:00:00. > :00:00.Today on The Big Questions: asylum seekers, deciding your gender,
:00:07. > :00:24.and British children living in poverty.
:00:25. > :00:27.Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
:00:28. > :00:31.Today we're live from Oasis Academy Lord's Hill in Southampton.
:00:32. > :00:37.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
:00:38. > :00:39.This week there's been more protesting against President Trump -
:00:40. > :00:42.this time over his new immigration policies for people entering America
:00:43. > :00:52.But Britain's moral high ground looks pretty shaky.
:00:53. > :00:54.Last week a report by the Home Affairs Select Committee
:00:55. > :01:00.slammed the quality of accommodation used to house many asylum
:01:01. > :01:03.seekers in the UK as "a disgrace" and "shameful".
:01:04. > :01:04.Filthy, vermin-infested conditions, inadequate support for vulnerable
:01:05. > :01:08.people, contractors housing far more people than they are funded
:01:09. > :01:13.for and asylum claimants being concentrated in a small number
:01:14. > :01:15.of highly deprived areas while richer towns and
:01:16. > :01:22.Can Britain be proud of its treatment of asylum seekers?
:01:23. > :01:33.What do you think. What do my guests think. Gulwali Passarlay, ten years
:01:34. > :01:43.ago, how many countries did you go from Afghanistan to here. I came
:01:44. > :01:48.here at 12 and I'm grateful for being given protection and allowed
:01:49. > :01:51.here and given the opportunity to study and become educated. But also
:01:52. > :02:06.I feel there is the issue with the system. The system is not fit for
:02:07. > :02:11.purpose. It is inhumane. You have used the word subhuman. What was the
:02:12. > :02:16.default position to you. I was in the hands of traffickers and
:02:17. > :02:22.smuggers and I was in prison in almost every country. I was treated
:02:23. > :02:28.inhumanely across Europe. But in the UK I felt relief, because I wanted
:02:29. > :02:34.to meet my brother. But there was a sense of disbelief in me, but I was
:02:35. > :02:40.seen as a criminal. Suspicion? Yes, that it was my fault I was here. My
:02:41. > :02:43.country was bombed. Although Social Services and immigration authorities
:02:44. > :02:48.were trying to help me, they were making me feel, they were making me
:02:49. > :02:52.lose hope and feel like I was a subhuman and the authorities and
:02:53. > :02:59.Social Services were looking at me as a statistic rather than a person.
:03:00. > :03:04.Should we be ashamed? I think we should in terms of national policy,
:03:05. > :03:13.over the last two decades, it has been hostile to refugees. Daniel
:03:14. > :03:20.Hannan when we hear these stories, where is our come passion? Depends
:03:21. > :03:26.whether we want to flaunt our come passion or do what needs to be done.
:03:27. > :03:30.We are the biggest donor of age to Syrian refugees and we can house
:03:31. > :03:35.more families in the front line states than here. You have to make a
:03:36. > :03:39.judgment. The real issue is that we have unprecedented people movements
:03:40. > :03:43.in peacetime. Not all related to refugee status. I spent part of last
:03:44. > :03:50.year volunteering in a hostel in Italy for people who had come across
:03:51. > :03:55.the Mediterranean and the guys there were mainly west African lads and
:03:56. > :04:00.were brave optimistic boys, and I hope I would have done what they did
:04:01. > :04:04.in their situation. But none was a refugee as we define it. They were
:04:05. > :04:11.fleeing from poverty and corruption rather than persecution. We need to
:04:12. > :04:16.find some way, because no country can take unlimited numbers of
:04:17. > :04:27.deciding who gets in. To say anyone can jump the queue by paying
:04:28. > :04:33.smugglers get a better claim is a definition of a inhumane policy. Do
:04:34. > :04:38.you think we are proud. Yes, Britain has given sanctuary to people... We
:04:39. > :04:45.do have a fabulous record and we have spent more than anyone else on
:04:46. > :04:49.Syrian refugees. But our system is a shambles, yes, because we have out
:04:50. > :04:55.of control immigration and we have no border control. We take 39,000
:04:56. > :04:59.people a year in Sweden. That is many more. This isn't the point. We
:05:00. > :05:04.have had, over here in about the last ten years there have been
:05:05. > :05:11.something of the order of 660,000 people seeking asylum. That is on
:05:12. > :05:16.top of a migration over the same period of about six million or part
:05:17. > :05:22.of that. And the two things have got confused. We should have a higher
:05:23. > :05:28.proportion of asylum seekers to migrants, but when people are
:05:29. > :05:35.seeking asylum you should, if you're an asylum seeker, you seek asylum in
:05:36. > :05:39.the first country you come to. This isn't happening and our system is
:05:40. > :05:45.clogged up and has numbered the numbers in four years. So they have
:05:46. > :05:51.to go for the cheapest housing in the poorest areas, so the system is
:05:52. > :05:55.a mess, until we address the border problem of uncontrolled borders and
:05:56. > :06:00.economic migration, we won't help the most persecuted. I think our
:06:01. > :06:04.borders are controlled and anyone who applies for asylum can be sent
:06:05. > :06:11.back if they have no groupeds for asylum. It is not very well known
:06:12. > :06:19.how difficult it is to make a claim stick. Why are you shaking your
:06:20. > :06:24.head. The statistics tell you otherwise. At least half of people
:06:25. > :06:32.who are refused end up staying and the process of appeals goes and of
:06:33. > :06:37.that 660,000 who claimed it, probably two to three hundred
:06:38. > :06:43.thousand are here who were not given it. Britain is at its best when it
:06:44. > :06:47.acts and does the fair share. Britain hasn't taken enough
:06:48. > :06:53.refugees. The borders are tight. It took me five years to get refugee
:06:54. > :07:00.status. We should be proud of our record. Should we still be proud?
:07:01. > :07:03.No, tinge I think the people should be proud, but the Government, the
:07:04. > :07:09.state has failed the good will of the people and we make a
:07:10. > :07:19.differentiation between the people and the establishment if that makes
:07:20. > :07:24.sense. That word come passion is important, because we can have hard
:07:25. > :07:31.line policies and we may need them and we are a small island and can't
:07:32. > :07:35.take every single asylum seeker. But I'm conscious having lived abroad
:07:36. > :07:44.that I'm, you know there by circumstances of my birth. And it is
:07:45. > :07:49.pure luck that I happen to have grown in a comfortable country, but
:07:50. > :08:00.it is an accident of my birth and we must have that sense of come
:08:01. > :08:09.passion. And not just statistics. Anyone in the audience who wants to
:08:10. > :08:15.talk? Should we be proud? I think the word come passion is important
:08:16. > :08:22.here, I think some people use the word to say feeling sorry for or
:08:23. > :08:27.taking pity on. For me it is a blend of empathy and wisdom and thinking
:08:28. > :08:32.clearly about things and I think as human beings from a humanitarian
:08:33. > :08:38.point of view, we need to recognise that anyone who has come from a
:08:39. > :08:45.war-torn area and has been trafficked, who is seeking asylum is
:08:46. > :08:50.the same as us. We would do the same if we were... If this was Syria, we
:08:51. > :08:55.would do the same and would do anything to get to safety. That is
:08:56. > :09:00.Daniel's point about economic migrants, we would do the same. It
:09:01. > :09:03.used to b the American dream. There are increasing numbers doing it and
:09:04. > :09:07.we don't have the capacity to allow everyone in. That is in a sense a
:09:08. > :09:11.statement of obvious. One thing you see is people when they arrive
:09:12. > :09:21.across the Med, the first question they were asking when I in Italy
:09:22. > :09:26.was, where is the Wi-Fi. The smart phone was making possible a journey
:09:27. > :09:31.that their parents couldn't consider. We have an unprecedented
:09:32. > :09:39.movement. What should we do about the boats? We have to break the
:09:40. > :09:46.linking between getting on a boat and being allowed to stay in Europe.
:09:47. > :09:50.Until we break that link we will have an unlimited number. You don't
:09:51. > :09:57.solve the crisis by stopping people coming. I think that somebody said
:09:58. > :10:01.that there is no way that you would put your children on a boat, unless
:10:02. > :10:09.the sea is less dangerous than the land. And I think that that is the
:10:10. > :10:16.crisis. How do you break the link? You break the link by positive
:10:17. > :10:22.action and actually making sure that you treat the needs of these people
:10:23. > :10:27.to reach safety positively. Because in the vacuum of public policy,
:10:28. > :10:34.private enterprise will go into the gap and we only take 3% of all of
:10:35. > :10:39.Europe's migrants, all of Europes asylum seekers, Germany took 35%.
:10:40. > :10:43.Talking about breaking the link between being on a boat and being
:10:44. > :10:49.allowed to stay in Europe, what you're talking about is cutting
:10:50. > :10:54.people off at the shore. We need to shift policy back, so we are given
:10:55. > :10:58.safe treatment to people who have come here and we are looking at the
:10:59. > :11:02.circumstances that are driving people out of their homes and out of
:11:03. > :11:08.societies that they have invested in and they love and they would not be
:11:09. > :11:13.leaving unless they were under the most dire duress. There is a problem
:11:14. > :11:18.in the majority of refugees tend to be young men. There is a huge
:11:19. > :11:24.stranded population of women and children who aren't able to make the
:11:25. > :11:27.journeys in the same way and because we have basically surrendered any
:11:28. > :11:33.sense of liberal interventionism, we are not doing anything to help
:11:34. > :11:39.support governance and safety in the nations that need it. So we need
:11:40. > :11:45.safe and legal routes, so they don't pay traffickers and risk their
:11:46. > :11:51.lives. Last year 5,000 people lost their lives of the because of our
:11:52. > :11:54.inaction. They are not crazy to leave their countries, they leave
:11:55. > :11:58.because they have no choice. A million would people would qualify
:11:59. > :12:05.if we said anyone fleeing poverty and corruption, how many billions
:12:06. > :12:08.would come here? It is easy to virtue signal and a lot of people
:12:09. > :12:13.are putting out their come passion. How people are prepared to take in a
:12:14. > :12:22.male economic migrant to live in their home? Put your hand up if...
:12:23. > :12:26.Wait a minute everyone. Cathy. You posed a question. You suggested to
:12:27. > :12:32.whom we should put that question. The audience. Let's do it. What was
:12:33. > :12:37.the question. How many people here would be prepared to pay the medical
:12:38. > :12:43.expenses to look after people whether an asylum seeker or an
:12:44. > :12:50.economic migrant in their own homes, that is what you're asking the
:12:51. > :13:01.state. Who would be prepared to do that? Who would not? Why don't you
:13:02. > :13:09.ask who has done it? What a compassionate audience. You would
:13:10. > :13:13.not be prepared to do that why? Well, circumstances at home. It
:13:14. > :13:19.wouldn't be viable. In an ideal world if those circumstances were to
:13:20. > :13:24.be different? If my circumstances were different I would say yes. You
:13:25. > :13:32.can see the depth of good will that exists. It is difficult for people.
:13:33. > :13:38.Hands up if you have one. That is the difference. It is so easy to
:13:39. > :13:42.say... Daniel first. Think about all the Labour and SNP politicians who
:13:43. > :13:49.said I would have a a Syrian refugee, how many have done it?
:13:50. > :13:53.Zero. The situation and it is about how asylum seekers are treated here
:13:54. > :13:58.and the situation is different with people coming from Syria than other
:13:59. > :14:05.countries, do you think we should institute some kind of system where
:14:06. > :14:09.be people could for moral reasons and religious reasons be able to do
:14:10. > :14:14.this? Yes and it is lacking. It may be thousands of people would welcome
:14:15. > :14:17.asylum seekers, but they can't welcome them into the country,
:14:18. > :14:24.because of the rules that are in place. But yes, it happens in any
:14:25. > :14:26.case. There is a small programme for Syrian refugees that involved local
:14:27. > :14:31.authorities and local authorities involve the community and it is
:14:32. > :14:34.working very well. The notion of liberal interventionism has been
:14:35. > :14:40.mentioned as a way to deal with migrants. In most cases, that is why
:14:41. > :14:47.we have asylum seekers, because one of the things that this country
:14:48. > :14:52.should be I shamed of - ashamed of is we have gone around starting wars
:14:53. > :15:01.we have no business starting and displaced a huge number of people
:15:02. > :15:05.and frankly there is a gentleman nad Mr Blare that is responsible for
:15:06. > :15:09.many of these wars. I'm sure you can't afford his fee. I understand
:15:10. > :15:17.it is very high. And Mr Cameron to be fair about this. And indeed Mr
:15:18. > :15:24.Bush. These wars, this destabilisation of Middle East and
:15:25. > :15:25.North Africa is what has caused this record number of people moving
:15:26. > :15:41.across the world. President Assad. I disagree.
:15:42. > :15:45.President Assad, not him himself, but the insurgent movement against
:15:46. > :15:50.them, that is part of the problem. Let me ask you this. Do you think
:15:51. > :15:55.that people's attitudes to asylum seekers, which can be negative, it
:15:56. > :15:59.can be a very negative portrayal in the media, do you think their
:16:00. > :16:04.attitudes to an silent sick as are informed by their suspicion of
:16:05. > :16:14.immigration? The two have clearly been conflated. About 80% of people
:16:15. > :16:21.in this country have felt that. No government has addressed that. -- do
:16:22. > :16:27.you think their attitudes to asylum seekers are informed. It is also
:16:28. > :16:33.true that the number of asylum claims are by 40% on last year.
:16:34. > :16:36.Daniel, it is all our fault? It is not our fault. It is a very human
:16:37. > :16:40.thing to place your self at the centre of the universe. I find were
:16:41. > :16:44.simultaneously blamed for causing wars and Iraq and for not
:16:45. > :16:50.intervening in Syria because it is always our fault. This migration is
:16:51. > :16:53.coming from rising wealth and rising aspiration, which makes a journey
:16:54. > :16:57.that would not have been technically feasible 50 years ago feasible. The
:16:58. > :17:02.guys that were coming across the Mediterranean were not coming from
:17:03. > :17:07.countries that we bombed. It is not always about ours. You can blame the
:17:08. > :17:11.people traffickers, you can blame President Assad, you can blame Isis.
:17:12. > :17:17.There is something narcissistic of seeing it is always about Britain.
:17:18. > :17:22.It is not. 45% get through the process. Who should not get through
:17:23. > :17:27.the process. Who should be sent by? The people who should be sent back
:17:28. > :17:30.if they have claimed asylum should be people who have been given the
:17:31. > :17:34.opportunity to make their case in an English court and have failed. Half
:17:35. > :17:41.the people who make an asylum claim are refused. 45%. The problem is
:17:42. > :17:46.that amongst those people are many people, who, giving the proper legal
:17:47. > :17:52.assistance, would have been able to put their case in court of the high
:17:53. > :17:57.level of persecution which you need to prove in order to get asylum
:17:58. > :18:00.status. That is not happening. There have been restrictions on legal aid
:18:01. > :18:05.over the last seven years which prevent that happening. 45% of
:18:06. > :18:10.people are being accepted but you are seeing the bodies too high.
:18:11. > :18:14.Let's get a couple of comments from the audience. I will be with you in
:18:15. > :18:22.a second. Good morning. Good morning. Only experiences, I am a
:18:23. > :18:28.volunteer visitor with a charity which helps asylum seekers around
:18:29. > :18:31.here. I am speaking from six years experience of dealing with asylum
:18:32. > :18:37.seekers. Most of them are from the position of Gulwali, who have come
:18:38. > :18:41.here, had an absolutely terrifying experience at home, they have had to
:18:42. > :18:48.leave their home, their friends, a good job. What is your message? When
:18:49. > :18:55.they arrive here, they are treated by the border agency with
:18:56. > :19:03.considerable contempt, hostility, with a lack of information, and very
:19:04. > :19:06.often silenced for more than a year. It is an atmosphere dealing with the
:19:07. > :19:13.authorities rather more like Stalinist Russia. In the last few
:19:14. > :19:17.years, they have made conditions deliberately much worse. For
:19:18. > :19:26.example, asylum seekers know have to go to Liverpool to present their
:19:27. > :19:29.papers. That is quite a comparison, Stalinist Russia. We have to leave
:19:30. > :19:38.it there. We have other things to discuss. Kitty, I promise to come to
:19:39. > :19:41.you. I'm going to grant you, I said pompously, a final thought. I just
:19:42. > :19:45.wanted to remind us of the conditions that people face, who
:19:46. > :19:50.often have faced difficult journeys, and have come from difficult
:19:51. > :19:54.circumstances. We do not allow them to work when they get here, it can
:19:55. > :19:59.be two years they are waiting, we give them a level of benefits which
:20:00. > :20:04.is 50% of the level we give them -- that we give to other people who are
:20:05. > :20:08.not able to work, which is well below the poverty line, it is a
:20:09. > :20:12.destitution level of support. It means that people cannot afford to
:20:13. > :20:18.dress their children warm Leonardo to get to a doctor. We will talk
:20:19. > :20:22.about child poverty. That is very important. Thank you for your
:20:23. > :20:26.contributions. More to come. If you have something
:20:27. > :20:28.to say about that debate, log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,
:20:29. > :20:31.and follow the link to where you can We're also debating,
:20:32. > :20:35.live this morning at Oasis Academy in Southampton, should
:20:36. > :20:37.we have the right to And will more children
:20:38. > :20:42.be raised in poverty? So, get tweeting or emailing
:20:43. > :20:45.on those topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may
:20:46. > :20:51.have about the show. Every February is Lesbian,
:20:52. > :20:55.Gay, Bisexual And And this year it has been
:20:56. > :20:59.the transgender cases that have been Last week, a High Court judge
:21:00. > :21:07.decided that the wife and children of a man who was now living
:21:08. > :21:10.as a woman should no longer have contact with their father
:21:11. > :21:12.in case they were excluded from their strictly
:21:13. > :21:15.orthodox Jewish community. And another woman transitioning
:21:16. > :21:19.to be a man decided to have a baby before continuing with her sex
:21:20. > :21:21.change but objected to being called Others have faced problems
:21:22. > :21:27.when placed in male or female prisons midway
:21:28. > :21:30.through their transitioning process. And on Friday, Russell Brand
:21:31. > :21:32.declared that he wouldn't be "forcing gender" on his
:21:33. > :21:34.baby daughter, Mabel. Should we have the right
:21:35. > :21:46.to decide our own gender? Of course, the very verb is
:21:47. > :21:51.contentious. It is not a decision for some people. It is absolutely
:21:52. > :21:56.what they are, it is escaping from what they are. Forgive my language,
:21:57. > :22:03.but there are many different cases and examples. What is life like for
:22:04. > :22:07.you know? Last time you were on the programme, you were Richard. Life is
:22:08. > :22:12.very good. It has not been an easy process for those around me. For me,
:22:13. > :22:18.it has been an incredible moment of liberation after a long struggle. I
:22:19. > :22:23.lived with what we called gender dysphoria, I can do thanks, for most
:22:24. > :22:29.of my life. My earliest memory, aged four, was reaching into the cupboard
:22:30. > :22:32.at home, and pulling down my sister's underwear, putting them on
:22:33. > :22:38.and getting a real visceral thrill and a sense of rightness. It was
:22:39. > :22:41.hard at school. I can remember a housemaster shouting across the
:22:42. > :22:48.rugby ground, Hoskins, you are fairly. At the age of 15, I sent off
:22:49. > :22:52.for four months to Amsterdam. Quite unusual at the beginning of the
:22:53. > :22:56.1980s. My father find the package when it came through the post.
:22:57. > :23:01.Clearly worried that something was arriving from Amsterdam. He went
:23:02. > :23:06.ballistic, and burnt it at the bottom of the garden. I lived like
:23:07. > :23:10.that for the next 29 years of so. Difficult for teenagers. Surely
:23:11. > :23:16.knows it is more understanding? Difficult for teenagers living in a
:23:17. > :23:19.situation, for whatever reason, in unorthodox religious situation, the
:23:20. > :23:24.parents do not understand, but for you it was tough. You understand the
:23:25. > :23:29.challenges now. There must have been key moments in your life. Anything
:23:30. > :23:34.gender segregated is massively contentious, prisons, lavatories.
:23:35. > :23:40.Can you remember the first time you went to the ladies'? The first time
:23:41. > :23:44.I went to the ladies' was on my appointment at the gender identity
:23:45. > :23:50.clinic. I am no part of that system. The first time I went, it was a
:23:51. > :23:56.moment in my life. I have never had any problem going into the ladies'
:23:57. > :23:59.since. Living with that dysphoria is something that people need to
:24:00. > :24:05.recognise. We talk about whether it is a choice and not but I could not
:24:06. > :24:10.be anything other than that. Society concentrates too much on gender?
:24:11. > :24:14.Yes, we fixate on binary thinking. I would say to anyone watching be
:24:15. > :24:19.sure, there is support in place. What I did is what you should never
:24:20. > :24:24.do. I started self-medicating. I ordered drugs from abroad. I was
:24:25. > :24:29.taking things without any knowledge of my blood situation, I had no
:24:30. > :24:34.blood tests. I nearly killed myself unintentionally twice. I was going
:24:35. > :24:38.through hell. The boy in the river is the book you were talking about.
:24:39. > :24:44.It is a fantastic book. There are no people who understand that there is
:24:45. > :24:48.help. Peter Saunders from the Christian medical Fellowship, hello.
:24:49. > :24:54.If an adolescent son or daughter of viewers wanted to transition, what
:24:55. > :24:59.would you say to them? Let me talk about this as a doctor. Please just
:25:00. > :25:02.answer the question. If a teenage son or daughter reviewers said they
:25:03. > :25:09.wanted to transition, what would you say? I would encourage them not to
:25:10. > :25:14.do so. What would you say as part of your discouragement, what arguments
:25:15. > :25:17.would you make? I would say it depends on our understanding of this
:25:18. > :25:22.whole phenomenon at what it is. I became acutely aware of this a
:25:23. > :25:27.couple of years ago. One of our members, we have 5000 members, she
:25:28. > :25:33.contacted me and said, I am a GP in University town. I get one gender
:25:34. > :25:38.conflicted teenager seeing the everyday. They are all asking for
:25:39. > :25:43.referral to the Tavistock and Portman clinic in London. Why do you
:25:44. > :25:48.believe that has happened? It is a new phenomenon. We've got to ask
:25:49. > :25:54.ourselves that. The clinic in question had 369 referrals in the
:25:55. > :26:02.year ending 2015. It doubled to over 1400 last which included children
:26:03. > :26:07.aged ten or less. Is it a new phenomenon and just recognition of
:26:08. > :26:16.it? As a man of God Mike, is this not a wonderful God-given, glorious
:26:17. > :26:20.spectrum of gender? God is gender nonspecific? I think God is very
:26:21. > :26:26.clearly created people in his own image, male and female. I'm sorry,
:26:27. > :26:31.that cannot mean parts of the body. I remember a Baptist deacon is in
:26:32. > :26:35.June, lots of people think God has a Venus. It is theologically
:26:36. > :26:39.ridiculous. I am talking about Christian theology. Whatever gender
:26:40. > :26:49.means in a theological sense, it cannot mean bits the body. God is
:26:50. > :26:56.not about bits of the body. This is a war on reason and the war on
:26:57. > :26:59.science, and on men and women. This is extraordinary. Nobody has a
:27:00. > :27:03.problem with accommodating people who are transsexual. What is
:27:04. > :27:10.happening with the current fashion, why the numbers that Peter referred
:27:11. > :27:18.to have gone up, this is becoming an ideology. Is it a fad? It is an
:27:19. > :27:24.ideology, fashion, but an ideology is driving the fashion. People are
:27:25. > :27:27.being naive in accepting it. If you were talking about creationism,
:27:28. > :27:33.everyone would be outraged that you say evolution does not exist.
:27:34. > :27:39.Believe me, they would not. Sex is binary. They can gender is a leftist
:27:40. > :27:53.term designed to confuse. It is. It is X X and YY. This does not mean to
:27:54. > :28:03.say that transsexuals... Hold on, Susie Green, the mother of a
:28:04. > :28:08.transgender girl. When you hear that it is a fashion, and that sexes
:28:09. > :28:14.binary, what would you say? I am not be some of my parts and neither is
:28:15. > :28:17.anyone else. The fact is, I represent hundreds of families, and
:28:18. > :28:21.hundreds of young people who struggle with this daily. This is
:28:22. > :28:25.not the choice, this is not something that is chosen as
:28:26. > :28:28.fashionable. We know that those young people are at risk of suicide
:28:29. > :28:34.and self harm. This is not something anybody would choose. It is
:28:35. > :28:37.difficult to come to terms with, families often struggle for years
:28:38. > :28:41.before they seek help for their children. The children themselves
:28:42. > :28:45.are often refused any sort of acceptance by their own parents.
:28:46. > :28:50.Those are the young people at the highest risk. We know that parental
:28:51. > :28:53.acceptance and support means that young people function better. We
:28:54. > :28:58.have fully functioning members of society who go forward to live happy
:28:59. > :29:05.lives. The thing I cannot understand, why is it anybody else's
:29:06. > :29:11.business? Peter, we're only here once. Not everyone believes that.
:29:12. > :29:18.Let's enjoy it, let's be who we are? It is a lot more complex than that.
:29:19. > :29:22.Is it? It is. Gender dysphoria is a real medical condition which causes
:29:23. > :29:27.great distress needs to be handled carefully. Do you think it is a
:29:28. > :29:31.psychiatric condition? But when we to the situation where a gay icons
:29:32. > :29:37.like Peter Tatchell and feminist icons like jamming Greer are being
:29:38. > :29:40.labelled bigots and getting no platform at British universities and
:29:41. > :29:44.denied freedom of speech simply because they have expressed the view
:29:45. > :29:49.that trans-women are not real women, you have got to realise there is a
:29:50. > :29:54.massive new form of political correctness on the box. The medical
:29:55. > :29:59.profession has changed its view of this as well. I think, largely, for
:30:00. > :30:07.ideological and political reasons, to appease people. People are tired
:30:08. > :30:13.of political correctness. Sarah, why do some feminists have a problem
:30:14. > :30:16.with this? What is their problem? The big problem is that there is a
:30:17. > :30:17.massive lack of clarity about what we're talking about when we talk
:30:18. > :30:27.about gender. And you have a class system and
:30:28. > :30:33.you're socialised to become either a man or to be a woman with all the
:30:34. > :30:42.attributes that women have supposed to have. And men are superior. The
:30:43. > :30:49.problem is you're a woman because your feel like a woman inside, that
:30:50. > :30:53.says that men have power, because they're innately supposed to have
:30:54. > :30:58.power and women are supposed to have less power. That is a very
:30:59. > :31:03.antifeminist argument. And that doesn't say anything about whether
:31:04. > :31:06.people should be protected from discrimination and violence. They
:31:07. > :31:10.should. It doesn't say anything about whether people should be
:31:11. > :31:15.allowed to you know... Choose their names, live their lives, wear the
:31:16. > :31:19.clothes they feel happy w have surgery. All of those things are you
:31:20. > :31:26.know absolutely acceptable and necessary for individual people. But
:31:27. > :31:31.what we can't give up is this understanding that gender in society
:31:32. > :31:36.operates the class similar to women's disadvantage and men's
:31:37. > :31:42.advantage. Is it a psychological problem, there was a study done at
:31:43. > :31:46.the university of Oxford about a young girl that was having
:31:47. > :31:55.dysphoria, thinking she was at times a rabbit, a cat and other things. It
:31:56. > :32:00.was found to be a imyou know deficiency causing the brain Kem
:32:01. > :32:09.trito be affected -- chemistry to be affected. This was a medical study
:32:10. > :32:14.and a credible... Susie... This is not relevant. It was a medical
:32:15. > :32:24.study. Audience, put your hands up, see what you think. A study with
:32:25. > :32:29.28,000 transpeople who fed into the study showed the levels of
:32:30. > :32:35.persecution, violence is horrific and you know using one single study
:32:36. > :32:40.of somebody thinks they're a rabbit. It was a well credited study. What
:32:41. > :32:47.do you think should we be able to decide, what do you think? The
:32:48. > :32:54.gentleman there. Good morning. You referenced the family court judge
:32:55. > :32:57.who made the decision up in Manchester about the ultraorthodox
:32:58. > :33:03.Jewish community, he took five days for that decision to not allow a
:33:04. > :33:10.transfather to have contact with his children. I would suggest that the
:33:11. > :33:19.children would enjoy much better outcomes if they had contact with a
:33:20. > :33:26.loving transdad than growing up within a bigoted close-minded
:33:27. > :33:32.community. Thank you. Anyone else? Hello. I just wondered if anyone
:33:33. > :33:37.here understood really what it took to go through the medical process of
:33:38. > :33:43.looking at one, diagnosing a condition. It is probably far more
:33:44. > :33:47.thorough and rigorous than you imagine. It may be there are young
:33:48. > :33:52.people who present themselves with problems and issues that does not
:33:53. > :33:57.mean that they will go on to treatment and transition. Thank you.
:33:58. > :34:06.I just, for people who don't understand, there are, there is is a
:34:07. > :34:15.vast array of to many people new terms here. Facebook has tens of
:34:16. > :34:21.different, something like 71. Different definition. What is
:34:22. > :34:25.non-binary? That is somebody who doesn't identify themselves within
:34:26. > :34:30.the sex binary as in male and female. You can have people who say,
:34:31. > :34:36.well, I'm not a male or a female, maybe I'm in the middle or they may
:34:37. > :34:41.switch between the two. Gender fluid. That defines somebody who may
:34:42. > :34:47.move around. The bottom line is people are people. And labels are
:34:48. > :34:51.not necessarily very helpful. Whoever and however you live, is up
:34:52. > :34:55.to you and if you're not hurting anybody else, you're not breaking
:34:56. > :35:01.any laws, I don't understand what the big deal is about allowing
:35:02. > :35:05.somebody to be themselves. Do you think we are getting to a situation
:35:06. > :35:12.that we can see the road ahead and it leads to the end of the binary
:35:13. > :35:19.world. Back too toilets, do you think the old ladies and gents has
:35:20. > :35:23.served its time. The facilities here are jender neutral and everyone is
:35:24. > :35:30.going to the toilet normally. I don't see what the big deal is. The
:35:31. > :35:34.BMA say the recommended thing would be not to call somebody a pregnant
:35:35. > :35:42.mother. I think that would apply if you had somebody who was not
:35:43. > :35:44.natally... Female. You have a choice between expectant mother and
:35:45. > :35:52.pregnant person. Why can't you be a pregnant woman. Why do you have to
:35:53. > :35:59.choose. It is out rageous. We were talking about the idea of the system
:36:00. > :36:08.and children sometimes present as trans. We are not just talking about
:36:09. > :36:15.single cases. There is a 80% rate. There is no way to tell... The
:36:16. > :36:26.studies go back to the 60s and 70s. The actual landscape for society was
:36:27. > :36:30.far different. Multiple studied. A Mermaid, Mermaids, don't exist, what
:36:31. > :36:41.are we into? How can anyone got no scientific. Do angels exist? Angels
:36:42. > :36:46.don't exist. And they're gender nonspecific binary fluid. Daniel
:36:47. > :36:50.Hannan? As a libertarian, you must think to yourself, you don't give a
:36:51. > :36:54.fig about this? That is why Susie was right to say, why is this a
:36:55. > :37:00.problem for anybody else. A very good question and there a core
:37:01. > :37:05.rollry, you don't need to involve the full force of state education in
:37:06. > :37:12.something that is a personal decision. If you consider an
:37:13. > :37:17.employee who is saying I'm transitioning and want to use that
:37:18. > :37:20.toilet, that is a situation that normal human relations will
:37:21. > :37:27.accommodate and work something out and but as soon as you soon by force
:37:28. > :37:36.of law, you're obliged to do X and Y it is no longer an employee that you
:37:37. > :37:40.owe a duty of care. I can tell you there is still prejudice and it is
:37:41. > :37:46.not easy and it is easy to say people are moving on. You try and
:37:47. > :37:50.bring it home and dealing with children and people at home, they
:37:51. > :37:56.battle with it. They want to be in a normal set up and to be approved by
:37:57. > :38:04.their peers. There is still a huge amount of prejudice and that is
:38:05. > :38:11.why... It is uncomfortable to say expectant mothers and people think
:38:12. > :38:16.that is ridiculous. The point is why are we so fixated on whether we fill
:38:17. > :38:20.in questionnaires as male or female. Why can't we allow people to express
:38:21. > :38:26.themselves how they feel it is right and it is not just about chromosomes
:38:27. > :38:29.and bits of body. There are hormones and the way you interpret yourself
:38:30. > :38:38.and we need to have a society that accepts that. If you're trying to be
:38:39. > :38:45.happy, you're not an axe-murderer. A quick word here? I went into the
:38:46. > :38:50.toilets in ASDA in my town and spoke to a member of staff and a customer,
:38:51. > :38:56.hello, ace walked through, put the bags in the cubicle. When I came
:38:57. > :39:00.out, I couldn't get out. Male security guard blocking the dor way
:39:01. > :39:07.with a female security guard and they accosted me and said what are
:39:08. > :39:13.you doing in the ladies toilet. I said, this is the way I'm pressed, I
:39:14. > :39:17.didn't want to go into the gents. They said you shouldn't be in there,
:39:18. > :39:21.you're not a lady. I said how do you know. The woman said, unless you
:39:22. > :39:26.have had the operation and can prove it you shouldn't be in here, we can
:39:27. > :39:32.call the police. I said I shop in ASDA a lot, I have bags of shopping,
:39:33. > :39:39.I was breaking my neck, I needed the loo, would you let me leave? So I
:39:40. > :39:47.left the next time I went into to ASDA I say, hello it is me again, I
:39:48. > :39:54.need the loo. Which should I used. I said maybe the disabled, he said ma
:39:55. > :40:00.would be best. So worried no one is thinking about children. Would you
:40:01. > :40:07.have a problem, what is your name? Hard cases make bad law. I probably
:40:08. > :40:14.would have a problem I will be honest. Hard kafs make bad law. But
:40:15. > :40:16.we should be humane and decent enough to accommodate individual
:40:17. > :40:20.pieces you don't turn into it the law. If you turn it into the law,
:40:21. > :40:26.you are doing something terribly damaging and confusing and
:40:27. > :40:33.irresponsible to the way we bring children up. It doesn't do those
:40:34. > :40:36.things, what happens when somebody is discriminating, the law should be
:40:37. > :40:49.there to help to stop people doing that. We age... Would you feel
:40:50. > :40:56.uncomfortable. It is mortifying you had such an experience, I don't
:40:57. > :41:03.think we should concentrate on toilets. But how we move to self
:41:04. > :41:11.identity as the only marker of sex how that affects women in prisons
:41:12. > :41:16.and refuges and women's sports, that can't exist if male people can say
:41:17. > :41:18.they're women. This could carry on for hours. Thank you all very much.
:41:19. > :41:21.We have got to leave it there. You can join in all this
:41:22. > :41:24.morning's debates by logging on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions
:41:25. > :41:26.and following the link Or you can tweet using
:41:27. > :41:29.the hashtag bbctbq. Tell us what you think
:41:30. > :41:31.about our last Big Question too. Will more children be
:41:32. > :41:34.raised in poverty? And if you'd like to apply to be
:41:35. > :41:38.in the audience at a future show you We're in Leicester next week,
:41:39. > :41:42.Edinburgh on February 19th On Friday, the MP Dan Jarvis hoped
:41:43. > :41:55.that his private member's bill would change the Government's
:41:56. > :41:58.approach to child poverty. It ran out of time, at least
:41:59. > :42:01.for now, which is unfortunate as the number of children living
:42:02. > :42:03.in poverty is already rising According to the respected
:42:04. > :42:09.Institute for Fiscal Studies, the percentage of children living
:42:10. > :42:11.in officially declared poverty in the UK will rise from 14.9%
:42:12. > :42:21.to 18.3% in the decade 2010 to 2020. Relative child poverty,
:42:22. > :42:24.that's the number of children living in households with an income less
:42:25. > :42:29.than 60% of median earnings, will also rise over the same period
:42:30. > :42:35.from 17.5% to 25.7%. These changes would reverse
:42:36. > :42:37.all the improvements made to levels of child poverty
:42:38. > :42:39.in the previous decade. But critics say the bold figures
:42:40. > :42:42.obscure a more complex picture. Will more children be
:42:43. > :42:58.raised in poverty? Josephine, child poverty action
:42:59. > :43:04.group, is a target the answer? Absolutely, we know that targets can
:43:05. > :43:09.be a spur to action for government. A target will provide action to
:43:10. > :43:14.bring the numbers down. When we had a target for child poverty that was
:43:15. > :43:20.set, there was a pledge in 1999 to half child poverty and we saw a real
:43:21. > :43:24.fall thanks to a broad strategy that invested in tax credits and support
:43:25. > :43:29.for lone parents to get into work and a large section got better off
:43:30. > :43:35.and drove a strategy. What we are seeing now is trying to turn the
:43:36. > :43:38.focus away from how much money families have to live on and the
:43:39. > :43:42.refusal to accept that the Government has some accountability
:43:43. > :43:46.in that area, at the same time as families are seeing enormous hit
:43:47. > :43:54.toos their income through cuts to financial support they receive
:43:55. > :43:58.through child benefits. Its about the minimum acceptable standards a
:43:59. > :44:08.child should have to live in the particular country in which they
:44:09. > :44:12.live. So that is basically the school trips, the pencil cases, does
:44:13. > :44:18.its come down to pounds shillings and pence? Do we want too put a
:44:19. > :44:23.number on it. What is the main driver child poverty? It is
:44:24. > :44:29.common-sense, everybody knows that poverty is not having enough to buy
:44:30. > :44:35.things you need and we need to look at the factors that feed into that.
:44:36. > :44:40.We know that children in families on lower incomes do worse in health and
:44:41. > :44:44.less likely to fulfil their potential at school and have worse
:44:45. > :44:48.mental health. There is plenty of evidence that it is very damaging
:44:49. > :44:55.for children to be left behind. No money. You want to come in. What is
:44:56. > :45:02.the driver of child poverty? I would say it is decades of leftist
:45:03. > :45:05.ideology that have created modern child poverty when we live in one of
:45:06. > :45:11.the most affluent countries of world. You have to ask why we have
:45:12. > :45:16.so many fatherless family ands you have to look at the relationship
:45:17. > :45:19.between fatherlessness and poverty. Because of course poverty is... It
:45:20. > :45:32.is Margaret Thatcher's leftist policies. Well in fact from 1980s we
:45:33. > :45:37.began to intervene to support, to penalise married family ands to
:45:38. > :45:42.support lone parenthood which is not economically or socially viable. Yes
:45:43. > :45:48.it did with independent taxation and family law reform.
:45:49. > :45:55.What do you mean when you say women are married to the state? Lots of
:45:56. > :46:00.lone families could not exist because they have not set out to do
:46:01. > :46:06.things, fundamentally there is an order, are responsible order in
:46:07. > :46:13.life. Get a job, find a partner, or a husband or wife, and then have a
:46:14. > :46:18.child. Nowadays, for decades, lots of people do not do it in that
:46:19. > :46:23.order. You may smile and think that is perfectly socially acceptable,
:46:24. > :46:29.but that is a large cause. I am only smiling because I saw the expression
:46:30. > :46:38.on Sarah Ditum's phase. As a person who did not do things in that order
:46:39. > :46:42.at all, I got pregnant when I was at university, and I am absolutely and
:46:43. > :46:46.vastly grateful to the massive community of support that I had,
:46:47. > :46:52.both from individuals and my family and beyond my family, and from the
:46:53. > :46:56.state. If I had not had access to certain funds from the state I would
:46:57. > :47:01.have been in a complete hole. I would not be a person who is now
:47:02. > :47:06.able to contribute economically and personally to society. From a
:47:07. > :47:10.conservative point of view, it is no can surprise that Dan Jarvis' bill
:47:11. > :47:16.failed because Labour cannot organise a protest in a brewery at
:47:17. > :47:23.the moment. There is a problem with child poverty. Conservatives are not
:47:24. > :47:27.doing enough about it. To the asylum seeker question, most people in this
:47:28. > :47:31.country feel like at the very least we should be taking care of
:47:32. > :47:35.children. We are not going back to that one. We should be taking care
:47:36. > :47:40.of children in this country before we look at other things. What are
:47:41. > :47:44.you talking about, not having a biological nurturer? The fact is it
:47:45. > :47:50.takes two people to bring up a child and you have to have an economically
:47:51. > :47:55.viable unit. We have 3 million children, 1.8 million lone parent
:47:56. > :48:00.families, mainly led by women, which are not economically viable without
:48:01. > :48:06.massive state support. Kitty. There are many families in which children
:48:07. > :48:11.are doing what you consider to be the right thing, with couples, in
:48:12. > :48:15.work. Two thirds of children in the UK live in families which are
:48:16. > :48:19.working. Where children live with the lone parent, for whatever reason
:48:20. > :48:22.that maybe, and there are many reasons why families end up in that
:48:23. > :48:27.situation, researchers looked carefully at this and we know that
:48:28. > :48:33.lone parent to do itself is not damaging to children. Are you
:48:34. > :48:40.telling me... ? THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:48:41. > :48:43.We may want to do what we can to keep families together and support
:48:44. > :48:50.families where it is possible, but to say that where children live in
:48:51. > :48:54.poverty, we have to do something else.
:48:55. > :49:05.THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE Let me get Kathy's response, then my
:49:06. > :49:11.plan is to go to Chris. We have had a cultural revolution in childcare
:49:12. > :49:15.in the last decade. That in itself, the choices that people make, the
:49:16. > :49:21.government invites them to me, it will leave us with child poverty for
:49:22. > :49:25.decades to come. I am sure you would like to vent your view. We should
:49:26. > :49:29.look at the actual facts over the last few years. You started off with
:49:30. > :49:32.prediction from the Institute for Fiscal Studies saying that child
:49:33. > :49:38.poverty was going to rise. They also said that in 2011. It has fallen
:49:39. > :49:44.since they made those predictions. It is interesting to see why it has
:49:45. > :49:46.fallen. They assume that the benefits reform brought in by the
:49:47. > :49:51.government of David Cameron would lead to people on low incomes having
:49:52. > :49:55.even lower incomes. What did actually did what it got more people
:49:56. > :49:59.into work. We have very low unemployment. Employment always pays
:50:00. > :50:04.better than benefits. Everyone was predicting rising inequality, more
:50:05. > :50:08.child poverty, lower incomes, it has not happened. We have seen falling
:50:09. > :50:16.child and adult poverty. Rising incomes. The only income bracket
:50:17. > :50:19.that has not gone back to pre-crush levels is the richest one fifth. The
:50:20. > :50:28.bottom one fifth has seen the biggest rise. 13%. 3% down in the
:50:29. > :50:34.biggest one fifth. The whole narrative is false. We are looking
:50:35. > :50:38.at gloomy predictions rather than what is happening. I do not know for
:50:39. > :50:42.sure it child poverty is going to rise and fall, but if you had to beg
:50:43. > :50:46.out any given time in the last hundred years whether it was going
:50:47. > :50:51.to rise or fall, you would be a fool to bet on it rising. We are
:50:52. > :50:55.rationally pessimistic. Google would have said in the last hundred years,
:50:56. > :50:59.the gap between rich and is widening, and they would always have
:51:00. > :51:04.been wrong. Child poverty costs us billions of pounds in the long term.
:51:05. > :51:08.Think back to your childhood, or mine, and think of the different
:51:09. > :51:11.seating we had in our houses. The idea that child poverty is
:51:12. > :51:18.increasing is untrue. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:51:19. > :51:22.Poverty can now be completely eliminated, realistically. Hang on.
:51:23. > :51:27.There are different ways of measuring it. Some people say
:51:28. > :51:32.relative, some people it should be absolute, others say both. It is a
:51:33. > :51:38.complex calibration. I think I am right in saying that you have this
:51:39. > :51:42.idea, it is not just your idea, but a shopping basket idea, different
:51:43. > :51:47.things from different times in that basket, what we need in a particular
:51:48. > :51:51.society at the particular time. Rather than just measuring how many
:51:52. > :51:54.people have below 60% of whatever the average income is at the time,
:51:55. > :52:06.there is another way of doing it. How much do you need for a decent,
:52:07. > :52:09.healthy diet, how much do you need to spend on clothes, how much on
:52:10. > :52:11.school trips and so on. You put all this together and you have more of
:52:12. > :52:14.an absolute figure and you can see who cannot afford that. It is open
:52:15. > :52:17.to abuse. You can have a generous list or you can be very frugal. That
:52:18. > :52:22.sort of system would be better, looking at what people need, rather
:52:23. > :52:26.than setting an arbitrary benchmark. It is a sensible way of doing it for
:52:27. > :52:31.a point in time, but it becomes problematic when you look over time.
:52:32. > :52:36.The Joseph Rowntree Foundation has done that. The measures they come up
:52:37. > :52:50.with more generous than the 60% of median. It is a good way of tracking
:52:51. > :52:51.over time, how families are doing compared to the norm in society.
:52:52. > :52:55.I would also like to pick up on your point. It is not true that the
:52:56. > :52:58.bottom of the distribution has been doing well. There is clear analysis
:52:59. > :53:00.on that. The bottom half of the distribution last out significantly
:53:01. > :53:04.from tax benefit changes over the last five years. But there are
:53:05. > :53:11.incomes have risen. The incomes at top of the distribution, it has been
:53:12. > :53:16.a redistribution, effectively. At it is the gap between the rich and
:53:17. > :53:22.appear. Everyone's income has increased apart from the richest one
:53:23. > :53:29.fifth. Peter Saunders. Listen, hang on a minute. Peter, you wanted to
:53:30. > :53:32.say something and know your own. We have 2500 GPs in our organisation
:53:33. > :53:36.who see this issue on the front line. The key question is the one
:53:37. > :53:41.that you raised at the beginning, what are the drivers to poverty? It
:53:42. > :53:46.is not just about benefits, and pounds, shillings and pence,
:53:47. > :53:50.percentages. When the Centre for Social Justice look that this a few
:53:51. > :53:56.years ago and produced their report, breakdown Britain, the identified
:53:57. > :54:01.five major drivers to poverty, family breakdown, economic
:54:02. > :54:05.dependency, educational failure, levels of debt, and something know
:54:06. > :54:10.where he -- something no one here has mentioned, but which is massive,
:54:11. > :54:14.addiction to drugs and alcohol. It is not until we start to address the
:54:15. > :54:19.real drivers of poverty that we will deal with this problem. One point
:54:20. > :54:23.left out of that list is geography. What is indisputable is that where
:54:24. > :54:27.you live in this country is a massive big part of child poverty.
:54:28. > :54:31.There is a disproportionate amount of child poverty in the north of
:54:32. > :54:36.England. That really does need to be addressed. This mandatory pessimism
:54:37. > :54:41.from everybody. If you look at how we were living 20 years ago, 20
:54:42. > :54:45.years before that, there has been a solid improvement, and the biggest
:54:46. > :54:51.improvement has been in the poorest countries. As recently as 1990, 30%
:54:52. > :54:57.of human beings lived in extreme poverty, as defined by the UN.
:54:58. > :55:01.Surely the merger has to be in relation to the situation at the
:55:02. > :55:06.time in society? If you choose to Mejia rate in proportionate terms,
:55:07. > :55:12.by the 60% of median income, the odd thing is that during the recession,
:55:13. > :55:16.poverty by that measure tumbled. The only reason we have seen is very
:55:17. > :55:21.slight uptake in poverty measure that way is because working families
:55:22. > :55:26.are no increase in their incomes. It is very complicated. Quick points
:55:27. > :55:31.from the audience. I work from a national charity. We provide free
:55:32. > :55:35.debt counselling. Week by week, I see children in dire need. The whole
:55:36. > :55:40.conversation has been about the money, the finance, and we provide
:55:41. > :55:46.that, counselling service to sort out the money. That is the easy bit.
:55:47. > :55:49.For some people, that is all they need, not there is a poverty of hope
:55:50. > :55:54.and dignity. A child that has brought up where the parents miss
:55:55. > :55:57.meals, where they do not have a pencil case, they miss school trips,
:55:58. > :56:02.they are taught by their parents to hide upstairs when the debt
:56:03. > :56:07.collectors come, and keep quiet. They grow up, I am a second-class
:56:08. > :56:11.person, I cannot survive in this world. The system has taught them
:56:12. > :56:19.that you cannot do this, and they have a poverty of hope and dignity.
:56:20. > :56:21.And this lady. I work with vulnerable children and families,
:56:22. > :56:25.and I can say quite confidently that there are significant impact on
:56:26. > :56:29.children that are in poverty. It just seems to be rising, if
:56:30. > :56:33.anything. Children who are growing up in poverty are less likely to
:56:34. > :56:38.achieve academically, less likely to be able to go to university because
:56:39. > :56:45.their parents know cannot afford for them to go. Alongside that, there
:56:46. > :56:48.are cuts to services, drug and alcohol addiction, preventing
:56:49. > :56:53.getting into employment. It is having an impact on the child. They
:56:54. > :56:57.are not addressing the issues, so it goes on that cycle and its cycles
:56:58. > :57:05.again. It is not been stopped. Someone needs to address it. We have
:57:06. > :57:08.this debate and the question. We should be ashamed. We should be
:57:09. > :57:14.ashamed. Where the sixth richest country on earth, and there are all
:57:15. > :57:18.these children living in poverty. Let's not have a debate and
:57:19. > :57:23.discussion. There is a real problem. Let's admit the problem, and work on
:57:24. > :57:28.getting those people better. It depends on the definition. We have a
:57:29. > :57:33.higher poverty rate in Britain than in Bangladesh based on the 60%
:57:34. > :57:36.median income. If you do not like using the term poverty for those
:57:37. > :57:41.children, Colin families on low income. The fact is, we know those
:57:42. > :57:46.children are being less but -- are being left behind, they are doing
:57:47. > :57:49.less well. We do not know what the numbers will turn out to be. Let's
:57:50. > :57:54.look at it positively, let's agree to have a target, and put in place
:57:55. > :58:00.policies that we know will work. Let's be ambitions. The real problem
:58:01. > :58:04.is childcare. We have the most expensive childcare. I have to exert
:58:05. > :58:08.control for once in my life. We're coming to the end. Kitty, what is
:58:09. > :58:12.the best approach? The best approaches to put the target is back
:58:13. > :58:17.in place and the strategies that went with it. Weird strategies that
:58:18. > :58:22.made sure that every government department and local departments had
:58:23. > :58:25.to think about poverty. Scrapping the requirement on those departments
:58:26. > :58:29.has led to this projected rise in poverty over the next five years.
:58:30. > :58:36.Thank you. Thank you all very much indeed. You did that brilliantly. It
:58:37. > :58:42.has taken me to the end. I think I can just about filling. -- just
:58:43. > :58:43.about fill in. As always, the debates will continue
:58:44. > :58:45.online and on Twitter. Next week we're in Leicester,
:58:46. > :58:48.so do join us then. But for now, it's goodbye from
:58:49. > :59:00.Southampton and have a great Sunday. Secure your place at
:59:01. > :59:07.the 500 Words Final, BBC Radio 2's writing competition
:59:08. > :59:12.for kids with our honorary judge