:00:00. > :00:00.Today on The Big Questions: Dealing with Israel.
:00:00. > :00:31.Today we're live from Leicester Grammar School.
:00:32. > :00:32.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
:00:33. > :00:37.On Tuesday, Mrs May held talks at Downing Street
:00:38. > :00:41.with her opposite number in Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu.
:00:42. > :00:43.Increasing trade and investment with Israel was high on the agenda.
:00:44. > :00:46.The day before, the Knesset, Israel's parliament,
:00:47. > :00:49.passed a bill legalising settlements on privately owned Palestinian
:00:50. > :00:52.land on the West Bank, in direct contradiction of a UN
:00:53. > :01:00.Mrs May was clear that Britain opposes settlement activity
:01:01. > :01:02.and believes the two-state solution is the best way to bring
:01:03. > :01:08.Should we trade with Israel now the settlements
:01:09. > :01:22.I've been doing debates on this issue for 30 years now. And it's
:01:23. > :01:25.never that quiet. It's very, very impassioned on both sides. We shall
:01:26. > :01:34.attempt to proceed in a civilised direction. From war on want, many
:01:35. > :01:37.say, are you serious? We had trade deals with Saudi Arabia, China,
:01:38. > :01:43.Russia, the United Arab Emirates, some of the worst human rights
:01:44. > :01:50.abusers on the planet. None of them are a democracy like Israel is, how
:01:51. > :01:56.can you possibly justify this? I think there's a major issue the UK,
:01:57. > :01:59.they should be putting UK rights and international law at the centre of
:02:00. > :02:04.all of its trade negotiations with all countries. Should we stop
:02:05. > :02:08.trading with all those countries? It is a question to be brought up. We
:02:09. > :02:11.can't talk about trade without talking about human rights and
:02:12. > :02:16.international law. It is important for the UK to take action right now,
:02:17. > :02:19.move beyond words and suspend its trade relations with Israel because
:02:20. > :02:26.of its systematic violations of international law. If we do that, at
:02:27. > :02:29.a time when we need friends, stop trading with international human
:02:30. > :02:31.rights abusers, we would go out of business. When you continue trading
:02:32. > :02:34.with human rights abusing regimes like Israel, you're basically
:02:35. > :02:39.incentivising human rights abuse. You are giving a green light to save
:02:40. > :02:42.violations of international law, doing things like building
:02:43. > :02:48.settlements, demolishing Palestinian homes is OK. We might say on the
:02:49. > :02:55.side, we don't like it when you do that, as Theresa May did, but
:02:56. > :02:57.incentivising them with trade and especially the arms trade, the UK
:02:58. > :03:04.Government has approved over ?100 million worth of arms exports to
:03:05. > :03:10.Israel in 2016 alone. That is used in violence against Palestinians. It
:03:11. > :03:12.is a double standard to say settlements on one hand but -- no
:03:13. > :03:19.settlements but giving alms to the country that is building them. You
:03:20. > :03:22.referred to Israel. Paul, good morning, a former tank commander
:03:23. > :03:25.with the IDF, a couple of things we need to ask it. And then we will
:03:26. > :03:33.hear from the audience, hands, enough already. Ryvka Referred to
:03:34. > :03:38.Israel as a human rights abuser, how would you respond? That needs to be
:03:39. > :03:42.qualified. By Freedom, Israel is recognised as the only free country
:03:43. > :03:45.in the Middle East. It has a very strong democracy, it has a Supreme
:03:46. > :03:51.Court. It is not subservient to the executive. They will decide whether
:03:52. > :03:55.it is legal or not. There is a huge social housing crisis amongst
:03:56. > :03:59.Palestinians and Israelis. These towns are expanding, they need to
:04:00. > :04:03.expand. It is a controversial issue. You can disagree. At the same time,
:04:04. > :04:08.if the UK disagreed with every country, every political decision,
:04:09. > :04:13.they would not be dealing with China, with India over Kashmir,
:04:14. > :04:13.Turkey over Northern Cyprus, and the opposite
:04:14. > :04:20.would be true. It's not like Spain would cease dealing with the UK over
:04:21. > :04:25.Gibraltar, or Argentina would cease dealing with the UK over the
:04:26. > :04:29.Falkland Islands. We need to put this into perspective, settlements
:04:30. > :04:34.are one issue. Since 1967, that needs to be dealt with in a much
:04:35. > :04:41.larger framework of a peace agreement with the Palestinians
:04:42. > :04:43.requiring it. They want to build a home in a state for themselves. More
:04:44. > :04:46.than they want to destroy and boycott Israel. When that priority
:04:47. > :04:54.changes, peace can be achieved. APPLAUSE
:04:55. > :04:57.Let's go to the audience. Right behind Paul. Good morning. Your
:04:58. > :05:04.microphone is coming! This gentleman here. We are in an age where Trump
:05:05. > :05:09.wants to build walls and impose travel bans and impose restrictions
:05:10. > :05:14.based on their religion and identity. Surely what we want to be
:05:15. > :05:20.doing is reaching out to countries. Reaching out to communities. Israel
:05:21. > :05:23.for example? And to engage and challenge, constructively and to say
:05:24. > :05:28.this is wrong but also, we recognise you are a democracy, we want to work
:05:29. > :05:31.with you. We want to build those trade links, those partnerships,
:05:32. > :05:32.improve relationships for the people in the world, rather than being
:05:33. > :05:41.isolationist. You keep saying it's a democracy.
:05:42. > :05:46.It's not a democracy, it's a democracy similar to South Africa in
:05:47. > :05:49.apartheid times. There are so many people which are disenfranchised,
:05:50. > :05:54.they don't have any say in the running of Israel and they keep
:05:55. > :06:00.saying it is a democracy. It has women's rights, gay rights, union.
:06:01. > :06:05.That is one angle. It is the biggest concentration camp in the world.
:06:06. > :06:10.It's almost a prison. Paul? I need to be very careful bringing the
:06:11. > :06:13.points back and forth so it is fair. Be careful with the terminology you
:06:14. > :06:18.use, that is harmful. What is recognised internationally as a
:06:19. > :06:22.democracy. As we said, we have all the minorities as heads of Supreme
:06:23. > :06:29.Court, doctors, heads of hospitals, heads of universities. Minorities
:06:30. > :06:33.from across the board, Arabs, Christians, etc. This is recognised
:06:34. > :06:36.as a beacon as what could be seen as a free country that all the rest of
:06:37. > :06:43.the countries can see that this is what we want to have, this is the
:06:44. > :06:47.beacon, this is your ultimate. Gentlemen, there is a point you
:06:48. > :06:56.made, the first speaker. Leon. I want to point to you, Professor good
:06:57. > :07:00.morning. How are you? Very well thank you. I am shocked that you
:07:01. > :07:04.have a juicy Palestinian question and the crisis in the middle East to
:07:05. > :07:08.a housing problem. You said it's a housing problem that exists for
:07:09. > :07:12.Israelis and Palestinians. You are expanding these towns because there
:07:13. > :07:18.is a housing crisis that needs to be addressed. It's the continued
:07:19. > :07:23.colonisation of Palestine. Nor demolishing houses. You are chasing
:07:24. > :07:27.and removing, let's call it out for what it is -- you are demolishing
:07:28. > :07:30.houses. It is ethnic cleansing going on in these areas that have gone on
:07:31. > :07:37.for decades. I will put that point to Tom. Go on, come back on it. It's
:07:38. > :07:41.really important to have a debate but we need to be so careful with
:07:42. > :07:46.our language. We want to have a civilised debate here. Using words
:07:47. > :07:50.like concentration camps and ethnic cleansing is really offensive.
:07:51. > :07:54.APPLAUSE To all people who have actually
:07:55. > :08:00.suffered. That extreme genocide and persecution. Please don't use
:08:01. > :08:03.language like concentration camps because it is not concentration
:08:04. > :08:08.camp. It is a fact, these people have been disenfranchised. With the
:08:09. > :08:12.building settlements, the Palestinian houses are being
:08:13. > :08:17.demolished. Let me put a point to you that Leon made. Trade means
:08:18. > :08:27.links, diplomacy, influence, it means you can make progress.
:08:28. > :08:31.Zimbabwe, we have sanctions on Zimbabwe. We have absolutely zero
:08:32. > :08:34.influence. We cannot help the people who are suffering egregious league
:08:35. > :08:38.at the hands of Robert Mugabe and his thugs. The only way we get to
:08:39. > :08:41.Zimbabwe is through the back channels of South Africa and that is
:08:42. > :08:44.difficult enough. Would you want to create a situation where you have no
:08:45. > :08:48.influence, no trading links with Israel? You said you have been
:08:49. > :08:53.covering this topic for 30 years and the number of settlers in the West
:08:54. > :08:56.Bank has increased by 100,000, now 700,000 people. It will reach 1
:08:57. > :09:00.million unless we do something to stop it. If people really are
:09:01. > :09:04.interested in peace, you need to look at the situation of the
:09:05. > :09:09.Palestinians, who didn't choose to be occupied. To have their land
:09:10. > :09:13.taken. To have another state created in our homeland. I speak as a
:09:14. > :09:18.Palestinian. We didn't choose that. This is about the rights of the
:09:19. > :09:22.Palestinian people. Paul talked about housing, building houses. It
:09:23. > :09:27.ludicrous. These houses are built for only one type of person. A
:09:28. > :09:31.Jewish Israeli. Not for Palestinians. If Israel were serious
:09:32. > :09:35.about solving the housing crisis, why doesn't it open up the
:09:36. > :09:38.settlements out to Palestinians? Even better, not build on someone
:09:39. > :09:42.else's land. APPLAUSE All?
:09:43. > :09:51.You've never had a state. We want to help you create a safe propriety of
:09:52. > :09:55.67 it was owned by the Jordanians. They did not allow you to own your
:09:56. > :10:01.own land. Prior to that the British and the Ottomans. This land is
:10:02. > :10:05.called disputed for that fact. Do Palestinians exist as a people, do
:10:06. > :10:09.you think? Do you recognise us as a people? Absolutely. You should have
:10:10. > :10:15.a stake in live alongside us. You should put down your arms. Why don't
:10:16. > :10:19.you put trash on the Israeli government to leave our land? Let me
:10:20. > :10:24.intervene right there. -- put pressure on. Tom, is this not the
:10:25. > :10:33.situation now with the settlements having been legitimised in the
:10:34. > :10:40.Knesset, does that not put a massive wall up to the possibility of a two
:10:41. > :10:43.state solution? Massively counter-productive. This is a
:10:44. > :10:45.proposed law and we will see if it gets to the Supreme Court because
:10:46. > :10:51.Israel has strong checks and balances on its democracy. It is
:10:52. > :10:55.concerning that we think the presence of Jewish people in the
:10:56. > :10:59.West Bank in some way negates their being able to have a Palestinian
:11:00. > :11:04.state. Why is it assumed this Palestinian state has to be free of
:11:05. > :11:08.Jewish people? Why can't they have a Jewish minority? Just like Israel
:11:09. > :11:10.has an Arab and Muslim minority? We can't criminalise an entire
:11:11. > :11:15.community because they ended up on the wrong side of the Armistice
:11:16. > :11:18.line. There are about half a million people there, they are not going
:11:19. > :11:21.anywhere. It's better that we learn for the two sites to be able to
:11:22. > :11:27.accept a minority within one another's countries. Ryvka? It is
:11:28. > :11:31.important for us to recognise that the settlements, like people have
:11:32. > :11:35.referred to, it's been a policy of the state of Israel for decades,
:11:36. > :11:38.now. The reason why settlements exist in the West Bank is not
:11:39. > :11:42.because they ended up on the wrong side of the Armistice line. It's a
:11:43. > :11:47.policy of expansion and colonisation as somebody has mentioned. It is
:11:48. > :11:54.against international law. That is undisputed. It is against UK policy.
:11:55. > :11:58.As a consumer, would you boycott products from Israel? Absolutely.
:11:59. > :12:02.How do you feel when you use Google, they have a major research and
:12:03. > :12:05.development centre in Israel? How do you feel? It's less about an
:12:06. > :12:10.individual consumer. You said you definitely would do that. If you had
:12:11. > :12:14.a list of choices would you radically transform your habits? The
:12:15. > :12:20.important thing is for the UK Government to take action in line
:12:21. > :12:24.with its own policy. The UK foreign policy recognise the settlements as
:12:25. > :12:28.illegal under international law. It's important for the UK to act on
:12:29. > :12:32.that policy. We talked a bit about engagement and you raise the
:12:33. > :12:35.question of whether the UK would have more influence through
:12:36. > :12:40.engagement. Viewers remember Margaret Thatcher's days in relation
:12:41. > :12:44.to South Africa. The policy was constructive engagement. In
:12:45. > :12:48.retrospect it is recognise that actually prolonged apartheid and it
:12:49. > :12:53.allowed apartheid to deepen. Constructive engagement as a policy
:12:54. > :12:57.was rubbished after apartheid fell. Finally, because of economic
:12:58. > :13:00.pressure like sanctions. It's important for us to recognise that
:13:01. > :13:05.as an important tool that the UK Government has. It is time to move
:13:06. > :13:07.beyond words and condemnation into action. APPLAUSE
:13:08. > :13:14.Paul? I like to bring something constructive
:13:15. > :13:20.into it. The blame game is not going to get us to be still. I want to see
:13:21. > :13:25.the Palestinian authority take more control over its own people and over
:13:26. > :13:29.the peace process. We are wanting the Palestinian state more than it
:13:30. > :13:32.wants to destroy and denigrate the Israeli state. There is goodwill
:13:33. > :13:37.around the world and in Israel to help you do that. But you must
:13:38. > :13:43.remember that with all the wars that came in that Israel has to defend
:13:44. > :13:47.itself. It has given back Gaza. Israeli has conceded. What about the
:13:48. > :13:51.gentleman's point that a proportion of our audience, I will put that to
:13:52. > :13:56.him, a proportion of our audience will be wondering, the point
:13:57. > :14:01.represented by that gentleman. Taking land from people, land that
:14:02. > :14:05.is not yours. How do you respond to that? Firstly, this is disputed
:14:06. > :14:09.territory with Palestinians and Jewish people living on it. Please
:14:10. > :14:15.allow me to speak. It isn't disputed territory. When the Israelis left
:14:16. > :14:19.Gaza, every inch of Gaza, the Palestinian land, gave it back and
:14:20. > :14:23.said create a state. We are legally greenhouses, businesses. What was
:14:24. > :14:27.created was a mini terrorist state would only the development of bombs
:14:28. > :14:30.and warfare. The problem is that if Israel does the same thing
:14:31. > :14:35.immediately and retracts from the West Bank, we will have the same
:14:36. > :14:38.extremist ideology coming out of there. We cannot trust and rely
:14:39. > :14:43.without a strong security presence. We cannot trust and rely on these
:14:44. > :14:46.states like Hamas to automatically become democratic and allow gays and
:14:47. > :14:51.Christians to flourish. It will not happen. Kamel, I will be with you,
:14:52. > :14:56.you will have the next voice on the front row and so will Ibrahim. Tom
:14:57. > :14:58.will be back. More audience comments. Leon Camier had a good
:14:59. > :15:06.save. The gentleman at the back? It is important to realise, I
:15:07. > :15:11.believe, after the United Kingdom has voted to leave the European
:15:12. > :15:14.Union, and other factors coming into the 21st-century, that Britain is no
:15:15. > :15:19.longer the global player in the world that it was in post-colonial
:15:20. > :15:24.period after 1945 at the end of the Second World War. What should we do?
:15:25. > :15:27.The diminishing power, we haven't got over responsibility to police
:15:28. > :15:31.the world in the same way and we haven't got the capability. What do
:15:32. > :15:38.we do about Israel? We shouldn't boycott them in any sense at all.
:15:39. > :15:45.In respect of trading with places like Dubai, Saudi Arabia, United
:15:46. > :15:50.Arab Emirates, even trading with Pakistan. Israel is democratic and
:15:51. > :15:56.free as the gentleman said. I take your point. Expressed well by
:15:57. > :16:02.yourself. Good morning. This is about trade. My concern is that the
:16:03. > :16:08.Brexit boat will lead to our leaders, Prime Minister Theresa May
:16:09. > :16:11.and others, only doing deals with countries that are abusing human
:16:12. > :16:15.rights behind their hands, whispering it instead of saying it
:16:16. > :16:18.forcefully, because we need friends. The foreign policy that Robin Cook
:16:19. > :16:23.wished for is not going to happen because we are in no position to
:16:24. > :16:29.criticise others. Is there such a thing as an ethical foreign policy?
:16:30. > :16:35.I think there should be. Professor, you wanted to come back? In the age
:16:36. > :16:38.of Trump, it seems that trade trumps human rights and that is something
:16:39. > :16:41.we should all oppose and oppose strongly. Paul talked about the
:16:42. > :16:46.Palestinians taking more control of their people and so on. Let me give
:16:47. > :16:53.you an example. Under the Oslo accord, an area called area C, the
:16:54. > :16:57.most fertile part of Palestine, apparently under Israeli security
:16:58. > :17:01.and administrative control, it was to be passed over. It isn't being
:17:02. > :17:06.passed over. A number of Israeli ministers say it should be annexed.
:17:07. > :17:12.They actually have no interest in a Palestinian state emerging. The
:17:13. > :17:16.Prime Minister was only advice yesterday, going to Washington next
:17:17. > :17:21.week, two words you should not use, you should not utter two Woods,
:17:22. > :17:25.Palestinian and state. So if there is no Palestinian state, I would
:17:26. > :17:32.very much like to hear what the solution is? There are almost an
:17:33. > :17:35.equal number of Palestinians and Jewish people in that area. What is
:17:36. > :17:43.the solution and has strategically important is a Israel to this
:17:44. > :17:46.country? It is very strategically important in terms of counterterror
:17:47. > :17:50.but that is by the bye and I think the issue here is the moral issue
:17:51. > :17:55.and the issue of human rights. We are being very selective in how we
:17:56. > :18:03.are talking about human rights. Israel are targeted for boycotts and
:18:04. > :18:07.they say they respect international law, but they are not calling for
:18:08. > :18:10.boycotts on other countries with similar issues. Many people in this
:18:11. > :18:13.audience are more angry about the building of Jewish houses in the
:18:14. > :18:17.West Bank than they are about the abuse of Palestinian rights by
:18:18. > :18:20.Palestinians. If your starting point is constantly on human rights,
:18:21. > :18:26.wouldn't you call out the Palestinian authorities for torture
:18:27. > :18:29.and harassment of Palestinians and journalists and detention without
:18:30. > :18:33.trial? If we have silence on all of this, the focus is exclusively on
:18:34. > :18:41.finding reasons to boycott and demonise the world's only Jewish
:18:42. > :18:47.state. We are talking about Palestinian rights and freedom. What
:18:48. > :18:51.the other side is talking about is simply sustaining the status quo.
:18:52. > :18:54.The status quo has led us to a situation where there is a lot of
:18:55. > :18:58.unhappiness and anger and abuse of the Palestinians by the Israeli
:18:59. > :19:04.state. We need to be free for there to be peace in Palestine. Ibrahim
:19:05. > :19:08.Mogra, from the Muslim Council of Britain, do you recognise Israel's
:19:09. > :19:15.right to exist? Within internationally recognised borders,
:19:16. > :19:21.yes. I think we have brought Israel into our embrace far more than I
:19:22. > :19:24.would have liked to see. They are participants in the European
:19:25. > :19:28.football competitions and the Eurovision Song Contest and we don't
:19:29. > :19:38.even share a border with them. In response to your point about
:19:39. > :19:42.isolating Israel, we have actually remained in at least cultural and
:19:43. > :19:45.political contact with them. The important thing here is that
:19:46. > :19:50.international law has got to be applied equally across the board. It
:19:51. > :19:55.is not about Israel, whether it is Saudi Arabia, Pakistan was
:19:56. > :20:01.mentioned, the Gulf states were mentioned, China, which ever state
:20:02. > :20:05.it is. As human beings, if we subscribe to international law, if
:20:06. > :20:10.we fail to apply the UN resolutions equally across the board, what are
:20:11. > :20:15.we showing to the world? That democracy is selective. That
:20:16. > :20:19.powerful nations will pick on the weaker nations. That self-interest
:20:20. > :20:28.and national interest will Trump all the other global interests. So the
:20:29. > :20:31.question is are we applying the same yardstick as a measure to different
:20:32. > :20:36.behaviours of government? We have gone into Iraq and Libya because
:20:37. > :20:42.their leaders were corrupt and dictatorial, as they were, but they
:20:43. > :20:46.flaunted UN security resolutions. How many resolutions has Israel
:20:47. > :20:50.overlooked over time? We have got to leave it there because we have other
:20:51. > :20:54.things to debate but your point came across loud and clear. Not that
:20:55. > :20:59.everybody watching will agree with it. It is a perilous line, this
:21:00. > :21:12.debate, always, but I think that was pretty calm. Everyone? Yes? OK,
:21:13. > :21:16.let's do the next one! If you have something to say about that debate,
:21:17. > :21:21.please go online and follow the link. We are live from Leicester
:21:22. > :21:27.Grammar School. Has the time come to raise taxes to cover social care and
:21:28. > :21:29.is monogamy bad for marriage? Get tweeting and emailing on those
:21:30. > :21:30.topics and sent as any other thoughts you have about the
:21:31. > :21:34.programme. This week, the National
:21:35. > :21:36.Health Service has been Hospitals have been
:21:37. > :21:39.failing to meet patient targets for waiting in A,
:21:40. > :21:41.waiting for cancer treatments, waiting on trolleys, and waiting
:21:42. > :21:45.for ambulances to arrive. A key factor has been the inability
:21:46. > :21:56.to discharge patients no longer in need of medical treatment,
:21:57. > :21:58.that awful phrase bed blockers, because of the lack of social
:21:59. > :22:01.care in the community. And while the number of people over
:22:02. > :22:05.65 has risen by more than 15%, budgets for adult social care
:22:06. > :22:08.run by local councils Now local councils, who need to win
:22:09. > :22:13.a local referendum to raise council taxes by more than 5%,
:22:14. > :22:17.are raising or introducing charges for burials, parking,
:22:18. > :22:18.planning applications, And the councils with the biggest
:22:19. > :22:23.social care problems tend to be Has the time come to raise taxes
:22:24. > :22:36.to cover social care? Dawn, social affairs journalist,
:22:37. > :22:41.this has been coming down the track for years. We knew it was coming
:22:42. > :22:45.down the track. It has been coming for ages. Because it doesn't suit
:22:46. > :22:48.the electoral cycle and it will cost boats, nobody has really done
:22:49. > :22:54.anything to counteract it and deal with it. What do we need to do? We
:22:55. > :22:58.need to invest very heavily. We also need to look at social care in the
:22:59. > :23:01.same way that we look at the NHS. Instead of everybody having a very
:23:02. > :23:06.localised and different response to social care, I think we should bring
:23:07. > :23:09.in a social care standards and say that everybody deserves the same
:23:10. > :23:13.social care, like we do with the NHS. If I go into an NHS hospital in
:23:14. > :23:16.London, I should get the same care as somebody in Liverpool, and
:23:17. > :23:21.everybody should get the same social care regardless of what they earn.
:23:22. > :23:25.How do we pay for it? I think we have got to raise taxes. By raising
:23:26. > :23:34.the tax free allowance, people who were relatively well off were given
:23:35. > :23:36.a little more money. But what we have seen is the poorest in society
:23:37. > :23:39.being massively hit by cuts at one of those cuts is the end of the
:23:40. > :23:43.council tax benefit. The very poorest in society now have got to
:23:44. > :23:48.pay council tax. Which taxes should we be putting up? I think we should
:23:49. > :23:51.put up the tax-free alliance. -- allowance. Council tax is
:23:52. > :23:57.regressive. People struggle to pay it. Councils bring in burial charges
:23:58. > :24:00.so people cannot afford to bury their children often. Councils spent
:24:01. > :24:07.days on end every week in court trying to get poor people into court
:24:08. > :24:11.with a summons for a ?60 council tax charge. I think council tax is the
:24:12. > :24:14.wrong way to do it. We need to look at national Insurance being raised
:24:15. > :24:20.or raising the tax-free allowance. We need to fund social care like we
:24:21. > :24:25.fund the NHS and we need to find the NHS more. We need an awful lot of
:24:26. > :24:28.money here, don't we? We do need a lot of money for social care but we
:24:29. > :24:34.do not need to raise taxes. If there is one way of making sure people
:24:35. > :24:37.will oppose a policy it is to do something that means raising taxes.
:24:38. > :24:44.The big question in our society today is how do we look after each
:24:45. > :24:49.other? And this is the question that social care is meant to answer and
:24:50. > :24:54.yet it is the most do value and, most do prioritised, underfunded of
:24:55. > :25:00.any of our domestic policies. Why is that? Why do we need to raise
:25:01. > :25:05.taxation? More taxes paid now than for the last 30 years. The point is
:25:06. > :25:09.that we need a different funding structure for social care if it is
:25:10. > :25:13.either going to be the preventative service that stops wasting money and
:25:14. > :25:17.damaging lives that it can be. We need to do that and we need to do it
:25:18. > :25:21.by looking to the NHS. We need to have a social care system that can
:25:22. > :25:29.be connected with the NHS because it is no longer needs and means tested.
:25:30. > :25:34.Instead it is funded out of general taxation. It is free at the point of
:25:35. > :25:36.delivery and it is available to everybody, as most ordinary people
:25:37. > :25:47.think until they try and get social care. Hello. Good morning, everyone.
:25:48. > :25:52.We have already paid for this structure called the National Health
:25:53. > :25:57.Service, whether you call it social care. We have paid for it once, from
:25:58. > :26:03.when we have worked all our lives. We have then paid for it again when
:26:04. > :26:09.we bailed out the bankers. But we haven't paid enough. I accept that.
:26:10. > :26:14.However we still need to do a little bit more but why is it always we?
:26:15. > :26:18.Why is it always the people who are the most vulnerable who have got to
:26:19. > :26:21.bail out the ones who don't need that money? We should have more
:26:22. > :26:26.money in the pot but where will it come from? So I agree with the
:26:27. > :26:30.gentleman here. We do need to look after each other a little bit better
:26:31. > :26:37.than we have in the past, however I am sick and tired, literally, of us,
:26:38. > :26:41.the vulnerable people, the sick, the elderly, the disabled, the children,
:26:42. > :26:46.always having to provide the solution and always having to
:26:47. > :26:50.provide the money every time to bail out social care because it is a
:26:51. > :26:55.social care system that is falling apart. We can't do it any more. We
:26:56. > :27:01.have had enough. No more. No more what? No more bailing out anybody
:27:02. > :27:05.else any more. There has got to be another way? Why do we think having
:27:06. > :27:21.decent social care will cost more? Why would it cost more to prevent
:27:22. > :27:24.elderly people needing more intervention? It is denied because
:27:25. > :27:28.the budget have dropped drastically. I was at Manchester council the
:27:29. > :27:32.other day and the budget has been cut by 40% which has a knock-on
:27:33. > :27:35.effect on the social care budget. Councils have been tasked with this
:27:36. > :27:39.and they are trying their best to provide social care to everybody who
:27:40. > :27:43.needs it, but actually in my borough, Lambert, 70% of people
:27:44. > :27:51.requesting social care are denied it. Social carers deserve to be well
:27:52. > :27:56.paid. It is shocking the amount that they get given what they do and the
:27:57. > :27:59.commitment with which they do it. But economists will tell you that
:28:00. > :28:05.raising the minimum wage made social care far more expensive. But did it
:28:06. > :28:08.really? Why don't we think of this as we should? People say that social
:28:09. > :28:13.care is not like rocket science and I say it is much more complicated!
:28:14. > :28:18.Looking after people properly with complex needs, looking after all the
:28:19. > :28:22.groups mentioned behind me, and if we do it properly, not only is it
:28:23. > :28:26.symbolic of a decent and respectable society, but why should it cost
:28:27. > :28:35.more? Nobody had even try to find out if it costs more. I am on your
:28:36. > :28:38.team, here to argue that we should not be raising taxes, but one area
:28:39. > :28:41.of agreement we can find is that local councils have an unfair amount
:28:42. > :28:43.of pressure put on them to cut from social care. When we see things like
:28:44. > :28:47.the triple-lock being protected for electoral reasons, it is very hard
:28:48. > :28:50.to see how that 6 million per year is going towards protecting the
:28:51. > :28:54.triple-lock when social care is attacked. Pensioners vote
:28:55. > :28:59.disproportionately, of course. Certainly. But as you pointed out,
:29:00. > :29:02.the UK is facing its heaviest tax burden of 30 years and the state is
:29:03. > :29:06.taking 30% of British national income every year, and it is
:29:07. > :29:11.spending roughly 45% because of the deficit. Sorry to be tedious, I
:29:12. > :29:16.should make that apology more often! How do we pay for it? There are some
:29:17. > :29:20.practical things we can do. We need to stop protecting the vote blogs
:29:21. > :29:23.and put the billions towards things like the triple-lock into more
:29:24. > :29:28.impressive areas like social care. We need to do is roll more power to
:29:29. > :29:32.local councils. -- we need to devolve more power to local
:29:33. > :29:37.councils. The triple-lock is on pensions, by the way. And business
:29:38. > :29:42.rates. But we can do more. Or sales tax for local councils and I would
:29:43. > :29:46.devolve corporation tax to local councils. Get the money into the
:29:47. > :29:49.local councils so that we can care for our neighbours, the people next
:29:50. > :29:54.to us, and do it properly, but raising taxes right now is not an
:29:55. > :29:59.option. But a regressive tax hits the poor hardest. I would stay away
:30:00. > :30:04.from VAT personally and I would look more at business rates. Thank you. I
:30:05. > :30:08.know you want to come in, but I just want to hear from the audience first
:30:09. > :30:12.of all. You have had your hand up for some time.
:30:13. > :30:17.I disagree we should evolve more power to local councils, that is why
:30:18. > :30:22.we have patchy provision all over the UK right now. Currently, if you
:30:23. > :30:27.have over ?23,000 worth of assets, you are funding all your social care
:30:28. > :30:31.yourself. Because you have to. That's 40% of people. 30% of people
:30:32. > :30:35.are not getting any care whatsoever. What's happening to them? People are
:30:36. > :30:41.saying they don't want taxes raised but I don't see what other option we
:30:42. > :30:48.have. Surrey has a far higher proportion of self funders. They are
:30:49. > :30:51.very affluent. Right behind you. Me? Your time has come. How do we pay
:30:52. > :31:00.for this? I think somebody already said we
:31:01. > :31:06.already paid for it. Do you know, I'm sick and tired of hearing every
:31:07. > :31:14.day in the newspapers, TV about people getting old. LAUGHTER
:31:15. > :31:19.Tell me about it! It's either you die Young or you get old. We are
:31:20. > :31:29.getting older, more of us. Knocking on these elderly people. Ageing
:31:30. > :31:34.community, ageing this. Yeah. Their relatives fought in two world wars
:31:35. > :31:38.to build this country. Now that they need help from this country, they
:31:39. > :31:43.are being put on the back burner. They are being put in cold
:31:44. > :31:49.corridors, four hours and hours. Heartbreaking, isn't it? They are in
:31:50. > :31:55.pain, waiting to be seen. What's going on? What about the people of
:31:56. > :32:00.this country? I'm going to put that to Cristina. This is their country,
:32:01. > :32:05.they helped to build it, they should get number one care. APPLAUSE
:32:06. > :32:12.Let me put this to Cristina. People in this country never -- people who
:32:13. > :32:19.came into this country never put a penny into this country. Their
:32:20. > :32:23.relatives fought hard, husbands, sons, uncles, fought in the war,
:32:24. > :32:27.some never came back. People just come in through the gate getting
:32:28. > :32:32.everything and they are being penalised for being old? This is a
:32:33. > :32:36.disgrace on Britain. Put the Great back into Great Britain and Purdue
:32:37. > :32:42.are people first. Well done to Trump. Well done to Trump America
:32:43. > :32:49.and its people first. This contribution has taken an
:32:50. > :32:56.interesting turn! Can I... Can I please... It's a disgrace! It's a
:32:57. > :33:00.disgrace! That was impassioned. I'm ashamed of everybody. Give her a
:33:01. > :33:06.round of applause. Lots of points. I want to pick you up on one if I may.
:33:07. > :33:11.We need to look at ourselves, Cristina? Absolutely. It's what our
:33:12. > :33:15.cultural values. Those "Bed blockers" are people whom the NHS
:33:16. > :33:19.cannot bring back home because there is no one home, there is no one
:33:20. > :33:25.there for them. There's no child who they've raised and loved. There's no
:33:26. > :33:28.sibling. There's no neighbour. That's the problem. What we are
:33:29. > :33:33.looking at here is social care. We shouldn't think about it just in
:33:34. > :33:39.terms of is its local taxes, is it the central government that should
:33:40. > :33:43.help us? It's us. We owe our older generation the same that we owe our
:33:44. > :33:49.younger generation. Which is care. Absolute devotion dedication and
:33:50. > :33:53.that old-fashioned world, self-sacrifice. You realise what
:33:54. > :33:57.you're saying? People in their 70s, as the minister fails to appreciate
:33:58. > :34:03.recently, people in the late 60s and 70s looking after people in their
:34:04. > :34:08.late and 90s. Known. We are, actually. We're talking as if we
:34:09. > :34:10.don't live in a world where the work - life balance isn't bananas and
:34:11. > :34:15.women are no longer sitting at home working, sometimes working two jobs
:34:16. > :34:19.families. Like mine are spread all over the UK because they can't live
:34:20. > :34:23.in the South -- families like mine. One last thing, the real wonder of
:34:24. > :34:28.the original NHS was that it was part a new welfare state. It was
:34:29. > :34:34.built on changing the distribution of taxation. We've gone back in
:34:35. > :34:38.exactly the opposite direction. If you pay PAYE you pay a large amount
:34:39. > :34:41.of tax, large corporation, offshore person, someone who knows lots of
:34:42. > :34:45.fiddles and the means to avoidance and evasion are legion. And having
:34:46. > :34:52.introduced by government of the government. We are wasting, it's
:34:53. > :34:55.estimated, 200- ?300 billion on private finance initiatives. This is
:34:56. > :34:59.destroying us as communities. Playing on the never-never.
:35:00. > :35:06.Cristina, you didn't finish your point. Can I speak? Please finish
:35:07. > :35:09.your point. I don't think it's about money. Money needs someone to make
:35:10. > :35:13.priorities. It's not just about money. It's about what you value. I
:35:14. > :35:17.fear what we are saying to one another is that we only value what
:35:18. > :35:20.we make out of society, rather than what we can bring to society. Our
:35:21. > :35:25.government might feel like that, I certainly don't and I bet nobody in
:35:26. > :35:31.this room feels like that. When you go to a hospital ward and you see
:35:32. > :35:35.rows and rows of elderly people all by themselves and then you ask, do
:35:36. > :35:41.you have any children? They say, yes, but they haven't come to visit.
:35:42. > :35:45.Do you have any siblings? Yes, but they don't visit. I could give you
:35:46. > :35:49.the exact opposite picture. I would base my picture on research, not
:35:50. > :35:55.going round one place. Which taxes would you raise? First of all, an
:35:56. > :36:00.important point which hasn't been made yet is that society really
:36:01. > :36:03.needs to come to terms with the changing demography. The number of
:36:04. > :36:07.older people in society is growing fast. To put some figures on it,
:36:08. > :36:13.since 1980, the number of people above the age of 90 has tripled. In
:36:14. > :36:18.the next 20 years, the number of -- number of people over 80 will more
:36:19. > :36:22.than double. This will cause a major impact to both the health services
:36:23. > :36:28.and social services. With increasing in age, we will get more frail
:36:29. > :36:32.people. What's the solution? The solution is that there has been
:36:33. > :36:35.identified a care gap in terms of funding.
:36:36. > :36:41.Either the funding has to be diverted from other areas. Other
:36:42. > :36:45.areas of spending are equally important. Education, defence,
:36:46. > :36:50.policing. Where do we get it from? Which areas do we take from? If the
:36:51. > :36:55.politicians decide and then informed public needs to decide as well. If
:36:56. > :37:01.that gap cannot be closed by diverting other funds, then the only
:37:02. > :37:07.way is to raise some taxes. Which other funds can use it, as a man who
:37:08. > :37:10.knows this area and this stuff and understand the economy? Where would
:37:11. > :37:17.you identify the best place to actually take some money from?
:37:18. > :37:21.That's... Up for debate for politicians. At health care
:37:22. > :37:25.professionals, I'm not a health economist but what we can do is
:37:26. > :37:29.point out the deficiencies and what happened at the ground level. When
:37:30. > :37:35.the social care budget is reduced. I've been working in the NHS now for
:37:36. > :37:42.over 31 years. I've never seen it so bad. The amount of pressure on staff
:37:43. > :37:47.at the front door is enormous. People are under enormous pressure.
:37:48. > :37:51.And things can only get worse. Ibrahim, are you seeing... We know
:37:52. > :37:57.the traditional prevalent attitude in cultures... Generation upon
:37:58. > :38:03.generation living together, looking after each other, enjoying the
:38:04. > :38:08.wisdom of the elder generation. It's the wonderful quid pro quo of love,
:38:09. > :38:12.isn't it? Yes. Are you seeing something happening in Muslim
:38:13. > :38:16.communities where people are being put in homes? Are you seeing that
:38:17. > :38:24.happening? It's beginning to happen. It's a very sad development. As a
:38:25. > :38:27.segment of British society, nevertheless, we are still...
:38:28. > :38:32.Impacted upon, like everybody else. Despite our religious teachings.
:38:33. > :38:39.It just worries me if the establishing of Muslim care homes
:38:40. > :38:44.becomes... The norm. And we see more and more of that.
:38:45. > :38:49.Muhammad, peace be on him, said he who does not show kindness to young
:38:50. > :38:53.one that does not recognise the dignity and honour of elders is not
:38:54. > :39:00.one of us. We are not part of the human communities. We have two
:39:01. > :39:05.revisit how we set up our homes and families. Within my own extended
:39:06. > :39:11.family, there was a time when we had four generations living in one home.
:39:12. > :39:15.Younger couples are now husband and wife, both working, having grandma
:39:16. > :39:21.and grandad at home to look after the little ones to raise them.
:39:22. > :39:26.Incredibly enriching. To pass on the culture. It's not possible for
:39:27. > :39:28.everyone in a world which, Cristina, that's an excellent point and we've
:39:29. > :39:33.heard it before and we hear that again and again. That's not the real
:39:34. > :39:37.world for 70 people, is it? We have been talking about houses where you
:39:38. > :39:43.have one person living in a huge house all by herself or all by
:39:44. > :39:49.himself. And what better way of trying to, you know, re-stoke a
:39:50. > :39:54.social capital than to open the house and have a young family come
:39:55. > :40:02.in, to live in? Possibly a refugee to come and live in? Have you done
:40:03. > :40:08.that? No. It's very funny. A friend of mine has just done this. Come on!
:40:09. > :40:13.The real world! Hold on, the real world! We are talking about a
:40:14. > :40:17.housing crisis. Why? Why is a housing crisis? Because all we care
:40:18. > :40:21.about with housing is that it costs a lot! Housing crisis is another
:40:22. > :40:24.debate. All of these crises are coming at us because we were
:40:25. > :40:29.admitted to the elephant in the room. Last word. That the NHS is
:40:30. > :40:32.fundamentally in crisis because no one will consider reform. We haven't
:40:33. > :40:35.built enough homes. That is the option of health care all houses for
:40:36. > :40:39.the British people. That is the elephant in the the room that we
:40:40. > :40:40.need to talk about. Thank you for your contributions.
:40:41. > :40:43.You can join in all this morning's debates by logging
:40:44. > :40:44.on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and following the link
:40:45. > :40:48.And you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq.
:40:49. > :40:50.Tell us what you think about our last big question too.
:40:51. > :40:56.And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience at a future show you
:40:57. > :41:00.We're in Edinburgh next week, Birmingham on February 26th,
:41:01. > :41:07.and Newcastle-upon-Tyne the week after that.
:41:08. > :41:09.It's World Marriage Day today, honouring the partnership of husband
:41:10. > :41:12.and wife and their faithfulness to each other as the
:41:13. > :41:19.But across the globe, monogamy is not the most popular option.
:41:20. > :41:21.Six times as many societies, over 1,000, allow men
:41:22. > :41:29.Although only four allow women to have more than one husband.
:41:30. > :41:50.You run Polygam.com and second wife .com. He would like another wife?
:41:51. > :41:54.Yeah, why not? Thank you for joining us this week! LAUGHTER
:41:55. > :41:58.We have a bit more time than that. Why do you want another wife? It's
:41:59. > :42:01.my nature, the honourable guest over there said he is gay and he fought
:42:02. > :42:05.for his rights. In the similar manner, I believe I was born
:42:06. > :42:10.polygamists. It's my nature that I would like to have a larger family,
:42:11. > :42:14.more children, more wives. What does your current number one why think
:42:15. > :42:21.about this? She's a bit hesitant in all honesty. LAUGHTER
:42:22. > :42:23.Is she? Is she? That's a lot to do with the perception of everybody
:42:24. > :42:26.else, what they would think about her. When I sat down to get married
:42:27. > :42:28.and we discussed this and I put forward my thoughts. From a
:42:29. > :42:33.religious point of view it's absolutely acceptable. That's how we
:42:34. > :42:39.regulate our relationship. What about the inevitable jealousy? It
:42:40. > :42:48.does exist, it absolutely exists. How do I put this? LAUGHTER
:42:49. > :42:52.It's my turn? I don't mean like it's my turn to ask a question...
:42:53. > :42:58.LAUGHTER I mean, "It's my turn to night".
:42:59. > :43:02.With every relationship, relates the relationship is regulated with
:43:03. > :43:06.Scripture. -- this relationship is regulated. You must abide it
:43:07. > :43:10.unequally with all of your spouses. Timetable, fridge magnet? -- you
:43:11. > :43:13.must divide all of your time equally. In the US I see a lot of
:43:14. > :43:18.these relationships within the Christian sects, they are adopting
:43:19. > :43:25.that role, that model. All in the same house? No, not necessarily. But
:43:26. > :43:34.possibly? Possibly if everybody can sense. The house has to be quite big
:43:35. > :43:39.to accommodate them. It's difficult. What it comes down to... If someone
:43:40. > :43:45.were to be excluded, would it be, apologies for this, would it be
:43:46. > :43:52.acceptable for everybody to... Sleep in the same... No. Moral standards.
:43:53. > :43:58.Moral standards? You're talking about moral standards? LAUGHTER
:43:59. > :44:01.Yes, Cristina talked about raising taxes in the last debate, we raise
:44:02. > :44:07.our moral standards. It would never even come across for me to throw my
:44:08. > :44:12.parents into a home. I would chuck my parents out before that. Coming
:44:13. > :44:15.back to here, what polygyny and I stand for is bigger, stronger
:44:16. > :44:18.families. So we don't come to a situation where people don't have a
:44:19. > :44:22.support structure. We don't segregate ourselves into
:44:23. > :44:27.individuals. We stay as communities. I will be back with you. Harry
:44:28. > :44:32.Benson, research director at the marriage foundation. Whatever works
:44:33. > :44:37.for you? There are comedic possibilities there. I had a laugh.
:44:38. > :44:42.The oldest jokes known to humanity there in. But if it works to fore U
:44:43. > :44:45.and around the world, what's the problem? What people choose to do in
:44:46. > :44:47.private is their own business but don't bring other people into it and
:44:48. > :44:53.certainly don't bring children into it. APPLAUSE
:44:54. > :45:00.It's blindingly obvious, really. Monogamy is marriage. . One
:45:01. > :45:03.relationship, monogamy. Marriage is terrific for monogamy because it
:45:04. > :45:09.reconciles our two competing demands of human nature where we have the
:45:10. > :45:14.need for reliable love on the one hand. But we also have our
:45:15. > :45:19.fundamentally selfish nature on the other hand.
:45:20. > :45:25.When we commit to a marriage, we are offering reliable love to someone
:45:26. > :45:28.else and they offer it to us, and we get our needs are met and
:45:29. > :45:32.relationships basically work. They do because we have set out a clear
:45:33. > :45:37.plan for our future together. That is the whole deal of marriage. When
:45:38. > :45:40.you set out a plan for your future together, you get all the good
:45:41. > :45:45.things that make the relationship work coming into play. We care for
:45:46. > :46:00.one another. This might cut divorce rates. Divorce
:46:01. > :46:04.rates have falling for 25 years. Marriage is working very well. That
:46:05. > :46:06.is because people are not getting married. That is nonsense. The
:46:07. > :46:08.divorce rate is the proportion of people who get married. Look at how
:46:09. > :46:11.marriage actually works. If you are married before you have your baby,
:46:12. > :46:13.eight out of ten parents will still be together by the time their
:46:14. > :46:16.children are sitting the GCSEs. Only three out of ten will still be
:46:17. > :46:19.together if they are not married before they have a baby. That is the
:46:20. > :46:23.difference between the two and it is true across the social spectrum and
:46:24. > :46:31.across the developed world. This is a universal human issue. Committed
:46:32. > :46:34.people get married. It is very difficult to extricate the truth
:46:35. > :46:40.from statistics like that. You know that. You want to come back on that?
:46:41. > :46:46.You mentioned that monogamy is basically two people but a few years
:46:47. > :46:49.ago we didn't even recognise that gentleman's union. Society will
:46:50. > :46:53.catch up with this and I am here to voice that there are groups of
:46:54. > :46:57.people who want to live this way and as liberal people we have no right
:46:58. > :47:04.to impose our thought onto them. Would it be a problem for you if you
:47:05. > :47:08.had your four wives and some of them had a same-sex relationship with
:47:09. > :47:13.each other. Would that improve cohesion within the household? That
:47:14. > :47:22.wouldn't happen within my household. No, it wouldn't. I've got you. Carry
:47:23. > :47:27.on. I am a professional researcher. I maybe wrong about this. I have yet
:47:28. > :47:30.to see a piece of research that looks at the triangular relationship
:47:31. > :47:35.between three adults that gives the same kind of reliability of love
:47:36. > :47:39.that you get between two. Doesn't. You don't get the stability for
:47:40. > :47:47.children. Do what you like but don't bring children into it. Children are
:47:48. > :47:51.the biggest benefactors of such a relationship. Recent research
:47:52. > :47:55.conducted by the Canadian government where everybody was voicing that
:47:56. > :48:00.such relationships are harmful found the contrary. It benefits children
:48:01. > :48:09.more. The Canadian government, not me. Right, OK. Go on. I am 18, so I
:48:10. > :48:14.don't have enough experience to comment on marriage but you have got
:48:15. > :48:20.to start from somewhere! Thank you! I would like to ask the gentleman
:48:21. > :48:25.over there. You want a second wife. Are you willing to accept it if your
:48:26. > :48:33.wife has a second husband? Let's be honest, no. Are you aware of the
:48:34. > :48:39.phrase what is good for the goose is good for the gander? Is that truly
:48:40. > :48:49.polygamy or you just satisfying your own needs? Let's not forget this is
:48:50. > :48:55.an open discussion, that Britain is a very democratic country. If we
:48:56. > :49:02.allow polygamy in this country, what impact would that have on countries
:49:03. > :49:06.who have worse human records? Would women get more abused in these
:49:07. > :49:11.countries because they can point at Britain and say, look, the model of
:49:12. > :49:18.democracy, they allow a man to have two wives but they don't allow women
:49:19. > :49:24.to have two husbands? What a great audience we have got to date! Wait a
:49:25. > :49:30.minute, everyone. Calm down. It is getting a little bit too shouted.
:49:31. > :49:40.Your house will be like that in a few years! I know what you are going
:49:41. > :49:44.to state, Cristina. Is this a good thing? I don't think it is a good
:49:45. > :49:47.thing for women to think it takes four women to satisfy one man and a
:49:48. > :49:51.family to be built around one man saying his needs need to be
:49:52. > :49:55.satisfied. That is not what families are about and it is not what
:49:56. > :49:58.marriage is about and it is not the kind of role modelling I would like
:49:59. > :50:05.children to see. I think the role modelling that we want is to have a
:50:06. > :50:08.joint partnership, where there is a tremendous amount of self-sacrifice
:50:09. > :50:12.on both sides. A tremendous amount of duty and response ability on both
:50:13. > :50:18.sides. And none of this self gratification, lording it over four
:50:19. > :50:22.women. I mean, come on! At no point have I said that this is for
:50:23. > :50:27.everybody. It is for certain individuals who are capable of doing
:50:28. > :50:31.this. What makes you capable of doing this? It is my nature. What
:50:32. > :50:39.does that mean? I can't explain it to you. That is how I was born. What
:50:40. > :50:44.do you mean? Are you insatiable? I am just going to go back to my
:50:45. > :50:49.websites. We have websites, like polygamy .com, open to everybody,
:50:50. > :50:56.and we have 50% women signing up and not a single one was forced into
:50:57. > :51:01.signing up. On second wife .com, we launched it for just Muslims, and it
:51:02. > :51:05.is 25% women signing on. These women are often of the highest calibre,
:51:06. > :51:10.well educated, in very high positions. And for whatever reason,
:51:11. > :51:15.they signed up themselves. I like women of the highest calibre! No, we
:51:16. > :51:24.judge. I will be honest, we do. These are not battered women. This
:51:25. > :51:32.is the logically justified. -- do you think this is theologically
:51:33. > :51:41.justified? In what sense? From God? For me, the Koran and the Bible. Of
:51:42. > :51:46.the 24 mentioned profits, 33% of them had multiple wives. If it was
:51:47. > :51:49.acceptable in the eyes of God for his profits, the best of his
:51:50. > :51:57.creation, the best of the husbands, the best of everything, to have
:51:58. > :52:04.it... Wait a minute! You would accept somebody having an affair and
:52:05. > :52:11.if you don't bat an eyelid? Who here thinks it is theologically
:52:12. > :52:16.justifiable in the audience? Ibrahim , do you know people in this
:52:17. > :52:20.situation? Yes, I know a handful of people. Only one of them is still
:52:21. > :52:26.happily married to his two wives. The rest have all had a really hard
:52:27. > :52:31.time. What kind of hard time? There are not so many that I know, but in
:52:32. > :52:34.the cases that I know, the first wife has left the husband. The
:52:35. > :52:44.husband has been pressurised into leaving his second wife. We need to
:52:45. > :52:48.explore the allowances within Sharia that chapter four verse three
:52:49. > :52:52.mentions. With regard to the care of orphans, if you are fearful about
:52:53. > :52:56.the welfare and the well-being of them, when inheritance could be
:52:57. > :53:01.usurped by others, you marry their mother so that those orphans now
:53:02. > :53:06.have a father figure who can safeguard their interests. If you
:53:07. > :53:11.take a second, third and a fourth, be very mindful that you must treat
:53:12. > :53:24.them fairly. That is open to interpretation. Some Muslim men
:53:25. > :53:28.conveniently leave it there, but the verse carries on, it says if you
:53:29. > :53:32.cannot treat them fairly and equally then marry only one. If you look at
:53:33. > :53:39.Muhammad, peace be on him, he had many wives, but he remained married
:53:40. > :53:51.to just one woman up until the age of 50. After that, when he became in
:53:52. > :53:55.a position to be a prophet, statesman, and a political leader,
:53:56. > :53:59.and at the same time a widower, he set an example and chose to marry
:54:00. > :54:04.divorcees because they were not worthy of marriage in that culture.
:54:05. > :54:11.He married widows because they were not regarded as worthy of marrying.
:54:12. > :54:14.We have got to take this into context and interpreted properly. I
:54:15. > :54:18.hear what you are saying. Some thoughts from the audience and I
:54:19. > :54:22.have one about fairness. And the possibility of being fair. At the
:54:23. > :54:29.back? I think the gentleman over there is selfish by nature. Which
:54:30. > :54:32.one? He just wants to satisfy his own needs and he hasn't thought
:54:33. > :54:36.whether his wife wants to have another wife, whether his kids want
:54:37. > :54:39.another dad, because that is what it sounds like it is leading to. If it
:54:40. > :54:46.is in your nature to have more than one thing, just have it. That is
:54:47. > :54:53.complete rubbish. Me personally, the polygamy thing is not for me, but
:54:54. > :54:57.what I find in society is that people are more fond of deception
:54:58. > :55:01.than polygamy. There are lots of women out there who know their man
:55:02. > :55:07.has got another wife, maybe another woman, not married, but honesty. At
:55:08. > :55:11.the end of the day I might not agree with what you are saying but I
:55:12. > :55:18.respect you because you are at least putting it out there and you can say
:55:19. > :55:23.what you want. Transparency. How would you be sure that it is
:55:24. > :55:27.absolutely fair? A man can try his absolute best but he will never be
:55:28. > :55:36.at the pinnacle of fairness that he must still try. Would you prefer one
:55:37. > :55:41.of your wives to the others? Even if there is a preference, you keep that
:55:42. > :55:46.within yourself. You don't make it come out. You don't favour one over
:55:47. > :55:50.the other. If you buy one house, you buy the other house of equal
:55:51. > :55:54.stature. If you buy one a car, it doesn't have to be the exact same,
:55:55. > :56:02.but you buy something to her liking. He has got it worked out! What is
:56:03. > :56:11.the other option? You are in the first debate but we will let you
:56:12. > :56:16.back. He says it is his nature, I could come across somebody who is a
:56:17. > :56:21.paedophile by nature. Somebody else, it might be in their nature to sleep
:56:22. > :56:26.with somebody every day. Just because it is in your nature, in
:56:27. > :56:35.civilised society we have got to control that. Quick point? I made
:56:36. > :56:39.some promises to my wife when I first got married and she made them
:56:40. > :56:43.to me. It is about commitment and self-control. The idea of somebody
:56:44. > :56:47.else entering our marriage, it would be a disaster. It is terrible, this
:56:48. > :56:52.whole idea of having somebody else in a marriage. It is about love,
:56:53. > :56:57.expression for each other, compromise, being together. But what
:56:58. > :57:02.if your wife is OK with it? I know that mine would not be! Then it
:57:03. > :57:10.doesn't apply to you. I hope my wife is watching this! If she is not
:57:11. > :57:17.watching it now, you will make her watch it later! Probably. But I
:57:18. > :57:21.trust. I know it will only be as the marriage and that is so important to
:57:22. > :57:26.me and to so many people's marriages. The idea that you want
:57:27. > :57:32.somebody else in your marriage, I'm sorry, but no. That is OK if it is
:57:33. > :57:34.what works for you. But it is naive to think that people don't have
:57:35. > :57:42.extra marital affairs. This is honourable and upfront. How many
:57:43. > :57:47.wives? I am contemplating two and if it worked out really well, maybe a
:57:48. > :57:52.third. When the reasons why this was set up, is because it was not easy
:57:53. > :57:55.for me to do so because our society, they are laughing. 30 years ago they
:57:56. > :58:04.laughed at that gentleman there and I am happy to take the brunt of it.
:58:05. > :58:07.I have been mentioned a number of times. I don't think it is the same
:58:08. > :58:14.as the gay marriage issue because that was about the union of two
:58:15. > :58:17.people. In effect it is the same as opposite sex marriage but two
:58:18. > :58:22.individuals. I would say it is about genuine consent. If there is genuine
:58:23. > :58:33.consent amongst both parties, then I think it should be considered. What
:58:34. > :58:35.is that Abba song? I do, I do, I do, I do! Thank you for your honesty
:58:36. > :58:38.this morning. There we go. As always, the debates will continue
:58:39. > :58:41.online and on Twitter. Next week we're in my home town,
:58:42. > :58:44.Edinburgh, so do join us then. But for now, it's goodbye from
:58:45. > :58:49.Leicester and have a great Sunday.