:00:00. > :00:00.Today on The Big Questions: taxes and fair shares; taking
:00:07. > :00:25.offence; and facing death with and without God.
:00:26. > :00:29.Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
:00:30. > :00:33.Today we're live from Oasis Academy MediaCityUK in Salford.
:00:34. > :00:35.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
:00:36. > :00:44.Promises about tax always play a big part in elections.
:00:45. > :00:48.Pledges not to increase VAT, National Insurance or income taxes
:00:49. > :00:52.in the Tories' 2015 manifesto came back to haunt the Chancellor,
:00:53. > :00:55.Philip Hammond, when he tried to balance his recent budget.
:00:56. > :00:58.We'll find out next week whether that pledge still stands.
:00:59. > :01:00.Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, has warned all those earning ?80,000
:01:01. > :01:03.a year or more that they may be paying more tax
:01:04. > :01:08.And their leaked manifesto promises various rises in spending that
:01:09. > :01:14.And the LibDems are saying everyone should pay 1% more tax to fund
:01:15. > :01:18.But is there a limit to what is fair?
:01:19. > :01:29.Is it right to take more than 50% in tax?
:01:30. > :01:37.Pfizer Sheehan, would you do it, whether it is mixed, a little bit of
:01:38. > :01:41.money, revenue neutral, people change their behaviour, would you do
:01:42. > :01:46.it anyway on a point of moral principle? It should raise more
:01:47. > :01:50.money, even where it wasn't, it's because people are avoiding tax and
:01:51. > :01:54.that's another issue. I wouldn't give people lower tax because they
:01:55. > :01:57.are avoiding tax, giving people a reward. I understand but it
:01:58. > :02:03.behaviour changes and you can't change it, but Ulster be avoidance,
:02:04. > :02:09.look at France, 75% tax on super-rich raising about 100 and six
:02:10. > :02:14.-- 160 million euros, as far as I remember it the national deficit was
:02:15. > :02:19.80 billion. The darling of the centre-left, Emmanuel Macron said it
:02:20. > :02:23.was Kubot without the sunshine. The issue is, why are people changing
:02:24. > :02:30.their behaviour and I think tax gets a bad rap. If we didn't have texts
:02:31. > :02:34.-- taxes, public resources, schools hospitals and roads would suffer.
:02:35. > :02:38.Places they don't have tax resources, it's scary, tax is the
:02:39. > :02:44.price we pay personal life society and people avoiding it is an issue.
:02:45. > :02:49.I think it's especially fared to give, charge people with higher
:02:50. > :02:54.incomes higher,... Is it morally right? Yes, because we've seen
:02:55. > :03:01.inequality grew somewhat, the top 1%, if we take together and it did
:03:02. > :03:06.they take a bigger share of that, the top 10% per instance back in the
:03:07. > :03:11.late 70s took about 1.9% more than the bottom 10% now it's nine times
:03:12. > :03:18.as much, we know FTSE bosses get 108 times the average worker in the
:03:19. > :03:24.company earns. They earn more. What's happened is we have seen a
:03:25. > :03:30.shift towards income going, the top five and 1%, the rest of us get
:03:31. > :03:37.more, we get less, so it stagnates. It's a correction to the levels of
:03:38. > :03:42.the quality we have. Caroline... I don't think you're going to agree.
:03:43. > :03:45.I'm not. But what about the moral issue? If you've done as well as
:03:46. > :03:51.that in society it's not an attack on wealth, success, it's basically
:03:52. > :03:56.saying PA little bit more, help us all be a community about it, more
:03:57. > :04:00.for roads, social care, hospitals, schools... What really worries me.
:04:01. > :04:04.We are all in this together. Absolutely. But what worries me as
:04:05. > :04:09.the rate goes up the billionaires can do something about it but the
:04:10. > :04:13.guys who earn a little bit more, workers and Sabres, they are the
:04:14. > :04:17.ones who will be faced with 50% tax and I don't think that's fair. But
:04:18. > :04:22.what I do think, we ought to stay start thinking about the existing
:04:23. > :04:27.tax system which allows them, enables them to avoid the tax. At
:04:28. > :04:33.the moment we have a very silly system in the UK for by if you are a
:04:34. > :04:37.non-domicilliary you can put your money outside the UK, there are
:04:38. > :04:43.incentives for keeping it abroad and in that situation, I think -- don't
:04:44. > :04:46.think it's right. I think we should have a tax incentive that makes the
:04:47. > :04:52.billions come to Britain and that's what we need to do. We July to load
:04:53. > :04:56.the top rate of tax? I would. I'm not a policy maker but what I want
:04:57. > :05:02.to see is lower the rate of tax for the simple reason that everyone will
:05:03. > :05:08.feel richer and they will then spend more and if they spent more... I
:05:09. > :05:12.would say around 35%. When they spend more they benefit Britain and
:05:13. > :05:16.businesses in Britain. That's my plan B. Lydia, 35%, do you think
:05:17. > :05:25.you'd get more money from that for the Exchequer? Remember if we can
:05:26. > :05:33.get money to move we get it in taxation, we get it in VAT. Lydia.
:05:34. > :05:39.Pfizer Sheehan hit the nail on the head, taxes this site shall,
:05:40. > :05:44.inequality is the driver. Society is very unequal, having the rich pay
:05:45. > :05:49.more tax equalises things. So when society is an equal... In Fort Wayne
:05:50. > :05:53.doesn't equalise things that doesn't raise much revenue, which is the
:05:54. > :05:56.argument on the other side and you would actually raise more revenue
:05:57. > :06:02.for the reasons that Caroline alluded to, RUC in it's a point of
:06:03. > :06:07.moral principle? No, I'm not. I'm considering evidence, I think there
:06:08. > :06:14.is fairly strong evidence that more equal societies tent to do better.
:06:15. > :06:18.Amber also evidence that more equal societies tend to do better whether
:06:19. > :06:24.those societies are more equal of the gross income level or at the net
:06:25. > :06:31.income level. So I think that's a really interesting point. Perhaps
:06:32. > :06:35.tax is not really the issue. It's a collective psychological impact, in
:06:36. > :06:40.a sense? Any thoughts, audience? Gentlemen in the pink shirt. I think
:06:41. > :06:45.perhaps it depends on the circumstances. Right now, speaking
:06:46. > :06:49.as a student many of my friends, I'm from Gibraltar, my tuition fees is
:06:50. > :06:52.ordered but many of my friends and people of my generation, students
:06:53. > :06:57.will be saddled with debt. We see across the road from here, the
:06:58. > :07:01.homelessness in Greater Manchester and it's part of the mayoral debate,
:07:02. > :07:06.40 million people looking for homes, public services are stretched to the
:07:07. > :07:09.limit, if there is ever a time to raise taxes on the wealthiest in the
:07:10. > :07:17.nation it's probably now. Anyone else? Are you worried it reaches a
:07:18. > :07:21.rate for by its, this is the argument, it's so punitive you get
:07:22. > :07:30.less money? This is a lack of care... We are beyond that. I would
:07:31. > :07:36.say is the limit, around 70% maximum. But I think technically we
:07:37. > :07:41.can go about 50 now. When you say 70% and I just have to say, Angelus
:07:42. > :07:46.eyes nearly popped out of her head. What's wrong with 70% from people
:07:47. > :07:51.who have the broadest shoulders? We have a big social care crisis. We
:07:52. > :07:55.do, there is a novel lot of benevolence amongst the wealthiest
:07:56. > :07:59.in society. Setting aside fiscal discussions about net benefits and
:08:00. > :08:04.whether it's going to raise tax, wealth has become a Deidre word in
:08:05. > :08:09.this country. -- dirty word. What we want to promote, as the mother of
:08:10. > :08:15.students, and aspirational culture, they feel they work hard, hopefully
:08:16. > :08:17.they will have a fulfilling life and contribute to society, hopefully
:08:18. > :08:21.have a job that gives them enough solvency to enjoy life and make the
:08:22. > :08:24.right moral choices with the money they earn but if they are
:08:25. > :08:28.consistently browbeat -- browbeaten by the notion that it is wrong to
:08:29. > :08:33.earn a decent amount of money and somehow, as you said before, you
:08:34. > :08:38.pre-faced this by saying the largest amount of tax comes from those who
:08:39. > :08:43.earn the most ready... More to come. I think it's a poor lesson to young
:08:44. > :08:47.people. We want them to aspire, not just from a monetary position at
:08:48. > :08:52.from an emotional and social welfare position. We are not ever telling
:08:53. > :08:56.them wealth is a dirty word. 90% of tax comes from the top 50% in
:08:57. > :09:00.society, various levels and statistics so what about that? The
:09:01. > :09:07.object to the wealthy, people being wealthy? We don't want a society
:09:08. > :09:10.that can be oppressive but at the same time levels of wealth
:09:11. > :09:13.inequality that we have in this country, especially attached to
:09:14. > :09:18.housing, a lot of young people can't afford to buy a house and they can't
:09:19. > :09:22.get on the wealth ladder and so we have levels of inequality that hurt
:09:23. > :09:25.aspiration, hurt social mobility. I think there's a right balance we can
:09:26. > :09:29.reach and we are not there right now, we've gone from being one of
:09:30. > :09:33.the most equal countries to being one of the most unequal high-income
:09:34. > :09:39.countries. It was 60% under Mrs Thatcher. There are levels, I agree
:09:40. > :09:45.that become punitive but 50% is not bad and I think given for we are in
:09:46. > :09:48.terms of inequality in public services, young people aren't having
:09:49. > :09:52.a chance and also the levels of them to generation inequality, people
:09:53. > :09:57.above 40 plus have so much wealth income than those in younger
:09:58. > :10:00.generations we should rebalance and the best thing is when you get
:10:01. > :10:03.people on lower to middle income is more money and more ability to spend
:10:04. > :10:07.they are more likely to spend it than the rich. You don't want to
:10:08. > :10:13.give tax cuts to the rich because they say that. The poor spend it.
:10:14. > :10:19.Alex from the taxpayers Alliance, that's a very potent point about
:10:20. > :10:22.future generations. Our children and grandchildren, will does not have
:10:23. > :10:25.the quality-of-life that so many of us were lucky to have had. We need
:10:26. > :10:29.to invest in their future by paying more tax, don't we? There is a
:10:30. > :10:36.number of points. The first is that if you think, should be taxed more
:10:37. > :10:42.than 50% of peoples earnings, this is that because it happens, the 60p
:10:43. > :10:47.rate of income tax, the personal allowance... What is the optimum
:10:48. > :10:51.rate? Depends what you want. If you are talking strictly about revenue
:10:52. > :10:58.raising, you probably are looking at some work between ?40.45, revenue
:10:59. > :11:02.raising highest but I don't think the aim of the tax system should be
:11:03. > :11:06.to raise as much revenue. If you want less of something tax it more,
:11:07. > :11:11.if you want less wealthy tax and more, less wealthy rich people in
:11:12. > :11:15.high income jobs to come to your country tax them more. It's better
:11:16. > :11:17.to have lower rates to get more of these people here paying tax and
:11:18. > :11:23.doing all these things in the first place. Is there proof that happens?
:11:24. > :11:28.Plenty of proof, look at the 1970s... What sort of people come,
:11:29. > :11:34.those who have expensive accountants... Get through a very
:11:35. > :11:39.the kit system. Quite, the system is far too, Decatur but the reason why
:11:40. > :11:43.people hire expensive accountants and try to avoid taxes because the
:11:44. > :11:49.rates are so high, if that was 20% instead of 52%, there would be less
:11:50. > :11:53.incentive for people to avoid it. Does it indicate a lack of
:11:54. > :11:57.benevolence? There is less incentive, need to avoid it, the
:11:58. > :12:03.rates are less punitive. The more that we tax, the more people will
:12:04. > :12:06.try to avoid and the more we have anti avoidance measures and stuff
:12:07. > :12:11.like that, more and more resentment comes into the system, more people
:12:12. > :12:16.avoided, we are in a constant downward spiral, people constantly
:12:17. > :12:23.resent the system. Let me ask Don Foster about this. It's a completely
:12:24. > :12:26.backward argument, we have two children, one behaves well, one
:12:27. > :12:30.misbehaves, we don't try and bribe the other child into behaving well
:12:31. > :12:35.while ignoring the one who does behave well. I think rather than say
:12:36. > :12:41.we have to teach aspiration, which is a big problem because we have a
:12:42. > :12:46.rigid class system, we need to take responsibility so we have to ask,
:12:47. > :12:51.how much money do people need? The top 1% have far more money than they
:12:52. > :12:54.could ever use, they have ordered extensively and we have to crack
:12:55. > :12:58.down on wealth avoidance and we have to raise revenue by raising taxes.
:12:59. > :13:03.And we have to do that until we have a better social care system, that
:13:04. > :13:09.NHS and we have to teach people to be democratic... Inheritance tax?
:13:10. > :13:14.Wealth tax? Top rate of income tax up? They all have to go up, we have
:13:15. > :13:17.to address intergenerational inequality which comes down to
:13:18. > :13:22.housing, assets and the passing of love from generation to generation.
:13:23. > :13:26.It's a small number of people hit by inheritance tax and they aren't hit
:13:27. > :13:29.to the extent that my claim to be so I think we need to properly address
:13:30. > :13:37.wealth inequality, doing that by revenue raising. You are taxing
:13:38. > :13:41.people twice, and you? With inheritance tax. You are taxing
:13:42. > :13:50.people twice. You are, because it's wealth that they've earned. Is it
:13:51. > :13:53.fair? Yes, yes it is. Tax them twice, tax them again, tax them
:13:54. > :13:59.again... I was just going to say, you're a really good writer, if you
:14:00. > :14:02.wrote a book that were to be a massive JK Rowling bestseller and
:14:03. > :14:09.made zillions you'd be quite happy to give more than 50% of it away? I
:14:10. > :14:13.would, I have a small number of friends who are enough to put them
:14:14. > :14:16.in the top 1% and they are happy to pay the full amount of tax and I
:14:17. > :14:20.think we need to... JK Rowling is happy to pay her full amount, we
:14:21. > :14:27.need to look at these people as role models... You haven't asked... I'm
:14:28. > :14:34.sorry, did I call you Naomi? This is all very taxing, if I may say so.
:14:35. > :14:37.The problem is we not talking about giving it away, were talking about
:14:38. > :14:40.it being taken of people and countries with lower tax rate is,
:14:41. > :14:44.the United States, in some states tax is about as high as it is in the
:14:45. > :14:50.UK but generally speaking they are lower, about twice as philanthropic,
:14:51. > :14:55.three times as people in the UK, the average American giving $15 a week
:14:56. > :15:00.to charity. The poorest gives more than the wealthiest. What you're
:15:01. > :15:03.doing by taxing and redistributing like this, you are effectively
:15:04. > :15:06.raising the morale of the state above that of the individual and I
:15:07. > :15:10.find that quite offensive and it's not as if the state is completely
:15:11. > :15:14.benevolent. Politicians have their client groups and they have key
:15:15. > :15:16.voters and they have key constituencies, it's not as if all
:15:17. > :15:23.this money is going on lovely things that we can all agree with, but
:15:24. > :15:29.that's trusting politicians. They are going to spend it on things that
:15:30. > :15:33.we wanted to be spent on, I put the kid Spender done, but don't spend it
:15:34. > :15:40.on that, even more, Decatur. More thoughts from the audience?
:15:41. > :15:45.Just going back to the issue of inheritance tax, I have been
:15:46. > :15:49.fortunate, I have been able to retire early from the public sector
:15:50. > :15:54.and help my children. I am hoping that either for the next seven years
:15:55. > :15:58.so they do not end up the charge on that inheritance tax. You have to be
:15:59. > :16:03.careful, there is a lot of direct taxation and a lot of indirect
:16:04. > :16:07.taxation. If you pass the house onto them no... I have been able to
:16:08. > :16:16.assist them in buying houses themselves, I am doing my to give
:16:17. > :16:19.them their inheritances early without the worry of not seeing them
:16:20. > :16:23.able to achieve what they want to achieve. The lady beside our friend
:16:24. > :16:27.from Gibraltar? With me, I can understand as a student and also I
:16:28. > :16:33.graduated 18 months ago, I am setting up my own business... How
:16:34. > :16:38.much debt do you have at the moment? It is quite substantial. With me,
:16:39. > :16:42.what I want to do is have the ability to earn that money back from
:16:43. > :16:46.my own business. I am of the opinion that if... As I say, I can
:16:47. > :16:54.understand why people think it should be increased but at the same
:16:55. > :16:57.time we should reward people who earn money, their own money their
:16:58. > :16:59.own way, rather than taxing excessively above 50%. That is just
:17:00. > :17:05.my opinion. APPLAUSE
:17:06. > :17:10.Faiza, how do you have a tax system that encourages entrepreneurialism
:17:11. > :17:14.and encourages people... Lots of us work hard, if they are lucky enough
:17:15. > :17:19.to work hard and to make a lot of money and create a lot of jobs and
:17:20. > :17:25.wealth, what is your incentive? Weedy progressive systems and we do
:17:26. > :17:30.not want extreme levels, being 70, 75, 80%, they become a disincentive.
:17:31. > :17:35.But for the most part we have a progressive system. Even in the US,
:17:36. > :17:43.Bill Gates set up Microsoft when tax rates were double what they are now.
:17:44. > :17:46.Questions about Microsoft, globally. Questions asked. There is something
:17:47. > :17:51.important about the deal you make is a government, if you tax people
:17:52. > :17:55.more, what you do. We have seen the top 1% in top 5% give more is that
:17:56. > :17:58.we have seen the fall in middle-income jobs, we should be
:17:59. > :18:02.investing back into the economy so that others can pay more tax. We
:18:03. > :18:06.keep hearing that employment has gone up but the tax rate has gone
:18:07. > :18:11.down because so many people are on low incomes. So what you do to plug
:18:12. > :18:16.the gap in the economy should be the question. Some people pay 90% of
:18:17. > :18:24.tax. But if you boost the economy you have more jobs. If you cap it
:18:25. > :18:28.too high, you drain the people... We have not seen that. At extreme
:18:29. > :18:35.levels you would see that, not at 50%. We have had 50% tax, there is a
:18:36. > :18:38.quirk in the system now and people are leaving. Businesses would leave
:18:39. > :18:42.if they did not happen educated workforce, good roads, a good health
:18:43. > :18:46.system that staff could rely on, that is when businesses would leave.
:18:47. > :18:51.APPLAUSE When you are dealing with businesses
:18:52. > :18:55.you are talking about a system of tax that pays 19%. 19%
:18:56. > :18:59.incorporation, you keep your money in your company and do not take it
:19:00. > :19:06.out as income. If you take it out as income you are taxed at 45, 50, 60%,
:19:07. > :19:10.you do not do it. It is terribly important that we have more
:19:11. > :19:14.equality, that is why I will say bring the rate down, don't raise it
:19:15. > :19:18.up for Corporation Tax, if you do that we will drive businesses out of
:19:19. > :19:23.the country for the various reasons that you say that we have a safe and
:19:24. > :19:34.secure country and a fantastic workforce. Khalil, as a Muslim, 10%
:19:35. > :19:42.during come those two... Sorry? Is it 2.5%? I was talking about the old
:19:43. > :19:46.ties! 2.5%. What, principally, do you think about taking more than
:19:47. > :19:51.half of what someone earns? Some people say it is a moral duty, the
:19:52. > :19:55.right thing to do is agree, some people say it is unethical and
:19:56. > :20:00.immoral because you are discouraging people to work hard? Where are you?
:20:01. > :20:04.The system of redistribution of wealth, the important thing here is
:20:05. > :20:08.that when you live in a democracy it is not just about having a free
:20:09. > :20:12.vote, it is about transparency. There have been great arguments on
:20:13. > :20:16.the panel about how you use the money. What is important is when you
:20:17. > :20:26.are setting the tax rate you have transparency in how that is
:20:27. > :20:28.distributed. In my view it is important to recognise that the
:20:29. > :20:31.economic crisis for many people and many families is not over. What we
:20:32. > :20:34.need from all of the political parties when making a tax policy is
:20:35. > :20:37.to understand how it will be used and have it will benefit the
:20:38. > :20:40.population of the country. Thank you very much indeed for your
:20:41. > :20:42.contributions, all of you. I look forward to hearing far more from all
:20:43. > :20:46.of you later as we proceed. If you have something to say
:20:47. > :20:48.about that debate log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,
:20:49. > :20:50.where you'll find links to join We're also debating live this
:20:51. > :20:54.morning from Salford: Do we have a right
:20:55. > :20:56.not to be offended? And is death easier
:20:57. > :20:58.if you believe in God? So, get tweeting or emailing
:20:59. > :21:01.on those topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may
:21:02. > :21:07.have about the show. On Tuesday, the Irish police
:21:08. > :21:09.dropped their investigation into claims Stephen Fry made
:21:10. > :21:11.blasphemous remarks on a television Fry asked why he should "respect
:21:12. > :21:18.a capricious, mean-minded, stupid god who creates
:21:19. > :21:22.a world full of injustice." People have said much worse on this
:21:23. > :21:28.programme over the past decade. But in Jakarta, Indonesia,
:21:29. > :21:31.blasphemy has landed the Christian governor in prison,
:21:32. > :21:33.after he suggested some imams had misused Koranic verses
:21:34. > :21:35.to discriminate against Christian These days some students want
:21:36. > :21:46.trigger warnings if a law lecturer plans to discuss a rape case
:21:47. > :21:49.or a literature professor wants to analyse a gruesome play,
:21:50. > :21:55.like Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus. And woe betide you if someone
:21:56. > :21:58.insists they are neither male nor Do we have a right
:21:59. > :22:19.not to be offended? Dawn, what's all this? What's all
:22:20. > :22:26.this? When I was at university, a little while ago, I didn't want safe
:22:27. > :22:30.spaces, I want a dangerous basis, I wanted challenges. We debated with
:22:31. > :22:36.Communists, fascists, we didn't have is amiss in those days... I'm sure
:22:37. > :22:41.you did extra measure my I joke, but not at Aberdeen University. We
:22:42. > :22:47.relished that. What is the problem? We always focus on the most extreme
:22:48. > :22:52.examples. I left university in 2010 and we had a big debate while I was
:22:53. > :22:59.there about whether or not to remove the no platform policy for the BNP.
:23:00. > :23:02.The debate was about the fact that we were a membership organisation, a
:23:03. > :23:06.students union, and lots of the Jewish and Muslim students, lots of
:23:07. > :23:11.the black and Asian students said that if fascists were entered into
:23:12. > :23:14.their organisation we would not... They would not feel safe. We have to
:23:15. > :23:19.look at the fact that everybody should be free to express political
:23:20. > :23:23.opinions, up to a point where it discriminates against others. You
:23:24. > :23:28.happy by Peter Tatchell and Germaine Greer who are no platform, people
:23:29. > :23:31.who have fought all the way for the rights of others Daesh you have
:23:32. > :23:38.people like Peter Tatchell and Germaine Greer. These great human
:23:39. > :23:42.rights campaigners. Douglas Carswell from Ukip is banned from one
:23:43. > :23:46.university and is an elected representative. When you have Peter
:23:47. > :23:52.Tatchell and Jermaine Greer getting no platform, Islamist 's with
:23:53. > :23:56.poisonous to views do not have no platform, there is not a level
:23:57. > :24:05.playing field and makes no sense. A lot of the issues here are conflated
:24:06. > :24:11.them not being invited to a specific debate... Trigger warnings. I would
:24:12. > :24:15.not personally no platform Peter Tatchell Douglas Carswell, but there
:24:16. > :24:21.is an argument against some very extreme Islamists, some very extreme
:24:22. > :24:26.fascists. You have to look at whether people feel safe in their
:24:27. > :24:30.organisations, their private spaces. Everybody should have the right to
:24:31. > :24:33.be heard in public spaces, we were discussing Nick Griffin at
:24:34. > :24:36.university, Nick Griffin not being invited to the University of Warwick
:24:37. > :24:41.campus did not stop him from standing on the street and is
:24:42. > :24:46.posting any views he wanted. We have to look at, for instance... When he
:24:47. > :24:51.was on Question Time he made a fool of himself coming he was tested. But
:24:52. > :24:55.it could have gone the other way and he could have roused applause. One
:24:56. > :25:02.journalist said we were expecting Oswald Mosley and we got David
:25:03. > :25:06.Brent. Adam, is it a case of trusting people? You can understand
:25:07. > :25:10.Dawn's argument, someone has maybe left home for the first time, in a
:25:11. > :25:13.university environment, it might stifle their confidence in
:25:14. > :25:18.expressing their opinions because they have somebody so unpleasant
:25:19. > :25:26.that? I exactly agree, university should be a dangerous space. The
:25:27. > :25:29.University in the press is often described as a home from home,
:25:30. > :25:34.universities make those points. It is not a comfy home surrounding, it
:25:35. > :25:37.is a dangerous place where ideas should be tested. Within this debate
:25:38. > :25:42.everybody claims to support free speech, that is the problem, they
:25:43. > :25:52.say I support free speech but... But this is the exception. Where is your
:25:53. > :25:55.but? There is no but. Free speech is to be absolute, so you often find
:25:56. > :26:02.yourself to spending people who you disagree with entirely. A Holocaust
:26:03. > :26:04.denier? If you silence people, you lose the opportunity to defeat these
:26:05. > :26:08.ideas. APPLAUSE
:26:09. > :26:14.You lose the opportunity to engage with them and put them down, which
:26:15. > :26:17.is really important for society, more broadly. As activists and
:26:18. > :26:20.citizens we should be debating and discussing things in order to build
:26:21. > :26:27.a better future for everyone. That is the point of free speech. On this
:26:28. > :26:32.show we have had the BNP when they had elected representatives, we have
:26:33. > :26:33.had Anjem Choudary, all manner of Islamists, Tommy Robinson from the
:26:34. > :26:54.EDL. People can play but we would argue it was in
:26:55. > :26:57.context and there was a proper reason for it. Any thoughts from the
:26:58. > :26:59.audience? The guy in the grey shirt? The right to not be offended begins
:27:00. > :27:02.and ends with your right to not listen. You can't stop someone
:27:03. > :27:03.else's mouth, only your own ears. You have to think for yourself.
:27:04. > :27:10.APPLAUSE Stephen, does anything go with free
:27:11. > :27:12.speech? I believe so. I suppose it might direct incitement to violence,
:27:13. > :27:17.but how would you classify incitement? It is treating the
:27:18. > :27:20.public as infants that can be incited into committing violence at
:27:21. > :27:27.an instruction. We have all heard the expression it is taken, not
:27:28. > :27:31.given, it is entirely subjective. What I find deeply offensive might
:27:32. > :27:35.not faze the next person, vice versa. Where do you draw the line
:27:36. > :27:39.and who do you trust to draw it? Given things I hear people getting
:27:40. > :27:45.offended about, I trust nobody to draw that line. Who needs a safe
:27:46. > :27:50.space? Possibly a group that might have a good shout for this is former
:27:51. > :27:55.Muslims, they are ostracised by the larger community, it can be a great
:27:56. > :27:59.risk to their personhood if they come out against Islam, vocally. I
:28:00. > :28:05.speak to a lot of former Muslim groups... The guy behind you is not
:28:06. > :28:09.happy at all. I work at a university. At the University I work
:28:10. > :28:15.for an ex-Muslim group came up to the campus and I was asked to sit in
:28:16. > :28:19.and observe, this is nonsense that ex-Muslims are somehow scared and
:28:20. > :28:23.the idea that... It is not Muslims, Muslims are the most attacked people
:28:24. > :28:26.in the press by everyone. You can't open a newspaper, turn on the
:28:27. > :28:31.television without Muslims being attacked. In the last five minutes I
:28:32. > :28:47.have heard about Islamist them used by almost everyone who has spoken.
:28:48. > :28:51.Which Islamist people are you speaking to? That is offensive to
:28:52. > :28:53.me. Do I had to sit here and take it? If you are an Islamist that you
:28:54. > :28:56.have certain views on homosexuals, for example, if you are LGBT you
:28:57. > :28:59.might find that offensive, but is it not better to debate that Islamist,
:29:00. > :29:02.if I might use that term? I have had to listen to many anti-Muslim
:29:03. > :29:08.comments, but there is a line. What about anti-LGBT comments? Stephen?
:29:09. > :29:11.You made a point about Muslims having to put up with anti-Muslim
:29:12. > :29:17.abuse, ex-Muslims have to put up with that. There are misconceptions
:29:18. > :29:21.about you based on skin colour or your Arabic sounding name or
:29:22. > :29:23.whatever, that is projected onto ex-Muslims, and they have the added
:29:24. > :29:32.ostracisation from their own communities. Angela, would you sit
:29:33. > :29:39.on a platform with a Holocaust denier? Given...? Absolutely not.
:29:40. > :29:42.Absolutely not, because... Is a second-generation, both my parents
:29:43. > :29:48.are survivors, my father over for and a half years in different camps,
:29:49. > :29:52.including concentration camps, my mother questioned at gunpoint by the
:29:53. > :29:56.Gestapo aged ten, I cannot tolerate the term Holocaust denier, because
:29:57. > :30:06.Holocaust happened, it is not open to debate, you cannot debate if it
:30:07. > :30:09.happened or not. It is one example, sorry, Angela, that you cannot use.
:30:10. > :30:13.It is not the same as flat earth, it happened in 1939 to 1945. Excuse me,
:30:14. > :30:17.you cannot deny facts. I feel really strongly. In that sense, there is no
:30:18. > :30:24.debate. As far as debate goes I would like to say that I'm open to
:30:25. > :30:34.free speech with a limit of... There is a limit.
:30:35. > :30:43.I don't think individual psychology and emotional harm our bigger
:30:44. > :30:47.principles of make-up foundation of society, I don't think it's the name
:30:48. > :30:49.of mine to go out and offend people, I don't think it's good to
:30:50. > :30:56.pointlessly offend people and in many ways this debate has become
:30:57. > :31:02.toxic... This debate? The broader free-speech debate. The general
:31:03. > :31:10.debate. The name-calling. Free speech is calling no platform
:31:11. > :31:16.snowflakes, being quite aggressive, -- I think what we need to
:31:17. > :31:20.understand is that free speech is a vehicle to enable us to progress as
:31:21. > :31:28.a society and it is also the bedrock of freedom. All freedoms. As a
:31:29. > :31:32.Moslem, the bedrock for society, we've made progress because of
:31:33. > :31:36.free-speech kicking against clerical power and authoritarian power and
:31:37. > :31:39.getting two where we are, the freedom to save what we want and
:31:40. > :31:44.that much cherished freedom, the freedom to ridicule which said early
:31:45. > :31:50.British and European thing, people who are against it, something of a
:31:51. > :31:54.cultural imposition but your community has suffered greatly and
:31:55. > :32:00.you feel that you have been slandered. Yes, my community has
:32:01. > :32:03.suffered as a result of blasphemy laws and we might come to that as
:32:04. > :32:09.the conversation progresses... In other countries. Free speech is...
:32:10. > :32:13.He's shaking his head again, that fella. Sorry, carry on. Free-speech
:32:14. > :32:18.is important, a fundamental right that should be protected but with
:32:19. > :32:21.every right comes a level of responsibility, it's not something I
:32:22. > :32:27.make up, we see that everywhere. On this programme today you wouldn't be
:32:28. > :32:31.able to use abusive language, we have norms and rules that protect
:32:32. > :32:36.against that, even the UK Human Rights Act... You might add to ten
:32:37. > :32:40.o'clock, and I don't mean ten o'clock this morning. The UK Human
:32:41. > :32:44.Rights Act has by our Parliament and our democratically elected leaders
:32:45. > :32:50.talks about freedom of expression in article ten budget talks about it in
:32:51. > :32:54.the context of morality, the context of responsibility. It's important,
:32:55. > :32:58.absolutely important that we protect the right of spree speech but we do
:32:59. > :33:03.it in a way that doesn't impose on minorities or the week... The
:33:04. > :33:08.measure of democracy and the measure of our freedom is not how much we
:33:09. > :33:13.are able... What exactly, we have a right, Chris Hitchens, Sunday said I
:33:14. > :33:28.find that offensive and his next question was, your point is... It's
:33:29. > :33:31.interesting, you identify as an Amadi muslin and it's one of the
:33:32. > :33:40.largest persecuted sections of the Muslim community. Asad Shah, the
:33:41. > :33:44.shopkeeper in Glasgow, held by a fellow Muslim because of his belief
:33:45. > :33:49.and proclamations about faith, once you justify this offence culture you
:33:50. > :33:52.provide people with rhetorical tools and justification to take matters
:33:53. > :33:58.into their own hands. What we are not saying it's you can't have free
:33:59. > :34:02.debate and discussion, it is absolutely important that you are
:34:03. > :34:07.able to challenge what I believe, what a Jew believes, a Hindu or a
:34:08. > :34:11.Christian, I defend that right, people should be able to save what
:34:12. > :34:15.they want to see in order to get to the truth but when you start to use
:34:16. > :34:21.free speech in order to ridicule and to insult and hurt and harm without
:34:22. > :34:29.purpose, that does not benefit society. Look, I am born in a
:34:30. > :34:33.century... I am born in a century... Whose truth, this is a thing?
:34:34. > :34:38.Ridicule. We glory in ridicule, one at a time, Angela has been trying to
:34:39. > :34:44.come in. You have been jumping up and down in your chair. You said
:34:45. > :34:48.absolutely you would not... A Holocaust denier, if I can use that
:34:49. > :34:53.term. She eloquently made the point that I was going to makes or I won't
:34:54. > :34:56.repeat it, setting aside that it's humongous Lee offensive to Jewish
:34:57. > :35:02.people or anybody who believes that shouldn't... To humanity. The
:35:03. > :35:05.bleakest moment in the annals of human history but the problem is
:35:06. > :35:10.what we have touched upon in this debate, there is a default position
:35:11. > :35:13.in society, this generation outrage and the moral high ground is
:35:14. > :35:18.overcrowded with people who are sort of ready to take offence if they
:35:19. > :35:22.don't agree with you. Obviously we have social restraints about
:35:23. > :35:29.incitement to racial hatred, sexual objectification of women,
:35:30. > :35:32.xenophobia... But if I say Germany instead of chairperson, someone
:35:33. > :35:37.leaps down my throat. Trivialising it a bit? I'm not, the issue has
:35:38. > :35:44.become trivialised by those who object to the fact that the idea
:35:45. > :35:49.that a wall. For example is somehow offensive to me. I wish I got more
:35:50. > :35:55.wolf whistles! All, Don Foster doesn't like that, it's great, I can
:35:56. > :35:59.see the expressions. Stephen in a second. I find it funny that someone
:36:00. > :36:03.says we have social restraints which stop object occasion of women and
:36:04. > :36:11.xenophobia and they write for the Daily Mail! I absolutely loathe that
:36:12. > :36:16.argument, it's a cheap, get out of jail card. It's true. It may be but
:36:17. > :36:19.you did nude the strength of your argument by saying I'll batter her
:36:20. > :36:23.over the head with one of the newspapers you write for the cause
:36:24. > :36:27.that way I don't have to take such a responsibility for anything else I
:36:28. > :36:31.say. I'm entitled as an individual to have my point of view my point of
:36:32. > :36:37.view is deeply offended by racial hatred, to racism, xenophobia,
:36:38. > :36:41.sexual objectification of women. You are hypocritical. I'm not, you are
:36:42. > :36:47.denying me the power of free-speech on a national television
:36:48. > :36:53.programme... I can hear you. You are sat here lives as a situation of
:36:54. > :36:58.censorship. I can't hear myself think. Stephen, this is the point
:36:59. > :37:04.that was raised, whose truth is it anyway? Exactly, people have truth
:37:05. > :37:09.that they try and base in science, for instance and people take it on
:37:10. > :37:12.faith and there's all these multiple truths, I class a lot of them as
:37:13. > :37:16.untruths myself but how do you compete for space in that way if you
:37:17. > :37:20.get more power to run than the other? That's my opinion, there is
:37:21. > :37:24.no ultimate truth and we should be open to challenge any sacred Kalb
:37:25. > :37:29.numb at how many people hold it and how much it might hurt her feelings
:37:30. > :37:32.if you do challenge. What about Holocaust and iris? Something as
:37:33. > :37:43.ridiculous as that. There are other examples. -- deniers. My only
:37:44. > :37:46.concern, Holocaust Nile is burly sinister in the fact it's
:37:47. > :37:50.conspiratorial nature and if you tell people you can say that they
:37:51. > :37:57.push it underground computer get to know where these people are. Denying
:37:58. > :38:04.reality, something that happened. Religion is denying a reality as
:38:05. > :38:12.well. I am going to collect your jacket. I think a religion is based
:38:13. > :38:18.on faith and we are going to come to that in a minute. Don't worry,
:38:19. > :38:25.Naomi. Faith is not something that can be proven. Faith in God is not
:38:26. > :38:29.something that can be proved and it's a denial of reality, it's an
:38:30. > :38:36.idea. It's man-made and it is a man-made idea. That's a question of
:38:37. > :38:41.opinion. So we can debate it. And we should. It's important that we do.
:38:42. > :38:46.You should be able to sit Moses didn't exist, Abraham didn't exist,
:38:47. > :38:51.Mohamed existed, Jesus existed, we should be able to say that. Gentle
:38:52. > :38:54.man in the jacket. Talking about free speech is an argument but
:38:55. > :38:58.bottom line you shouldn't forget in this country and probably many
:38:59. > :39:04.others in the world, people have died of -- died to preserve the
:39:05. > :39:10.right of free speech. Have they died to provide the right to Richard
:39:11. > :39:13.Tyseley and hatefully inside -- insult someone? It covers a broad
:39:14. > :39:18.spectrum of thing, with free-speech, responsibility, the right to free
:39:19. > :39:22.speech comes a responsibility to use it sensibly.
:39:23. > :39:28.APPLAUSE Stephen, what is sensible? I think
:39:29. > :39:33.free-speech has to cover everything from highbrow philosophy to gutter
:39:34. > :39:39.tumour to insults to fence, the whole thing or it doesn't cover
:39:40. > :39:45.anything, really. Free-speech has to be an absolute, we've had loads of
:39:46. > :39:50.examples, the extreme example, the chair man, chairwoman... But Luke
:39:51. > :39:54.looks plan? Taking away free speech from one person, you take it away
:39:55. > :40:00.from anyone but it also as an individual speaker, it's
:40:01. > :40:09.intellectually lazy to shut people up in order to win the argument. How
:40:10. > :40:16.do you know your ideas are true if you never happened challenged? Do
:40:17. > :40:21.you think it's a good way of testing and pushing and squeezing and going
:40:22. > :40:27.through the scientific test of your own ideas? It's not a good way. It's
:40:28. > :40:31.an affirmation of what you believe, a good way to test what you believe?
:40:32. > :40:35.No, if you have beliefs that are never challenged and you never have
:40:36. > :40:39.to defend them, you can never learn and develop your ideas. You stay
:40:40. > :40:46.stagnant and you become intellectually lazy and there's no
:40:47. > :40:52.proof, a lot of people who call themselves progressives in
:40:53. > :40:58.university, they are the antithesis in my mind to what is progressive.
:40:59. > :41:04.Thank you all very much. I know, many of you still raring to go. We
:41:05. > :41:08.have time, joining the debate this morning.
:41:09. > :41:11.You can join in all this morning's debates by logging
:41:12. > :41:13.on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions then follow the link
:41:14. > :41:16.Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq
:41:17. > :41:19.Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too -
:41:20. > :41:21.Is death easier if you believe in God?
:41:22. > :41:24.And if you'd like to be in the audience at a future show,
:41:25. > :41:26.email audiencetbq@mentorn.tv We're in Peckham in South London on May
:41:27. > :41:28.28th for the final two programmes of this series.
:41:29. > :41:31.There will be the usual live programme in the morning
:41:32. > :41:33.and in the afternoon we're recording a special
:41:34. > :41:39.They say there are two certainties in life and we have already
:41:40. > :41:41.debated one of them, taxes, so now it's time
:41:42. > :41:46.It comes to us all in the end but some people have it
:41:47. > :41:49.much harder than others, they must face the fact they are
:41:50. > :41:56.There's a documentary on this tomorrow night on BBC2
:41:57. > :41:58.called A Time to Live, and this shows people who found
:41:59. > :42:01.a new intensity and joy in living, despite, perhaps because,
:42:02. > :42:08.Academic research suggests facing death is easier for atheists
:42:09. > :42:21.Is death easier if you believe in God?
:42:22. > :42:27.Well, Doctor Elaine Sugden, good morning. How are you? Call offer of
:42:28. > :42:33.talking about dying. A difficult thing to do but very important. --
:42:34. > :42:37.joint author. This is interesting, people with strong faith and
:42:38. > :42:43.atheists have the fewest problems, why would that be? I think the first
:42:44. > :42:48.thing to say is you are absolutely right, death is a great equaliser,
:42:49. > :42:53.we are all going to die, like it or not, we try and put it off and
:42:54. > :42:58.doctors try and put it off, quite rightly. Life is good, we want as
:42:59. > :43:03.much of it as we can but within limits. We get onto the quality of
:43:04. > :43:10.livestock, we don't want to be prolonged so long and people kept
:43:11. > :43:15.alive in frailty and in a way that is not compatible with good life.
:43:16. > :43:22.But to get onto the question of faith, I think it's quite right. --
:43:23. > :43:30.the quality of life. If you firmly believe that God is there and in
:43:31. > :43:37.control and he's got something for you after this life or if you firmly
:43:38. > :43:43.believe that as an atheist, there is no God and that this life is the
:43:44. > :43:49.end, then I think those people who firmly leave can face death probably
:43:50. > :44:01.with more ecumenically., haven't faced death, I do know people,
:44:02. > :44:03.mainly because I am a Christian, who are firmly believing Christians,
:44:04. > :44:10.Bible believing Christians who have put their trust into the form of God
:44:11. > :44:17.that appeared on earth in Jesus Christ and firmly believe that there
:44:18. > :44:23.is another life, we don't know, we believe it's good, after this one.
:44:24. > :44:27.Our people worried that it is not going to be good, there are those
:44:28. > :44:30.worried about judgment? I think maybe these are the people in
:44:31. > :44:37.between, the people who don't know. I think there must always go through
:44:38. > :44:41.your mind what if? Maybe through my mind what if there isn't? Well,
:44:42. > :44:46.that's fine, I wouldn't mind if this was the end. What if there is and I
:44:47. > :44:52.am separated one way or another from those that I love? As well?
:44:53. > :44:55.Separation honours, you never see them again but separation, the
:44:56. > :45:02.concerned but in judgment you may not see each other? Yes, you mention
:45:03. > :45:10.judgment and the Bible clearly talks about a time of judgment after death
:45:11. > :45:13.when we are going to be judged for not necessarily just what we've done
:45:14. > :45:17.in this life but whether we have committed, whether we believe in God
:45:18. > :45:25.and whether we've committed our lives to Jesus Christ. And therefore
:45:26. > :45:32.as he says, after that, with forgiveness and reconciliation with
:45:33. > :45:37.God, and to live with him for ever, we don't know quite what that means.
:45:38. > :45:41.A lot of people have not committed themselves to Jesus Christ and I
:45:42. > :45:46.think, you have, Jacqueline. Let me just tell everyone, you are a
:45:47. > :45:49.palette of cancer care patient, thank you for coming in. What are
:45:50. > :46:00.your thoughts on facing death and where do you get your strength from?
:46:01. > :46:06.I've been a lifelong Catholic, and in that time I've ignored God, I've
:46:07. > :46:10.rejected him and I've taken him for granted. Over the years, my
:46:11. > :46:14.experience has been that he's loved me more and more and enriched my
:46:15. > :46:19.life more and more. For many years I've been carried on the blanket of
:46:20. > :46:28.love and prayer by a lot of people, many of whom I don't know. In
:46:29. > :46:32.September 2014 I became very ill and it turned out I had an unusual over
:46:33. > :46:40.area and cancer had tangled itself with my bowel and stuck itself to my
:46:41. > :46:44.blush at the -- bladder. Because everything was blocked by was in
:46:45. > :46:48.imminent danger of death. I reached the point of being in imminent
:46:49. > :46:52.danger of death about half a dozen times over the last two years and
:46:53. > :47:03.nine months, and it's quite a scary place to go. But that blanket of
:47:04. > :47:11.love and prior strengthened and uplifted me in the darkest times --
:47:12. > :47:15.blanket of love and prayer. Far from being afraid of dying, as those
:47:16. > :47:22.times when it became most imminent, I felt a jolly and almost an
:47:23. > :47:27.eagerness to go. That was mitigated by the sadness of leaving those that
:47:28. > :47:39.I loved because I knew that I'd be cared for. I am convinced that there
:47:40. > :47:42.is a God. A great, good, powerful God who loves us beyond all telling,
:47:43. > :47:46.loves everyone of us. APPLAUSE
:47:47. > :47:56.And nothing can separate us from that love, but we have free will, we
:47:57. > :48:01.can choose to reject that love. Can I ask you, do you think some of the
:48:02. > :48:07.atheists in the audience or watching at home are in for a pleasant
:48:08. > :48:13.surprise? If I'm totally wrong and there is nothing but an endless
:48:14. > :48:16.sleep beyond death, then I would be happy with that. There have been
:48:17. > :48:22.times in my life when I would have committed suicide if I'd thought
:48:23. > :48:28.that, simply to get to that. Not existing, just like we didn't before
:48:29. > :48:33.we were born? There would be no painful suffering, no injustice, no
:48:34. > :48:38.war. Is I am right, all the people who do not believe in God, and that
:48:39. > :48:43.is a gift, faith is a gift from God. It is not something we choose. We
:48:44. > :48:49.can act for it and pray for it but it is a free gift. But for those who
:48:50. > :48:51.have no faith, I hope they're going to get a wonderful surprise.
:48:52. > :49:01.APPLAUSE Thank you very much.
:49:02. > :49:05.Stephen, you blog is The Godless Spellchecker, maybe when you are
:49:06. > :49:11.lying there and the clock is ticking you will be The Godly Spellchecker.
:49:12. > :49:18.That was inspiring. Thank you for calling on me to follow that! It is
:49:19. > :49:21.possible. Death makes you behave in a rational ways, certainly the fear
:49:22. > :49:26.of death. It would not necessarily indicate any truth in the claims.
:49:27. > :49:30.When you ask if God makes death easier, we ask this because God is
:49:31. > :49:34.linked to the afterlife. I don't think you are facing death in that
:49:35. > :49:38.sense, you are pretending it is not happening, you are pretending the
:49:39. > :49:42.lights go off, you are reawakening and you can speak to your grandma
:49:43. > :49:47.and play with your childhood pets. Sorry to be pessimistic but if you
:49:48. > :49:51.know there is an end point where you are facing oblivion, you might put
:49:52. > :49:55.interesting things, while you still have time. I think there is still
:49:56. > :49:59.that anyway because of the separation between this life and the
:50:00. > :50:05.afterlife. Death teaches you about life, death teaches you to live. It
:50:06. > :50:11.is very different... What if you have a crisis of faith when you are
:50:12. > :50:22.on your deathbed and wonder if you have wasted your life?
:50:23. > :50:26.There is nothing wrong with that, when big things happen, be it sad,
:50:27. > :50:29.like a death, or a marriage or a birth, we wonder what we should do.
:50:30. > :50:34.That is a good thing, it is not a sad thing. Surely... Surely it is
:50:35. > :50:40.better to put -- to do that sooner rather than later. Jacqueline? On
:50:41. > :50:43.one particular occasion I was so close to death that the chief
:50:44. > :50:46.surgeon stood at the end of my bed at half past 12 at night and said to
:50:47. > :50:53.my daughter, if she survives until morning, we will operate at seven
:50:54. > :51:00.o'clock. When you are that close to death your mind is very focused and
:51:01. > :51:06.you are not being deluded or distracted by other things. You are
:51:07. > :51:13.simply looking at the matter of death. When you survive something
:51:14. > :51:18.like that, life becomes very, very precious and you want to make the
:51:19. > :51:22.absolute best of it. But make no mistake, death is a scary place to
:51:23. > :51:33.go and very often is accompanied by intense pain. I have seen several
:51:34. > :51:39.people die over my lifetime. Several of those deaths were quiet, peaceful
:51:40. > :51:49.and of great consolation. Two at least were horrendous. I firmly
:51:50. > :51:57.believe that either a conviction of no faith at all or an absolute
:51:58. > :52:04.conviction of the love of God gives great strength at the moment of
:52:05. > :52:07.death. Right in front of you is Carrie from the British Unionist
:52:08. > :52:13.Association, a Pastoral care trainer. Do you think there is a
:52:14. > :52:18.default position from some that you need to have a deathbed conversion,
:52:19. > :52:24.have you seen that? Have you seen people in that situation who have
:52:25. > :52:29.been given press or offered sacraments who really did not want
:52:30. > :52:32.that? That's not right in front of you is Carrie from the British
:52:33. > :52:38.Humanist Association. I totally respect where you are coming from,
:52:39. > :52:41.those who have had faith in life will have faith in their death.
:52:42. > :52:46.Those who believe it is the one life we have will be working through our
:52:47. > :52:51.lives to make sure we fulfil it to the fullest we can to lead a good
:52:52. > :52:56.life and that death is just a conclusion of that and we enter.
:52:57. > :53:00.Where I have found it difficult is where I have seen faith brought to
:53:01. > :53:05.people as if it is something they should have to have a conversion,
:53:06. > :53:08.where it can be the best irrelevant and at worst very intrusive and
:53:09. > :53:13.really quite offensive when somebody actually has their own belief
:53:14. > :53:20.system, like I certainly have, that this is my life and I want to live
:53:21. > :53:25.it to the fullest and to help people and I will end my life in this way
:53:26. > :53:32.as well. My reflections will be upon what I hope will be life was spent.
:53:33. > :53:36.APPLAUSE Faiza? Just reflecting on this, my
:53:37. > :53:41.mother, sadly, passed away a couple of months ago. She was of the Muslim
:53:42. > :53:44.faith, it really helped her, she came close to death several times
:53:45. > :53:49.and it gave her strength in those times. For those of us dealing with
:53:50. > :53:53.people that die and how health Dann faith helps that those times, I am
:53:54. > :53:58.really jealous of those that definitely believe she is in heaven.
:53:59. > :54:04.I have a lot of questions. When you know it, when you really believe
:54:05. > :54:06.that they are somewhat better, I am sure it helps. How can it not?
:54:07. > :54:09.APPLAUSE My mum passed away a few years ago
:54:10. > :54:14.and when I think about her and look to hurt for guidance I look up, the
:54:15. > :54:19.idea was I don't look down, I look to a place where I think she will
:54:20. > :54:24.be. But her memories survive. Her memories around me and I suffuse my
:54:25. > :54:27.children with her wisdom, I repeat the things that she said to me, I
:54:28. > :54:32.want them to be inspired by the things that she did. I am Jewish, I
:54:33. > :54:45.have a very firm belief in God, the Jewish view is that this world is
:54:46. > :54:48.almost a waiting room for the world to come. Not to say that all the
:54:49. > :54:50.things you say are not true, we should live a fulfilling life, be
:54:51. > :54:53.good and kind for being in the moment, but there might be something
:54:54. > :54:56.in the world to come that will reflect that. But there is no proof,
:54:57. > :54:58.none of us can say whether that lady who spoke so beautifully and
:54:59. > :55:00.courageously is right or that you are right. Faith and proofs are
:55:01. > :55:03.mutually exclusive, we have to follow what is in our hearts and I
:55:04. > :55:10.could not survive without my Jewish faith because of that. Not to be
:55:11. > :55:15.disrespectful, but the lady over there said it is not a delusion.
:55:16. > :55:21.Frankly, it is. I am sorry but to think that the absence of life in
:55:22. > :55:26.your body means that you are going to go off into some other world and
:55:27. > :55:30.live there, it can be proven, just because it can be disproven neither
:55:31. > :55:37.does not mean we should believe it. Also what the lady was just saying
:55:38. > :55:40.then, you have this expectation that you are going somewhere else and I
:55:41. > :55:45.think was Richard Dawkins who said that this allows people to sort
:55:46. > :55:48.of... Oh, well, this life does not matter and we don't have to care
:55:49. > :55:54.about the embarrassment, when really we should, we should protect our
:55:55. > :55:58.planet. I did not say that. I know you did not specifically say that
:55:59. > :56:01.but that argument is made. Some people are of that opinion but many
:56:02. > :56:06.people of faith would say that of course we had to care for each other
:56:07. > :56:12.and the environment. Hang on a second, allow me to come to Elaine.
:56:13. > :56:19.People of faith generally care enormously about people in this
:56:20. > :56:24.society. What if you do not... Sorry, Elaine, what if you do not
:56:25. > :56:30.have Jesus Christ, you have not found Jesus Christ? Should you be
:56:31. > :56:36.worried? I think that is something for us all to consider, what is our
:56:37. > :56:41.faith, what does it mean? Who is God? We need to look into that. We
:56:42. > :56:47.are all intelligent people and can do that. The Christian faith is
:56:48. > :56:51.simple. But I think also we are missing something here because we
:56:52. > :56:54.need to be looking... We have started talking about people who had
:56:55. > :56:59.died and peoples memories and whether it is a good death whether
:57:00. > :57:03.there is pain. Our book was really about talking about dying, we need
:57:04. > :57:07.to talk about faith, yes, but we also need to talk about people's
:57:08. > :57:12.fulfilment of their lives, they might be going to die at 45 but have
:57:13. > :57:18.they fulfilled their lives? What have they done? Can they look back
:57:19. > :57:22.and feel good about their life, have they finished it? Have they had all
:57:23. > :57:27.the medicine they should have, is it time to say...? Is everyone going to
:57:28. > :57:33.be OK that people leave behind? That is what my father was worried about.
:57:34. > :57:39.His last words were... I said I love you, dad. He said, and I love all of
:57:40. > :57:43.you. I had a patient who died in her 40s and she made sure that her child
:57:44. > :57:47.and her husband could run the house on their own. They did nothing
:57:48. > :57:56.before. She put all her energies of the rest of her life into that. We
:57:57. > :58:00.need to talk about it. People shut off, very rarely do people talk
:58:01. > :58:06.about death. We need to, we need to talk about what we would want as if
:58:07. > :58:09.we were facing death. Would we want to be resuscitating, would we want
:58:10. > :58:16.to be kept alive if we had a bad/? We can do that, it is all in place.
:58:17. > :58:21.-- if we had a bad stroke? Faith is a part of it, as a Christian it is
:58:22. > :58:25.an enormous part of my life... And should we have the ability to be and
:58:26. > :58:29.the law to be in place to allow us to slip away is another huge debate?
:58:30. > :58:35.With seconds of the programme left, we do not have time to go into. But
:58:36. > :58:39.on another occasion we will, and on previous occasions we have. Thank
:58:40. > :58:40.you for your brilliant contribution, Jacqueline. Thank you very much
:58:41. > :58:41.indeed. As always, the debates will continue
:58:42. > :58:43.online and on Twitter. We're back from Salford next Sunday
:58:44. > :58:46.for a special on globalisation, is it making the world
:58:47. > :58:48.a better place? But for now, it's goodbye
:58:49. > :58:52.and have a great Sunday.