Episode 16

0:00:04 > 0:00:08Today on The Big Questions: Humanitarianism - has military

0:00:08 > 0:00:11intervention, peacekeeping and aid done more harm than good?

0:00:11 > 0:00:12Good morning.

0:00:27 > 0:00:28Good morning.

0:00:28 > 0:00:29I'm Nicky Campbell.

0:00:29 > 0:00:30Welcome to The Big Questions.

0:00:30 > 0:00:35Today, we are back at Manor Church of England

0:00:35 > 0:00:38Academy in York to debate one very big question: Has humanitarianism

0:00:38 > 0:00:39done more harm than good?

0:00:39 > 0:00:44Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.

0:00:44 > 0:00:46Last month, the head of the UN's office

0:00:46 > 0:00:47on humanitarian affairs warned that

0:00:47 > 0:00:50the world is facing the biggest humanitarian crisis since the United

0:00:50 > 0:00:57Nations was founded in 1945.

0:00:57 > 0:00:59More than 20 million people face the threat

0:00:59 > 0:01:01of starvation or death from

0:01:01 > 0:01:02disease in Yemen, Somalia, South Sudan and Nigeria.

0:01:02 > 0:01:05And despite the UN's responsibility to protect

0:01:05 > 0:01:15civilians in areas of ongoing conflict,

0:01:15 > 0:01:16millions across Africa and the

0:01:16 > 0:01:19Middle East have been killed in fighting or to flee only to face

0:01:19 > 0:01:22death and disease in refugee camps while they are trying to escape to

0:01:22 > 0:01:23Europe.

0:01:23 > 0:01:24Whatever the good intentions, humanitarian

0:01:24 > 0:01:28intervention is not saving the lives of the innocents, nor enabling new

0:01:28 > 0:01:38beginnings elsewhere for many millions of men, women and children.

0:01:40 > 0:01:43For all too many, their lives will be much worse or

0:01:43 > 0:01:44cut tragically short.

0:01:44 > 0:01:47Well, to debate the effectiveness or otherwise of humanitarian action and

0:01:47 > 0:01:49aid, we've assembled distinguished humanitarians, aid workers,

0:01:49 > 0:01:51fundraisers, human rights activists and experts on development economic

0:01:51 > 0:01:54and international law and security.

0:01:54 > 0:02:04And of course, you can join in, too, on Twitter or online.

0:02:05 > 0:02:06Just logon to BBC.co.uk/thebigquestions.

0:02:06 > 0:02:08Follow the link to the online discussion,

0:02:08 > 0:02:10and lots of encouragement and contributions from our excellent,

0:02:10 > 0:02:12open hearted and open-minded York audience.

0:02:12 > 0:02:13Has humanitarianism done more harm than good?

0:02:13 > 0:02:15I want to start concentrating on military

0:02:15 > 0:02:18intervention.

0:02:18 > 0:02:22Philip, I'll come to you first, Philip Cunliffe,

0:02:22 > 0:02:24International Conflict, Kent University.

0:02:24 > 0:02:28There have been some catastrophically bad judgments,

0:02:28 > 0:02:33haven't there?

0:02:33 > 0:02:35But surely there are times, and there will always be

0:02:35 > 0:02:40times, when we have to send in the military to save lives.

0:02:40 > 0:02:42No, I think it's a justification for permanent

0:02:42 > 0:02:45warfare, and that's exactly what we've had for the last 25-30

0:02:45 > 0:02:47years, since the end of the Cold War, and

0:02:47 > 0:02:53humanitarianism has allowed that to happen.

0:02:53 > 0:02:56If you look at the record, it's left a train of shattered

0:02:56 > 0:02:58countries in its wake, or at best frozen conflicts and protectorates

0:02:58 > 0:03:00which have had to be run by international administrators.

0:03:00 > 0:03:02The record has been disastrous, and even

0:03:02 > 0:03:04worse, it's cultivated this saviour complex

0:03:04 > 0:03:06in Western countries and in

0:03:06 > 0:03:12Britain that we are able to solve all problems simply by showering aid

0:03:12 > 0:03:14packages or cruise missiles or bombs, that anything can be solved

0:03:14 > 0:03:18by more charity and more bombs, and it's a terrifying and totally

0:03:18 > 0:03:19dystopian view of world politics.

0:03:19 > 0:03:26The saviour complex is interesting.

0:03:26 > 0:03:28Do you think that relates to our military

0:03:28 > 0:03:30interventions as well - we

0:03:30 > 0:03:33are the cavalry going in to save the situation?

0:03:33 > 0:03:38Yes.

0:03:38 > 0:03:40That's one view, but then, we are saving

0:03:40 > 0:03:41situations, saving people from genocide,

0:03:41 > 0:03:45very often, aren't we?

0:03:45 > 0:03:46Or we should be.

0:03:46 > 0:03:47It's not...

0:03:47 > 0:03:48I can't think of...

0:03:48 > 0:03:50It's like I say, this constant amnesia, where every

0:03:50 > 0:03:52new crisis, we always ask the same questions

0:03:52 > 0:03:54as if we are incapable of

0:03:54 > 0:03:56absorbing the record that we can see right before our eyes.

0:03:56 > 0:03:58We only need to look at...

0:03:58 > 0:04:00We went into Iraq and then totally forgot about that.

0:04:00 > 0:04:01Iraq's a total disaster.

0:04:01 > 0:04:04We went into Libya, and we seem to have

0:04:04 > 0:04:06forgotten about everything that happened in Libya, and now talking

0:04:06 > 0:04:08about escalating intervention in Syria.

0:04:08 > 0:04:11And there is no situation that can't be made worse by Western

0:04:11 > 0:04:12intervention.

0:04:12 > 0:04:14Should we have intervened in Rwanda?

0:04:14 > 0:04:18I don't think that it would have made a

0:04:18 > 0:04:21difference, short of occupying the country entirely to stop the

0:04:21 > 0:04:25intensity of the violence and massacres at the time.

0:04:25 > 0:04:27I think it would have taken far more intervention

0:04:27 > 0:04:31than people imagine to

0:04:31 > 0:04:34be able to have helped what happened there in the early '90s.

0:04:34 > 0:04:36Alan Mendoza, you know what they say -

0:04:36 > 0:04:38you can't drop democracy from the sky.

0:04:38 > 0:04:45What do you think about what Philip is saying there about, you

0:04:45 > 0:04:46know, we should just basically butt out?

0:04:46 > 0:04:52You're right - you can't drop democracy from the sky.

0:04:52 > 0:04:54I don't think anyone on this panel would

0:04:54 > 0:04:55suggest you can.

0:04:55 > 0:04:58I think Philip may be getting a bit confused, though,

0:04:58 > 0:05:00with the types of intervention he is talking about.

0:05:00 > 0:05:03Let's put this on the table now, I'm sure some people want

0:05:03 > 0:05:06to argue about it, but nobody went into Iraq for humanitarian reasons.

0:05:06 > 0:05:08We went into Iraq for national security, weapons of mass

0:05:08 > 0:05:09destruction reasons.

0:05:09 > 0:05:11What about the gassing of the Kurds?

0:05:11 > 0:05:13We heard all about the human rights record of

0:05:13 > 0:05:14Saddam Hussein.

0:05:14 > 0:05:17That was not the case the House of Commons voted on.

0:05:17 > 0:05:19Saddam Hussein was castigated as a dictator, and that was the

0:05:19 > 0:05:21justification that Tony Blair gave to go into Iraq.

0:05:21 > 0:05:23The justification was that he was developing weapons

0:05:23 > 0:05:24of mass destruction.

0:05:24 > 0:05:25That was the justification.

0:05:25 > 0:05:26The political justification given...

0:05:26 > 0:05:27One at a time.

0:05:27 > 0:05:29It was not a humanitarian conflict.

0:05:29 > 0:05:31It wasn't, not at all in that case.

0:05:31 > 0:05:33And you can argue all you like about that,

0:05:33 > 0:05:34it was not what was presented.

0:05:34 > 0:05:37There were arguments around that, you are correct, but it

0:05:37 > 0:05:38was not why we went into Iraq.

0:05:38 > 0:05:40And I think it's very callous almost to

0:05:40 > 0:05:44say that we can do nothing to stop the mass murder of hundreds of

0:05:44 > 0:05:45thousands of people.

0:05:45 > 0:05:46And it is not a western construct.

0:05:46 > 0:05:48The response that we protect came from the United

0:05:48 > 0:05:49Nations summit meeting.

0:05:49 > 0:05:52You have seen that it is a United Nations

0:05:52 > 0:05:54agenda to bring in the possibility of rescuing people in those states

0:05:54 > 0:05:57where the state is either not defending mass atrocities, or rather

0:05:57 > 0:05:58is actually complicit within them.

0:05:58 > 0:06:01And you will know that in previous R2P interventions, like Libya...

0:06:01 > 0:06:03It's a desperate, lawyerly account.

0:06:03 > 0:06:07Philip, you can respond now.

0:06:07 > 0:06:10It's a desperate, lawyerly account to rejig

0:06:10 > 0:06:12definitions retrospectively.

0:06:12 > 0:06:14It's very clear that the way in which...

0:06:14 > 0:06:15No, you just want everyone to die.

0:06:15 > 0:06:16That's what you want.

0:06:16 > 0:06:19Let him respond, please.

0:06:19 > 0:06:21To intervene in Iraq, it was a political

0:06:21 > 0:06:23justification to end Saddam Hussein's tyranny.

0:06:23 > 0:06:25The weapons of mass destruction was very quickly

0:06:25 > 0:06:28junked and they very quickly moved to a humanitarian rationale to go

0:06:28 > 0:06:29into Iraq.

0:06:29 > 0:06:34The responsibility to protect is the re-creation of the

0:06:34 > 0:06:37saviour complex, and it doesn't matter whether it comes from

0:06:37 > 0:06:39London, New York or Washington, the point is that it's

0:06:39 > 0:06:49the justification for constant instant pension and

0:06:51 > 0:06:52--

0:06:52 > 0:06:54the justification for constant intervention and

0:06:54 > 0:06:55constant warfare.

0:06:55 > 0:06:56Will you condemn the global anti-apartheid movement

0:06:56 > 0:06:59in solidarity with black South Africans as a saviour complex?

0:06:59 > 0:07:00Was their war in South Africa?

0:07:00 > 0:07:01Did people go to war?

0:07:01 > 0:07:02No, the principal.

0:07:02 > 0:07:04The principle that people in South Africa

0:07:04 > 0:07:05asked for solidarity - are

0:07:05 > 0:07:08you saying that all the Westerners who support the anti-apartheid

0:07:08 > 0:07:11movement are all white saviours and we should have left black South

0:07:11 > 0:07:12Africans to suffer under apartheid?

0:07:12 > 0:07:14I think it's and entirely misguided view of what

0:07:14 > 0:07:16I think it's an entirely misguided view of what

0:07:16 > 0:07:17happened in South Africa.

0:07:17 > 0:07:19What happened in South Africa was brought

0:07:19 > 0:07:20about through internal change.

0:07:20 > 0:07:22The idea that it was all purely international pressure coming

0:07:22 > 0:07:23from...

0:07:23 > 0:07:25I never said that, I never said that.

0:07:25 > 0:07:26I said solidarity.

0:07:26 > 0:07:29You can't make a distinction between what you call a white saviour

0:07:29 > 0:07:30complex and global solidarity.

0:07:30 > 0:07:32First of all, I didn't say white saviour,

0:07:32 > 0:07:33I said saviour complex.

0:07:33 > 0:07:34OK.

0:07:34 > 0:07:35And it's not the monopoly of Western countries, unfortunately.

0:07:40 > 0:07:42Let me bring Olivia in here.

0:07:42 > 0:07:43It's fascinating.

0:07:43 > 0:07:46Olivia, let's take it to Rwanda, because I know you have a

0:07:46 > 0:07:47Rwandan ancestry.

0:07:47 > 0:07:49An extraordinary country, it was on its knees.

0:07:49 > 0:07:50Now there are amazing things happening

0:07:50 > 0:07:51in Rwanda.

0:07:51 > 0:07:54But back then, it was desperate, millions died in the

0:07:54 > 0:07:55genocide, and we did nothing.

0:07:55 > 0:07:57Isn't there a lesson from history that we

0:07:57 > 0:08:00should have done something to save lives, and in the future we should

0:08:00 > 0:08:02always do something if we can save lives?

0:08:02 > 0:08:03So, I was about...

0:08:03 > 0:08:05I was a teenager, I think, when the genocide

0:08:05 > 0:08:08happened in '94, and looking back at it, I think the reason why

0:08:08 > 0:08:09I started studying intervention was actually

0:08:09 > 0:08:13me watching the tragedy unfold, and in school, I was growing up in

0:08:13 > 0:08:15Belgium, getting all this nice information about the West having

0:08:15 > 0:08:17thought about human rights, we have the UN,

0:08:17 > 0:08:18and all these things.

0:08:18 > 0:08:19So, really, this clash between the reality

0:08:19 > 0:08:21of nobody showing up, and on

0:08:21 > 0:08:24the other hand, having all this information about our superiority,

0:08:24 > 0:08:26to some extent.

0:08:26 > 0:08:29So, for a long time, I was thinking, yes, the only answer

0:08:29 > 0:08:32is, we should have done something.

0:08:32 > 0:08:35And if you try to answer the question on a very short-term basis,

0:08:35 > 0:08:37obviously, if you were able to do something,

0:08:37 > 0:08:39we should have, but the

0:08:39 > 0:08:42most important information is that we don't and we didn't.

0:08:42 > 0:08:45So, there is something really wrong with the

0:08:45 > 0:08:48institutions as we have them, and I think we really need to

0:08:48 > 0:08:49fundamentally rethink them.

0:08:49 > 0:08:52And one of the things you can do is, when we

0:08:52 > 0:08:56speak about intervention and we say it's a question about doing

0:08:56 > 0:09:02something or nothing, that's the biggest misguided question ever,

0:09:02 > 0:09:05even if you bring in South Africa, because it seems as if we just walk

0:09:05 > 0:09:08into a situation we had nothing to do

0:09:08 > 0:09:09with before, and now we have the

0:09:09 > 0:09:11question, should we do something or not?

0:09:11 > 0:09:13But is Peter's point about solidarity with our fellow human

0:09:13 > 0:09:20beings, trying to save them...

0:09:20 > 0:09:22But solidarity requires intervention.

0:09:22 > 0:09:23You have to remember, as you are talking

0:09:23 > 0:09:26about Rwanda, it was military intervention that actually brought

0:09:26 > 0:09:27the genocide to an end.

0:09:27 > 0:09:29It wasn't a UN military intervention, but it was

0:09:29 > 0:09:31the Rwandan Patriotic Front, backed by Ugandan forces.

0:09:31 > 0:09:36The same in Cambodia.

0:09:36 > 0:09:38It was a Vietnamese military intervention that stopped the

0:09:38 > 0:09:39genocide in Cambodia.

0:09:39 > 0:09:41It's the same in every other genocide in history

0:09:41 > 0:09:44that you can think of, right from Hitler's time, that it is only

0:09:44 > 0:09:48through the use of force that these past dictators were brought to an

0:09:48 > 0:09:48end.

0:09:48 > 0:09:53So, when we say no military, that humanitarian intervention is

0:09:53 > 0:09:56bad, I think we have to remember that we have to distinguish between

0:09:56 > 0:09:58extreme circumstances like genocide and the trigger-happy interventions

0:09:58 > 0:10:03that we are seeing nowadays, so I am with you on some of those points.

0:10:03 > 0:10:06Just to tell everyone, you were one of the first in Rwanda,

0:10:06 > 0:10:08in the first 100 days after the genocide.

0:10:08 > 0:10:14Yes, I saw it with my own eyes.

0:10:14 > 0:10:17The blood was dripping down the walls of the

0:10:17 > 0:10:19churches of Rwanda when I was actually in Kigali, within the

0:10:19 > 0:10:20genocide period.

0:10:20 > 0:10:24And I wished someone had intervened.

0:10:24 > 0:10:27It was the people of Rwanda who intervened, the

0:10:27 > 0:10:31exiles of Rwanda, so never say that intervention is wrong and so on.

0:10:31 > 0:10:35I think what is disgraceful is that the UN interventions of the day, led

0:10:35 > 0:10:38by the Security Council, and we must remember that the UK

0:10:38 > 0:10:41is part of it and the UK pays 5% of the $8 billion

0:10:41 > 0:10:42world UN peacekeeping budget.

0:10:42 > 0:10:49Most of it is a waste of time because

0:10:49 > 0:10:51these peacekeepers are rubbish, and they are led by leaders who are

0:10:51 > 0:10:55rubbish themselves.

0:10:55 > 0:10:57So the issue is not about intervention.

0:10:57 > 0:11:02The issue is with the quality of military

0:11:02 > 0:11:04interventions that we are seeing nowadays, which is degrading this

0:11:04 > 0:11:06instrument.

0:11:06 > 0:11:10If you go back a few decades to the foundation of the UN,

0:11:10 > 0:11:17the early intervention in the Congo, and many of the things that happened

0:11:17 > 0:11:19in the '40s, '50s and '60s.

0:11:19 > 0:11:21It was a completely different world, where UN

0:11:21 > 0:11:24peacekeeping actually did a lot to bring about stability in a world

0:11:24 > 0:11:27which was very unstable at the time because of decolonisation and so

0:11:27 > 0:11:28many other factors at that time.

0:11:28 > 0:11:30So, it's very important not to throw the

0:11:30 > 0:11:31baby out with the bath water.

0:11:31 > 0:11:33Richard, I will be with you.

0:11:33 > 0:11:35I'm going to come to Alan as well.

0:11:35 > 0:11:36Olivia, just...

0:11:36 > 0:11:39Is it a fact, as well, that people are suspicious of

0:11:39 > 0:11:41motives when there is intervention?

0:11:41 > 0:11:44Because sometimes, when there is not intervention,

0:11:44 > 0:11:47people infer that to be the case because it's not in the

0:11:47 > 0:11:51interest of the powers to intervene?

0:11:51 > 0:11:54You look at parts of the world where maybe there should be interventions

0:11:54 > 0:11:57and there aren't, and you look at parts where there are interventions

0:11:57 > 0:11:59and you think, I wonder why?

0:11:59 > 0:12:00Is it about oil?

0:12:00 > 0:12:04No oil in Rwanda - that's the roundabout point I'm making.

0:12:04 > 0:12:08Yeah, I was trying to figure out whether we could find a pattern in

0:12:08 > 0:12:11terms of motives and the presence of resources or not.

0:12:11 > 0:12:15I do think that motivations do matter to some

0:12:15 > 0:12:21extent, but in the examples that were given before, one of the most

0:12:21 > 0:12:28successful interventions really depend on those that are making the

0:12:28 > 0:12:31decisions and actually doing it, to what extent they are very closely

0:12:31 > 0:12:33linked to the consequences of the outcome.

0:12:33 > 0:12:35So, indeed, it's not always just a problem about being

0:12:35 > 0:12:42super-pacifist and being against the use of weapons of the military.

0:12:42 > 0:12:46There are moments where we shouldn't even have a debate and go and save

0:12:46 > 0:12:48the people if we have to.

0:12:48 > 0:12:50On the other hand, if you see a lot of the

0:12:50 > 0:12:53interventions, the fact that it's never the situation on the ground

0:12:53 > 0:12:58that actually makes us decide to go or not to go, it's something...

0:12:58 > 0:13:01It should make us pause a minute, because people can actually die in

0:13:01 > 0:13:04millions and we don't do anything.

0:13:04 > 0:13:06And other times, we go in preventatively for imagined

0:13:06 > 0:13:09weapons of mass destruction.

0:13:09 > 0:13:13So, for me, that raises the question, even

0:13:13 > 0:13:16an institution like the UN, even if it used to work differently,

0:13:16 > 0:13:18which I'm not sure it did, but it was not

0:13:18 > 0:13:20necessarily set up to be a

0:13:20 > 0:13:26system that saves people.

0:13:26 > 0:13:28It was a system that actually keeps the

0:13:28 > 0:13:33status quo.

0:13:33 > 0:13:36And the status quo at the moment that it was setup was a

0:13:36 > 0:13:37deeply colonial, unequal system.

0:13:37 > 0:13:39So, today as well, the way the voting

0:13:39 > 0:13:42system, the way that political decisions are made are not to save

0:13:42 > 0:13:45the weaker ones, it's an institution that reproduces power.

0:13:45 > 0:13:46Peter...

0:13:46 > 0:13:48I'm generally against military intervention.

0:13:48 > 0:13:53I think it has been, on the whole, disastrous, but I do

0:13:53 > 0:13:56want to say that we keep on looking at these issues mostly from a

0:13:56 > 0:14:00Western perspective, and I think that's fundamentally flawed.

0:14:00 > 0:14:02We have to look at these issues from the

0:14:02 > 0:14:05perspective of the people in those countries and what they want.

0:14:05 > 0:14:11We have to listen to them.

0:14:11 > 0:14:13Where in the world now is what's

0:14:13 > 0:14:15happening in a particular country would justify military

0:14:15 > 0:14:16intervention from outside?

0:14:16 > 0:14:20I can't see any example, but to go back to the point about listening to

0:14:20 > 0:14:22the people in the country, the Syrian democratic and civil

0:14:22 > 0:14:26society activists have been saying for years

0:14:26 > 0:14:29that they wanted a UN mandated no bomb zone -

0:14:29 > 0:14:31that is, certain zones of Syria where no aerial bombardment

0:14:31 > 0:14:40would be permitted in order to protect the civilian populations.

0:14:40 > 0:14:42They also wanted civilian safe havens within Syria where refugees

0:14:42 > 0:14:45could flee and find a safe place where they would be attacked.

0:14:45 > 0:14:46Again, supervised by the UN.

0:14:46 > 0:14:49They also wanted UN monitors to monitor human

0:14:49 > 0:14:52rights observance or nonobservance, and peacekeepers.

0:14:52 > 0:14:54Now, every government in the world has ignored

0:14:54 > 0:14:59those requests.

0:14:59 > 0:15:01These are from the people of Syria themselves - the

0:15:01 > 0:15:03Democrats, the leftists, the civil society groups.

0:15:03 > 0:15:05They have been asking what they wanted, and we've

0:15:05 > 0:15:07been ignoring them.

0:15:07 > 0:15:09I think that's a fundamental mistake, and I was

0:15:09 > 0:15:10appalled that last December when there was

0:15:10 > 0:15:12a debate on this issue in

0:15:12 > 0:15:18the House of Commons, nobody pressed even for humanitarian aid drops.

0:15:18 > 0:15:22Not bombs, humanitarian aid drops of food, fuel and medicine

0:15:22 > 0:15:24to besieged civilian populations, which there

0:15:24 > 0:15:26had been a mandate from in the United Nations vote

0:15:26 > 0:15:29at the beginning of December.

0:15:29 > 0:15:32Nobody in our Parliament pushed and demanded a

0:15:32 > 0:15:38vote to make those aid drops happen.

0:15:38 > 0:15:44Philip...

0:15:44 > 0:15:49I think this kind of naive thinking that constantly helps to

0:15:49 > 0:15:50recreate these situations as well.

0:15:50 > 0:15:52Safe havens and no-fly zones are the slippery

0:15:52 > 0:15:54slope towards bombing, peacekeepers, to introducing further

0:15:54 > 0:15:55military force into the situation.

0:15:55 > 0:15:58Peter mentioned solidarity before.

0:15:58 > 0:16:02I'd be much more sympathetic to claims for solidarity if I heard

0:16:02 > 0:16:05more people making the case that we should let in Syrian

0:16:05 > 0:16:08refugees rather than sadistically imprisoning them

0:16:08 > 0:16:11in no-fly zones or safe havens within the middle of a war zone, or

0:16:11 > 0:16:19cutting deals with Turkey and Libya in order

0:16:19 > 0:16:22cutting deals with Turkey and Libya in order to trap migrants in

0:16:22 > 0:16:28those countries.

0:16:28 > 0:16:31So, as far as solidarity goes, I'd be much more

0:16:31 > 0:16:33impressed if I heard more cases being made for Syrian refugees

0:16:33 > 0:16:36rather than for bombing more countries, or for these utterly

0:16:36 > 0:16:39misguided and naive ideas of safe havens and no-fly zones, which have

0:16:39 > 0:16:40to be enforced by Western military power...

0:16:40 > 0:16:41No.

0:16:41 > 0:16:44And which end up being a justification for bombs in the

0:16:44 > 0:16:45future.

0:16:45 > 0:16:47I said, the Syrian civil society and democratic activists

0:16:47 > 0:16:50want a UN mandated no bombing zone and civilian safe haven.

0:16:50 > 0:16:52Who is going to mandate the no-fly zone?

0:16:52 > 0:16:54I am listening to what the Syrians are

0:16:54 > 0:16:56saying - you're not.

0:16:56 > 0:16:58Who appointed you to speak on the half of the

0:16:58 > 0:17:00Syrians?

0:17:00 > 0:17:01He's not, he's channelling the response.

0:17:01 > 0:17:03Channelling them?

0:17:03 > 0:17:05I'm merely repeating what they've been

0:17:05 > 0:17:09saying all these years, and they've been ignored by everyone.

0:17:09 > 0:17:11You say there has to be Western powers.

0:17:11 > 0:17:12No, there are other...

0:17:12 > 0:17:13Saudi Arabia, maybe...

0:17:13 > 0:17:14The people who are intervening in Yemen.

0:17:14 > 0:17:17There are Brazil and India who could perhaps

0:17:17 > 0:17:18provide...

0:17:18 > 0:17:22Wait a minute, I will come to you.

0:17:22 > 0:17:24I will come to you in just a second.

0:17:24 > 0:17:26I want to come to Yasmin.

0:17:26 > 0:17:29And also, dear audience, I am going to go around and see what

0:17:29 > 0:17:31you've got to say about this, and fascinating points have been

0:17:31 > 0:17:32brought up thus far.

0:17:32 > 0:17:34Philip mentioned Saudi Arabia.

0:17:34 > 0:17:36Yasmin, we have a situation, and this comes back to the double

0:17:36 > 0:17:37standards.

0:17:37 > 0:17:40The only thing that seems to be consistent are the

0:17:40 > 0:17:41inconsistencies.

0:17:41 > 0:17:43There we are, we are selling weapons, or weapons

0:17:43 > 0:17:46parts or whatever, to Saudi Arabia, and we're providing aid to Yemen.

0:17:46 > 0:17:49So, we're providing aid to the people who are being harmed and

0:17:49 > 0:17:52killed and maimed by the weapons that we are selling the Saudi

0:17:52 > 0:17:54Arabia.

0:17:54 > 0:17:57I think that's absolutely right.

0:17:57 > 0:17:58I think that there is an inherent...

0:17:58 > 0:17:59What?

0:17:59 > 0:18:00Come on...

0:18:00 > 0:18:01An inherent hypocrisy.

0:18:01 > 0:18:03It's madness.

0:18:03 > 0:18:05It's certainly something I think when we talk about military

0:18:05 > 0:18:09intervention, it's something that we need to interrogate.

0:18:09 > 0:18:11I don't think there are any easy answers here, and

0:18:11 > 0:18:13you can see obviously from the panel, people who are speaking,

0:18:13 > 0:18:16there are many different views, and all of them

0:18:16 > 0:18:17are somewhat legitimate.

0:18:17 > 0:18:19But I think what we do need is to interrogate

0:18:19 > 0:18:20when our goverments and

0:18:20 > 0:18:22those in power are saying that they want to use

0:18:22 > 0:18:24military intervention to

0:18:24 > 0:18:28help and to alleviate humanitarian catastrophes

0:18:28 > 0:18:32and suffering, when in

0:18:32 > 0:18:34the very same breath those very same people

0:18:34 > 0:18:35are allowing exports, as you

0:18:35 > 0:18:37said, military exports, to Saudi Arabia which are being

0:18:37 > 0:18:38used to kill civilians.

0:18:38 > 0:18:43And then on the other hand, they are then saying, we're

0:18:43 > 0:18:45providing aid, and yet the money that's being spent on military

0:18:45 > 0:18:48assistance is about ten times more than the aid they are providing.

0:18:48 > 0:18:51So, there's an inherent contradiction,

0:18:51 > 0:18:54and I think it's a severe problem.

0:18:54 > 0:18:56As was rightly raised by my colleague here,

0:18:56 > 0:18:59the fact that Boris Johnson and other UK politicians

0:18:59 > 0:19:03have said, if the US asked us now, we would support them in using

0:19:03 > 0:19:08military force against Assad in Syria.

0:19:08 > 0:19:11Whatever the rights and wrongs of that are, we have over

0:19:11 > 0:19:143000 unaccompanied minors sitting in Greece at the moment whom we know

0:19:14 > 0:19:22have been subject to sexual abuse, and our politicians will not allow

0:19:22 > 0:19:24them into this country, despite Lord Dubbs passing

0:19:24 > 0:19:27an amendment requiring that to happen.

0:19:27 > 0:19:28They stopped that.

0:19:28 > 0:19:31Let's get Alan's response to that.

0:19:31 > 0:19:33It's an amazing response to the argument that's been made.

0:19:33 > 0:19:36First, I am in favour of more refugees coming

0:19:36 > 0:19:36here from Syria.

0:19:36 > 0:19:39However, the argument that Syrian citizens, if

0:19:39 > 0:19:44you manage to survive bombing, chemical weapons, murder, trying to

0:19:44 > 0:19:47get through camps etc, your reward will be a golden ticket to Britain -

0:19:47 > 0:19:50that's just not the way to handle a humanitarian crisis like this.

0:19:50 > 0:19:52It's ignoring the base of the problem,

0:19:52 > 0:19:52which is...

0:19:52 > 0:19:55So, more bombs is the way to handle it, then?

0:19:55 > 0:19:56Refugee status is supposed to be temporary

0:19:56 > 0:20:00in nature.

0:20:00 > 0:20:03We all know that for refugees to recreate their lives

0:20:03 > 0:20:05with the best capabilities, it is in the countries

0:20:05 > 0:20:08of their origin, being able to return as close as possible

0:20:08 > 0:20:09to that.

0:20:09 > 0:20:10Could I just respond?

0:20:10 > 0:20:11You can.

0:20:11 > 0:20:12Thank you!

0:20:12 > 0:20:14I understand what you're saying, that there has to be

0:20:14 > 0:20:17an approach which takes account of the multiplicity of factors.

0:20:17 > 0:20:17I absolutely understand.

0:20:17 > 0:20:20When we start arguing for humanitarian

0:20:20 > 0:20:21intervention, and I'm an international lawyer, particularly

0:20:21 > 0:20:24under international law, it means if we have an exception which doesn't

0:20:24 > 0:20:26currently exist under international law,

0:20:26 > 0:20:27so what we're talking about is

0:20:27 > 0:20:28something that does breach international law.

0:20:28 > 0:20:31And I know there are questions about legitimacy in

0:20:31 > 0:20:32law, and I understand that.

0:20:32 > 0:20:37But we have to understand that what we're

0:20:37 > 0:20:40doing then is we're moving the law and moving policy so that Russia can

0:20:40 > 0:20:43claim, when it wants to use force in Ukraine and Crimea, that it's

0:20:43 > 0:20:45potentially using force on the basis of humanitarian intervention.

0:20:45 > 0:20:54We have to be terribly careful here.

0:20:54 > 0:20:57If Egypt and Lebanon said that what's happening in Gaza is a

0:20:57 > 0:20:59humanitarian catastrophe and we want to bomb

0:20:59 > 0:21:00Tel Aviv and the capacity of

0:21:00 > 0:21:03Tel Aviv to continue that occupation and that catastrophic humanitarian

0:21:03 > 0:21:04suffering, then that is permissible, too.

0:21:04 > 0:21:07So, I think we just need to be really careful and essentially

0:21:07 > 0:21:08interrogate what we're saying.

0:21:08 > 0:21:10It's in the eye of the beholder.

0:21:10 > 0:21:17Essentially, it's permitting unilateral force.

0:21:17 > 0:21:20I agree with you, but the difference is, in some of the

0:21:20 > 0:21:22cases we have referenced, the UN has given its legitimacy.

0:21:22 > 0:21:24So, for example, Libya was a great example.

0:21:24 > 0:21:26Gaddafi said, I'm going to kill everyone, and the security

0:21:26 > 0:21:27council...

0:21:27 > 0:21:29But what happened as a result of that?

0:21:29 > 0:21:30A great example of what?

0:21:30 > 0:21:32But do you not think...

0:21:32 > 0:21:33OK, audience, everybody, wait a minute.

0:21:33 > 0:21:35Let's hear what the audience have to say.

0:21:35 > 0:21:36You had your hand up.

0:21:36 > 0:21:38It was this moment when you came out and

0:21:38 > 0:21:41you were saying that refugees coming out of these countries, they get

0:21:41 > 0:21:44through bombs and they get through refugee camps and they get

0:21:44 > 0:21:46rewarded with his golden ticket to Britain,

0:21:46 > 0:21:49and you were then like, no, the way to reincorporate this

0:21:49 > 0:21:52is to send them back where they came from, and I

0:21:52 > 0:21:54just think that's a really bizarre point to have made.

0:21:54 > 0:21:57It might not have been what you meant to say, but

0:21:57 > 0:21:59it's certainly how it came across, that actually, where these people

0:21:59 > 0:22:03deserve to be or ought to be is where they are from, and that

0:22:03 > 0:22:05immediately sends alarm bells going through these ideas

0:22:05 > 0:22:07about the fact that people ought to be divided by

0:22:07 > 0:22:11nation, and the fact that actually where you are meant to be is where

0:22:11 > 0:22:13you are born, and those ideas, and I just wanted

0:22:13 > 0:22:14to question you on that.

0:22:14 > 0:22:16I'm hoping that's not what you meant.

0:22:16 > 0:22:18No, is very simple: Those refugees have involuntarily had to

0:22:18 > 0:22:19flee their country.

0:22:19 > 0:22:27They actually want to live there.

0:22:27 > 0:22:27It's different to immigration.

0:22:27 > 0:22:28I think

0:22:28 > 0:22:30you're confusing immigration and refugee status.

0:22:30 > 0:22:33And I think you're drawing too hard of a line between

0:22:33 > 0:22:34those two things.

0:22:34 > 0:22:35That's not the case at all.

0:22:35 > 0:22:38That refugees only want to go back to where they're from,

0:22:38 > 0:22:41and it's also not the case that immigrants only want to live in a

0:22:41 > 0:22:42new place.

0:22:42 > 0:22:44Immigrants, by their nature, it's to do that.

0:22:44 > 0:22:46OK, let's get back to military intervention.

0:22:46 > 0:22:48Richard, I know you've been screaming and dying desperately to

0:22:48 > 0:22:50come in, and you've been putting a hand up,

0:22:50 > 0:22:52and now we will hear from

0:22:52 > 0:22:55you, from the Royal Africa Society, so you are right on this.

0:22:55 > 0:22:56What about Rwanda?

0:22:56 > 0:22:57take us back to Rwanda.

0:22:57 > 0:22:58The reason why Rwanda was ignored was

0:22:58 > 0:23:00because all the journalists were in South Africa

0:23:00 > 0:23:01for the first great election.

0:23:01 > 0:23:07It was going on at exactly the same time, and Rwanda was a

0:23:07 > 0:23:09Francophone country, a little country far

0:23:09 > 0:23:10away, about which we

0:23:10 > 0:23:12cared little, and the French were backing the government.

0:23:12 > 0:23:14So, you know, that's the reason we all missed

0:23:14 > 0:23:15it.

0:23:15 > 0:23:17And when the South African election didn't turn into the

0:23:17 > 0:23:20expected bloodbath, we all went, oh, what about that Rwanda place?

0:23:20 > 0:23:22And everybody piled into Rwanda, too late.

0:23:22 > 0:23:27I think that's one of the...

0:23:27 > 0:23:29And also, the Somali debacle for the Americans.

0:23:29 > 0:23:31Exactly.

0:23:31 > 0:23:33Which meant that the security council, the Americans,

0:23:33 > 0:23:34Clinton didn't want a UN presence.

0:23:34 > 0:23:35Take us to Somalia now.

0:23:35 > 0:23:37I was the Americans' first prisoner in

0:23:37 > 0:23:38Somalia.

0:23:38 > 0:23:40Which gives you an idea of how well-informed they were.

0:23:40 > 0:23:42I wish we had time for the whole story.

0:23:42 > 0:23:44I was flung on the ground at gunpoint,

0:23:44 > 0:23:46what the BLEEP are you doing?

0:23:46 > 0:23:48It's Sunday morning!

0:23:48 > 0:23:52OK.

0:23:52 > 0:24:00Can I just apologise for the language.

0:24:00 > 0:24:03So, you were their prisoner?

0:24:03 > 0:24:08Because they had no idea that there might be some

0:24:08 > 0:24:10journalists waiting for them to come ashore,

0:24:10 > 0:24:11even though they decided to

0:24:11 > 0:24:14come ashore in a ridiculous way, piling up the beaches, doing a sort

0:24:14 > 0:24:17of invasion for the TV cameras, but nobody had told them that there

0:24:17 > 0:24:19would be TV cameras waiting for them.

0:24:19 > 0:24:21And they didn't understand the minutest bit about this country?

0:24:21 > 0:24:23They hadn't the faintest idea where they had landed.

0:24:23 > 0:24:25And the Somalis just played them off and eventually

0:24:25 > 0:24:27the whole thing fell apart and they walked

0:24:27 > 0:24:29away from it, leaving it in a

0:24:29 > 0:24:30worse condition than when they started.

0:24:30 > 0:24:32And Rwanda paid the price.

0:24:32 > 0:24:35Rwanda paid the price for that, yes indeed.

0:24:35 > 0:24:38And because they were so frightened that that was what would

0:24:38 > 0:24:39happen there.

0:24:39 > 0:24:41But contrast that with Britain's intervention in Sierra

0:24:41 > 0:24:44Leone against the horrible Revolutionary United Front, which

0:24:44 > 0:24:48went around cutting...

0:24:48 > 0:24:51Tony Blair was pleased with that.

0:24:51 > 0:24:53Eventually, they went in and, yes, the military

0:24:53 > 0:24:57did sort it out and sorted out the RUF, and now we have a stable

0:24:57 > 0:25:04country.

0:25:04 > 0:25:07Of course, that gave him a bit of wind in his sails, didn't it?

0:25:07 > 0:25:08And Kosovo.

0:25:08 > 0:25:11He looked at Kosovo and Sierra Leone and he said, look at

0:25:11 > 0:25:12me, I'm a superhero.

0:25:12 > 0:25:14Yes, OK, but it is understanding the context into

0:25:14 > 0:25:17which you are going, and those examples, in Sierra Leone,

0:25:17 > 0:25:19which they knew well, they did OK, and in

0:25:19 > 0:25:21Somalia, the Americans hadn't a clue where they were landing.

0:25:21 > 0:25:23They just wanted another thing like the first

0:25:23 > 0:25:31Gulf War.

0:25:31 > 0:25:33I think those examples actually show how unreliable the

0:25:33 > 0:25:35whole system is, because it's something like what happened in

0:25:35 > 0:25:40Somalia, and the fact that there were big losses from very important

0:25:40 > 0:25:42soldiers from America, that can actually make that a couple

0:25:42 > 0:25:45of years later there is a no-show, that

0:25:45 > 0:25:48should actually, when we try to think about intervention on the one

0:25:48 > 0:25:50hand, military or not, and the whole question

0:25:50 > 0:25:53about solidarity, to be very clear, those two things often

0:25:53 > 0:25:56have nothing to do with each other.

0:25:56 > 0:26:01The way that we're doing it today.

0:26:01 > 0:26:04And we keep on forgetting that we are in a situation of being arsonist

0:26:04 > 0:26:05firefighters.

0:26:05 > 0:26:07We are one and the same.

0:26:07 > 0:26:10So, when we try to think about what should we do, we're not doing

0:26:10 > 0:26:13anything, it's not true, because usually we start the story

0:26:13 > 0:26:16somewhere in the middle.

0:26:16 > 0:26:18Even Syria, for instance, asking the questions of

0:26:18 > 0:26:19doing something.

0:26:19 > 0:26:21Let me move it on.

0:26:21 > 0:26:23Let me move into aid - 0.7% of GDP, all the money

0:26:23 > 0:26:25that we put across the

0:26:25 > 0:26:26world to help projects.

0:26:26 > 0:26:28I think we were talking about Iraq and

0:26:28 > 0:26:30Afghanistan and I want to talk to you, Dorcas,

0:26:30 > 0:26:31about Afghanistan, because some

0:26:31 > 0:26:33people say, what were the motives of the war

0:26:33 > 0:26:34or the military action in

0:26:34 > 0:26:35Afghanistan?

0:26:35 > 0:26:37And some people do say, look, we were bringing

0:26:37 > 0:26:40humanitarianism and trying to get rid of a ghastly, despicable, thug

0:26:40 > 0:26:41Islamist regime.

0:26:41 > 0:26:42We built schools, didn't we?

0:26:42 > 0:26:43Yes, we did.

0:26:43 > 0:26:49Some of them got bombed.

0:26:49 > 0:26:52Are you still proud of the fact that we built schools for

0:26:52 > 0:26:53girls?

0:26:53 > 0:26:57I'm proud that we did build schools for girls.

0:26:57 > 0:26:59I'm not proud of the way we executed how we built

0:26:59 > 0:27:02schools for girls, so I don't necessarily disagree with what

0:27:02 > 0:27:04people are surfacing.

0:27:04 > 0:27:07What people are surfacing is a system that needs

0:27:07 > 0:27:10reform.

0:27:10 > 0:27:14As aid workers here, we don't deny that that's the case, but

0:27:14 > 0:27:16I sit on another side.

0:27:16 > 0:27:18I can't look at necessarily the mass of

0:27:18 > 0:27:21international law, I can't necessarily sit in an academic

0:27:21 > 0:27:22situation and look at trends.

0:27:22 > 0:27:25I can only look at the people in front of

0:27:25 > 0:27:28me, and in Afghanistan, those girls needed those schools.

0:27:28 > 0:27:29They had nowhere to go.

0:27:29 > 0:27:31Could we have done better?

0:27:31 > 0:27:35Yes, we could have done better.

0:27:35 > 0:27:38There were lots of other models of how we could have built

0:27:38 > 0:27:42those schools that wouldn't have led to that outcome, but are we really

0:27:42 > 0:27:45saying, I want to be clear, that because there are problems in the

0:27:45 > 0:27:47way that aid is delivered, there are problems

0:27:47 > 0:27:48around intervention, that

0:27:48 > 0:27:50we're just going to stop?

0:27:50 > 0:27:52We're just going to stand by and let people

0:27:52 > 0:27:54die?

0:27:54 > 0:27:56Let girls not have access to school?

0:27:56 > 0:27:58Let girls like Malala not go to school?

0:27:58 > 0:28:00I don't think that's what we're saying.

0:28:00 > 0:28:02So, just because something is broken, doesn't mean

0:28:02 > 0:28:05that we don't have a responsibility to fix it.

0:28:05 > 0:28:07As an aid worker, that's what I want to see.

0:28:07 > 0:28:09That's the conversation.

0:28:09 > 0:28:14I think these are really important things to surface.

0:28:14 > 0:28:18Is there a question, though, and obviously we didn't go into

0:28:18 > 0:28:20Afghanistan on the basis of humanitarian intervention.

0:28:20 > 0:28:23It became a big part of it, though, didn't it?

0:28:23 > 0:28:26Yeah, there was constantly conflicting justifications of why we

0:28:26 > 0:28:29were there, which is part of the problem, really,

0:28:29 > 0:28:36not even knowing what we were doing.

0:28:36 > 0:28:38There's certainly an argument to say that, by being

0:28:38 > 0:28:41involved in Afghanistan, we have made the situation a lot worse for

0:28:41 > 0:28:42women by doing that, creating instability.

0:28:42 > 0:28:43I don't know.

0:28:43 > 0:28:45I mean, I've worked in Afghanistan, worked

0:28:45 > 0:28:52with really strong women's rights organisations from Afghanistan.

0:28:52 > 0:28:55British aid and other forms of donor money has helped them create safe

0:28:55 > 0:28:57spaces for women that wouldn't otherwise be there.

0:28:57 > 0:29:00I've worked with community paralegals.

0:29:00 > 0:29:03When no one is listening, no one is teaching

0:29:03 > 0:29:05contrarian academic thesis in universities

0:29:05 > 0:29:08about the efficiency of

0:29:08 > 0:29:13international aid, who have lost their families,

0:29:13 > 0:29:17who fight every day, and I stand in solidarity with them.

0:29:17 > 0:29:22I've been in situations where other aid workers have lost their lives.

0:29:22 > 0:29:25I've lost three Afghan women aid workers, and I just challenge anyone

0:29:25 > 0:29:32to say that it wasn't worth us going there to support them.

0:29:32 > 0:29:38Is there a danger - and we heard that about girls in schools...

0:29:38 > 0:29:39You hear this from some people.

0:29:39 > 0:29:42I'm not endorsing this view, but is there a danger

0:29:42 > 0:29:45that we are imposing our liberal values on parts of the world

0:29:45 > 0:29:50which might not welcome them?

0:29:50 > 0:29:53I think you've got to be very, very well-educated about the context

0:29:53 > 0:29:56in which you're going in, but I haven't been to a country

0:29:56 > 0:30:00where people have said, or the women have said,

0:30:00 > 0:30:02"We don't want to be educated."

0:30:02 > 0:30:06Health and education are the most important things.

0:30:06 > 0:30:08FGM as well...

0:30:08 > 0:30:11That's disputed.

0:30:11 > 0:30:13Tell me more about that.

0:30:13 > 0:30:17Well, some people think that it is...

0:30:17 > 0:30:19I'm talking about Somalia particularly, but there,

0:30:19 > 0:30:21men have absolutely nothing to do with it.

0:30:21 > 0:30:24It's the old women who do it, and I think there's a generation

0:30:24 > 0:30:28coming through now which will push it out, but slowly.

0:30:28 > 0:30:30Should we not be helping push it out?

0:30:30 > 0:30:33Should we not be saying, "This is barbaric, this

0:30:33 > 0:30:34is wrong, this is savage."

0:30:34 > 0:30:36Should we not be saying that?

0:30:36 > 0:30:40No, because I think people would then become more defensive

0:30:40 > 0:30:44in solidarity with their traditions, if outsiders are telling

0:30:44 > 0:30:47them what to do.

0:30:47 > 0:30:52You do know that FGM movement was started

0:30:52 > 0:30:55by African women midwives?

0:30:55 > 0:30:58So maybe there is much more now, because lots more people

0:30:58 > 0:31:01have become involved, it's something that the British

0:31:01 > 0:31:03government is championing.

0:31:03 > 0:31:07But for years, African women midwives were pushing for action

0:31:07 > 0:31:13on FGM, so to reduce it to a form of cultural relativism is, in fact,

0:31:13 > 0:31:17it spits in the face of those women.

0:31:17 > 0:31:18This is exactly the point.

0:31:18 > 0:31:20It's the same issue.

0:31:20 > 0:31:23We shouldn't be looking at aid in terms of what we think is best,

0:31:23 > 0:31:26but listen to the people in those countries, what they want.

0:31:26 > 0:31:30We should support those women and gay people

0:31:30 > 0:31:33and others in those countries who themselves want change.

0:31:33 > 0:31:35Who themselves want change.

0:31:35 > 0:31:38What about the LGBT issues in countries which are just not

0:31:38 > 0:31:41welcoming of those values?

0:31:41 > 0:31:44Countries which have the death penalty for being gay.

0:31:44 > 0:31:46What do we do about that?

0:31:46 > 0:31:49How do we approach those countries without those countries feeling

0:31:49 > 0:31:53that we are imposing our values on them?

0:31:53 > 0:31:57All the work that I've been doing, that others have been doing,

0:31:57 > 0:32:00has been to support not just LGBT organisations in Uganda,

0:32:00 > 0:32:04but the whole coalition of civil society organisations in Uganda,

0:32:04 > 0:32:07which also support LGBT rights.

0:32:07 > 0:32:10The idea that all Ugandans are homophobic is fundamentally wrong.

0:32:10 > 0:32:16There's a huge amount of support, both for LGBT people

0:32:16 > 0:32:18and against LGBT people, and our actions are very much

0:32:18 > 0:32:22to support those Ugandans who themselves want equality

0:32:22 > 0:32:23and human rights for their fellow...

0:32:23 > 0:32:24Richard.

0:32:24 > 0:32:28But it's really interesting, then, that the churches

0:32:28 > 0:32:30who are at the forefront of progressive development

0:32:30 > 0:32:32and education and so on, actually on that issue,

0:32:32 > 0:32:34are on the other side, so staying quiet.

0:32:34 > 0:32:37I think that's a great loss.

0:32:37 > 0:32:38What do we do?

0:32:38 > 0:32:42Do we have to tread carefully on that issue, or do we say, "Look,

0:32:42 > 0:32:45it's the 21st-century, for god's sake"?

0:32:45 > 0:32:48I think a quieter dialogue within those churches,

0:32:48 > 0:32:50but it's extraordinary that so many...

0:32:50 > 0:32:51Sorry, who said that?

0:32:51 > 0:32:53Somebody in the audience said...

0:32:53 > 0:33:02There are so many ways to deal with any situation, not just one.

0:33:03 > 0:33:07So it doesn't mean to go there and say you've got to do

0:33:07 > 0:33:10it because we say so.

0:33:10 > 0:33:13Your traditions perhaps are different than mine.

0:33:13 > 0:33:17Why should I obey your orders and not solve my own problems by myself?

0:33:17 > 0:33:21And maybe, advice from people who knows about these things.

0:33:21 > 0:33:25Surely you have a right to say to people, "You should not be

0:33:25 > 0:33:27putting people to death?"

0:33:27 > 0:33:29And you have no right to go everywhere bombing

0:33:29 > 0:33:32people and killing them.

0:33:32 > 0:33:36What they can do if they are so concerned to convince them,

0:33:36 > 0:33:39those people who can understand them better, and then provide them

0:33:39 > 0:33:44with the help to build their lives in their own countries

0:33:44 > 0:33:49instead of leaving their families, leaving their businesses,

0:33:49 > 0:33:53their professions etc, everything.

0:33:53 > 0:33:55The key thing is...

0:33:55 > 0:33:56And that is allowed everywhere they come.

0:33:56 > 0:33:58They don't want to go.

0:33:58 > 0:33:59OK.

0:33:59 > 0:34:01I'll come to you in a second.

0:34:01 > 0:34:02Put your hand up.

0:34:02 > 0:34:05The key thing is to give a voice to and empower people within those

0:34:05 > 0:34:08countries who are striving for human rights and equality.

0:34:08 > 0:34:11What if there is deep-seated cultural opposition to those values?

0:34:11 > 0:34:13That is Richard's point.

0:34:13 > 0:34:18I don't think it's helpful to separate all these different

0:34:18 > 0:34:22rights, whether it's LGBT in Uganda or FGM in this country

0:34:22 > 0:34:27or that country.

0:34:27 > 0:34:28The world doesn't operate that way.

0:34:28 > 0:34:32If you are seriously interested in promoting human rights

0:34:32 > 0:34:34and equality around the world, it requires sustained,

0:34:34 > 0:34:37long-term development assistance and investment across the scope,

0:34:37 > 0:34:41and let each society make its progress in its own way.

0:34:41 > 0:34:44That's not great if you're being thrown off a roof for being gay.

0:34:44 > 0:34:46We have to have solidarity.

0:34:46 > 0:34:48Sure, but if you look at the situation...

0:34:48 > 0:34:50And culture is not static.

0:34:50 > 0:34:55I really remember this when I was growing up in Ghana,

0:34:55 > 0:34:59and one part of my Conservative Party was pushing for me

0:34:59 > 0:35:02to be a certain way, because that's what we had always been,

0:35:02 > 0:35:05and I remember my grandma saying, "Who are you talking about?

0:35:05 > 0:35:06"What culture?

0:35:06 > 0:35:08"Because I don't remember that being my culture."

0:35:08 > 0:35:11You have to understand that, in these societies as well, there

0:35:11 > 0:35:13are lots of internal dynamics going.

0:35:13 > 0:35:16People who have a certain stake in promoting a certain identity,

0:35:16 > 0:35:19so to therefore say that these people have cultures,

0:35:19 > 0:35:21you are denying the complexity, that's what's happening in these

0:35:21 > 0:35:29countries, and who is benefiting from a certain cultural

0:35:29 > 0:35:31identity or another?

0:35:31 > 0:35:32Very often, patriarchal...

0:35:32 > 0:35:35Wouldn't you agree that there is an age, a huge age difference?

0:35:35 > 0:35:36The grandmothers would still be...

0:35:36 > 0:35:39My grandmother was...

0:35:39 > 0:35:42The example she was using was, I was wearing a skirt

0:35:42 > 0:35:47that was seen as too short, and the person who was

0:35:47 > 0:35:49telling me off was like, that's not our culture,

0:35:49 > 0:35:50we wear a longer skirt.

0:35:50 > 0:35:54And she was like, "Didn't we copy that from the Victorians?"

0:35:54 > 0:35:58Culture is not static.

0:35:58 > 0:36:00People have invested views.

0:36:00 > 0:36:02One second.

0:36:02 > 0:36:04There were a couple more comments.

0:36:04 > 0:36:06Yes, what would you like to say?

0:36:06 > 0:36:09Talking about getting people to find the solutions in their own culture.

0:36:09 > 0:36:16I help with a project that provides washable,

0:36:16 > 0:36:20reusable feminine hygiene kits for girls who can't go

0:36:20 > 0:36:23to school because they don't have the wherewithal.

0:36:23 > 0:36:28In the far reaches of western Pakistan, near the Afghan border,

0:36:28 > 0:36:32we've linked up with a project who are using this as a good idea

0:36:32 > 0:36:37to help to empower women, and one story that one

0:36:37 > 0:36:41of the workers there told me is that in her school,

0:36:41 > 0:36:46she had to start it, we had a group of Taliban approaching,

0:36:46 > 0:36:52so she sent all the girls home, but the teachers remained.

0:36:52 > 0:36:56And when the Taliban came, she said, "Sit down, I'm going to tell

0:36:56 > 0:36:57you what we do here.

0:36:57 > 0:36:59"These are not fancy western ideas.

0:36:59 > 0:37:05"We are teaching your girls to be good wives and mothers.

0:37:05 > 0:37:08"If they can't read and write and count, they'll be "cheated

0:37:08 > 0:37:12in the marketplace."

0:37:12 > 0:37:18Now the economical thing solves everything with men.

0:37:18 > 0:37:20This conversation seems to me to be conducted

0:37:20 > 0:37:23on an entirely false premise, because actually lots of the things

0:37:23 > 0:37:26we are talking about have actually been signed up to by the governments

0:37:26 > 0:37:29of the countries we are talking about, not just the rules

0:37:29 > 0:37:31on how you conduct wars, not just that you can't

0:37:31 > 0:37:32use chemical weapons.

0:37:32 > 0:37:35How many countries in the world have the death

0:37:35 > 0:37:35penalty for being LGBT?

0:37:35 > 0:37:36About eight.

0:37:36 > 0:37:37About eight?

0:37:37 > 0:37:41But some of the things we've been talking about in terms of aid

0:37:41 > 0:37:43and the imposition of so-called cultural values, every country

0:37:43 > 0:37:46in the world just signed up to the Global Goals in 2015,

0:37:46 > 0:37:48which said, let's not have 16,000 children dying every day

0:37:48 > 0:37:51from diseases we know how to cure, let's have every girl in school.

0:37:51 > 0:37:53These are not impositions on to government.

0:37:53 > 0:37:56These are us helping citizens in these countries

0:37:56 > 0:37:58to hold their own governments to account for things they've

0:37:58 > 0:37:59already promised to do.

0:37:59 > 0:38:00I've got my eyes on...

0:38:00 > 0:38:01Peter liked that!

0:38:01 > 0:38:04I've got my eyes on the audience, but, Olivia, this is something

0:38:04 > 0:38:05that has occurred to me.

0:38:05 > 0:38:11Quite interesting from what we are saying about the so-called cultural

0:38:11 > 0:38:16values, the imposition thereof, the difficulties,

0:38:16 > 0:38:17going steadily and stealthily.

0:38:17 > 0:38:22Is there a touch of colonialism about some of this?

0:38:22 > 0:38:24Hmm.

0:38:24 > 0:38:28So, I do think - and there I do agree.

0:38:28 > 0:38:30There are different levels in which we have

0:38:30 > 0:38:31to have these debates.

0:38:31 > 0:38:34I guess my biggest problem with a lot of the aid debate

0:38:34 > 0:38:37is that we think that, let's say, as academics,

0:38:37 > 0:38:39or me teaching about this, or me being a politician,

0:38:39 > 0:38:42or me working for a certain organisation, that we would all

0:38:42 > 0:38:45somehow have to look at it in the same way.

0:38:45 > 0:38:48And so when I'm hearing about, for instance, LGBT rights

0:38:48 > 0:38:55in a place like Uganda, there need to be people like us,

0:38:55 > 0:38:58but not because it's necessarily so superior,

0:38:58 > 0:39:03but we need to sit down and start the story somewhere else.

0:39:03 > 0:39:07A lot of the legislation against it...

0:39:07 > 0:39:10We instigated.

0:39:10 > 0:39:11Yeah.

0:39:11 > 0:39:15And I'm not saying to do the blame game and say, once we came

0:39:15 > 0:39:18there with our Christian values, we started oppressing people,

0:39:18 > 0:39:19and now we see the situation.

0:39:19 > 0:39:23It's just to say that we need to take a step back and not have

0:39:23 > 0:39:27this fantasy that we are just neutral people in solidarity with.

0:39:27 > 0:39:28We're not.

0:39:28 > 0:39:31What about our attitude to aid and Africa?

0:39:31 > 0:39:36Is it still imbued with a sense of colonialism?

0:39:36 > 0:39:39Yeah.

0:39:39 > 0:39:42We probably have to define what we mean by it,

0:39:42 > 0:39:45but I would say that it's really important to think...

0:39:45 > 0:39:46Paternalism?

0:39:46 > 0:39:48No, how come we are in a position where we feel

0:39:48 > 0:39:52we need to save someone?

0:39:52 > 0:39:55Again, if we look at the refugee crisis, we just start at the moment

0:39:55 > 0:39:57that they knock on Fortress Europe, and we say,

0:39:57 > 0:40:03should we be generous or not?

0:40:03 > 0:40:09It's a false debate, because it seems as if we never had

0:40:09 > 0:40:12anything to do with anything that happened before.

0:40:12 > 0:40:20For a lot of the situation, whether it's women's rights

0:40:20 > 0:40:25in Afghanistan, where we can focus on,

0:40:25 > 0:40:28I do agree, once we work for ActionAid or what ever,

0:40:28 > 0:40:30you have different questions on a day-to-day basis,

0:40:30 > 0:40:32where you don't have to come with your whole cultural,

0:40:32 > 0:40:34relativist questions, but if, at the same time,

0:40:34 > 0:40:37none of our politicians or even us in the classroom make the link

0:40:37 > 0:40:40between the total destruction of the Afghan Society for a long

0:40:40 > 0:40:42time for a lot of reasons and the horrible situation

0:40:42 > 0:40:44in which many people live in these places,

0:40:44 > 0:40:45it's a false debate.

0:40:45 > 0:40:48It just shows that we do not really care as a society.

0:40:48 > 0:40:50We are not necessarily disagreeing, but we are

0:40:50 > 0:40:51disagreeing on some levels.

0:40:51 > 0:40:53I think what we challenge as practitioners and aid workers

0:40:53 > 0:40:56on the ground is this simplistic academic view of it.

0:40:56 > 0:40:59When I say that, I hear a lot about aid being about colonialism,

0:40:59 > 0:41:00about the saviour complex, and these things,

0:41:00 > 0:41:02we've listened to the academics.

0:41:02 > 0:41:04ActionAid is an organisation whose headquarters is in South Africa.

0:41:04 > 0:41:06We are a federation.

0:41:06 > 0:41:09Mostly in ActionAid, you can't really work

0:41:09 > 0:41:12in an ActionAid country as a country director if you are not

0:41:12 > 0:41:13from the country or region.

0:41:13 > 0:41:16Most of the money we've raised goes to local partners,

0:41:16 > 0:41:19and I would love to say that we are the only

0:41:19 > 0:41:25one who does it.

0:41:25 > 0:41:27We were the first who came out, and others have followed,

0:41:27 > 0:41:29but we still have a long way to go.

0:41:29 > 0:41:33But it isn't the case that we are not listening to the complexity.

0:41:33 > 0:41:35Let's go to the lady in the audience.

0:41:35 > 0:41:37You've had your hand up for while, and I wanted to see

0:41:37 > 0:41:39what you've got to say.

0:41:39 > 0:41:42I have been to Africa many times, and, while there, I had noticed

0:41:42 > 0:41:45the great amount of total wastage on behalf of the aid agencies

0:41:45 > 0:41:48and their projects.

0:41:48 > 0:41:53I realised that, rather than helping, they helped

0:41:53 > 0:41:59to foster and encourage a culture of dependency.

0:41:59 > 0:42:04Therefore, instead, we need to establish a solid

0:42:04 > 0:42:13trade and industry links.

0:42:13 > 0:42:16For example, instead of sending mosquito nets abroad, you know,

0:42:16 > 0:42:19we should be helping to build factories so as to manufacture

0:42:19 > 0:42:21these mosquito nets.

0:42:21 > 0:42:23I want to move to that.

0:42:23 > 0:42:24That's an excellent point.

0:42:24 > 0:42:27I want to get there.

0:42:27 > 0:42:30But you just mentioned the dependency point.

0:42:30 > 0:42:33That was a really good place to raise it,

0:42:33 > 0:42:36because I want to bring in you, Neil, from Cafod,

0:42:36 > 0:42:37a Catholic aid agency.

0:42:37 > 0:42:39You work out there.

0:42:39 > 0:42:43Does that resonate with you, this sort of neocolonialism,

0:42:43 > 0:42:47we are helping you yet again, and it's sort of self-perpetuating?

0:42:47 > 0:42:49Do you recognise that?

0:42:49 > 0:42:52I think, from our perspective, we would say that we always work

0:42:52 > 0:42:56through local organisations, because we know that they know

0:42:56 > 0:42:59best, and they are most effective in doing it.

0:42:59 > 0:43:00So, I think...

0:43:00 > 0:43:03So if they said, give us condoms, what would you do?

0:43:03 > 0:43:07If they know best?

0:43:07 > 0:43:09We largely work with Catholic agencies, so there's not

0:43:09 > 0:43:11a great chance of that!

0:43:11 > 0:43:14Fair enough.

0:43:14 > 0:43:16It's nice to come back to that topic.

0:43:16 > 0:43:19But I think the important thing is, actually, if you talk

0:43:19 > 0:43:21about humanitarian interventions, and you talk about that

0:43:21 > 0:43:24kind of large-scale, what often gets missed out

0:43:24 > 0:43:27is the local organisations who were there before

0:43:27 > 0:43:29the crisis happened, during the crisis

0:43:29 > 0:43:33and after the crisis - those are the organisations

0:43:33 > 0:43:36who often struggle to get funding, to be right at the heart

0:43:36 > 0:43:40of the planning of that kind of intervention.

0:43:40 > 0:43:42Our example is Caritas Lebanon.

0:43:42 > 0:43:45They were there before most of the big UN international agencies

0:43:45 > 0:43:47came, all of the Syrian refugees coming in.

0:43:47 > 0:43:50They find it really difficult a) to be in those kind

0:43:50 > 0:43:53of planning meetings, and then b) what we find is the big

0:43:53 > 0:43:55agencies all want to steal the staff, because they're

0:43:55 > 0:43:57so good, and they're offering them inflated salaries.

0:43:57 > 0:44:00That's why, for us, it's all about shifting this localisation

0:44:00 > 0:44:04agenda to make sure that you support the local organisations

0:44:04 > 0:44:06as much as you can.

0:44:06 > 0:44:07But why aren't you doing it?

0:44:07 > 0:44:12Less than 0.5% of all international humanitarian aid flows

0:44:12 > 0:44:13through local organisations.

0:44:13 > 0:44:14Absolutely.

0:44:14 > 0:44:15And including good organisations like Cafod.

0:44:15 > 0:44:18Why do you not open the doors and allow your local partners

0:44:18 > 0:44:21to directly access international funding, rather than go

0:44:21 > 0:44:22through the hegemony of international organisations

0:44:22 > 0:44:25like Oxfam and Save the Children with their huge international

0:44:25 > 0:44:30headquarters and billion-dollar businesses?

0:44:30 > 0:44:32I don't think international organisations like yours are serious

0:44:32 > 0:44:34in terms of localisation.

0:44:34 > 0:44:36Two things.

0:44:36 > 0:44:40We have a charter for change, which signs us up to do exactly that,

0:44:40 > 0:44:43so we shift the resources that we've got into the south.

0:44:43 > 0:44:44That's the first thing.

0:44:44 > 0:44:46But when will that happen?

0:44:46 > 0:44:47Let him answer.

0:44:47 > 0:44:50The second point is that we are already doing it.

0:44:50 > 0:44:52We are already supporting our partners directly to access those

0:44:52 > 0:44:54kinds of international funds so they don't have

0:44:54 > 0:44:55to come through us.

0:44:55 > 0:44:57OK, OK.

0:44:57 > 0:44:58Comic Relief, right?

0:44:58 > 0:45:00What do you think, Richard?

0:45:00 > 0:45:02Good thing?

0:45:02 > 0:45:06I think the image they portray in those films is toe-curlingly

0:45:06 > 0:45:11embarrassing, and denigrates Africa.

0:45:11 > 0:45:16And I think every aid agency should by law have a strapline saying,

0:45:16 > 0:45:19"Working for our own abolition."

0:45:19 > 0:45:21They shouldn't be necessary.

0:45:21 > 0:45:22What's wrong with Comic Relief?

0:45:22 > 0:45:23How many did they raise?

0:45:23 > 0:45:2470...

0:45:24 > 0:45:2573 million?

0:45:25 > 0:45:26OK, the money.

0:45:26 > 0:45:28I don't know how they use it.

0:45:28 > 0:45:31What's wrong with the images?

0:45:31 > 0:45:36I just think the images always shown leaves that residue in the mind that

0:45:36 > 0:45:39Africa cannot do it itself, they need us to do it for them.

0:45:39 > 0:45:41So Ed Sheeran with a bunch of schoolkids...

0:45:41 > 0:45:43It's patronising.

0:45:43 > 0:45:46Is it?

0:45:46 > 0:45:48As you say, it's Comic Relief, and the name says it all.

0:45:48 > 0:45:51Nobody likes to be looked upon as objects of pity,

0:45:51 > 0:45:55and worst of all, of this funny, humorous,

0:45:55 > 0:45:58very British style of humour.

0:45:58 > 0:46:00Patronising.

0:46:00 > 0:46:01Who thinks it's patronising?

0:46:01 > 0:46:02Kirsty.

0:46:02 > 0:46:04If viewers remember nothing else, I hope it's this.

0:46:04 > 0:46:07Since 1990, we've halved the number of children dying

0:46:07 > 0:46:09before their fifth birthday.

0:46:09 > 0:46:11There is a tremendous story to be told about the success

0:46:11 > 0:46:12of aid and development.

0:46:12 > 0:46:15However, the flip side is, we are still losing 16,000 children

0:46:15 > 0:46:18a day from hunger in a world of plenty, so what Comic Relief does

0:46:18 > 0:46:20is show the things that have yet to be done,

0:46:20 > 0:46:22and the idea...

0:46:22 > 0:46:25I think viewers would be absolutely bewildered that those of them

0:46:25 > 0:46:28who gave in their millions to try and help people, to try and give

0:46:28 > 0:46:31the aid that immunises a child every two minutes,

0:46:31 > 0:46:36that immunises a child and saves their lives every two minutes,

0:46:36 > 0:46:39I think viewers would be bewildered to receive this ticking off,

0:46:39 > 0:46:42as if they'd done something wrong rather than showing the absolute

0:46:42 > 0:46:45best of humanity, that's willing to be compassionate.

0:46:45 > 0:46:49International aid is less than 5% of all the flows

0:46:49 > 0:46:53that go into a country, so I don't know why...

0:46:53 > 0:46:59Comic Relief is really interesting, though, because the window

0:46:59 > 0:47:01through which a lot of people see Africa.

0:47:01 > 0:47:02Philip, what do you think of Comic Relief?

0:47:02 > 0:47:05It's not funny, for starters, but beyond that, I think

0:47:05 > 0:47:06it is an extremely patronising view.

0:47:06 > 0:47:09The point is, the thing that really helps in these countries,

0:47:09 > 0:47:11as a member of the audience said, is economic growth.

0:47:11 > 0:47:13Modernisation and transformation.

0:47:13 > 0:47:16The idea that these dramatic changes in terms of bringing down infant

0:47:16 > 0:47:20mortality is going to happen through dispatch of charity

0:47:20 > 0:47:22is just misguided.

0:47:22 > 0:47:23The only thing that is going to...

0:47:23 > 0:47:28It's one of the reasons it has happened.

0:47:28 > 0:47:29It's already happened.

0:47:29 > 0:47:31Is going to transform these countries is economic growth.

0:47:31 > 0:47:32It has already happened.

0:47:32 > 0:47:35Aid put a large part of that driving down of child mortality.

0:47:35 > 0:47:37The argument for that is very, very dodgy.

0:47:37 > 0:47:40You are saying that Comic Relief has brought down a reduction in child

0:47:40 > 0:47:43mortality across the world?

0:47:43 > 0:47:44I'm saying that aid...

0:47:44 > 0:47:45I would debate that.

0:47:45 > 0:47:47Surely it has raised the issue in the minds

0:47:47 > 0:47:49of the public, hasn't it?

0:47:49 > 0:47:53I'm not going to read page 12 of the Guardian.

0:47:53 > 0:47:57Page 12, page two, whatever.

0:47:57 > 0:47:59It isn't bringing down child mortality in Ethiopia or whatever.

0:47:59 > 0:48:03It is the actions of Ethiopians themselves.

0:48:03 > 0:48:07No one is saying aid has done it all, but if I may take this point

0:48:07 > 0:48:08about colonialism head on.

0:48:08 > 0:48:10My organisation, Save the Children, started 100 years ago,

0:48:10 > 0:48:12giving aid inside Europe.

0:48:12 > 0:48:15There are people alive today in the UK who were recipients

0:48:15 > 0:48:18of care packages from our colleagues in the United States

0:48:18 > 0:48:19after World War II.

0:48:19 > 0:48:20Was that patronising?

0:48:20 > 0:48:21Did that denigrate or humiliate us?

0:48:21 > 0:48:24Was that colonialism?

0:48:24 > 0:48:25No.

0:48:25 > 0:48:28That was compassion in action, and it so happened it

0:48:28 > 0:48:29happened inside Europe then, and now...

0:48:29 > 0:48:30Wait, wait.

0:48:30 > 0:48:32Hang on, Peter.

0:48:32 > 0:48:34Dorcas, Comic Relief, I would be fascinated

0:48:34 > 0:48:36in your view with it, because it's taken an interesting

0:48:36 > 0:48:38turn, this debate.

0:48:38 > 0:48:41Quite a lot of people watching at home will be taken aback,

0:48:41 > 0:48:45perhaps, by the hostility towards Comic Relief and other

0:48:45 > 0:48:47telethons like that.

0:48:47 > 0:48:48What is your view of it?

0:48:48 > 0:48:49Is it patronising?

0:48:49 > 0:48:54My view of it is complex.

0:48:54 > 0:48:58On the first hand, I really think that a lot of funds that have come

0:48:58 > 0:49:01through Comic Relief through ActionAid for women's rights

0:49:01 > 0:49:02have been phenomenal.

0:49:02 > 0:49:04They have helped us do so much.

0:49:04 > 0:49:07I wouldn't sit here and criticise Comic Relief for that,

0:49:07 > 0:49:12because I don't think that any other fund, when we were working on these

0:49:12 > 0:49:14issues before it became fashionable, stuck with us for that

0:49:14 > 0:49:16length of time.

0:49:16 > 0:49:19Now, there is another issue which is beyond Comic Relief,

0:49:19 > 0:49:23which we all have taken on as the sector, which is about how

0:49:23 > 0:49:25we market, how we have that conversation with people who don't

0:49:25 > 0:49:29know about Africa.

0:49:29 > 0:49:31They go to Africa and they call Africa a country, for example.

0:49:31 > 0:49:32No offence.

0:49:32 > 0:49:39That's a long journey.

0:49:39 > 0:49:41That's the journey from taking someone who's never had anything

0:49:41 > 0:49:44to do with someone like me, and then making them

0:49:44 > 0:49:45understand the complexity.

0:49:45 > 0:49:46Comic Relief tries to do that.

0:49:46 > 0:49:49Maybe it doesn't do it well, to everyone's pleasing,

0:49:49 > 0:49:51but maybe we don't do it so well as a sector.

0:49:51 > 0:49:53We are alive to that debate.

0:49:53 > 0:49:56We sit and we constantly talk about how we market the residue

0:49:56 > 0:49:59of images that we leave behind.

0:49:59 > 0:50:02And we always have to make that choice in terms of the long-term,

0:50:02 > 0:50:04about really showing.

0:50:04 > 0:50:06For us in ActionAid, it's about authenticity.

0:50:06 > 0:50:09So, yes, it's not great to have an image of Africa

0:50:09 > 0:50:12with flies on the babies, but if I'm in that village

0:50:12 > 0:50:16where there are flies on the baby, I'm going to tell you that there

0:50:16 > 0:50:18are flies on the baby, because that government

0:50:18 > 0:50:19isn't doing something.

0:50:19 > 0:50:21A structural cause, and I can't make that go away,

0:50:21 > 0:50:25and no amount of Africa rising, and no amount of energy going,

0:50:25 > 0:50:26is going to take away that fact.

0:50:26 > 0:50:28It isn't a competition of victimhood, it's

0:50:28 > 0:50:32a statement of fact.

0:50:32 > 0:50:35The big issue we haven't discussed is the fundamental

0:50:35 > 0:50:36long-term solution.

0:50:36 > 0:50:38Let's do it!

0:50:38 > 0:50:40It's a fair global economy, a global economy that works

0:50:40 > 0:50:42for all the world's people.

0:50:42 > 0:50:44OK, Olivia.

0:50:44 > 0:50:46Here's one for you.

0:50:46 > 0:50:47Go ahead.

0:50:47 > 0:50:49Not a Comic Relief joke, don't worry.

0:50:49 > 0:50:51Is it the Chinese...

0:50:51 > 0:50:54The Chinese model, for examples, we go to Africa, we will build

0:50:54 > 0:50:57you a road, we will build you a railway, we will build

0:50:57 > 0:51:00you a football stadium, give us some of your minerals.

0:51:00 > 0:51:03And we'll work on your infrastructure.

0:51:03 > 0:51:05Or is it the kind of, here's ?72 million?

0:51:05 > 0:51:08Yeah, I would refuse the idea that it's just

0:51:08 > 0:51:09a choice between these two.

0:51:09 > 0:51:11The Chinese model is interesting, isn't it?

0:51:11 > 0:51:14Yes, it can be interesting, depending on whether...

0:51:14 > 0:51:16It's not interesting to the extent that if it's now just China

0:51:16 > 0:51:18doing exactly the things that we did before.

0:51:18 > 0:51:20It's not patronising, is it?

0:51:20 > 0:51:22It's a partnership of equals?

0:51:22 > 0:51:26The patronising is one element of it, and I think the colonialism

0:51:26 > 0:51:32discussion that we have, what is often misunderstood,

0:51:32 > 0:51:34is as if it is directed to people in the field.

0:51:34 > 0:51:37I actually have much more respect for many of them.

0:51:37 > 0:51:39I think the colonialism accusation is one that operates

0:51:39 > 0:51:40at a structural level.

0:51:40 > 0:51:43It's my politicians that actually think they can get away

0:51:43 > 0:51:45with changing something structural just because ActionAid

0:51:45 > 0:51:47and Save the Children exists.

0:51:47 > 0:51:50So it's not one or the other, but the problem is...

0:51:50 > 0:51:53Let's take the example of the Ebola crisis.

0:51:53 > 0:51:55People dying of Ebola is not because of the disease,

0:51:55 > 0:51:58it's where they contract it.

0:51:58 > 0:52:01So if you catch it in the US or in Spain, you are much

0:52:01 > 0:52:02more likely to survive.

0:52:02 > 0:52:05That is a structural, political example.

0:52:05 > 0:52:09At that moment, I can discuss with my students,

0:52:09 > 0:52:13should you SMS or whatever to whatever organisation to send

0:52:13 > 0:52:16doctors, or is it actually that at the same time as well,

0:52:16 > 0:52:18we need to, if we really care...

0:52:18 > 0:52:22NGOs work on both, so we are campaigning

0:52:22 > 0:52:25about immediate needs, and we are campaigning around tax

0:52:25 > 0:52:28evasion, corruption...

0:52:28 > 0:52:31Let me take you to investment in the future, and hopefully

0:52:31 > 0:52:34there are lessons learned about that about wish meat and all that.

0:52:34 > 0:52:37there are lessons learned about that about bush meat and all that.

0:52:37 > 0:52:39Richard, what about investment in the future?

0:52:39 > 0:52:43Going ahead, a new model.

0:52:43 > 0:52:46I think the illicit financial flows, as they are known.

0:52:46 > 0:52:48This is where companies working in Africa shift back

0:52:48 > 0:52:55all the profits back to Europe and the UK and America.

0:52:55 > 0:52:58Tax dodging.

0:52:58 > 0:53:01It's trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars that have

0:53:01 > 0:53:04been made in Africa and other poor countries, and then brought back in,

0:53:04 > 0:53:10through all sorts of ways, through the banking system,

0:53:10 > 0:53:11secret banking system.

0:53:11 > 0:53:15This is where all the wealth gets sucked out of Africa.

0:53:15 > 0:53:16Equally important...

0:53:16 > 0:53:18No change there, then.

0:53:18 > 0:53:20It's worse now than...

0:53:20 > 0:53:22The carving up of Africa.

0:53:22 > 0:53:25It steps up every year, the amount of money that just goes missing.

0:53:25 > 0:53:29Equally important is the flow of remittances.

0:53:29 > 0:53:33For many countries, the most important money

0:53:33 > 0:53:37is what the expatriots are sending back home.

0:53:37 > 0:53:40Unfortunately, the cost of transmitting the money is huge,

0:53:40 > 0:53:43charged by all the people who transmit the money.

0:53:43 > 0:53:47A lot could be done in allowing these expatriots of poor countries,

0:53:47 > 0:53:50who are living abroad and want to help their own country,

0:53:50 > 0:53:53and remittances are an extremely important part of development flows,

0:53:53 > 0:53:55much more so than aid is.

0:53:55 > 0:53:58By actually reducing the transaction costs of doing that,

0:53:58 > 0:54:01so that people can help their own countries back home.

0:54:01 > 0:54:05No one is disputing that.

0:54:05 > 0:54:10Looking at this going forward, on the investment side.

0:54:10 > 0:54:13The Chinese model that people have been speaking about is a much pure

0:54:13 > 0:54:14colonialism that you can see.

0:54:14 > 0:54:16Colonialism is about extracting something in exchange

0:54:16 > 0:54:18for what ever you are doing.

0:54:18 > 0:54:20They are extracting a deal from that, which is, either I'm

0:54:20 > 0:54:23going to stuff your pockets full of gold and then you are going

0:54:23 > 0:54:26to give me minerals, or I'll build you a bridge

0:54:26 > 0:54:27or a stadium that works that way.

0:54:27 > 0:54:29And we'll empty your forest as well.

0:54:29 > 0:54:31That's not a sustainable solution what's interesting is,

0:54:31 > 0:54:35a recent IMF report showed the six countries who had had an over 5% GDP

0:54:35 > 0:54:40growth in Africa from 1995 to 2010, none of those had Chinese money.

0:54:40 > 0:54:44They had to work on focusing on actually transforming

0:54:44 > 0:54:50their internal economy so they could compete

0:54:50 > 0:54:51in a broader factor.

0:54:51 > 0:54:54People were giving them more freedom, technology was coming in.

0:54:54 > 0:54:56When there's nothing left, the Chinese will go home.

0:54:56 > 0:54:59No, there's plenty left in those countries, but they decided not

0:54:59 > 0:55:01to go down that route, and instead to free their people

0:55:01 > 0:55:04to be as entrepreneurial and as focused on making changes

0:55:04 > 0:55:06as possible, and I think things like the Internet have helped.

0:55:06 > 0:55:09You've seen how the availability of phone banking in Africa

0:55:09 > 0:55:11has made a difference, how Internet availability

0:55:11 > 0:55:13of information helps people get goods to market.

0:55:13 > 0:55:16That technology of transformation is going to impact on Africa.

0:55:16 > 0:55:19That's what you were talking about, if I can come back to your point.

0:55:19 > 0:55:22I took it away, and I'm bringing it back, encouraging

0:55:22 > 0:55:22entrepreneurialism.

0:55:22 > 0:55:24That was your point, wasn't it?

0:55:24 > 0:55:27Yes, definitely, and thus creating local employment

0:55:27 > 0:55:31and boosting the economy.

0:55:31 > 0:55:38I don't think anyone is disputing that in the long

0:55:38 > 0:55:42run it is tax justice, its trade justice, it's

0:55:42 > 0:55:44women's empowerment, it's government is taking

0:55:44 > 0:55:45responsibility for workers in their own country.

0:55:45 > 0:55:47No one is disputing that.

0:55:47 > 0:55:49The question is, in the meantime, when there's 20 million people

0:55:49 > 0:55:52on the brink of starvation in these four crises across the world,

0:55:52 > 0:55:55I've never, in the 15 years I've worked in this field,

0:55:55 > 0:55:57seen so many simultaneous crises at such a grave level.

0:55:57 > 0:56:00It's what do we do today about the 20 million people at risk

0:56:00 > 0:56:01of starvation today?

0:56:01 > 0:56:04And it's not good enough to say that we will wait

0:56:04 > 0:56:06for the politics to catch up.

0:56:06 > 0:56:07Wait, Richard.

0:56:07 > 0:56:07We've discussed this before.

0:56:07 > 0:56:10Somebody once said to me that South Africa is the least

0:56:10 > 0:56:13corrupt country in Africa, but one of the most corrupt

0:56:13 > 0:56:14countries in the world.

0:56:14 > 0:56:15So what about that?

0:56:15 > 0:56:16How do we address that...

0:56:16 > 0:56:18There's corruption everywhere, but how do we address

0:56:18 > 0:56:20that massive corruption in the continent of Africa?

0:56:20 > 0:56:22I suspect that a lot of the money from that

0:56:22 > 0:56:24corruption is in this country, and in other offshore

0:56:24 > 0:56:27British-flagged islands.

0:56:27 > 0:56:30Because of the secrecy in the banking laws,

0:56:30 > 0:56:34it's impossible for anyone to find out where it is,

0:56:34 > 0:56:38and how much is there.

0:56:38 > 0:56:40But I think that is the biggest drain on Africa, those illicit

0:56:40 > 0:56:44financial flows that end up in secret bank accounts.

0:56:44 > 0:56:47Goes on your global wealth point, doesn't it, the inequalities?

0:56:47 > 0:56:50Absolutely.

0:56:50 > 0:56:57We need a global economic system that works for all the world's

0:56:57 > 0:57:00people, and where the terms of trade are not rigged against poor

0:57:00 > 0:57:01developing countries.

0:57:01 > 0:57:04So how do we achieve that?

0:57:04 > 0:57:06A rewrite of the World Trade Organisation rules.

0:57:06 > 0:57:07Let's do it!

0:57:07 > 0:57:09And it's within our power to do that.

0:57:09 > 0:57:14And it's also, as you mentioned earlier, if there's going to be

0:57:14 > 0:57:18investment in developing countries, let's have the investment

0:57:18 > 0:57:21that empowers the people there to uplift themselves,

0:57:21 > 0:57:24and not be dependent on aid in the long-term.

0:57:24 > 0:57:29But at the same time, I think it's really important

0:57:29 > 0:57:32that we are very clear about how flat the system is.

0:57:32 > 0:57:38So if our attempt is just to bring in people to trade and investment,

0:57:38 > 0:57:40I think, even in the Western countries, we start to realise

0:57:40 > 0:57:43that the whole trade, capitalist system that we have,

0:57:43 > 0:57:47and I'm not going to make big political statements here,

0:57:47 > 0:57:52but the reason why we need to bring in the colonial experience is not

0:57:52 > 0:57:55just to play on people's guilt feeling, or say bad,

0:57:55 > 0:57:56good people, paternalism or whatever.

0:57:56 > 0:58:00It's that we actually, every time we leave our big chunk of the story.

0:58:00 > 0:58:02So even the rise of capitalism.

0:58:02 > 0:58:06Let's say it wasn't possible without colonial...

0:58:06 > 0:58:10If we are not capable of seeing how that is so embedded,

0:58:10 > 0:58:13and then we say, we need to create a new economic system.

0:58:13 > 0:58:17It's about really trying to understand how...

0:58:17 > 0:58:19I'm so sorry.

0:58:19 > 0:58:21We are out of time.

0:58:21 > 0:58:22Really?

0:58:22 > 0:58:23Yeah.

0:58:23 > 0:58:25Gosh.

0:58:25 > 0:58:26It just goes like that, doesn't it?

0:58:26 > 0:58:27You've all been brilliant.

0:58:27 > 0:58:29Thank you very much indeed.

0:58:29 > 0:58:30The debate continues on Twitter and online.

0:58:30 > 0:58:32Join us next Sunday from Salford.

0:58:32 > 0:58:33Goodbye from everyone here in York.

0:58:33 > 0:58:40Have a great Sunday.