:00:00. > :00:23.Today on The Big Questions: sexism, prisons and religion in politics.
:00:24. > :00:30.Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
:00:31. > :00:32.Today we're live from Appleton Academy in Bradford.
:00:33. > :00:38.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
:00:39. > :00:41.On Friday Donald Trump became president of the United States
:00:42. > :00:44.of America, having beaten Hillary Clinton in the electoral
:00:45. > :00:47.college, although not in the popular vote.
:00:48. > :00:49.Yesterday millions of women across the world took
:00:50. > :00:52.to the streets in protest, calling for women to have parity
:00:53. > :00:56.and equity at all levels of leadership in society.
:00:57. > :00:59.And this week, in the Swiss Alps, at Davos,
:01:00. > :01:04.the World Economic Forum brought together the most powerful movers
:01:05. > :01:08.and shakers in business, finance, and governance to discuss the state
:01:09. > :01:15.Prime Minister Theresa May was there, but she was part
:01:16. > :01:18.of a minority group - only a fifth of the
:01:19. > :01:22.Is the system still stacked against women?
:01:23. > :01:32.Well, Aisha Ali-Khan from Shipley, feminist zealot, so-called because I
:01:33. > :01:40.think the MP Philip Davies referred to you as zealots, so you took it
:01:41. > :01:43.and ran with it? We owned it, basically, we thought, this is what
:01:44. > :01:48.we will be branded as, we might as well only at. It's great to have a
:01:49. > :01:53.zealot on the programme, it's not the first time! Listen, what does
:01:54. > :01:58.victory by a man whose apparent views about women, what is it with
:01:59. > :02:02.these apparent views about women, what does it tell you about where we
:02:03. > :02:10.are in the struggle for equality? I think with Trump's election, I think
:02:11. > :02:14.we've gone backwards massively. I think if we can have somebody in the
:02:15. > :02:18.White House with views that are so degrading to women, and the comments
:02:19. > :02:23.that he's made over the years, not just obviously during the election
:02:24. > :02:26.campaign, but previously as well which then came to light during the
:02:27. > :02:30.election campaign. If somebody like that, with his views, is in the
:02:31. > :02:36.White House today, I don't know what hope we have for women across the
:02:37. > :02:44.world. Belinda is gearing up here. This is just one dinosaur, isn't it?
:02:45. > :02:49.Hang on the second, I will be going around the audience shortly. This is
:02:50. > :02:54.just one dinosaur. The universities are full of young women. The march
:02:55. > :03:02.of progress goes on and the promised land will be reached, surely? The
:03:03. > :03:10.sad thing is that it's not just one politician or one person or one
:03:11. > :03:14.reader. We have so many similar minded people over the world. Look
:03:15. > :03:19.at Philip Davies, his comments around equality, women and so on, he
:03:20. > :03:24.has an issue with women who want equality,... Do you think those
:03:25. > :03:28.views are prevalent, widespread, common amongst men, still? I think
:03:29. > :03:32.the danger is that these men have platforms with which they can
:03:33. > :03:35.disseminate these views to a much wider audience. Last night we had
:03:36. > :03:41.Piers Morgan who took to his Twitter account and he branded feminists
:03:42. > :03:45.rabid feminists, women at work protesting. Protests are really
:03:46. > :03:49.inconsistent because I've not seen any protests against the Saudi
:03:50. > :03:57.government even though people know for years women have not been
:03:58. > :04:00.allowed to drive or do anything. We have so many amazing feminists, so
:04:01. > :04:05.many amazing women who are protesting. And these are obviously,
:04:06. > :04:09.I recognise the fact that women in Saudi Arabia, and not just in
:04:10. > :04:14.Islamic countries, who are being discriminated against, who do not
:04:15. > :04:19.have the same access to education, health care. That's part of the
:04:20. > :04:23.struggle, obviously. Belinda. I think the important thing is that
:04:24. > :04:27.we're talking about feminism in this country, we are talking about women
:04:28. > :04:31.in this country, we should not be using the terrible situations of
:04:32. > :04:37.women and men in developing countries to boost the feminist
:04:38. > :04:43.campaign. Speaking personally as a woman, I don't feel I have ever
:04:44. > :04:52.experienced disadvantage. Ayew a feminist? Absolutely not, no.
:04:53. > :04:56.Strongly opposed to feminism. And this idea, are things stacked
:04:57. > :05:00.against women? When I look around me, the evidence is pointing to
:05:01. > :05:04.actually things stacked against men. If you look at the education system,
:05:05. > :05:09.all the way through, boys are disadvantaged in relation to girls,
:05:10. > :05:13.resulting in 33% more women ending up at university resulting in the
:05:14. > :05:17.fact that up to the age of 35 women are actually earning slightly more
:05:18. > :05:22.than men. There are all kinds of ways. But women have to do so much
:05:23. > :05:26.better and achieve so much more to get to the same level. That is a
:05:27. > :05:31.complete myth, that is a complete myth. The reason why women are not
:05:32. > :05:35.at the same level in politics is because of choices we make. We
:05:36. > :05:43.prioritise our families and our private lives more than men do. We
:05:44. > :05:53.are not talking about inequality. Do you want to come in, Jackie? I was
:05:54. > :06:00.rather taken aback by the passion. I feel a lot of passion about the lack
:06:01. > :06:06.of parity, the lack of equality. But it's a myth? I think the myth is
:06:07. > :06:09.that we have equality, parity. I think we still have a long way to
:06:10. > :06:14.go. I think there's been great strides in terms of women in
:06:15. > :06:17.society, women in organisations, there's been focused on developing
:06:18. > :06:23.women in more senior roles at leadership levels, but we still have
:06:24. > :06:27.a long way to go. Belinda says it's because of the choices that women
:06:28. > :06:31.make. I think we do have choices and I think feminism isn't against
:06:32. > :06:37.choice. The idea of feminism is that we have the opportunity to choose to
:06:38. > :06:40.eat what we want to do, whether we want to work, whether we don't want
:06:41. > :06:45.to work, whether we have careers, whether we don't. It's all about
:06:46. > :06:49.choice. There are a couple of things there. I don't think feminism is
:06:50. > :06:52.about choice, it's actually put women in a situation where now we
:06:53. > :06:57.are much more compelled to work than ever we were before. We are forced
:06:58. > :07:01.to go out and leave our children in child care and much earlier ages.
:07:02. > :07:07.And let's look at the facts, who lives five years longer? Women do.
:07:08. > :07:13.Who constitute the majority of homeless, about 95%, men do. In all
:07:14. > :07:17.these different areas. Who constitutes 79% of the suicide rate?
:07:18. > :07:23.Who gets sentenced for longer times? Men do. Who gets less funding on
:07:24. > :07:31.health care? Men do. It's hard to find one area where women are
:07:32. > :07:34.disadvantaged in relation to men. I think it's really unfortunate to
:07:35. > :07:37.conflict things like homelessness statistics and the length of prison
:07:38. > :07:43.sentences solely on the grounds of gender. The things we talked about
:07:44. > :07:48.so far around women and men are all happening in a context that is all
:07:49. > :07:51.happening in a context. And directly strongly disagree with a lot of the
:07:52. > :07:57.points that you have made around education. The idea is when I buy my
:07:58. > :08:00.niece and nephew clothes, I can buy a superman outfit or a Little
:08:01. > :08:05.Princess outfit, and it begins even before the womb. We are so
:08:06. > :08:15.conditioned. And in our parliament we have 29% of the MPs are female.
:08:16. > :08:20.20% of the Conservative MPs, chosen by committee is full of women. At
:08:21. > :08:22.every level across our society, statistically and anecdotally we
:08:23. > :08:26.still do not have equality, and to suggest that as a feminist I should
:08:27. > :08:35.only care about women in this country is deeply offensive. Allow
:08:36. > :08:39.me, if I may, to go to the audience. After your opening salvo which was
:08:40. > :08:45.absolutely fascinating, lots of hands went up. Good morning. My
:08:46. > :08:49.point is, there is a quality to certain levels up to middle
:08:50. > :08:51.management level, I think we are talking about, employment or even if
:08:52. > :08:57.we are talking about political roles. The gap really widens when it
:08:58. > :09:00.gets to leadership level. And what I've observed, and I've talked to
:09:01. > :09:04.hundreds of women on this subject is, often it's because other women
:09:05. > :09:09.are judgment or about other women. There is discrimination. But when we
:09:10. > :09:12.get to a certain level we pull up the ladder is behind us and that's
:09:13. > :09:18.really unhelpful and that is why changes and happening as quickly in
:09:19. > :09:21.my opinion. Good morning, are you a feminist? Yeah, I am a strong
:09:22. > :09:26.feminist and I'm actually quite shocked, it is quite worrying to
:09:27. > :09:30.hear people still today misinterpreting feminism. For me
:09:31. > :09:34.feminism is literally just all about equality. It really annoys me when
:09:35. > :09:39.you have misogynists such as Philip Davies saying that, yeah, but men
:09:40. > :09:44.have higher suicide rates. We completely agree, that's feminism.
:09:45. > :09:46.Ironically the fact that men have high suicide rate is because of the
:09:47. > :09:53.fact they don't feel comfortable expressing themselves. The whole
:09:54. > :09:56.point of feminism, the whole point behind feminism is to deconstruct
:09:57. > :10:01.this kind of gender expectations so many feel comfortable to express
:10:02. > :10:05.their emotions so men, if it's their choice, and let's say for example
:10:06. > :10:11.you have a couple and a man has a lower paying job than the female,
:10:12. > :10:14.that they feel comfortable being a househusband. That is actively
:10:15. > :10:18.supporting feminism. And these statistics you are coming out with,
:10:19. > :10:25.I completely agree with the lady with the purple hair, it should not
:10:26. > :10:29.be seen in a vacuum. You have intersections with race, class, and
:10:30. > :10:36.to say that there are white working class men out there, I completely
:10:37. > :10:42.agree, but it's not just based on gender. Why are you rolling your
:10:43. > :10:46.eyes at what she is saying? There are some basic points which
:10:47. > :10:50.undermine this whole argument. As women and men, biology doesn't make
:10:51. > :10:58.as equal, it makes us different. And because of that, if I may, I did
:10:59. > :11:01.listen to you, it means that women biologically may have to make
:11:02. > :11:08.different choices. Even if they have childcare from the day after they
:11:09. > :11:09.deliver a baby, they might be in a hormonal cauldron that makes them
:11:10. > :11:13.make different choices to the ones they perceive they might make. The
:11:14. > :11:18.other thing about living in a meritocracy is that it should be the
:11:19. > :11:22.best man or women for the job. So female quotas or short lists, I
:11:23. > :11:27.don't want to be chosen for a job because of that, I want to be the
:11:28. > :11:33.best person for that job. It may be because of lifestyle choices, or
:11:34. > :11:37.because they are not good enough, that women are not getting the
:11:38. > :11:43.positions of. But how do you address the inequality? Aisha? The numbers
:11:44. > :11:53.do not lie. Fortune 500 companies, only 4.4 have female CEOs. Maybe
:11:54. > :11:59.they're not good enough! Internationally, across the world,
:12:00. > :12:03.and what she said is spot on, yesterday the female zealots raised
:12:04. > :12:09.over ?100,000 on the day in donations, half of which are going
:12:10. > :12:14.to Women's Aid, and half are going to a charity that helps prevent male
:12:15. > :12:20.suicide. So we are not against men, we support men, we support everybody
:12:21. > :12:30.who is disadvantaged, discriminated against. One of the big issues is
:12:31. > :12:34.there is a problem of raising awareness for the issues men and
:12:35. > :12:41.boys have an feminist organisations have systematically been undermining
:12:42. > :12:46.this process. For example, York University, 2005, men stay was
:12:47. > :12:54.marked as an important point in time -- men's day. But a group of 200
:12:55. > :12:57.almost only female feminists took it off the agenda, they protested
:12:58. > :13:04.against it. This is a good example of it and that is the problem. Women
:13:05. > :13:07.have bigger issues but we need to have a balanced view. In response to
:13:08. > :13:14.you, the problem is that when we raise these issues like male
:13:15. > :13:18.suicide, rough sleepers, 95% of people who die at work are all men
:13:19. > :13:23.and do the nasty work that feminists don't talk about, but when we raise
:13:24. > :13:27.those issues you say, we need to see it in a different context, but why?
:13:28. > :13:31.Why do we need to put it in a different context and when we talk
:13:32. > :13:35.about female issues? I work in the prison system so to tell me I don't
:13:36. > :13:40.know about male suicide and homelessness is very unfortunate.
:13:41. > :13:44.Professor Jackie Ford, I do want to hear from the men in the audience in
:13:45. > :13:49.just a second, don't worry, David, I will be with you, I'm doing my very
:13:50. > :13:54.best here. What about the point from Angela that in a true meritocracy it
:13:55. > :13:56.is absolutely just on your merits, your talents, your abilities, and
:13:57. > :14:00.the fact that there aren't more women at the top as CEOs of the top
:14:01. > :14:05.companies, she said it might just be because they are not good enough?
:14:06. > :14:11.Well they are not good enough if you only class the norms of behaviour as
:14:12. > :14:14.masculine norms. Privilege and in a hidden way what we value here are
:14:15. > :14:18.masculine characteristics and behaviour is. What are they?
:14:19. > :14:23.Rationality, aggressiveness, ruthlessness, these are what are
:14:24. > :14:29.going to be rewarded in our leadership roles. We talk about this
:14:30. > :14:35.great heroic charismatic leaders. Ruthlessness and aggression? Rather
:14:36. > :14:43.than a more collective approach to leadership which gets a lot of
:14:44. > :14:47.mileage, of entertaining issues. Are those feminine characteristics? They
:14:48. > :14:51.might be. I'm suggesting that both men and women can have masculine and
:14:52. > :14:56.feminine characteristics. What are the strengths? We draw also on
:14:57. > :15:00.communal behaviours, draw on emotion, recognise passion, and
:15:01. > :15:01.views about other issues, allow people to speak, and not get talked
:15:02. > :15:18.over. Some of those are the issues. I do my best! It wasn't personal!
:15:19. > :15:22.Bishop Toby? I came in as a bishop before there were women bishops and
:15:23. > :15:27.now, thank God, there are women bishops. It took much too long but
:15:28. > :15:32.it has made such a difference to the way we work together so it is in all
:15:33. > :15:41.of our interests. Women bishops, a triumph, Belinda? I'm not supportive
:15:42. > :15:49.of women bishops. I think it... I'm not in favour of women bishops. Why
:15:50. > :15:54.not? I feel it is important, we need to get more men, actually, into the
:15:55. > :16:02.church, and there is a reason that we have male leadership... It is
:16:03. > :16:07.full of men! What about the traditional roles, as you would
:16:08. > :16:17.perhaps have it, have men been emasculated? Have women become
:16:18. > :16:21.de-feminised? I think what feminism has done has made women appear to be
:16:22. > :16:26.more feminine and more victim like than they ever were before. When I
:16:27. > :16:32.see, recently I heard this thing about, if you have got problems with
:16:33. > :16:36.your day, you -- with your date, you go to the bar and ask for a
:16:37. > :16:40.particular drink and they understand the problem. When I was young, we
:16:41. > :16:43.could deal with these problems and I feel feminism has made women feel
:16:44. > :16:53.much weaker and more helpless than they were before. This is dangerous,
:16:54. > :16:55.because... I agree. Your attitude is dangerous because what you are
:16:56. > :16:59.talking about is something we should have stamped out years ago. You are
:17:00. > :17:03.saying that women, because we want to keep ourselves safe, have no
:17:04. > :17:07.right to expect a safety from society around us. I don't
:17:08. > :17:13.understand why that is relevant. I think what feminism is doing is
:17:14. > :17:23.creating hostilities between men and women... Mary! Wait a minute, Mary?
:17:24. > :17:27.I class myself as a feminist, and I've seen, during my life, how
:17:28. > :17:32.feminism has actually enabled women to progress and get to where they
:17:33. > :17:36.want to. What I think feminism is about is actually about choice. It
:17:37. > :17:41.is about women being able to go out to work, have careers, and also the
:17:42. > :17:46.other side of it, I think, is also about men having choice. In my
:17:47. > :17:50.capacity as a member of the European Parliament, we have done a lot of
:17:51. > :17:54.work on worklife balance and there is more and more of the need for
:17:55. > :17:57.that, and there are more men who actually would prefer all wish to
:17:58. > :18:02.spend more time at home with their families. And, for me, that is what
:18:03. > :18:06.it is about. I must come back to this question about quotas for
:18:07. > :18:10.women. Women are just as good as men and we have to get that in our
:18:11. > :18:17.heads. APPLAUSE.
:18:18. > :18:20.I would like to say I am a declared non-feminist because I think a lot
:18:21. > :18:24.of the current feminist arguments are spoiling for an argument. That
:18:25. > :18:28.campaign about getting Jane Austen on a bank note, I want the same
:18:29. > :18:32.number of banknotes as my male colleague, I don't care whose basic
:18:33. > :18:38.is, it could be Mickey Mouse as far as I'm concerned. I went to school
:18:39. > :18:42.amongst the alumna of my old school, they were suffragettes. We were
:18:43. > :18:45.encouraged to aim high, powered through any ceiling, the first
:18:46. > :18:50.female bishop in the country went to my old school, Lee B Lane, I went to
:18:51. > :18:55.school with her. There was no suggestion even back then, several
:18:56. > :19:00.years ago, that she was in anyway held back. I can't speak on her
:19:01. > :19:04.behalf. So this notion that somehow we are being arm locked because
:19:05. > :19:09.society is clipping our wings, I think it is nonsense. If there are
:19:10. > :19:12.concerns such as sexual objectification of women, heinous
:19:13. > :19:17.conduct towards women, it is a concern for all society, and as far
:19:18. > :19:27.as Donald Trump is concerned, he was elected by a majority. Peter,
:19:28. > :19:30.quickly, then we will have some hands up in the audience. I think
:19:31. > :19:35.feminism is a beautiful thing, one of the most profound and insightful
:19:36. > :19:39.things understandable inhumanity. The ethics of care that feminism
:19:40. > :19:44.brings us, I think it is a way of understanding both men and women,
:19:45. > :19:48.the lady who spoke behind as putted beautifully, absolutely fantastic,
:19:49. > :19:53.and as an man I would say I think feminism is fantastic and I think we
:19:54. > :20:02.should have more feminism, it is very important. And to go back to
:20:03. > :20:07.one point, the feminisation of poverty, since the 70s there have
:20:08. > :20:09.been more and more women impoverished, going without food to
:20:10. > :20:16.feed their children, you are missing the point. Think about what the
:20:17. > :20:20.world was like before feminism... Feminism in principle sounds really
:20:21. > :20:24.good. I think all of us, all humanity, men and women, we all have
:20:25. > :20:30.sons and daughters, we care about both genders. The problem I think is
:20:31. > :20:33.with the sort of extreme feminist activist who undermine initiatives
:20:34. > :20:40.to raise awareness, and I have just given and it -- given a good example
:20:41. > :20:44.of it, and there are many. You have only seen from the sideline the
:20:45. > :20:50.positive news stories but people who look into these issues, called
:20:51. > :20:53.anti-feminist, they can show you exactly what sort of things are
:20:54. > :20:55.going on. We have to leave it there, thank you all very much indeed for
:20:56. > :21:04.that, thank you. APPLAUSE.
:21:05. > :21:09.It was considered and consensual and it was just... If you have got
:21:10. > :21:13.something to say about the debate, log onto bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions
:21:14. > :21:14.and follow the link, where you can join in the discussion online or
:21:15. > :21:16.contribute on Twitter. We're also debating
:21:17. > :21:18.live this morning at Bradford's Appleton Academy -
:21:19. > :21:20.does prison work? And, should religion have
:21:21. > :21:22.any role in politics? So get tweeting or emailing on those
:21:23. > :21:25.topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may
:21:26. > :21:31.have about the show. Last November, the Justice
:21:32. > :21:33.Secretary, Liz Truss, promised prisons were going to get
:21:34. > :21:35.their biggest overhaul A couple of days later
:21:36. > :21:41.there was a riot at Bedford Prison involving 200 inmates,
:21:42. > :21:43.followed a month later by another riot of 240
:21:44. > :21:49.prisoners at HMP Birmingham. Reductions in prison staffing,
:21:50. > :21:51.gang violence, and psychoactive This week the House
:21:52. > :21:54.of Commons Select Committee on Justice began examining
:21:55. > :21:58.the Government's plans. Many critics say the biggest
:21:59. > :22:11.question they need to address Let's address that one. Sara, as you
:22:12. > :22:14.mentioned earlier on, working in prisons in the field of criminal
:22:15. > :22:20.Justice, men touring women in custody as well. We have got more
:22:21. > :22:29.prisoners in this country than any other in Western Europe, and, as a
:22:30. > :22:35.whole, only Russia and Turkey have more. Some of these statistics are
:22:36. > :22:40.stark and astonishing. Why is this happening? Well, we have got double
:22:41. > :22:46.the number of people in prison now than we had 20 years ago. Crime
:22:47. > :22:50.rates are going down? So much of this is directly the result of
:22:51. > :22:53.policy. As Bob Neill, chair of the Justice select committee, said at
:22:54. > :22:56.the start of the fetching on Wednesday, the wide consensus now is
:22:57. > :23:00.the prison system we have is in crisis and that is significant, the
:23:01. > :23:04.Conservative chair of the Justice select committee saying that. We
:23:05. > :23:07.know it doesn't work, by any measure, not for victims of crime,
:23:08. > :23:20.not for society, certainly not for the people in it when you have the
:23:21. > :23:22.scale of rioting and frequency of rioting, which is unprecedented
:23:23. > :23:25.since Strangeways 25 years ago. Peter, it is a while since you were
:23:26. > :23:28.in but it was pretty bad then, and you were just failing beforehand
:23:29. > :23:33.that it is even worse now? Yes, my first sentence was at 14 years old,
:23:34. > :23:41.I was a regular attendant. Not at any point was prison a deterrent or
:23:42. > :23:45.an event -- and intervention. Since getting released and working in the
:23:46. > :23:50.community with people that are getting out of prison, the stories
:23:51. > :23:53.I'm hearing now, it is getting scarier and scarier. The challenges
:23:54. > :23:57.people are facing about settling into the community after release
:23:58. > :24:01.from prison, showing the work that is taking place in the custody
:24:02. > :24:05.setting is not supporting them to get to a point to manage themselves
:24:06. > :24:09.in the community, which then encourages the cycle of offending
:24:10. > :24:19.again and back into prison. Is it just too brutal, do we need to
:24:20. > :24:21.change our society? I'm not sure it is brutal, there are examples around
:24:22. > :24:23.the world, good practice in custody settings, initiatives I'm aware of
:24:24. > :24:26.where people studying in universities and the community go
:24:27. > :24:30.into prison to study alongside prisoners, breaking down barriers
:24:31. > :24:34.and stigma that people carry. There are intervention is going on but I
:24:35. > :24:38.think, on the whole, there is not enough and it is not consistent
:24:39. > :24:46.enough, those community support networks are not consistent enough.
:24:47. > :24:50.I provide a mentoring service to address how people identify
:24:51. > :24:53.themselves, if we can get people to see themselves as somebody who can
:24:54. > :24:56.fit in with society, that is not just an offender or substance
:24:57. > :25:02.misuse, then we can raise their aspirations. And today, you will be
:25:03. > :25:08.interested in this, in Norway prisoners are allowed all manner of
:25:09. > :25:14.comforts, much more lenient, in a way that would send some of our
:25:15. > :25:24.popular press apoplectic. But the reoffending rate here is 60%, the
:25:25. > :25:29.reoffending rate in Norway is 20%. Well, you can do anything you want
:25:30. > :25:36.with statistics. If that is what they say, that is what they say.
:25:37. > :25:40.More lenient regime 's? As far as I am concerned, prison has four
:25:41. > :25:43.functions. Yes, there is rehabilitation, we want to feel
:25:44. > :25:46.people have learned something from the sobering experience prison and
:25:47. > :25:51.come out as a better person who hopefully won't reoffend. We hope it
:25:52. > :25:54.will be a deterrent. But we also hope it will keep members of the
:25:55. > :25:58.public safe. The fourth thing is anybody who has committed certainly
:25:59. > :26:03.a violent crime should have their liberty taken away from them in a
:26:04. > :26:08.way that makes them the punishment. A very simple comparison, if you
:26:09. > :26:11.jump a red light you have to do a speeding course, get points on your
:26:12. > :26:15.license, you feel it, and afterwards, if you have been done
:26:16. > :26:19.for speeding, you tend to watch the plot a bit more. It has to be made
:26:20. > :26:26.to feel that, thankfully I have not been inside... The loss of liberty
:26:27. > :26:30.in a much more lenient regime in Norway has a 20% reoffending rates.
:26:31. > :26:33.What is your conclusion other than saying, oh, statistics can say
:26:34. > :26:39.anything? My conclusion is still the fact is that prison, first of all
:26:40. > :26:43.people who commit violent crime need to be taken off the streets will
:26:44. > :26:47.stop how do you stop them committing violent crime when they come out?
:26:48. > :26:53.Some people you can hopefully rehabilitate but some people will be
:26:54. > :26:56.sobered up by the experience of prison. I would have thought
:26:57. > :27:01.somebody locked up would not want to go through it again, but if they are
:27:02. > :27:06.given an iPad, Amazon orders, a la carte food, whatever, it will not
:27:07. > :27:10.encourage them to not reoffend. I'm sorry, but prisons are exceptionally
:27:11. > :27:15.painful irrespective of the conditions that a person lives in.
:27:16. > :27:21.Prisons are about the waste of life and the consciousness of time, the
:27:22. > :27:26.sense of loss, the estrangement from family members. These are all
:27:27. > :27:33.absolutely fundamental and essential to how a prison works. You may well
:27:34. > :27:37.have other aspects, for example around austere regimes, punitive
:27:38. > :27:41.regimes, you may have restrictions in terms of access to all sorts of
:27:42. > :27:46.things like educational resources, but prisons are profoundly painful.
:27:47. > :27:54.That is why we have such a high rate of death in prison. We have,
:27:55. > :28:00.apparently, one of the highest rates ever in prison deaths. Last year,
:28:01. > :28:05.113 prisoners in England and Wales killed themselves. There are still
:28:06. > :28:12.57 awaiting classification so that number will go up. Since 1990, more
:28:13. > :28:17.than 1900 self-inflicted deaths. To top regimes work as a deterrent?
:28:18. > :28:21.There is no evidence a tougher regime will lead to the slightest
:28:22. > :28:28.decrease. In fact, what works is when we try to help people. Belinda?
:28:29. > :28:31.The evidence suggests that the longer people are in prison, the
:28:32. > :28:37.less likely they are to reoffend, and the number of deaths going up I
:28:38. > :28:40.think has coincided with slightly greater liberalisation. What you
:28:41. > :28:46.have happening is the prisoners themselves have more freedom but the
:28:47. > :28:50.really hard and ones I think our ruling get over the perhaps slightly
:28:51. > :28:56.more... There is a lot more bullying because there could be a slight, I
:28:57. > :28:59.don't know if a vacuum of authority is the right word, but a stronger
:29:00. > :29:02.regime would prevent the bullying that happens inside prisons which
:29:03. > :29:10.probably contributes towards the rates of suicide.
:29:11. > :29:17.If you want to look at what works you don't even have to go abroad.
:29:18. > :29:24.There is an intensive therapeutic community here. The highest rates of
:29:25. > :29:26.prison deaths including self-inflicted deaths directly
:29:27. > :29:30.correlates in a benchmarking exercise, you can see it drop off,
:29:31. > :29:35.presents become more overcrowded, they are understaffed, the rates of
:29:36. > :29:42.violence, assaults on staff and suicide go a long, it is that
:29:43. > :29:47.simple, the equation. As for a la carte food? ?1.81 is what prisoners
:29:48. > :29:50.spend on a whole day's food. The idea there is plenty to do, many
:29:51. > :29:57.people are currently in cells for 23 hours a day. That is why there are
:29:58. > :30:01.riots. The huge increase in violence and self-inflicted deaths. The
:30:02. > :30:05.chairman of the prison officers Association, good morning. I've
:30:06. > :30:09.listened to some of that debate and I've got to say that presents an
:30:10. > :30:14.oppressive any more, people have this view that prisons have prison
:30:15. > :30:21.officers going round giving someone a clunk when they step out of line,
:30:22. > :30:24.it does not work like that any more. You have wings in closed
:30:25. > :30:27.establishment of 200 prisoners where they've got three members of staff
:30:28. > :30:31.try to control that, there's no way three members of staff can be
:30:32. > :30:36.oppressive and maintain the levels of discipline that people are trying
:30:37. > :30:41.to allude to. What you have got is prisons run on prison officers that
:30:42. > :30:44.have away and ability of controlling and managing people without having
:30:45. > :30:49.to show force unless someone steps out of line. If there were fewer
:30:50. > :30:53.prisoners the whole thing would be easier to manage? Overcrowding is a
:30:54. > :30:57.problem, and we put people who should be in mental hospitals in
:30:58. > :31:04.prisons nowadays because we cut the funding to the NHS. So there is a
:31:05. > :31:08.concern around the population we are housing within prisons, and there
:31:09. > :31:20.are interventions for those people. They are not sufficient, I agree
:31:21. > :31:24.that to -- too time is spent behind doors. Because you do not have the
:31:25. > :31:27.numbers, you have prisoners maintaining order and they are not
:31:28. > :31:31.the people you want controlling orders, and that causes the drugs
:31:32. > :31:35.and violence and all the problems in prisons. In the long-term if we
:31:36. > :31:43.control it it will benefit society and prisons. Hello. In my view a
:31:44. > :31:48.punitive prison system does not work. Therefore we need to take a
:31:49. > :31:52.much more liberal approach. And believe it or not, there are
:31:53. > :31:56.countries in the world that servers perfectly good examples. I would
:31:57. > :32:01.also like to advocate for the Norwegian prison system as a model.
:32:02. > :32:04.Their prisons are not overcrowded, their main objective is to
:32:05. > :32:09.reintegrate those who have been excluded from society back into
:32:10. > :32:13.society. And they have one of the lowest recidivism rates in Europe
:32:14. > :32:21.and indeed around the world at 20%. Compare that to hear at 55%. Over
:32:22. > :32:28.there? I have been to prison, I served a nine-year prison sentence.
:32:29. > :32:33.I have been into category B, category a and two categories C and
:32:34. > :32:37.D. I was told different things in category a presence, you are going
:32:38. > :32:41.to come through the same door again, there's nothing out there for you.
:32:42. > :32:44.Different prison officers have different approaches. There were
:32:45. > :32:48.mechanisms and things for me to get involved and do rather than sitting
:32:49. > :32:52.in a room watching a wall and wondering when my food will be
:32:53. > :32:55.happening. The only way it's going to work is if there are more
:32:56. > :33:00.category D prisons where people can act surely go whilst they are in
:33:01. > :33:03.their knowing, if I get there, I can do something that will give me a
:33:04. > :33:07.chance to do something and get on with my life. Having a support
:33:08. > :33:11.mental, like the Prince's Trust who supported me from day one, they gave
:33:12. > :33:17.me the help and support even to this day, to say, we are there for you,
:33:18. > :33:23.we are not letting you go. Probation service can help but there are too
:33:24. > :33:26.many people to look out for. How do you feel when people say it is cushy
:33:27. > :33:34.being inside prison? I'd say come inside and have a look. You've got
:33:35. > :33:39.inmates who are getting food and what they are doing straightaway is
:33:40. > :33:44.physically throwing it at officers and saying, what is this? Give us
:33:45. > :33:48.food that is proper. That's the only thing they can afford. Do deterrents
:33:49. > :33:52.work? There's no doubt it would be beneficial to all of society if
:33:53. > :33:56.people could leave prison and unable themselves to make a useful
:33:57. > :34:00.contribution to society again. And education in prison shouldn't be
:34:01. > :34:04.seen as some kind of reward. You said earlier on when you were hoping
:34:05. > :34:08.that people would not want to go back there. So presumably I can
:34:09. > :34:14.infer from that, you think deterrence works? I think deterrents
:34:15. > :34:20.do work. If you are made to feel you are in a situation where you don't
:34:21. > :34:21.want to repeat against a .31 US states, can I just say, with the
:34:22. > :34:32.death penalty, have . The kind of people who commit that
:34:33. > :34:34.level of crime that necessitates the death crime are the kind of people
:34:35. > :34:41.that are programmed to keep reoffending anyway. OK, you can all
:34:42. > :34:47.touch and shake your head is. We are not all tutting. There is an
:34:48. > :34:52.absolute tsunami of statistics and surveys being thrown across the room
:34:53. > :34:56.here, we don't know what the criminal mentality is. Is this not
:34:57. > :35:01.dispassionate logic? We can all think about vengeance and righteous
:35:02. > :35:06.indignation. These are actually facts and statistics. Do we know how
:35:07. > :35:09.many prison officers are on duty? How many prison officers per capita
:35:10. > :35:17.are there in Norway? We don't know the broader picture. This is just an
:35:18. > :35:22.attempt to make it objectively, to you, it really does seem that you
:35:23. > :35:25.are quite unpleasant, your unpleasant desire to punish people
:35:26. > :35:33.is making you ignore the statistics that you have heard. More liberal
:35:34. > :35:37.prison regimes that give people opportunities make society safer by
:35:38. > :35:40.reducing the crime when those people come out of prison, you've just
:35:41. > :35:45.heard that, it seems really strange that you can't process it. I do
:35:46. > :35:49.think it is very risky comparing two different countries. I mean, Norway
:35:50. > :35:57.is an incredibly wealthy country. And it is a very different society.
:35:58. > :36:00.So is America. I think Norway has got a stronger economy because of
:36:01. > :36:07.its links with oil, it's got very strong welfare. I just think, I
:36:08. > :36:11.would be cautious. I'm sure there is a lot to be learned from the
:36:12. > :36:14.Norwegian system. I'm not coming down too much on one side or the
:36:15. > :36:21.other but I think we have to be very cautious comparing two countries.
:36:22. > :36:33.Bishop Toby. Some people are just irredeemable, are they not? I wonder
:36:34. > :36:37.if they are? I mean, who are we to say that somebody is or somebody
:36:38. > :36:40.isn't? The point is most of the people in prison are going to come
:36:41. > :36:45.out and the question is, are we going to enable them to live as our
:36:46. > :36:50.brother here has said in a way that is going to be positive for us all,
:36:51. > :36:53.or are we going to put them in a place where they will have to go
:36:54. > :36:57.straight back again. We haven't really talked about the economy in
:36:58. > :37:03.this. How much does it cost to repair, say, Birmingham, after that
:37:04. > :37:07.riot? If the money spent in repairing that prison could have
:37:08. > :37:11.been put in a few more prison officers to be working with you to
:37:12. > :37:16.enable that not to happen, isn't that better use of the money? To
:37:17. > :37:20.come in there, I think the debate has been reduced to staffing.
:37:21. > :37:26.Prisons have always been places of violence, suffering and death, since
:37:27. > :37:30.their inception in the 1770s. Prisons have always failed in terms
:37:31. > :37:34.of rehabilitation. Dozens are failed institutions. We cannot teach people
:37:35. > :37:42.how to be free in captivity. Two wrongs do not make a right. Our
:37:43. > :37:48.first debate was, is the system stacked against women? It is said as
:37:49. > :37:51.well that the prison system, the criminal justice system is stacked
:37:52. > :38:02.against women, is that right? Well, absolutely. Belinda is making a face
:38:03. > :38:07.beside you. I enjoy being sat here. We have a system built by men,
:38:08. > :38:13.designed by men, for men. There are just many, many things, for example
:38:14. > :38:17.when the system was rearranged, nobody thought what happens when
:38:18. > :38:22.women have babies in prison, if you look statistically of women in
:38:23. > :38:28.primary care before entering, the impact on family, and you get people
:38:29. > :38:33.in prisons that do not think about employment, that a woman would need
:38:34. > :38:36.a job and you get out. The whole journeyed there are different
:38:37. > :38:42.points. She's champing at the bit. I don't know where to begin. One point
:38:43. > :38:46.is that there is a lot more spent per woman in prison than per man in
:38:47. > :38:58.prison, women are much better funded in prison. For the same crime, men
:38:59. > :39:02.get much longer prison sentences. If you look closely at the data, for
:39:03. > :39:07.the same crime, men are likely to get longer prison sentences, they
:39:08. > :39:10.are also more likely to get sent to prison and more likely to have to
:39:11. > :39:15.sit through their prison sentences. There are also issues a family.
:39:16. > :39:18.People talk about 17,000 children without their mothers, this
:39:19. > :39:21.statistic is likely to be grossly exaggerated because it would suggest
:39:22. > :39:27.that each woman has got ten children. There are 150,000 children
:39:28. > :39:31.whose fathers are in prison. One thing they do with men, they will
:39:32. > :39:34.use as a punishment, they will say, you can't see your children because
:39:35. > :39:40.you've been bad. They would never do that with women. They absolutely do
:39:41. > :39:45.that with women. The reason why we are seeing an increasing number of
:39:46. > :39:49.people in prison, there is a constant thrust from society to
:39:50. > :39:57.punish more and more people but at the same time there's a constant to
:39:58. > :40:04.protect women. Our prison system heaves with injustice, and women
:40:05. > :40:08.from BME backgrounds, LGBT backgrounds, are disconnected
:40:09. > :40:14.against the board, it is set up, there is often a massive income
:40:15. > :40:18.inequality. Many people in our prisons are victims and my opening
:40:19. > :40:21.gambit was about, if prisons are going to work, they've got to work
:40:22. > :40:25.for victims which include some of the people. Thank you all very much
:40:26. > :40:27.indeed. You can join in all this
:40:28. > :40:29.morning's debates by logging on to bbc.co.uk/thebiquestions
:40:30. > :40:31.and following the link Or you can tweet using
:40:32. > :40:34.the hashtag #bbctbq. Tell us what you think
:40:35. > :40:37.about our last Big Question too - should religion have
:40:38. > :40:40.any role in politics? And if you'd like to apply
:40:41. > :40:43.to be in the audience at a future show, you
:40:44. > :40:48.can email audiencetbq@mentorn.tv. We're in Glasgow next week,
:40:49. > :40:51.Southampton on February 5th This week, Christian churches around
:40:52. > :41:04.the world begin marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant
:41:05. > :41:08.reformation in Europe. Martin Luther pinned his 95
:41:09. > :41:10.Articles to the church doors The two most senior bishops
:41:11. > :41:17.in the Church of England, the Archbishops of Canterbury
:41:18. > :41:20.and York, have called on the Church to repent its part
:41:21. > :41:23.in the Reformation, and to remember the many who died or were
:41:24. > :41:33.persecuted, both Roman Catholics and Anglicans, all in the name
:41:34. > :41:36.of the same Lord, Jesus Christ. In those times, Cardinals
:41:37. > :41:38.of the Catholic church or the archbishops of the Church
:41:39. > :41:41.of England were at the very heart of power in each
:41:42. > :41:44.Tudor monarch's court. And even now, 26 Church of England
:41:45. > :41:47.bishops still have seats Yet all the world's great
:41:48. > :41:50.faiths now have followers in today's United Kingdom,
:41:51. > :41:53.and only 49% of Britons say they are Christians,
:41:54. > :41:58.while 42% claim they have no religion at all, according
:41:59. > :42:00.to a 2015 YouGov poll. Should religion have
:42:01. > :42:13.any role in politics? There we are. Why did I know you
:42:14. > :42:17.were coming to me? The new White House is full of fundamentalist
:42:18. > :42:21.evangelical Christians, young earth creationists who believe that Jesus
:42:22. > :42:25.is coming soon, and they want it to happen soon, people who don't
:42:26. > :42:31.believe in climate change or don't care because it is a case of the end
:42:32. > :42:35.times, the rapture. They should not be allowed anywhere near power,
:42:36. > :42:44.these people. Are you asking? I'm not making a speech. Religious
:42:45. > :42:49.people in politics, that's an example, Bishop Toby, they shouldn't
:42:50. > :42:54.be allowed anywhere near it. One of the really terrible things about
:42:55. > :43:00.Donald Trump speech at his inauguration was when he asked God
:43:01. > :43:04.to bless that. But I do think that if religion is a part of some of,
:43:05. > :43:07.the source of our deepest motivations, our hopes, then it's
:43:08. > :43:11.got to be able to have a place in politics. Are you worried about some
:43:12. > :43:16.of those people at the centre of power? Of course I'm worried. They
:43:17. > :43:19.are religious people. Do you say we will keep religion out of question
:43:20. > :43:21.mark who else are you going to keep out question much everybody who has
:43:22. > :43:27.a view about something because you don't like it? The point is we bring
:43:28. > :43:29.into politics everybody we are, and if we are religious we have to be
:43:30. > :43:35.able to bring that into politics, to. I'm so sorry, I wanted to come
:43:36. > :43:40.to you in the last debate because I know you had something to say.
:43:41. > :43:43.Politics and religion are two massively different ideas, one is a
:43:44. > :43:49.leap of faith and of love and passion while the other is logic
:43:50. > :43:52.with passion removed. These are two massively different ideologies. Also
:43:53. > :43:58.when we look at religion in politics you can only look at the recent 70
:43:59. > :44:02.years, George Bush being fuelled by God in the invasion of Iraq, and the
:44:03. > :44:08.Holocaust, Hitler being motivated by his hatred of the dues. They are so
:44:09. > :44:12.separate. When you try to put politics and religion, what
:44:13. > :44:17.interpretation of that religion do you look at and who interprets it?
:44:18. > :44:23.Let's throw that Mary. People are passionate, without religion we
:44:24. > :44:29.would not, in this country, have had some of the great social movements,
:44:30. > :44:32.caring for the sick, in the past, lots of great social movements were
:44:33. > :44:40.driven by people's faith. I couldn't agree more. Right, next question!
:44:41. > :44:46.That is all very good, and I also agree with the idea that you can't
:44:47. > :44:52.keep people out of politics. We live in a democracy and in a democracy
:44:53. > :44:56.everybody over the age of 18 in this country should be able to enter
:44:57. > :45:01.politics if they wish to, that is a fundamental thing about democracy.
:45:02. > :45:05.The prison reform movement, abolition of the Atlantic slave
:45:06. > :45:09.trade... Exactly, we will have people in legislatures and
:45:10. > :45:12.governments who have political views, and that is absolutely fine,
:45:13. > :45:15.but it is what you do with them, and a lot of good has come from people
:45:16. > :45:19.who have done that, absolutely right. But it is when these things
:45:20. > :45:24.come together and there are difficulties that you have to do
:45:25. > :45:27.then look at what your Government, for instance, is about, and the
:45:28. > :45:34.difficulty comes when people try to oppose and do things against the
:45:35. > :45:36.Government which has been elected by a democratic election. On
:45:37. > :45:45.conscientious objection, that is a good thing? Not necessarily, some of
:45:46. > :45:50.the things where the wisdom is that conscientious objection is right,
:45:51. > :45:53.such as reductive -- reproductive rights and abortion, abortion is
:45:54. > :45:57.accepted in this country and if you have a move to change that
:45:58. > :46:00.legislation I don't think there should be conscientious objection.
:46:01. > :46:03.If you are religious and don't agree with it and you are in Government,
:46:04. > :46:09.you have to think yourself about how you deal with that. I think that is
:46:10. > :46:13.the right point that Mary and the Bishop have made, we live in a
:46:14. > :46:17.liberal democracy, individuals will always have their religious or
:46:18. > :46:19.humanist beliefs, or nonreligious beliefs, which will compound them to
:46:20. > :46:24.do certain things one way or another, that is good, you listed
:46:25. > :46:27.social reform that religious people were involved in, you could do the
:46:28. > :46:32.same with people with no religious belief as well. People do things
:46:33. > :46:37.because of their beliefs, that is fine. Groups lobby as well, churches
:46:38. > :46:41.lobby, that is fine as well. The problem comes when people take
:46:42. > :46:45.religion into Government and start legislating on the basis of it and
:46:46. > :46:54.bring religion together with power. You mentioned some of the people now
:46:55. > :47:02.in donald-macro's White House, it is implementing those things will all,
:47:03. > :47:05.you see that all over the world. We have such religious diversity in
:47:06. > :47:09.this country, do we not have to do something to reflect that in the
:47:10. > :47:13.House of Lords, not just having 26 Church of England... It is all about
:47:14. > :47:17.representation. If there needs to be 26 people in the House of Lords
:47:18. > :47:25.representing fatal and nonfatal, there must be a better way to do it.
:47:26. > :47:31.Having non-quez-macro Or saying, we have got 25% of the senses Kristian,
:47:32. > :47:37.25% non-believers, we could quote that if we wanted to. There is no
:47:38. > :47:40.clear distinction between religion and politics, religion is an
:47:41. > :47:43.improvement of the South, politics is an improvement Society, and the
:47:44. > :47:47.improvement of the Selt should help you improve society which helps you
:47:48. > :47:55.prove yourself, so one improves the other, there no clear definition.
:47:56. > :47:59.Very difficult to know... One of the issues here, the faith leaders that
:48:00. > :48:04.politicians listen to have not been democratically elected, and I agree,
:48:05. > :48:07.we don't have a problem that people have religious opinions and bring
:48:08. > :48:14.that into politics, the problem is these faith leaders, for example the
:48:15. > :48:17.Pope, does not represent the opinion of most Catholics who use
:48:18. > :48:21.contraception, so the problem is when established religion comes in
:48:22. > :48:25.and get privileges. It is also a consequence of the change of
:48:26. > :48:29.religious authority where in previous generations they were
:48:30. > :48:33.looked up to buy a lot of adherents of tradition whereas now, given the
:48:34. > :48:36.Internet and the way society has changed, religious authority itself
:48:37. > :48:42.is very different. Let's go to the audience. My Judaism drives forward
:48:43. > :48:47.my beliefs and the way I work in this world. You will not find any
:48:48. > :48:50.key piece of legislation in any country that isn't based on some
:48:51. > :48:54.religious principle. I am not allowed to murder somebody, it is
:48:55. > :49:04.against the law. Where does that come from? The ten Commandments. It
:49:05. > :49:08.predated the ten Commandments! Fine, but it is certainly codified in
:49:09. > :49:11.those instructions given to us as human beings as how to act with each
:49:12. > :49:16.other. Religion drives these things forward, it is what makes people go
:49:17. > :49:18.into politics and not just do things because they want the power, they do
:49:19. > :49:24.it because they believe that they want to change the world. Human
:49:25. > :49:32.beings' behaviour read the Bible, not the other way round. We could
:49:33. > :49:35.get into a long discussion about who wrote the Bible! I'm happy to accept
:49:36. > :49:40.it could be that the Bible was written by human beings, but who
:49:41. > :49:44.inspired that? Who was the thinking behind it, where did it come from?
:49:45. > :49:48.Read the Bible, re-creation is close to Darwin's theory of evolution,
:49:49. > :49:52.there is no separation between scientific laws and religious laws.
:49:53. > :49:56.You can bring them together and so long as you don't act in the
:49:57. > :50:03.extreme... It makes evolutionary sense not to kill somebody in your
:50:04. > :50:06.own tribe. I don't this is ready disagree but it is worth pointing
:50:07. > :50:09.out that politics today and the world we are living in today and the
:50:10. > :50:12.political questions we face are more complicated than those faced by the
:50:13. > :50:16.writers of the Bible, you did not have to deal with the potential
:50:17. > :50:21.destruction of the planet by climate change or the need for complicated
:50:22. > :50:24.states to deal with hyper diversity in religious and other terms or
:50:25. > :50:28.reconcile questions on a much larger global scale that we have to
:50:29. > :50:32.reconcile today like justice, equality and fairness and so on,
:50:33. > :50:36.Andy Powell as human beings hold over our destiny which is greater
:50:37. > :50:40.than in the past. -- and the power human beings hold. So one of the
:50:41. > :50:43.problems that I mentioned earlier is when you start ignoring these and
:50:44. > :50:48.giving inappropriate answers, so those states in the world that are
:50:49. > :50:51.completely religious like Saudi Arabia or Iran, or those states
:50:52. > :50:56.where religion is very much a part of the state but the state is not
:50:57. > :51:00.completely religious, like Pakistan, I think tends to rank low on scales
:51:01. > :51:04.of justice of equality and social fairness in the world and that is
:51:05. > :51:08.partly because they are using religious ways of dealing with big
:51:09. > :51:15.questions which are old-fashioned. If we want to talk about the
:51:16. > :51:20.Commandments, thou shalt not kill, bear full swing this, steel, those
:51:21. > :51:23.are three basic that predate religion, they essentially you don't
:51:24. > :51:26.need to be religious to take those things into your morality, so what
:51:27. > :51:32.is special about people who might have a belief in a supernatural
:51:33. > :51:36.divine being that qualifies them in anyway to be part of a political
:51:37. > :51:41.process? They are talking about eternity, not the political cycle.
:51:42. > :51:46.The question is, is it based in the way our society is and our world is?
:51:47. > :51:49.As a Christian, I would say that is the case because God made it that
:51:50. > :51:53.way, so if we are living according to those, we are living according to
:51:54. > :52:01.the grain of the way God made it, so that is the point. I'm a person of
:52:02. > :52:05.faith, it is all about the next thing, I live in this world, I can
:52:06. > :52:10.see the problems Andrew is talking about about global injustice, if the
:52:11. > :52:14.journey of faith was you find faith and then you die, basically, because
:52:15. > :52:19.it is about rapture and the next world, that is not what it is, it is
:52:20. > :52:24.working out those values, all kinds of different fates uphold justice
:52:25. > :52:26.and equality and so much is about interpretation because I would
:52:27. > :52:31.absolutely not align myself with many of the things that happened at
:52:32. > :52:34.the inauguration so much is about interpretation but at its best...
:52:35. > :52:42.You are just criticising someone else's religion now! This is how
:52:43. > :52:47.divisive religion can be! This is true! Religion and politics are
:52:48. > :52:50.about serving communities, about others and getting rid of your own
:52:51. > :52:54.power to empower other people's power. Melinda, we have not heard
:52:55. > :52:58.from you for a while, your eyes sparkling with a need to come in on
:52:59. > :53:06.this. Should religion have a role in politics? I think religion does have
:53:07. > :53:12.a role in politics because we are motivated, if you do have a faith,
:53:13. > :53:18.often it is that which drives you forward, and whatever you might
:53:19. > :53:23.believe, you were saying about thou shalt not kill, and maybe this is
:53:24. > :53:31.what God has said, it perhaps gives an extra authority to it, I'm not
:53:32. > :53:36.sure about that, but I think our religion plays an important role in
:53:37. > :53:42.the individual conscience which then influences how we act in politics.
:53:43. > :53:45.I'm also a person of faith, and we can have maybe the same religious
:53:46. > :53:50.belief but we might have very different ways of putting that into
:53:51. > :53:57.practice. So I think that religion does influence individuals and
:53:58. > :54:01.individuals influence politics. Theresa May is the daughter of a
:54:02. > :54:04.vicar, maybe she will bring some of that... She gave a good answer to
:54:05. > :54:07.this question Roger was asked, even though I don't agree with a lot of
:54:08. > :54:13.her policies like the expansion of state schools, -- of faith schools,
:54:14. > :54:16.when she was asked, she said, I do have religious beliefs but in that
:54:17. > :54:21.country we tend to keep these things to ourselves, and that was a good
:54:22. > :54:25.answer! Merhi, I would as do the question but it is all stacked
:54:26. > :54:30.against women here! What I would like to say, we have talked about
:54:31. > :54:34.people with faith and bringing fates to politics, and of course as you
:54:35. > :54:38.said in your introduction, 42% of people in this country don't have a
:54:39. > :54:42.religious faith and I think it is important to get through this idea
:54:43. > :54:47.that you have morality dependent on religion. It isn't. Most people,
:54:48. > :54:50.apart from maybe some of the people we are talking about in prison in
:54:51. > :54:56.the earlier debate, the vast majority of people across the world
:54:57. > :55:00.have morals, morality, have a basis for their lives and how they live
:55:01. > :55:04.them which is what we all agree as a moral basis and there is a consensus
:55:05. > :55:10.about what that is. It doesn't actually depend on a religious
:55:11. > :55:17.faith. Look at somewhere like Pakistan with the blasphemy law and
:55:18. > :55:23.the religious laws there. Massively, massively anti-human rights law and
:55:24. > :55:27.it needs to be repealed, absolutely. Going back to the marches yesterday,
:55:28. > :55:32.a lot of the concerns that a lot of women had, especially in America, is
:55:33. > :55:35.this idea that Trump is surrounded by these men who basically don't
:55:36. > :55:40.believe in abortion, don't believe in the right to the woman to have
:55:41. > :55:44.control over her body and her reproductive choices... A lot of
:55:45. > :55:48.Catholics watching would take the same stance, driven by their stance,
:55:49. > :55:51.and they have every right to believe it. Everybody has a right to
:55:52. > :55:55.practice their religion as they see fit, I have no concerns about that.
:55:56. > :55:59.Many people I speak to have no concerns about that either, but what
:56:00. > :56:03.is concerning is when you have people in power dictating policy
:56:04. > :56:07.which will then impact not just men but women in America, this is one of
:56:08. > :56:12.the reasons why so many of us wanted to stand in solidarity with women
:56:13. > :56:15.who are now seeing all the choices and changes made under Obama, all
:56:16. > :56:22.the improvements, now being taken back brick by brick. Obama had a
:56:23. > :56:27.very interesting quote... I don't think we have got time for an
:56:28. > :56:30.interesting quote! We are at the end! But thank you all very much
:56:31. > :56:31.indeed for your participation, thank you!
:56:32. > :56:34.As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.
:56:35. > :56:36.Next week we're in Glasgow, so do join us then.
:56:37. > :56:40.But for now, it's goodbye from Bradford and have a great Sunday.
:56:41. > :56:44.We will see you very soon. Thanks once again to our excellent audience
:56:45. > :57:02.here. APPLAUSE.
:57:03. > :57:07.To break someone physically... Agh! ..is not a problem.