:00:07. > :00:08.Today on The Big Questions: Misrepresenting Islam,
:00:09. > :00:24.reincarnation, and marriage - is it what you make it?
:00:25. > :00:30.Today we're live from Heartlands Academy in Birmingham.
:00:31. > :00:37.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
:00:38. > :00:42.The activities of Islamist extremism across the globe have killed many
:00:43. > :00:47.more Muslims than people from other faiths, as we saw yet again
:00:48. > :00:52.earlier this month, when 80 worshippers were killed and 250
:00:53. > :00:55.injured by an Islamist suicide bomber at the Sufi Muslim shrine,
:00:56. > :01:01.Last week Pope Francis declared that Muslim
:01:02. > :01:06.Just as no-one puts the blame on Christianity when Christians
:01:07. > :01:08.engage in violent or criminal activities, so neither
:01:09. > :01:10.should Islam be blamed for the crimes of Islamists.
:01:11. > :01:24.Good morning, everyone. Sammy Yacoub, who is guilty of
:01:25. > :01:29.misrepresenting Islam? -- Salma Yaqoob. Who does it? I think right
:01:30. > :01:34.now it is a bit of an industry. Research done by a Californian
:01:35. > :01:39.university found that millions of dollars a year are paid out to
:01:40. > :01:44.people paying them to run these kind of stories. What kind of stories?
:01:45. > :01:49.Saying negative things about Muslims. The issue you referred to
:01:50. > :01:52.was a reality. The people that carry out these atrocities, it is their
:01:53. > :01:57.responsibility and of course it is right to talk about it. Can I stop
:01:58. > :02:02.you there? You are immediately blaming the west. But you asked me a
:02:03. > :02:10.question. Shouldn't you say that the people who misrepresent Islam are
:02:11. > :02:14.the people that join Isis? The people who slaughtered the
:02:15. > :02:18.cartoonists... You are actually interrupting me halfway through that
:02:19. > :02:22.very sentence. I was talking about that very issue. The people that
:02:23. > :02:27.carry out these atrocities they first, primarily and mainly
:02:28. > :02:34.responsible. For me as a that is very important. Here in Birmingham
:02:35. > :02:38.we have organised protests in Muslim communities, saying not in our name,
:02:39. > :02:44.and we reject these people who carry out this kind of violence. But the
:02:45. > :02:49.Pope has a point. When violent activities occur, we shouldn't blame
:02:50. > :02:52.a whole religion. That was an atrocity in Pakistan and my family's
:02:53. > :02:56.roots are in Pakistan and of course I feel strongly about what is
:02:57. > :03:01.happening there, but you haven't mentioned that this very weak
:03:02. > :03:06.hundreds of Muslims in Burma have been killed by Buddhists. I wouldn't
:03:07. > :03:10.say this about Buddhism, of course I wouldn't. There are people around
:03:11. > :03:13.the globe, in a Iraqi and Afghanistan, where millions of
:03:14. > :03:18.Moslems were killed, but they still would not blame Christianity. The
:03:19. > :03:21.soldiers themselves may have claimed that faith, many of them. It is
:03:22. > :03:25.wrong to blame a whole religion. Does it mean that all religions are
:03:26. > :03:32.progressive? No. It doesn't mean they are all reactionary? No. It is
:03:33. > :03:35.a spectrum. You will see extremist and all backgrounds, atheists and
:03:36. > :03:42.religious, and it is important to say that. Sadia Hameed, is it
:03:43. > :03:49.important people say they are doing it in the name of a faith? Yes. I do
:03:50. > :03:55.think we need to start talking about some of harmful elements of Islam.
:03:56. > :04:03.In the Koran it does advocate violence and rape even. And we are
:04:04. > :04:09.not addressing that. We are doing Muslim is a disservice, really. We
:04:10. > :04:12.do misrepresent Muslims, but Islam is not misrepresented. There are
:04:13. > :04:18.very violent and harmful passages within the Koran. Talking about
:04:19. > :04:26.slavery? Yes, and social and sexual and domestic violence. But the study
:04:27. > :04:34.has shown there is a two to one ratio of Ireland versus peaceful...
:04:35. > :04:37.Did Muhammad have sex slaves? Yes, and his followers, and it is still
:04:38. > :04:40.advocated today. I think last week of the week before Doctor Jonathan
:04:41. > :04:47.Brown was talking about slavery within Islam and he was talking
:04:48. > :04:53.about how they feed their slaves and they sheltered them. There is sex
:04:54. > :05:03.trafficking in the modern day. We don't excuse it. I think for Sadia
:05:04. > :05:08.Hameed to quote the Koran without knowing it at all is unfair. I
:05:09. > :05:11.didn't interrupt you. There are verses that talk about war and
:05:12. > :05:16.peace. It also that marriage and relationship. In the life of the
:05:17. > :05:21.Prophet, it is not true that he had sex slaves. He had been married to
:05:22. > :05:25.many women. Most of his wives were divorcees, and elderly people, and
:05:26. > :05:30.at that time, in those days, people were not given protection in that
:05:31. > :05:40.way in the patriarchal society they lived in. The grant is very explicit
:05:41. > :05:44.about relationships. -- the Koran. When we confuse the verses of
:05:45. > :05:47.warfare, which of course appear in the Koran, against our notion of
:05:48. > :05:54.peas and justice of violence, of course it creates confusion. It
:05:55. > :05:59.requires interpretation, doesn't it? But who says your interpretation is
:06:00. > :06:04.right and somebody else's is wrong? I am not saying mine is right. I am
:06:05. > :06:07.saying it is very simple. In the Arabic language there is a common
:06:08. > :06:12.dictionary you can pick up and understand and it is about common
:06:13. > :06:17.sense. It is a language that is very rich with a long history. There is a
:06:18. > :06:21.science of interpretation so you cannot interpret willy-nilly the
:06:22. > :06:27.sayings of the Prophet. Refer to the part, contextualise it in the time
:06:28. > :06:33.you live, and back it up with science most importantly. If your
:06:34. > :06:40.God wants peace in the world and he gives you a book, I would expect it
:06:41. > :06:47.to say very explicitly be peaceful. It does. It shouldn't take any
:06:48. > :06:51.interpretation to pick those bits out. The points you raise is very
:06:52. > :06:55.important, Nicky. Do we misrepresent? And we do by giving
:06:56. > :06:58.the wrong understanding. The word Islam means peace, and the entire
:06:59. > :07:03.lifestyle is one who submits to peace. I think we have got to make a
:07:04. > :07:07.very important distinction between Islamist extremism and Muslim people
:07:08. > :07:13.in general. The two are very different. We need to focus on the
:07:14. > :07:18.extremists, who as you rightly said her primarily targeted fellow
:07:19. > :07:23.Muslims, who don't conform to their particular interpretation of Islam.
:07:24. > :07:28.With regard to whether atrocities and outrages should be labelled as
:07:29. > :07:32.Islamic or not, when it came to the Crusades, it would be absurd to say
:07:33. > :07:35.they had nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity was the
:07:36. > :07:44.motivation of those crusades and those atrocities against the Muslim
:07:45. > :07:48.world, and likewise a very small minority of Muslims are misusing and
:07:49. > :07:54.abusing, or in some places they would be following interpretation of
:07:55. > :07:59.the Koran, and doing things in the name of Islam, and we should not
:08:00. > :08:03.deny the connection. Let's not deny the cultural here. Islam is not just
:08:04. > :08:09.one thing. It is hundreds of thousands of different types and too
:08:10. > :08:18.often it is put in one box and that this incredibly similar stick. An
:08:19. > :08:22.ICM poll shocked people. The theories about 9/11, that Jewish
:08:23. > :08:27.people did it, and some people think it is a creditable poll, but 50% of
:08:28. > :08:32.Muslims thought that homosexuality should be illegal. Illegal? But I
:08:33. > :08:40.would contend that is not necessarily to do with Islam but to
:08:41. > :08:45.do with cultures within Islam. Cultures that practice Islam from
:08:46. > :08:50.less socially progressive societies, no? They don't tolerate
:08:51. > :08:53.homosexuality within Islam. A lot of religions don't tolerate
:08:54. > :08:57.homosexuality. Right from a very young age, being told it is not
:08:58. > :09:00.acceptable within Islam, they are going to grow up into adults
:09:01. > :09:09.thinking it is not an acceptable lifestyle. Now we do have, as the
:09:10. > :09:15.Council of ex-Muslims, we do have people who come to us who are
:09:16. > :09:18.homosexual, who have had to leave the faith, because the entire
:09:19. > :09:27.community, their entire families have turned their backs on them.
:09:28. > :09:33.What about people who abandon their faith? If Islam was so peaceful, we
:09:34. > :09:36.wouldn't have people coming to us telling us their lives were at risk
:09:37. > :09:41.and we wouldn't have honour killings and forced marriages and those
:09:42. > :09:46.things still happen. Let's hear from Salma Yaqoob on that. Is there a
:09:47. > :09:51.problem in Islam within apostasy? I think there is a problem in all
:09:52. > :09:54.religions and belief systems when it comes to orthodoxy, who claims the
:09:55. > :09:59.mainstream and who claims the fringes. We have talked about
:10:00. > :10:03.homosexuality. But can we not leave other religions with less bother and
:10:04. > :10:07.threat? No, because an exception is being made, and it is important to
:10:08. > :10:11.contextualise. Your whole life you have been campaigning for gay rights
:10:12. > :10:15.and you are not given in an Islamic country campaigning for gay rights,
:10:16. > :10:19.and we see Donald Trump using right conservatism is backed by the
:10:20. > :10:22.right-wing Christian churches in America, attacking the progressive
:10:23. > :10:26.rights of gay and lesbian people. This is not a uniquely Muslim
:10:27. > :10:32.cultural issue and that is what I take exception to. Peter? On this
:10:33. > :10:36.point, most Muslims get it fundamentally wrong. The Koran has
:10:37. > :10:42.no explicit condemnation of demisexuality and it prescribes no
:10:43. > :10:46.punishments. That is based on an interpretation that leads many
:10:47. > :10:52.Muslims to condemn homosexuality. If you believe in the Koran, the Koran
:10:53. > :10:56.itself says this is the word of Allah and it requires no
:10:57. > :11:00.interpretation and no perdition. It is not in the Koran that
:11:01. > :11:05.homosexuality is explicitly wrong and it prescribes no punishments,
:11:06. > :11:13.and so Muslim south no authority to condemn LGBT people. Sacred texts
:11:14. > :11:23.are being interpreted by different people through their own cultural
:11:24. > :11:29.prison. Or prism. Some thoughts from the audience. Apostasy, what are
:11:30. > :11:34.your thoughts on that? There are many examples historically during
:11:35. > :11:37.the time of the Prophet where people did decide to leave the faith and
:11:38. > :11:43.said it wasn't part of them and they lived in absolute harmony with the
:11:44. > :11:47.Muslim is at that time. What I think is happening... Can I ask you a
:11:48. > :11:53.question? You obviously have great knowledge and faith. You can
:11:54. > :11:59.understand somebody in the so-called Islamic State being fed the line
:12:00. > :12:04.from the Koran on apostates if they turn back, take hold of them and
:12:05. > :12:09.kill them wherever you find them. They might say that means what it
:12:10. > :12:14.says. That has been taken out of its historical essence and context. That
:12:15. > :12:19.is the problem, isn't it? What Islamic State are doing is taking
:12:20. > :12:23.Koranic interpretation in a literal and puritanical sense. Arabic has
:12:24. > :12:28.many layers. When you interpret Arabic. I work in counter extremism
:12:29. > :12:32.in Birmingham and I run an organisation where we tackle
:12:33. > :12:37.radicalisation and we provide the evidence to show where
:12:38. > :12:44.contextualisation of the Koran can cause more damage. What we are not
:12:45. > :12:48.seeing today is the fact that cultural infiltration within the
:12:49. > :12:52.faith has caused a huge amount of problems when it comes to
:12:53. > :12:57.interpretation and the actual expressions of faith as we are
:12:58. > :13:00.seeing it today. That needs to be removed. People need to go down and
:13:01. > :13:05.understand what is representative of the faith and what is not. Thank
:13:06. > :13:16.you. A couple more points. David and then at the back. Ajmal, always
:13:17. > :13:21.wanting to take part, but we have two more good ones coming up. About
:13:22. > :13:25.cultural issues, when you look at Islam, every part of the world you
:13:26. > :13:32.look at, you have Muslims in all part of the world, including white
:13:33. > :13:37.English. It is about the culture. Islam is opposed to supersede
:13:38. > :13:43.culture. If you go to Africa, Gambia, Senegal, you see Muslims
:13:44. > :13:50.openly practising witchcraft and voodoo which violate Islam and then
:13:51. > :13:54.you go to Pakistan and you see people who practice on a killing and
:13:55. > :13:58.stuff. But that is not Islamic. We Muslims here are struggling to fight
:13:59. > :14:02.and explain to our co-workers and friends that these are not Islamic.
:14:03. > :14:07.They are cultural issues. Every point that has been made here, Islam
:14:08. > :14:15.is not the problem. It is Muslims misrepresenting Islam.
:14:16. > :14:24.I have got a list of people who want to talk. That point leads us quite
:14:25. > :14:30.nicely onto this because we are talking about specific cultural
:14:31. > :14:34.influences and how that influences how people practice a religion and
:14:35. > :14:42.it muddies the water. Look at countries like Iran and Turkey, they
:14:43. > :14:46.used to be secular, not in the irreligious sense, but secular
:14:47. > :14:52.countries where women used to go about, they did not have to cover
:14:53. > :14:55.their faces, many people find it obscene and dehumanising, they were
:14:56. > :15:02.very different societies from how they are now. Turkey, led by a man
:15:03. > :15:05.who is a creationist, he thinks all creatures were created just as they
:15:06. > :15:12.appear now on the earth, clamping down on human rights. What went
:15:13. > :15:19.wrong? To be honest, I am personally tired of this dichotomy of culture
:15:20. > :15:24.versus authentic interpretation. We have been talking about this for the
:15:25. > :15:28.last ten minutes. Almost every single contribute talked about the
:15:29. > :15:34.importance and significance of culture and the ways in which our
:15:35. > :15:37.cultural particularities determine our interpretive strategies but not
:15:38. > :15:41.its single person talked about the importance of the political
:15:42. > :15:48.structure. I do not think the Muslim world right now requires a
:15:49. > :15:52.theological revolution. The Muslim world requires political reform.
:15:53. > :15:58.Some of the ideas you are talking about, we may waste many weeks
:15:59. > :16:03.talking about narrative, this is the correct interpretation, that is an
:16:04. > :16:08.incorrect interpretation, but it is irrelevant. The question we need to
:16:09. > :16:12.ask is why in 2017 some of the ideas that the vast majority of Muslims
:16:13. > :16:18.regard as problematic, why they managed to find political agency?
:16:19. > :16:24.Why do they manage to be effective? What paved the way for them to
:16:25. > :16:28.become transformative politically? It is not about competing
:16:29. > :16:33.perspectives. It is not about competing interpretations. It is
:16:34. > :16:37.about the prevailing political structure which unfortunately
:16:38. > :16:41.unleashed these ideas. I compare it with anti-Semitism in Europe. It
:16:42. > :16:46.unfortunately has been part and parcel of European history for a
:16:47. > :16:49.very long time. But you have seen different manifestations of
:16:50. > :16:53.anti-Semitism in different historical phases. Europe did not
:16:54. > :16:57.all of a sudden become more anti-Semitic in the 30s when we saw
:16:58. > :17:05.the atrocities of the horror Holocaust. -- the Holocaust will
:17:06. > :17:07.stop it was a political problem. Political institutionalisation of
:17:08. > :17:10.it. It set the stage for the atrocities. That is what is
:17:11. > :17:16.happening right now. Political distortions. This is completely
:17:17. > :17:21.ignored and we waste our time about it being a wrong interpretation and
:17:22. > :17:24.correct, and we are not paying attention actually to the cause of
:17:25. > :17:32.the problem and we are obsessively only looking at the symptoms.
:17:33. > :17:40.APPLAUSE Excellent point. Christopher, your
:17:41. > :17:46.book sounds fascinating. You have not paid me to say that. The author
:17:47. > :17:52.of The Islamic Enlightenment. When we look back, we see great
:17:53. > :17:59.scientists, we saw great scientists in Islam 1000 years ago who predated
:18:00. > :18:05.Darwin's fairy of evolution. It was called by Charles Draper at the
:18:06. > :18:11.time, the Mohammed theory. -- theory of evolution. Fantastic geometric
:18:12. > :18:15.art and actual art representation of people and of animals which is
:18:16. > :18:21.frowned on now. The great mathematicians. Is this question
:18:22. > :18:26.legitimate? What went wrong? It is a question that comes up again and
:18:27. > :18:34.again, it is a legitimate question and I agree that we have to look at
:18:35. > :18:40.the political and historical reasons behind it and we should not obsess
:18:41. > :18:43.over what the Koran says. For the individual believer, that is
:18:44. > :18:46.important, but in the grander scheme of things, history is what counts
:18:47. > :18:51.will stop history tells us that not only 1000 years ago in Baghdad and
:18:52. > :18:56.Persia and across the Middle East, there was a great efflorescence,
:18:57. > :19:02.upsurge, of knowledge, and the contribution made by Islamic
:19:03. > :19:04.cultures to human knowledge, not Islamic knowledge, it is beyond
:19:05. > :19:10.question. The other thing that the great black hole is in our
:19:11. > :19:13.historical understanding comes in the 19th century and early 20th
:19:14. > :19:18.which is when modern ideas entered the Middle East and wired to an
:19:19. > :19:24.extraordinary extent absorbed and taken on board -- were too. We have
:19:25. > :19:28.discussed slavery this morning, it disappeared within a matter of
:19:29. > :19:32.decades in the Middle East. The venerable old Islamic institution
:19:33. > :19:39.effectively disappeared. The segregation of men and women ...
:19:40. > :19:47.1964, slavery disappeared in Saudi Arabia. That is an aberration and
:19:48. > :19:51.Saudi Arabia did not exist in the time I am talking about. The
:19:52. > :19:55.advances in the 19th century in the Middle East were immense. There were
:19:56. > :20:00.two revolutions, both of which, no one knows about them in the West, a
:20:01. > :20:03.revolution in Turkey and in Iran, they brought in parliamentary
:20:04. > :20:10.systems of government, before the First World War, the first Turkish
:20:11. > :20:19.constitution, 1876. What went wrong? To my mind, a lot of what went wrong
:20:20. > :20:23.is in instead -- is external stimulus. The Brits invaded Egypt, a
:20:24. > :20:29.very nasty revolution going on which would have meant the British control
:20:30. > :20:33.and British influence over Egypt would have been greatly reduced. In
:20:34. > :20:37.1914, it came to a head with the First World War which obliterated
:20:38. > :20:40.the region physically. We do not talk about the number of dead in the
:20:41. > :20:45.Middle East in the First World War, but it was absolutely extraordinary.
:20:46. > :20:49.It left behind famine and the complete obliteration of borders.
:20:50. > :20:54.After that, Britain and France carved up part of the region and the
:20:55. > :20:57.other part of the region, in order to avoid being swallowed up Colonial
:20:58. > :21:03.league, it found these very strong secularising regime is... --
:21:04. > :21:07.Colonial leaf. Can I borrow this down as a jumping point? There has
:21:08. > :21:13.been based of the cetacean and because of the external geopolitical
:21:14. > :21:16.influences, the Islamic world has stopped generating and is merely
:21:17. > :21:22.reacting? Would that be fair? I think the default mould of catch-up
:21:23. > :21:28.and how we react to things entry from the West has taken over. --
:21:29. > :21:33.mode. There was a strong sense that what comes in from the West does not
:21:34. > :21:39.necessarily mean it is Western or anti-testicle to Islamic culture, it
:21:40. > :21:51.is perfectly possible it is the human heritage of humankind --
:21:52. > :21:55.antithetical. It was much easier to advocate Darwinism at the turn of
:21:56. > :22:00.the 20th century in Cairo than it is today. Something has seriously gone
:22:01. > :22:03.wrong. I agree. But I think we need to look to our 20th century for the
:22:04. > :22:09.reasons and they are mostly political. How interesting.
:22:10. > :22:16.APPLAUSE Which country, Salma, you nodding
:22:17. > :22:21.through that, which country do you believe, Muslim majority country,
:22:22. > :22:30.which shows Islam at its best in the world? That is a really difficult
:22:31. > :22:34.one. I do not think that there is an Islamic State and nor do I think
:22:35. > :22:38.there should be an Islamic State. There are countries where people
:22:39. > :22:42.happen to be majority Muslim. If you were to ask me the same question,
:22:43. > :22:47.for example, which is the best Christian country? There might be
:22:48. > :22:51.majority Christian countries, but I would not necessarily think like
:22:52. > :22:54.that. You can say which country is the best secular country, you can
:22:55. > :23:00.easily say that. The most religiously tolerant. That places
:23:01. > :23:07.like Indonesia which are the most populous Muslim countries but most
:23:08. > :23:11.people would think of Saudi Arabia. The politics, it is countries like
:23:12. > :23:19.Saudi Arabia who are propped up by our country and by the US and they
:23:20. > :23:23.actually do export violent extremist interpretations of religion. That
:23:24. > :23:29.has been used as a political way to control their own population as well
:23:30. > :23:34.as legitimising their existence. There is a dangerous mix of politics
:23:35. > :23:42.and theology in countries like Saudi Arabia which I totally accept and I
:23:43. > :23:47.am totally opposed to. Which... In Bosnia, majority Muslim country, in
:23:48. > :23:52.Europe, people lived side-by-side with their Christian neighbours.
:23:53. > :23:58.This has been going on for five centuries, 500 years, native
:23:59. > :24:06.people... Slobodan Milosevic. He carried out a Christian crusade but
:24:07. > :24:09.even now we should say, we should not blame Christianity. There was a
:24:10. > :24:14.genocide of Muslims in the heart of Europe. These are important
:24:15. > :24:22.political issues. Palestine and Israel, land or resource, people use
:24:23. > :24:25.the excuse of identity politics in the guise of religion to carry out
:24:26. > :24:29.those atrocities. A last question and a quick thought and answer,
:24:30. > :24:32.which is the best country in the world today to be a Muslim? I would
:24:33. > :24:42.say the UK. There we are. APPLAUSE
:24:43. > :24:43.England or Scotland or Wales. If you have something to say about that
:24:44. > :24:47.debate, log ... to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,
:24:48. > :24:50.and follow the link to where you can join in the discussion online
:24:51. > :24:52.or contribute on Twitter. We're also debating live this
:24:53. > :24:54.morning from Heartlands Academy in Birmingham -
:24:55. > :24:56.have we all been here before? So get tweeting or emailing on those
:24:57. > :25:01.topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may
:25:02. > :25:04.have about the show. Friday was the Great Night of Shiva,
:25:05. > :25:13.or Maha Shivaratri, commemorating when the Hindu god Shiva
:25:14. > :25:15.is believed to have saved It's a festival dedicated
:25:16. > :25:18.to overcoming darkness and ignorance But it's also a moment when Hindus
:25:19. > :25:25.believe their worship of Lord Shiva might help them attain moksha,
:25:26. > :25:29.their release from reincarnation, the eternal cycle
:25:30. > :25:42.of death and rebirth. Not to this school, we haven't!
:25:43. > :25:50.Seriously, Suraj, George Harrison would have been 74 this week and he
:25:51. > :25:56.was a devout follower of Krishna and in one of his songs, keep me free
:25:57. > :25:59.from birth, is that the ultimate aim, to stop the cycle of
:26:00. > :26:06.reincarnation? I think it is important to look at it from the
:26:07. > :26:11.Hindu angle because people's interpretation of Hinduism or their
:26:12. > :26:14.recognition of it is that it is reincarnation and we have hundreds
:26:15. > :26:21.of gods and thousands of gods, it is a very mature religion in the sense
:26:22. > :26:28.that we have monotheism, people of non-religion, people who do... It is
:26:29. > :26:36.a broad church. That is entirely the wrong term! What is universal is
:26:37. > :26:40.they believe in the end of the knowledge and they all have their
:26:41. > :26:43.interpretation, reincarnation is central and the theme is that we are
:26:44. > :26:49.spiritual beings on a material existence and in that sense, it
:26:50. > :26:55.chimes across all of the major religions. Have you been here
:26:56. > :27:01.before? We have. The purpose is to end the cycle of birth and death by
:27:02. > :27:04.getting moksha. We have been here before from the Hindu angle, we have
:27:05. > :27:08.been around and around through different beings. Do you have any
:27:09. > :27:13.sense of the beings? I read that maybe you fell out with Krishna.
:27:14. > :27:22.Tell me about that, that sense you have of why you are here.
:27:23. > :27:30.Personally, I followed the Harry Krishna movement. I am on earth, I
:27:31. > :27:36.am not with Krishna, where I should be, which is a translation... Why
:27:37. > :27:41.are you not with him? Because I wanted my own independence and free
:27:42. > :27:47.will and I was granted that by God out of his kindness and I have come
:27:48. > :27:56.here now to come out of the cycle of rebirth and re-death. The importance
:27:57. > :28:01.is on the human body. Reincarnation again, people have interpretation it
:28:02. > :28:08.is just human reincarnations. Spiritual being is eternal. The
:28:09. > :28:13.dinosaurs were here for 170 million years on our planet. When there were
:28:14. > :28:20.no people here, why dinosaurs being reincarnated as dinosaurs? What was
:28:21. > :28:27.going on then? It is a very complex issue and essentially that is the
:28:28. > :28:33.theory of evolution... Believe you me, the dinosaurs were here and
:28:34. > :28:38.there were no people. Before there were people, what happened? We can
:28:39. > :28:48.only go back 5000 years because Hinduism has been around 5000 years.
:28:49. > :28:52.They do have everything written, it means the end of knowledge and we
:28:53. > :28:58.have all of the information. We have added to the knowledge. We have. We
:28:59. > :29:02.have information on pregnancy and things like that. You have looked
:29:03. > :29:09.into this, what do you think of it? I wanted to say two things. There is
:29:10. > :29:14.no reference to reincarnation. People, when they die, there are
:29:15. > :29:20.various interpretations of where they go in these beautiful poems, in
:29:21. > :29:25.some of them, your eyes go to the sun, your breath goes to the wind
:29:26. > :29:32.and you disperse. Basically, when you die, you followed the first man
:29:33. > :29:37.to die who then went to this heaven where it was very pleasant and there
:29:38. > :29:46.were lovely trees and music and water running. The greatest God,
:29:47. > :29:52.they ruled the heavens. Subsequently, the death poems about
:29:53. > :30:01.what happens at death, how you cremate or there is a very beautiful
:30:02. > :30:07.burial hymn. There is no reference to health. There is a deep dark hole
:30:08. > :30:13.where you get sent. Is this a cultural... We have to move on. Is
:30:14. > :30:19.it a cultural belief? It grew historically, this idea. People
:30:20. > :30:24.thought, if we are going to live on the Earth, we will die again,
:30:25. > :30:30.re-death. We had a whole lot of changes occurring in the tradition
:30:31. > :30:38.and the development of very strong mystical traditions.
:30:39. > :30:49.David, you are past life regression therapist. You were an Irish boy who
:30:50. > :30:54.drowned on a boat on the way to Atlantic. That was one of my lives.
:30:55. > :30:58.And you were a smuggler in Devon. How did this come out? I went into a
:30:59. > :31:05.regression and I explored what happened will stop the smuggler was
:31:06. > :31:16.one where people feared me. I was part of a gang in the West Country
:31:17. > :31:24.in England. People feared me. You have still got the beard! It is
:31:25. > :31:30.interesting. Maybe you are here as a reaction to that, as part of your
:31:31. > :31:34.learning process. What made you realise that they feared you or made
:31:35. > :31:39.you think that? During the regression I was aware of myself
:31:40. > :31:44.sneering at people around me a lot. I was aware of how they behaved.
:31:45. > :31:51.Eventually I was captured by soldiers and I was eventually
:31:52. > :31:58.killed. In another life, I was a general in a Persian army, where I
:31:59. > :32:04.was one of those going over the top first personalities. I inspired
:32:05. > :32:08.people and empowered people. When was this? Probably over 1000 years
:32:09. > :32:11.ago. I didn't follow the dates. I don't particularly because my motive
:32:12. > :32:20.is for therapy. You know roughly when. Excuse me. A general in the
:32:21. > :32:24.Persian army. We offer here I was Cleopatra, I was an Egyptian slave
:32:25. > :32:31.girl, the French revolution is popular. But you were a boy on a
:32:32. > :32:36.boat drowning. A normal, common person. Most regressions are normal,
:32:37. > :32:42.common things, where there is a particular issue they are working
:32:43. > :32:48.on. Alison, come in on this from the humanist society. Your thoughts?
:32:49. > :32:56.This is a very real experience. For David it is a very real experience
:32:57. > :33:07.and Pussy Riot Sam as well. -- and for surround some aren't... Those
:33:08. > :33:10.images are incredibly real for these people. If you can picture your
:33:11. > :33:18.front door, you can beat it imperfect reality. It isn't there in
:33:19. > :33:25.front of you. -- you can picture it in perfect reality. The human brain
:33:26. > :33:28.is very powerful. I can see why these people think these experiences
:33:29. > :33:34.are very real but I would argue that they are not. There is no evidence.
:33:35. > :33:39.There is evidence? Yes. I want to hear from the audience in a minute.
:33:40. > :33:45.University of the junior has done field cases for 50 years. This is
:33:46. > :33:49.peer reviewed scientific evidence? Going round the world talking to
:33:50. > :33:54.children who have spontaneous recall of what appears to be past life, and
:33:55. > :34:00.they verify the details. Children talk about their other mummies, the
:34:01. > :34:09.house they lived in, whatever, they goes and they check it. This is
:34:10. > :34:12.revolutionary stuff. With science and mounting evidence, there would
:34:13. > :34:17.be a possibility of a Nobel Prize because it would change all of our
:34:18. > :34:21.thinking. The gentleman there. Let's get some more thoughts on this about
:34:22. > :34:37.whether we have been here before. Good morning. Let's take an example,
:34:38. > :34:41.as humans, we can bite everyone. A snake can only bike two people but
:34:42. > :34:49.humans can bike in such a way that we destroy the whole body. -- bite.
:34:50. > :34:59.We have the intensity of lots and lots of animals inside us. As
:35:00. > :35:12.humans, we tend to bark as dogs. That person is bad, all that stuff.
:35:13. > :35:17.And how shall I say? Without meditating in. 'S name, we are like
:35:18. > :35:24.the snake, biting other people. This life is an amalgamation of loads and
:35:25. > :35:28.loads of lives. I have got you. The accumulation of knowledge. The lady
:35:29. > :35:34.in the blue shirt? Do you think we have been here before? No, I don't
:35:35. > :35:37.think so. There is a reason why we associate reincarnation with
:35:38. > :35:42.religion. With religion, we need to believe in something. And I think
:35:43. > :35:45.believing that we can come back and we have been here before gives us a
:35:46. > :35:51.purpose, a justification for some actions. It might be memories, it
:35:52. > :35:54.might be dreams, something we are thinking about, but we haven't been
:35:55. > :36:04.here before. Almost wishful thinking. Justifying our actions,
:36:05. > :36:13.justifying our memories, but I don't think it is anything greater. Bishop
:36:14. > :36:17.David, good morning. The thing is sometimes people speak in different
:36:18. > :36:23.accents and different voices and even different languages. What is
:36:24. > :36:27.going on? The Christian viewpoint generally speaking, and the Islamic
:36:28. > :36:31.and the Jewish one, is that we are here in this life, we sort out our
:36:32. > :36:38.future in this life, our spirit leads to a future life, not a
:36:39. > :36:41.comeback. From my experience of people doing this, there is a
:36:42. > :36:47.psychological effect but we would say there is a spiritual deception.
:36:48. > :36:53.That is a demonic lie, where spirits are speaking to their spirits. That
:36:54. > :36:58.is where you get spiritualism from. Even though they speak in these
:36:59. > :37:04.languages, it doesn't mean it is genuine. It is the devil's work. If
:37:05. > :37:07.you want to see it like that. But there is evidence. How can you
:37:08. > :37:11.explain that a child who barely talks is talking about their other
:37:12. > :37:16.mummy and you can check it out? It is called the imagination. But when
:37:17. > :37:22.there are facts that check it out it is more than imagination. I am very
:37:23. > :37:27.open minded. I accept that there are aspects of life that we don't yet
:37:28. > :37:32.have scientific understanding. But I don't believe in reincarnation or
:37:33. > :37:37.past life regression and I don't believe there is any scientific
:37:38. > :37:41.evidence bases. There is no credible, corroborated scientific
:37:42. > :37:47.evidence to say that reincarnation or past life regression exists. Is
:37:48. > :37:50.there any evidence at all? There is very interesting work done with
:37:51. > :37:54.children, especially people like Stevenson who did a lot of work with
:37:55. > :37:57.children in India particularly, who remembered other families, and they
:37:58. > :38:02.have actually met each other. There is a certain amount of evidence of
:38:03. > :38:09.that sort. The other thing we haven't touched on in this
:38:10. > :38:15.discussion is the ethical thing. This has been described as the
:38:16. > :38:19.world's most logical way of looking at the problem of suffering.
:38:20. > :38:25.Absolutely logical. If you behave in a certain way, then you are going to
:38:26. > :38:29.have to pay back. There is an automatic cause and effect system,
:38:30. > :38:37.just as if you put your hand in a hot stove, you will get burned. I
:38:38. > :38:42.think it is a very logical thing. One woman told me that the reason
:38:43. > :38:46.she had had polio and was lame was because she had done something wrong
:38:47. > :38:50.in a previous life and a mystical person told exactly what it was.
:38:51. > :38:58.That got Glenn Hoddle the sacked as England manager when he tried to
:38:59. > :39:01.articulate that. That was seen as terribly shocking at the time,
:39:02. > :39:08.blaming things on a previous life. Do we get another chance in hell?
:39:09. > :39:13.You have worked in therapy, haven't you? I am a psychotherapist. For me,
:39:14. > :39:16.what is interesting is a belief system that helps you to be more
:39:17. > :39:21.conscientious and conscious of what you do and don't do in this life...
:39:22. > :39:24.If you feel there will be a consequence, and it is not just
:39:25. > :39:28.about the number of years that you are here. Yes, as a Muslim, I
:39:29. > :39:33.believe in an afterlife and I am not going to look to science to justify
:39:34. > :39:37.that. There are some things that are not measurable and they are unseen.
:39:38. > :39:43.Things described in the Bible, the Koran, other religious scripture is,
:39:44. > :39:47.there is a leap of faith involved. And we have a choice in that. We
:39:48. > :39:52.have a choice to believe and not to believe. The test is whether it
:39:53. > :39:55.makes you a better human being, not whether you believe in God or not.
:39:56. > :39:59.If you believe we are here not just to serve ourselves but for the
:40:00. > :40:08.people. It makes society better. Yes. And if you believe in that, all
:40:09. > :40:14.power to you, good. And if you have a desire to be in heaven or a desire
:40:15. > :40:17.to be reborn in a better state, my only issue with the idea of
:40:18. > :40:24.reincarnation is the victim blaming element. If you are poor, disabled,
:40:25. > :40:30.suffering... Because you don't have a memory of what you did, so how can
:40:31. > :40:36.you learn? I agree with you in terms of bringing about a better society.
:40:37. > :40:39.But when you look at it in terms of reincarnation, it is not the end
:40:40. > :40:44.goal. We need to look at the purpose of reincarnation. It is to break out
:40:45. > :40:48.of the cycle of life and death. We don't want another life. We want to
:40:49. > :40:50.go back to God and achieve self-realisation. It is about being
:40:51. > :40:57.better people and being compassionate to other people. If we
:40:58. > :41:01.are not creating more compassionate society is then we failing. I really
:41:02. > :41:07.respect that. Where it is constructive, fantastic.
:41:08. > :41:10.Unfortunately ideas like this can be used to justify institutionalised
:41:11. > :41:14.hierarchies. Every religion can. Yes, that is why it is important to
:41:15. > :41:25.unpack that and contextualise it. The caste system, it is not
:41:26. > :41:29.referenced in any Hindu, any Hindu scripture, it is like comparing the
:41:30. > :41:34.idea of a gently to crusades and Islam and terrorism. The caste
:41:35. > :41:39.system has no justification in any of our texts. Thank you very much.
:41:40. > :41:42.You can join in all this morning's debates by logging
:41:43. > :41:43.on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and following the link
:41:44. > :41:47.Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq.
:41:48. > :41:49.Tell us what you think about our last big question too.
:41:50. > :41:54.And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience at a future show you
:41:55. > :41:57.We're in Newcastle-upon-Tyne next week, Canterbury on March 12th,
:41:58. > :42:05.On Tuesday, a heterosexual couple lost the latest
:42:06. > :42:07.round in their battle with the courts to be allowed
:42:08. > :42:14.Rebecca Steinfeld and Charles Keidan said they wanted to formalise
:42:15. > :42:17.their relationship in a social institution "which is modern,
:42:18. > :42:19.which is symmetrical and that focuses on equality,
:42:20. > :42:23.which is exactly what a civil partnership is".
:42:24. > :42:26.They're now taking their case to the Supreme Court.
:42:27. > :42:29.But is marriage still the patriarchal institution it once was?
:42:30. > :42:34.Or is marriage today what you make it?
:42:35. > :42:44.Peter, what is your problem with this? Well, right from the get go...
:42:45. > :42:49.I have asked him that many times! When the Labour government in 2003
:42:50. > :42:52.proposed civil partnerships for same-sex couples, it was to block
:42:53. > :42:57.the growing demand for same-sex marriage. It was to buy off the LGBT
:42:58. > :43:04.community but I stood with my colleagues from the Outrage group,
:43:05. > :43:07.the LGBT campaign group, against the prohibition of opposite sex civil
:43:08. > :43:11.partnerships. From the beginning, we said if there are going to be civil
:43:12. > :43:17.partnerships, they have got to be open to everyone. And in those days,
:43:18. > :43:20.ironically, it was only a gay organisation that stood for equal
:43:21. > :43:25.civil partnerships and we have been fighting that cause ever since. I am
:43:26. > :43:29.so glad that this latest court judgment narrowly lost. It came very
:43:30. > :43:33.close to winning. All the judges accept that it was discrimination
:43:34. > :43:36.and it was not sustainable. The government has got to end this
:43:37. > :43:40.discrimination in the near future. I am just sad that the majority was
:43:41. > :43:46.two to one against rather than in favour. Since gay people can get
:43:47. > :43:51.married, why not end civil partnerships for gay people? Have
:43:52. > :43:54.the full shilling. Why not? Because there are some gay and straight
:43:55. > :43:59.people who don't like the institution of marriage. Why not?
:44:00. > :44:03.Some people feel it has a sexist, patriarchal history. They think that
:44:04. > :44:07.civil partnerships are more modern, egalitarian, more suited to the
:44:08. > :44:12.modern age. Whether you agree with them or not, I think people should
:44:13. > :44:14.have the right to make that choice. If civil partnerships exist, as a
:44:15. > :44:15.democratic principle of all being equal before the law, they should be
:44:16. > :44:31.open to everyone, I think. Marriage itself, as a humanist
:44:32. > :44:36.celebrant, it is what you make it. It is not off-the-shelf, it is
:44:37. > :44:41.tailor-made. Made to suit you. Yes. I think I would want to answer the
:44:42. > :44:45.question to say yes and no. The no part of it is very much in line with
:44:46. > :44:53.what Peter has been talking about, the patriarchy of the history of
:44:54. > :44:56.marriage, barnacles on human relationships, it emerged
:44:57. > :45:00.historically under conditions where the subjugation of part of the
:45:01. > :45:04.population, broadly women, was brought about by broadly men. Women
:45:05. > :45:10.became like chattels to be owned by another human being. The answer, is
:45:11. > :45:15.marriage what you make it, in relation to that aspect of the
:45:16. > :45:19.definition of marriage, definitely the answer is no, you cannot make it
:45:20. > :45:23.what you want to make it because it is an institution. If we take
:45:24. > :45:26.marriage in the common-sense understanding of human beings
:45:27. > :45:30.choosing to make a relationship with each other, to bond with each other,
:45:31. > :45:35.the answer is most definitely, yes, marriage is what you make it. All of
:45:36. > :45:40.those antiquated laws have been thrown out of the window. Even with
:45:41. > :45:45.a formal religious marriage, you are to each other what you want to be to
:45:46. > :45:52.each other. No, I don't think so. It is not free for you to choose. No.
:45:53. > :46:01.We are living with each other by consent, civil partnership which is
:46:02. > :46:06.a legality, secular wedding which is a foul and faith which is a
:46:07. > :46:10.covenant. The whole of the concept of our law, even today, and the
:46:11. > :46:14.marriage act, it is marriage is only marriage where there is consummation
:46:15. > :46:20.of sexual intercourse between two and so the civil partnership
:46:21. > :46:24.actually excludes that because... Marriage can be about cherishing
:46:25. > :46:27.each other, mutual comfort, it does not have to be about six. The law of
:46:28. > :46:39.the land, you're not married if you cannot consummate the marriage if
:46:40. > :46:43.there are no sexual relations, the marriage can be annulled. You cannot
:46:44. > :46:48.say there are just four aspects to marriage. Bonding between human
:46:49. > :46:51.beings, committing publicly in front of your community, friends family,
:46:52. > :47:01.it goes back way beyond any religion. In the Bible, he went in
:47:02. > :47:05.and knew her, had intercourse. That was the marriage. I want to talk
:47:06. > :47:09.about briefly if I can talking about marriage before it was a social and
:47:10. > :47:13.state contract, looking at it in terms of the human species. This
:47:14. > :47:17.business of humans relating to each other, striving and yearning for the
:47:18. > :47:22.best possible human relationships they can build, witnessed by public
:47:23. > :47:27.community, their families, it goes back, there is evidence for it in
:47:28. > :47:31.prehistory, those types of ceremonies, those rituals, they are
:47:32. > :47:36.very deep. They make covenants with each other, not just illegal
:47:37. > :47:42.agreement, you get the car and I get the television. They make them.
:47:43. > :47:47.Isn't marriage legitimate if there has never been sexual relations?
:47:48. > :47:54.Under British law, no. Under biblical law... Compassion comes in,
:47:55. > :48:02.two disabled people, compassion comes in. Compassion? You say, you
:48:03. > :48:10.do not fulfil the law. The law is marriage must be consummated. I am
:48:11. > :48:12.on about the law. You have a disabled couple who cannot
:48:13. > :48:18.physically consummate their marriage, you out of compassion with
:48:19. > :48:23.a...? Why does the compassion fail when it is a same-sex couple? Your
:48:24. > :48:30.faith will tell you if you can do that. Same-sex people cannot
:48:31. > :48:36.consummate a marriage. Neither can two disabled people. Why is it
:48:37. > :48:40.different? Ajmal Masroor, are there certain obligations within an
:48:41. > :48:48.Islamic marriage, clearly defined roles? Daesh it is defined by a
:48:49. > :48:52.partnership between man and woman, consensually, of course, partnership
:48:53. > :48:56.in the sense of partners of two equals, to create a safe space for
:48:57. > :49:01.people to grow, emotionally, spiritually, most of us concentrate
:49:02. > :49:05.on physically and the other two are missed out. Creating a space where
:49:06. > :49:09.love and compassion and mercy can flourish. It is a space where you
:49:10. > :49:13.can be reflective. You can be who you want to be. You make the
:49:14. > :49:18.marriage work or fail. People fail marriages because they do not invest
:49:19. > :49:21.time. There is this amazing idea that marriage will be completely
:49:22. > :49:25.formed in the heavens and dropped on your lap. Do you believe in falling
:49:26. > :49:32.in love? Of course. You may not fall in love. Full out of love? You may
:49:33. > :49:37.not be in love and be married. It is not all about love. Is it better to
:49:38. > :49:42.have a few relationships before you get married? Is that fornication? In
:49:43. > :49:47.Islam, you're not allowed to have sexual relations outside of
:49:48. > :49:51.marriage. You should get married to settle down and start a family. The
:49:52. > :49:57.most important principle is that it creates a safe space in which
:49:58. > :50:01.tranquillity, peace, happiness and partnership can grow, children can
:50:02. > :50:05.grow, the future progeny can grow, but more importantly, in marriage,
:50:06. > :50:09.where we fail is we do not communicate well, we do not evaluate
:50:10. > :50:13.our marriage well and we do not look at one another, we look at what we
:50:14. > :50:18.need rather than what we want to offer. Speak for yourself! One of
:50:19. > :50:28.the most important thing is young people fail, they want, me, me, me.
:50:29. > :50:31.The selfish culture is destroying marriage. Marriage is about
:50:32. > :50:36.spiritual connection between two people. Love is not material, it is
:50:37. > :50:39.not tangible. If you cannot spiritually connect, there is a
:50:40. > :50:45.problem. Love should grow with time. What does spiritually connect mean?
:50:46. > :50:50.Can you quantify love for me? It is spiritual. I love my wife every day,
:50:51. > :50:55.more. Some days I may feel rotten and I don't love anybody. I'm
:50:56. > :50:58.allowed to do that. There is also a false dichotomy within our own
:50:59. > :51:04.understanding of marriage and that is you marry to take -- you married
:51:05. > :51:09.to stay together for ever. Rolling contract, every ten years. Maybe,
:51:10. > :51:17.you should renew it. Would you like to renew yours? I don't know. Yes!
:51:18. > :51:23.What are you saying? You can indeed do that. With humanist ceremonies,
:51:24. > :51:28.you can organise to renew your vows. You can make a choice to say, I want
:51:29. > :51:31.now to have a public ceremony with friends and family where we come
:51:32. > :51:38.together at the end of ten years and we renew... I have been to a couple
:51:39. > :51:44.of those and it is sometimes a bit of a sticking plaster. Let us renew
:51:45. > :51:48.our vows. Very shortly after that, am I speaking out of turn? I am
:51:49. > :51:57.sorry if those friends are watching the programme this morning! We say
:51:58. > :52:03.that in our discipline, every seven years, ask your husband or wife, how
:52:04. > :52:07.are we doing? Can we do things better? If you do not talk and you
:52:08. > :52:12.get stagnant, you are made for disaster and misery. Going back to
:52:13. > :52:19.what you said, in Islam, husband and wife are not equal. They are. In
:52:20. > :52:28.Muslim societies, maybe they are not. Are you like that at home? Very
:52:29. > :52:34.happy with my wife! If you have a falling out with your wife, you can
:52:35. > :52:38.admonish her, stop having sexual relations with her, beat her. A wife
:52:39. > :52:43.is not allowed to beat her husband. They treat the wife as if she is in
:52:44. > :52:47.the area and as though she is a child. You admonish a child if they
:52:48. > :52:53.have done something wrong. Rather than advocating a healthy adult
:52:54. > :52:56.discussion, if you are having some kind of disagreement, they advocate
:52:57. > :53:02.violence. Not only that, they also say... Back to the first debate, the
:53:03. > :53:07.cultural reasons, you are only allowed to hit your wife with a
:53:08. > :53:16.toothpick. There is a very clear... Bus in the Koran that says, it is a
:53:17. > :53:24.metaphor, garment is a metaphor for partnership, not fights. -- there is
:53:25. > :53:30.a very clear verse. The lady there. A couple of points. First, I find it
:53:31. > :53:35.really hard but we cannot get behind the idea that we can progress from
:53:36. > :53:39.something. Marriage is a patriarchal institution. I do not understand why
:53:40. > :53:44.in a day that we are striving towards equality of all
:53:45. > :53:49.descriptions, between men and women, between different sexualities,
:53:50. > :53:53.different religions, different skin colours, all of that, why can't we
:53:54. > :53:58.understand that marriage can progress? It can be a more equal
:53:59. > :54:02.institution. Personally, I do not necessarily feel that marriage would
:54:03. > :54:07.be anything other than equal. I certainly do not subscribe to the
:54:08. > :54:15.patriarchal institution. The other point I want to make is that in
:54:16. > :54:18.terms of disabled people being able to be married but not apparently
:54:19. > :54:25.able to consummate, in legality, there are lots of different things
:54:26. > :54:29.that come to mean some sort of sexual practice. Lots of different
:54:30. > :54:34.things mean consummation? Not just one particular... It is all about
:54:35. > :54:40.legally and spiritually. We not condemning. You may say the law is
:54:41. > :54:47.an as. What is the definition of consummation? Penetrating six. That
:54:48. > :54:52.is what it is under the law. Can I suggest we might think about
:54:53. > :54:56.starting all over again? For those who want marriage or civil
:54:57. > :54:59.partnerships... The first debate, you mean?
:55:00. > :55:05.LAUGHTER Do the whole show again? The Daily
:55:06. > :55:10.Politics... Start again. Wipe the slate clean. For those who are happy
:55:11. > :55:16.with marriage and civil partnerships, fine, but they are the
:55:17. > :55:21.same model, marriage by a different name. Let us start again with a new
:55:22. > :55:24.framework. I would say that there should be an alternative to marriage
:55:25. > :55:29.and civil partnerships for those who want it, namely that a person cannot
:55:30. > :55:33.make any significant other in their life as next of kin or beneficiary
:55:34. > :55:40.and it might be a partner, but if they are single, it might be a
:55:41. > :55:45.lifelong best friend. Packs dodge? No. -- tax dodge. When it comes to
:55:46. > :55:50.loving relationships, people should be able to pick and mix from a menu
:55:51. > :55:53.of rights and responsible at ease to make a partnership agreement
:55:54. > :55:57.tailor-made to their needs. That is to try to take into account that
:55:58. > :56:03.nowadays people live in many different types of relationships.
:56:04. > :56:06.Some partners live together, some think paying independence, some have
:56:07. > :56:12.kids, some do not. Let people make their tailor-made partnership
:56:13. > :56:15.agreements and if they have to go through a check list point by point,
:56:16. > :56:17.I think they would think more seriously about their obligations
:56:18. > :56:24.and commitments. APPLAUSE
:56:25. > :56:29.Blue jumper, hello. I would like to ask, when somebody proposes to get
:56:30. > :56:32.married in a church, the Anglican Church, the Methodist Church or the
:56:33. > :56:38.Quakers, where I have come from, they have to have a discussion with
:56:39. > :56:42.the Minister or vector, I really do find it hard to understand what type
:56:43. > :56:54.of discussion they might have to have before they get married. --
:56:55. > :56:59.Victor. We do a nine week preparation course, talking about
:57:00. > :57:06.sexuality, covenants... Sexuality is none of your business? It is. I am
:57:07. > :57:13.very good at it. I don't doubt it, David. Sexuality is part of our
:57:14. > :57:20.spirituality, if you do not hold it in your spirituality, it is secular.
:57:21. > :57:27.It is not. Do you want to come in here, Salma? Defer to your learned
:57:28. > :57:34.colleague. I have been through marriage and divorce and it was not
:57:35. > :57:39.an easy thing to do. I believe in love. I believe in commitment. I am
:57:40. > :57:45.a mum. It was the most difficult thing I have been through, I would
:57:46. > :57:49.say. Reflecting on it, for me, marriage yes, it is about what to
:57:50. > :57:55.people make it and what goes on in your house, but the real test is
:57:56. > :57:59.what happens when things do not work, what rights are you left with?
:58:00. > :58:03.That is why it is important about how we as a society do it. I think
:58:04. > :58:11.the UK is fantastic for that. At least if you have a registered
:58:12. > :58:16.marriage, your rights are clear. No one party gets discriminated against
:58:17. > :58:20.and it reflects an Islamic approach. As a woman, I can enter the contract
:58:21. > :58:26.with whatever condition I want to put. It is not about you have to be
:58:27. > :58:32.this or that. But if someone does not adhere to that, what happens? If
:58:33. > :58:36.someone is abusive? That is why it as a society is important to have
:58:37. > :58:43.rules. We have to leave it there. Thank you for your participation. We
:58:44. > :58:49.must leave each other there. Debates continue on Twitter. Next week we
:58:50. > :58:52.are in Newcastle upon Tyne. See you then.