:00:00. > :00:07.Triggering Brexit - who should get a say?
:00:08. > :00:09.Money for nothing - on the state and slavery,
:00:10. > :00:31.Today we're live from Hutchesons' Grammar School in Glasgow.
:00:32. > :00:36.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
:00:37. > :00:43.This week, the Supreme Court announced its long-awaited decision
:00:44. > :00:47.over Brexit - the UK Parliament must be allowed a vote to trigger Article
:00:48. > :00:51.50 before formal negotiations can begin with the European Union.
:00:52. > :00:55.But while giving a voice to MPs in Westminster,
:00:56. > :00:57.the court quashed legal hopes of a similar vote in
:00:58. > :00:59.the Scottish Parliament or the Northern Irish
:01:00. > :01:04.Now, cast your mind back to 2014 and you may recall that membership
:01:05. > :01:08.of the European Union was an interesting factor
:01:09. > :01:11.It emerged that should Scotland leave the UK,
:01:12. > :01:13.it would have to reapply for membership of the EU
:01:14. > :01:18.In the event, 55% voted to remain in the UK and 45%
:01:19. > :01:26.And this year, 62% in Scotland voted to stay in the EU and 38% to leave.
:01:27. > :01:28.Given this unexpected change of circumstances, morally,
:01:29. > :01:36.is Scotland still owed a say over Brexit?
:01:37. > :01:45.It's a very interesting part of this whole debate. These are interesting
:01:46. > :01:49.times in which we live. Sam, is this about the UK now or is it about
:01:50. > :01:54.Scotland? I think it's absolutely about the UK and this decision has
:01:55. > :01:58.to be made plaintively as part of the United Kingdom. Scotland chose
:01:59. > :02:02.to remain part of the United Kingdom and to have international affairs,
:02:03. > :02:08.memberships of foreign organisations made collectively as the UK, so
:02:09. > :02:13.Scotland should have a say. But it's 59 MPs in Westminster should be the
:02:14. > :02:19.ones making that decision. The possibility of another referendum on
:02:20. > :02:25.Europe, and put your hands up if you want to say anything, what sort of
:02:26. > :02:28.assay should Scotland have? There will be debate on whether Article 50
:02:29. > :02:35.should be triggered, great repeal Bill deciding whether to retain bits
:02:36. > :02:39.of EU law into UK law and the final deal that Theresa May manages to
:02:40. > :02:42.negotiate in Brussels. So there will be a say at all stages in the
:02:43. > :02:47.parliamentary process. Scottish citizens have a right to elect those
:02:48. > :02:50.MPs. The decision was made to stay in the United Kingdom and the
:02:51. > :02:55.decision was made to leave the European Union and that's a double
:02:56. > :03:00.bolt, and that means it's all about the UK? That's right. OK, people of
:03:01. > :03:05.Scotland, good morning full stop put your hands up, what do you want to
:03:06. > :03:13.say about this? Lady in the red. Unfortunately I was off work for
:03:14. > :03:15.five months after an operation so I got to see all the news bits that
:03:16. > :03:21.came across during the Brexit debate. The fact is a lot of
:03:22. > :03:26.communities in England and some in Scotland have been left behind since
:03:27. > :03:28.97, since Margaret Thatcher in the 80s, and people have watched
:03:29. > :03:32.children remain unemployed for a long time, grandchildren starting to
:03:33. > :03:37.remain unemployed and are frightened, and I think that gave
:03:38. > :03:44.impetus to the Brexit Fred. You want change? I do. The political parties
:03:45. > :03:47.have left these communities behind, they haven't helped them, and it's
:03:48. > :03:52.the same in America. What's the answer? If I had that I'd be Prime
:03:53. > :03:56.Minister. But it's the same in America, the bottom line, a lot of
:03:57. > :04:00.the communities that voted for Donald Trump are still communities
:04:01. > :04:04.where they have lost their main industry and that has never been
:04:05. > :04:09.helped. These people have also been left behind and their reaction is to
:04:10. > :04:15.vote for someone like Donald Trump. So taking it home, is the answer
:04:16. > :04:20.another independence referendum? The lady, there. Not at all, because we
:04:21. > :04:23.voted to stay part of the union and leave the EU and that's exactly what
:04:24. > :04:31.the Democrats should be listening to, that's what we voted for. At
:04:32. > :04:36.Hang on, you've got the Supreme Court which was under a lot of
:04:37. > :04:40.pressure from parts of the popular press, they came to that considered
:04:41. > :04:42.and meticulously judged opinion, they looked at everything stop blue
:04:43. > :04:51.which the sill Convention, all which we
:04:52. > :04:55.understood to be a pretty tungsten, muscular piece of machinery that
:04:56. > :04:59.meant Westminster could not dabble in Scottish Parliament affairs
:05:00. > :05:02.really, actually it means pretty well nothing. Like much of the
:05:03. > :05:06.entrenchment of Scottish parliament it could be abolished overnight
:05:07. > :05:11.right now if Westminster felt like it. So ultimately it is about the UK
:05:12. > :05:14.Parliament? We've learned something from that knock-back, the weakness
:05:15. > :05:20.of the mechanism we were told powerful. The next thing is, do the
:05:21. > :05:25.people who work the Nissan, are they part of the UK? Because they've got
:05:26. > :05:28.an opt out. What about the people of the City of London? We understand
:05:29. > :05:33.they are getting a little opt out organised. If there is not a deal
:05:34. > :05:35.done for Ireland the peace process will falter. Gibraltar probably
:05:36. > :05:41.needs an opt out. There are deals being done all over the place but
:05:42. > :05:44.the one place not being given a look in is the one place that voted
:05:45. > :05:51.sizeable to stay in the EU, Scotland. Membership of the European
:05:52. > :05:57.Union has always been that the UK is the member state, not Scotland. Why
:05:58. > :06:02.can everybody else have an opt out? It's not an opt out. They are being
:06:03. > :06:08.consulted and the government will take into account the interests. The
:06:09. > :06:13.City of London will remain in Europe. Theresa May has promised to
:06:14. > :06:17.make a deal that tries to deal with all the different interests as part
:06:18. > :06:24.of the United Kingdom. Except ours. No single interest can get
:06:25. > :06:28.everything they want. I think you are being quite unfair. One of
:06:29. > :06:33.Theresa May's first actions when she became Prime Minister was to come to
:06:34. > :06:37.Scotland to meet Nicola Sturgeon. They are meeting tomorrow as well.
:06:38. > :06:44.David Mundell net with my grassland Derek McInnes, there is an ongoing
:06:45. > :06:51.dialogue, Scotland is very much part of negotiations. But David Cameron
:06:52. > :06:54.during the independence campaign, he said, look, if you vote for
:06:55. > :06:59.independence, when it comes to joining the euro, you're going to
:07:00. > :07:03.have to go to the back of the queue, so people voted under a false
:07:04. > :07:10.pretence. No, I don't think so. And that remains the case today. We've
:07:11. > :07:14.had two clear, fair, decisive and legal referendums. On the first one
:07:15. > :07:20.the people of Scotland voted to remain in the union. As part of that
:07:21. > :07:26.United Kingdom they decided to leave. Don't worry John, I've got my
:07:27. > :07:32.eye on you and I know you are going to burst out of the traps any
:07:33. > :07:38.second, I can hardly hold you back. Guy Standing, you wanted to come in?
:07:39. > :07:42.The first thing is, as somebody who was profoundly against the folly of
:07:43. > :07:45.the referendum, it is one of the worst mistakes are British
:07:46. > :07:53.government has ever made. The EU referendum? The referendum on Brexit
:07:54. > :07:56.was a folly. We have to remember that only 67% of the Scottish
:07:57. > :08:03.electorate actually voted at all, lower than the rest of the United
:08:04. > :08:08.Kingdom. And in a sense, logically, if you had a separate vote in
:08:09. > :08:13.Scotland from the vote that should be taking place in the house of
:08:14. > :08:18.parliament, in the Commons, you would be giving the Scots a double
:08:19. > :08:23.vote. Because Scottish MPs, most of whom are SNP, will have a vote on
:08:24. > :08:30.Article 50 and the rest of it in the House of Commons. And I profoundly
:08:31. > :08:37.hope that they will all stand up and vote against going for Article 50.
:08:38. > :08:40.We'll see what will happen. But I do think this double vote issue is
:08:41. > :08:46.something that should be taken into account. I think the big problem is
:08:47. > :08:51.that the UK constitution isn't fit for purpose for the political
:08:52. > :08:55.reality that exists now. Even unionists in Scotland believe
:08:56. > :08:59.Scotland should have a say in the Brexit vote. What does a say mean?
:09:00. > :09:06.It's about power. You referred to both David Cameron and Theresa May.
:09:07. > :09:09.First visit she made as Prime Minister was to come and tell Nicola
:09:10. > :09:16.Sturgeon and Scotland that we were equal partners. The UK judges
:09:17. > :09:19.unanimously batted the Scottish issue back to the politicians
:09:20. > :09:24.because they know they can't deal with it. What should have happened
:09:25. > :09:27.in Britain is that we should be like Australia where an Australian
:09:28. > :09:33.referendum, each state, all states have to vote in a referendum, if one
:09:34. > :09:36.state objects or votes no, for instance, it doesn't go through.
:09:37. > :09:40.There is no English Parliament, that's the problem. I know, that's
:09:41. > :09:45.why I'm saying the constitution is not fit for purpose. But there is a
:09:46. > :09:48.political reality here, and the politicians know that, and we are
:09:49. > :09:55.stuck in a real morass at the moment. And probably the solution is
:09:56. > :10:03.Theresa May should possibly go to the country and say, let's have
:10:04. > :10:11.indie rest 2, because Scotland is obviously not happy that
:10:12. > :10:15.# IndyRef America to. David, I don't think you are up for IndyRef two,
:10:16. > :10:21.but who is up for that, here? Do you think it would go through?
:10:22. > :10:28.Potentially would on the basis that the first IndyRef, we started with
:10:29. > :10:35.10% and got up to 45%. Said the wind is in your sales. Has Brexit helped,
:10:36. > :10:40.and the Supreme Court judgment of Scotland being excluded?
:10:41. > :10:45.Potentially. All the Unionist parties were sitting there saying,
:10:46. > :10:49.you want to be part of the EU, vote to stay, and now we are not part of
:10:50. > :10:56.the EU. We were given the vote on false pretences. Lets get a word
:10:57. > :11:00.from you, and then John Curtice. I think the IndyRef idea is a good
:11:01. > :11:06.one, there was so much misleading information leading up to the Brexit
:11:07. > :11:14.campaign, Scottish people should have the right to make an informed
:11:15. > :11:17.judgment. John Curtis, couple of things for you before we get the
:11:18. > :11:25.current state of Play and opinion on independence as to whether this has
:11:26. > :11:28.given further impetus to Indyref two and the march towards an independent
:11:29. > :11:36.Scotland. It just struck me that Simon said the UK constitution is
:11:37. > :11:43.not fit for purpose. European, the EU rules and regulations, do they
:11:44. > :11:50.take account of a nation which is part of the member state having a
:11:51. > :11:55.say in its own future after that nation secedes from the European
:11:56. > :11:59.Union? The answer is that Article 50 says that a notification for Article
:12:00. > :12:05.50 has to be in accordance with the country's constitutional procedures.
:12:06. > :12:08.The European Union in effect will suspect the procedures of the member
:12:09. > :12:14.state if it wishes to leave. The fact that the European Union is, on
:12:15. > :12:16.occasion, willing to listen to some state governments, as illustrated in
:12:17. > :12:22.the row about the trade agreement with Canada when the while in
:12:23. > :12:28.Parliament was at least in theory in position to stop that deal.
:12:29. > :12:32.Basically the European Union says it's up to the member states to
:12:33. > :12:36.decide for itself. Not the substate? It is up to them to decide how it is
:12:37. > :12:41.going to leave and what are the rules under which it decides. If it
:12:42. > :12:47.is a powerful substate it can decide. The tiny Faroe Islands opted
:12:48. > :12:56.out of the EU when Denmark joined in 1973 and that's because they had a
:12:57. > :13:00.powerful enough government, it could sign international treaties. Spain
:13:01. > :13:04.will have no truck with substate is for obvious reasons. But it has been
:13:05. > :13:09.done, there are lots of exceptions. To come back to your big question
:13:10. > :13:13.which is about the possibility of a second independence referendum. The
:13:14. > :13:16.truth is that neither side in this debate is in a comfortable position.
:13:17. > :13:22.The first thing one needs to understand, yet it is true that 55%
:13:23. > :13:27.of people in Scotland voted in favour of staying inside the UK, but
:13:28. > :13:31.you have to understand that only 55% voted to stay. In effect that
:13:32. > :13:35.referendum failed to solve or to settle the issue of whether or not
:13:36. > :13:39.Scotland should remain in the UK. The only consequence of that
:13:40. > :13:43.referendum was to make Scotland a much more problematic member of the
:13:44. > :13:48.UK than it previously had been, so that is the difficulty on the
:13:49. > :13:51.Unionist side. And the fact we leaving the European Union is a bit
:13:52. > :13:56.of an embarrassment given the arguments were used in the campaign.
:13:57. > :13:59.The trouble on the nationalist side, trying to link a second independence
:14:00. > :14:02.referendum and a yes vote to Brexit is that what we now know is that one
:14:03. > :14:08.in three of those people who voted to leave the United Kingdom, yes to
:14:09. > :14:11.independence, actually voted to leave the European Union. And the
:14:12. > :14:16.nationalist movement in Scotland is not united on the issue of Brexit.
:14:17. > :14:19.What we have discovered is that there are some people who are
:14:20. > :14:22.sufficiently upset about the UK leaving the European Union that they
:14:23. > :14:26.would now back in independent Scotland, but they have been matched
:14:27. > :14:29.by an equal number of people who are now sufficiently happy about the
:14:30. > :14:32.prospect of the UK leaving the EU that they would now stick with the
:14:33. > :14:39.UK rather than a Scotland which would wish to remain in the EU. The
:14:40. > :14:43.net effect is that we are still at a 55-45 vote. Some have changed their
:14:44. > :14:44.views, but both sides, the unionist and nationalist communities, are
:14:45. > :14:53.divided as a result of Brexit. Interesting. What a brain!
:14:54. > :14:58.APPLAUSE A lot of people watching, everyone
:14:59. > :15:04.in the UK, they would not have appreciated that particular... Not a
:15:05. > :15:09.fact you have a brain! That particular statistic, really
:15:10. > :15:15.interesting. David, leader of Ukip in Scotland, this is... This
:15:16. > :15:19.programme is not about so much the political and legal, this is about
:15:20. > :15:26.the moral, the rights and wrongs. Scotland is a nation, Scotland has
:15:27. > :15:31.been cast adrift by English nationalism and they are no longer
:15:32. > :15:37.going to be part of the EU. Scotland has to have a concrete palpable say
:15:38. > :15:43.in its own future. I agree with a lot of what Professor John Curtice
:15:44. > :15:51.said. You will not win a referendum on it. More importantly, the EU,
:15:52. > :15:58.when Nicola Sturgeon had her summit, we are quite good chums, I had a
:15:59. > :16:04.chat with him, he said, we cannot remain in the EU, Scotland entered
:16:05. > :16:08.the EU as part of the UK, it must leave as part of the UK and then
:16:09. > :16:14.reapply. It will have to reapply after Turkey and goodness knows who.
:16:15. > :16:23.We have a 7 billion deficit thanks to the SNP. Wait, what do you mean?
:16:24. > :16:27.Listen, what do you mean by reapply after Turkey? There are certain
:16:28. > :16:34.human rights standards Turkey will not qualify for four decades. If at
:16:35. > :16:39.all. Scotland will. We will have to reapply. We do not have...
:16:40. > :16:42.APPLAUSE There is no central bank. We will
:16:43. > :16:50.have to accept the euro which is a catastrophe. Some countries will
:16:51. > :16:54.crash out in the next year or so. The euro is very unstable. We would
:16:55. > :16:58.have to accept the euro. We would have to have an international border
:16:59. > :17:03.50 miles from Edinburgh. Not a good idea. We do four times as much
:17:04. > :17:07.business with the rest of the UK than we do with the EU. Presidential
:17:08. > :17:11.is said we have no chance, we have to leave, we decided in the
:17:12. > :17:18.referendum on Scottish independence to remain British. We subsequently
:17:19. > :17:26.decided to, in a different way, with the EU, but it was 60-40. That is a
:17:27. > :17:31.good proportion of the Scottish population who do not want to be in
:17:32. > :17:37.the EU. It is not a big victory, as Professor John Curtice said. This
:17:38. > :17:41.notion of Scotland being a part of the single market and the rest of
:17:42. > :17:51.the UK not being, that is just fanciful. That is unworkable. It is
:17:52. > :17:55.not. It works in lots of different countries to have different levels
:17:56. > :17:59.of integration with Europe. All of the Nordic countries have everything
:18:00. > :18:03.from Finland in the Euro and in Europe to Iceland out of both of
:18:04. > :18:09.them and they have had one travel area for 40 years before Schengen
:18:10. > :18:14.was devised. If you have a will politically, you can find it. It is
:18:15. > :18:18.not present in the UK. The thing to say about what has been analysed by
:18:19. > :18:23.John and what David picked up on, it is probably right Europe is not the
:18:24. > :18:27.burning issue that will bring them to want another independence
:18:28. > :18:31.referendum, but what is possibly is that if we are ignored on as big an
:18:32. > :18:34.issue about trade and relations with Europe and everything that comes
:18:35. > :18:39.with that, completely ignored to date in the negotiations, what hope
:18:40. > :18:48.have we to be heard on anything else? Professor? The moral issues, I
:18:49. > :18:58.appreciate the politics is compelling. It is a moral issue, are
:18:59. > :19:03.we being heard? When we talk about democracy, little scientists used
:19:04. > :19:09.the term deliberative democracy, democracy is the way in which we
:19:10. > :19:13.settle things by discussion. That is fundamental to what a democracy is
:19:14. > :19:20.about. The second thing, Liberal Democrat C, we respect the rights of
:19:21. > :19:27.minorities -- liberal democracy. Both of those have been absent in
:19:28. > :19:30.most of the Brexit debate. People treat it as a settled issue. I am
:19:31. > :19:34.horrified by the Bill currently in Parliament which does not say it
:19:35. > :19:38.will be subject to discussion, it does not say Parliament will discuss
:19:39. > :19:44.the issues, it says all power will be invested in the Prime Minister.
:19:45. > :19:51.That is all it says. I think we have to worry here that not just that
:19:52. > :19:55.Scotland is not being consulted, the population is not being engaged in
:19:56. > :20:01.the process. What a feather John Curtis was describing is a nation
:20:02. > :20:07.divided -- Professor John Curtice. We can probably agree. Let us have a
:20:08. > :20:14.process of discussion and resolution that protects the minorities. You
:20:15. > :20:19.are right that we need discussion and consultation. The issue is about
:20:20. > :20:23.whether there is a veto. On specifically Article 50, there will
:20:24. > :20:27.be days of debate in Parliament, MPs will have their chance to have a
:20:28. > :20:31.say. The bill specifically is about simply giving ministers the power to
:20:32. > :20:37.trigger Article 50, not about the future relation with the EU, it is a
:20:38. > :20:42.very specific thing. It is important not to exaggerate. Do you think
:20:43. > :20:47.anyone will be consulted on any other aspect on this? Why don't you
:20:48. > :20:55.accept the democratic will of the majority? We voted as Great Britain.
:20:56. > :21:02.Did the referendum say, we want to be in or out of the single market?
:21:03. > :21:08.The president made it very clear. That is one Guy. One more president
:21:09. > :21:14.reference and you are out. He is the most influential figure in the
:21:15. > :21:25.European Union. How long is his post? He is gone now! Simon, there
:21:26. > :21:31.will be a white paper, what is the problem with that? How many days
:21:32. > :21:36.will they spend discussing it? Three to five days. The maestro treaty was
:21:37. > :21:42.discussed for 42 days in the House of Commons. The Government is trying
:21:43. > :21:46.to ram this through, a battle has been won here by the forces of the
:21:47. > :21:53.right who have always hated Europe. They are backed up by the rabidly
:21:54. > :22:02.right wing anti EU predominantly UK press and 37% of our restricted
:22:03. > :22:05.franchise voted for an advisory referendum in a parliamentary
:22:06. > :22:12.democracy and all of these facets do not fix together to provide a
:22:13. > :22:17.solution people will accept and be happy... I am a supporter of Labour
:22:18. > :22:22.and a member and Jeremy Corbyn is wrong about this, there should be a
:22:23. > :22:28.free vote and I would urge all Labour MPs to vote with their
:22:29. > :22:37.conscience. Thank you. Let us not confuse the Bill and the white
:22:38. > :22:39.paper. I wonder what Mr Schulz thinks about this next debate? I
:22:40. > :22:43.know he watches every week! If you have something
:22:44. > :22:45.to say about that debate, log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,
:22:46. > :22:48.and follow the link to where you can We're also debating live this
:22:49. > :22:52.morning from Hutchesons' Should the state give
:22:53. > :22:55.everyone a basic income? And should today's generation
:22:56. > :22:57.make amends for slavery? So, get tweeting or emailing
:22:58. > :22:59.on those topics now, or send us any other ideas
:23:00. > :23:01.or thoughts you may 87 years ago, the great economist,
:23:02. > :23:12.John Maynard Keynes, wrote a book called The Economic Possibilities
:23:13. > :23:20.for our Grandchildren. One of his startling predictions
:23:21. > :23:24.was that in the future - that's now - rising living standards
:23:25. > :23:30.would mean we could all choose to be working much less,
:23:31. > :23:32.perhaps just 15 hours a week, We all know what happened instead -
:23:33. > :23:37.some people are working much longer hours, others have no work at all,
:23:38. > :23:40.and globalisation is taking advantage of the cheapest places
:23:41. > :23:45.in the world to produce everything. Now other economists are suggesting
:23:46. > :23:49.that if everyone was given a basic income by the state,
:23:50. > :23:52.the workload and the profits from capitalism could be
:23:53. > :23:54.shared out more evenly. Well, Finland is trying this out,
:23:55. > :24:01.and here in Glasgow, a local councillor wants this city
:24:02. > :24:04.to give it a whirl too. Should the state give
:24:05. > :24:19.everyone a basic income? Basic income, how would this work?
:24:20. > :24:26.Everybody would get this, right? The idea is every individual, man, woman
:24:27. > :24:30.and child, a lesser amount, should receive each month a basic amount
:24:31. > :24:37.and that is to be decided by Parliament, as a right.
:24:38. > :24:41.Unconditional in behavioural terms. The reasons for supporting a basic
:24:42. > :24:45.income are threefold, fundamentally. Can I just stop you? Why should
:24:46. > :24:51.everyone get it question what footballers, barristers... Let me
:24:52. > :24:54.explain in a second when I have said the philosophical and moral
:24:55. > :25:00.justification. The first is, the wealth and income of all of us in
:25:01. > :25:03.society is far more to do with the contributions of previous
:25:04. > :25:07.generations. We have a collective wealth much more than anything we do
:25:08. > :25:13.ourselves. If you allow private inheritance, we should have a
:25:14. > :25:17.return, a social dividend, to the collective wealth of society. It is
:25:18. > :25:25.a right. That is an idea associated with Thomas Paine, socialists and so
:25:26. > :25:29.on, going back a long way. There is a strong philosophical tradition.
:25:30. > :25:32.The second reason, the moral reason, is that if people had a basic
:25:33. > :25:38.income, they would have a greater sense of freedom, what we call
:25:39. > :25:41.Republican freedom, in the sense that it would mean they have a
:25:42. > :25:46.greater ability to say no to arbitrate domination by figures,
:25:47. > :25:52.bureaucrats, fathers, husbands and others. And a greater ability to say
:25:53. > :25:56.yes if they wanted to do something paying a low-wage but they would
:25:57. > :26:02.like to do it but they cannot afford it. That sense of freedom is
:26:03. > :26:08.something that has been lost in the developments you have briefly
:26:09. > :26:13.described. Alec income in equalities and securities have multiplied --
:26:14. > :26:18.our income. A healthier society? We are not in a healthy society if a
:26:19. > :26:24.large majority of feeling quality insecure and it leads to the third
:26:25. > :26:29.justification. We need a good society in which everybody has basic
:26:30. > :26:34.security. The psychologists, the economists, they have shown that if
:26:35. > :26:38.people have basic security in a mental sense, psychological sense,
:26:39. > :26:43.they have better mental health, better mental bandwidth in other
:26:44. > :26:48.words, higher short-term IQ, they are able to make decisions more
:26:49. > :26:56.rationally and they are able to feel less stressed. That is a real need
:26:57. > :27:02.in a modern open society. The fourth thing which is not so moral but it
:27:03. > :27:07.is indicative of the crisis is that the income distribution system of
:27:08. > :27:12.the 20th century has broken down irretrievably. Our wages, our real
:27:13. > :27:17.wages, in Europe, in the US, Germany, France, the UK, they have
:27:18. > :27:20.been stagnant for 30 years. They have become more volatile. People
:27:21. > :27:27.are facing more insecurity. If we continue, we will see populists of
:27:28. > :27:30.the far right in particular playing on the fears and insecurities of a
:27:31. > :27:38.growing number of people and that means that because basic income has
:27:39. > :27:44.become more popular, it is not only robots, but the fear of far right...
:27:45. > :27:50.Automation, I want to come to that in a second. If you are driving a
:27:51. > :27:53.big company, by taxing them more, there might be more in automation so
:27:54. > :28:04.it might be counter-productive. Who likes this? I meant, I don't like
:28:05. > :28:06.it. OK, let me rephrase that? Who doesn't like it?
:28:07. > :28:14.LAUGHTER Why not? I think it is very much a
:28:15. > :28:22.socialist idea and with a lot of socialist ideas, they are not
:28:23. > :28:26.practical. If socialists understood economics, they would not be
:28:27. > :28:38.socialists. It is pretty much that simple. It is not a practical thing
:28:39. > :28:46.to do. Yeah? Mass inequality we have in society, that is the situation we
:28:47. > :28:53.have got, we have got individuals with money, it is not being
:28:54. > :28:56.distributed. Stress, as one of our guests alluded to, it is one of the
:28:57. > :29:03.biggest things. That stress people are in, it is crippling our society.
:29:04. > :29:08.Unhappy stressful society. Taking it back to the guy in the grey T-shirt.
:29:09. > :29:13.I do not think anyone has exactly what the issue was, it is not the
:29:14. > :29:17.sort of universal basic income, as I said, I think it is a nice idea and
:29:18. > :29:20.it would be great if everyone could do that, everyone would love it if
:29:21. > :29:26.it was feasible for everyone to have a set amount of income where they do
:29:27. > :29:30.not have to worry about rent, food bills, but I do not think it is
:29:31. > :29:33.something that is necessarily feasible and we have to look
:29:34. > :29:37.somewhere else for another idea. Do you like this idea?
:29:38. > :29:48.I do. I think most of us will accept the current welfare system is a
:29:49. > :29:53.bureaucratic nightmare. But when we're talking about relieving stress
:29:54. > :30:03.and anxiety, I have experienced some of that in Glasgow. I'm part of an
:30:04. > :30:09.organisation which does a tea run every Thursday night in Glasgow.
:30:10. > :30:12.Speaking to the folk who come along, I hear the stories of some of the
:30:13. > :30:21.sanctions that they have had. There are no stories that I have heard
:30:22. > :30:26.that did not appear in I, Daniel Blake. If I can take the point about
:30:27. > :30:29.sanctions, you want to try this in Glasgow. Let's follow the point so
:30:30. > :30:37.articulately expressed by that lady, there. You have to also think about
:30:38. > :30:39.individuals basic needs. If you are thinking about the extra needs that
:30:40. > :30:43.might pertain in a certain household you will still have to have an
:30:44. > :30:51.assessment, won't you? There has to be in and -- there must be an
:30:52. > :30:54.acknowledgement that some people live more expensive lives. If there
:30:55. > :31:00.was a disability you would have to make an assessment. You back into
:31:01. > :31:07.the bureaucratic morass. Nothing approaching what we
:31:08. > :31:14.. Nothing approaching what we have now. I am a socialist. One of the
:31:15. > :31:22.books I cherish is a book signed by Nye Bevan, it sits in my office. And
:31:23. > :31:29.he oversaw rapid expansion of the welfare system, the birth of the
:31:30. > :31:36.NHS, the start of a mass house-building programme. And he did
:31:37. > :31:41.it motivated by that thought that this, the fear people particularly
:31:42. > :31:44.experienced during the great depression, what coloured the
:31:45. > :31:49.thinking of many of the people of his generation. I think it is one of
:31:50. > :31:56.the great tragedies of our time, the welfare system, rather than removing
:31:57. > :32:03.fear has become the cause of it. Let me ask you... It is pernicious but
:32:04. > :32:06.it is more than that, it is about rights, it is about Masters and
:32:07. > :32:11.servants. Too often when people approach the welfare system for
:32:12. > :32:16.support they feel like they are approaching a master. Let me ask you
:32:17. > :32:19.this, the current benefits bill is about 217 billions pound. The
:32:20. > :32:31.estimated cost of this would be ?304 billion. That's a lot of difference,
:32:32. > :32:36.isn't it? ?90 billion difference. Who calculated that? Those are
:32:37. > :32:40.estimated costs I was looking at earlier. How would you pay for that?
:32:41. > :32:44.You save money on the prison system and you look at the tax system. What
:32:45. > :32:49.would you do about the tax system? If you want to tackle inequality you
:32:50. > :32:55.have to do something about assets tax being distributed. Big
:32:56. > :32:58.companies? One of the discussions in Scotland is around land taxes and I
:32:59. > :33:02.think that is a key part of this. One of the key drivers of inequality
:33:03. > :33:05.in my lifetime has been the concentration of asset wealth in
:33:06. > :33:13.fewer and fewer hands and that needs to be tackled as well. Does this
:33:14. > :33:19.work? The question of how you pay for it is quite critical for basic
:33:20. > :33:21.income. The moral judgments are extremely strong, the practical
:33:22. > :33:26.arguments are strong, we have seen it work with Child benefit. Paying
:33:27. > :33:31.for it is the issue. We cannot take this to a good and ?17 billion or
:33:32. > :33:35.however we calculated move that into basic income, because that covers
:33:36. > :33:41.older people and and sickness and a large number of other things. All
:33:42. > :33:46.the schemes that I've seen make assumptions about taking money away
:33:47. > :33:51.from people who got benefits. Nearly all of those schemes leave poor
:33:52. > :33:54.people know better off, some of them, including the citizen incomes
:33:55. > :33:59.trust scheme, actually make poorer people worse off. The second problem
:34:00. > :34:04.related to this is the sheer size of what's needed. If you've got, let's
:34:05. > :34:10.save the Scottish Greens proposal suggests we'll need ?140 billion in
:34:11. > :34:14.tax. If you've got ?140 billion to spend on a fairer tax system which I
:34:15. > :34:18.wouldn't necessarily be averse to, how do you spend it? Would you want
:34:19. > :34:24.to spend it on this when we're not poor people better off, and not
:34:25. > :34:31.rather put it into health or education or public sector? What
:34:32. > :34:38.about investment... In a second. What about higher tax for the big
:34:39. > :34:44.companies and the dangers some would argue of leading it abroad and jobs
:34:45. > :34:48.in this country dwindling? I'm not sure that that's a moral argument,
:34:49. > :34:55.that's about the practicalities of how much money raised by tax. Let's
:34:56. > :34:58.be clear, the way in which basic income works, what makes it fair is
:34:59. > :35:04.that everybody is paying tax as well. The difficulty you've got, I'm
:35:05. > :35:09.afraid, is that in some cases the poorest people and people on the
:35:10. > :35:13.lowest incomes to pay tax in a way that would not be sustainable. If
:35:14. > :35:18.those problems could be resolved, I would be much more supportive. I
:35:19. > :35:27.think it's important to realise that this is a nonsense. What, this
:35:28. > :35:32.programme? What are you saying? It is a nonsense saying you have two
:35:33. > :35:35.lower benefits for other groups. Why? This can be conceived as a
:35:36. > :35:42.scheme that you build up by building a capital fund and realising that at
:35:43. > :35:45.the current state, not only is our welfare system a total mess that
:35:46. > :35:50.acts as a disincentive for people to take low-wage jobs, but, for
:35:51. > :35:58.example, suddenly we are able to afford to pay out ?375 billion in
:35:59. > :36:03.quantitative easing to give to the banks. How can you say we can't
:36:04. > :36:08.afford it when we are doing that sort of thing? In this country we
:36:09. > :36:15.have cut corporation tax. It used to be 52%, then it was cut to 28%. In
:36:16. > :36:22.other words they only pay 28%. Now it has been lowered to 20%. The
:36:23. > :36:29.government says it is lowering it to 17%. We may become a tax haven.
:36:30. > :36:35.Exactly. Don't tell me we can't afford a basic income when we giving
:36:36. > :36:38.this a way in subsidies. David? So long as we are in the European Union
:36:39. > :36:43.the idea of it is completely ridiculous because you'd have
:36:44. > :36:49.everybody turning up on our door stop, you know that and I know that.
:36:50. > :36:55.No, no, no. We coming out of the European Union anyway. You can't do
:36:56. > :36:58.this, where do you get the money from? It's just simply not
:36:59. > :37:11.practical, it is airy fairy nonsense. I have shown in my book
:37:12. > :37:24.that you can afford it. For example we have a care crisis, right? I'm
:37:25. > :37:30.all for reform. Wait a minute everyone! Everyone is talking across
:37:31. > :37:32.each other and people at home can't hear what is going on, you can't
:37:33. > :37:39.hear each other and I can't hear myself think and if it carries on
:37:40. > :37:42.I'm leaving. Leslie. The caring thing, at the moment there are lots
:37:43. > :37:45.of people that would like to do caring jobs but they can't afford to
:37:46. > :37:50.do that because it's such low wages, they then get into the benefits
:37:51. > :37:54.trap. There are all sorts of reasons. Now the way we have got
:37:55. > :37:58.care friend at the moment, we can't afford to be putting out the full
:37:59. > :38:04.paid nurses, doctors and so on that could deal with people. Can I ask
:38:05. > :38:07.you something? This is a pump primer for people to have the freedom to do
:38:08. > :38:14.caring things and that's what we need. Can I ask you something? In an
:38:15. > :38:20.independent Scotland, presumably you would like to have a system like
:38:21. > :38:22.this, universal basic income, in an independent Scotland within the
:38:23. > :38:28.European Union you would also buy into freedom of movement, so would
:38:29. > :38:31.everybody who came to this country from Bulgaria, Estonia, wherever,
:38:32. > :38:36.come to Scotland, would they be entitled to this basic income, yes
:38:37. > :38:39.or no? Here's the strange thing, if Glasgow gets the go-ahead it's going
:38:40. > :38:43.to have a pilot. Fife is having a pilot. Who else question mark
:38:44. > :38:51.Barcelona, Amsterdam, Finland. All those countries are in the EU. So
:38:52. > :38:54.freedom of movement would be entitled to the universal basic
:38:55. > :38:59.income? At the moment that is the case because you have a means tested
:39:00. > :39:02.system. If you had a basic income system, whatever rules you or we
:39:03. > :39:07.might like to apply, you could apply a simple rule by saying only when
:39:08. > :39:12.people have been in the country for several years with they qualify for
:39:13. > :39:15.the basic income, and treat the needs of migrants separately. Is
:39:16. > :39:22.that a good system? Only when they have been in the country in for a
:39:23. > :39:30.few years. I'm rather liberal when it comes to matters of immigration.
:39:31. > :39:34.So I think that is something, I don't deny that is a difficult
:39:35. > :39:38.thing, but why I support a pilot in Glasgow is because we need to figure
:39:39. > :39:44.out how to work out the practicalities. You have heard from
:39:45. > :39:47.some people speaking against it that this is not practical, it's pie in
:39:48. > :39:50.the sky, people were saying that about the NHS and it has worked out
:39:51. > :39:58.rather well, I think, for all its flaws. What this is about, a
:39:59. > :40:02.comprehensive system, for me it's not about the rise of the robots,
:40:03. > :40:06.it's about the relationship between the individual and the state. And
:40:07. > :40:13.changing that relationship from the state being the master to setting
:40:14. > :40:17.people free. I'm fed up with the political right owning the word
:40:18. > :40:19.freedom, I want the political left and socialism to be about freedom
:40:20. > :40:25.and I think this can deliver freedom. If I can make one more
:40:26. > :40:30.point. We've only got 30 seconds left. The care system is in crisis
:40:31. > :40:35.and I'm glad this has come up, 60,000 carers in this city and they
:40:36. > :40:38.are expected to volunteer, they are forced into it effectively because
:40:39. > :40:42.they love people. And they are told that if they manage to care for 35
:40:43. > :40:50.hours a week they would be lucky enough to get 60 odd quid. That's
:40:51. > :40:54.not taxable, morally, -- that's not acceptable morally in any shape or
:40:55. > :40:59.form. I know you are something of a fan of Donald Trump, would you like
:41:00. > :41:05.to see us take a leaf out of his book and turn our backs on
:41:06. > :41:11.globalisation, Scotland first? I think Donald Trump is irrelevant to
:41:12. > :41:16.this. Globalisation, Donald Trump, isolation. The social system needs
:41:17. > :41:20.to reform, it's got to be sorted out, it's a mess, especially in
:41:21. > :41:24.Scotland, the SNP government made a dog 's dinner of it. We need to sort
:41:25. > :41:29.it out, nobody disagrees. What we want to see is people at the bottom
:41:30. > :41:33.end of the taxation system taken out, that's what we've been
:41:34. > :41:36.campaigning for. People on low incomes should be taken out of the
:41:37. > :41:43.taxation system altogether, that makes sense, that's logical. You
:41:44. > :41:49.still have a poverty trap problem. You don't deny that the unlimited
:41:50. > :41:55.number of people coming to the UK, you'd have queues at the border of
:41:56. > :41:58.people trying to get in. We are going to have to leave it there but
:41:59. > :42:05.we have a very interesting debate forthcoming. For now thank you very
:42:06. > :42:09.much indeed. Thank you for coming in and expressing so clearly what that
:42:10. > :42:12.was all about, very intriguing. Strong arguments on both sides.
:42:13. > :42:15.You can join in all this morning's debates by logging
:42:16. > :42:16.on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and following the link
:42:17. > :42:19.Or you can tweet using the hashtag #bbctbq.
:42:20. > :42:22.Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too.
:42:23. > :42:24.Should today's generation make amends for slavery?
:42:25. > :42:26.And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience
:42:27. > :42:28.at a future show, you can email audiencetbq@mentorn.tv.
:42:29. > :42:30.We're in Southampton next week, Leicester on February 12th
:42:31. > :42:46.235 years ago, 133 African slaves bound for Jamaica were deliberately
:42:47. > :42:55.drowned in the Caribbean by British sailors aboard the slave ship, Zong.
:42:56. > :42:58.They were chained together at the ankles, weighed down
:42:59. > :43:00.with metal balls and cast into the deep.
:43:01. > :43:02.The ship's owners could then claim compensation
:43:03. > :43:11.A few weeks ago, the Jamaican government chose the Zong massacre
:43:12. > :43:15.to represent the high human cost of slavery and to reassert its claim
:43:16. > :43:18.that the UK should formally apologise and make financial
:43:19. > :43:22.reparations for running a slave colony on the island for 200 years.
:43:23. > :43:25.Glasgow, where we are today, was just one of the ports to profit
:43:26. > :43:30.London, Bristol and Liverpool did too.
:43:31. > :43:37.Should today's generation make amends for slavery?
:43:38. > :43:44.And if so, how? Sandra, when we walk through the streets of Glasgow and
:43:45. > :43:50.many of the other great maritime cities of the United Kingdom, what
:43:51. > :43:53.kind of misery is etched in the Stones?
:43:54. > :44:03.If you look in the centre of Glasgow, you can see the proceeds of
:44:04. > :44:07.transatlantic slavery and how that benefited the economic growth of
:44:08. > :44:12.this city. It is interestingly mentioned London, Liverpool and
:44:13. > :44:18.Bristol. Both London and Liverpool have formally apologised for their
:44:19. > :44:24.contributions to the transatlantic slavery and placement of Africans.
:44:25. > :44:30.Can you make judgments on the past? Slavery is endorsed in the holy
:44:31. > :44:37.books, in the Bible, the Koran. Can we cast judgments on the past
:44:38. > :44:43.estimate absolutely. Even the debates we have had already today.
:44:44. > :44:46.-- the past? We learn from the past and it is what helps us change the
:44:47. > :44:54.future. Have we got anything to apologise for? Absolutely. It is not
:44:55. > :44:58.about as an individual having a link to slavery but we have reaped the
:44:59. > :45:04.rewards of slavery and colonialism in this country. The UN, the
:45:05. > :45:06.committee for the elimination of racial discrimination, they have
:45:07. > :45:11.said that the Scottish Government that those historical moments in our
:45:12. > :45:17.history should be compulsory within the education system and currently
:45:18. > :45:22.they are not. The slave trade, conservative estimates say 12
:45:23. > :45:28.billion people were taken from Africa, some of the more Afrocentric
:45:29. > :45:32.historians say it was a lot more, it could well be a lot more, what about
:45:33. > :45:39.the people driven off the land in Scotland, the Irish potato famine,
:45:40. > :45:46.the massive Arab slave trade and Africans trading Africans? It is a
:45:47. > :45:53.very complicated situation. What is not complicated is that slavery was
:45:54. > :45:56.about property and ownership. If you were an enslaved African, you had
:45:57. > :46:03.absolutely no rights, you were treated... Is completely different
:46:04. > :46:11.to any other kind of servitude happening at the same time. It is
:46:12. > :46:15.arguable. Michael Fry. Slavery was a terrible and horrible thing but the
:46:16. > :46:19.fact is that in the past, it was not against the law. There is nothing in
:46:20. > :46:30.the Bible, for example, that condemns slavery. The dues were
:46:31. > :46:37.slaves in Egypt and God sent the plate but it was because they were
:46:38. > :46:43.Egyptians. St Paul says that in Jesus Christ is neither slave nor
:46:44. > :46:49.free. It did not matter what your social status was. But it is not a
:46:50. > :46:55.condemnation of slavery. It accepts that slavery is a fact of life, as
:46:56. > :47:01.slavery was a fact of life until the 18th century. You are talking about,
:47:02. > :47:08.you jumped from the law and straight from legal situations to using a
:47:09. > :47:13.faith group, the Bible. When you think about slavery, you are correct
:47:14. > :47:20.when you say it was enshrined in law and that is the key thing, it was a
:47:21. > :47:26.loud, like it was OK to treat people inhumanely. I personally feel we
:47:27. > :47:33.have to understand that as a country we allowed that to happen and I
:47:34. > :47:39.think there is still a lot of... Michael. It was a global thing.
:47:40. > :47:43.Should the whole 21st-century, everyone living in the 21st century,
:47:44. > :47:49.apologised to everyone living in the 18th century? This is ridiculous.
:47:50. > :47:53.And what difference would it make? I think it would make a big
:47:54. > :47:57.difference, particularly looking at the city of Glasgow and the amount
:47:58. > :48:02.of people who are black minority ethnic who live in this city, just
:48:03. > :48:06.over 12% and it is growing, I think if we invested in the fact these
:48:07. > :48:09.people contributed and their ancestors, including my own,
:48:10. > :48:14.contributed to the history of Scotland, contributed to the
:48:15. > :48:22.Enlightenment, I think that is an important... What about other
:48:23. > :48:26.countries? Because of British pressure, partly, they made it
:48:27. > :48:33.illegal to have slavery in Saudi Arabia, in the Yemen, in the early
:48:34. > :48:36.60s. The Arab slave trade, there are many countries that should
:48:37. > :48:42.apologise, many countries who profited. We are in a very difficult
:48:43. > :48:47.situation. One of the issues of Scotland is, we talk about the
:48:48. > :48:50.Enlightenment, Scotland and the abolition movement, yes, the
:48:51. > :48:55.abolition movement helped to stop slavery, but it did not look for
:48:56. > :48:59.equality, it did not want the enslaved African people to be equal
:49:00. > :49:04.in human terms. That is something this generation has the opportunity
:49:05. > :49:11.to address. Human rights was in nascent form, the concept was barely
:49:12. > :49:17.recognised. Nice to have you back on the programme. I try my best to be
:49:18. > :49:21.fair and I accept everything, this is about Jamaica, the Caribbean, I
:49:22. > :49:24.would turn it around and say ?10 million Jamaica received from
:49:25. > :49:29.building prisons, perhaps that should be put into hospitals? When
:49:30. > :49:36.we spoke to a lot of Caribbean people, we did a survey and over
:49:37. > :49:41.2000 people said they would rather money, if there is money left in the
:49:42. > :49:45.pot, by the time it came to me, I would get 50p, that we would
:49:46. > :49:48.transfer that to hospitals, infrastructure in the Caribbean. We
:49:49. > :49:53.are talking about Jamaica specifically or the Caribbean, an
:49:54. > :49:59.apology was sort of received from Tony Blair but it was not quite, I
:50:00. > :50:04.am sorry. We all know legally, once you say sorry, the lawyers will come
:50:05. > :50:14.out. It cannot be done. I regret it happened. What about the... The
:50:15. > :50:18.massive scar on our society of what happened in the past, it casts a
:50:19. > :50:28.long shadow in the wake we perceive ourselves and in the way we regard
:50:29. > :50:31.the other. That is in the past. Why should the 20th-century young people
:50:32. > :50:37.have to apologise? What I would suggest people do when people ask
:50:38. > :50:43.people like me who work in the Caribbean community, this is what
:50:44. > :50:47.most of us would like, yes, an apology, and this is what we would
:50:48. > :50:51.do, build schools, infrastructure in the Caribbean, something like that,
:50:52. > :50:56.and you talk about history, the BBC had a brilliant programme last year
:50:57. > :51:01.about black history, that was fantastic. Things like that, we need
:51:02. > :51:07.to see them in schools. Education. We have museums in certain countries
:51:08. > :51:13.already, in areas, Liverpool, Bristol, that is the kind of
:51:14. > :51:20.thing... We are in complete agreement about that. If you go into
:51:21. > :51:24.the George Square, there are 12 statues there, all of the statues
:51:25. > :51:30.had a direct link or in direct link to slavery. Those people and even
:51:31. > :51:34.the streets in Glasgow, the plantation owners, the business
:51:35. > :51:39.owners, they are the people who are celebrated. It is about looking at
:51:40. > :51:42.it differently. It is not about saying not having that street names
:51:43. > :51:52.but giving the real history of who those people are. It is about
:51:53. > :51:56.acknowledgement and awareness. I find the moral stance quite
:51:57. > :52:02.appalling. I do not believe in this transfer of moral sponsor political.
:52:03. > :52:07.The SS guards in the concentration camps could have said to the Jewish
:52:08. > :52:12.children they were shovelling into the gas chambers if the children
:52:13. > :52:17.said, what have we done? They would say, you have done nothing, but you
:52:18. > :52:21.are morally responsible. That was the necessary argument. Do you
:52:22. > :52:28.believe in amoral transference of guilt to contemporary Germany? --
:52:29. > :52:35.amoral transference. It is not my subject area. I am here to talk
:52:36. > :52:42.about... It is a moral issue and part of it. David Coburn, the shame?
:52:43. > :52:47.Not my subject, I cannot understand that. I am not going to make
:52:48. > :52:52.comparisons with the Holocaust. I felt that is what the question was
:52:53. > :52:57.asking me to do and I am not in a position to do that. The
:52:58. > :53:02.transference of moral guilt. Slavery is an appalling thing and it still
:53:03. > :53:05.is and it is still happening and I think instead of worrying about what
:53:06. > :53:10.happened in the past, although you should never forget what happened in
:53:11. > :53:15.World War II, we should be worrying about modern-day slavery and we
:53:16. > :53:20.should look at the Taliban, for example, who want to win slave
:53:21. > :53:26.women. I am a feminist and I believe in ladies' writes. Leslie taught me
:53:27. > :53:32.about that at school. You were at school together? Yes. I want young
:53:33. > :53:36.girls to get the same opportunities to go to school and not be paid
:53:37. > :53:42.servants in the household. We worry about that. Until 1923 in North
:53:43. > :53:49.Africa, there was still slavery. It was the Royal Navy... The Atlantic
:53:50. > :53:55.slave trade was incomparably evil. The Royal Navy suppressed the slave
:53:56. > :53:59.trade. William Wilberforce in Parliament got rid of the slave
:54:00. > :54:03.trade. One of the first countries in the world. That should never be
:54:04. > :54:06.forgotten. Let me get people who have come here to specifically talk
:54:07. > :54:12.about this. What about the role of religion? Can you condemn people in
:54:13. > :54:19.the 18th century for believing the Bible? No, we cannot condemn them
:54:20. > :54:24.for believing the Bible. Slavery endorsed in the Bible. I would like
:54:25. > :54:29.to point out, using the fact that the slave trade happened in the
:54:30. > :54:36.Bible to justify it happening is out of place because the Bible as a holy
:54:37. > :54:48.book has to report it as it is. The fact some people... It does not
:54:49. > :54:54.justify it. Abraham and others... Hang on, New Testament as well? The
:54:55. > :55:00.fact all of these things happened in the Bible does not mean the Bible
:55:01. > :55:05.condones it. We can understand people for inferring it does.
:55:06. > :55:10.Slaves, about your earthly masters, in singleness of heart, as you obey
:55:11. > :55:15.Christ, in order to please them... This is disgusting. It is not
:55:16. > :55:23.condoning the slave trade. There are things we are doing today, today we
:55:24. > :55:28.do not see anything wrong with it, what was going on in their mind?
:55:29. > :55:35.That is what happened. In the Bible, the fact the Bible reported it, the
:55:36. > :55:43.downside of the people we refer to as the Saints, they had their dark
:55:44. > :55:49.side. Looking back, the slave trade was wrong then and it is still wrong
:55:50. > :55:54.today and it will be Brom tomorrow -- be wrong tomorrow. Hands up in
:55:55. > :56:02.the audience, gentlemen there in the black. Quick points. The thin end of
:56:03. > :56:07.a very big wedge. This happened eight generations ago. Nobody here
:56:08. > :56:10.is responsible for that. Around the same time of the Highland
:56:11. > :56:15.clearances, human being is were replaced by sheep. Not as brutal in
:56:16. > :56:18.anyway, but it was in its own way brutal. People were evicted and they
:56:19. > :56:24.would have died in the process. They came to the lowlands. Should
:56:25. > :56:28.Scotland be suing England for that? We have done terrible things, human
:56:29. > :56:34.beings. What would you like to say? I think we are quite wealthy a
:56:35. > :56:39.country and we got there based on a lot of the slave trade. I think we
:56:40. > :56:44.do owe a lot of what we have now to these nations that we have abused
:56:45. > :56:49.and I think that we do owe them something. The trend is wealth of
:56:50. > :56:56.this nation, much of it was built on the slave trade to this day. It was
:56:57. > :57:00.built on hard work and usually by people underpaid and sometimes in
:57:01. > :57:07.this country and in others. Tobacco, cotton. Thanks to Wilberforce and
:57:08. > :57:11.Parliament, the Royal Navy suppressed the slave trade. The US
:57:12. > :57:18.still had massive slavery. We were suppressing it. Britain can take a
:57:19. > :57:22.very high... Guy Standing. We must make an apology because the slave
:57:23. > :57:27.trade enriched our country, much of the wealth we have today is because
:57:28. > :57:33.of slavery. I also think we ought to be paying more attention to current
:57:34. > :57:36.day slavery and devoting more resources as a reflection of the
:57:37. > :57:42.moral commitment to fighting existing slavery. It is not
:57:43. > :57:45.appreciated how many contracts the British Government makes with
:57:46. > :57:48.countries that openly sanction having slavery.
:57:49. > :57:55.APPLAUSE One of the most beautiful findings
:57:56. > :58:01.we have had with our basic income pilots in developing countries is
:58:02. > :58:07.that it has enabled a number of people who have been slaves in debt
:58:08. > :58:12.bondage for generations to be able to fund the purchase of freedom and
:58:13. > :58:18.that is one of the most wonderful results we have seen in Africa and
:58:19. > :58:23.India. Michael Fry, ten seconds, how careful do we have to be about the
:58:24. > :58:28.definition of a slave? We have to be very careful indeed. For example,
:58:29. > :58:34.Glasgow was not built on the slave trade, it was built on trade with
:58:35. > :58:37.colonies which had slaves on their plantations. Thank you very much for
:58:38. > :58:39.that clarification. We have to leave it there.
:58:40. > :58:42.As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.
:58:43. > :58:44.Next week, we're in Southampton, so do join us then.
:58:45. > :58:47.But for now, it's goodbye from Glasgow and have a great Sunday.