Episode 19

:00:09. > :00:16.Today on The Big Questions, privatisation and the NHS, racism

:00:17. > :00:29.against whites, and did religion or evolution give us morals?

:00:30. > :00:36.Good morning. I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to the big question is, we

:00:37. > :00:44.are live from the Harris Academy, Peckham, south London. Welcome

:00:45. > :00:50.everybody to The Big Questions. This week we have seen the National

:00:51. > :00:55.Health Service at its best, tackling the dreadful aftermath of the

:00:56. > :00:59.Manchester bombing. Politicians and voters from every party heaped

:01:00. > :01:04.praise on the ambulance workers, paramedics, doctors and nurses for

:01:05. > :01:08.their unstinting response to the tragedy. But with the election

:01:09. > :01:13.campaign resuming, the growing demands of the NHS of an ageing

:01:14. > :01:17.population and how to pay for it, once again political football. While

:01:18. > :01:22.all sides broadly agreed the NHS should remain free to users, there

:01:23. > :01:26.is a divide over whether using the private sector to run hospitals, GP

:01:27. > :01:32.surgeries, provides that all services like Lena Ring, catering,

:01:33. > :01:39.physiotherapy, helps or undermines the health care system. Is the

:01:40. > :01:44.health care system helping the NHS? It is like sacrilege to a lot of

:01:45. > :01:48.people, any private involvement seems to decry and abuse the very

:01:49. > :01:53.principle of something we hold so dear. The bond between the British

:01:54. > :01:57.people and the NHS is as strong as ever, as events in the last few days

:01:58. > :02:06.have shown. What NHS staff did over the last few days is genuinely

:02:07. > :02:10.moving to people... Both efficiently and compassionately they have

:02:11. > :02:14.responded. But the broad issue about why people are so fond of the NHS is

:02:15. > :02:18.its founding principle, free at the point of delivery. If we can put

:02:19. > :02:22.that aside, everybody is agreed that is the right thing, that is the view

:02:23. > :02:26.overwhelmingly of the British people, there is then a discussion

:02:27. > :02:30.about, do you have to have everything publicly provided as part

:02:31. > :02:39.of that deal? The answer is that since the NHS was founded in 1948,

:02:40. > :02:41.from GPs, who have been independent contractors to the NHS since that

:02:42. > :02:46.start point, through all the years that we have been, the NHS has used

:02:47. > :02:49.the independent sector and charitable sector significantly in

:02:50. > :02:54.hospice care and so on, and if you ask people who use those services,

:02:55. > :02:59.do you mind who runs the service as long as it is good care and good

:03:00. > :03:02.value for money, both of those are very important, then overwhelmingly

:03:03. > :03:06.they don't mind whether it is publicly provided or privately

:03:07. > :03:11.provided service. People worry about the direction of travel when they

:03:12. > :03:14.see what has happened to other industries, utilities, telecoms,

:03:15. > :03:19.railways, there are those people who think, there are strong arguments on

:03:20. > :03:22.both sides, but there are those people who think it has been a

:03:23. > :03:27.downhill trend and are worried we might move to an American system,

:03:28. > :03:30.which most people dread. I think most people would dread the American

:03:31. > :03:34.system but the key point there is care is not free at the point of

:03:35. > :03:38.delivery so people can find themselves losing all their income,

:03:39. > :03:42.if they have any income. There is a system for the very poor but it is

:03:43. > :03:49.regarded as a second-rate service. The founding principles of the NHS

:03:50. > :03:51.established in 48 is we should all be treated the same, free at the

:03:52. > :03:55.point of need. I don't see that being undermined by the fact that

:03:56. > :03:59.you have to use an independent sector hospital. There was an

:04:00. > :04:04.article in the Telegraph saying that one GP surgery, you can wait a long

:04:05. > :04:07.time perhaps to see your GP, but in the same surgery there is a private

:04:08. > :04:14.practitioner, a range of them, and you can see them now for ?39. People

:04:15. > :04:20.are worried that it is creeping. But, if it works, Owen Jones, if it

:04:21. > :04:27.provides some flexibility to the NHS, to what some people see as a

:04:28. > :04:32.great, immobile monolith, isn't it a good thing? The NHS should be run on

:04:33. > :04:38.the basis of patient need, not on the basis of profit for profiteering

:04:39. > :04:42.company. But if it works? It doesn't, the direction of travel has

:04:43. > :04:46.been privatisation but because we have this public model, as one

:04:47. > :04:51.study, the Commonwealth fund, showed in 2014, we come top of the health

:04:52. > :04:55.system is the analysed, the US system at the bottom. What has

:04:56. > :04:59.privatisation meant in practice? The health service has become more

:05:00. > :05:02.inefficient because you need extra layers of bureaucracy and management

:05:03. > :05:06.for all of the complex Private contract. The amount we spend on

:05:07. > :05:11.management of bureaucracy since we started this has gone from 5% to

:05:12. > :05:20.15%, double that in America where they have that system. Second thing,

:05:21. > :05:26.the NHS making money... It is people making a living? But should they do

:05:27. > :05:30.it for the health service, a basic service we provide on to look after

:05:31. > :05:33.our help? To make money they cut costs by cutting salaries and

:05:34. > :05:37.undermining terms and conditions of the courageous workers that you talk

:05:38. > :05:41.about. I will come back to you because there are a couple of points

:05:42. > :05:46.in there and it would be good for Niall to take them one at a time.

:05:47. > :05:52.The bureaucracy? Bar too much bureaucracy in the private sector?

:05:53. > :05:56.He is not talking about bureaucracy in the private sector... For

:05:57. > :06:00.overseeing the Private contract. With any form of contracting system

:06:01. > :06:03.you do need to have people doing contracts and all the rest of it.

:06:04. > :06:07.You also need to have people held to account at local level for how well

:06:08. > :06:12.they are doing, which applies to public sector and private sector

:06:13. > :06:16.organisations, or indeed if you have charities who are running these

:06:17. > :06:19.particular services, so something at local level holds people to account

:06:20. > :06:23.for how well they are doing I think is a cost you have to pay but

:06:24. > :06:28.actually our administrative costs as a health care system are amongst the

:06:29. > :06:31.lowest in the world, it is one of the reason the Commonwealth study

:06:32. > :06:36.found as it did. I'm not saying public sector bad, private sector

:06:37. > :06:40.good. Neither should you say it the other way round. There are

:06:41. > :06:46.first-class private sector services that are serving the NHS at this

:06:47. > :06:50.moment. But the idea all staff are utterly obsessed with profits,

:06:51. > :06:54.providing bad care, trying to mess with the cost all the time, there is

:06:55. > :06:59.no evidence to support that. Look at hip replacements, eight out of the

:07:00. > :07:02.top ten providers are private sector, there are also fabulous

:07:03. > :07:14.public sector providers. Let's not get hung up. Clive Peedell, has the

:07:15. > :07:16.private sector, by means of competition and concentrating the

:07:17. > :07:22.mind, improved in any way the efficiency of the public sector NHS?

:07:23. > :07:25.Unfortunately not, we have got a fixed pot of money and the whole

:07:26. > :07:28.argument about bringing the private sector in, the only way it would be

:07:29. > :07:32.more efficient is to have a market system, that is the ideology of how

:07:33. > :07:38.the private sector works. Markets don't work well enough, the

:07:39. > :07:41.transaction costs are huge, multiple billions of pounds per year. You

:07:42. > :07:46.need to have choice, excess capacity in the system, so you have all of

:07:47. > :07:50.these independent sector treatment centres poaching NHS staff from NHS

:07:51. > :07:55.hospitals. We already have a shortage of staff, a ?3 billion

:07:56. > :07:59.agency Bill, that is making it worse, and with Brexit coming up

:08:00. > :08:03.along with EU workers leaving, it is a huge problem and destabilises

:08:04. > :08:13.local help economies. Money follows the patient so those NHS hospitals

:08:14. > :08:16.that are already massively in debt, 50% of NHS trusts are in the red,

:08:17. > :08:18.they are losing income and when you lose income you lose staff, and I

:08:19. > :08:20.called it dominoes, departments start to close and it is an utter

:08:21. > :08:28.disaster. APPLAUSE.

:08:29. > :08:31.An utter disaster, Kate Andrews? One of the biggest tricks the NHS

:08:32. > :08:35.campaigners have pulled over the eyes of the British people is the

:08:36. > :08:38.idea that there are only two systems in the world, the NHS system and the

:08:39. > :08:43.US system. The idea that market access to health care does not work

:08:44. > :08:47.around the world is completely debunked. The US is the only system

:08:48. > :08:51.that does not offer universal access to health care but contrary to being

:08:52. > :08:59.the envy of the world, no other developed country has adopted the

:09:00. > :09:02.NHS. Look at Germany, Belgium, Australia, New Zealand... We have

:09:03. > :09:07.the gold standard in this country. You don't, you tend to rank in the

:09:08. > :09:12.bottom third. I would mention the Commonwealth fund report, I love the

:09:13. > :09:16.Guardian's summing up of it, it looks that input, how active is the

:09:17. > :09:21.system at kicking boxes. It does not look at outcomes. On the one

:09:22. > :09:27.question where the Commonwealth Fund and other outcomes, the NHS was ten

:09:28. > :09:31.out of 11. The Guardian said without irony that the only black mark

:09:32. > :09:37.against the NHS was its poor record of keeping people alive. This is not

:09:38. > :09:41.a system built with 2017. My encouragement to the British people

:09:42. > :09:46.would not be to be frightened by the word privatisation but to look at

:09:47. > :09:48.countries we would not consider tap private systems, Switzerland,

:09:49. > :09:56.Germany, universal access to health care... How much further would you

:09:57. > :09:58.go down this road? I am a fan of the insurance Systems proliferated

:09:59. > :10:02.throughout Europe. The Government make sure everybody has access

:10:03. > :10:06.universally to health care, all of the bills are paid for through a

:10:07. > :10:09.voucher system or charities but the Government funds completely your

:10:10. > :10:13.access to health care. But the private sector runs it so it tends

:10:14. > :10:17.to be more efficient, gets much better outcomes. Thousands upon

:10:18. > :10:21.thousands of lives are saved every year in the Netherlands, Germany,

:10:22. > :10:24.Belgium, especially when it comes to serious things like cancer and heart

:10:25. > :10:31.attacks. This is where we need to be focusing. On cancer, this always

:10:32. > :10:37.comes up as a stick to beat the NHS but they are not comparing like and

:10:38. > :10:41.like. In the US, for example... Again, the US. OK, other countries.

:10:42. > :10:46.We have a five-year survival rate, that is how we define how many

:10:47. > :10:50.people survive cancer. In other countries they look at pre-cancers

:10:51. > :10:54.which don't turn out to be cancers. If you lump those into the

:10:55. > :10:59.statistics, it looks like you have a better survival rate, so it is not

:11:00. > :11:04.comparing like the like. A lot of the comparisons are comparing

:11:05. > :11:08.like-for-like. It has looked at how quickly you can get things like

:11:09. > :11:13.access to surgery to remove tumours. All we hear from the NHS campaigners

:11:14. > :11:17.is, USA, USA, fear mongering. We need to talk about the rest of

:11:18. > :11:22.Europe where they are doing better. Clive, you are an oncologist? I

:11:23. > :11:24.would not argue that cancer outcomes are not better in some of the

:11:25. > :11:33.countries you mentioned but Germany and France spend more in the same

:11:34. > :11:39.GDP per year, and that is cumulative. One report said the NHS

:11:40. > :11:43.was underfunded by 257 billion over a 25 year period. We just about

:11:44. > :11:48.Cordoba that when Labour increased spending and then there was the

:11:49. > :11:52.financial crash so we have fall back below, so you can compare models all

:11:53. > :11:54.you like but they are more expensive. The public wants a

:11:55. > :12:02.single-payer system so you cannot have a private sector deliberate NHS

:12:03. > :12:09.care. By all means a separate private sector but not competing

:12:10. > :12:13.against the NHS, it is a disaster. The comparing of different health

:12:14. > :12:15.care systems is very complex but the answer is the NHS has been

:12:16. > :12:21.underfunded. APPLAUSE.

:12:22. > :12:26.It isn't fair to compare it. Again, I go to this thing off, Private

:12:27. > :12:30.good, public bad. There is no evidence to support either of those.

:12:31. > :12:34.If something is properly funded and has good leadership and the right

:12:35. > :12:38.values within that, and the idea that all private sector health care

:12:39. > :12:42.organisations don't have those things is nonsense, so the answer is

:12:43. > :12:46.we have a very good health care system. It would be a lot better if

:12:47. > :12:54.it was better funded, and it needs that. If it were to be better funded

:12:55. > :12:57.and have enough money, would private sector involvement be in any way,

:12:58. > :13:02.shape or form necessary? Yes, and you could demonstrate flat looking

:13:03. > :13:06.at the 2000 when getting access was an issue and independent treatment

:13:07. > :13:13.centres shook up the NHS and made it more... And got people care that

:13:14. > :13:18.they would not have got otherwise. If it was spent on the NHS, we would

:13:19. > :13:22.not have needed them. It is a dangerous road to go down. I was in

:13:23. > :13:26.a private hospital when I was younger that was funded by the NHS

:13:27. > :13:29.and they spent thousands of thousands of pounds every week

:13:30. > :13:32.keeping me in there and what was the motivation for this hospital getting

:13:33. > :13:38.the better? We had to get the MP involved because my father felt they

:13:39. > :13:43.were drugging me to keep me in the hospital. When the MP got involved

:13:44. > :13:47.to get me a good care plan, funnily enough a few weeks later I was

:13:48. > :13:54.released, so I think privatisation is massively risky. There is bad

:13:55. > :14:02.practice everywhere, surely? Privatisation has an efficiency role

:14:03. > :14:04.to play in the NHS but the NHS as it stands means in principle private

:14:05. > :14:13.organisations coexist with public owned bodies to allow private

:14:14. > :14:17.organisations to run the NHS would bring about trickle-down economics.

:14:18. > :14:23.What it will do, it will drip down and just make a mess of the whole

:14:24. > :14:27.thing. Specifically, it will allow the roses that grew from the

:14:28. > :14:40.concrete with damaged petals, it would allow them to wear out, we do

:14:41. > :14:44.not want, at the centre of market and Public organisations looked at

:14:45. > :14:46.the link between competition and improvement in health care and what

:14:47. > :14:52.they found was a negative relationship between competition and

:14:53. > :14:54.quality of health care. Who thinks there is a positive relationship

:14:55. > :15:02.between competition and positive health care? I know you do, Kate! I

:15:03. > :15:05.just wonder if anyone in the audience, because I did see some

:15:06. > :15:11.people nodding when you were making your point.

:15:12. > :15:20.I have strong thoughts, I agreed with our women that the NHS needs to

:15:21. > :15:26.be publicly owned and publicly delivered. And if you follow the

:15:27. > :15:33.money trail, you say, where does the profit goes, who gives the money to

:15:34. > :15:38.shareholders? We are all shareholders in the NHS and it

:15:39. > :15:45.should stay within the NHS. And it is a unique organisation, its

:15:46. > :15:47.mission is unique. Its mission is pure and that actually excellent

:15:48. > :15:54.service delivery and clinical outcomes. It is not about making a

:15:55. > :16:01.profit. The important thing is service delivery. A private company

:16:02. > :16:04.inevitably has to have a profit, so service delivery because profit and

:16:05. > :16:11.is measured on the money it makes. And we saw in the other government

:16:12. > :16:18.privatisation issues such as welfare to work, telecoms, the Royal Mail,

:16:19. > :16:21.we have seen cherry picking. Private organisations will say there are

:16:22. > :16:28.happy to have this contract because it is measurable and profitable, am

:16:29. > :16:30.not keen on this bit. Is that not inevitable that some reason --

:16:31. > :16:37.treatments will be more profitable than others? We already have a

:16:38. > :16:42.terrible system of rationing on the NHS and Russians more than almost

:16:43. > :16:46.any country throughout Europe. It is not the private sector holding back

:16:47. > :16:53.access to treatment, it is the NHS. The NHS is not rationing treatment,

:16:54. > :16:58.the Government is rationing money. By completely take your point about

:16:59. > :17:02.the goal of the NHS to be to provide immaculate health care, what happens

:17:03. > :17:06.when that goal is not achieved? The NHS is in a state of perpetual

:17:07. > :17:09.crisis and people are waking up to the idea that people in France and

:17:10. > :17:14.Germany and Switzerland get better treatment and it does not seem like

:17:15. > :17:20.a scary privatised system. And there might be an area of compromise. I

:17:21. > :17:25.opened the idea of putting 1%, to present a more GDP towards health

:17:26. > :17:28.care is but that is secondary to the fact the system is failing. It is in

:17:29. > :17:36.the bottom third of these areas and it needs reform. Daniel has got the

:17:37. > :17:42.finances swelling through this desperate to head. You know the

:17:43. > :17:49.finances inside out -- Daniel has got the finances of this in his

:17:50. > :17:54.head. Will there ever be enough money for our ever expanding needs

:17:55. > :17:58.and ageing society? Yes, I believe it is possible to do it with a

:17:59. > :18:04.publicly funded system, but I do think there has to be a wake-up call

:18:05. > :18:09.among all the political parties. Where'd you get the money from? That

:18:10. > :18:13.is a matter for society to decide but if you believe in a free at the

:18:14. > :18:18.point of delivery service, it has to come from taxation. All our taxes or

:18:19. > :18:23.just those at the top? That is up to the Government to decide. No, it is

:18:24. > :18:29.up to you! No, it is not, thankfully! The system is

:18:30. > :18:33.underfunded, we are going to face over the next 20 years a doubling in

:18:34. > :18:38.the number of elderly people over 85, that means the demand that will

:18:39. > :18:41.hit the system, however it is organised, is going to be very

:18:42. > :18:44.substantial and will involve changing the way that we pay

:18:45. > :18:48.organisations and changing the way we organise services and that in a

:18:49. > :18:54.way is the big question we are not really dealing with. Owen. Given the

:18:55. > :18:58.NHS has gone through the longer squeezing since it was founded and

:18:59. > :19:03.we spend less on the NHS than almost any industrialised country and given

:19:04. > :19:09.this costs of social care, the outcomes are miraculous. The issue

:19:10. > :19:14.is dogma. The people who do not like the NHS do not like it because it is

:19:15. > :19:18.an embarrassment to an ideology dominating the Society of the last

:19:19. > :19:23.generation which has put profits, people who want to privatise it. NHS

:19:24. > :19:28.puts people's needs before profit in a society where increasingly it is

:19:29. > :19:32.the other way round. And if it works in the NHS and you see the

:19:33. > :19:35.privatisation around railways and utilities and the financial

:19:36. > :19:37.collapse, this idea the private sector is good and the public sector

:19:38. > :19:43.is bad, has been increasingly left in ruins and the NHS shows but

:19:44. > :19:49.people's needs before profit, people are proud of it and it delivers

:19:50. > :19:55.first-class. Adam Bland indeed the last word on this. We have had some

:19:56. > :19:59.very interesting contributions -- I'm giving you the last word on

:20:00. > :20:05.this. You have to acknowledge across the political spectrum, the majority

:20:06. > :20:12.people support the NHS and the majority just wanted to work. In

:20:13. > :20:16.good faith. Do you think your colleagues should just work in the

:20:17. > :20:21.NHS and ditch their private work? The key thing to address the problem

:20:22. > :20:24.is to understand health care problem can stimulate economic growth

:20:25. > :20:29.because it keeps people healthy and at work and I work in Middlesbrough,

:20:30. > :20:31.half ?8 billion, a lot of that recirculate around the economy and

:20:32. > :20:37.stimulate the local private businesses so that is a positive

:20:38. > :20:40.this effect on health care and education. Public investment

:20:41. > :20:44.stimulate economic growth and we need to get this in the mystical

:20:45. > :20:50.debate. Get it on the discussion for the next couple of weeks and talk

:20:51. > :20:54.about fiscal multipliers. That encourages economic growth. A

:20:55. > :20:57.thought I had, do you think your colleagues who do private and public

:20:58. > :21:01.work, should they ditch the private work and work in the NHS? I do not

:21:02. > :21:06.have a problem with a separate private sector. Separate is the

:21:07. > :21:11.keyword. Otherwise, you have to have a market within the NHS which is a

:21:12. > :21:13.disaster. People are wealthy enough and they want to take out health

:21:14. > :21:20.insurance and they have employment insurance, there should be a

:21:21. > :21:24.separate private health sector. That takes the pressure of the system. We

:21:25. > :21:28.should not have NHS consultants abusing their private practice which

:21:29. > :21:33.has been happening in the past. It should never be allowed to happen.

:21:34. > :21:41.Fascinating debate! The next is amazing. If you have something to

:21:42. > :21:44.say, log onto... Joining the discussion online and contribute on

:21:45. > :21:57.Twitter. We also debating this morning in pack... -- in Peckham.

:21:58. > :22:04.Some other ideas of what she may have about the programme. There has

:22:05. > :22:10.been an ongoing row in the papers and social media about a new net

:22:11. > :22:18.books series based on an earlier comedy film which satirised the

:22:19. > :22:23.experience of black students at a predominantly white Ivy League

:22:24. > :22:32.college. A scene which shows blacking students blacking up has

:22:33. > :22:36.been called racist to white people. But can white people be the victims

:22:37. > :22:42.of racism? Many people will say of course they can, but there are

:22:43. > :22:47.interesting arguments as to why they cannot. We are about to explore

:22:48. > :23:04.them. Esther, it is great to see you back. I do not know if you saw tHREE

:23:05. > :23:14.gIRLS, a powerful drama. One comment was that a Pakistani gang saw these

:23:15. > :23:20.white girls as third class citizens. Is that racism? No, it is not. That

:23:21. > :23:24.situation was very complex. There were Rachel Di mentions, but the

:23:25. > :23:29.basis of the oppression of those young girls was based on bow ball

:23:30. > :23:33.mobility in terms of their sex and gender and in particular their

:23:34. > :23:38.social class. If we are linking back to racism, it denies the fact of

:23:39. > :23:46.what racism really is, racism is a global system of oppression and

:23:47. > :23:51.exploitation that is meted out to people who historically have not

:23:52. > :23:56.been racialised as white. That is what racism is and it is not helpful

:23:57. > :24:01.Netflix to just focus on individual cases. What happens in Rotherham was

:24:02. > :24:13.awful, it was terrible and it was abuse. But it was not based on race.

:24:14. > :24:21.A individual cases not... Scientists say that pigmentation is a colour

:24:22. > :24:28.spectrum, there are no definite boundaries. So some will ask where

:24:29. > :24:33.on the spectrum do you stop being a potential victim of racism? In terms

:24:34. > :24:38.of not being a victim of racism, it is those who at any time can benefit

:24:39. > :24:43.from that global system. So if we just reduce it to what is happening

:24:44. > :24:47.in a so-called white working-class population in Britain and we do not

:24:48. > :24:52.look at the fact of if somebody from that community moves, their status

:24:53. > :24:57.and their sense of power and privilege will also change. So that

:24:58. > :25:04.is what we need to focus on. So we are talking about a system of racism

:25:05. > :25:08.and inequality, what is called white supremacy, that is about defending

:25:09. > :25:14.this system of power, race and privilege. In particular, well. That

:25:15. > :25:19.determines how we relate as individuals. So the interpersonal

:25:20. > :25:26.aspects and individualised aspects of racism, you cannot divorce it

:25:27. > :25:31.from the global systems of who is classified as black and white. And

:25:32. > :25:41.black people be racist towards Polish people? No. Racism and racial

:25:42. > :25:46.discrimination are two different things and it is about who has the

:25:47. > :25:50.power to define and white people have redefined racism. What has

:25:51. > :25:56.happened to Polish people is based on their national identity, not

:25:57. > :26:01.their race. Betty King of Jeremy Corbyn, do you think white people

:26:02. > :26:04.can be victims of racism? Yes, everybody can white people had been

:26:05. > :26:13.and they are still victims of racism. It is revenge. Black people

:26:14. > :26:18.are discriminated against, Pakistani people are discriminated against. It

:26:19. > :26:23.is almost like they need revenge on what was done to them. I think in

:26:24. > :26:29.this time we are in all over the world, people are calling for

:26:30. > :26:31.equality. When the opportunity arises, white people can be

:26:32. > :26:39.discriminated against, I do believe that. What about Irish people?

:26:40. > :26:45.First, but I find that statement is... I think that statement is

:26:46. > :26:50.peculiar because you are conflating and confusing discriminatory

:26:51. > :26:58.practices based on how people are presented in the world with systemic

:26:59. > :27:03.purchases. Racism is prejudiced. It works in the sense that if you are

:27:04. > :27:09.black, black or rough African ancestry like I am, you know that

:27:10. > :27:12.the system is set against you. If you ask me whether the Irish could

:27:13. > :27:16.beat racially discriminated against, I teach that and the viewers can

:27:17. > :27:28.look at how the Irish became a white. It is called how the Irish

:27:29. > :27:31.became white. I was born in the UK growing up and the Irish, if you put

:27:32. > :27:39.them in another framework, they were a lesser race like the Germans with

:27:40. > :27:43.the master race against the Jews. I teach the Holocaust as a racist

:27:44. > :27:47.incident because of the context, you have a right group pressings and

:27:48. > :27:53.other white group and publicly stating they are an inferior race.

:27:54. > :28:00.But Schindler escaped Nazi Germany by pretending to be a Jewish. It can

:28:01. > :28:06.only work in that context. If the oppressors were white people and

:28:07. > :28:10.they oppressed that black and that person freed some of those people,

:28:11. > :28:15.could he had escaped with them? We should be very careful when we talk

:28:16. > :28:22.about racism versus discriminatory practices because as Esther said,

:28:23. > :28:25.this is systemic. If you have a white person who believes they are

:28:26. > :28:29.racially discriminated against and let's say because they are Polish

:28:30. > :28:33.and they have an accident, if they keep their mouths shut and they

:28:34. > :28:38.different arenas, they will not be discriminated against, they have to

:28:39. > :28:46.speak. We do not, it is the skimmed we are and that legislates against

:28:47. > :28:52.it. -- it is the skin. Huge argument as to whether is a phobia is racism

:28:53. > :28:59.or not. Supposing could be one aside that it is, it is the Pakistani

:29:00. > :29:07.attitude towards Christians, is that racism? Christian Pakistanis

:29:08. > :29:10.suffering from racism if criticism of those who are dear to believe

:29:11. > :29:20.systems, surely that is comparable? It is comparable if you look at it

:29:21. > :29:24.as discriminatory practices and how people feel as human beings if they

:29:25. > :29:27.are discriminated against, but the framework is religion, that is what

:29:28. > :29:42.that is about. Like what is happening in Nigeria... But it is

:29:43. > :29:46.othering? That is sociology 101, anybody who doesn't really

:29:47. > :29:49.appreciate that isn't going to understand how it is set up and

:29:50. > :29:53.structured systemically. Of course you could look at people, let's say

:29:54. > :29:56.for instant in Nigeria where you have Christians and Muslims killing

:29:57. > :30:01.each other every day, but that cannot be racist, that is premised

:30:02. > :30:09.on religion. This is interesting, isn't it? It's all right, people

:30:10. > :30:17.usually get stunned when I start... ! Some people at home will be

:30:18. > :30:20.saying, well, racism is racism, I've had rate is against me. You have

:30:21. > :30:27.explained your point. Gentleman in the white shirt? You cannot be

:30:28. > :30:35.racist against Jews in Britain, for example. As a white man, if a person

:30:36. > :30:38.is racist to me, and they never have been, if they are, it cannot be

:30:39. > :30:44.taken nearly as seriously as if a white person is racist to a black

:30:45. > :30:48.person. But Jews in Britain, for all sorts of reasons, are

:30:49. > :30:55.disproportionately millionaires as a proportion of the population in the

:30:56. > :31:01.UK. Are they? I think that is true. Does that make them holders of

:31:02. > :31:06.power? Uncomfortable with that. More audience, please. At the back,

:31:07. > :31:10.gentleman with the beard? I think the question in itself is racism,

:31:11. > :31:15.the reason being when you start dividing people on colours, someone

:31:16. > :31:18.is white or black, you start dividing people on religious basis,

:31:19. > :31:23.you start dividing people on their background, that is racism in

:31:24. > :31:28.itself, so the question being whether white people can become

:31:29. > :31:31.victims of racism is racism in itself, because human beings are

:31:32. > :31:38.equal and everyone should be treated equally whether white or black. We

:31:39. > :31:42.need to get beyond race? I think this is the point where we need to

:31:43. > :31:46.look at racism from an intersection or perspective. You cannot reduce

:31:47. > :31:52.racism to ethnicity alone, you have to look at gender, as Esther was

:31:53. > :31:55.saying, nationality, and the other point is, what do we mean by white?

:31:56. > :32:00.Are we talking about the group that is in power? Are we talking about

:32:01. > :32:06.gypsies, travellers, Roma, white women who have converted to Islam?

:32:07. > :32:10.Take the example of Muslim women who are white, who converted to Islam.

:32:11. > :32:14.What has happened with them is that they have been reason racialised,

:32:15. > :32:20.moved from a position of being in power, white, to being seen as not

:32:21. > :32:25.really white, fake white, because they are now being perceived as the

:32:26. > :32:32.other person. Position of power depends on where they live in the

:32:33. > :32:37.Globe, they can be in power, of the powerful elite, can't they? Being

:32:38. > :32:41.white and moving to a religious minority, we're talking about Muslim

:32:42. > :32:45.women and whether she is visibly Muslim, not just about gender at but

:32:46. > :32:51.his ability of religion, that have an impact on has shown that these

:32:52. > :33:03.women face similar racial abuse to women from other minorities... So IS

:33:04. > :33:10.are racist against your CDs because they are a different religious

:33:11. > :33:13.groups? I think you have to distinguish between religious and

:33:14. > :33:22.racism, they are two different things. They do come together... You

:33:23. > :33:26.just conflated them and now you are trying to distance yourself from

:33:27. > :33:29.them. At the end of the day, and estimate this pretty clear, I

:33:30. > :33:32.thought, if you are saying a white woman and braces is lamb and dresses

:33:33. > :33:36.in a particular way and she is on the street and faces abuse, if she

:33:37. > :33:44.puts on her jeans and trainers and a T-shirt... I agree with that. How

:33:45. > :33:51.can it be the same as people who are born with a different hue? If you

:33:52. > :33:54.take the example of minority ethnic women who are Muslim, whether they

:33:55. > :34:00.adopt Islam or a doctor headscarf or not, they cannot get away from that.

:34:01. > :34:05.Can a black person, let me give you an example, before you say what you

:34:06. > :34:11.think is a key point, I cannot wait for that, India may expel Ugandan

:34:12. > :34:17.Asians in that particular period of time, many people would say it was

:34:18. > :34:23.pure and simple racism, was it? Burst of all, it is complicated. The

:34:24. > :34:27.starting point is that we have one term, racism, essentially a crude

:34:28. > :34:35.term for a kaleidoscope of prejudices that go from A to Z, the

:34:36. > :34:40.violent racist, the abuses to racist, but the big monster is

:34:41. > :34:45.institutional racist. Let me after about India mean, was he racist,

:34:46. > :34:51.discriminatory against Ugandan Asians? Discriminatory, yes. He got

:34:52. > :34:55.rid of them because of their race. The key point is the edifice that

:34:56. > :35:00.favours one race above another. We have to zoom out a little bit, we

:35:01. > :35:05.have do understand we have had 200 years of slavery, 200 years of

:35:06. > :35:09.colonialism, 50 years of extreme racism, no docs, no Irish, no

:35:10. > :35:13.Blacks, that is a big edifice that is thought to favour one race above

:35:14. > :35:18.the other, and what cascades from that is what we see on a daily

:35:19. > :35:23.basis, disproportionality in stop and search, disproportionality of

:35:24. > :35:28.black people being poor, suffering from mental health. We need on this

:35:29. > :35:35.discussion, first of all we need acknowledgement, this is good, we

:35:36. > :35:40.like this! We need acknowledgement that there is this bias, there is

:35:41. > :35:43.this race penalty. Then we have to have a discussion about what the

:35:44. > :35:47.solution is, how do we own picked this edifice, how do we make it more

:35:48. > :35:52.fair, how do we judge people like you and me, not by, as that great

:35:53. > :35:57.man said, not by the colour of our skin by the content of our

:35:58. > :36:00.character? You cannot even begin to start on this unless you acknowledge

:36:01. > :36:09.this edifice that works against some people. Absolutely. So, Kevin, have

:36:10. > :36:13.you been a victim of racism? I haven't personally but I've worked

:36:14. > :36:17.with some people who have. On a personal basis, I accept the

:36:18. > :36:20.argument about the difference between the institutional, systemic

:36:21. > :36:23.and individual, but if you take a small example of the personal

:36:24. > :36:26.experience, a person can be discriminated against on the basis

:36:27. > :36:32.of the colour of their skin in promotion at work, for instance, so

:36:33. > :36:35.we have little micro-communities who feel and experience racism based on

:36:36. > :36:38.the colour of their skin because in that small system there is a power

:36:39. > :36:43.system within employment, there is a boss and a business owner, somebody

:36:44. > :36:47.can feel that, but I agree it is not the same as institutional racism.

:36:48. > :36:54.But I want to make another point because the original question is,

:36:55. > :36:58.can whites be victims of racism, and I would say on a global scale they

:36:59. > :37:05.are, because we are all victims, wherever you have got a system that

:37:06. > :37:09.includes racism, we all lose out, we are all victims. I went to

:37:10. > :37:14.Washington, DC a few years ago and stood at the Lincoln Monument and

:37:15. > :37:17.read some of Lincoln's words, his famous quote about, let's not

:37:18. > :37:22.quibble about this man and that man, this race and that race, some

:37:23. > :37:26.inferior, we are all born equal and should be treated as equal. If we

:37:27. > :37:35.are not doing that 150 years later, we are all, we are doing all of us a

:37:36. > :37:39.disservice. Owain, I don't know if you are a great follower or fan of

:37:40. > :37:44.Karl Marx but he would have called this full squad is, he would have

:37:45. > :37:56.said it is all about socioeconomics -- false consciousness. You wrote

:37:57. > :38:01.the book Chavs, didn't you? Firstly, another white man talking about

:38:02. > :38:05.racism, just what we need. The point I made out in the books, when we

:38:06. > :38:08.talk about the white working class, which I don't, personally, it is

:38:09. > :38:13.misleading because the working class tends to be the most ethnically

:38:14. > :38:17.diverse section of population. Go to a middle-class suburb, then you will

:38:18. > :38:21.find the white middle class, a term for some reason we never use. Go to

:38:22. > :38:25.inner cities, working-class communities, they tend to be the

:38:26. > :38:32.most ethnically diverse. The problem is about how things intersect, that

:38:33. > :38:35.is critical. Class and race collide so if you look, for example...

:38:36. > :38:45.Class, race and gender. And sexuality, absolutely. It is the

:38:46. > :38:48.systemic point which is critical. I am not someone, I have never been

:38:49. > :38:51.stopped and searched randomly in my entire life, if you are black you

:38:52. > :38:54.are six times more likely to be stopped and searched in London, if

:38:55. > :38:58.you have drugs argue you are six times more likely to be charged,

:38:59. > :39:02.unemployment, you are more likely to be unemployed even if you have a

:39:03. > :39:05.degree if you from certain ethnic backgrounds, you are more likely to

:39:06. > :39:14.live in poverty. At one point in this crisis over half of young black

:39:15. > :39:16.men were unemployed. For it is the point about how things intersect

:39:17. > :39:18.because if you look at working-class, within the working

:39:19. > :39:23.class, those from minority backgrounds are the ones who are

:39:24. > :39:30.giving of the most -- living off the most insecure, low-paid jobs. OK, I

:39:31. > :39:36.will give way. As ever, that was brilliant. Don't get me wrong.

:39:37. > :39:43.Esther, a final port from you, how much of this is about class? There

:39:44. > :39:48.is an interrelationship, however class is also racialised because no

:39:49. > :39:53.matter how much people of African heritage or Asian heritage may

:39:54. > :39:57.elevate themselves in a particular system, they can still be redefined

:39:58. > :40:03.and reduced to a subject class, that is the point. Absolutely. So we

:40:04. > :40:07.cannot use class to get rid of racism, racism is a global system,

:40:08. > :40:11.the reason it exists is because not enough people who benefit from it

:40:12. > :40:14.are doing enough to counter it and we must also recognise there are

:40:15. > :40:20.different forms of racism that affect different groups, and it is

:40:21. > :40:23.linked to this historical system that is actually also bolstered by

:40:24. > :40:26.state power, so we cannot exclude the role of the state in actually

:40:27. > :40:36.enforcing that power. APPLAUSE.

:40:37. > :40:43.I bet social media is pretty busy right now! You can join in all the

:40:44. > :40:48.debates by logging on to the website, follow the link to the

:40:49. > :40:51.online discussion. You can tweet using the hashtag #bbctbq. And what

:40:52. > :40:53.about the last question, does morality come from religion or

:40:54. > :40:59.evolution? We are not on next week because it

:41:00. > :41:04.is Pentecost but will we -- but we will be back at the slightly later

:41:05. > :41:09.time on June the 11th of 11:15am, asking whether it interfering with

:41:10. > :41:15.genes is ethical, so join us for the last programme of the series.

:41:16. > :41:20.Now, when it is around 4.5 billion years old. We know that forms of

:41:21. > :41:27.life emerged around 3 billion years ago. Fast forward to just 6 million

:41:28. > :41:35.years ago to encounter the first to walk upright, 200,000 years forward

:41:36. > :41:43.the emergence of our species, Homo sapiens. The world's oldest living

:41:44. > :41:49.religion emerged about 5000 years ago. Judy is and didn't emerge until

:41:50. > :41:53.the second century BC, said they were beings like us, thousands of

:41:54. > :41:56.years ago, did they care about their neighbours, did they help each other

:41:57. > :42:04.out, did they shared their food when in need? Were they moral beings?

:42:05. > :42:07.Does morality come from religion or evolution? Dr Michael Price,

:42:08. > :42:17.evolutionary psychologist, good morning. Some amazing research going

:42:18. > :42:23.on at the moment into our closest genetic cousins, primates, about

:42:24. > :42:32.empathy, reciprocity, peacemaking, social laws, group cohesion, and a

:42:33. > :42:37.recent paper on corpse cleaning, other cleaning the corpse of the

:42:38. > :42:43.junk one, very particularly cleaning them out. That is significant, isn't

:42:44. > :42:47.it? Absolutely, we see evidence for the real basis of morality in our

:42:48. > :42:52.closest primate relatives and in other more distant relatives, and

:42:53. > :42:55.this idea that evolution, there is this prejudice that it only explains

:42:56. > :43:01.the nasty bits of human nature and we need culture or especially in the

:43:02. > :43:04.form of religion to sort of intercede and protect us from our

:43:05. > :43:10.animal cells, it is an obsolete view. Ever since Darwin but

:43:11. > :43:18.especially since the 1960s, series of old truism, Corporation and

:43:19. > :43:24.morality have been prolific. The problem now is, you have an

:43:25. > :43:28.abundance of theories to choose from and sometimes there are very subtle

:43:29. > :43:32.differences so you have to choose between this embarrassment of

:43:33. > :43:36.riches, really, there is no lack of explanation for morality. Because

:43:37. > :43:41.clearly you have to have group cohesion, social laws, peacemaking,

:43:42. > :43:45.empathy, all the group falls apart? Absolutely, it plays a big role is

:43:46. > :43:49.certainly group cohesion and group cooperative nurse and also in the

:43:50. > :43:53.individual level, to be a successful individual you have to be regarded

:43:54. > :44:01.as a moral individual, good cooperator, good reputation so it is

:44:02. > :44:03.important as an individual level as well. Many biologists would say now

:44:04. > :44:08.that we know that many animals have a sense of self-awareness, but then

:44:09. > :44:18.we, we develop reason, so quibbling could blink without? Not

:44:19. > :44:26.necessarily. -- Ayew quibbling with that? Those developments of social

:44:27. > :44:30.cohesion into something more subtle? I don't think it is primarily about

:44:31. > :44:36.reason, I think it is primarily about cooperation and acting in

:44:37. > :44:44.groups in a cohesive way. There are species of social insects that are

:44:45. > :44:49.extraordinarily cooperative, social creatures, reproductive division of

:44:50. > :44:53.Labour, they sacrifice themselves for the group, it goes back 150

:44:54. > :44:57.million years and predates the evolution of human beings by almost

:44:58. > :45:02.that much, so it is an extremely ancient evolutionary phenomenon. It

:45:03. > :45:05.is a fascinating and beautiful area, so inspiring. Betty, I know you

:45:06. > :45:11.don't agree with what this scientific consensus that every

:45:12. > :45:15.reputable scientist in the world does believe, but you are entitled

:45:16. > :45:22.to that. But where did we get our morality from, and how?

:45:23. > :45:36.Christians. How do you come to be as a human being? Do you ask the

:45:37. > :45:43.question, why am I hear? Have you asked yourself that? Every day!

:45:44. > :45:48.How'd you answer that? You could ask that of everything. Where'd you get

:45:49. > :45:53.your senses and Joe Westerman from? Have you asked that question of

:45:54. > :45:56.yourself? I have developed a really sophisticated frontal lobe over the

:45:57. > :46:01.last 6 million years, not me personally, but that is how. How'd

:46:02. > :46:06.you make choices in life in terms of knowing what is good and bad? Where

:46:07. > :46:10.did you get the idea from of what is good and what is bad? Where did we

:46:11. > :46:15.get the idea of what is good and bad? I think we have moral instinct

:46:16. > :46:21.is that tell us what is right and wrong and how to cooperate and be a

:46:22. > :46:26.good person. We also have, at the risk of oversimplifying, we also

:46:27. > :46:29.have evil instincts. Evolution has enabled us to be good or bad and big

:46:30. > :46:35.choices between how we want to behave. And I think religion and

:46:36. > :46:42.culture and sometimes in the form of religion has a role to play them in

:46:43. > :46:46.terms of codifying our moral norms and articulating nose and

:46:47. > :46:54.formalising them. And providing them with moral communities. It is easier

:46:55. > :46:57.to beat their moral individual. -- it is easier to beat a moral

:46:58. > :47:02.individual when you have a community who will not exploit you for that.

:47:03. > :47:06.Religious communities and groups have provided those communities for

:47:07. > :47:11.people, the more successful than a lot of secular groups. And religion

:47:12. > :47:17.plays a good part. I think it can and it can go the other way. Acting

:47:18. > :47:22.relatively can be progressive and regressive. It can lead to people

:47:23. > :47:25.being nice to each other and also people being thrown off the

:47:26. > :47:30.rooftops. Why would you make a choice of being good or bad, what

:47:31. > :47:34.would you choose? If we have a healthy society, it is better for

:47:35. > :47:40.ourselves to be nice and have a good reputation for being nice and

:47:41. > :47:43.cooperative. Betty, we have seen that primates make that choice.

:47:44. > :47:51.Otherwise, everything would fall apart. Without God, would we be

:47:52. > :47:55.morally lost? A lot of atheists would say and a lot of Christians

:47:56. > :48:00.most of whom believe in science in this country, they would say that

:48:01. > :48:05.they are good because they think that is instinctively the right

:48:06. > :48:09.thing to do. It is not good to sleep with my neighbour's wife. It is not

:48:10. > :48:16.going to be a good outcome. When you sleep with your neighbour's wife,

:48:17. > :48:22.what happens, anger? I am not talking from experience! But these

:48:23. > :48:26.are the things, they came to your mind straightaway to say what is

:48:27. > :48:35.bad, to sleep with a neighbour's wife. When you do that, the man will

:48:36. > :48:39.go after you either to kill you to attack you, that is the wrong

:48:40. > :48:46.attitude. And what will happen after that? Will call something dreadful

:48:47. > :48:50.to happen. And so God comes in. When you know God and God is in your

:48:51. > :48:56.heart, you will truly know what is right and what is wrong. I am going

:48:57. > :49:01.to speak to Megan, a quick word. However much explanatory power you

:49:02. > :49:08.give to evolution as this gentleman who does this work in the area, you

:49:09. > :49:11.are left with when humans act this way, this is what happens and when

:49:12. > :49:17.humans act this way, they do not survive. That is not a binding

:49:18. > :49:22.object in relative, that is just a description of how people behave and

:49:23. > :49:29.what happens. The man in the white shirt. You have to look at Moses, 13

:49:30. > :49:35.BC, if you have got the element of the ten Commandments and that gives

:49:36. > :49:46.most people the moral framework I would suggest of today. We had the

:49:47. > :49:52.Mayan civilisation before that. I am just using Moses as an example with

:49:53. > :49:55.those Commandments. Kevin Friery, Michael says that codified what is

:49:56. > :50:00.already there. Codification is a good thing and morale it comes

:50:01. > :50:09.partly from codification. Freud right or wrong says that we take our

:50:10. > :50:19.pleasure wherever we can get it. Original sin. Exactly. We socialised

:50:20. > :50:22.by different groups. Original sin is interesting because it is a

:50:23. > :50:28.fundamental tenant of Christianity. It is a file concept and a wicked

:50:29. > :50:33.ferry tale, it is more wicked than anything the brothers Grimm came up

:50:34. > :50:39.with. I was born and raised as a Catholic and I have a Ph.D. In

:50:40. > :50:44.Catholic guilt! I was raised with the concept I am fundamentally bad.

:50:45. > :50:48.I am working in death all the time and I have the stain of original

:50:49. > :50:53.sin. This so-called God there's a grudge from something somebody did

:50:54. > :50:59.eating an Apple in the forest. And because of that, I have got to sing

:51:00. > :51:04.on my soul. There cannot be -- I have got a stain on my soul that

:51:05. > :51:11.cannot be extinguished. But within Christianity, that is a major

:51:12. > :51:15.tenant. And it tells you you are not responsible for things you did

:51:16. > :51:19.because you fundamentally a bad person. I have done bad things in my

:51:20. > :51:22.life I should not have done that I regret doing, but I did them because

:51:23. > :51:29.I made choices and not because original sin. That is a beautiful

:51:30. > :51:36.concept, you were born in perfection and it goes downhill from there.

:51:37. > :51:41.Megan Loumagne, you are able Christian but not a science denier.

:51:42. > :51:47.Research into our origins is so inspiring and so wonderful and many

:51:48. > :51:53.Christians in this country think that as well the majority. For those

:51:54. > :51:58.who think, how does it into the core beliefs, with Adam and Eve and the

:51:59. > :52:03.fall and development of our morals, how do I square that circle? The

:52:04. > :52:08.first thing I would say is that does not need to be this dichotomy

:52:09. > :52:13.between relative came from evolution religion, they can be in mutual

:52:14. > :52:20.discourse. The hostility between them is overblown and they can fit

:52:21. > :52:25.together. It is an unnecessary war? Yes, they do not need to be at war

:52:26. > :52:28.with each other and original sin, although it has been used in

:52:29. > :52:32.horrible ways to make people feel bad about themselves, it can be an

:52:33. > :52:37.example of the way in which science and religion can work together to

:52:38. > :52:41.speak a truth about humanity and that relates to the topic we were

:52:42. > :52:46.previously discussing racism. You cannot greater than that and what we

:52:47. > :52:51.would say from a theological perspective about original sin, we

:52:52. > :52:55.have made individual choices that are sinful or racist and this

:52:56. > :53:01.becomes embedded in a system and we get a racist system. And this can be

:53:02. > :53:05.supported by science as well. Much of what Michael was saying is very

:53:06. > :53:12.helpful and theologians can learn from the origins of our species. Do

:53:13. > :53:17.you find it more beautiful as an allegory than something little? Yes,

:53:18. > :53:23.I find it to be more rich in terms of meaning. In terms of original

:53:24. > :53:27.sin, it is not necessary to the doctrine that you hold to a literal

:53:28. > :53:31.interpretation, many Christians do but it is not necessary to the

:53:32. > :53:37.meaning of the doctrine which says something about God and the way

:53:38. > :53:41.humanity relates to God. We like stories, we respond to stories. We

:53:42. > :53:46.love stories and there does not need to be a war between volitional

:53:47. > :53:50.theory and religion but it is easy not to be aware of how deeply rooted

:53:51. > :53:56.moral instincts can be. You have to study it and do the research and do

:53:57. > :53:59.the biology. Reciprocal old truism for example is a cornerstone of

:54:00. > :54:04.moral systems throughout the world and incest avoidance, a Freudian

:54:05. > :54:11.inbreeding. They have deep evolutionary roots. I completely

:54:12. > :54:16.agree and I have no problem with that. Since I believe God created

:54:17. > :54:19.the world, it makes sense that deep in the structures of the world,

:54:20. > :54:24.there are these patterns that demonstrate something true about

:54:25. > :54:33.human nature. God created a world in a broader and greater San of the

:54:34. > :54:37.band just, there you go? They rabbi said God is a gardener and not an

:54:38. > :54:43.engineer. We do not need to think about God as a magician, but it is a

:54:44. > :54:48.process to function with a certain amount of autonomy. So it makes

:54:49. > :54:52.perfect sense this would be deeply with rooted in biology. You have had

:54:53. > :54:59.your hand up, what would you like to say? I think the danger with some of

:55:00. > :55:05.the mainstream religions is their bases is in God, following the God

:55:06. > :55:10.said humans can get to heaven. Sometimes, that can involve killing

:55:11. > :55:17.life on Earth or other life because that is what they think God wants to

:55:18. > :55:20.get to heaven. The beauty of science, it uses evidence to

:55:21. > :55:26.understand how all life can thrive on Earth, that is why science and

:55:27. > :55:31.evolution can create a religion based on that understanding so all

:55:32. > :55:36.life can fully evolved on Earth. The holistic message is good. Some of

:55:37. > :55:42.the world's greatest evolutionary biologists are very devout

:55:43. > :55:46.Christians as well. Betty, if Hinduism is the first religion we

:55:47. > :55:54.recognise and understand and can trace back 5,000 years ago, why did

:55:55. > :55:59.God wait so long,, sorry, you do not think you did, but just go with the

:56:00. > :56:05.fact that human beings emerged 200,000 years ago, why would he wait

:56:06. > :56:11.so long until relatively recently? It is something I do not believe in.

:56:12. > :56:15.Take a flight of fancy! It is a flight of fancy, the reality is

:56:16. > :56:24.this, I believe in God and Jesus Christ. And his way is love. It is

:56:25. > :56:29.love and reconciliation. He gives us the grace and the understanding, the

:56:30. > :56:33.tools that we need to forgive. But even when horrible things happen.

:56:34. > :56:37.And in this world that we live in, with all that is going on, we need

:56:38. > :56:41.to find something that is real to hold onto. In my reality, it is

:56:42. > :56:50.Jesus Christ. For many other people, it is different. That is Megan's as

:56:51. > :56:57.well. Yes, I think the original sin says something about Jesus and the

:56:58. > :57:03.human need for redemption, there is an illness at the core of who we

:57:04. > :57:10.are. Archbishop lane macro wants to come in! I like that, do I get a hat

:57:11. > :57:16.as well? What is missing is human struggle, our understanding of right

:57:17. > :57:22.and wrong but is granted by human beings organising against injustice,

:57:23. > :57:26.and I respect faith, rationalised by extreme forms and interpretations of

:57:27. > :57:33.religion. The position of women, what we regard as right and wrong,

:57:34. > :57:38.has dramatically in changed. The LGBT people organised and struggles

:57:39. > :57:43.at great cost, and we stand on that shoulders of giants, at great cost

:57:44. > :57:48.and great sacrifice. Our attitudes have changed because people had to

:57:49. > :57:54.fight very hard against change. LGBT, Betty? You are a father, Nikki

:57:55. > :57:59.and you love your children. Extravagantly. If one of your

:58:00. > :58:05.children, choices have to be made, would you still love them? God loves

:58:06. > :58:10.the gay community, he loves every single one and he gave every human

:58:11. > :58:19.being a free choice. It is not a choice, Betty! Am not going to argue

:58:20. > :58:24.with you. That was series six, programmed 12! We only have 30

:58:25. > :58:29.seconds! I respect who you are, God loves you. We need to accept that.

:58:30. > :58:36.Thank you, Betty, we are out of time. Betty says, God loves you,

:58:37. > :58:40.Owen! The debates continue online and on Twitter, we're not back next

:58:41. > :58:50.week but the final edition is about meddling with with genes on BBC One.

:58:51. > :58:53.For now, it is goodbye and from Peckham and Owen loves you!