0:00:06 > 0:00:08Today on The Big Questions...
0:00:08 > 0:00:12The perils of flirting at work, the right to asylum
0:00:12 > 0:00:19for persecuted Christians, and raising property taxes.
0:00:29 > 0:00:35APPLAUSE Good to see you.
0:00:35 > 0:00:36Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38Today, we're live from Appleton Academy in Bradford.
0:00:38 > 0:00:41Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
0:00:41 > 0:00:48APPLAUSE
0:00:48 > 0:00:51Last Sunday night, the Golden Globes Award ceremony
0:00:51 > 0:00:58was a sea of black as the nominees and star-studded audience
0:00:59 > 0:01:01displayed their support of the Time's Up campaign
0:01:01 > 0:01:02against sexual harassment.
0:01:02 > 0:01:06But in France, they see things rather differently.
0:01:06 > 0:01:08100 French women, led by the actress Catherine Deneuve, dubbed the MeToo
0:01:08 > 0:01:10campaign puritanism fuelled by hatred of men.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13All they did was touch a knee, try to steal a kiss or talk
0:01:13 > 0:01:17about intimate matters.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20We defend a right to pester, which is vital to sexual freedom.
0:01:20 > 0:01:22Most of us know there is a line between flirting
0:01:22 > 0:01:24and sexual harassment, but not everyone draws
0:01:24 > 0:01:25it in the same place.
0:01:25 > 0:01:29And new guidelines for employers issued by the Equality
0:01:29 > 0:01:33and Human Rights Commission make clear unwanted conduct does not need
0:01:33 > 0:01:35to be directed at the person offended but can just be
0:01:35 > 0:01:39witnessed or overheard.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42Jokes, looks, gestures, discussing your sex life
0:01:42 > 0:01:44with someone else, intrusive questions or direct propositions
0:01:44 > 0:01:47are all potentially unlawful sexual harassment.
0:01:47 > 0:01:55Is time up for flirting at work?
0:01:55 > 0:02:01Solicitor, Nick Freeman, puritanism, are you worried we are entering very
0:02:01 > 0:02:05difficult terrain here?Yes, I think we are about to embark upon
0:02:05 > 0:02:10immediate reaction to what is happening in Hollywood. Flirting is
0:02:10 > 0:02:14very healthy, part of our natural dynamic and to take that away from
0:02:14 > 0:02:19us destroys part of who we are. Flirting has a very specific
0:02:19 > 0:02:23definition and it is something that is playful, not serious. I accept we
0:02:23 > 0:02:27need to be sympathetic on the effect it has on the person directed to the
0:02:27 > 0:02:32people around us but it stimulates, energises and more people meet and
0:02:32 > 0:02:36marry in the workplace as a consequence of flirting than
0:02:36 > 0:02:40anywhere else. For example, it is much safer than meeting somebody
0:02:40 > 0:02:46online. That is a very healthy way of establishing a relationship. You
0:02:46 > 0:02:50see their true self, someone under pressure, you have time with them
0:02:50 > 0:02:54and you can then assess underside, do I want to have a relationship
0:02:54 > 0:03:02with that person? -- and decide. The statistics, 14% of people get
0:03:02 > 0:03:07married from meeting at the workplace. And those marriages are
0:03:07 > 0:03:11much happier.It is a very important... It is important,
0:03:11 > 0:03:15playful, innocent, that is what you're saying.Harassment is
0:03:15 > 0:03:28something is sinister, it is a criminal offence.Who disagrees with
0:03:28 > 0:03:34that? There is a clear line?I actually agree with some of what
0:03:34 > 0:03:40Nick has said. Harassment and flirting or two separate matters
0:03:40 > 0:03:46completely. The MeToo campaign was born out of the Harvey Weinstein
0:03:46 > 0:03:53scandal, unwanted sexual harassment and advances within the workplace
0:03:53 > 0:03:56and out as well, why are we conflating the issues? We know what
0:03:56 > 0:04:04flirting is and it is innocent and banter, Nick said, it makes but they
0:04:04 > 0:04:09go quicker, but we are talking about harassment, the fact women have not
0:04:09 > 0:04:15been able to come forward in the years, decades, whatever, and now
0:04:15 > 0:04:18there is a real movement, an opportunity for women and men as
0:04:18 > 0:04:22well who have been victims of harassment to come forward and tell
0:04:22 > 0:04:26the world what has happened. The fact we have only been able to
0:04:26 > 0:04:31scratch the surface with people using the #MeToo, there will be
0:04:31 > 0:04:35millions more across the world who will now be able to come forward and
0:04:35 > 0:04:42tell the world what has happened to them.Many people have had concerns
0:04:42 > 0:04:46that the line between sexual harassment and flirting is rather
0:04:46 > 0:04:52ambiguous and can be subjective.But we test this. Angela is here to talk
0:04:52 > 0:04:57specifically about this. Working in an office, if I said you had a nice
0:04:57 > 0:05:06bum.I would wonder when your next optician appointment was! I would
0:05:06 > 0:05:12say, you are looking particularly gorgeous this morning. I would
0:05:12 > 0:05:17preface my comments by saying, the goalposts are very movable. There
0:05:17 > 0:05:20was a fizzy drinks campaign predicated on the notion a bunch of
0:05:20 > 0:05:26women stood at the window and watched the window cleaner get his
0:05:26 > 0:05:30kit off and have his fizzy drink. I get offended if I walk past a
0:05:30 > 0:05:35building site and they do not wolf whistle. I say, shall we do that
0:05:35 > 0:05:40again? In all seriousness, there is a big difference with women. I
0:05:40 > 0:05:44agree, we should not conflate the two. There is a difference between
0:05:44 > 0:05:48sexual objectification and persistent unwanted attention. Some
0:05:48 > 0:05:52of the offences people have been accused of have been so lightweight,
0:05:52 > 0:05:58the grazing of a hand on the knee, calling somebody gorgeous, it
0:05:58 > 0:06:02energises the workplace, like Nick says. I do not want to live in a
0:06:02 > 0:06:06dull world where men and women cannot talk to each other. Women are
0:06:06 > 0:06:10quite canny as well. If a really attractive man flirts with her in
0:06:10 > 0:06:15the office and says nice things, that is flirtation. If it is a fat
0:06:15 > 0:06:23old buffer...It is someone touching your knee flirting?It depends who
0:06:23 > 0:06:31it is. If you have a really nice looking man who grazes his hand on
0:06:31 > 0:06:35your knee and maintains eye contact, that is flirting. If you are
0:06:35 > 0:06:4116-year-old girl and a man in his 50s does that, far more powerful, it
0:06:41 > 0:06:47is inappropriate. We cannot be prospective.Abdullah. A number of
0:06:47 > 0:06:55studies have shown that for 30 years the perception of sexual harassment,
0:06:55 > 0:07:00defined as unwanted romantic or sexual advances, it varies depending
0:07:00 > 0:07:05on the attractiveness of the person instigating it. The problem is, when
0:07:05 > 0:07:11you define it as unwanted romantic or sexual advances, you are
0:07:11 > 0:07:14expecting people to be psychic, to know whether there advances are
0:07:14 > 0:07:18wanted before they make it which is a problem. It stems from, my
0:07:18 > 0:07:26personal critique, of sexual
0:07:26 > 0:07:28personal critique, of sexual -- secular liberal societies, you do
0:07:28 > 0:07:34not have defined... Since Victorian times, you had a bit more
0:07:34 > 0:07:38conservative values in the UK, for example, in the middle and upper
0:07:38 > 0:07:45classes.Better morals?Not necessarily, but in terms of social
0:07:45 > 0:07:48decorum in the UK among middle and upper classes, it was different.
0:07:48 > 0:07:55Women knew their place. In Victorian times.We are talking about social
0:07:55 > 0:07:59etiquette and decorum. Why do you always have to turn it, whenever the
0:07:59 > 0:08:04religious person is speaking? Women's place was different in
0:08:04 > 0:08:11Victorian times.What is going on, what with things like, not in
0:08:11 > 0:08:15Victorian times, back in maybe the 60s?The 60s, the days of
0:08:15 > 0:08:20miniskirts.
0:08:20 > 0:08:25miniskirts. You you just stirred and admired and days of typing pools as
0:08:25 > 0:08:29well and loads of girls and I worked in the West End for a while, it was
0:08:29 > 0:08:35a wonderful time. But the difference between flirtation of course and
0:08:35 > 0:08:40sexual harassment is the difference between ping-pong and Rugby Football
0:08:40 > 0:08:46League not the same thing at all. Going back to Victorian times, the
0:08:46 > 0:08:52lady would have a fan, flirtation with the fan. A wonderful way of
0:08:52 > 0:09:00getting together.They code.A wonderful code. We all agreed
0:09:00 > 0:09:05flirting is a good thing otherwise no woman would ever get asked out to
0:09:05 > 0:09:10dinner, you have to get through the flirting, cannot suddenly say, would
0:09:10 > 0:09:13you like to come out to dinner tonight, I promise not to touch your
0:09:13 > 0:09:20knee? One very quick thing, I would be interested to have the view of
0:09:20 > 0:09:23the panel, I was attached to the Royal Navy at sea on HMS Illustrious
0:09:23 > 0:09:29and when women went to see, the Royal Navy came in with the no
0:09:29 > 0:09:32touching rule which is quite definitive and you can work that
0:09:32 > 0:09:37out, it is not airy-fairy like the Equality Commission nonsense. I have
0:09:37 > 0:09:43never heard so much nonsense.You are so politically correct, Godfrey.
0:09:43 > 0:09:49No touching rule. That is the rule. It works for the Royal Navy. I think
0:09:49 > 0:09:55it would work in the office.If the definition of sexual harassment is
0:09:55 > 0:09:58unwanted sexual advances, not touching necessarily. We all agree
0:09:58 > 0:10:06it is wrong and criminal.Some women like it.It is the unwanted advances
0:10:06 > 0:10:15which causes the ambiguity.If it is unwanted, it is a criminal act. You
0:10:15 > 0:10:18cannot have the wishy-washy nonsense from the commission. Totally
0:10:18 > 0:10:25subjective. That will cause trouble. Angela. I will be with you in a
0:10:25 > 0:10:30second, Susie. Some women like it? There is a whole culture of
0:10:30 > 0:10:35predatory... We are generalising, a lot of broad terms. Nobody deserves
0:10:35 > 0:10:39to be sexually objectified or harassed. Accept that as given, the
0:10:39 > 0:10:45law is clear. But there are women whose stay is enlightened,
0:10:45 > 0:10:51invigorated, by the attention of other men -- day. There is a whole
0:10:51 > 0:10:56cohort of predatory women who enjoy exerting their chemical, hormonal,
0:10:56 > 0:11:00sexual, call it what you will, influence. I was in an office that
0:11:00 > 0:11:05other week, young chap, late 20s, I had not been in for few weeks, I
0:11:05 > 0:11:09said, hello, you are looking gorgeous, did you have a lovely
0:11:09 > 0:11:14Christmas? I like your jacket. I am not so much more powerful than him,
0:11:14 > 0:11:21I am older, just, but the fact is, women seem to have... There is
0:11:21 > 0:11:27latitude where women are concerned. We have to have a more level playing
0:11:27 > 0:11:33field.You say some women like it and OK, some women do. But not
0:11:33 > 0:11:39everyone does. The bottom line is that if you are making a comment at
0:11:39 > 0:11:44someone, there is a potential chance it might make them feel
0:11:44 > 0:11:47uncomfortable, just do not do it. In the workplace, we are all adults, we
0:11:47 > 0:11:53are not teenagers. If you are going to say something that might
0:11:53 > 0:11:57potentially... You do not know what previous experiences that person may
0:11:57 > 0:12:01have had that may warrant them to become uncomfortable, and if you are
0:12:01 > 0:12:05going to say something...If they had just lost their dog the week
0:12:05 > 0:12:11before, you say, I'm having a dog's life at the moment, it be upsetting.
0:12:11 > 0:12:15We have to be empathetic. We have to be aware of the effect of what we
0:12:15 > 0:12:19say and do has on the other person. If someone suggest something
0:12:19 > 0:12:23slightly inappropriate to you and you show it is inappropriate, they
0:12:23 > 0:12:29should immediately picked up on it and say, sorry, move on.Not every
0:12:29 > 0:12:34person feels in a place to do that. Sometimes someone might make a
0:12:34 > 0:12:38comment, it might make them feel uncomfortable, not every person at
0:12:38 > 0:12:42the receiving end may feel in a position to say, hang on, that does
0:12:42 > 0:12:47not make me feel comfortable, can you not do that?Through the day, we
0:12:47 > 0:12:52will be uncomfortable sometimes. We will not die, fall over backwards.
0:12:52 > 0:12:56Sometimes we will be made to feel a little bit uncomfortable, we roll up
0:12:56 > 0:13:01our sleeves, get on with it.I saw some people wanting to talk.I
0:13:01 > 0:13:06cannot accept what you have just said. Nobody has a right to make
0:13:06 > 0:13:10another person feel uncomfortable and nobody has a right to say to
0:13:10 > 0:13:15another person, get over it, it is OK, take it like a man, completely
0:13:15 > 0:13:22unacceptable. If it is a genuine innocent mistake...Otherwise it
0:13:22 > 0:13:26would be harassment.I completely agree with you, Nick. The
0:13:26 > 0:13:30recommendation is, you could see it happening to somebody else and you
0:13:30 > 0:13:35could then reported, would you report it if you saw it happening?
0:13:35 > 0:13:39For me, sexual harassment is very subjective. What is sexual
0:13:39 > 0:13:43harassment for one person is not for another person and what outrages me
0:13:43 > 0:13:48might not upgrade somebody else. We have to keep that in mind. Going
0:13:48 > 0:13:52back to what Angela says, not every single woman wants to be sexually
0:13:52 > 0:13:57harassed and not every person enjoys the sexual attention. It is wrong to
0:13:57 > 0:14:00say things like this because you are giving the message, you are
0:14:00 > 0:14:10confusing...Listen, everybody. Angela, no.You are harassing me!I
0:14:10 > 0:14:15want to go to the audience. I am the sensitive flower here. Some ladies
0:14:15 > 0:14:20wanted to talk in the audience. Something Angela said, I saw you
0:14:20 > 0:14:26shifting in your seat, shaking your head.It was about the workplace and
0:14:26 > 0:14:32we are not teenagers. Well, my workplace has a lot of teenagers it
0:14:32 > 0:14:36is a college, and therefore, this is a difficult area for us because part
0:14:36 > 0:14:41of our job is helping those young people learn some of these
0:14:41 > 0:14:47boundaries before they get into the workplace. This is a more complex
0:14:47 > 0:14:54area for us. It is one we have to do a lot of observation, give a lot of
0:14:54 > 0:14:57feedback to students and deal with potentially very difficult issues. I
0:14:57 > 0:15:02feel that this debate needs to take into account that not everybody is
0:15:02 > 0:15:07good at picking up social cues. Not everybody understands where the
0:15:07 > 0:15:13boundaries are. We need to teach people how to say no in a nice way,
0:15:13 > 0:15:20in a way that respects the other person, but it is a very clear no.
0:15:20 > 0:15:26It is very difficult territory.It is.
0:15:26 > 0:15:31Good morning. As an employer, the last thing I want is a reduction in
0:15:31 > 0:15:35productivity because some of my employees don't want to come to
0:15:35 > 0:15:38washing because they're afraid of being harassed. My own personal
0:15:38 > 0:15:42moral values come into that. I wouldn't want to go around harassing
0:15:42 > 0:15:48people. I certainly don't want any of my employees to be harassed. But
0:15:48 > 0:15:54it is a minefield when it comes to this new equality legislation.What
0:15:54 > 0:15:58is acceptable flirting and compliments we're hearing about in
0:15:58 > 0:16:03the office which edge towards, to use an old fashioned word from the
0:16:03 > 0:16:07sixties, saucy. Is that all right in the office? Let this gentleman
0:16:07 > 0:16:12answer and isle' be with you.I think flirtation can be healthy. A
0:16:12 > 0:16:19flick of the hey a whiff of perfume as somebody's passing by or a brush
0:16:19 > 0:16:28of the shoulder is OK.I smelt your scent earlier on! LAUGHTER SKAPTS IT
0:16:28 > 0:16:35WAS VERY DELICIOUS.
0:16:35 > 0:16:39WAS VERY DELICIOUS.Harassment is not enjoyable.Isn't it allowing
0:16:39 > 0:16:42political cricketness to get out of hand? I've worked in offices all my
0:16:42 > 0:16:48life. I've seen people come in, ladies come in with a new hairstyle.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51I've said, you look nice today. Might have a new outfit. You look
0:16:51 > 0:16:55great. I've worked with young people and occasionally when they've come
0:16:55 > 0:16:59up with a really good way of dealing with a problem, I've said well done
0:16:59 > 0:17:05and touched them on the shoulder. What's wrong with that?There is
0:17:05 > 0:17:08nothing politically correct or incorrect about this. It is about
0:17:08 > 0:17:16humans treating each other with respect.Empathy, sensitivity.Was
0:17:16 > 0:17:23it lacking in respect to say they've a nice hair do?It's not
0:17:23 > 0:17:30disrespectful.It's get to that that stage.There should be different
0:17:30 > 0:17:32standards if you're significantly senior to other people in the work
0:17:32 > 0:17:37department. If you have the ability to influence that person's career,
0:17:37 > 0:17:40by definition, that person's potentially vulnerable or feel they
0:17:40 > 0:17:46could need to pretend things are OK when they don't.I've raised the
0:17:46 > 0:17:53morality issue. Mark, there are many things you are not on the same page
0:17:53 > 0:17:56as Abdullah on. Maybe there's some condition ex-here. You think one of
0:17:56 > 0:18:01the problems here is that men don't accept Christian teaching, no sex
0:18:01 > 0:18:07before Marge?That's right. You mentioned a caricature of life in a
0:18:07 > 0:18:12Victorian era which was by no means perfect and there was a hip ok Si.
0:18:12 > 0:18:21Sex was given its proper value in marriage. Today, we don't say sex it
0:18:21 > 0:18:28just for a man and a woman. It would mean our whole approach to flirting
0:18:28 > 0:18:32was much more nuanced. We need to get back to the bible's teaching. We
0:18:32 > 0:18:41can't do that. In Victorian era, the only way to live a truly Christian,
0:18:41 > 0:18:43God-pleasing life as Jesus Christ said, you have to be born again.
0:18:43 > 0:18:49With a new nature. The old nature, we see in people like Harvey
0:18:49 > 0:18:54Weinstein. The bible says we're all corrupt in our hearts. The way to
0:18:54 > 0:18:58avoid office flirtation is to go back to our Christian roots.No sex
0:18:58 > 0:19:03before marriage?No.You can't put handcuffs on natural communication
0:19:03 > 0:19:09and natural action. We're humans. And we're sensual animals?Exactly.
0:19:09 > 0:19:15It stimulates who we are. Once it crosses the line, it's not flirting.
0:19:15 > 0:19:20No sex after marriage is the problem!Speak for yourself.Did you
0:19:20 > 0:19:25say there's no sex after marriage, Godfrey?Too much information. Thank
0:19:25 > 0:19:33you.I'm trying to run the discussion here and concentrate.
0:19:33 > 0:19:39Susie, did introduce Susie.No-one is saying in this campaign no-one
0:19:39 > 0:19:44can flirt with each other in the office. I do agree with you on a
0:19:44 > 0:19:50level that there is nothing wrong with flirting. It's harmless. It
0:19:50 > 0:19:57doesn't even necessarily mean two people are necessarily wanting to
0:19:57 > 0:20:01take their relationship to another level. It is harmless interaction.
0:20:01 > 0:20:07But, there is a line between flirting and harassment. That line
0:20:07 > 0:20:12is, you know, subjective to every person. What makes one person feel
0:20:12 > 0:20:17uncomfortable may not for the next person. In that case, then, just
0:20:17 > 0:20:23don't do it. In termspIf in doubt? Yeah. If you're going to make a
0:20:23 > 0:20:31comment to someone think, oh, well, is that person giving me some sort
0:20:31 > 0:20:39of signal that might make me or means that comment is warranted?If
0:20:39 > 0:20:42I establish, how do you establish there is a mutual sexual interest?
0:20:42 > 0:20:48How do you establish that?Well, I think everyone's been in a position
0:20:48 > 0:20:53where you've had that mutual connection with someone or chemistry
0:20:53 > 0:21:00with someone and flirt something a natural bi-product?People
0:21:00 > 0:21:05misunderstand and misinterpret each other's cues all the time. It is be
0:21:05 > 0:21:09consistent. Either we ban all flirting in the public arena, remove
0:21:09 > 0:21:14sex from the public arena full stop or have a dedicated system of
0:21:14 > 0:21:22courtship. Or you allow flirting up to the point of criminality. Yeah?
0:21:22 > 0:21:28At least be consistent if you have this halfway position, you subject
0:21:28 > 0:21:32everyone to the unnoble interpretation of every other person
0:21:32 > 0:21:37based purely on how that other person interprets an initial advance
0:21:37 > 0:21:44not a repeat advance.That is exactly right.Listen, we're,
0:21:44 > 0:21:48there's two more debates. Plenty more time to express your opinion.
0:21:48 > 0:21:51You've had your hand up. One sentence from you on what you think
0:21:51 > 0:21:59about this. You will have the last word.There's the taboo of sexuality
0:21:59 > 0:22:03and a natural humanistic nature to be attracted to the opposite sex. We
0:22:03 > 0:22:07haven't discussed same sex flirtation. The campaign about
0:22:07 > 0:22:11speaking out is the parallel between speaking about flirting and then to
0:22:11 > 0:22:16the extreme about being abused and disclosure and that whole subject
0:22:16 > 0:22:20matter around disclosure and speaking out whether it be a male or
0:22:20 > 0:22:26female and the concept of culture, tradition and religion. There are
0:22:26 > 0:22:30traditional methods of flirting when you're wearing the hijab or burqa.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33There's a whole dynamic.We've about five debates worth in that. Thank
0:22:33 > 0:22:38you very much indeed. Thank you. APPLAUSE
0:22:38 > 0:22:41If you have something to say about that debate,
0:22:41 > 0:22:45logon to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and follow the link to where you can
0:22:45 > 0:22:47join in the discussion online.
0:22:47 > 0:22:49Or contribute on Twitter - #bbctbq.
0:22:49 > 0:22:51We're also debating live this morning at
0:22:51 > 0:22:53Bradford's Appleton Academy, should persecuted Christians
0:22:53 > 0:22:55jump the asylum queue?
0:22:55 > 0:22:59And would higher council taxes on empty and second homes be fair?
0:22:59 > 0:23:01So, get tweeting or emailing on those topics now,
0:23:01 > 0:23:04or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may
0:23:04 > 0:23:09have about the show.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11This week, the annual World Watch List of countries
0:23:11 > 0:23:14where Christians face religious persecution was published.
0:23:14 > 0:23:16It reports how over 200 million Christians worldwide
0:23:16 > 0:23:20are currently being beaten, killed, forcibly detained, denied
0:23:20 > 0:23:24education or job opportunities, having their children abducted,
0:23:24 > 0:23:28their churches and homes bombed and burned.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32North Korea, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan and Pakistan
0:23:32 > 0:23:34are the five worst offenders, but India is not far behind
0:23:34 > 0:23:37and Egypt has risen fast through the ranks this past year.
0:23:37 > 0:23:40Many of the countries listed have strong links to Britain
0:23:40 > 0:23:43through the Commonwealth or through our shared history.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46There have been calls to give priority to Christian refugees
0:23:46 > 0:23:47in America, by President Trump,
0:23:47 > 0:23:49and in Australia too.
0:23:49 > 0:23:56Should persecuted Christians jump the asylum queue?
0:23:56 > 0:24:01Mark Mullins, why should they? Everybody who has a risk to their
0:24:01 > 0:24:05life should be, as a result of their religious views, should be welcomed
0:24:05 > 0:24:10to this country. There is a problem though. If they support the very
0:24:10 > 0:24:15violence they're fleeing from they will bring trouble to our country.
0:24:15 > 0:24:22That's the problem we face. The way...What or who are you talking
0:24:22 > 0:24:29about?I'm talking about those, well, those who flee persecution by
0:24:29 > 0:24:33a religious group, it may be their own religious group. They may
0:24:33 > 0:24:35support violence to other religious groups. I don't really think I need
0:24:35 > 0:24:40to name them. We all know who they are because the debate's not about
0:24:40 > 0:24:46that. But it is about our own heritage. The reason we have such an
0:24:46 > 0:24:50open policy, and rightly have an open policy of tolerance to people
0:24:50 > 0:24:56of other faiths is because we go back to the middle ages where a man
0:24:56 > 0:25:00called William Tindell translated the bible because we...Are we still
0:25:00 > 0:25:06a Christian country?Can I quickly finish this point. As a result of
0:25:06 > 0:25:11his translation of the bible he was hunted down and killed in 1536. They
0:25:11 > 0:25:15couldn't keep the bible out of this country. As a result, over the next
0:25:15 > 0:25:22couple of centuries, the religious wars that ensued led to in 1689 The
0:25:22 > 0:25:26Glorious Revolution and a freedom of religion, the tolerance act in 1689.
0:25:26 > 0:25:33That was the beginning of freedom of religion for non-confirmist, dues,
0:25:33 > 0:25:37eventually for Roman Catholics and where we are today, that's based on
0:25:37 > 0:25:43our biblical heritage.That freedom should make us a special haven for
0:25:43 > 0:25:49all the God's children. Sorry pointing at you.I'll point back.
0:25:49 > 0:25:56Please do! Should we not prioritise atheists in Pakistan who are subject
0:25:56 > 0:26:01to the most disgusting blasphemy laws and are suffering so much?Do
0:26:01 > 0:26:04you mind if it... APPLAUSE
0:26:04 > 0:26:10Why not prioritise those people?Can I be political. Pakistan is where
0:26:10 > 0:26:13Christians, I know this first-hand, Christians are facing persecution.
0:26:13 > 0:26:18They are being shot for exercising...So are atheists.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21What's the difference?The door is shutting to Christians around the
0:26:21 > 0:26:27nation. That's because we know that from the Open Doors report. The
0:26:27 > 0:26:32reason you had this debate today. We need to make sure we keep an open
0:26:32 > 0:26:38door to Christians. As I said to you, anyone with religious views,
0:26:38 > 0:26:44including atheists who are genuinely facing a fear to their lives.But
0:26:44 > 0:26:49Christians first and foremost?We must not forget our duty.Our duty
0:26:49 > 0:26:55is to Christians.I'm a Pakistani. I'm Pauled at the record Pakistan
0:26:55 > 0:26:59holds being on that list in general. It is not just the Christian groups
0:26:59 > 0:27:05persecuted. Pakistan has a long history of persecuting anybody who
0:27:05 > 0:27:10doesn't fall into the main category. Even now, sitting here and
0:27:10 > 0:27:13criticising blasphemy laws, I could have a massive target on my head
0:27:13 > 0:27:18when I go to Pakistan next. It is very difficult to talk about. But we
0:27:18 > 0:27:26should be cheap as a place where people can come as a safe haven.
0:27:26 > 0:27:30We've a long history of persecuted minority groups coming here for safe
0:27:30 > 0:27:39haven. Some were turned away. The Jewish during the Holocaust. We have
0:27:39 > 0:27:42to actually look at the pigger picture here. We're living in a
0:27:42 > 0:27:48world where there's wars going on, persecution going on. There's a lot
0:27:48 > 0:27:53of sectarianism going on as well.It is about human beings not their
0:27:53 > 0:28:00particular...It is about human beings.Lisa, welcome to the big
0:28:00 > 0:28:05questions. Prince Charles spoke eloquently about this. The
0:28:05 > 0:28:09persecution suffered by Christians across the world is absolutely
0:28:09 > 0:28:15horrific. When it says, when any western minority says we are
0:28:15 > 0:28:20persecuted we hear it from Christians, Muslims, it gives light
0:28:20 > 0:28:24to the very word persecution. This is persecution. Shouldn't we
0:28:24 > 0:28:28prioritise these people?I think first of all, persecution of
0:28:28 > 0:28:32Christians is growing rapidly. The scale and severity is growing. We're
0:28:32 > 0:28:37having to monitor more countries in order to find the 50 where it is
0:28:37 > 0:28:42hardest which forms our World Watch List. That's across Asia, the Middle
0:28:42 > 0:28:47East and sub-Saharan Africa. We're there at village level withp
0:28:47 > 0:28:51communities and underground networks where to be a Christian. In North
0:28:51 > 0:29:00Korea they have a saying, to choose Jesus ask to die. Should we
0:29:00 > 0:29:07prioritise Christians. We need to prioritise people on need. However,
0:29:07 > 0:29:13you're quite right, awful things happening with that atheist blogger
0:29:13 > 0:29:17in Saudi sentenced to 1,000 lashes. Christians are not the only ones
0:29:17 > 0:29:21suffering. There is a scale of persecution happening to Christians
0:29:21 > 0:29:25around the world that's enormous at the moment. One of the things, I've
0:29:25 > 0:29:30been in Iraq and Beirut where people have fled Syria. What we often find
0:29:30 > 0:29:35ask the Christians don't have the mobility or confidence to register
0:29:35 > 0:29:40with the UN to apply to get out of the country. Where the UK's
0:29:40 > 0:29:44providing aid in places like niningeer ya and again into Syria --
0:29:44 > 0:29:51Nigeria. Where that's distributed by Islamic local governments, the
0:29:51 > 0:29:54Christians are not accessing the aid. If we want to be fair, ensure
0:29:54 > 0:29:57Christians are equally heard when considering who should be given
0:29:57 > 0:30:01asylum, the UK needs to become much more religiously literate and make
0:30:01 > 0:30:11sure they are hearing from everybody and then choosing on that basis.
0:30:12 > 0:30:16Radical Islam increasingly gets a stranglehold in places like Sudan,
0:30:16 > 0:30:22Tunisia, this is more dangerous for Christians. North Korea, top of the
0:30:22 > 0:30:31list,
0:30:31 > 0:30:33list, to be able to choose Christ, is to choose death.Afghanistan,
0:30:33 > 0:30:35Iraq, Yemen, a bit of a pattern, some would say. Countries the West
0:30:35 > 0:30:45has
0:31:14 > 0:31:22been last month, 10,000 people were massacred in Burma. In Central
0:31:22 > 0:31:27African Republic, the militia have told Muslims they should convert to
0:31:27 > 0:31:32Christianity uber-die, they are massacred 13 Muslims in the mosque
0:31:32 > 0:31:39-- or die.
0:31:39 > 0:31:43-- or die. Christians... They even eat Muslims as well. In no
0:31:43 > 0:31:52circumstances... Who eats Muslims? Lisa has done the research. In the
0:31:52 > 0:31:55Central African Republic, those people, although they are classed as
0:31:55 > 0:32:03Christians, they are much more animist in their practice. It is
0:32:03 > 0:32:05said by these reports, while Christians the most persecuted group
0:32:05 > 0:32:14in the world? Many groups... People from all different groups are
0:32:14 > 0:32:20persecuted in very large numbers. We have to tally it up as to which
0:32:20 > 0:32:26particular denomination or religionist. It is pretty bad for
0:32:26 > 0:32:31Christians. And it is based on village level detailed research.
0:32:31 > 0:32:36What I would say is...In India, Muslims are not persecuted by... No
0:32:36 > 0:32:43one is saying they are not persecuted. Lisa. Why are we playing
0:32:43 > 0:32:51this game as to which?It is not a game.In India and Nepal, Muslims
0:32:51 > 0:32:57are absolutely persecuted,
0:32:58 > 0:33:01are absolutely persecuted, in Vietnam, but across the world, for
0:33:01 > 0:33:08Christians, the scale of persecution is incredible. Working with partners
0:33:08 > 0:33:12in North Korea, Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, we provide trauma counselling,
0:33:12 > 0:33:15not just for Christians, but equipping the church to serve the
0:33:15 > 0:33:22whole community. Of course, if you are a Shia in Saudi, a Sunni in
0:33:22 > 0:33:27Iran, that is certainly true. The bigger issue is, between us, it is
0:33:27 > 0:33:32not about people competing with each other, we need to be really serious
0:33:32 > 0:33:35about establishing an environment where people can have any faith or
0:33:35 > 0:33:43no faith and be treated with dignity.Absolutely.
0:33:50 > 0:33:53We are talking about this because of the report, something we have not
0:33:53 > 0:33:55addressed before, the scale of the persecution of Christians. Godfrey
0:33:55 > 0:33:57Bloom, you said Muslim countries should look after Muslims. What do
0:33:57 > 0:34:00you mean?We have to be pragmatic. We have to bear in mind that England
0:34:00 > 0:34:06is one of the most crowded pieces of real estate on the planet, it is a
0:34:06 > 0:34:11welfare state, the state is responsible for education, welfare,
0:34:11 > 0:34:14pensions, so consequently, there is only a limited amount of people you
0:34:14 > 0:34:19can give sanctuary to. We need to understand that. We need to be
0:34:19 > 0:34:23pragmatic. We cannot be apple pie all the time. That is something we
0:34:23 > 0:34:28have to bear in mind. We also have to bear in mind we give vast
0:34:28 > 0:34:34quantities of aid to places like Pakistan and Nigeria.Or Bongo Bongo
0:34:34 > 0:34:41Land, as previously mentioned.Some of these places are pretty dodgy.
0:34:41 > 0:34:46You must've forgotten. You used the term Bongo Bongo Land. It was
0:34:46 > 0:34:52offensive then, it is offensive now. I forgot you had used that term.Let
0:34:52 > 0:34:59us all go and shoot ourselves.An apology would be fine.You will not
0:34:59 > 0:35:03get an apology from me, dear lady. We are spending £1 billion a month
0:35:03 > 0:35:09in foreign aid, we are scattering it all over the globe, but it comes
0:35:09 > 0:35:14without caveats. We have to tell Pakistan, there will be no more
0:35:14 > 0:35:18persecution of Christians, atheists, otherwise... Nigeria has to do
0:35:18 > 0:35:22something about it. We cannot go giving these people money, wringing
0:35:22 > 0:35:27our hands and bursting into tears. Some of these places are evil and
0:35:27 > 0:35:32need sorting out and they must not have tax payer's money anymore.What
0:35:32 > 0:35:38you are saying is completely wrong. What you are saying is, withdraw
0:35:38 > 0:35:41cash, hold back help, get these people to sort out themselves. What
0:35:41 > 0:35:47we need to look at is what is happening on the ground, the lady
0:35:47 > 0:35:51said, people being persecuted. It is not about separating different
0:35:51 > 0:35:55groups into Christianity, Muslim groups. We should look at how we can
0:35:55 > 0:36:06end persecution.Is it the rise of fundamentalism across the world,
0:36:06 > 0:36:14religious fundamentalism, in all its guises? And the parallel growth of
0:36:14 > 0:36:19sheer hatred and intolerance?It is us against them type of politics. We
0:36:19 > 0:36:24need to tackle these politics and the messages the leaders are putting
0:36:24 > 0:36:28out and I include Donald Trump in that.I thought you might. Let me go
0:36:28 > 0:36:33to the audience. I will be back with you. We have had some hands up.
0:36:33 > 0:36:39Gentleman with the headphones.I wanted to address the person that
0:36:39 > 0:36:42mentioned that the West is responsible for essentially the
0:36:42 > 0:36:50persecution.Abdullah.How would that make sense, they are killing
0:36:50 > 0:36:56people in their own country? People in the country who have a different
0:36:56 > 0:37:01religion, how are they responsible for what the West are doing?Can I
0:37:01 > 0:37:06provide a response? At the very least?You will, but I will go to
0:37:06 > 0:37:12the audience and come back to you. Going back to the question, should
0:37:12 > 0:37:16Christians be able to jump the asylum due? In the universal
0:37:16 > 0:37:21declaration of human rights, one of the key articles is everyone is born
0:37:21 > 0:37:26free and equal -- the asylum Q. You have people fleeing countries for
0:37:26 > 0:37:30months and years and if you were to push them back to make way for
0:37:30 > 0:37:33Christians who had been persecuted, any persecution is wrong, that
0:37:33 > 0:37:38cannot be denied, but if we were to push them back in the queue, we
0:37:38 > 0:37:41would not be treating them as if they were equal. We need to sort out
0:37:41 > 0:37:48the problems collectively. Christians being on Christian... The
0:37:48 > 0:37:53chaos that has been caused?It said Iraq was quite high up in the
0:37:53 > 0:37:57persecution of Christians in the report. However, under Saddam
0:37:57 > 0:38:03Hussein, that was not the case. If you go back even further, we see
0:38:03 > 0:38:05that the oldest Christian communities were in the Middle East,
0:38:05 > 0:38:12the most famous Catholic saint, Saint John of Damascus, wrote the
0:38:12 > 0:38:16first invectives against Islam in medieval Islamic Syria and nothing
0:38:16 > 0:38:21happened to him. Radical Islam is not the issue here, it is the
0:38:21 > 0:38:26post-colonial countries where you have nationalist or ethnic violence
0:38:26 > 0:38:34created in the modern era by the... One other point, in Pakistan, the
0:38:34 > 0:38:38blasphemy law is not derived from Sharia law, the rough formulation
0:38:38 > 0:38:42was borrowed from the English penal system, from the British colonial
0:38:42 > 0:38:52era.Time to move on. Gentleman there. Respond to that.I will do.
0:38:52 > 0:38:57Clearly, it should be based on need. From a legal perspective, moral,
0:38:57 > 0:39:00British values. Christian perspective, it should be based on
0:39:00 > 0:39:04need. There is large consensus here for that. It is very important to
0:39:04 > 0:39:08note in terms of things like blasphemy that we have 13 countries
0:39:08 > 0:39:13in the world where blasphemy and apostasy, where you can be murdered
0:39:13 > 0:39:21by the state for leaving your religion or being nonreligious. The
0:39:21 > 0:39:26UN special rapporteur on religion said that atheists suffer some of
0:39:26 > 0:39:29the most intense persecution. We should not be getting into this
0:39:29 > 0:39:33competition of who is the most persecuted, we need to have
0:39:33 > 0:39:36compassion and humanity, but we need to understand there are different
0:39:36 > 0:39:38things around the world and we need to be challenging these structures.
0:39:38 > 0:39:44Thank you very much. You are doing a little bit of eye rolling when
0:39:44 > 0:39:50Abdullah was talking.You have mentioned the fact blasphemy laws in
0:39:50 > 0:39:55Pakistan were a by-product of something carried into when the new
0:39:55 > 0:40:02state was formed...Borrowed.Should we be moving on now? Why do we need
0:40:02 > 0:40:06to feel so insecure about our religion that somebody makes a
0:40:06 > 0:40:09comment, we have to be outraged and Lynch that person?Can she just
0:40:09 > 0:40:18finished?Take the term imperialism out of the conversation, let us talk
0:40:18 > 0:40:23about what is actually wrong, morally wrong or whatever.That is
0:40:23 > 0:40:27what we are talking about. I am saying what is wrong is that in many
0:40:27 > 0:40:32of these secular nation states, we are seeing sectarianism.Blasphemy
0:40:32 > 0:40:37is essentially the fault of the West? For transplanting these
0:40:37 > 0:40:45attitudes? Charlie Hebdo is the West's fault?There is a very clear
0:40:45 > 0:40:50pattern...Charlie Hebdo is the fault of the West, people
0:40:50 > 0:40:59interpreting blasphemy laws, laws? It is not the result... We are
0:40:59 > 0:41:04talking about the Middle East. You mentioning blasphemy laws, we're not
0:41:04 > 0:41:10talking about what happened in France and the internal dynamic.It
0:41:10 > 0:41:16was seen as blasphemous. It was seen as contravening...I do not think
0:41:16 > 0:41:22you would take a blasphemy law... The reason that motivated them...It
0:41:22 > 0:41:27is against Islam. I do not agree with Jeffrey in his approach to what
0:41:27 > 0:41:31he said but I think one thing we have missed out on in this
0:41:31 > 0:41:35discussion is that what happens when people arrive here, as the
0:41:35 > 0:41:38granddaughter of an immigrant who came at the turn of the century,
0:41:38 > 0:41:45persecution from the Ukraine and Russia, my late grandfather was so
0:41:45 > 0:41:49grateful for what this country gifted to him, he insisted on
0:41:49 > 0:41:52becoming naturalised immediately, he wanted to sign up to fight at the
0:41:52 > 0:41:57outbreak of the First World War, he was a stretcher bearer. To the end
0:41:57 > 0:42:02of his days, he was grateful. There is no such thing as competitive
0:42:02 > 0:42:06suffering, no drop of more blood is more painful, we have agreed on
0:42:06 > 0:42:09that. Once you come to this country, we have so many difficulties with
0:42:09 > 0:42:15racial tensions, ghettos, all different ethnicities, people have
0:42:15 > 0:42:21to come here and respect British values. When someone comes here
0:42:21 > 0:42:25because of the level of suffering and persecution, now you are here,
0:42:25 > 0:42:32respect the way British people live. Thank you. We will get on to what
0:42:32 > 0:42:37the heck British values are at some stage. We have done that before.
0:42:37 > 0:42:39You can join in all this morning's debates by logging
0:42:39 > 0:42:40on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions
0:42:40 > 0:42:42and following the link to the online discussion.
0:42:42 > 0:42:44Or you can tweet using the hashtag #bbctbq
0:42:44 > 0:42:47and tell us what you think about our last Big Question too.
0:42:47 > 0:42:49Would higher council taxes on empty and second homes be fair?
0:42:49 > 0:42:52And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience
0:42:52 > 0:42:54at a future show, you can email audiencetbq@mentorn.tv.
0:42:54 > 0:42:57We're in Cambridge next Sunday, Newcastle upon Tyne on January 28th,
0:42:57 > 0:43:04and Southampton the week after that.
0:43:04 > 0:43:09Just north of Bradford, where we are this morning, the magnificent
0:43:09 > 0:43:14Yorkshire Dales national park.
0:43:14 > 0:43:16With its splendid limestone crags
0:43:16 > 0:43:17and caves, heather moors, and characterful stone villages.
0:43:17 > 0:43:2012,000 years ago, people came here from Europe to settle
0:43:20 > 0:43:21after the last Ice Age.
0:43:21 > 0:43:23Now, the incomers come from cities like Manchester, Bradford,
0:43:23 > 0:43:24Leeds and further afield.
0:43:24 > 0:43:27But many of these newer arrivals aren't settlers.
0:43:27 > 0:43:29These are their second homes.
0:43:29 > 0:43:32So, they're not using the local schools, shops and buses as much
0:43:32 > 0:43:33as the full-time residents.
0:43:33 > 0:43:35And they're pushing up the price of property
0:43:35 > 0:43:38beyond the reach of the locals.
0:43:38 > 0:43:40Now the local councils within the National Park
0:43:40 > 0:43:43would like to charge second home owners up to five times
0:43:43 > 0:43:48more council tax for the privilege of living there.
0:43:48 > 0:43:51So, £8,500 council tax on a second home in Band D,
0:43:51 > 0:43:55instead of the £1,640 it would cost a local full-time resident.
0:43:55 > 0:43:58And the same idea could be extended by local authorities to people
0:43:58 > 0:43:59with empty properties elsewhere.
0:43:59 > 0:44:02Here in Bradford, there are more long-term empty houses than anywhere
0:44:02 > 0:44:05else in West Yorkshire, around 4,000 in all.
0:44:05 > 0:44:13Would higher council taxes on empty and second homes be fair?
0:44:13 > 0:44:18David, how much higher should they go, perhaps?Well, I think you're
0:44:18 > 0:44:24slightly wrong there. It was a minimum of five times. Not up to
0:44:24 > 0:44:28five times. Let me paint awe picture of the Rohrichier shales.
0:44:28 > 0:44:40Population, 24,000. We've got an -- the Yorkshire Dales.
0:44:40 > 0:44:45the Yorkshire Dales. An area huge area. People 65 plus, twice the
0:44:45 > 0:44:49national average. 15 years and younger are a protected species in
0:44:49 > 0:44:55the Dales. But critically, working people, 18-44 way below the national
0:44:55 > 0:45:01average. That's the demographic. In terms of impact on services, all
0:45:01 > 0:45:05kinds of difficulties. Problems in schools. The butcher, baker,
0:45:05 > 0:45:09candlestick maker. Banks, Post Offices.What about restaurants and
0:45:09 > 0:45:13trades men? Don't they bring business into the area? These second
0:45:13 > 0:45:19homes?They do but they're a particular problem with services. On
0:45:19 > 0:45:22the housing side, we've 13,500 properties for a population of
0:45:22 > 0:45:2724,000. No shortage of housing. A shortage of affordable and local
0:45:27 > 0:45:35needs housing. Of that 13,500, we've about one in four, it's increasing,
0:45:35 > 0:45:42that are semi occupied. One in four. 75% permanently occupied. The
0:45:42 > 0:45:45national average is 96%. That's causing immense problems within the
0:45:45 > 0:45:53area. So, in terms of a proposal, what we're suggesting is that we
0:45:53 > 0:45:59approach Government as an area and say, I'm tell you what, we've had
0:45:59 > 0:46:03all these local national policy initiatives. In terms of the
0:46:03 > 0:46:06long-term decline of an area like this, squat. They're just not
0:46:06 > 0:46:12hitting the mark. So, what about just for a five-year pilot, giving
0:46:12 > 0:46:15us the powers to charged aingsal council tax on second home ownsers.
0:46:15 > 0:46:19Do you want to make money or keep these people out of area?Three
0:46:19 > 0:46:27objectives. One, two bring more homes which are currently semi-yes
0:46:27 > 0:46:31occupied back into permanent residency. Two, dedirt second
0:46:31 > 0:46:35homeowners from buying a second home in the Dales. If a second homeowners
0:46:35 > 0:46:39wants to have a home in the Dales, they pay-for-that to make up for the
0:46:39 > 0:46:43lack of economic spending that they've got in the area.What's the
0:46:43 > 0:46:51problem with that, John?First of all, I want to say, I have a 20-year
0:46:51 > 0:46:54track record of supporting young families, bringing them into the
0:46:54 > 0:46:58Dales, retaining those that are there. I'm particularly proud of
0:46:58 > 0:47:05that as a local councillor. But, to suggest we charge at least five
0:47:05 > 0:47:10times council tax to second homeowners smacks all over of the
0:47:10 > 0:47:15law of unintended consequences. And, most importantly, in my view, it
0:47:15 > 0:47:21will harm the very cause it sets stout to deliver, to retain and
0:47:21 > 0:47:28attract young families. Unfortunately, there's other ways
0:47:28 > 0:47:34that can be delivered.What are the unintended consequences?They will
0:47:34 > 0:47:39be, it will be damage the local economy. Second homeowners spend
0:47:39 > 0:47:43very freely in the local economy. They probably spend more sometimes
0:47:43 > 0:47:50than local families. They keep our army of small firms, builders,
0:47:50 > 0:47:56joiners, electricians, very often run by local families, going. We're
0:47:56 > 0:48:01making pariahs of people who support our economy and I think it's hugely
0:48:01 > 0:48:07unfair. It won't help the actual young families themselves. The idea
0:48:07 > 0:48:12that suddenly, a glut of houses on the market at the lower price will
0:48:12 > 0:48:17see young families take them on, I think, is a fallacy. I think,
0:48:17 > 0:48:22actually, it will harm everybody who owns property in the Dales and
0:48:22 > 0:48:28particularly those young families who've elected to buy a property
0:48:28 > 0:48:36there.OK. James, you're from Your Space, you do a lot about empty
0:48:36 > 0:48:40properties and the homeless. The number of empty properties in this
0:48:40 > 0:48:46part of the world is astonishing. Liking at alternative models for
0:48:46 > 0:48:50delivering housing.Which will ultimately help homeless people?
0:48:50 > 0:48:54Ultimately, yes. The tax is the point of question. If you look at
0:48:54 > 0:48:58the policy behind it, it is to try to help local communities. There is
0:48:58 > 0:49:03a strong correlation between second home ownership and rising local
0:49:03 > 0:49:07house price the. That does affect communities, especially young
0:49:07 > 0:49:10families and people who have grown up in an area in a can't afford a
0:49:10 > 0:49:14house there. If we're talking five times the council tax, I am
0:49:14 > 0:49:18interested to know is that money going to be in vested into the local
0:49:18 > 0:49:23community? Or communities groups like mining in York that helps
0:49:23 > 0:49:29deliver local housing, if the council can work with local people
0:49:29 > 0:49:34to help find, allocate sites, identify them.The politicians who
0:49:34 > 0:49:37propose this policy are conspicuous by their absence here today. They
0:49:37 > 0:49:41sent along a Chief Executive but where are they to defend the corner?
0:49:41 > 0:49:45Where are they to answer the questions?We've only a finite
0:49:45 > 0:49:52number of chairs on the front row. This is the problem. We already have
0:49:52 > 0:49:57Nick, John, Asia.You should have invited the people putting it
0:49:57 > 0:50:01forward, Nicky, if you don't mind me saying.I understand people will be
0:50:01 > 0:50:06affected by this. But the housing crisis is affecting lots of people,
0:50:06 > 0:50:10it is not fair on lots of people. This is a new group of people being
0:50:10 > 0:50:14affected by the housing crisis. This is dealing with the existing stock.
0:50:14 > 0:50:20We are just not building enough affordable homes. That is why second
0:50:20 > 0:50:24home ownership is challenged. It is a bold stick to bash people with.
0:50:24 > 0:50:29Angela, bashing people with second homes?As the mother of students,
0:50:29 > 0:50:33I'm concerned when they graduate for ruin versity can they get on to the
0:50:33 > 0:50:37property ladder. We are not building enough social housing. An architect
0:50:37 > 0:50:42friend of mine said the other night only 4% of this country is built on.
0:50:42 > 0:50:46There's an argument about green belt. You take the train from
0:50:46 > 0:50:49Manchester to London, you travel through vast areas of open space. I
0:50:49 > 0:50:55object...It's called agriculture. There are farmers who own fields for
0:50:55 > 0:50:59the sake of owning fields so they can get their kit back from the
0:50:59 > 0:51:11European Union.Subsidies!OK.Did you hear that?What I object to
0:51:11 > 0:51:15about this disparity about council tax, we have in this country of peep
0:51:15 > 0:51:18liesing success. We don't like it when people have money and they
0:51:18 > 0:51:23spend it. What about people that have... Hang on a second, with
0:51:23 > 0:51:26respect, so what about people who have second homes somewhere in a
0:51:26 > 0:51:30lovely part of Wales or the Yorkshire Dales? Because they go
0:51:30 > 0:51:34there they don't take their money abroad and spend it abroad on
0:51:34 > 0:51:39holiday. They bring that money every weekend they come. How do you
0:51:39 > 0:51:41calibrate how much time somebody spends in their home? If you have
0:51:41 > 0:51:45money and the banks are rubbish and it is not going to do anything if
0:51:45 > 0:51:48you put it in a bank so you might as well spend it on something that may
0:51:48 > 0:51:53appreciate. You may be able to gift it to your children and enjoy it.
0:51:53 > 0:51:58Why are you being penalised for that success?In the audience. You had
0:51:58 > 0:52:02your hand up. Good morning to you. Thank you. This policy about
0:52:02 > 0:52:06fundamentally looking after the needs of local people. As a concept,
0:52:06 > 0:52:11we can all be generally sympathetic with that. With regards the
0:52:11 > 0:52:14implementation, I can seaside effect the that may be unintended. But it
0:52:14 > 0:52:20brings into focus two other fundamental issues. The first is
0:52:20 > 0:52:24about intra immigration within the UK. You could widen that to
0:52:24 > 0:52:29immigration into the UK. The second is trying to make our cities more
0:52:29 > 0:52:35attractive to people, improving standard, quality of living and
0:52:35 > 0:52:37enhancing existing environments, existing communities. I think this
0:52:37 > 0:52:40is a bigger debate. At the moment we're talking about the Yorkshire
0:52:40 > 0:52:44Dales. I believe over the next ten years or so, this will be a debate
0:52:44 > 0:52:48that is extended into other aspects of population control, population
0:52:48 > 0:52:52management within the UK. We have not addressed this.Thank you very
0:52:52 > 0:52:59much indeed. The lady with your hand up, stripy top and glasses.My
0:52:59 > 0:53:03personal opinion is you only need one home. If you want a second home,
0:53:03 > 0:53:08you should pay more council tax. Also, the situation in the Yorkshire
0:53:08 > 0:53:11Dales, children and young people that have grown up in that village
0:53:11 > 0:53:16can't get on the property ladder or properties available for them to buy
0:53:16 > 0:53:22to stay where they are because they've been taken up by second
0:53:22 > 0:53:31home-buyers.Some are leaving, you see.Susie wants to say something.
0:53:31 > 0:53:37Angela raising a point penalising. We are not penalising.We are.We're
0:53:37 > 0:53:45not.But you are.We're saying we need to spread that wealth. A lot of
0:53:45 > 0:53:50these areas are underfunded anyway. If you you've earned it.This is a
0:53:50 > 0:53:56really bad idea. It is a complete distraction in the amount of houses
0:53:56 > 0:54:01being built in this country. The Government should let more houses be
0:54:01 > 0:54:07built in their areas. Lots of times the builders want to build more and
0:54:07 > 0:54:10the council says no, they want to protect the green belt or the
0:54:10 > 0:54:14environment. What they mean is they'll oppose any development in
0:54:14 > 0:54:17their local communities. I understand people have carnets about
0:54:17 > 0:54:20infrastructure. A lot of developers come in saying they want to build
0:54:20 > 0:54:26houses...You can't build over a National Park?We're talking about
0:54:26 > 0:54:33building over a per cent amming of the land not being built upon.It is
0:54:33 > 0:54:36green and pleasant lad?A lot is not. It is just sitting there.
0:54:36 > 0:54:41Nothing being done with it. Developers are ready to build more
0:54:41 > 0:54:45homes for younger people and the bureaucrats and council get in the
0:54:45 > 0:54:51way. The process is very complex. Better to use empty houses than tear
0:54:51 > 0:54:57up agent woodland? What about this specific prop bowsal whacking up
0:54:57 > 0:55:03council tax like this?It is impossible to enforce. Unless you
0:55:03 > 0:55:06get a detective to see how many days of the year you're in that second
0:55:06 > 0:55:13home.We're missing the point here. It is about the future viability and
0:55:13 > 0:55:17sustainability of local communities. What we're putting forward here is a
0:55:17 > 0:55:21proposal for one part of the country. I rec these problems exist
0:55:21 > 0:55:25in the Lake District and many other places.All over.That's where why
0:55:25 > 0:55:30we're talking about a pilot. For every house built in the Yorkshire
0:55:30 > 0:55:34Dales per year two are disappearing into the part-time occupied market.
0:55:34 > 0:55:38You can't build your way out of this particular problem.Of course you
0:55:38 > 0:55:47can.You can't.If all the second homeowners move out because the
0:55:47 > 0:55:52extra tax duty is so penal, won't that suppress the value of 75% of
0:55:52 > 0:55:56the remaining property so the people living there will have houses that
0:55:56 > 0:56:00will be worth vastly less than they were because they're inflated by the
0:56:00 > 0:56:05second homeowner? Surely, the answer is a balance. And a balance isn't at
0:56:05 > 0:56:11least five times. Maybe it's twice or two-and-a-half times and
0:56:11 > 0:56:14encouraging some sort of cohesion between second homeowners so they
0:56:14 > 0:56:18will accept they're rich enough to afford a second home they will
0:56:18 > 0:56:22accept to a certain level they need to contribute to the community? But
0:56:22 > 0:56:26you're going to kill it.Let me answer that. You can't determine
0:56:26 > 0:56:30what the result of a five-year pilot is before you actually start the
0:56:30 > 0:56:35pilot.At that price, you can.John talked about unintended
0:56:35 > 0:56:39consequences. There will be a whole range of consequences. That point
0:56:39 > 0:56:43might have more validity if the ignore the fact within the
0:56:43 > 0:56:47constituent local authorities around the National Park there will be
0:56:47 > 0:56:535,000 houses built over the next five years. We're talking about 1400
0:56:53 > 0:56:55second homes within the National Park. This is not about second
0:56:55 > 0:57:01homeowners. You can't get a debate which differentiates between good
0:57:01 > 0:57:07second homeowners and bad ones. Have you to look at the consequence.The
0:57:07 > 0:57:12consequence of 5.2 million people owning two, three, four or five
0:57:12 > 0:57:16homes in this country when others can't get on to the housing ladder.
0:57:16 > 0:57:22#4r5iedy here.I absolutely agree with the basic principle that we
0:57:22 > 0:57:28need to be itting something about second homes. As the gentleman says,
0:57:28 > 0:57:31it's having a disproportionate affect on communities. We really
0:57:31 > 0:57:39need to think about how are we going to make the rural England
0:57:39 > 0:57:43sustainable, viable and how it will produce communities that are worth
0:57:43 > 0:57:53living in and having. Because, one of the things that has been, if you
0:57:53 > 0:57:57like, one the disdisadvantages of having a beautiful county, we've
0:57:57 > 0:58:01tourism, people think, it is fan fastic, I'd love to buy a house here
0:58:01 > 0:58:06and come more often the that's one of the down side. People can't use
0:58:06 > 0:58:11village halls, nobody needs the bus service, the local school closes.
0:58:11 > 0:58:15But in rural businesses, they are far more entrepreneurial than urban
0:58:15 > 0:58:21ones. We need to move on to make sheer we can put families in those
0:58:21 > 0:58:27villages.We haven't a lot of time. Is there is a danger then that it
0:58:27 > 0:58:32will only be the mega rich who can have those second homes?I would say
0:58:32 > 0:58:36five times is far too many. If you bought a Ferrari, you have to pay
0:58:36 > 0:58:40more road tax and be able to service it. If you you have a second home
0:58:40 > 0:58:46you need to pay a premium.Thank you, thank you. See you next week.
0:58:46 > 0:58:49We're in Cambridge. Thank you very much for watching. Have a great
0:58:49 > 0:58:54Sunday.