0:00:09 > 0:00:11Today on The Big Questions:
0:00:11 > 0:00:13Should the people have the final say on the Brexit deal?
0:00:13 > 0:00:15And, who should decide whether a child's life-sustaining
0:00:15 > 0:00:23treatment should be stopped?
0:00:31 > 0:00:34Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
0:00:34 > 0:00:35Today we're live from the Attenborough Centre
0:00:35 > 0:00:37at the University of Sussex.
0:00:37 > 0:00:44Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
0:00:47 > 0:00:48Here we go...
0:00:48 > 0:00:51The debate over who should have the final say over the Brexit
0:00:51 > 0:00:52deal continues to rumble on.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54This week the campaign group Best for Britain launched a legal
0:00:54 > 0:01:01challenge to make the government concede a second vote on Brexit.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04This comes on top of the private member's bill tabled by the Labour
0:01:04 > 0:01:07MP Geraint Davies calling for a second referendum on whatever
0:01:07 > 0:01:10the Brexit deal turns out to be, plus a call from Caroline Lucas,
0:01:10 > 0:01:12co-leader of the Greens, for a people's poll on the final
0:01:12 > 0:01:18deal because of its possible effect on Northern Ireland.
0:01:18 > 0:01:20Last year, Gina Miller's private action against the Government
0:01:20 > 0:01:23secured the right of Parliament to a final vote on the Brexit deal.
0:01:23 > 0:01:27But given the ever-changing demographics of the UK,
0:01:27 > 0:01:30where those who were most likely to have voted for Brexit are being
0:01:30 > 0:01:34steadily replaced by young people,
0:01:34 > 0:01:41who overwhelmingly favoured staying in the EU,
0:01:41 > 0:01:44we ask,
0:01:44 > 0:01:50"Should the people have the final say on the terms of Brexit?"
0:01:50 > 0:01:54From Best for Britain, Chief Executive, Eloise Todd, let's be
0:01:54 > 0:02:00honest, that's arguable... (!)... What is it about leave that you do
0:02:00 > 0:02:05not understand, because the people have voted.The people voted in 2016
0:02:05 > 0:02:09for an idea of what Brexit might be by 2018 is looking really different,
0:02:09 > 0:02:14it is only now that we are starting to see what the invasion might be
0:02:14 > 0:02:19for the country as a whole and for families. We were told we would have
0:02:19 > 0:02:23great opportunities of trading with the US, looks more like steel
0:02:23 > 0:02:25tariffs, trade wars, chlorinated chicken. We were told we would have
0:02:25 > 0:02:29a boost for the NHS, actually, doctors and nurses are leaving, and
0:02:29 > 0:02:35we do not have the financial input we were expecting. We were also told
0:02:35 > 0:02:38we would be able to take back control but the deal being
0:02:38 > 0:02:41negotiated by the government looks an awful lot like staying in except
0:02:41 > 0:02:44without the power to make those decisions! We think because those
0:02:44 > 0:02:47things are looking so different, the people of this country needs to
0:02:47 > 0:02:55finish this off and they need to have a say on the new deal.APPLAUSE
0:02:55 > 0:03:00The vote was on whether we stay or go, it was not on the precise deal.
0:03:00 > 0:03:05Exactly, that is exactly why we need to have a vote now, it is only now
0:03:05 > 0:03:08that the terms are becoming clear, how could people have voted with all
0:03:08 > 0:03:14the information they needed at hand. It remains to be seen... It is
0:03:14 > 0:03:18interesting in the newspapers that there is so much about the way in
0:03:18 > 0:03:21which Cambridge analytical work with the Trump election and there will be
0:03:21 > 0:03:26some analysis in terms of weather that had implications for the Brexit
0:03:26 > 0:03:31vote but regardless of that, we need to look at what is on the table
0:03:31 > 0:03:34right now, the government is only now just getting a position
0:03:34 > 0:03:38together. -- Cambridge Analytica. People have a right to know what the
0:03:38 > 0:03:42invitations are and let's face it, how money people in this country
0:03:42 > 0:03:47would trade peace in Northern Ireland for a Brexit vote, that is
0:03:47 > 0:03:50not something that was on the table! That is an important part of this,
0:03:50 > 0:03:58and we will be addressing that shortly. Chloe, former head of
0:03:58 > 0:04:02social media at about leave, Chloe Westley, it is now emerging exactly
0:04:02 > 0:04:07what this may mean, we did not know that before, the precise details of
0:04:07 > 0:04:10the deal are going to have an effect on generations to come. -- at Vote
0:04:10 > 0:04:13Leave. Surely we need to have the chance to say whether we want this
0:04:13 > 0:04:17particular deal or not.These calls for a second referendum, it is a
0:04:17 > 0:04:25plot to stop Brexit backs by the big banks, Tony Blair, the political
0:04:25 > 0:04:30elite, and...The political elite? Tony Blair, John Major, the Brussels
0:04:30 > 0:04:34elite, Alistair Campbell, a lot of the big businesses, what possible
0:04:34 > 0:04:38motivation with the EU how to negotiate a good deal with us if
0:04:38 > 0:04:41they knew that they could give us a terrible deal and then we would vote
0:04:41 > 0:04:46to stay in the EU anyway, all this talk about democracy, it is
0:04:46 > 0:04:51nonsense, you just want to stop Brexit, just be open about that.I
0:04:51 > 0:04:57like a silence! LAUGHTER There is no answer, there is no
0:04:57 > 0:05:00answer.I think you will find there probably is from some other people
0:05:00 > 0:05:03who believe they have an answer, but a lot of people would agree with
0:05:03 > 0:05:08what you have said, why not put it to a popular vote, because there is
0:05:08 > 0:05:14nothing undemocratic about that.I thought that we did.We did, in June
0:05:14 > 0:05:192016, and the general election.In 2016, two years ago, we were told
0:05:19 > 0:05:22this was the final say, politicians could not make up their mind, they
0:05:22 > 0:05:27had to the public to decide. They were told... Many different things,
0:05:27 > 0:05:31we were told that this would create absolute economic havoc and people
0:05:31 > 0:05:35still voted to leave, what was promised... What was promised... We
0:05:35 > 0:05:39were promised there would be a punishment budget straight after the
0:05:39 > 0:05:43referendum, unemployment would increase by 800,000. It has gone
0:05:43 > 0:05:47down. Interest rates would go up. There would be an economic
0:05:47 > 0:05:51catastrophe, it has not happened. The doom mongers have egg on their
0:05:51 > 0:05:59face, MEN Arena, you cannot keep going with referendums until Mr
0:05:59 > 0:06:04Mandelson is happy. -- Femi. .Have we got everything we wanted from the
0:06:04 > 0:06:07negotiations in Brussels, how well do you think they are going, does it
0:06:07 > 0:06:10look like they are going well, Army times have we ask for things and the
0:06:10 > 0:06:15EU has said, no, sorry, that is part of the single market, you wanted
0:06:15 > 0:06:19out, you don't get that. If you ask anybody on the street, nobody thinks
0:06:19 > 0:06:24these negotiations are going well, so did people in 2016 vote for a bad
0:06:24 > 0:06:28deal? Did they vote for that? People keep arguing, you cannot say what
0:06:28 > 0:06:32people did not know what they voted for, who in 2016 could have
0:06:32 > 0:06:36predicted the outcome of two years of negotiations in a process that no
0:06:36 > 0:06:39one has ever done before! The people vote for whatever future these
0:06:39 > 0:06:43negotiations come out for?They did vote for specific things, it was
0:06:43 > 0:06:47made quite clear that voting to leave the European Union would be
0:06:47 > 0:06:51coming out of the single market and the customs union, that was in the
0:06:51 > 0:06:55government funded booklet.Sorry, sorry am a listen...Was it made
0:06:55 > 0:07:00clear? It was made clear by Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, David
0:07:00 > 0:07:06Cameron...George Osborne...Allow me to quote Daniel Hannan,
0:07:06 > 0:07:08absolutely nobody is talking about sacrificing our place in the single
0:07:08 > 0:07:13market, that is what he said!Let me quote the electorate, who have been
0:07:13 > 0:07:17blindsided by this, the number of people who want a second referendum
0:07:17 > 0:07:20or second vote, at the end of last year, YouGov at it at 18%, talk
0:07:20 > 0:07:24about the question of single market membership, customs market
0:07:24 > 0:07:28membership, one region in the UK according to Ipsos Mori backs
0:07:28 > 0:07:32staying in the customs union, that is London, for obvious reasons. You
0:07:32 > 0:07:38have to come clean about this, since referendum, 20 odd months of this
0:07:38 > 0:07:41very vocal, very elitist section of the Remain campaign screaming about
0:07:41 > 0:07:46"Brexit", the temerity of the people devote leave, backing calls for MPs
0:07:46 > 0:07:51to intervene, launching legal challenges, the fact the very same
0:07:51 > 0:07:55people are now saying you believe in democracy so much that you want us
0:07:55 > 0:08:00to have a second say... We don't buy it, and...Why don't you believe in
0:08:00 > 0:08:05democracy, why don't you trust democracy, Tom
0:08:05 > 0:08:07democracy, why don't you trust democracy, Tom, if you think the
0:08:07 > 0:08:09deal is going to be so good and the British people will understand how
0:08:09 > 0:08:14good the deal is, and we are heading towards the sunny uplands, why don't
0:08:14 > 0:08:17you put it to them, because you must trust the British people on this
0:08:17 > 0:08:24one, or, do you not trust them?I voted leave because I am a Democrat
0:08:24 > 0:08:27and the European Union limits democracy. It is quite clear that
0:08:27 > 0:08:31elites have always tried to use avail of democracy to bury
0:08:31 > 0:08:36anti-democratic means. Couple of examples, whenever...The Vale of
0:08:36 > 0:08:41democracy for anti-democratic means. We can all accept that in the same
0:08:41 > 0:08:43way that you don't think you should try the same person over and over
0:08:43 > 0:08:46again in the hopes that you prosecute them is more justice,
0:08:46 > 0:08:49putting the same question over and over again until you get the right
0:08:49 > 0:08:55answer that is not democracy.We have a representative of the
0:08:55 > 0:08:59political elites... (!)... LAUGHTER The idea that
0:09:01 > 0:09:03the idea that Nigel Farage is not the political elite, that is
0:09:03 > 0:09:10hilarious.Caroline Lucas.I think, what happened in the referendum is
0:09:10 > 0:09:14people voted for departure, they were unable to vote on destination
0:09:14 > 0:09:18because it was not made clear, it is as if people were promised a
0:09:18 > 0:09:21wonderful mansion and yet what they have ended up with is a bit of a
0:09:21 > 0:09:24shack with dodgy wiring and the bombing doesn't work and it is fair
0:09:24 > 0:09:29enough in that scenario. -- plumbing. Do you want to have a look
0:09:29 > 0:09:34at the final deal, see what this place will look like? If people like
0:09:34 > 0:09:38it, fine, have it, if they don't, people should have the right to stay
0:09:38 > 0:09:42inside the European Union and not move house. The consequences of
0:09:42 > 0:09:48leaving are becoming clearer by the moment, and I and so negative
0:09:48 > 0:09:53because you have investment down, inflation up, the NHS bleeding from
0:09:53 > 0:09:57people leaving it, the number of nurses coming into it down by over
0:09:57 > 0:10:0290%...APPLAUSE That is some very big negatives.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05That is before we get to Northern Ireland. I really worry about
0:10:05 > 0:10:10that...Let's focus on that in a moment, because it deserves a
0:10:10 > 0:10:13section of the debate on its own, if you don't mind, there is another
0:10:13 > 0:10:17couple of issues. Who was it he said, don't be so negative. Do you
0:10:17 > 0:10:22think that Remainers are being far too negative? Should we hold hands
0:10:22 > 0:10:25and marched together?Absolutely, we should be unified, the country made
0:10:25 > 0:10:32a decision, now we need... Now we need to enact the decision.37% of
0:10:32 > 0:10:37the country made a decision.Rather than trying to fight the referendum
0:10:37 > 0:10:41again...INAUDIBLE You are trying to stop Brexit, glad
0:10:41 > 0:10:45to see you were honest, it is good to see is honesty.Can I ask you for
0:10:45 > 0:10:51some honesty. I will be with you in a moment, Femi, because you wanted
0:10:51 > 0:10:54to talk about demographics and the ageing population, the young
0:10:54 > 0:11:01people's region has been stolen... In the phrase you people use... But
0:11:01 > 0:11:04if the phrase had been to stay in the European Union, would you have
0:11:04 > 0:11:07stopped campaigning to leave?I would always have campaigned as I
0:11:07 > 0:11:11have done for nearly two decades. Would you have campaigned for a
0:11:11 > 0:11:16second referendum?We would not be given the time of day, we had this
0:11:16 > 0:11:20despite Brexit, when things going well, it would
0:11:21 > 0:11:24would you have campaigned for a second referendum?We would not have
0:11:24 > 0:11:29been able to have the airtime, this debate... I would of course have
0:11:29 > 0:11:33continued in what I'm doing because I passionately believe the British
0:11:33 > 0:11:37people...If you had the chance of a second referendum, you would have
0:11:37 > 0:11:42really stepped up to the plate.We would not be given one, once someone
0:11:42 > 0:11:46votes against the European Union, they are made to vote again, to vote
0:11:46 > 0:11:50the right way, and then not given a say. That is how democracy works in
0:11:50 > 0:11:54the European Union. You have to support the European Union. What we
0:11:54 > 0:11:58need to do, we have had a vote, we need to move forward together and
0:11:58 > 0:12:02find any future that the country going towards.A future for our
0:12:02 > 0:12:05children, our grandchildren, the future for you, Femi, what is shot
0:12:05 > 0:12:12ageist point about old people voting for this. -- what is your ageist
0:12:12 > 0:12:17point.Isn't it undemocratic that we currently have a Tory government, we
0:12:17 > 0:12:22voted for Labour in the 2000s, why are we allowed to change our minds?
0:12:22 > 0:12:26Isn't the basis of democracy that we can change our minds, we know that
0:12:26 > 0:12:33in the 18 to 24-year-old age group, 70%, remain. Under 55, possibly
0:12:33 > 0:12:38under 65, voted remain. By anyone's mats, in five years' time, we have a
0:12:38 > 0:12:41population the majority of whom voted to remain yet they will be
0:12:41 > 0:12:46stuck with Brexit. We'll "Brexit" be complete then? -- mathematics. Can
0:12:46 > 0:12:49you negotiate trade deals with hundreds of countries in five years?
0:12:49 > 0:12:54Can you make all your own laws? Religious Labour country, given that
0:12:54 > 0:12:57one law going through Parliament takes a year.APPLAUSE
0:12:57 > 0:13:02Brexit will not be complete, any when you complete...By the time we
0:13:02 > 0:13:06have a population that voted against it, and yet that is their future and
0:13:06 > 0:13:10our future.Five years, ten years down the time... There will be a
0:13:10 > 0:13:14population down the road that is saddled with something they do not
0:13:14 > 0:13:19want.Yes. It has been put at 2020, financial Times, 2021, within two
0:13:19 > 0:13:24years, one year of the Brexit leaving the EU, we have a population
0:13:24 > 0:13:27that voted against it.It may turn out to be really good that the
0:13:27 > 0:13:31country.This is the most ugly argument I have heard, you are
0:13:31 > 0:13:34suggesting young people should have two votes, rather than everybody
0:13:34 > 0:13:40else, this is the front to -- you can play demographic games just for
0:13:40 > 0:13:46the sake of Brexit not happening. This is an affront to democracy.
0:13:46 > 0:13:48Once in a generation opportunity to settle this question, we were told.
0:13:48 > 0:13:52And secondly, the point that you really have directed nice, if we
0:13:52 > 0:13:56have a second referendum, why would people take it seriously? The elite
0:13:56 > 0:14:00has already said, we know that you have had your say, try again. I
0:14:00 > 0:14:04would not blame anyone who would not intervene. I know that that is
0:14:04 > 0:14:08essentially what you are counting on.Does he represent the elite?I
0:14:08 > 0:14:14am saying, elitist.This notion that... That a vote on the terms of
0:14:14 > 0:14:19Brexit would thwart the word of the people, that it would be a big
0:14:19 > 0:14:21establishment coup... The will of the people cannot be faulted by a
0:14:21 > 0:14:29vote of the people! -- cannot be thwarted!APPLAUSE
0:14:30 > 0:14:34an you are saying that people can been manipulated into voting another
0:14:34 > 0:14:38way, why would a vote on the terms of Brexit be any different?A second
0:14:38 > 0:14:44referendum...It is almost a given that we will know the outcome of the
0:14:44 > 0:14:52negotiations.We did not know that then. Nothing democratic about
0:14:52 > 0:14:59holding a second referendum.
0:14:59 > 0:15:04If there were a second referendum, what would the result to be?Who
0:15:04 > 0:15:08knows at that point? I would fight that referendum tooth and nail.That
0:15:08 > 0:15:12would indicate the will of the people. Would you be confident that
0:15:12 > 0:15:16the Brexit side would win that? About this is the problem. At the
0:15:16 > 0:15:21same time a lot of the polls suggest people are not changing their minds
0:15:21 > 0:15:25about Brexit...This is what happened when they voted against the
0:15:25 > 0:15:31Lisbon Treaty in Ireland, they voted against the Lisbon Treaty and they
0:15:31 > 0:15:35browbeat them. They are effectively told the people that their voice
0:15:35 > 0:15:40does not matter.This is very different.In a second I want to see
0:15:40 > 0:15:43what the audience thing. I am sorry I did not have the chance to speak
0:15:43 > 0:15:49to you earlier. Go on?My opinion is that if there
0:15:49 > 0:15:54were to be a second referendum, I very much hope that the result would
0:15:54 > 0:16:01go the same way. Then maybe MPs, celebrities, members of the public
0:16:01 > 0:16:06that can't, won't, don't want to access the result of the first
0:16:06 > 0:16:11referendum will then have to. And then let's move on and get on with
0:16:11 > 0:16:16it.Do you think there is an argument for put up or shut up? Go
0:16:16 > 0:16:21for it, let's have the votes, it will go our way yet again and then
0:16:21 > 0:16:27you can just get on with it and go with it? You will never have another
0:16:27 > 0:16:33chance, Mr Mandelson?I would not advocate having another referendum.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36As this gentleman said, we have had it, it was once-in-a-lifetime,
0:16:36 > 0:16:41that's it. Let's get over it. If people do not like the results, use
0:16:41 > 0:16:47what power you have. If you are an MP, for example, make sure we get
0:16:47 > 0:16:52the best possible deal that we can when we leave. Channel your energies
0:16:52 > 0:16:55into that, not just fighting each other and not letting it drop.Which
0:16:55 > 0:17:01is what Robert said. Any more?I think the issue to
0:17:01 > 0:17:06consider it is a lot of people voted for Leave on the principles of the
0:17:06 > 0:17:10NHS. Where is the £350 million a week going to the NHS that we were
0:17:10 > 0:17:16so blatantly promised by multiple members of the electorate when the
0:17:16 > 0:17:20British public voted Leave? I was 16 at the time of the votes, I was not
0:17:20 > 0:17:25given an opportunity to share my opinion. The only way I could
0:17:25 > 0:17:29contribute was to campaign, share my opinions with older people. Why is
0:17:29 > 0:17:35my future...? I was an informed 16-year-old, more informed than lots
0:17:35 > 0:17:39of the population.You would have had a God in Scotland.I might have
0:17:39 > 0:17:43been a lot more informed that 16 then a lot of adults in the country
0:17:43 > 0:17:49and was denied the opportunity... More informed than the adults who
0:17:49 > 0:17:53had been inside the European Union, who voted to remain into it in 1975,
0:17:53 > 0:17:57it has evolved into something we do not like and have change their minds
0:17:57 > 0:18:02and want to come out, want a future outside the European Union. Most of
0:18:02 > 0:18:06the global growth in the world will happen outside the EU. Why do you
0:18:06 > 0:18:09think you know better than people who have experienced the EU? What
0:18:09 > 0:18:17happened to young people that you are willing to side with the
0:18:17 > 0:18:19political interests of organisations like Goldman Sachs who cooked the
0:18:19 > 0:18:23books on the Euro? Young people are, in your case, slavishly following
0:18:23 > 0:18:27what the European Union says and signing up to what they say, rather
0:18:27 > 0:18:32than challenging the elites and questioning the power?I think it is
0:18:32 > 0:18:36very easy to dismiss young people because we have not had as much
0:18:36 > 0:18:40experience as Older People.You just said you knew more than older
0:18:40 > 0:18:44people.That is a misconstruing of what I said, I said I might have
0:18:44 > 0:18:49been more informed than some of the adults, not all of them, but some,
0:18:49 > 0:18:54who voted on Brexit. With my knowledge of what the Brexited
0:18:54 > 0:18:57Tameka Brexit negotiations could have meant then, it was unfortunate
0:18:57 > 0:19:01I was denied the opportunity to vote. As a young person who will
0:19:01 > 0:19:04have to deal with the consequences of Brexit, whichever way they go, I
0:19:04 > 0:19:09think it is only fair that I have a chance to share my boys. I think it
0:19:09 > 0:19:12is very important that the British people know what they decide on when
0:19:12 > 0:19:17we leave the EU. -- I think it is only fair that I have a chance to
0:19:17 > 0:19:22share my voice.If I give you a contribution with no partiality, I
0:19:22 > 0:19:25am completely impartial, it was a brilliant contribution and thank you
0:19:25 > 0:19:32for making a -- I thank you for your contribution with no partiality. You
0:19:32 > 0:19:37had stood your ground against Robert Olds, a doughty and experienced
0:19:37 > 0:19:44campaigner. You are a member of The Bruges Group, named after a speech
0:19:44 > 0:19:48by Margaret Thatcher who invented the single market? She would have
0:19:48 > 0:19:54been a Remainer?Margaret Thatcher was leaving the EU. She campaigned
0:19:54 > 0:20:01in 1975 to remain but later changed her mind. In her book, she was quite
0:20:01 > 0:20:07clear. I knew Margaret Thatcher, I know she was for Leave because she
0:20:07 > 0:20:11wanted this country to decide its own future.You knew Margaret
0:20:11 > 0:20:15Thatcher and we are apparently the elite?! This is hilarious. It is now
0:20:15 > 0:20:19the political elites delivering Brexit. Both major parties right now
0:20:19 > 0:20:25are pro-Brexit, there is not a big voice for staying in beyond the two
0:20:25 > 0:20:30big parties.The two major parties have manifestos to get on and leave.
0:20:30 > 0:20:34The people of this party, consistently since the election last
0:20:34 > 0:20:37year where Theresa May clearly lost a mandate for the extreme Brexit she
0:20:37 > 0:20:41has been peddling but pushing anyway, the people are nudging in
0:20:41 > 0:20:43favour of staying in.That is not true.
0:20:43 > 0:20:50ALL TALK AT ONCE
0:20:50 > 0:20:53ALL TALK AT ONCEOver 80% of the voters voted for parties pledging to
0:20:53 > 0:20:56take Britain out of the EU and the single market.
0:20:56 > 0:21:01Because we have a two party system. Those were the manifestos.You say
0:21:01 > 0:21:06you speak for all young people, only 9% of people under 25 voted for the
0:21:06 > 0:21:10Lib Dems. The rest of us voted for the main parties promising to
0:21:10 > 0:21:14deliver Brexit. People have voted twice to come out of the EU, why
0:21:14 > 0:21:19won't you listen? ALL TALK AT ONCEA tactical vote
0:21:19 > 0:21:23last year against the Conservative Party.
0:21:23 > 0:21:27It is this conflict between what they think and what their
0:21:27 > 0:21:32constituents think and what their manifesto has said, it is difficult?
0:21:32 > 0:21:36There are plenty of people in the Labour Party who want to remain, and
0:21:36 > 0:21:39plenty of people who voted Labour thinking Labour wanted to remain.
0:21:39 > 0:21:43Jeremy Corbyn has been taking this rather dodgy line between trying not
0:21:43 > 0:21:47to offend too many people either side. To suggest the general
0:21:47 > 0:21:51election result was a mandate for the extreme Brexit that Theresa May
0:21:51 > 0:21:57is still pursuing is a fantasy.What is an extreme Brexit?Out of the
0:21:57 > 0:22:01single market, out of the customs union, voting to break up the
0:22:01 > 0:22:04Northern Ireland peace agreement. That is extreme. If we had a Prime
0:22:04 > 0:22:08Minister who wanted to bring the country together, she could have
0:22:08 > 0:22:11pursued the so-called no Wayne Mardle when you are still inside the
0:22:11 > 0:22:15single market. There was no mandate for the extreme Brexit she is
0:22:15 > 0:22:20pursuing. I have heard Dan Hannan, the MEP from the Conservative Party,
0:22:20 > 0:22:24regularly saying, as Femi said, there is no reason to lead the
0:22:24 > 0:22:29single market. -- to leave the single market. The leaders of the
0:22:29 > 0:22:32Leave campaign never set out, deliberately, what Leave would look
0:22:32 > 0:22:39like. It is very different from the Scottish referendum. The people who
0:22:39 > 0:22:41wanted independence set out a big manifesto of what it would look like
0:22:41 > 0:22:44so you knew the details. This was deliberately not done in this vote
0:22:44 > 0:22:48so that people could play at how they want. Rather than calling it a
0:22:48 > 0:22:52second referendum, we need a vote on the final deal. It is voting on the
0:22:52 > 0:22:57detail... There were lots of imponderables
0:22:57 > 0:23:03about the Scottish referendum. The pound, the future of oil, the future
0:23:03 > 0:23:08with the EU.The idea there is no mandate for hard Brexit or, as I
0:23:08 > 0:23:11like to call, Brexit, is just for the birds. 17.4 million people voted
0:23:11 > 0:23:16to leave the EU, the most people who have ever voted for everything ever
0:23:16 > 0:23:19in this country.Not all of those voted to leave the market.
0:23:19 > 0:23:26ALL TALK AT ONCEThe slogan for the Leave campaign was to take back
0:23:26 > 0:23:29control, which you cannot if you are in the single market and Customs
0:23:29 > 0:23:31union. Their idea of a mandate for the
0:23:31 > 0:23:35second referendum or pulling is out of the European Union is ridiculous.
0:23:35 > 0:23:41It is not a second referendum. According to YouGov, about 18% want
0:23:41 > 0:23:47a second referendum under 16% want stop it entirely. This is not
0:23:47 > 0:23:51Leavers versus Remainers macro, this is Democrats against anti-democrat.
0:23:51 > 0:23:56The thing about Brexit, this energised a section of the
0:23:56 > 0:23:59electorate who had not made their voices heard for a very long time,
0:23:59 > 0:24:03who felt completely passed by politics. They recognise this as an
0:24:03 > 0:24:08opportunity...Do you support proportional representation, a feral
0:24:08 > 0:24:12goat?UK bringing in another point to finish.Is Brexit does not
0:24:12 > 0:24:16happen, if there is a stitch up, a waiter is avoided, you will destroy
0:24:16 > 0:24:20the idea of democracy in this country for a generation. -- a
0:24:20 > 0:24:26stitch up, a way it is avoided.If this poll is somehow
0:24:26 > 0:24:30anti-democratic, will he supports proportional representation, there
0:24:30 > 0:24:33voting? That is how you get to hear people the whole year round. The
0:24:33 > 0:24:37reason so many people took part in the Brexit votes is that they knew
0:24:37 > 0:24:41it would count for once, it has not in successive... I would love to
0:24:41 > 0:24:46know if you would like people's vote to camp the whole time around?What
0:24:46 > 0:24:50is the difference between a referendum and the People's poll?I
0:24:50 > 0:24:55am using the words People's poll because I want to get away from the
0:24:55 > 0:24:58idea that we are rerunning the same question from June 20 16. The
0:24:58 > 0:25:01question on the ballot paper will be on the detail...It is another
0:25:01 > 0:25:05referendum asking a different question.That is why do not like
0:25:05 > 0:25:10the word second referendum, it sounds like rerunning the first
0:25:10 > 0:25:14referendum.It has the option to keep this in the EU, despite people
0:25:14 > 0:25:18voting...Before we start signing proper trade deals with President,
0:25:18 > 0:25:23what is his name, president at our day, the mass murdering president of
0:25:23 > 0:25:30the Philippines, Liam Fox says we share common values. Before we
0:25:30 > 0:25:36signed deals with human rights abuses and murder across the world,
0:25:36 > 0:25:39shouldn't we take stock?We should take stock of what the British
0:25:39 > 0:25:43people voted for when it was clearly explained that voting to leave the
0:25:43 > 0:25:47EU would mean coming out of the single market and the customs union.
0:25:47 > 0:25:51The British people want free trade, they always have. They have always
0:25:51 > 0:25:55been open-minded to the rest of the world and the global future. Talking
0:25:55 > 0:25:58about trade deals with other countries is instinctive to Britain.
0:25:58 > 0:26:03Going back over 100 years there were free trade Hall set up around the
0:26:03 > 0:26:09country in Manchester... People want to be open to the rest of the world,
0:26:09 > 0:26:15that is where the future lies, not the EU.Wasn't it is likeable,
0:26:15 > 0:26:19located by Matt? Eloise?Does the future lie with people like Trump,
0:26:19 > 0:26:23trading with them, who will put up trade tariffs when it suits them,
0:26:23 > 0:26:27really hurting industries in this country? We have been sold a pup
0:26:27 > 0:26:30when it comes to the opportunities beyond the EU for trade. You had to
0:26:30 > 0:26:43listen to the Japanese ambassador in Downing Street who
0:26:46 > 0:26:48said companies will leave this country if it is no longer
0:26:48 > 0:26:51profitable to trade. The car industry is under threat, so many
0:26:51 > 0:26:53other manufacturing industries are under threat if we are threatening
0:26:53 > 0:26:55to come out of the single market. Manufacturing has increased since
0:26:55 > 0:26:57the referendum, exports have increased.It is not Project Fear,
0:26:57 > 0:27:00people were not told the realities about the opportunities for us. We
0:27:00 > 0:27:06could be in the EE you as one of the most impactful, influential leaders
0:27:06 > 0:27:09there, writing legislation for other countries and ourselves in issues
0:27:09 > 0:27:16that we care about... We could be in the EU as.If we went back in, the
0:27:16 > 0:27:19bitterness and resentment among those people who sincerely believe
0:27:19 > 0:27:25we should not be in their because of the whole project, can you imagine?
0:27:25 > 0:27:32The sense of betrayal...What about if in ten years' time we are rooted
0:27:32 > 0:27:36to the bottom of the economic strata, like we are now. What if it
0:27:36 > 0:27:41gets worse and what if there is the joblessness and the NHS...The
0:27:41 > 0:27:46joblessness that young people have in southern Europe because of the
0:27:46 > 0:27:50European Union, young people are out of work in some countries as much
0:27:50 > 0:27:56as...It is because they are in the euro.We should show solidarity to
0:27:56 > 0:28:03young people on the continent who have suffered.Another country said
0:28:03 > 0:28:07they were in with a load of opt outs, now they are out they want a
0:28:07 > 0:28:12lot of opt ins.This is the whole question about the negotiation. I do
0:28:12 > 0:28:16not think the negotiations are going well, I do not think they can go
0:28:16 > 0:28:19well insofar as the EU is not interested in making a good deal of
0:28:19 > 0:28:23us. It is interested in humiliating us for the sake of making sure no
0:28:23 > 0:28:28other member states bowled for the door. This fantastic study before
0:28:28 > 0:28:34Christmas, led by the very venerated pollster John Curtice, found that
0:28:34 > 0:28:38although people are very pessimistic about the short-term economic
0:28:38 > 0:28:42outcomes of Brexit, they wanted to happen because they are Democrats.
0:28:42 > 0:28:48Democracy is at stake, you are trying to subvert it.I am so sorry,
0:28:48 > 0:28:52we have to leave it there, with a rosy vision of the future. Will we
0:28:52 > 0:28:57be a wealthier country in ten years' time as a result of this?We will be
0:28:57 > 0:29:03free to decide alone future, that is the most important.Wealthier?
0:29:03 > 0:29:04Hopefully.Thank you all very much indeed.
0:29:04 > 0:29:07If you have something to say about that debate,
0:29:07 > 0:29:09log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, then follow the link
0:29:09 > 0:29:11to where you can join in the discussion online.
0:29:11 > 0:29:12Or contribute on Twitter.
0:29:12 > 0:29:13Next, here at Sussex University's Attenborough Centre,
0:29:13 > 0:29:16we'll be debating whether doctors or parents should decide
0:29:16 > 0:29:18when to withdraw life-sustaining treatment for children.
0:29:18 > 0:29:20But before that, make a note of this email address -
0:29:20 > 0:29:22audiencetbq@mentorn.tv - if you'd like to apply
0:29:22 > 0:29:25to be in the audience at a future programme.
0:29:25 > 0:29:28We're in Glasgow next Sunday then, after a break for Easter,
0:29:28 > 0:29:31we're in York on April eighth for two shows, the usual live
0:29:31 > 0:29:33edition in the morning and a pre-recorded special
0:29:33 > 0:29:35on the National Health Service in the afternoon.
0:29:35 > 0:29:38It's a similar pattern on April 29th from Salford, where the special
0:29:38 > 0:29:43will probe masculinity.
0:29:43 > 0:29:46And on May 13th from Birmingham, it's two shows again,
0:29:46 > 0:29:54with a special on robotics and artificial intelligence.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01Everyone applauds the advances in medicine that have enabled many
0:30:01 > 0:30:03more children to survive premature births, congenital abnormalities
0:30:03 > 0:30:05and serious illnesses.
0:30:05 > 0:30:08There are many children alive today enjoying full and healthy lives
0:30:08 > 0:30:13who would have died just a decade ago.
0:30:13 > 0:30:16This is undoubtedly a good thing, but it has raised the expectation
0:30:16 > 0:30:18that doctors not only can do something but should do something
0:30:18 > 0:30:20to prolong the life of a sick child.
0:30:20 > 0:30:23Some of these tragic cases are now ending up in the courts
0:30:23 > 0:30:26when the parents want the doctors to do more for their child than
0:30:26 > 0:30:31the doctors feel is right for them.
0:30:31 > 0:30:33Last year, Charlie Gard's parents lost their case against
0:30:33 > 0:30:34Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital.
0:30:34 > 0:30:37It caused a storm on Twitter and even garnered support
0:30:37 > 0:30:44from President Trump and Pope Francis.
0:30:44 > 0:30:45Last week, one-year-old Isaiah Haastrup died
0:30:45 > 0:30:47when the European Court of Human Rights refused his parents'
0:30:47 > 0:30:49appeal to keep him on life support.
0:30:49 > 0:30:51And this week the case of 22-month-old brain-damaged
0:30:51 > 0:30:54Alfie Evans has been referred to the Supreme Court for a decision
0:30:54 > 0:30:59as to whether his life support can be turned off.
0:30:59 > 0:31:04On Thursday night,
0:31:04 > 0:31:06Channel 4 showed the first of two documentaries
0:31:06 > 0:31:09filmed at Southampton Children's Hospital
0:31:09 > 0:31:11Intensive Care Unit,
0:31:11 > 0:31:14where these difficult decisions have to be faced by parents,
0:31:14 > 0:31:18doctors and nurses every day.
0:31:18 > 0:31:20In this clip we meet Tallulah,
0:31:20 > 0:31:22who survived a very premature birth,
0:31:22 > 0:31:30and her dad, James.
0:31:35 > 0:31:39As a result of a premature birth, she cannot breathe for herself, she
0:31:39 > 0:31:43is kept alive on a life-support machine which breeds for her, it is
0:31:43 > 0:31:47uncertain if she will ever manage on her own or how her brain will
0:31:47 > 0:31:54develop.She was born at one lb, five years ago she would have been
0:31:54 > 0:31:59dead. She would not have had the machines to keep her alive. We don't
0:31:59 > 0:32:02know what ten years is going to hold, we don't know what tomorrow is
0:32:02 > 0:32:14going to hold. We just take every day as it comes.Well, hello, I was
0:32:14 > 0:32:17privileged to see a photograph of your daughter this morning, the most
0:32:17 > 0:32:23beautiful smile on her face, beautiful little girl, what has she
0:32:23 > 0:32:28been through?It has been ups and downs from the word go, we have been
0:32:28 > 0:32:32in hospital 26 months, we have only been home since November but we have
0:32:32 > 0:32:38been told she won't make it, she will make it, it is working, it is
0:32:38 > 0:32:42not working, in and out of comas... I could not have expected this at
0:32:42 > 0:32:46the start, I did not know anything like this could happen to children
0:32:46 > 0:32:52so young, until I was in the situation. And then we are coping
0:32:52 > 0:32:57with it each day now.What is she like?She has her own personality,
0:32:57 > 0:33:04she loves television, she claps and sings along. She dances along,
0:33:04 > 0:33:08sorry, two songs, she plays with her little sister. She interacts with me
0:33:08 > 0:33:14and Rhianna very well, she has a good quality of life. She is
0:33:14 > 0:33:20enjoying her time at home.Was it right that yesterday, she was making
0:33:20 > 0:33:24noises along to the Teletubbies? Yes, she cannot quite speak, she
0:33:24 > 0:33:34kind of croaks, almost squeaks, but she does try to sing along to it.
0:33:34 > 0:33:40And she has a track your to me, for her life support?Yes, straight into
0:33:40 > 0:33:47her throat, and 24-hour care, so we have had two nights of cancelled
0:33:47 > 0:33:51carers, so we have been up to nights, pretty much, and then work,
0:33:51 > 0:33:57and then here today.Thank you so much for coming. On the programme,
0:33:57 > 0:34:03some tough bits, apart from seeing these beautiful children, and
0:34:03 > 0:34:06focusing on the moral and ethical issues, one particular one of those,
0:34:06 > 0:34:12which was raised, was by some of the doctors about resources. And the
0:34:12 > 0:34:18amount of money that it costs to keep some of these children live.
0:34:18 > 0:34:21Given the fact that there is a finite amount of money and other
0:34:21 > 0:34:26children are not getting the support they might get, who might have a
0:34:26 > 0:34:30better chance of survival. Such a difficult subject to broach, doctors
0:34:30 > 0:34:35were tiptoeing towards it, when you hear that debate, do you find it
0:34:35 > 0:34:44callous, in a way?Everything does cost, so all these machines do cost
0:34:44 > 0:34:48a lot of money to run, but no one can put a price on a family member
0:34:48 > 0:34:55to live. At the end of the day, you have little bits and bobs that she
0:34:55 > 0:35:00will use every day that is quite pricey, but it is all worth it. She
0:35:00 > 0:35:06has a good quality of life. There is no one that should live over someone
0:35:06 > 0:35:13else. It doesn't work like that.It needs to be addressed, but then
0:35:13 > 0:35:18there is other places, such as resources going out to people having
0:35:18 > 0:35:23gastric bands fitted, Friday and Saturday night down pubs and clubs,
0:35:23 > 0:35:30the Ambulance Service there.All of them that are self-inflicted. And
0:35:30 > 0:35:35these children do not ask to be ill. So, I don't know why we are
0:35:35 > 0:35:40questioning the money going out to the children. They don't ask for any
0:35:40 > 0:35:48of this help or care, they are the ones getting it.APPLAUSE
0:35:51 > 0:35:57Peter, you featured in the programme, Dr Peta Coulson-Smith,
0:35:57 > 0:36:03University of Southampton, clinical ethics, James was so articulate with
0:36:03 > 0:36:06that, and any of us would do anything we possibly could to extend
0:36:06 > 0:36:12the life of our child in that situation, various different
0:36:12 > 0:36:15situations, what about this debate about resources, which comes up
0:36:15 > 0:36:20again and again and again, people like you, tiptoeing towards it, but
0:36:20 > 0:36:26you also say it is important to discuss it, why is it important?I
0:36:26 > 0:36:34think there are no easy answers in any of this debate. As a doctor, as
0:36:34 > 0:36:40a paediatrician, at the bedside, resources do not come into the
0:36:40 > 0:36:44equation, the NHS, the beauty of the NHS is that it is free at the point
0:36:44 > 0:36:49of delivery. Really, I think part of the issue is the fact we cannot talk
0:36:49 > 0:36:53about it in the hospitals. It is something that has to happen at a
0:36:53 > 0:37:00national and political level, and we need to have strategies to develop
0:37:00 > 0:37:05answers about this. The costs are increasing...Three quarters of a
0:37:05 > 0:37:11million, that is the cost.For somebody with long-term ventilation
0:37:11 > 0:37:17with a track your to me, as you mentioned, around £500,000 a year.
0:37:17 > 0:37:24And that is for basic care. If the child then needed hospitalisation on
0:37:24 > 0:37:30top of that, for a chest infection, for instance, there would be another
0:37:30 > 0:37:37cost as well. It is a really difficult conversation. It is
0:37:37 > 0:37:43something we as doctors
0:37:44 > 0:37:47something we as doctors and as ethicsists to not have answers, the
0:37:47 > 0:37:51only way to do it is to have discussions, that is why this
0:37:51 > 0:37:59programme has been so great to highlight this. -- ethicists.One of
0:37:59 > 0:38:03the things that people are saying is that there are children not being
0:38:03 > 0:38:07treated who may have a better prognosis, and they are not being
0:38:07 > 0:38:12treated because some are, is that a fact?It is difficult to answer that
0:38:12 > 0:38:16in a sense, because there is no direct consequence, when you are
0:38:16 > 0:38:21delivering treatment for a child, on an intensive care unit, there is no
0:38:21 > 0:38:27direct consequence that you can see as a doctor, but there is a
0:38:27 > 0:38:32consequence, of course, that those resources are being used for
0:38:32 > 0:38:39something which is not going to another area. And it feels quite
0:38:39 > 0:38:43callous, speaking about it, in financial terms, and I just think
0:38:43 > 0:38:48that it is something that we all need to discuss and think about,
0:38:48 > 0:38:52where we want NHS resources to go, because what we are talking about is
0:38:52 > 0:38:57a subgroup of children, a very small amount of children, that we are
0:38:57 > 0:39:01talking about here. The numbers have doubled, approximately, in the last
0:39:01 > 0:39:07ten years, of children having long-term ventilation.Should
0:39:07 > 0:39:12doctors decide, all parents?Whether to withdraw life-sustaining
0:39:12 > 0:39:19treatment? Ultimately, I think doctors to decide. But, the caveat
0:39:19 > 0:39:26to that is that the parents views are central to any decision that is
0:39:26 > 0:39:31made. It is a collaborative decision, it is something that
0:39:31 > 0:39:38nobody wants to talk about, it is something that is incredibly
0:39:38 > 0:39:40difficult, and the child's best interests are absolutely at the
0:39:40 > 0:39:51forefront of every decision that is made.
0:39:52 > 0:39:56Lubna, location or son had his life-support removed, did you feel
0:39:56 > 0:40:02that it was a collaborative decision?My son was five months old
0:40:02 > 0:40:06when he passed away, when he was two weeks old he got really sick, ended
0:40:06 > 0:40:11up having an operation, at that point they said to me he will not
0:40:11 > 0:40:17make it, but he came back and he was OK. And I think, for them to say
0:40:17 > 0:40:23that to a parent, that your child is not going to make it, no one wants
0:40:23 > 0:40:28to hear that, no parent wants to hear that. But just before he got
0:40:28 > 0:40:32sick, the night before, I did say to them, he is not well. They did not
0:40:32 > 0:40:38listen to me. So the next day, when they did realise he was not well, it
0:40:38 > 0:40:46was quite late. But he was fine after his operation. He made it off
0:40:46 > 0:40:51the ventilator, as well, unfortunately, he went back on it.
0:40:51 > 0:40:56And when they said to me, he's not going to make it, and if he does,
0:40:56 > 0:41:00maybe he will be disabled, I said, well, that is my child. I don't
0:41:00 > 0:41:09care. I want him, do what you can. At that point I said, could I gather
0:41:09 > 0:41:13opinion from another doctor. But they refused, they said, you will
0:41:13 > 0:41:19get the same answer from everybody, which I thought was unfair. Because
0:41:19 > 0:41:23now, it is like, what if, what if someone said something different. It
0:41:23 > 0:41:27will always be there. I ended up losing my child, because they then
0:41:27 > 0:41:34decided that they were going to withdraw care. And we had to make a
0:41:34 > 0:41:40decision of what time and when. Which I don't think was fair,
0:41:40 > 0:41:46really, but, the doctors were brilliant, but sometimes they should
0:41:46 > 0:41:54listen to parents. I was his mother. As a mother, I know what my child is
0:41:54 > 0:42:01going through...And you understand, you are going to look after your son
0:42:01 > 0:42:06for the rest of his life am a you understand the invitations and
0:42:06 > 0:42:11consequences because you are going home with him.Yes.Do you think
0:42:11 > 0:42:20because of that, the decision should be with you?I think so, yes.What
0:42:20 > 0:42:24was the moment like, when there was nothing you could do...It is the
0:42:24 > 0:42:28worst thing that can happen to a parent, if they did give me an
0:42:28 > 0:42:33option of getting another opinion, and that opinion was the same as
0:42:33 > 0:42:37what they said, it would have made me feel better, does that make
0:42:37 > 0:42:46sense? But I did not get that option. So, for that, it is done
0:42:46 > 0:42:55now, but I will never forget, he's my baby. And I got five months with
0:42:55 > 0:43:00him, that will never be enough for any parent, it is the worst thing
0:43:00 > 0:43:07that a mother can go through.
0:43:07 > 0:43:11that a mother can go through. I think a parent should get that
0:43:11 > 0:43:16chance, they should decide what happens with their child, basically.
0:43:16 > 0:43:25Always?Of course.Steph Nimmo, Daisy had her life-support removed,
0:43:25 > 0:43:30seven years old.She was 12 when she had the life-support removed. Seven
0:43:30 > 0:43:34years old when she was referred to palliative care. She was born with a
0:43:34 > 0:43:39really rare genetic disease, we did not know prenatally that she would
0:43:39 > 0:43:42have this.Who should have the decision? Let me start at that
0:43:42 > 0:43:47question.I was lucky, I had a lot longer with my daughter, and she
0:43:47 > 0:43:52took us to the edge, many times, but because we were referred to
0:43:52 > 0:44:00palliative care very early on, there was, as Peta said, there was
0:44:00 > 0:44:04collaborative conversations, because much of it is so difficult, you have
0:44:04 > 0:44:13to take the emotion out of it. I was Daisy's mother.Who can do that?It
0:44:13 > 0:44:15is impossible, you have to bring down a barrier because you
0:44:15 > 0:44:19desperately want to do the right thing for your child and some time,
0:44:19 > 0:44:22doing the right thing for your tile is actually being incredibly
0:44:22 > 0:44:27selfless and letting them go. And how can a parent make that decision
0:44:27 > 0:44:33on their own? And didn't fact, I was on my own at the end, my husband had
0:44:33 > 0:44:37died before Daisy died, so during all this journey, I was living with
0:44:37 > 0:44:42this child that I knew was going to die, then my husband died. And I was
0:44:42 > 0:44:46aware that I was going to come to this... If I had not been surrounded
0:44:46 > 0:44:49by an incredible team of professionals, and we could talk
0:44:49 > 0:44:52through in the cold light of day what would happen, what would it be
0:44:52 > 0:44:58like? Daisy was on a form of life-support called total parental
0:44:58 > 0:45:02nutrition, she received all her nutrition intravenously, through a
0:45:02 > 0:45:07line into her bloodstream, 24/7, and she was very aware of what was going
0:45:07 > 0:45:11on, although she had a learning disability, she had an incredible
0:45:11 > 0:45:17quality of life, she had opinions on things, she lived a very joyful
0:45:17 > 0:45:21life, but I had always said to her palliative consultant, when those
0:45:21 > 0:45:24moments get compressed, when the moments of joy gets compressed, I
0:45:24 > 0:45:28know that we are coming to the end, and... But we just did not know when
0:45:28 > 0:45:33the end would be. As it was, it happened quite quickly. For me, she
0:45:33 > 0:45:37had a cardiac arrest, the doctors said, we can keep resuscitating pots
0:45:37 > 0:45:43are on dialysis... I said, no, we have two let her go. -- keep
0:45:43 > 0:45:49resuscitating, put her on dialysis.
0:45:50 > 0:45:54I feel in many ways I was fortunate because I had a lot longer with her,
0:45:54 > 0:45:58but I also had many opportunities to have very difficult conversations
0:45:58 > 0:46:02with the palliative team, the team who cared for her and grew to know
0:46:02 > 0:46:05as both, at the end I felt it was very much a collaborative decision,
0:46:05 > 0:46:10it was just the right thing to do for my child in the end.That they
0:46:10 > 0:46:15must have been awful?It was horrific. I was on my own, three
0:46:15 > 0:46:23other children who had
0:46:23 > 0:46:25other children who had already gone through a huge loss of their dad.
0:46:25 > 0:46:28But in a way I feel that I gave my daughter a good death. We had
0:46:28 > 0:46:31prepared for it, we had planned for it. She was in pain and we let her
0:46:31 > 0:46:36go. People ask if I would have her back, no, because she would still be
0:46:36 > 0:46:38in pain, still deteriorating, she would no longer have the
0:46:38 > 0:46:42quality-of-life that she had. She had an amazing 12 years and gave as
0:46:42 > 0:46:47an amazing 12 years, and thanks to the NHS who kept her alive. When she
0:46:47 > 0:46:51was first born we were told she would probably not see a year, she
0:46:51 > 0:46:58gave as 12 incredible years and taught us so much about ourselves. I
0:46:58 > 0:47:03felt it was her time, but, as I say, the support of excellent palliative
0:47:03 > 0:47:06care team allowed us... Allowed me to be at peace with that decision at
0:47:06 > 0:47:12the end, which was incredibly important.But we can so much
0:47:12 > 0:47:16understand Lubna 's situation, which is different.There is no right or
0:47:16 > 0:47:22wrong. I think it is really important that we have these
0:47:22 > 0:47:25conversations and we reflect that actually sometimes children do not
0:47:25 > 0:47:31make it out of the neonatal unit. Medical prop -- medical science, I
0:47:31 > 0:47:34think the doctor says in the programme we can keep them alive but
0:47:34 > 0:47:38not cure them.What about the situation we brought up earlier and
0:47:38 > 0:47:42Peter acknowledged, such a delicate area and we want to tread so
0:47:42 > 0:47:46carefully, quite properly and rightly, because that whole issue of
0:47:46 > 0:47:55NHS resources... As I say it now it is a difficult thing to say. What
0:47:55 > 0:48:01are your thoughts? I only say it because the doctors in the programme
0:48:01 > 0:48:05wants people to discuss it.And I absolutely empathise with those
0:48:05 > 0:48:09doctors, I thought the programme was brilliant because the doctors don't
0:48:09 > 0:48:13get the opportunity to show their point of view, with all the social
0:48:13 > 0:48:17media and the publicity around these big cases of the doctors are not
0:48:17 > 0:48:21allowed to comment. I think it is really interesting for us to see the
0:48:21 > 0:48:25dilemmas the doctors have, because they absolutely car. But their hands
0:48:25 > 0:48:34are tied, they have pressures. We all know there is
0:48:36 > 0:48:38all know there is huge pressure on intensive care beds. Time and time
0:48:38 > 0:48:40again, Daisy would be scheduled the surgery, she always needed intensive
0:48:40 > 0:48:44care after surgery, that there would be no bed available and so the
0:48:44 > 0:48:47surgery would be cancelled because it is such a specialised area.There
0:48:47 > 0:48:51was a great quote from one of the doctors which summed it up
0:48:51 > 0:48:54amazingly, he said very quietly and very thoughtfully and there was a
0:48:54 > 0:48:59lot of sadness when he said our capacity to support life now exceeds
0:48:59 > 0:49:06our ability to treat the underlying disease.That is exactly it. Well we
0:49:06 > 0:49:10are making incredible advances in medical science, what we are not
0:49:10 > 0:49:16catching up with is what we do want these children leave.And it raises
0:49:16 > 0:49:20the expectations of parents. Peter, I do not know if you have a view,
0:49:20 > 0:49:25the new phenomenon in this, the social media campaigns, very often
0:49:25 > 0:49:30the involvement of religious groups, social media campaigns. -- Peta, I
0:49:30 > 0:49:34do not know if you have a view. President Trump got involved. Does
0:49:34 > 0:49:40it cloud the issue?It makes it so difficult for the parents. I put a
0:49:40 > 0:49:43lot of trust and faith in the medical team that surrounded me. It
0:49:43 > 0:49:46is like when you're pregnant, everybody wants to give you an
0:49:46 > 0:49:50opinion on what you should and should not do. You open up to the
0:49:50 > 0:49:55world stage and the poor parents stuck in the middle, you lose sight
0:49:55 > 0:50:02of what is the right thing to do, the emotion takes over.Charlie
0:50:02 > 0:50:08Gard, some of the medics there, the medical practitioners, had death
0:50:08 > 0:50:12threats?The false hope that comes through from the social media
0:50:12 > 0:50:18campaigns is unbelievable. As you know, it is a long process and you
0:50:18 > 0:50:23know absolutely everything that is going on. People in social media do
0:50:23 > 0:50:27not know the ins and outs. The doctors... I could not ask for
0:50:27 > 0:50:31better care, I could not asked to be informed more. But this false hope,
0:50:31 > 0:50:35people putting in their two Panis, it is giving a dream that is not
0:50:35 > 0:50:40even bear in the first place, that is why it is such a disgusting
0:50:40 > 0:50:45treatment of the Paris -- everybody is putting in their 2p worth. I do
0:50:45 > 0:50:49not think it should be done. Individual family should be kept in
0:50:49 > 0:50:54the circle they are in. Be informed as much as they ran and can't -- as
0:50:54 > 0:50:58much as they are and come to a decision and a way forward, just
0:50:58 > 0:51:04them.Yeah. APPLAUSE
0:51:04 > 0:51:08Dr MacKenzie Graham, I want to discuss with you this issue about
0:51:08 > 0:51:12what is a quality of life? Where do we set the bar? Because if
0:51:12 > 0:51:22a little child has a tactile world of cuddles and smiles but can't
0:51:22 > 0:51:26communicate and has tubes, that is a quality of life for a human being?
0:51:26 > 0:51:31In a certain respect we might think that some of these young children...
0:51:31 > 0:51:35Maybe their capacity for well-being is diminished compared to what a
0:51:35 > 0:51:39perfectly healthy Child could experience, but you are right.
0:51:39 > 0:51:42Unless it is a life of complete suffering there is certainly some
0:51:42 > 0:51:48value. Just being held by the parents, they can feel tactile
0:51:48 > 0:51:54pleasure. Things like that. Back contributes to value. I wanted to
0:51:54 > 0:52:00remark on something like Peta said, the best interests of the child are
0:52:00 > 0:52:07foremost. That is a values question, to me, and I think that discussion
0:52:07 > 0:52:12needs to happen between physicians and parents, because physicians will
0:52:12 > 0:52:16be the authority on clinical facts, here's what you can expect with
0:52:16 > 0:52:20respect to what your child's life will be like. But I think it is up
0:52:20 > 0:52:26to the parents to determine what they feel, according to their own
0:52:26 > 0:52:31values, what is necessary for their child's quality of life, because we
0:52:31 > 0:52:38will each judge that differently. Because the parents have to support
0:52:38 > 0:52:42the children, you guys are under a tremendous burden. I get the sense
0:52:42 > 0:52:48that maybe you were not quite sure...It is not a burden, it is
0:52:48 > 0:52:51our daughter, I don't like that word. No, but there is so much
0:52:51 > 0:53:02stress. It is so hard on a daily basis. I have to... I have two
0:53:02 > 0:53:06daughters, one of which is disabled. My other half is the carer in the
0:53:06 > 0:53:11daytime. I have to work a lot, support them all, plus we had to go
0:53:11 > 0:53:15with the other factors in this thing. It is such a hard thing to do
0:53:15 > 0:53:19on a daily basis, so I can see some people that might not be able to
0:53:19 > 0:53:22cope. They had to think of the bigger picture and how they will be
0:53:22 > 0:53:31in two years when you go home. Like I said, our carers cancelled on is
0:53:31 > 0:53:34the last two nights. No one but me and Rhianna will have to stay awake
0:53:34 > 0:53:37to look after her. Once you are out of hospital you are very much on
0:53:37 > 0:53:41your own, that is where Rick gets hard.If I can, when we are talking
0:53:41 > 0:53:46about what is the best interests of a child, that is an extremely high
0:53:46 > 0:53:50standard, doing the best possible for a child. You have your other
0:53:50 > 0:53:54children to consider so there will be trade-offs between interests.
0:53:54 > 0:54:01Providing the child is not suffering an unacceptable level of harm, if we
0:54:01 > 0:54:05think of it in terms...What if the child is suffering and the doctors
0:54:05 > 0:54:09say this is terrible, but the parents want the child to stay
0:54:09 > 0:54:13alive?I think that is where the threshold is. I am not a parent but
0:54:13 > 0:54:17based on what I am hearing I can imagine that parents feel like this
0:54:17 > 0:54:22is my child, I need to do everything I can for this child because that is
0:54:22 > 0:54:30my responsibility, I love this child.If I were in that situation,
0:54:30 > 0:54:34it would take some convincing.It can make it very difficult to remain
0:54:34 > 0:54:38as objective as you can in emotionally fraught situations like
0:54:38 > 0:54:42this. Provided there is not this level of suffering, it is up to the
0:54:42 > 0:54:46parents. But sometimes it needs to be taken out of the hands of the
0:54:46 > 0:54:54parents if the child is suffering. As a leading politician, Caroline,
0:54:54 > 0:54:58does the debate about NHS resources and how much we put into the NHS and
0:54:58 > 0:55:06how much we prioritise that politically come into that?I think
0:55:06 > 0:55:09it has to somewhere. It is an incredibly difficult conversation,
0:55:09 > 0:55:13even more difficult when you are talking about specific cases rather
0:55:13 > 0:55:17than more of an academic discussion, but it has to come into it
0:55:17 > 0:55:26somewhere. I think in terms of the process, what Steph was describing
0:55:26 > 0:55:30of the collaboration between hospital staff and parents, that
0:55:30 > 0:55:34needs to be strived for. But if parents are disagreeing with the
0:55:34 > 0:55:38medical profession over the future of the Child and if we are to put
0:55:38 > 0:55:41the well-being of the child and the rights of the child at the heart,
0:55:41 > 0:55:49then sometimes I can see the role of the courts. I know this seems to be
0:55:49 > 0:55:57very callous, but it is enormously difficult. Sometimes it is the right
0:55:57 > 0:56:04time to say goodbye and it is kinder to let go. For a parent to make that
0:56:04 > 0:56:10choice on the road is immensely difficult. We are not in a world of
0:56:10 > 0:56:13black-and-white, these are judgments, shades of grey, they are
0:56:13 > 0:56:17difficult, it is not just good guys and bad guys, as you would hear on
0:56:17 > 0:56:21social media. Everybody is trying to do their best for your child. If
0:56:21 > 0:56:24there was a disagreement between the parents and the medical staff than I
0:56:24 > 0:56:27think we should take it to the courts.I think one of the doctors
0:56:27 > 0:56:33said I would of course fight tooth and nail to keep my child alive, but
0:56:33 > 0:56:37I would want the doctors to make the decision.I was just going to say
0:56:37 > 0:56:43that I feel really sad to hear that your experience was not this
0:56:43 > 0:56:49collaborative approach and that you feel like that decision... You were
0:56:49 > 0:56:55not really part of that decision. I would say that on the whole we get
0:56:55 > 0:57:00it right, and I would say that on the whole people are involved and
0:57:00 > 0:57:04that was your experience.Do you think the social media campaigns
0:57:04 > 0:57:09with false distrust of doctors, and suspicion?I really do. I think the
0:57:09 > 0:57:13medical profession has been very much demonised over the last few
0:57:13 > 0:57:16years and that is why we embarked on this programme with great
0:57:16 > 0:57:21trepidation. We did not want to compound that in any way. But I
0:57:21 > 0:57:27think what it shows is a very balanced view of children and
0:57:27 > 0:57:35agreeing procedures, tracking changes and some of the changes that
0:57:35 > 0:57:38the parents, nursing staff and doctors experience with these
0:57:38 > 0:57:47children. I have seen lots of campaign where there are headlines
0:57:47 > 0:57:52such as Give The Child A Chance. What you do not see is what the
0:57:52 > 0:57:56level of suffering is. We do not see the individual case. James said
0:57:56 > 0:58:04really nicely earlier about we need to see each child individually,
0:58:04 > 0:58:08their own circumstances, situations, family setup, everything.As
0:58:08 > 0:58:12Caroline said, not the black and white. Thank you all so much for
0:58:12 > 0:58:18coming in and speaking so honestly, it is such an important debate. I...
0:58:18 > 0:58:21I will never forget that picture you showed me a trailer this morning
0:58:21 > 0:58:26with the snow behind her and such a big, beaming, beautiful smile. She
0:58:26 > 0:58:30is such a beautiful little girl. Thank you very much indeed, James.
0:58:30 > 0:58:32As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.
0:58:32 > 0:58:35Next week we're in Glasgow, so do join us then.
0:58:35 > 0:58:37But for now, it's goodbye and have a great Sunday.
0:58:37 > 0:58:47Thank you so much for watching. That was your Big Questions.