:00:00. > :00:07.Today on The Big Questions: cyber warfare from Russia; arming
:00:08. > :00:30.Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
:00:31. > :00:33.Today we're live from Leith Academy in Edinburgh.
:00:34. > :00:40.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
:00:41. > :00:44.On Tuesday, the Queen opened the new National Cyber
:00:45. > :00:51.Over the last three months, 188 attacks have seen "significant
:00:52. > :00:53.losses of personal data, significant intrusions
:00:54. > :00:57.by hostile state actors, and significant reconnaissance
:00:58. > :00:58.against critical national infrastructure", the centre's
:00:59. > :01:06.And he picked out Russian cyber attacks on "critical
:01:07. > :01:08.national industries and political and democratic processes
:01:09. > :01:21.Is Russian cyber warfare undermining the West?
:01:22. > :01:29.Giles, how much of a threat is President Putin's Russian to us?
:01:30. > :01:35.It's like the bad old days of the Cold War. It's very familiar, those
:01:36. > :01:39.of us who have seen what's happening in the past, very familiar process.
:01:40. > :01:43.Different leadership in the country but all these years later, many
:01:44. > :01:48.things happening today that have been happening before. What are they
:01:49. > :01:52.trying to do, what is their aim? The real aim of the Russian state is to
:01:53. > :01:57.increase its own prestige to its own people, to the rest of the world and
:01:58. > :02:01.the power that it exerts over its neighbours. In order to do that it
:02:02. > :02:06.wants to make sure that any potential opposition abroad is
:02:07. > :02:10.negated, that they manage to get governments and individuals in power
:02:11. > :02:14.who they favour and part of the reasons why they are trolling for
:02:15. > :02:19.information and these sorts of things is because I think they are
:02:20. > :02:24.looking for compromising material and various other things which
:02:25. > :02:31.Ulster and then their position. Dr Tara McCormack, international cyber
:02:32. > :02:36.relations expert at Leicester University, we have a gangster state
:02:37. > :02:40.trying to undermine our liberal values and western democracy? No, in
:02:41. > :02:45.a nutshell, the accusations boiled down to the argument that Russia is
:02:46. > :02:51.trying to interfere in the democratic process of the United
:02:52. > :02:56.States of America by putting in power, as my colleague has said,
:02:57. > :03:01.favourable... But that's not true. Clinton lost the election fair and
:03:02. > :03:08.square. Before the e-mails were released, opinion polls showed
:03:09. > :03:11.Donald Trump is a serious contender. At the American media been doing its
:03:12. > :03:16.job, it would have been saying, how is it possible that the Democratic
:03:17. > :03:24.candidate is so unpopular that this crazy man is a serious contender?
:03:25. > :03:28.It's a blame game? Absolutely. In Europe, the ADF in Germany has
:03:29. > :03:37.gained votes because of Angela Merkel's policies. And some bought
:03:38. > :03:44.from President Putin? The problems in Europe, Marine Le Pen... Kurt
:03:45. > :03:47.fielders, the National front, they are not gaining votes because of
:03:48. > :03:51.anything Russia is doing. They are gaining votes there and square
:03:52. > :03:55.because of problems within those countries and I would like to point
:03:56. > :04:01.out, social, political, economic problems we know about. Marine Le
:04:02. > :04:06.Pen is an interesting example, the political machine is financed by
:04:07. > :04:10.Moscow friendly banks, supposedly loans, 3 million euros, whether
:04:11. > :04:13.that's adding bullets or not it's adding to their political efficiency
:04:14. > :04:17.is a party because they are a party which supports the removal of
:04:18. > :04:22.sanctions against Russia. To me it's a no-brainer, whether it's impact on
:04:23. > :04:25.other they are attempting to change the way that the French people are
:04:26. > :04:31.going to vote. Whether they are successful is not the issue. I be a
:04:32. > :04:37.threat? I will tell you what is the threat. It is claiming our political
:04:38. > :04:43.problems on Russia. That is the real threat...
:04:44. > :04:47.APPLAUSE It entirely lets our democratic
:04:48. > :04:50.elite of the hook because they can say, not us, it's Russia. And I
:04:51. > :04:55.think this is crucial, it delegitimise us every person in
:04:56. > :04:58.America who voted for Donald Trump, basically being told and simply
:04:59. > :05:01.confirming what he said, they are being told, your vote wasn't a vote
:05:02. > :05:08.against the political establishment... Into diversionary
:05:09. > :05:13.tactic? Ben Nimmo, isn't there a case of its the Reds under the bed
:05:14. > :05:18.again? New bogeyman. The Bond villain with a laptop. You need to
:05:19. > :05:23.be curve for the bad and let's be clear. We are not talking about
:05:24. > :05:29.Russia as a country, it is a huge, diverse and welcoming country, but
:05:30. > :05:33.as a government, it's illegally invaded and annexed Crimea, it's
:05:34. > :05:39.followed an undeclared war in Ukraine, it provided the weapon
:05:40. > :05:43.which shot down the Malaysia Airlines MH 370, it was involved in
:05:44. > :05:48.the hacking of the Democratic National Convention... And a plot to
:05:49. > :05:53.murder the President of Montenegro, in the paper today? I saw it in the
:05:54. > :05:57.papers but have no background. There is a pattern of disruptive
:05:58. > :06:02.behaviour, on top of that, in much bigger issue for the democracy as a
:06:03. > :06:06.whole, I would think it is an information crisis, we are seeing
:06:07. > :06:11.more disinformation from more people on more channels than at any time in
:06:12. > :06:14.human history. Part of that is fed by the Russian government and the
:06:15. > :06:18.Russian propaganda machine, a great part is not an thing you look at
:06:19. > :06:22.propaganda you need to think, is the problem the lie that is being sold
:06:23. > :06:26.or is that the people who are believing it and spreading it, and
:06:27. > :06:29.genuinely think they are doing the right thing? If they believe they
:06:30. > :06:34.are spreading a story which is true, they are doing for anybody does in
:06:35. > :06:39.dialogue, the problem is the source, if people have a grievance and they
:06:40. > :06:43.believe that lie because it matches the grievance, you have got to
:06:44. > :06:48.address the grievance, not the light. Confirmation bias?
:06:49. > :06:52.Absolutely. Look at the grievance. A couple of you want to speak. We were
:06:53. > :06:57.talking about the weapon that shop down the Malaysia Airlines, that and
:06:58. > :07:02.a couple of things made you raise... We have a lot of allegations. Is
:07:03. > :07:07.that just an allegation? I'm afraid it is and that is a problem. Yes, it
:07:08. > :07:15.is, and when we talk about the hacking or the fishing exercise that
:07:16. > :07:22.got protesters e-mails,... Just an allegation? If you read industry
:07:23. > :07:26.reports on that that was traced to a cosy Berrer hacking group. That is
:07:27. > :07:34.not the case. Those are still allegations. Propaganda? Even if
:07:35. > :07:39.that is so, there is a problem in terms of political positions that we
:07:40. > :07:46.disagree with our being friend is propaganda. Russia today, it's not
:07:47. > :07:53.hiding, it's called Russia today... We have the man from Sputnik news to
:07:54. > :07:57.talk to! These are political positions. Different angles,
:07:58. > :08:02.perceptions. Political argument. Nikolai Gorshkov, I want to bring
:08:03. > :08:07.him in, editor of Sputnik news. We hear about this, elections coming
:08:08. > :08:11.up, trying to undermine the opponents of Marine Le Pen and
:08:12. > :08:15.undermining the opponent of Kurt fielders, anything that will
:08:16. > :08:20.ultimately put a politician in place will be antenatal and anti EU. If I
:08:21. > :08:27.may say so provocatively, your puppet masters, they bombed table
:08:28. > :08:33.of? When I say the moral road as North Korea, the leader there, his
:08:34. > :08:40.half-brother killed this week... Assassinations. We are journalists,
:08:41. > :08:47.we are a newsagency and we are given an opportunity to see other angles,
:08:48. > :08:53.more context, background. On the website, for example, we worked just
:08:54. > :08:57.like any other media, we are part of the media set up, we may be
:08:58. > :09:04.newcomers to the scene but the Masters? No, why should anyone be a
:09:05. > :09:09.puppet master? It is demeaning the people of the world, of any country,
:09:10. > :09:14.assuming you can actually influence their opinion to such an extent that
:09:15. > :09:22.they would vote against their own best interests. So, it's not the
:09:23. > :09:29.case. Undermining, talking about undermining governments, bubbly one
:09:30. > :09:32.of the best examples of undermining the government was the so-called
:09:33. > :09:39.event in 1924, a letter purportedly written by the leader of the
:09:40. > :09:43.Communist International, urging British Communists and labour to
:09:44. > :09:48.work against... You are going back a bit. It brought down the Labour
:09:49. > :09:56.Government. Alex, you are looking cynical. In a second, Giles has come
:09:57. > :09:59.straight in to say something. I am an historian, I know the story of
:10:00. > :10:04.that letter and I know for a fact the Labour Government was doomed
:10:05. > :10:08.before the letter came out. Can we bring it into the present? I also
:10:09. > :10:12.know, but you see, the lies that come out now, these are the lies,
:10:13. > :10:20.this story is continually being retold. That letter was so accurate
:10:21. > :10:24.that actually, the Communist Party headquarters reprimanded the people
:10:25. > :10:28.in Moscow for actually writing a letter like that. What we actually
:10:29. > :10:33.have to realise is that lies from the past and present are repeated so
:10:34. > :10:36.many times as my more modern colleagues will agree and as a
:10:37. > :10:42.result of that, people just believe them, they move on and they add up.
:10:43. > :10:46.That was the Soviet modus operandi and we see a lot of reflection is
:10:47. > :10:53.now in what's happening. Alex, what do you say to our friend? The notion
:10:54. > :10:56.that Sputnik in Russia today are another news organisation, you can
:10:57. > :11:00.understand why they want you to believe that but it isn't true, its
:11:01. > :11:04.foundational charter exists to propagate the interests and point of
:11:05. > :11:10.view of the Russian state. It's an instrument... Where does it say so?
:11:11. > :11:15.In your foundation charter. What we see, it works, it spreads rumours,
:11:16. > :11:19.it suggests Russia today and Sputnik they suggest the independence
:11:20. > :11:23.referendum in Scotland in 2014 was rigged, no evidence to support this
:11:24. > :11:25.whatsoever but it's a way of undermining the legitimacy of
:11:26. > :11:32.western institutions. What you also get and you see it from useful
:11:33. > :11:36.idiots, some of them in this room today, there is no truth, different
:11:37. > :11:40.opinions. Everything is a point of view and we can't really be sure, we
:11:41. > :11:44.are certainly no better than them, we can't make any value judgments.
:11:45. > :11:50.This is how the Russian media operation works because it's done in
:11:51. > :11:55.a way to devalue the very concept of truth itself and thereby devaluing
:11:56. > :12:00.the concept... That phrase useful idiots is right from the height of
:12:01. > :12:03.the 1930s, people who went to Stalinist Russia and all they got
:12:04. > :12:07.was the smell of fresh paint because they were taken to various places.
:12:08. > :12:13.Who are the useful idiots in Mr Newall? There is one here. I'm
:12:14. > :12:21.afraid that reveals... No evidence of wrongdoing by Russia. Absolutely
:12:22. > :12:25.not. I'm afraid... They didn't shoot down a Malaysian airline, it's just
:12:26. > :12:29.scaremongering. Absolutely not. My point is...
:12:30. > :12:35.APPLAUSE Would anyone in the audience like
:12:36. > :12:40.to... Just one second, I will be with you. Good morning. How are you
:12:41. > :12:44.doing? I am good, thank you. Demonstrated quite clearly there
:12:45. > :12:47.were fake news agencies said up by Russia and America to influence the
:12:48. > :12:52.American election. That is not the case. You maybe have to concede the
:12:53. > :12:57.American electorate were radicalised by the state rubber gander. That's
:12:58. > :13:03.absolutely not the case. Can I jumping? What is the founding
:13:04. > :13:10.document? If the presidential decree signed by President Putin on the 9th
:13:11. > :13:12.of December 2013, your parent company, it says in paragraph four
:13:13. > :13:18.that the purpose of this newsagency is to communicate the state policy
:13:19. > :13:22.the Russian Federation abroad. OK? Compare that with the BBC charter
:13:23. > :13:27.which says the purpose of the BBC is to be independent and impartial.
:13:28. > :13:32.Then look at your reporting. Good example, second ever break last, I
:13:33. > :13:37.do this all the time, Donald Tusk presents his proposals for how to
:13:38. > :13:40.keep Britain in the EU, the vote league campaign issues a press
:13:41. > :13:45.release on it, there are main campaign issues a press release,
:13:46. > :13:51.Reuters in their reporting quoted both press releases, Sputnik courted
:13:52. > :13:54.the leave press release and not remain press release. Look at the
:13:55. > :14:00.coverage over the last two weeks, last week the BBC did a feature on
:14:01. > :14:03.Sputnik and the allegations that it was a propaganda outlet which quoted
:14:04. > :14:12.you saying that we are not. That is balanced journalism. Is the BBC
:14:13. > :14:18.blame us? No. Let me finish. Selective reporting? I am being
:14:19. > :14:22.devils advocate. OK. The BBC quoted the allegations against Sputnik and
:14:23. > :14:26.the response, the week before, Sputnik France ran a feature on
:14:27. > :14:33.allegations of propaganda and bias by the French media in favour of
:14:34. > :14:37.Emmanuel Micron, only one person was quoted in that story, a political
:14:38. > :14:40.opponent of his who was accusing French journalists of going to a
:14:41. > :14:46.Moscow rally and putting on his T-shirts. No French journalist was
:14:47. > :14:50.interviewed in that... And if I may say, it said on Sputnik that he was
:14:51. > :14:56.backed by a cold, very rich gay lobby. , phobic as well? I think
:14:57. > :15:05.that was a French parliamentarian. A quote. You make coverage of any
:15:06. > :15:11.issue over the time, nit-picking, individual reports. Look at it all
:15:12. > :15:15.the time. And then you will see there is Allen and with Brexit, we
:15:16. > :15:21.had a radio programme coming out of here from Edinburgh. And it was
:15:22. > :15:37.given enough time to all sides of the argument. This is the new Cold
:15:38. > :15:45.War. Coming back on Brecht -- Brexit, editorials referred to the
:15:46. > :15:47.EU as a crumbling edifice, relentlessly pummelling member
:15:48. > :15:52.states, undermining democracy and workers' rights. That was Sputnik's
:15:53. > :15:59.editorials in the month before Brexit. Not one but many. How much
:16:00. > :16:07.of a threat through cyber warfare is Vladimir Putin's Russia? If you look
:16:08. > :16:11.in terms of hacking secrets, that is happening on all sides. If British
:16:12. > :16:15.intelligence is not trying to get Russia's secrets, what are they
:16:16. > :16:25.playing at? They are not doing their job. Western powers have constantly
:16:26. > :16:36.intervened in other elections. Whether it is backing a military
:16:37. > :16:43.coup in Chile or otherwise. Interference happens. Did it
:16:44. > :16:53.influence the American election? The one big accusation is leaking
:16:54. > :16:58.Democratic Party e-mails. It was true that the Democratic party
:16:59. > :17:06.establishment was gaming the nomination process to make sure
:17:07. > :17:10.Hillary Clinton won. That is anti-democratic as far as I am
:17:11. > :17:16.concerned. I am not concerned about e-mails. We are all at it, this is
:17:17. > :17:22.Rob's point. Is there moral equivalence? Not at all. Because
:17:23. > :17:25.when we bombed Libya it is good? When you have Russia today putting
:17:26. > :17:30.out a programme that even they had to take off which was talking about
:17:31. > :17:39.TM death squads dismembering children in Ukrainian villages. --
:17:40. > :17:45.Kiev death squads. That the Ukrainians had taken that the oldest
:17:46. > :17:49.to commit genocide. This is dangerous propaganda and as far as
:17:50. > :17:52.moral equivalence is concerned, there are two grades on which we
:17:53. > :17:58.should look at any country, the amount of foreign development aid
:17:59. > :18:02.they give and the corruption index. Those are very clear. If you're
:18:03. > :18:09.going to talk about development aid that is given, this is not arms aid,
:18:10. > :18:15.the US gives 30 billion a year. In this country we give 10 billion a
:18:16. > :18:21.year. Then go on with corruption index. The international corruption
:18:22. > :18:28.index, generally recognised, 176 countries. All the way down, ten is
:18:29. > :18:37.the UK and Germany. 18 is the United States. 130, below Pakistan, that is
:18:38. > :18:42.Russia. It is early days for capitalism there! It fell into the
:18:43. > :18:51.hands of the gangsters. Let me ask you this. Look how many refugees
:18:52. > :18:58.Russia takes. I want to explore, with Naomi, the human rights
:18:59. > :19:02.situation with Amnesty International. We are talking about
:19:03. > :19:13.a country that has sponsored State doping, the lakes we have seen since
:19:14. > :19:17.China and East Germany. It has just decriminalised domestic violence.
:19:18. > :19:24.How bad is the human rights record? It is very bad. Amnesty produces an
:19:25. > :19:27.annual report which looks at the human rights violations of every
:19:28. > :19:34.country in the world. Certainly, in Russia they are IQs courts -- a huge
:19:35. > :19:43.cause for concern. The persecution of journalists within Russia are
:19:44. > :19:47.terrible, any dissent. And their involvement in Syria, propping up a
:19:48. > :19:56.regime that looks like it has been involved in war crimes. When it
:19:57. > :20:06.reported on the murder of prisoners, Russia was saying it was fake news.
:20:07. > :20:11.All these dark arts is being used to dismiss without any kind of evidence
:20:12. > :20:22.is real, credible reports of human rights abuses happening around the
:20:23. > :20:29.world including in Syria. We hear references as too, what is the
:20:30. > :20:34.evidence? The human rights observers that claim to have extensive
:20:35. > :20:38.networks, but what are these contacts? How do they contact them?
:20:39. > :20:43.The landlines are working perfectly well in Syria, they can contact
:20:44. > :20:50.anybody? Who are these people and what is the credibility of them? A
:20:51. > :20:57.lot of those accusations and allegations are untrue. If there is
:20:58. > :20:59.a war situation, crimes are being committed, they are being
:21:00. > :21:10.investigated as well. Everybody makes mistakes. It is a civil war
:21:11. > :21:14.with foreign interference. A lot of claim and counterclaim is
:21:15. > :21:19.unsupported by evidence and what we are asking for is evidence. We've
:21:20. > :21:28.been supporting people who chopped limbs off. There are no good actors
:21:29. > :21:32.in Syria, but what you have is the classic example of the way that
:21:33. > :21:37.Russia's propaganda outlets work. There is no such thing as the truth.
:21:38. > :21:42.You cannot know what is going on and anyone in the West who tells you
:21:43. > :21:47.what is going on is lying to you. It is a way of undermining the very
:21:48. > :21:52.concept of truth. You call yourself a journalist. You are not a
:21:53. > :21:58.journalist. Your organisation is not a journalistic outlet. It is a
:21:59. > :22:04.propaganda front 20 -- propaganda front to put forward the opinions of
:22:05. > :22:08.the Russian regime. It is a disgrace and journalists who stand up to it
:22:09. > :22:17.have the unfortunate habit of ending up dead. You raise the very good
:22:18. > :22:25.point. Where is the moral outrage about the fact that we support and
:22:26. > :22:28.arm Al-Qaeda groups in Syria? That is not propaganda, that is not
:22:29. > :22:37.weapon icing disinformation, that is a fact. It is a moral equivalence
:22:38. > :22:38.and it is as cheap as it is lazy. That was absolutely fascinating,
:22:39. > :23:00.thank you. You might well logon. We are debating whether police
:23:01. > :23:08.should be armed and whether God sees soma -- homosexuality as a sin. Get
:23:09. > :23:19.in touch with thoughts about the programme. A new survey published
:23:20. > :23:22.this week with the Metropolitan Police force found growing support
:23:23. > :23:28.for the police to carry firearms or teasers. 75% of those questioned
:23:29. > :23:36.wanted all officers to be issued with teasers. But in more than 40%
:23:37. > :23:41.of the incidents in London, the teasers were drawn on black or mixed
:23:42. > :23:51.race people despite their making up less than 16% of the population.
:23:52. > :23:59.Should more police be armed? We were talking in our last debate about the
:24:00. > :24:11.cyber threat. We are taking it onto the streets, aren't we? There's a
:24:12. > :24:14.lot of danger. I had a phone in on five live. It is terrifying. Who
:24:15. > :24:25.would want to be a policeman on the front line? When we talk about this,
:24:26. > :24:33.people think about terrorism, it is the trump card. People think about a
:24:34. > :24:41.ticking time bomb. It is not the reality of it. Violent crime as
:24:42. > :24:55.well. Yes, there are armed response units. There is an over
:24:56. > :25:00.representation. Armed response units can only use guns or teasers in very
:25:01. > :25:07.specific circumstances. When life or serious injury is at an imminent
:25:08. > :25:12.threat. And the risk is that the more police officers have guns or
:25:13. > :25:23.teasers, the criteria will be expanded. Those who are most likely
:25:24. > :25:32.to campaign for restrictions are armed police themselves. They are
:25:33. > :25:36.more regularly deploying these weapons and that feeds into their
:25:37. > :25:42.judgment. They know the scenario is that, and whether they should draw
:25:43. > :25:46.or not. Police on the beat will not have the same kind of training. They
:25:47. > :25:53.will not be deploying in the same kind of weird and their judgment
:25:54. > :26:03.will not be as good as specified trade policeman. Unfortunately
:26:04. > :26:08.there's quite a of factual inaccuracy in what Naomi has said
:26:09. > :26:18.although clearly there needs to be understanding. Were you an armed
:26:19. > :26:24.officer? I was, for six years. There needs to be a proper debate in
:26:25. > :26:30.relation to black and minority ethnic people. We been having that
:26:31. > :26:38.the big four years. Absolutely. The bottom line is my members have to
:26:39. > :26:41.deal with these incidents. They are the people running towards danger
:26:42. > :26:48.when everyone else is running away and it is absolutely vital that as a
:26:49. > :26:51.society, who actually are very supportive of the police service,
:26:52. > :26:54.make sure their officers are equipped to deal with what they
:26:55. > :26:58.face. In relation to the training issue that Naomi Reyes, saying that
:26:59. > :27:00.by deploying more officers with teasers there would be a degradation
:27:01. > :27:07.of training, that is absolute nonsense. I don't know why you're
:27:08. > :27:15.seeing it is not because we have been saying this should be a greater
:27:16. > :27:23.role out of taser. The standards needs to be maintained. The British
:27:24. > :27:29.police service has the highest level of training with this of any in the
:27:30. > :27:36.UK. Who are these officers campaigning against that having
:27:37. > :27:40.better protection? Once we talked to, I'm not saying they are
:27:41. > :27:50.campaigning but they know the actual tactical situation on the ground.
:27:51. > :28:02.Teasers are torture equipment. We cannot all go out and buy one. Why
:28:03. > :28:10.are you laughing? I find it extraordinary. We need to look at
:28:11. > :28:15.the reality. It is what they face on a daily basis. The question is
:28:16. > :28:21.whether we need more armed police officers and I think the argument at
:28:22. > :28:27.the moment is that we do. Is the terror threat something to do with
:28:28. > :28:35.it? If you look at the terror threat, it is likely we will face
:28:36. > :28:39.some of the atrocities. Can you think of an atrocity we've had in
:28:40. > :28:43.this country over the last 20 years that if there had been an armed
:28:44. > :28:50.response unit closer at hand, lives would have been saved? You could
:28:51. > :28:57.pick on a number of incidents, the very real one was Derek Bird, one
:28:58. > :29:05.man, one shot gun in Cumbria. That would be a situation. Not terrorism.
:29:06. > :29:11.The public have to understand that at this moment in time we are facing
:29:12. > :29:22.a terrible threat to our country and that is, I was giving an interview
:29:23. > :29:25.about the terrible situations in Paris and here we are, everybody
:29:26. > :29:30.within the police service and a lot of the public recognise we need are
:29:31. > :29:36.pleased to be able to do their job. At the moment we got 3% of our
:29:37. > :29:44.police officers trained up to carry firearms. In Scotland it is even
:29:45. > :29:46.less. And it was said they don't need any further roll-out in
:29:47. > :29:56.Scotland because it will not actually a the threat -- not address
:29:57. > :30:04.the threat of terrorism. It seems to me the question is, how do you deal
:30:05. > :30:08.with conflict? We try to engage with the issues of conflict rather than
:30:09. > :30:13.the reaction. I struggled to find any circumstance in which adding
:30:14. > :30:16.weapons to a place of conflict improves the situation. What it will
:30:17. > :30:21.do is put more officers in a situation where they are asking the
:30:22. > :30:27.question, do I use my weapon as opposed to how do I deal with a
:30:28. > :30:30.situation? Split second. The thing about the gun, not the person they
:30:31. > :30:35.communicate with, the example you gave was not a threat to the country
:30:36. > :30:42.it was sadly ill health situation and as a consequence...
:30:43. > :30:48.The reality is somewhat different and I will give that reality check
:30:49. > :30:53.now. In England and Wales, certainly the last 12 months, police have
:30:54. > :31:00.attended around 14,000 armed incidents and have only ever drawn
:31:01. > :31:05.and used their weapons on zero they are not trigger-happy, when we face
:31:06. > :31:13.a serious threat, Lee Rigby, in London, it took armed officers 15
:31:14. > :31:17.minutes to get there and look elsewhere, the way the terrorists
:31:18. > :31:21.are evolving, the last attack was in a rural area, if that happens in
:31:22. > :31:24.England and Wales or Scotland and it is not in one of the big
:31:25. > :31:29.conurbations what do the public expect police to do? You're talking
:31:30. > :31:32.about more armed response teams, people sitting around most of the
:31:33. > :31:38.time twiddling their thumbs hopefully, but they can get to the
:31:39. > :31:43.Isle of Skye quickly. Can I come back? In a second, a gentle man had
:31:44. > :31:49.his hand up, any other points... We should put more trust in the police.
:31:50. > :31:50.If they say they need more armed officers, it's a highly skilled
:31:51. > :31:53.job... APPLAUSE
:31:54. > :31:59.We should trust them. At the back, hello. Good morning, I take a
:32:00. > :32:04.pragmatic view on this, when I was a volunteer at the Commonwealth Games,
:32:05. > :32:07.we had armed police officers regularly on duty, two of them and
:32:08. > :32:10.when I first saw the guns I was scared but as time went on I felt
:32:11. > :32:15.more reassured because adult protected. In terms of everyday
:32:16. > :32:18.policing I would not in favour of regular armed police but in major
:32:19. > :32:22.situations like the Commonwealth Games or any other major event, I
:32:23. > :32:26.think it's the sensible thing to have armed police on the beat.
:32:27. > :32:29.APPLAUSE Thanks for your fantastic
:32:30. > :32:32.volunteering work in that amazing Commonwealth Games, you did an
:32:33. > :32:38.amazing job. We are used to it. Our friend says we are used to it, we
:32:39. > :32:43.see it in the House of Commons, add airports, the Scottish Parliament,
:32:44. > :32:45.Alex Massie, what is the problem? A significant difference between that
:32:46. > :32:49.kind of policing and those adventurer talking about and the
:32:50. > :32:54.routine arming of the bobby on the beat. The lack of firearms in
:32:55. > :32:58.British police has almost been the defining feature of British policing
:32:59. > :33:02.for 200 years and I think changing that now for no real good reason,
:33:03. > :33:08.certainly not on the bike at any evidence that it is necessary, would
:33:09. > :33:10.be an extremely unfortunate and retrograde move. It would say
:33:11. > :33:14.something rather troubling about our society and the relationship between
:33:15. > :33:18.the citizen and the police force and that's something that is actually
:33:19. > :33:23.quite important. I think this applies to not just firearms with
:33:24. > :33:26.police but also the use of tasers, if you aren't the police as a
:33:27. > :33:33.routine matter, you will encourage the escalation of force... A kind of
:33:34. > :33:39.answers? And people will die. Don't worry. Don't worry, I know it's
:33:40. > :33:45.frustrating. I am looking forward to hearing it, I got the auctioneers
:33:46. > :33:49.nod from them. I wanted to throw into question, you talked about the
:33:50. > :33:53.quality of training and the quality of the best in the world, how are
:33:54. > :33:56.you going to maintain the quality if you are massively increasing the
:33:57. > :34:03.quantity? Something we see Thai and and again. Let Steve on that. --
:34:04. > :34:06.time and again. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, look at
:34:07. > :34:11.the regime, make sure it's maintained, it's a stance we have
:34:12. > :34:16.insured has been maintained and we recognise that. We are not in the
:34:17. > :34:20.realm of getting a taser out of the cupboard, saying to someone do
:34:21. > :34:24.that... But I must come back with a couple of comments in relation to
:34:25. > :34:27.Alex. He talks about arming the bobby on the beat and we are not
:34:28. > :34:31.talking about that at all. The service doesn't want it, the public
:34:32. > :34:37.doesn't want it and I don't want to see it, I want to see a bobby on the
:34:38. > :34:40.beat, I don't know where he's been. We've lost 22,000 police officers,
:34:41. > :34:45.there aren't officers on the beat, what you have or officers who have
:34:46. > :34:50.to respond from one job to the next to the next and when they respond,
:34:51. > :34:54.because there is no resilience in the service, they need to have
:34:55. > :34:59.tactical options to deal with... Norway, gone in the car? Whether it
:35:00. > :35:03.be a gun in the car or a taser in the car, tactical options and the
:35:04. > :35:07.understanding of what you will be faced with, it's ridiculous sending
:35:08. > :35:10.the scarce resource of a police officer without the options to deal
:35:11. > :35:14.with that. It's all very well turning up and saying that guy has a
:35:15. > :35:19.knife, I need to colonise specialist team but I will keep him chatting,
:35:20. > :35:22.it doesn't work like that. Three questions, one about authority
:35:23. > :35:27.versus consent, having someone wandering around, routinely being
:35:28. > :35:30.able to pull a gun on you, means the relationship changes between the
:35:31. > :35:35.police force and the people they are policing. Secondly, does it make us
:35:36. > :35:41.safer? For every benefit we might get in terms of being able to arrest
:35:42. > :35:46.an individual who is also armed, there is the threat of the arms
:35:47. > :35:49.race, criminals will routinely armed themselves knowing that they are
:35:50. > :35:58.going to face armed officers. Does it make us feel safer? Mike... The
:35:59. > :36:02.third thing, does it make us feel safer and I am sorry, I'm interested
:36:03. > :36:05.in the comments about the Commonwealth Games, when I go to a
:36:06. > :36:07.major airport and they see police with machine guns I don't feel
:36:08. > :36:13.safer. APPLAUSE
:36:14. > :36:16.The last thing I would want a police officer to do is start using it in a
:36:17. > :36:21.crowded place. The reality is the threat that our men and women in the
:36:22. > :36:26.police face, first and foremost, those officers carry firearms in
:36:27. > :36:30.this country and I've alluded to the fact there isn't many of them, they
:36:31. > :36:34.are all volunteers. We are looking to increase the officers carrying
:36:35. > :36:41.firearms are about 1000... Here's the thing, tasers, why is it that
:36:42. > :36:45.black and minority ethnic people are disproportionately targeted, why is
:36:46. > :36:49.that? It depends on where you look from, look in London, I've worked
:36:50. > :36:53.there, and I've worked in rural North Yorkshire. The figures are
:36:54. > :36:58.stark. You can compare different figures but that's polluting the
:36:59. > :37:01.point which is we have got to go back, our country is facing the
:37:02. > :37:07.greatest threat since the Second World War, are we in the police
:37:08. > :37:11.service able to deal with that threat? If a terrorist starts
:37:12. > :37:14.walking down the street and don't say it won't happen, the
:37:15. > :37:17.intelligence is there to say it is men and women are telling us we
:37:18. > :37:23.would really, really struggled to cope and then... Would you have shot
:37:24. > :37:27.the killers of Lee Rigby? Use the police officers, Lee Rigby, they
:37:28. > :37:30.turned up, they were waiting, it took 15 minutes to get there, the
:37:31. > :37:35.terrorists were waiting, the police did what they do to stop them, like
:37:36. > :37:38.any other police service in the world, they rendered first aid and
:37:39. > :37:44.saved their lives, you won't see that anywhere else in the world. The
:37:45. > :37:47.point about black and ethnic minority people, that's polluting
:37:48. > :37:55.the point... It isn't at all, it grows goes to the issue and the crux
:37:56. > :38:00.of trust. Every black and ethnic minority male friend of mine has, or
:38:01. > :38:05.a close black friend of theirs has, the levels of trust in different
:38:06. > :38:09.communities is very different. And what you will see, is an escalation
:38:10. > :38:14.of grievance and potential harm happening. With something like Lee
:38:15. > :38:19.Rigby, it was an atrocious murder, he was dead before police arrived,
:38:20. > :38:22.including non-armed police. The murders hacked him to death and then
:38:23. > :38:28.asked passers-by to phone the police for them. That's the thing with
:38:29. > :38:35.these incidents, them having guns or tasers wouldn't have stop that from
:38:36. > :38:38.happening,... No, they didn't... The passers by to whom they were
:38:39. > :38:44.speaking, we didn't know their situation. They were talking to
:38:45. > :38:49.them, trying to talk those murderers down which actually stopped anyone
:38:50. > :38:52.else being harmed. Hello. The question about the black and
:38:53. > :38:55.minority ethnic people, it never seems to get answered, it happens in
:38:56. > :38:59.England, eventually it will arrive in Scotland but no want seems... The
:39:00. > :39:07.question is there all the time but no one comes up with answers. What
:39:08. > :39:10.is your answer? What... I don't have an answer, I am asking the question.
:39:11. > :39:17.Every statistic that comes out, they are getting stunned with a taser,
:39:18. > :39:20.whatever happens in England will take 5-10 years to eventually
:39:21. > :39:27.arrived in Scotland and we can see it happening here, something and
:39:28. > :39:31.someone needs to stop asking the questions and answers.
:39:32. > :39:34.APPLAUSE We are going to leave it there. An
:39:35. > :39:39.excellent point on which to leave it. Thank you somewhat.
:39:40. > :39:41.You can join in all this morning's debates by logging
:39:42. > :39:44.on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions and following the link
:39:45. > :39:47.Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq.
:39:48. > :39:50.Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too -
:39:51. > :39:55.And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience at a future show you
:39:56. > :39:59.We're in Birmingham next week, Newcastle upon Tyne on March 5th
:40:00. > :40:11.Over ten series of The Big Questions we have returned time and time again
:40:12. > :40:16.The first is whether women should be consecrated as bishops.
:40:17. > :40:19.This has now been resolved as a yes in the Church of England,
:40:20. > :40:23.despite the scriptural reservations of many of its members and clergy.
:40:24. > :40:26.The second is how the Churches of England and Scotland should deal
:40:27. > :40:30.with gays and lesbians who are called to the ministry,
:40:31. > :40:32.especially whether they should be allowed to enter the holy state
:40:33. > :40:36.of matrimony with someone of the same sex.
:40:37. > :40:40.On this, the answer has been a firm no in both churches.
:40:41. > :40:42.They may become civil partners with their beloveds
:40:43. > :40:46.And in the Church of England they may not have
:40:47. > :40:50.And neither shall gay or lesbian members of their congregations
:40:51. > :40:53.be allowed to marry in the sight of God.
:40:54. > :40:57.This week a report to the Church of England General Synod
:40:58. > :41:05.by a committee of bishops on gay marriage recommended continuing
:41:06. > :41:08.don't tell' strategy over the sex life of its vicars and curates
:41:09. > :41:12.Everybody saw this as a shallow compromise that would fool
:41:13. > :41:29.What a story you have, Jamie, you are a gay evangelical stop
:41:30. > :41:33.absolutely. What is it, and oxymoron, a contradiction in terms?
:41:34. > :41:37.What is going on? Many people don't believe that evangelical people
:41:38. > :41:42.believe that the Bible is clear that homosexuality is not a sin. The
:41:43. > :41:47.Bible is clear. The Bible is perfectly clear that God is love and
:41:48. > :41:50.where God is, there is love and when we see two people...
:41:51. > :41:53.APPLAUSE When we see two people who love each
:41:54. > :41:56.other and want to commit to each other and want to have a
:41:57. > :42:00.relationship which is blessed before God, before their friends and
:42:01. > :42:03.family, that is something to be celebrated. I believe we can see the
:42:04. > :42:09.fruit of that, the couples I know who are in these permanent and I
:42:10. > :42:12.hope one day I will be two, relationships, bear such joy and
:42:13. > :42:18.happiness and peace, all the fruits of the Spirit and I believe... What
:42:19. > :42:21.about fidelity? As opposed to the gender but, I think so much in this
:42:22. > :42:27.debate has been about sex, it's been about promiscuity or lost, but it
:42:28. > :42:32.should be about love. But that is what the Bible is extraordinary here
:42:33. > :42:39.on and we need to celebrate that. APPLAUSE
:42:40. > :42:45.David. What a story you have got! You were a gay activist in Sydney,
:42:46. > :42:48.one of the great, vibrant, exciting, yet cities in the world, lucky
:42:49. > :42:54.enough to have been there, amazing place. And you went to a pub in
:42:55. > :42:59.Jesus spoke to you. Before I start, I want to say that God loves... We
:43:00. > :43:04.will get onto that. I want to hear your story. What happened? As a
:43:05. > :43:08.14-year-old I thought I was disqualified from the love of God
:43:09. > :43:11.because I was a homosexual and I am here to see that as a blue didn't
:43:12. > :43:18.like, God loves and accepts every single person but he doesn't a firm
:43:19. > :43:24.everything in us. As well as beloved children made in his image. I was in
:43:25. > :43:27.the pub, I had been a gay rights activist, involved in Mardi Gras,
:43:28. > :43:32.involved in things that university and I met this person in the pub and
:43:33. > :43:37.they asked me, have you experienced the love of God? I thought, I
:43:38. > :43:41.thought it was all a Bible concept thing, there wasn't a real God who
:43:42. > :43:45.loves me. And so this person prayed for me, I have the most incredible
:43:46. > :43:49.experience of gods presence, like the Holy Spirit coming upon me and I
:43:50. > :43:54.never experienced anything like this in my life, it turned my life upside
:43:55. > :43:59.down. You felt the holy spread all over you? Yes, it turned by life
:44:00. > :44:04.upside down, honestly, I was an atheist, I didn't believe in God.
:44:05. > :44:08.Did you hear the voice of God, almost? I heard an internal voice in
:44:09. > :44:13.my mind, my spirit, that said do you want me and I said yes. What
:44:14. > :44:21.happened in France? In France? I had a moment, I felt God asked me, will
:44:22. > :44:25.you give me your homosexuality? And I said, Lord, you died on the cross
:44:26. > :44:31.for me, that's the real love we are talking about, the love of Jesus
:44:32. > :44:34.Christ on the cross, first self sacrificial and then romantic, I
:44:35. > :44:39.said, Lord, you can have anything you want, you can have my money,
:44:40. > :44:48.material things... Sacrifice, like a non-or a priest? Obee Dean is,
:44:49. > :44:52.sacrifice... Are you still gay? Same-sex attracted, I still feel
:44:53. > :44:56.part of the gay community but often people like me, we are a minority
:44:57. > :44:59.within a minority and our rights aren't being represented in the
:45:00. > :45:03.Church and its quite sad for people like me, we face an incredible
:45:04. > :45:07.pressure on us from both sides and I am here to represent thousands and
:45:08. > :45:12.thousands of people I've met that are like me. Wouldn't you rather,
:45:13. > :45:16.like Jane, be able to see in the script, and approval of your love
:45:17. > :45:17.and you wouldn't be conflicted? I can't change scripture but in the
:45:18. > :45:32.Church of England, There is the crux. We read Scripture
:45:33. > :45:37.differently. I had a very similar experience to you and I heard God
:45:38. > :45:40.say how much he loves me and how much I am there to respond but we
:45:41. > :45:44.see Scripture differently and the church needs to be big enough to
:45:45. > :45:49.embrace both of us. I respectfully that you do not believe you want to
:45:50. > :46:01.enter into a committed lifelong sexual relationship but I believe
:46:02. > :46:06.God is calling me to that. We see Scripture differently. The truth is
:46:07. > :46:15.we won't know until we get to heaven, but I say, look at it. With
:46:16. > :46:26.Scripture, a lot of people talk about Leviticus, what are you
:46:27. > :46:30.citing? I believe where God is love, and love is God. I can give you a
:46:31. > :46:35.lot of Scripture but it will not be very exciting. Ultimately, look at
:46:36. > :46:42.the fruit. When I tried to live like David I ended up in hospital
:46:43. > :46:48.fighting for my life. I deeply empathise. I think we have a very
:46:49. > :46:53.similar experience and I think Jesus is in our lives but there are things
:46:54. > :46:56.in our faith we are processing. We are coming to a place of
:46:57. > :47:03.reconciliation and the really damaging thing is legalism, when
:47:04. > :47:08.they don't know the grace and love of God but they only know law. There
:47:09. > :47:13.is this idea of living under a law and trying to scrape up this ladder.
:47:14. > :47:18.That is not the Christian gospel. It is that you believed by faith in
:47:19. > :47:21.Christ, it is a free gift and through that you're transformed to
:47:22. > :47:26.live a life of obedience and love with God and I came to a point where
:47:27. > :47:31.I wanted to give him myself and I am not judging, that is not my place.
:47:32. > :47:36.You cannot have a partner in life and sheer things. I don't need that.
:47:37. > :47:44.I have an amazing community, I live with them and they are wonderful
:47:45. > :47:56.friends of mine. I'm really intrigued by what you say, you've
:47:57. > :48:04.given your sexuality. Does God believe homosexuality is a sin? Yes,
:48:05. > :48:12.God sees the practice of homosexual six as a sin. It grieves him and it
:48:13. > :48:19.angers him because he loves us and he wants us to have something
:48:20. > :48:26.better. Surely he would like us to love each other? We are talking
:48:27. > :48:33.about the issue of six. Jesus came to set us free from our sin. He gave
:48:34. > :48:41.her alive -- gave his life so we could find a new way of life centred
:48:42. > :48:45.in God and I agree, Grace is fundamental to the gospel and what
:48:46. > :48:52.rescues us from sin. Jesus was absolutely clear and the Bible is
:48:53. > :49:02.absolutely clear. The extreme liberals like Jane. Listen to that
:49:03. > :49:09.language, extreme liberals. I apologised to viewers who just had
:49:10. > :49:13.to hear him. God loves us and created us. On Tuesday I had a
:49:14. > :49:17.lunchtime fringe meeting in memory of a young girl who committed
:49:18. > :49:23.suicide because she believed what Jonathan said and she could not
:49:24. > :49:26.accept what she was. These are young Christian youths whose lives are
:49:27. > :49:35.being turned upside down in churches like yours. What is the purpose of
:49:36. > :49:43.six? For children, basically. Jesus made absolutely clear. Not for
:49:44. > :49:51.pleasure? For marriage and marriage is between a man and a woman for
:49:52. > :50:02.life. He said, God made us male and female. God made us male and female
:50:03. > :50:06.so a mother and father should hold fast, become one flesh with the
:50:07. > :50:12.wife. That is where six fits into it. Which is better, a loving
:50:13. > :50:16.relationship between two same-sex people who have commitment and
:50:17. > :50:26.absolutely love each other and find fulfilment through the lives or a
:50:27. > :50:33.loveless marriage? That is a completely false contradiction. Now
:50:34. > :50:40.it is not. I will tell your story. As far as the Bible is concerned,
:50:41. > :50:46.are six references to homosexuality and 3000 references to poverty. If I
:50:47. > :50:52.was using the Bible as my moral order I know what I would spend my
:50:53. > :50:56.time on. I also don't think the idea of God being some guy with a white
:50:57. > :50:59.beard saying something is good and bad is anywhere near anything that
:51:00. > :51:08.could be described as some kind of divinity. You were a minister.
:51:09. > :51:14.Absolutely, but I'm on a journey and it is telling me that the way that
:51:15. > :51:21.we have ordered ourselves is beyond our understanding of individuality,
:51:22. > :51:25.and these things have undermined our ability to do the most fundamental
:51:26. > :51:37.thing, be in love. Yesterday, I was at the funeral of a guide called
:51:38. > :51:40.Gordon Aikman. He had MND, a terrible disease, he's hugely
:51:41. > :51:44.changed our understanding of that and at his funeral his husband stood
:51:45. > :51:47.up and made the most powerful eulogy I've ever heard in my life and I've
:51:48. > :51:52.attended a lot of funerals because I used to be a minister. At that point
:51:53. > :51:56.I understood the idea of love beyond just something that is in our brains
:51:57. > :52:01.and ourselves as individuals. Something outside us, that we can
:52:02. > :52:06.use to motivate ourselves to be the people we want to be. If you tell me
:52:07. > :52:11.that can only happen in one situation, because of a moral order
:52:12. > :52:14.that has been created by a is open to interpretation, I don't
:52:15. > :52:21.particularly want to be part of that. What I want to do is live as I
:52:22. > :52:33.saw Joel and Gordon live, in love and for others. Good morning. We've
:52:34. > :52:40.got this very Victorian idea that we are somehow a brain on a stick. We
:52:41. > :52:50.are bodies as well. We are at this stuff. Does God think homosexuality
:52:51. > :52:55.is a sin? No. Does he think being left-handed is a sin? Being tone
:52:56. > :52:58.deaf is a sin? We exist in this world, we are brains and bodies at
:52:59. > :53:07.the whole part of us engages with our relationship with God. Why did
:53:08. > :53:11.God create gay people? God created people. Why did he create gay
:53:12. > :53:16.people? I don't think it's that simple. I studied theology at
:53:17. > :53:28.Oxford. We are made in the image of God. I think he would himself in the
:53:29. > :53:32.image of Jesus Christ. We must realise human beings are made in his
:53:33. > :53:36.image and we fell. There are certain things that come from the power of
:53:37. > :53:43.sin in our lives and we are born with flesh, it is the nature of sin.
:53:44. > :53:50.I don't see my desire for a partner as sinful but the effect on me of
:53:51. > :53:56.that sinful curse we've inherited is I have a sexual orientation I don't
:53:57. > :54:05.believe is the will of God. It is all to do with sin? It is about
:54:06. > :54:09.worship. My point is God did not just made man and women, he made
:54:10. > :54:15.everything in between. It has scientifically been proven that
:54:16. > :54:19.there are lots of different sexes, a spectrum, God made us all and loves
:54:20. > :54:25.us also that is the physical one. The mental one and the spiritual
:54:26. > :54:31.one, which I don't really understand, is the homosexual side.
:54:32. > :54:41.God just loves us all. It is about two Sauls meeting. That is just the
:54:42. > :54:46.body. Why did God create gay people? He wants to celebrate love. When you
:54:47. > :54:50.say marriage is just for children what about those wonderful couples
:54:51. > :54:59.who cannot have children or who are impotent? The six verses that talk
:55:00. > :55:05.about homosexual acts are about power, about lost between two men
:55:06. > :55:09.who don't desire each other. We need to go back and understand the
:55:10. > :55:21.context, the Greek and Hebrew, but most of all, the narrative and the
:55:22. > :55:26.Gospel. Then we can mirror our desire and the person we want to
:55:27. > :55:33.commit to four life. The Bible is clear that all six outside of
:55:34. > :55:42.marriage. But what does suffer not which to live mean? You're talking
:55:43. > :55:48.about the old covenant. The Bible needs interpretation, certainly.
:55:49. > :55:53.That is what she is doing. The reason that I say Jane is an extreme
:55:54. > :55:59.liberal as this is very new in the life of the church. It has always
:56:00. > :56:10.been clear to the Christian church that six is for marriage. We've had,
:56:11. > :56:11.for the last 50 years, the sexual revolution which has caused enormous
:56:12. > :56:28.damage. There are people who read the Bible,
:56:29. > :56:38.deciding what they want it to say. What does that mean then? Suffer not
:56:39. > :56:42.a witch. Well... There is suffering over this, young people who believe
:56:43. > :56:48.God does not love them or they want to have love, it will drive many of
:56:49. > :56:57.them to self harm. We had a report that said 42% of young people have
:56:58. > :57:03.considered suicide. We need to own up to the horror and the harm we
:57:04. > :57:16.did. We need to look freshly at celebrating who we are. Lady over
:57:17. > :57:21.there. Your hand was up. I struggle with how this has had more of a
:57:22. > :57:27.detrimental impact than the war fought over religion or the poverty.
:57:28. > :57:35.I don't understand why God would be so concerned with what is going on
:57:36. > :57:40.in our bedroom. You do get the impression God is like a tabloid
:57:41. > :57:54.newspaper going on about it all the time. That is not God if you believe
:57:55. > :58:03.in God. It has got a, done. My job now as I work with homeless folk and
:58:04. > :58:10.a significantly large percentage are gay and it is a consequence of the
:58:11. > :58:13.kind of conversations of people saying because of the God I see
:58:14. > :58:24.under way I'd interpret the Bible, you are judged. No matter how much
:58:25. > :58:29.you say I did not mean you, it comes across as, you are bad. They end up
:58:30. > :58:33.not being able to have the conversations they need. Thank you
:58:34. > :58:44.very much, we are going to leave it there. We've run out of time. Next
:58:45. > :58:58.week we are in Burnley. Have a great Sunday, thanks for watching.
:58:59. > :59:01.Donald Trump's first 100 days in the White House
:59:02. > :59:05.are defining how he'll deal with the rest of the world.