :34:31.It would not be a bad place to start. We might find things get
:34:32. > :34:36.better. Stephen, how do your benefits work? Are you happy with
:34:37. > :34:43.the situation? Not at all. It comes round fortnightly and then I get a
:34:44. > :34:51.lump some from the DNA, it is now called Pip. I would say give Theresa
:34:52. > :35:01.May food bank about char and see how she feels about it. And also, I had
:35:02. > :35:05.so many food bank vouchers from the Trussell Trust and I think they did
:35:06. > :35:11.a wonderful job. If it was not for them, I would not be here today. I
:35:12. > :35:15.am grateful for my benefits, but I regret it that I have got to get
:35:16. > :35:19.benefits to live on, do you know what I mean? Because I do like it. I
:35:20. > :35:24.want to get a job, I want to lose weight and get a job. Who supports
:35:25. > :35:27.these benefit changes? You look at the polls, they are popular, who
:35:28. > :35:35.will put the hand up and say they're a good thing and we are moving in
:35:36. > :35:40.the right direction here? Nobody. Yes? I think it should be work that
:35:41. > :35:48.pays better than benefits. It is as simple as that. It is the direction
:35:49. > :35:53.of travel. Let's go to Adrian. The Trussell Trust does believe that the
:35:54. > :35:58.benefits system does need to be reformed. Historically, as you
:35:59. > :36:03.mentioned earlier, from 2004 when we first started our food bank network
:36:04. > :36:08.in the UK, historically, benefit issues have always been the problem.
:36:09. > :36:12.However, what really concerns us is the fact that there are a number of
:36:13. > :36:16.more people experiencing a problem because of the six-week delay with
:36:17. > :36:20.Universal Credit roll out, and it is only beginning to be rolled out
:36:21. > :36:24.across the country. What really concerns us is as some of these
:36:25. > :36:27.reforms have been implemented, we are seeing first-hand some of the
:36:28. > :36:31.impacts of things which are not going well. We are heartened by the
:36:32. > :36:34.fact that Damian Green in the Department for Work and Pensions
:36:35. > :36:36.have opened their door to us, we are talking about some of the things we
:36:37. > :36:56.have seen on the front line. Is it an improvement on Iain Duncan
:36:57. > :36:59.Smith? We believe there could be some easy changes which make a
:37:00. > :37:01.difference. We believe the six-week delay could be looked at and
:37:02. > :37:03.reduced. More information is needed for people who move onto this. There
:37:04. > :37:06.is local support available for people but they are aware of it as
:37:07. > :37:09.they are transferring onto Universal Credit. Isn't that bad point of what
:37:10. > :37:12.this stage roll-out is to find out what the major problems are. It is
:37:13. > :37:16.interesting to see the government's response. Damian Green has looked at
:37:17. > :37:20.changing work capability assessments. There is room within
:37:21. > :37:24.the prism of the necessary reforms for the system to look at how they
:37:25. > :37:30.are working and that is why they staged process is important. It has
:37:31. > :37:35.taken seven years. You are replacing six sets of benefits. It is a system
:37:36. > :37:40.so gargantuan that someone like May could not get through it when he was
:37:41. > :37:43.on it. The issue is one of simplicity. You need to get to the
:37:44. > :37:50.point of simplicity, understanding and making sure it does work. --
:37:51. > :37:55.someone like May could not get through it. One is the need for
:37:56. > :38:01.reform and the second one is resources. We need to put more
:38:02. > :38:05.resources in for the poor. If you want to discriminate against the
:38:06. > :38:08.poor, damage their health consequences, you will have an
:38:09. > :38:13.enormously horrible society in the future. We need to invest in the
:38:14. > :38:17.young. But if any political party says they are going to put up taxes
:38:18. > :38:21.they get the whole tax bombshell thing and a whole lot of bad stuff
:38:22. > :38:27.is thrown at them. We can overcome it. You can tax me more. Please tax
:38:28. > :38:33.me more! I am a higher rate taxpayer, I would love to be taxed
:38:34. > :38:44.more. Who would like to be taxed more? Who doesn't. Why don't you
:38:45. > :38:50.want to be taxed more, name at macro? Running a system is very
:38:51. > :38:55.complicated. This has been a huge feet so I run policy and practice
:38:56. > :39:00.right now. It is to have building an organisation from scratch. I am
:39:01. > :39:04.thinking business taxes here rather than personal taxes. You want to
:39:05. > :39:09.encourage people at work and entrepreneurship. And putting up
:39:10. > :39:14.taxes would discourage that? It certainly makes it harder. Yes? It
:39:15. > :39:22.is very disempowering, the whole process. If you are trying to deal
:39:23. > :39:25.with any part of the welfare system, trying to find out what your rights
:39:26. > :39:28.are, to find out and get access, the description from the guy at the
:39:29. > :39:32.back, trying to get on the phone, spending 20 minutes on a payphone,
:39:33. > :39:36.the people who are putting this position are those who find it
:39:37. > :39:40.hardest to express the situation are facing. Sometimes I feel the
:39:41. > :39:44.situation is intentionally set up that way to stop people accessing
:39:45. > :39:50.things they need the right to. I am happy to play more -- pay more taxes
:39:51. > :39:54.that I do not trust politicians to put it in the right place. I would
:39:55. > :39:58.like it to be earmarked for world their services. A short port to
:39:59. > :40:04.concentrate the minds of those watching, to sort the NHS out, how
:40:05. > :40:09.much would taxes have to go up by? It depends what choices you want to
:40:10. > :40:12.make. You will have to spend more and there is no reason why you
:40:13. > :40:17.can't. A lot of taxes have gone down. Inheriting stacks, corporation
:40:18. > :40:21.tax, and a lot of us who are on income tax and National Insurance
:40:22. > :40:26.would be prepared to pay more. Incrementally, if you want to put
:40:27. > :40:32.another five or 10% in, particularly for the NHS. We say we would be
:40:33. > :40:38.prepared to pay more in a situation like this. People are on sensually
:40:39. > :40:44.-- people are essentially un-willing to pay tax. If you want to be a
:40:45. > :40:48.citizen in this country you have to pay for the public services and for
:40:49. > :40:51.the last six years we have not been paying for public services and you
:40:52. > :40:56.can see the decay in the welfare system and the roads. If we vote for
:40:57. > :41:01.the Tories to go in again to continue that, we are very strange
:41:02. > :41:06.society which has damaged itself. You may say that. We will be
:41:07. > :41:07.balancing those comments on this programming the next six weeks.
:41:08. > :41:10.Thank you very much. You can join in all this
:41:11. > :41:12.morning's debates by logging on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,
:41:13. > :41:14.then follow the link Or you can tweet using
:41:15. > :41:22.the hashtag #bbctbq. Tell us what you think
:41:23. > :41:24.about our last Big Question too - are actions more
:41:25. > :41:27.important than beliefs? And if you'd like to be
:41:28. > :41:30.in the audience at a future show, We're in Salford on May
:41:31. > :41:37.14th for two programmes, the usual live programme
:41:38. > :41:39.in the morning, and we're recording a special
:41:40. > :41:43.on globalisation in the afternoon. And we're in London on May 28th,
:41:44. > :41:46.again for two shows, the afternoon edition
:41:47. > :41:47.being a special on Friday was the seventh
:41:48. > :41:57."Pay it Forward Day", inspired by the film of the same
:41:58. > :42:00.name in which a young boy does three good turns for strangers
:42:01. > :42:03.in need but on condition that they It's like a rolling version
:42:04. > :42:11.of the Good Samaritan. And this year, the organisers
:42:12. > :42:14.are hoping to inspire over 10 million acts of kindness
:42:15. > :42:17.in over 75 countries. But some religions put more emphasis
:42:18. > :42:22.and offer hopes of salvation based on what you believe,
:42:23. > :42:25.whether you pray or take part in the sacraments,
:42:26. > :42:27.rather than whether your deeds Are actions more
:42:28. > :42:42.important than beliefs? I am delighted to welcome you, Mark,
:42:43. > :42:48.Mark Cosens, from the church of Jesus and the latter-day Saints, the
:42:49. > :42:53.Mormons. You believe it is very important to convert people, to get
:42:54. > :42:59.people into your belief system. I am fascinated, even those who are dead,
:43:00. > :43:04.a sort of retro act of conversion so that they can enter the kingdom of
:43:05. > :43:08.heaven. Clearly, for you, it is what you can believe. An atheist can do
:43:09. > :43:13.wonderful things, save lots of people, but if they are not a
:43:14. > :43:17.Mormon... That is a common misconception, thank you very much
:43:18. > :43:23.for giving me the opportunity to clarify that! I love to stand
:43:24. > :43:28.corrected. I am a member of that church. I do not speak for the whole
:43:29. > :43:37.church but I can share my understanding. So, belief and faith
:43:38. > :43:44.very important. What we do matters. We all have free choice, free will,
:43:45. > :43:56.and the way that we honour that and the sacrifices as a Christian, the
:43:57. > :44:01.sacrifice and grace, is very important in this life and also the
:44:02. > :44:08.life to come. Why do you spend so much time converting the dead? We
:44:09. > :44:10.believe that everybody is alive in some sense, we are all spiritual
:44:11. > :44:16.sons and daughters of God and everyone has the choice in this life
:44:17. > :44:20.or the next life to receive the information they need, to make
:44:21. > :44:24.choices about eternity. That seems to be saying to people, if you are
:44:25. > :44:34.not a Mormon, no access to the kingdom of heaven. Some Jewish
:44:35. > :44:37.people were extremely offended that you spent so much time converting
:44:38. > :44:42.people who had died. Does that not tell us that it is what you believe
:44:43. > :44:46.and what you adhere to rather than what you do? It is largely about
:44:47. > :44:53.family. If we are wanting to live with God one day forever, to be with
:44:54. > :44:58.the father who loves us forever, and family, then that is the highest
:44:59. > :45:01.blessing, we believe. But there are other ways in which there is
:45:02. > :45:08.contingency for all circumstances. So we have a Father in heaven who
:45:09. > :45:13.loves us, and Jesus Christ who made it possible for us all to be saved,
:45:14. > :45:16.that is everybody, to a degree. And then we believe there are benefits
:45:17. > :45:20.and blessings which come to us in this life and the next, according to
:45:21. > :45:25.the choices we make, and more importantly the people who we
:45:26. > :45:28.become. Are there people in heaven who are not Mormons? It depends on
:45:29. > :45:35.which degree of heaven you are talking about.
:45:36. > :45:40.Rachel, Christian studies at the University of Leeds, it is it
:45:41. > :45:46.essential to Christian theology, is it what you believe what you do? It
:45:47. > :45:52.is a difficult opposition. Think about the idea of worship, that is
:45:53. > :45:56.about what you trust in, Christian faith, at least, is much closer to
:45:57. > :46:02.trust than a list of propositions on which she signed up to take the box
:46:03. > :46:07.in. What do you trust, what is at the centre about you, what gives you
:46:08. > :46:11.value, what do you shape your life around? It will affect what say
:46:12. > :46:16.about things, it will affect what you do both in terms of prior, which
:46:17. > :46:24.is something you do, and in terms of action in relation to other people.
:46:25. > :46:29.Christians, their ultimate centre of value that they shape their lives
:46:30. > :46:33.around is the story of a homeless, politically, socially and
:46:34. > :46:38.marginalised victim of a miscarriage of justice and state violence. Name
:46:39. > :46:42.names! There are lots of very interesting questions that you might
:46:43. > :46:47.want to ask somebody who says there are -- says they are a follower of
:46:48. > :46:54.Jesus Christ, both in relation to what they say and what they believe.
:46:55. > :46:58.The other key point about faith, in Christian theology, this is the idea
:46:59. > :47:02.that the goodness of God is primary and the goodness of people is
:47:03. > :47:08.secondary. The goodness of people matters, but the point is not... The
:47:09. > :47:14.point of religion is not that I am good, it is that God is good. This
:47:15. > :47:18.would be a fairly standard way of presenting Christian theology. But
:47:19. > :47:29.what you do for other people is surely more important than what box
:47:30. > :47:34.you tick? Yes, but... I love theologians, yes, but. But the core
:47:35. > :47:42.thing is what is the centre of value, what do you worship, what
:47:43. > :47:44.makes you tick? It is not just actions, it is relationships,
:47:45. > :47:54.feelings, how you see the world, how you perceive other people, human
:47:55. > :47:59.nature. If you like, that radiates out into both beliefs and actions.
:48:00. > :48:15.It is where life is centred. Dan Hitchens, if I may, Catholic, of
:48:16. > :48:20.course. I think it is 40% of the SS were confessing Catholics. Do they
:48:21. > :48:22.have more of a chance, so long as they have a deathbed confession
:48:23. > :48:27.about all the bad stuff they did, more of a chance of getting eternal
:48:28. > :48:32.life than the people they killed? That is a terrible thing to off
:48:33. > :48:37.their relationship with God and give that all up. God is fire in that God
:48:38. > :48:42.offers a relationship to absolutely everybody, it does not matter if you
:48:43. > :48:47.are good, nice and respectable or a bad person. And if you turn your
:48:48. > :48:52.back? That is the worst thing that can happen. Sur Nicholas Windsor, an
:48:53. > :48:56.incredible man, he saved all of those Jewish children and decadent
:48:57. > :49:02.-- dedicated his life to saving lives, even talking about it he was
:49:03. > :49:07.amazing, he was an atheist, he turned his back on God, he lost his
:49:08. > :49:12.faith, and you are saying that is terrible? We can never give up hope
:49:13. > :49:18.for anyone. Christianity is offered... You are saying he will
:49:19. > :49:21.not be in heaven, if there is one? The Catholic Church has said that
:49:22. > :49:26.some people are in heaven, it has never said of anyone that they are
:49:27. > :49:32.not, there is always hope and mercy of that. Judaism does not start from
:49:33. > :49:36.this. Address what we were discussing? I am not terribly
:49:37. > :49:40.concerned about what happens in the afterlife, because I just don't
:49:41. > :49:45.know. Judaism is concerned about what we do today. I want to address
:49:46. > :49:51.the principle of simply you abandoned his face... I will be with
:49:52. > :49:55.you in a minute before we talk about Judaism, you went straight into your
:49:56. > :50:01.speech about Judaism, you grimaced. I have no God. But it does not
:50:02. > :50:05.prevent me being a member of society and doing everything I can to
:50:06. > :50:15.improve the lot of my fellow beings. APPLAUSE
:50:16. > :50:22.Judaism? I completely agree with that. For
:50:23. > :50:29.some people, says helps them to do good things, and that is the point.
:50:30. > :50:34.For Judaism we say it is founded on three things, prayer, learning and
:50:35. > :50:39.good deeds. We look at the bits of the Bible where it talks about
:50:40. > :50:44.justice, Justice shall you do. You can do good things without faith?
:50:45. > :50:48.Competently. Absolutely. Judaism doesn't actually regard you as
:50:49. > :50:52.needing to be Jewish to be a good person. We are not concerned about
:50:53. > :50:57.the afterlife, you don't need to be Jewish to be a good person.
:50:58. > :51:01.Nevertheless, for some people, their faith, their religion is what tells
:51:02. > :51:07.them to do good deeds. Despite the conversation you had with Mark, I
:51:08. > :51:10.know yesterday he was out planting trees in the local community because
:51:11. > :51:16.that is a good deed that needs doing, he is inspired by his faith,
:51:17. > :51:20.just as I am inspired by mine to be involved in mitzvah Day, energy
:51:21. > :51:24.which date where we try to make a difference to the community, we give
:51:25. > :51:28.up time and money to collect food for the food bank or to help tidy up
:51:29. > :51:35.the garden of the homeless shelter. But hopefully you would do that if
:51:36. > :51:41.you were an atheist? For some people, that is enough. For others,
:51:42. > :51:44.the motivation, the challenge comes from my face. Is that self interest
:51:45. > :51:52.because you want to get through the pearly gates? For some people, but
:51:53. > :51:56.not in a Jewish context. As far as Judaism, the question we ask
:51:57. > :52:01.ourselves is what can I do to live the good life? And I cannot do that
:52:02. > :52:05.simply through prior and learning, it has to involves good deeds. What
:52:06. > :52:10.about a monkey on his monastery, never out of his cell? I will not
:52:11. > :52:19.answer for him. Who leads a good life? Nobody?! The lady in the back
:52:20. > :52:23.row? The two different ways that you phrase the question of very
:52:24. > :52:30.interesting. One says is it about good deeds versus belief, and one
:52:31. > :52:35.version said is it about good deeds versus worship? I think everybody
:52:36. > :52:37.has to look at their motives for doing good deeds, because in
:52:38. > :52:44.everybody's life there comes the moment where you think this homeless
:52:45. > :52:50.guy is not grateful for what I am doing for him, why am I doing it?
:52:51. > :52:53.Whether you are an atheist or a humanist or a Zen Buddhist, whoever
:52:54. > :52:59.you are, there is something in you telling you why you are doing that,
:53:00. > :53:03.and at times you had to find that. My own experience, if we look at the
:53:04. > :53:10.worship, people expressing a religious faith, in a power greater
:53:11. > :53:14.than themselves -- than themselves, whether the Christian God or another
:53:15. > :53:18.God, most of the people I see in Church three times a week also the
:53:19. > :53:22.people helping the homeless three times a week. The more religious
:53:23. > :53:27.people genuinely are, the more they seem to get engaged with their
:53:28. > :53:33.fellow human beings and to the nitty-gritty of helping each other.
:53:34. > :53:38.Discuss. That was a fascinating moment that you ask who he feels
:53:39. > :53:42.they lead a good life? People in this room do amazing things, working
:53:43. > :53:45.for the Trussell Trust, I am sure there are others doing incredible
:53:46. > :53:49.things, nobody can really say they read a good life, that is the
:53:50. > :53:53.Christian claim that however many good things you do, you can do all
:53:54. > :53:57.the most wonderful things but we need something more... But those
:53:58. > :54:03.people have a humanistic philosophy and want to make the world a better
:54:04. > :54:06.place but they do not believe in the sky fairy, as they put it, they
:54:07. > :54:10.would find that extremely offensive that you have to have God to be able
:54:11. > :54:15.to do good. Who would like to express a view en masse? I don't
:54:16. > :54:20.need is a mythical creature in the sky to tell me how to good things.
:54:21. > :54:25.APPLAUSE I don't believe it will happen
:54:26. > :54:29.anyway. It would be even better if you did?! I think this is the only
:54:30. > :54:33.chance we get, we will not have a second chance, let's do good things
:54:34. > :54:39.now and not bother about somebody up there telling us what is right and
:54:40. > :54:46.what is wrong. In the maroon top? I think that is maroon. I think so! I
:54:47. > :54:50.personally find that my religion encourages me to be a good person,
:54:51. > :54:58.but I would never force my opinion on anyone. I believe strongly that
:54:59. > :55:03.regardless of beliefs, it is an individual responsibility to be a
:55:04. > :55:10.good and kind person and monks are society. I think that is the most
:55:11. > :55:16.important thing amongst all of us. -- be a good and kind person amongst
:55:17. > :55:20.our society. Empathy predates religion. Rachel? It is interesting
:55:21. > :55:24.that nobody was prepared to put their hands up and say they were a
:55:25. > :55:31.good person. They are hiding their lights under bushels. The point I
:55:32. > :55:35.was trying to make is that one very simple expression of the Christian
:55:36. > :55:39.gospel is it does not matter, God lives you anyway. It is not that you
:55:40. > :55:45.need to believe and that will help you to be good, it is more baseline
:55:46. > :55:49.than that. You are loved, you matter, you deserve respect, you are
:55:50. > :55:54.worthy whatever, yeah? Whether you are living a good life or not. It
:55:55. > :56:07.comes back to what I said earlier, it is about the sort of society that
:56:08. > :56:10.we are, are we prepared to look at everyone and say, yes, you matter?
:56:11. > :56:12.Are we prepared to have welfare and health policies and interactions in
:56:13. > :56:14.political advice which will say that to everybody. You are a Quaker, you
:56:15. > :56:20.would be against a military budget, for example? Yes. You would want to
:56:21. > :56:27.plough that money, the weaponry that we sell and the military budget,
:56:28. > :56:34.back into welfare and so forth? Yes. But I am also saying that just
:56:35. > :56:42.because... Being a Quaker house to do with being turned towards
:56:43. > :56:45.nonviolence, being called into a path of nonviolence. It does not
:56:46. > :56:53.mean knowing where that will take me and it does not mean being able to
:56:54. > :56:57.impose it on anyone. The good thing about nonviolence, by definition you
:56:58. > :57:01.cannot force anybody else to do it. This is the path I walk. I see that
:57:02. > :57:05.in a lot of things that are the people say. Life is a test, nobody
:57:06. > :57:14.should force anybody to believe or do anything... Unless they are dead!
:57:15. > :57:20.That is very funny... That is what you do! We don't. Nobody is forced
:57:21. > :57:24.to do anything, dead or alive. We have choice always. If we want to be
:57:25. > :57:30.with our families, there needs to be away we are unified. I do believe in
:57:31. > :57:37.God, but what I believe in is that when you die, you get judged, when
:57:38. > :57:41.the time comes, you get judged. When you die... You either go to heaven
:57:42. > :57:47.or hell, that is what I believe. But what I do believe in... When you
:57:48. > :57:50.become a Christian you believe in giving to the needy, the poor,
:57:51. > :57:57.living a different life to what you are reading before. My life was
:57:58. > :58:06.really nasty and bad, but now I am trying to lead a life... Your faith
:58:07. > :58:10.has helped you? Then, that is the thing, people believing that their
:58:11. > :58:15.belief leads them to be good? 20 seconds. Whatever the basis for
:58:16. > :58:20.people acting to do good, whether religion or not, it does not really
:58:21. > :58:25.matter. What I would say is that for a lot of people, religion is what
:58:26. > :58:30.gets them there. If we look back, it is in the Ten Commandments, the
:58:31. > :58:35.morale to that religion gives us. Religion can make you very, very bad
:58:36. > :58:38.as well. Absolutely, but religion has a bad rap. Thank you.
:58:39. > :58:40.As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.
:58:41. > :58:43.We're back from York next Sunday for a special on humanitarianism,
:58:44. > :58:46.Thank you for watching. Thank you very much indeed.
:58:47. > :58:52.APPLAUSE