0:00:07 > 0:00:11Today on The Big Questions, anti-Semitism and the left,
0:00:11 > 0:00:19the true cost of porn, and safe spaces to take drugs.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31APPLAUSE
0:00:31 > 0:00:32Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34Welcome to The Big Questions.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37Today we're live from the Students' Union at Northumbria University
0:00:37 > 0:00:38in Newcastle upon Tyne.
0:00:38 > 0:00:41Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
0:00:41 > 0:00:46APPLAUSE
0:00:47 > 0:00:49Yesterday was Holocaust Memorial Day with this year's theme
0:00:49 > 0:00:53being the power of words.
0:00:53 > 0:00:58And words like anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist have been
0:00:58 > 0:00:59particularly troubling to the Labour Party over
0:00:59 > 0:01:01the past couple of years.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04Now, since the recent elections to Labour's National
0:01:04 > 0:01:05Executive Committee, there have been words
0:01:05 > 0:01:10bandied about the new head of the Disputes Committee,
0:01:10 > 0:01:16Momentum director, Christine Shawcroft.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18She's been criticised after she only gave two cases involving
0:01:18 > 0:01:19anti-Semitism a warning last week.
0:01:19 > 0:01:26Does the left have a problem with anti-Semitism?
0:01:26 > 0:01:30You left the Labour Party. Why? Because I am half Jewish,
0:01:30 > 0:01:36married to a Jewish woman and we have a Jewish son and we felt the
0:01:36 > 0:01:41Labour Party was no longer the place that we thought it had been. We have
0:01:41 > 0:01:47been Labour voters our entire lives, trade union members...Where is your
0:01:47 > 0:01:52evidence?It is a good question. A lot of the debate about
0:01:52 > 0:01:56anti-Semitism is complex and I do not expect everyone in the audience
0:01:56 > 0:02:01or at home to understand what can be a really complex debate but it is
0:02:01 > 0:02:05not that complex if you boil it down. I have brought along evidence.
0:02:05 > 0:02:10Always good to have evidence rather than just opinions. Evidence put on
0:02:10 > 0:02:16social media by either Labour Party members or Labour Party offices or
0:02:16 > 0:02:22even Labour Party elected representatives. A Labour Party
0:02:22 > 0:02:30member, also, by the way, a member of one of the groups that Naomi
0:02:30 > 0:02:35represents, Free Speech On Israel, the Holocaust and the phoney 6
0:02:35 > 0:02:40million, I know the official version regarding systematic...That is
0:02:40 > 0:02:48not... That does not represent the organisation.That is evidence. A
0:02:48 > 0:02:55post from a Labour member.One more. Back to 2015, David Cameron is part
0:02:55 > 0:03:01of the Zionist elite group of morons obliged to feet the Zionist Jew
0:03:01 > 0:03:09masters.Come back on that. Whenever we do any debate like this, it is so
0:03:09 > 0:03:16divisive, it sometimes turns into a shout fest. I will try to be done in
0:03:16 > 0:03:21the middle. I want to give everyone a fair shot. Accusations there, we
0:03:21 > 0:03:29have seen the social media stuff, it is horrible, take it back to the
0:03:29 > 0:03:36central question, does the left have a problem with anti-Semitism?There
0:03:36 > 0:03:40is a problem with anti-Semitism in our society, as there was a problem
0:03:40 > 0:03:46with rising racism of many different kinds. The evidence shows Muslims
0:03:46 > 0:03:50are a much more vulnerable target Alan Jews and the Roma gypsies are
0:03:50 > 0:04:01even more vulnerable -- more vulnerable target than the dues.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05vulnerable target than the dues. 7% of Brits have negative opinions
0:04:05 > 0:04:10about Jews, 40% have negative opinions about Roma, 30% about
0:04:10 > 0:04:17Muslims. It is horrendous, rising and terrifying, the right is on the
0:04:17 > 0:04:22rise.What about the left?I will get into that. The problem we have
0:04:22 > 0:04:26on the left is that we are being asked to redefine anti-Semitism. I
0:04:26 > 0:04:33am sure everyone knows what anti-Semitism is, hostility,
0:04:33 > 0:04:40prejudice against Jewish people. Allow me, if I may, focus on this as
0:04:40 > 0:04:47a question, if you say that I am not in any way racist about someone's
0:04:47 > 0:04:52ethnicity or about Jewish people, but I do not think the state of
0:04:52 > 0:04:58Israel should exist as it currently exists, is that anti-Semitic?It is
0:04:58 > 0:05:03not because Israel is not a person. You can only be racist against an
0:05:03 > 0:05:08individual. I do not deny, however, that much of the language some
0:05:08 > 0:05:15people ignorantly use...Denying self determination... On this
0:05:15 > 0:05:20particular point, denying self determination...No, why would it
0:05:20 > 0:05:26be? If I were to say about any other group in the world, I am not sure,
0:05:26 > 0:05:31are they really are a nation? The case of Jews, my four grandparents
0:05:31 > 0:05:38came from eastern Europe, Russia, Poland, Germany, Ukraine, no
0:05:38 > 0:05:42connection with the Middle East, many Jews lived in Middle Eastern
0:05:42 > 0:05:47countries, Arabic speaking Jews, they share an Arabic culture, people
0:05:47 > 0:05:58in New York love bagels, are we a nation?That is debatable. It is not
0:05:58 > 0:06:03the Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi show.I will come back in a moment. And
0:06:03 > 0:06:07Sheila and Chris too. The notion about saying the state of Israel
0:06:07 > 0:06:12does not have a right to exist...I did not say that. I said the right
0:06:12 > 0:06:16to self-determination is something one can debate.Is that
0:06:16 > 0:06:24anti-Semitism?On the left... If you want to wear a badge that says, I am
0:06:24 > 0:06:28not anti-Semitic, but, of all the people in the world, I refuse to
0:06:28 > 0:06:32grant the rights and respect the right of self-determination to the
0:06:32 > 0:06:36Jews alone, then wear the badge with pride if that is where you are. That
0:06:36 > 0:06:43is what it is. It is no less than that.That is a mischaracterisation.
0:06:43 > 0:06:48It is really important. For people watching at home, decent, British
0:06:48 > 0:06:53people who have not spent their lives in the wars on the extreme
0:06:53 > 0:06:57left, this is confusing and it is really confusing if you get someone
0:06:57 > 0:07:04who is Jewish to say, it is not anti-Semitic to do X, Y, Z. It is
0:07:04 > 0:07:08important everyone watching understands the voices of people
0:07:08 > 0:07:14like Naomi with her tiny group, they represent an extremely...I am the
0:07:14 > 0:07:20wrong kind of Jew, Saul.Let me carry on. I respect your right to
0:07:20 > 0:07:31have your view. Jews are clueless group.We are not all Zionists --
0:07:31 > 0:07:39Jews are a large group.The Jewish leadership council, the Chief Rabbi,
0:07:39 > 0:07:48liberal synagogues, reformed...Let us take it to the Labour Party. Is
0:07:48 > 0:07:55there not a parallel here, Anna Turley? If you criticise Israel...
0:07:55 > 0:08:00None of this is criticising Israel. This is where the line is, the
0:08:00 > 0:08:04criticism of Israel itself, where it seeps into anti-Zionism,
0:08:04 > 0:08:13anti-Semitism. If I may, thank you. Sorry.I understand the emotive
0:08:13 > 0:08:18nature of all of this, of course. Is it not the same, if you criticise
0:08:18 > 0:08:23Israel, it is not anti-Semitism? It is perfectly legitimate to criticise
0:08:23 > 0:08:28Islam as a religion but it is not Islamophobia. There is an absolute
0:08:28 > 0:08:34parallel.I am heartbroken to hear Saul and other members of the Jewish
0:08:34 > 0:08:39community who have lost faith in the Labour Party. Over 100 years history
0:08:39 > 0:08:44of standing up to prejudice.Are they right to lose faith?Our values
0:08:44 > 0:08:48have always been about tackling prejudice, racism, making sure
0:08:48 > 0:08:52everyone has freedom of speech and tolerance. I believe in those values
0:08:52 > 0:08:56and that is the kind of society I want to build. I am heartbroken to
0:08:56 > 0:09:01see the rise of anti-Semitism. But I do believe there is an issue on the
0:09:01 > 0:09:08left. There is no problem with criticising Israel's domestic
0:09:08 > 0:09:11policy, foreign policy, settlements, human rights. We are free and at
0:09:11 > 0:09:15liberty to criticise any government around the world but we have to
0:09:15 > 0:09:18think carefully about the language we use and that is what Holocaust
0:09:18 > 0:09:24Memorial Day is about because as soon as you lift it out of criticism
0:09:24 > 0:09:26of government policy into anti-Semitic tropes we have seen
0:09:26 > 0:09:35around wealthy Jew...Controlling the media. The banking dynasty. They
0:09:35 > 0:09:40are creeping back into social media. What is anti-Zionism?It is a
0:09:40 > 0:09:46difficult definition. If you are believing the state of Israel, you
0:09:46 > 0:09:52are Zionist. Emily Thornberry said Jeremy Corbyn believes in the right
0:09:52 > 0:09:56of Israel to exist. It is party policy to believe in the two-state
0:09:56 > 0:10:02solution.Do you believe in Israel's right to exist?But it can be used
0:10:02 > 0:10:08as a term of abuse.If you believe in Israel's right to exist and
0:10:08 > 0:10:12self-determination, are you a Zionist, Chris?I believe in its
0:10:12 > 0:10:16right to exist, you could have an idea about whether the declaration
0:10:16 > 0:10:20was a good idea, but Israel is a fact of life and we have to
0:10:20 > 0:10:26accept... I do think we have got to the nub of the problem. Two issues
0:10:26 > 0:10:31become conflated, the abuse you find trawling through the internet...It
0:10:31 > 0:10:41does not take long to find.And discussion about... It is now one of
0:10:41 > 0:10:48the most right wing regimes that Israel has ever had. In the process
0:10:48 > 0:10:55of setting up an apartheid state and I think we ought to be allowed to
0:10:55 > 0:10:59talk about that. APPLAUSE
0:10:59 > 0:11:04They have colonised the West Bank illegally. They are beginning to
0:11:04 > 0:11:07ethnically cleanse east Jerusalem and they have herded many of the
0:11:07 > 0:11:15Palestinians into Gaza. I have heard plenty of Jewish people use the word
0:11:15 > 0:11:19apartheid state. Plenty of people in Israel oppose what is going on.
0:11:19 > 0:11:28Those of us is not in Israel should be a -- should be allowed to use the
0:11:28 > 0:11:32same terms without being accused of anti-Semitism. The two most critical
0:11:32 > 0:11:39people in the House of Commons, most critical about this, Harry Cohen,
0:11:39 > 0:11:51and another, also Jewish.They call them self hating Jews. The audience,
0:11:51 > 0:11:55right back with you, Sheila, in a second, I will go round a few
0:11:55 > 0:12:01people. Good morning. Something Chris Mullin said.That accusation
0:12:01 > 0:12:07that Israel is an apartheid state, minorities in Israel constitute
0:12:07 > 0:12:12nearly 20% of the population and have exactly the same rights as
0:12:12 > 0:12:21Jews.Sadly not true. I cannot live in certain towns. They cannot drive
0:12:21 > 0:12:27on certain roads.This is exactly the kind of thing... The
0:12:27 > 0:12:30interruptions, they confirm the truth and the questions that we are
0:12:30 > 0:12:33debating here today.Why does it confirm the truth?Saying something
0:12:33 > 0:12:40people like Chris Mullin and Naomi disagree with, they interrupt
0:12:40 > 0:12:46straightaway. My son has lived in Israel for over a year, he has lived
0:12:46 > 0:12:51effectively in an Arab section, generally Arab because it is an
0:12:51 > 0:12:58older section, mixture of Christian Arabs, Muslims, Jews...Taking it
0:12:58 > 0:13:05back. Does the left have a problem with anti-Semitism?Yes.I would
0:13:05 > 0:13:09like to say the Labour Party in its current form can be the most
0:13:09 > 0:13:16critical government of Israel's apartheid policies against the
0:13:16 > 0:13:20Palestinians and this clearly scares the pro-Israeli advocates who do not
0:13:20 > 0:13:25believe there is an issue. From my time in Palestine, I was appalled at
0:13:25 > 0:13:28the way Palestinians were treated at the hands of the Israeli government
0:13:28 > 0:13:34and the soldiers. I witnessed and I spoke to mothers forced to give
0:13:34 > 0:13:38birth at Israeli checkpoints, 350 Palestinian children currently
0:13:38 > 0:13:43illegally incarcerated in Israeli prisons against the UN Charter. I am
0:13:43 > 0:13:49a lawyer, I have read the Geneva convection, it forbids Israel from
0:13:49 > 0:13:59using collective punishment -- the Geneva Convention. How uncomfortable
0:13:59 > 0:14:04does it make you feel? They made me feel uncomfortable. I'm not denying
0:14:04 > 0:14:09there was a problem with anti-Semitism. However, the Home
0:14:09 > 0:14:13Affairs Committee report released recently stated that the majority of
0:14:13 > 0:14:16anti-Semitism is coming from far right wing groups and behaviour
0:14:16 > 0:14:22associated with that. On one hand, anti-Zionism, people say it comes
0:14:22 > 0:14:28from the left, anti-Semitism from the right, you want to come in,
0:14:28 > 0:14:32Sheila? Getting away from the state of Israel, anti-Semitism has been on
0:14:32 > 0:14:35the left for a long time, in all political parties in this country
0:14:35 > 0:14:43and generally amongst the populace. 1905, that aliens act was introduced
0:14:43 > 0:14:45because the social Democratic Federation in the east and rising up
0:14:45 > 0:14:49against what they saw as people coming into the country, some people
0:14:49 > 0:14:56say Karl Marx showed anti-Semitism. I do not want to concentrate on the
0:14:56 > 0:15:00left because it is everywhere but we need to understand the language and
0:15:00 > 0:15:06the stereotypes are absolutely in Jewish history. In the 80s, I was in
0:15:06 > 0:15:09a group against anti-Semitism because of anti-Semitism in the
0:15:09 > 0:15:18women's liberation movement, there was a representation of Israeli
0:15:18 > 0:15:21soldiers as blond haired and jackbooted, I do not want to talk
0:15:21 > 0:15:25about the exact accusations of now, but it makes no sense to try to not
0:15:25 > 0:15:33look at Andy -- at anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. We do not expect
0:15:33 > 0:15:37it on the left.I would not in any way describe myself as a friend of
0:15:37 > 0:15:42Israel, I am a supporter of the Palestinian cause. As an antifascist
0:15:42 > 0:15:46campaigner over the decades, I would say back in the 80s, anti-Semitism
0:15:46 > 0:15:51was very clearly a far right phenomenon and it was in the Tory
0:15:51 > 0:15:55party and in sections of the left as well and communist and so on. In the
0:15:55 > 0:16:00last few years, and you can monitor it on social media, that
0:16:00 > 0:16:05anti-Semitism has shifted left and that... I do not know what is
0:16:05 > 0:16:09happening in the Labour Party, but last year, people were identifying
0:16:09 > 0:16:13themselves as supporters of Jeremy Corbyn before the election, there
0:16:13 > 0:16:19were a lot of anti-Semitic tweeting from people identifying themselves
0:16:19 > 0:16:23as voters of Jeremy Corbyn. They may be confused. Not everyone backing
0:16:23 > 0:16:27him is a socialist and so on. Absolutely, there has been a shift
0:16:27 > 0:16:33from the far right to the left of these ideas.
0:16:33 > 0:16:38In terms of issues on anti-Zionism and Zionism and the right of states
0:16:38 > 0:16:44to exist n international law there's no such right. The state of Israel
0:16:44 > 0:16:49doesHave the right to exist, France, there's no such right
0:16:49 > 0:16:53enshrined in international law. It is a problem on the left. I've been
0:16:53 > 0:17:00campaigning on this issue for a number of years.
0:17:01 > 0:17:06number of years. I believe whilst the institute for Jewish policy
0:17:06 > 0:17:11research says the issue on the left there is broadly a denial
0:17:11 > 0:17:16anti-Semitism is an issue. There's a dismissive attitude towards people
0:17:16 > 0:17:21who raise this. Not treating it with the sensitivity it needs. The left
0:17:21 > 0:17:24really need to educate themselves on how to recognise and tackle this
0:17:24 > 0:17:30issue as best as possible and be proper allies to our Jewish
0:17:30 > 0:17:37compatriots.Can we talk about the profession of racism. Anti-Semitism
0:17:37 > 0:17:43is a form of racism. What frightens me as a form of due.It is not about
0:17:43 > 0:17:48being a due. Not a matter of birth, not a political view. You
0:17:48 > 0:17:54interrupted me so I'll interrupt you.Do not deny her ethnicity.It
0:17:54 > 0:17:59has nothing to do with it.Jewish people need to be very wary of
0:17:59 > 0:18:04rising racism. It affects them alongside all other victims of
0:18:04 > 0:18:10vulnerable minorities. I want to look at the way historically dues
0:18:10 > 0:18:16have approached this terrifying racism and this is over centuries,
0:18:16 > 0:18:19dating back to medieval Christianity, a lot of it. We had a
0:18:19 > 0:18:24choice at the end of the 19th Century. Were dues going to adopt a
0:18:24 > 0:18:30new model, political Zionism, which was very much a minority ideology at
0:18:30 > 0:18:36the end of the 19th Century. Or were we going to decide we would fight
0:18:36 > 0:18:39alongside others who fight injustice in society. There was a split. The
0:18:39 > 0:18:45Zionist movement decided to look for an imperial patron to find a state
0:18:45 > 0:18:50where dues could go...We haven't time for the whole narrative.People
0:18:50 > 0:18:57need to under ginned there is an extensive movement, a socialist Bunt
0:18:57 > 0:19:02movement, a mass party in Poland. People died fighting the Nazis as
0:19:02 > 0:19:07anti-Zionists. When people use the fact dues suffered in the past to
0:19:07 > 0:19:13justify what Israel does to the Palestinians. They have a right
0:19:13 > 0:19:18toself determination. Israeli racism needs to be challenged.Excuse me.
0:19:18 > 0:19:24While we haven't the time in this debate, we hear this phrase, the
0:19:24 > 0:19:28word Holocaust applied to what happened to the Palestinian people.
0:19:28 > 0:19:33I didn't say that.You see it all the time. Does anyone say that's an
0:19:33 > 0:19:41appropriate word? Does anyone here say that's appropriate?No,It is
0:19:41 > 0:19:48deliberately insulting and demeaning to Jewish people?
0:19:49 > 0:19:52to Jewish people?Holocaust denial interpretations...This is against
0:19:52 > 0:19:59people from...Naomi. Whatever you think about the plight of
0:19:59 > 0:20:00Palestinian people by any international definition it is
0:20:00 > 0:20:05nowhere near being a Holocaust but people use the word all the time.It
0:20:05 > 0:20:11is really depressing in any debate around Israel and Palestine, the
0:20:11 > 0:20:18language is inappropriate. Used to historical victim status is used to
0:20:18 > 0:20:22justify against the Israeli state to say they are just doing this,
0:20:22 > 0:20:26they're justified because of this, they use it as an excuse to carry
0:20:26 > 0:20:31out what they are doing. This is anti-Semiticic language. We are
0:20:31 > 0:20:35discussing a really sensitive issue. We have to be very thoughtful, take
0:20:35 > 0:20:40the situation as it is and apply the highest rigorous standards of
0:20:40 > 0:20:45looking at the Israeli state as we do around the world.Do we do that?
0:20:45 > 0:20:50Some people do, no doubt. There is a small problem on the left. I think
0:20:50 > 0:20:53it is rather less than the problem on the ride and perhaps society as a
0:20:53 > 0:20:59whole. There are two new dimensions in the last few years or in the case
0:20:59 > 0:21:08of digital media. The rise of digital media make it easy to
0:21:08 > 0:21:12express prejudice, including anti-Semitism. The second factor, it
0:21:12 > 0:21:17has only arisen in the last three or four years, there are some on the
0:21:17 > 0:21:21right of the political spectrum who see this as yet another stick with
0:21:21 > 0:21:31which to bash Jeremy Corbyn. You saw it...Chris, let me come in there.
0:21:31 > 0:21:38It is a really key point. We have an ethnic minority, dues represent 0.7%
0:21:38 > 0:21:44of the population in this country. 199.7% of people in the population
0:21:44 > 0:21:49are not dues. Most people have never met one. That tiny ethnic minority
0:21:49 > 0:21:56puts up its hand and the process a profoundly disturbing and
0:21:56 > 0:22:00uncomfortable. The people I thought were on my side, I'm hearing some of
0:22:00 > 0:22:05those voices, not all, but some of those voices that are saying and
0:22:05 > 0:22:10doing things which are expressly anti-Semetic. What you would expect
0:22:10 > 0:22:15there, how you would expect the left to respond with any other ethnicity
0:22:15 > 0:22:20is go back to anti-racist first principles. Listen, think about the
0:22:20 > 0:22:25language and make sure you use the MacPherson principles about treating
0:22:25 > 0:22:30something as if it is a racist incident.That's not being applied?
0:22:30 > 0:22:35No, what's happened there, Chris is a great example of it there, saying
0:22:35 > 0:22:39when dues like me stand up and say there is anti-Semitism coming from
0:22:39 > 0:22:44the left, you don't stop, listen, think about the language and take it
0:22:44 > 0:22:47as face value, you say we're lying because we want to do down and bring
0:22:47 > 0:22:51down Jeremy Corbyn and the left. Would you do that about any other
0:22:51 > 0:22:56ethnic group? I think not.If it was happening with any other, we would.
0:22:56 > 0:23:01We have to leave it there. I've been doing debates like this, on this
0:23:01 > 0:23:04topic for 30 years. There will be another chance. Thank you all very
0:23:04 > 0:23:05much.
0:23:05 > 0:23:07If you have something to say about that debate,
0:23:07 > 0:23:10log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, and follow the link to where you can
0:23:10 > 0:23:12join in the discussion online.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15Or contribute on Twitter.
0:23:15 > 0:23:16We're also debating live this morning at Northumbria
0:23:16 > 0:23:22University's Students' Union, is porn damaging to society?
0:23:22 > 0:23:26And should there be licensed safe places to take drugs?
0:23:26 > 0:23:29So, get tweeting or emailing on those topics now,
0:23:29 > 0:23:31or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may
0:23:31 > 0:23:34have about the show.
0:23:37 > 0:23:39You might suppose the use of online pornography is largely confined
0:23:39 > 0:23:43to the privacy of people's homes, but more than 40% of businesses have
0:23:43 > 0:23:48to regularly reprimand a high percentage of their employees
0:23:48 > 0:23:50for watching porn at work.
0:23:50 > 0:23:54So, it's not just in the Houses of Parliament that these things go on.
0:23:54 > 0:23:57Britain ranks second in the world for traffic to one
0:23:57 > 0:24:00of the world's leading porn sites, only beaten by the USA.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04I'll spare you the details of the precise types of porn
0:24:04 > 0:24:08Brits like to watch, but the words lesbian, mothers,
0:24:08 > 0:24:13step sister and mature feature heavily in the most
0:24:13 > 0:24:14searched for sites.
0:24:14 > 0:24:22Is porn damaging to society?
0:24:22 > 0:24:27Sheila Jeffreys from Object scop women are not Sex Objects. Damaging
0:24:27 > 0:24:33to society. Adults watching, partaking in porn, it is a free
0:24:33 > 0:24:36society. It is part of the whole march of sexual emancipation and
0:24:36 > 0:24:41liberation?Pornography is not a private pursued people get up to in
0:24:41 > 0:24:45their bedrooms. It as huge and massive industry. Back in the 1970s
0:24:45 > 0:24:49I was in the first anti-pornography group in this country. It's changed
0:24:49 > 0:24:54hugely since then. Got more and more violent. Pornography is men's free
0:24:54 > 0:24:58speech. They speak with each other through the harm they do to women's
0:24:58 > 0:25:06body. Women in pornography have to take painkillers, mussel relaxants.
0:25:06 > 0:25:10It affects the women in it. I see it as a form of violence against those
0:25:10 > 0:25:15women. It has huge effects on society in general. In primary
0:25:15 > 0:25:20school we've a massive amount of sexual assault from boys on girls.
0:25:20 > 0:25:25That wasn't happening before. In Parliament, it is affecting
0:25:25 > 0:25:29democracy. Women MPs are having a huge amount of sexual abuse against
0:25:29 > 0:25:34them. Diane ablot got one letter in green pen a week. She now has
0:25:34 > 0:25:39thousands and thousands of racists but also I'vically viciously sexist,
0:25:39 > 0:25:44including rape and death threats towards herself. The state of women
0:25:44 > 0:25:51is enormously harmful.It would be discourteous of me not to take your
0:25:51 > 0:26:00point at this particular as a porn porn actress. Kelly. When Sheila
0:26:00 > 0:26:06started your hand went up.The part Sheila was saying about the abuse of
0:26:06 > 0:26:11the girls in the industry. Can I ask have you been in the industry
0:26:11 > 0:26:15yourself, Sheila?No I haven't. I do know women who have, quite a few.
0:26:15 > 0:26:20They've talked to me about it.Being in the industry, if you haven't been
0:26:20 > 0:26:24in it yourself you don't know what goes on in there. There's no need to
0:26:24 > 0:26:29take painkillers.Is the it degrading?Only if it was you
0:26:29 > 0:26:33wouldn't be in the industry, would you?Are people treated respectfully
0:26:33 > 0:26:39within that?They are, yes. You've got your boundaries, safe words.Has
0:26:39 > 0:26:46it any damaging effect on people who watch it?No. Back in the eighties
0:26:46 > 0:26:51and nineties, it wasn't free. So it wasn't that damaging to society, or
0:26:51 > 0:26:55not at all. Now it is readily available on the free porn porn
0:26:55 > 0:27:01sites. Porn porn in itself isn't damaging, it is the free porn porn
0:27:01 > 0:27:05sites which means it gets into the wrong hands that is making it
0:27:05 > 0:27:10damaging because it is getting into the wrong hands.Do you think people
0:27:10 > 0:27:18are too young watching it? Rosy, you have astudied this. Is it degrading,
0:27:18 > 0:27:24damaging bad for society?I don't believe it is. It has driven a huge
0:27:24 > 0:27:31technological advancement. It has helped drive internet, Wye if I,
0:27:31 > 0:27:35DVD, importantographers are often the first people to take advantage
0:27:35 > 0:27:39of these new technologies, making sure they can be rolled out into
0:27:39 > 0:27:43wider society use. That's one major advantage of it.It is a secondary
0:27:43 > 0:27:51effect, isn't it?The way producers utilise...Let's talk about people.
0:27:51 > 0:27:57Porn and people.Degradation is a hugely subjective term. It is not up
0:27:57 > 0:28:02to anybody else to tell people what they should and shouldn't find
0:28:02 > 0:28:06degrading. It is up to the individual to decide what their
0:28:06 > 0:28:12reaction is to what they are viewing. They can then choose to
0:28:12 > 0:28:17accept it, reject it, not view it if they don't want to and take personal
0:28:17 > 0:28:20responsibility for that are viewership.There's not a lot of
0:28:20 > 0:28:25choice. Women do not chose to be affected by pornography. The
0:28:25 > 0:28:30children in school. Young girls who have to do anal sex. One fifth of
0:28:30 > 0:28:34young people under 25 do that. The women find it very, very painful.
0:28:34 > 0:28:40They do not wish to do it. It is constructing sexual practice, the
0:28:40 > 0:28:43status of women, the abuse women get. It is not just about private
0:28:43 > 0:28:49choice. We have to look at how this extraordinary industry, a propaganda
0:28:49 > 0:28:57of woman hatred, is what I call it. Carry on Jerry.I often here this
0:28:57 > 0:29:03from anti-porn advocates. People try anal sex.If people are offended by
0:29:03 > 0:29:11some of the terms we are using. We'll try to proceed with a Mody
0:29:11 > 0:29:16comof BBC censorship. In what way is it good for society, pornography?
0:29:16 > 0:29:23Before I jump on that, can I say, I've, my book, I've dealt with
0:29:23 > 0:29:29object. They present themselves as a women's human rights organisation.
0:29:29 > 0:29:33Actually, Object were brought to my attention by a friend who was is a
0:29:33 > 0:29:37stripper. These women have turned up to our workplace and started
0:29:37 > 0:29:43screaming abuse at us as we go to work. Now they are lobbying Hackney
0:29:43 > 0:29:48and Tower Hamlets council to close down our workplace. They stay they
0:29:48 > 0:29:58are stopping us being abused. They refuse to speak to us.Object?They
0:29:58 > 0:30:02do not engage with women in the industry has they claim to.You
0:30:02 > 0:30:06believe they are bogus in that respect? What are the positives of
0:30:06 > 0:30:12porn?In terms of the evidence, then absolutely, the evidence
0:30:12 > 0:30:17overwhelmingly suggests porn has overall been beneficial to society
0:30:17 > 0:30:22rather than harmful. So, notwithstanding Sheila's anecdotal
0:30:22 > 0:30:26comments on children abusing each other in playgrounds and that kind
0:30:26 > 0:30:35of thing... ...5,500 sexual assault over three years.Though coincides
0:30:35 > 0:30:39with a steep decline in the West and Britain and in America of violent
0:30:39 > 0:30:45crime and sex Sewell violence. In America, sexual violence has
0:30:45 > 0:30:51declined according to FBI stats.
0:30:51 > 0:30:57The House of Commons committee looked at sexual assault in schools
0:30:57 > 0:31:01and did make the connection with pornography in terms of the sexual
0:31:01 > 0:31:07practice with an organ we will not speak of, the research on that does
0:31:07 > 0:31:09say the boys themselves say it was pornography that made them do it and
0:31:09 > 0:31:13it is enormously harmful to the girls.There is quite a bit of
0:31:13 > 0:31:19evidence. These studies are very politicised...I don't think so.
0:31:19 > 0:31:22This is not a problem with pornography, this is a problem with
0:31:22 > 0:31:24the failings of our sexual education system.
0:31:24 > 0:31:31APPLAUSE People are not given...To navigate
0:31:31 > 0:31:36the current sexual landscape.Does it give young men, for example, a
0:31:36 > 0:31:43certain view of women?No.In the audience, good morning.Is it
0:31:43 > 0:31:47damaging to society. Sex is a form of human expression. What is more
0:31:47 > 0:31:52damaging is not the fact... Since man could scrawl on cave walls,
0:31:52 > 0:31:59there has been pornography. Look at the Elgin marbles...Way before
0:31:59 > 0:32:05that.What is more damaging as people telling people what their
0:32:05 > 0:32:11morality should be.I think we are discussing the personal side of
0:32:11 > 0:32:16pornography and what you want to choose as an adult. A bit at the
0:32:16 > 0:32:21moment on Facebook of a two-year-old who approaches Alexa, the machine
0:32:21 > 0:32:27that tells you what is happening in your house, he says to the machine,
0:32:27 > 0:32:32where is my game? He names a game, Alexa assumes he has asked Phil
0:32:32 > 0:32:40porn...We are talking about adults. That is how pervasive it has become,
0:32:40 > 0:32:44people who are not expecting it, not looking for it, they can be affected
0:32:44 > 0:32:51by it. We need to look at how we can control it as a society.Morning.
0:32:51 > 0:32:56One of the problems is, I am not against pornography per se, but one
0:32:56 > 0:33:02of the things I would like to say and maybe ask you because you are in
0:33:02 > 0:33:05the porn industry, do you think it gives young women in particular an
0:33:05 > 0:33:14absolutely impossible ideal to look up to because most women do not look
0:33:14 > 0:33:17like porn stars and are they aspiring to do so and is it
0:33:17 > 0:33:24damaging?No. Each to their own. I didn't come into this industry
0:33:24 > 0:33:32because I wanted to be like anybody else. I am me, I work as me, I'll
0:33:32 > 0:33:36come out and I am back to me. I'm not aspiring to have people looking
0:33:36 > 0:33:42like me.You do not need to answer, has it affected your relationships,
0:33:42 > 0:33:46personal relationships? Your emotional life? And your sex life?
0:33:46 > 0:33:55It has made everything better.I would say accusations are thrown at
0:33:55 > 0:34:02porn, but the rest of the media is worse.
0:34:04 > 0:34:09worse. In porn, you will see lots of different bodies...What is porn?
0:34:09 > 0:34:15The gentleman behind me pointed out porn has been around the tens of
0:34:15 > 0:34:20thousands of years. There is an old saying, what I like is erotica, what
0:34:20 > 0:34:26you like is porn. It is a pejorative term for erotica.You work porn
0:34:26 > 0:34:34addict until you had the dialogue with God -- you were. Jesus helped
0:34:34 > 0:34:38you.It was in my early teens when I experienced addiction to porn. My
0:34:38 > 0:34:42first exposure was at that age of eight. We are talking about adults,
0:34:42 > 0:34:47you say, but that average age of first exposure to adult material is
0:34:47 > 0:34:5411. I think... That is probably an old statistic.Tell us about your
0:34:54 > 0:35:00addiction.It started with a Page 3 in a newspaper, we had an art
0:35:00 > 0:35:05project in school, doing papier-mache...Is that porn?It is
0:35:05 > 0:35:10pornographic. It was a great way for me, it awakened a curiosity in me, I
0:35:10 > 0:35:14had never seen images like that before. I was 13 years old when I
0:35:14 > 0:35:21had that first experience and I began to explore online and very
0:35:21 > 0:35:28quickly the things I was looking at became more extreme. I realised that
0:35:28 > 0:35:31what started as curiosity began to have a hold on my life, I reached a
0:35:31 > 0:35:37point where I was no longer something that I might do if I had a
0:35:37 > 0:35:42bit of spare time.Every day?Every spare moment I had. When I did not
0:35:42 > 0:35:47have a spare moment, more often than not, I was thinking about, when can
0:35:47 > 0:35:51I grab a moment? Back in the days when you had one computer in the
0:35:51 > 0:35:55house.There was a moment when you felt like you were having a dialogue
0:35:55 > 0:36:02with God?I was 17, at a large youth camp, 10,000 young people, there was
0:36:02 > 0:36:06a speaker, I cannot remember much of what he said, but the one thing that
0:36:06 > 0:36:12stuck in my mind is he looked out into the crowd, I felt like he was
0:36:12 > 0:36:17looking at me, he probably wasn't, as a 17-year-old lad, very insecure,
0:36:17 > 0:36:21I had been feeling like this thing that was going on in my life was not
0:36:21 > 0:36:29good for me.Made a connection?He shouted out, God can see it, I can
0:36:29 > 0:36:33see it, and I was terrified because he scared the life out of me and I
0:36:33 > 0:36:38thought he could see this thing I had been feeling ashamed of. He
0:36:38 > 0:36:43called for people to stand and to receive prayer. The various things,
0:36:43 > 0:36:50addictions...Did you look at any porn after that?You said you were a
0:36:50 > 0:36:55virgin until you got married and you felt guilty about the prospect of
0:36:55 > 0:37:03premarital sex so your addiction to porn is steeped in religious guilt.
0:37:03 > 0:37:06That was cognitive dissonance in your life, do you think that is the
0:37:06 > 0:37:11point?I have the utmost sympathy for your story and I completely
0:37:11 > 0:37:16understand that for some individuals, pornography can disrupt
0:37:16 > 0:37:20their lives and I definitely recognise that.Background is
0:37:20 > 0:37:27relevant.Definitely.Social context.Definitely. What I think is
0:37:27 > 0:37:31the wider problem here is the fact that parents do not take
0:37:31 > 0:37:34responsibility. In their children from viewing this material. It is so
0:37:34 > 0:37:43easy to install an online computer filter system. It is easy to put an
0:37:43 > 0:37:47app on a child's mobile phone to stop them accessing this material.
0:37:47 > 0:37:52APPLAUSE It was curiosity for you.Taking it
0:37:52 > 0:37:57to adults again, because that is a whole other massive issue, hugely
0:37:57 > 0:38:00important and worrying, but does this change their expectations of
0:38:00 > 0:38:05what young men expect from young malewomen, pornography?I do not
0:38:05 > 0:38:10believe it does. There are studies coming out increasingly suggesting
0:38:10 > 0:38:18that pornography viewership in men can lead to more gender equality and
0:38:18 > 0:38:20attitudes, better openness and communication with their partners.
0:38:20 > 0:38:26The positives of pornography? Morning.I went to a boys only
0:38:26 > 0:38:35boarding school. The way the guys... My mum told me to respect women. I
0:38:35 > 0:38:39remember 70% of the boys, we had cleaners who were women, the way
0:38:39 > 0:38:43they treated them was appalling. If you look at the background, the way
0:38:43 > 0:38:47they talk about them, it was based on the pornography they watched at
0:38:47 > 0:38:51home. We had no access at school. They will go home, fantasise, come
0:38:51 > 0:38:58back to school and tell everyone. As you grow up, in our 20s, they would
0:38:58 > 0:39:05go into relationships, oh, my God, this girl, she does not do this, she
0:39:05 > 0:39:10does not have, for example, multiple orgasms, like what they had grown up
0:39:10 > 0:39:15to expect by watching pornography. They ended up with numerous
0:39:15 > 0:39:18relationships not because... When you watch pornography, they do not
0:39:18 > 0:39:23see the emotional side that happens when you are having sex, it was all
0:39:23 > 0:39:28about the act.Another point, but gentleman has raised in my mind, it
0:39:28 > 0:39:36gives unrealistic expectations, but in certain societies where sex is
0:39:36 > 0:39:39taboo in female sexual expression and sexuality is barely
0:39:39 > 0:39:43acknowledged, this might be something that allows someone in to
0:39:43 > 0:39:50see that, yes, we have a sexuality and we have a right...That would be
0:39:50 > 0:39:54marvellous if porn was anything like that. Even today, we cannot talk
0:39:54 > 0:39:57what is in the pornography, we cannot talk about the body parts...
0:39:57 > 0:40:04Sunday morning. We can talk about the issues.The problem is huge
0:40:04 > 0:40:10numbers of people, mainly women, have no idea what is in it.20% of
0:40:10 > 0:40:14the people who watch porn are women. I suggest people look at the
0:40:14 > 0:40:18descriptions of pornography online for pornography you will do
0:40:18 > 0:40:25streaming with, for instance, and it is violent language against women,
0:40:25 > 0:40:29the research shows more than half of pornography has violence in it, like
0:40:29 > 0:40:33slapping, that is quite interesting. We will not find the lovely
0:40:33 > 0:40:36pornography that will teach women and men how to behave. There is some
0:40:36 > 0:40:40research showing that even in Southeast Asia now, there are young
0:40:40 > 0:40:45boys watching pornography in special cafes where they have pornography on
0:40:45 > 0:40:50screens, creating very harmful attitudes.I would like to bring it
0:40:50 > 0:40:56back, we touched on the issue of simple porn addiction and sex
0:40:56 > 0:41:00addiction, in psychological terms, they do not exist, they are
0:41:00 > 0:41:03diagnoses pushed by therapists who seek to queue at them and they make
0:41:03 > 0:41:13money. I liken porn addiction...He was addicted.I likened the porn
0:41:13 > 0:41:22addiction due to the gay...You believe it is nonsense?
0:41:22 > 0:41:27Psychologists seem clear porn addiction does not exist. There are
0:41:27 > 0:41:32problematic behaviours around porn, but no such thing as porn addiction.
0:41:32 > 0:41:35There is research suggesting religious people are much more
0:41:35 > 0:41:40likely to be distressed by porn usage. Jack described seeing Page 3
0:41:40 > 0:41:46at age 13, this is that happens to every boy, 12, 13, 11 hit puberty,
0:41:46 > 0:41:53the arrival of your sexual awareness that overtakes you, hormonal change
0:41:53 > 0:41:58could you have no control over it. If you are religious, brought up in
0:41:58 > 0:42:01a religious society, go to an all boys school, you are much more
0:42:01 > 0:42:04likely to find this distressing and worrying and not know how to deal
0:42:04 > 0:42:10with it. As Rosie said, it comes back to six education. In Jack's
0:42:10 > 0:42:14case, it seems you come from a religious background, it may have
0:42:14 > 0:42:20shocked you a lot more -- sex education.We have not had a chance
0:42:20 > 0:42:26to talk to Kelly. She is right behind you?Nice to meet you, Kelly.
0:42:26 > 0:42:32That is a very interesting question. I think one of the things that has
0:42:32 > 0:42:36not been brought into this...What she is doing, is it morally wrong?A
0:42:36 > 0:42:43very good question. I think there are effects of it which are wrong.
0:42:43 > 0:42:48Yeah. I am not going to sit here and condemn Kelly for doing the work you
0:42:48 > 0:42:52do, Kelly, that is a choice you have made. One of the things we need to
0:42:52 > 0:42:55introduce into this debate that has not been talked about...Last word
0:42:55 > 0:43:00and you have to move on.The issue of trafficking. There are people
0:43:00 > 0:43:07like Kelly who have chosen to become part of the porn industry, but 22%,
0:43:07 > 0:43:1121-30,000,000 people who are trafficked, it is for sexual
0:43:11 > 0:43:14exploitation. APPLAUSE
0:43:14 > 0:43:20A big debate. Very, very important debate to have.
0:43:20 > 0:43:22You can join in all this morning's debates by logging
0:43:22 > 0:43:24on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, and following the link
0:43:24 > 0:43:25to the online discussion.
0:43:25 > 0:43:27Or you can tweet using the hashtag #bbctbq.
0:43:27 > 0:43:30Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too.
0:43:30 > 0:43:32Should there be licensed safe places to take drugs?
0:43:32 > 0:43:36And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience
0:43:36 > 0:43:39at a future show, you can email audiencetbq@mentorn.tv.
0:43:39 > 0:43:41We're in Southampton next Sunday, Oxford on February 11th,
0:43:41 > 0:43:44and Leicester the week after that.
0:43:48 > 0:43:50Last week, Parliament debated whether Britain should do more
0:43:50 > 0:43:52to treat drug addiction as a health issue, rather than
0:43:52 > 0:43:56seeing it as a crime.
0:43:56 > 0:43:58Ronnie Cowan, an SNP Member of Parliament,
0:43:58 > 0:44:02suggested drug consumption rooms were part of the answer - supervised
0:44:02 > 0:44:04places where illicit drugs could be used under the supervision
0:44:04 > 0:44:08of trained staff, as they are in many other European countries.
0:44:08 > 0:44:11There was a lot of support from MPs across all parties, even though
0:44:11 > 0:44:13the Government's Home Office spokesperson was not
0:44:13 > 0:44:16remotely convinced.
0:44:16 > 0:44:18There's already a club on Teesside where members can use
0:44:18 > 0:44:20cannabis on the premises.
0:44:20 > 0:44:26The local police are apparently aware, but not,
0:44:26 > 0:44:28concerned.
0:44:28 > 0:44:32Should there be licensed safe places to take drugs?
0:44:32 > 0:44:42Where are you, Kirsten?There you are! How would it work? Supervised
0:44:42 > 0:44:48drug consumption rooms are around the whole world, about 100 of them,
0:44:48 > 0:44:53they have existed for over 30 years. Evidence for them is overwhelming.
0:44:53 > 0:44:57What would happen is someone would attend the service, like a health
0:44:57 > 0:45:01service, with their own drugs, the service does not provide them, and
0:45:01 > 0:45:07inject the drug is under supervision of trained staff and have access to
0:45:07 > 0:45:13lots of other services and treatment and goal setting meeting the
0:45:13 > 0:45:18individual's needs.They absolutely save lives. They do save lives?In
0:45:18 > 0:45:23times when we have the highest rates of drug-related deaths at the
0:45:23 > 0:45:26moment, we should be looking at all the evidence -based opportunities to
0:45:26 > 0:45:31reduce deaths. They reduce the incidence of blood-borne viruses
0:45:31 > 0:45:35like hepatitis C and HIV and in Glasgow where I am working at the
0:45:35 > 0:45:39moment, there is a proposal for this type of facility, particularly on
0:45:39 > 0:45:44the back of an HIV outbreak at the moment.Do they legitimise the
0:45:44 > 0:45:48taking of hard drugs? Is there a sense of... This is one of the
0:45:48 > 0:45:53criticisms, a kind of validation?
0:45:53 > 0:45:58They do enable drug use. They enable safe drug taking under the
0:45:58 > 0:46:03supervision of staff so if someone were to overdose on the premises
0:46:03 > 0:46:07there's staff available to help that person.Rather than in a derelict
0:46:07 > 0:46:10building somewhere?Exactly. It is often seen as a controversial
0:46:10 > 0:46:18service. In actual fact we already provide sterile injektable equipment
0:46:18 > 0:46:23to people knowing they'll perhaps inject in an unsafe unhygienic
0:46:23 > 0:46:30environment. Providing a sterile, safe viern it is huge step.You make
0:46:30 > 0:46:48it all sound really nice. I used her win for -- her herion for 17 years.
0:46:48 > 0:46:53I was shocked at the topic, a safe place to use doctoring. I thought,
0:46:53 > 0:46:57if that was me back in the day, I would probably be dead. Now the
0:46:57 > 0:47:01Government ace saying, it is OK to do what you do.They are not.That's
0:47:01 > 0:47:05what it represents. If you think of the mind of addict, that is what it
0:47:05 > 0:47:10is saying. It is OK now to do what you're doing, carry on and not only
0:47:10 > 0:47:15that, we'll make it comfortable for you. It's very dangerous.We're not
0:47:15 > 0:47:19talking about people using in their own home environments, we're talking
0:47:19 > 0:47:23about some of the most vulnerable and marginalised people in our
0:47:23 > 0:47:28communities.
0:47:31 > 0:47:37communities. They've no self-esteem. What supervised injecting facilities
0:47:37 > 0:47:42do is encourage people to come in in a non-judgmental environment. To
0:47:42 > 0:47:46connect with people in a unique way that cannot be achieved by any other
0:47:46 > 0:47:51service.What you mean is anyone addicted to drugs, it is back to our
0:47:51 > 0:47:57definition of what is pornography. What are drugs. Alcohol, the biggest
0:47:57 > 0:48:03scourge of our society.The World Health Organisation found out, 90%
0:48:03 > 0:48:08of people who use drugs do not use drugs problematic. It is the 10% of
0:48:08 > 0:48:12problematic drug users. Within that, the most vulnerable, as you say. You
0:48:12 > 0:48:18were really lucky to have a home to use drugs in.No, that was cut off.
0:48:18 > 0:48:23There were years of homelessness innocence after. That it was hard
0:48:23 > 0:48:28enough waiting to see if you're going to score. This place you'll go
0:48:28 > 0:48:35to with drugs, other addicts waiting to go to go in so they can pounce on
0:48:35 > 0:48:46you. You call this safe.I hear you. It is anecdotal. Not evidence-based.
0:48:46 > 0:48:49I'm former drug substance abuser. People go in here, they are treated
0:48:49 > 0:48:53as human beings. Their problems are looked at. All the other issues that
0:48:53 > 0:48:58are dealt with. It is a first line for treatment. A first line for
0:48:58 > 0:49:02treatment.There is a support service. The needles are clean?
0:49:02 > 0:49:09Yeah.The drugs aren't cut with terrible things?Nobody's ever died
0:49:09 > 0:49:15in a drug consumption room. Nobody's ever become infected with HIV. When
0:49:15 > 0:49:19you used drugs, we were using really dangerously. At that point in my
0:49:19 > 0:49:22life, when I was 19, there was nothing that would stop me doing
0:49:22 > 0:49:30what I was doing. But what happened is when I got into recovery, which
0:49:30 > 0:49:36is what I needed, not everybody needs that, it only works for 7% of
0:49:36 > 0:49:41the people. The rest of my friends went to prison. My partner died of
0:49:41 > 0:49:46HIV. He would never have died of HIV if he'd had the service that's
0:49:46 > 0:49:54offered here. We've had 150 cases in Glasgow, the most vulnerable people,
0:49:54 > 0:49:59people without homes, are being diagnosed with HIV. This is just,
0:49:59 > 0:50:02it's unbelievable that this can still be happening. And there is
0:50:02 > 0:50:06such a simple solution to...That would have happened with our without
0:50:06 > 0:50:15this.Nobody's ever been diagnosed or caught a blood born virus.You
0:50:15 > 0:50:18would get the minority. There's still a majority out. There my
0:50:18 > 0:50:21concern is this is money we're talking about. You're talking about
0:50:21 > 0:50:28prevention. I want to talk about cure. Put money into, I work in a
0:50:28 > 0:50:32rehabilitation centre.This is not, Karen, is this money well spent?I
0:50:32 > 0:50:39think what we would be saying, I'm from Addaction, a drug and alcohol
0:50:39 > 0:50:44charity, we deliver front line services every day, drug consumption
0:50:44 > 0:50:48rooms in an ideal world should be part of a treatment system. It is a
0:50:48 > 0:50:55method, it is really strong evidence-based, about 30% of people
0:50:55 > 0:50:57coming through drug consumption rooms move into treatment which is
0:50:57 > 0:51:01what we want. However, there are two big problems in society. Money is
0:51:01 > 0:51:06one. Drug and alcohol treatments have had significant cuts, about
0:51:06 > 0:51:1025-40%. And two, the political will to do it. Actually, it's been shut
0:51:10 > 0:51:17down.I'm going to ask Chris about the political will in just a second
0:51:17 > 0:51:23being a distinguished former Parliamentarian. Rather than being a
0:51:23 > 0:51:25former distinguished Parliamentarian. Quick points from
0:51:25 > 0:51:33the audience. In front with the beard. You've got a beard.I'm a big
0:51:33 > 0:51:36fan of the consumption room prop posals. Drug addiction's been around
0:51:36 > 0:51:41since the beginning of time. It won't go away. The only way to
0:51:41 > 0:51:44address is it common-sense approaches.Do you run the cannabis
0:51:44 > 0:51:54club?I do.You have a lot of your clients here today! LAUGHTERThank
0:51:54 > 0:51:59you for the support. We've been open 14 months over that time we've found
0:51:59 > 0:52:05out we have a lot of people from all walks of life from 18-72.Is it a
0:52:05 > 0:52:09cannabis I might have smoked at university or I might not have? Or
0:52:09 > 0:52:15is it... Is it the stronger strains now that we're hearing about?The
0:52:15 > 0:52:19stronger strains, the weaker strains. Everything is available to
0:52:19 > 0:52:23be consumed within the club. We don't supply it. The members bring
0:52:23 > 0:52:30their own. They are happy to pay for it.This is crazy. Isn't it?Let me
0:52:30 > 0:52:34take it across here to the lady there with the blue shawl. Good
0:52:34 > 0:52:40morning. What I wanted to say was addictionWe know as a medical
0:52:40 > 0:52:44person, I know as well, addiction, some people are prone to addiction.
0:52:44 > 0:52:47Whether its alcohol, drugs or whatever. It is a medical problem.
0:52:47 > 0:52:53We need to have these places more of these places so that they can be
0:52:53 > 0:52:58counselled. Get the support they need if they do want to get rid of
0:52:58 > 0:53:03it. Exactly the right thing, right attitude to take.Thank you. In the
0:53:03 > 0:53:10white shirt. Hello. The lady in the white shirt. Too many white shirts
0:53:10 > 0:53:15going on here.I want to come back to the financial argument. Drug
0:53:15 > 0:53:18consumption rooms can reduce the pressures on emergency services and
0:53:18 > 0:53:23add anythings to hospitals. They will increase demand on the services
0:53:23 > 0:53:28treatment services so people can access support. One of the
0:53:28 > 0:53:30difficulties we have is these are funded through two different
0:53:30 > 0:53:35budgets. You might be saving in one element but that money won't are
0:53:35 > 0:53:39realised to put in extra support services. We need to look at the way
0:53:39 > 0:53:46we commission our services and the way budgets are held.Chris, you
0:53:46 > 0:53:51were a former chair had a select committee? You looked at drugs
0:53:51 > 0:53:56policy?Yes.We've been talking about this for decades. People say
0:53:56 > 0:54:02we need an entirely new approach. Some people wand decriminalisation.
0:54:02 > 0:54:07Some people are arguing for places like this. What stops us from moving
0:54:07 > 0:54:13in a more liberal direction? Is it the media?The report published in
0:54:13 > 0:54:192001 or 2002, we recommended safe injecting places. We took evidence
0:54:19 > 0:54:24and witnesses from Switzerland where it has worked very well. In my view,
0:54:24 > 0:54:29that's a no-brainer. You're talking about chaotic drug users. Heroin
0:54:29 > 0:54:36mainly. You can only establish a point of contact. If they have the
0:54:36 > 0:54:40will, offer them another option. Once you've got them in a controlled
0:54:40 > 0:54:44space, the point you made earlier about making sure they don't consume
0:54:44 > 0:54:47con Tam Nated drugs and that happened a lot around here
0:54:47 > 0:54:52incidentally, been quite a lot of deaths from it. It is a strong one.
0:54:52 > 0:54:57The other thing is that the don't throw their needles all over the
0:54:57 > 0:55:02park or down various streets for children to pick up. Of course,
0:55:02 > 0:55:07there's a point about Aids as well. We recommended at the time it was a
0:55:07 > 0:55:12no-brainer. Why isn't there the political will because mass
0:55:12 > 0:55:17hysteria's organised by certain sections of media, led by the Daly
0:55:17 > 0:55:21mail usually, whenever the subject is broached. And politicians are
0:55:21 > 0:55:27afraid of that. Since politicians depend on votes for a living, they
0:55:27 > 0:55:31are particularly vulnerable to that. One of the things we recommended and
0:55:31 > 0:55:37it was a very minor recommendation, was downgrading cannabis from a
0:55:37 > 0:55:41class A to a Class B drug. That was based on the science. Nothing to do
0:55:41 > 0:55:50with... When we did, the Home Secretary accepted that. And did it.
0:55:50 > 0:55:57And extraordinary hysteria broke out on that one issue.It is strange,
0:55:57 > 0:56:01there was a whole generation of MPs who kind of should have known what
0:56:01 > 0:56:05they were talking about because they were all people who had done it as
0:56:05 > 0:56:13well!Not me, Governor! I have never even smoked a cigarette.I think it
0:56:13 > 0:56:19was on LBC they interviewed all the Labour Party candidates. This he'd
0:56:19 > 0:56:22all done it except for Jeremy Corbyn.And me!The question about
0:56:22 > 0:56:27this is the failure of the state. Political parties come into power.
0:56:27 > 0:56:32As soon as any political party controls the state, they have an
0:56:32 > 0:56:38inability to be able to deal with this issue effectively. The good
0:56:38 > 0:56:42judgment is overborn by the fact they feel as running the stale they
0:56:42 > 0:56:46can't allow this. This should have been done years ago. It is a state
0:56:46 > 0:56:52failure.I live in Durham where the Chief Inspector of Durham
0:56:52 > 0:56:58constabulary Mike Barton set up a checkpoint scheme to reduce
0:56:58 > 0:57:02low-level crime in relation to drugs. I've nothing to do with class
0:57:02 > 0:57:07A or the police. I have me own demons which I play the 5th
0:57:07 > 0:57:14amendment on. He, and his staff, want to reduce low-level crime with
0:57:14 > 0:57:17drug abuse and drug addiction. I don't wish to misquote him. He wants
0:57:17 > 0:57:23to attack, get at the highly organised criminal gangs, take the
0:57:23 > 0:57:28money way from drug supply, which is the life blood. Which is why they do
0:57:28 > 0:57:35it.Fiona, we're coming to the end here. Obviously we're talking about
0:57:35 > 0:57:39chaotic and problem users. But there are chaotic user of alcohol and
0:57:39 > 0:57:45problem users of alcohol. People debate this, shoot all these
0:57:45 > 0:57:50opinions. Some of the people refuse to acknowledge the most dangerous
0:57:50 > 0:57:56drug in society.Which is alcohol. Yeah. Just to get back to your point
0:57:56 > 0:58:01They're called public houses, the safe places.Drug consumption rooms.
0:58:01 > 0:58:07They're called my front room on a Friday night as well!Mike Barton
0:58:07 > 0:58:12also wants, the Chief Constable, I'm his community adviser, he wants
0:58:12 > 0:58:18heroin assisted treatment. He wants safe consumption rooms.Pete, last
0:58:18 > 0:58:27word. 30 seconds.I was saying, my concern is there's a lot of money
0:58:27 > 0:58:31going into this, enabling, I'm sorry, that's what I call it,
0:58:31 > 0:58:38enabling someone to carry on in they're diction. Put the money into
0:58:38 > 0:58:41residential rehabilitation centres. We have to leave it there. Thank you
0:58:41 > 0:58:44all very much. Thank you. See you next week.
0:58:44 > 0:58:47Next week, we're in Southampton, so do join us then.
0:58:47 > 0:58:50But for now, it's goodbye and have a great Sunday.