0:00:06 > 0:00:08Today on The Big Questions: Is Britain still racist?
0:00:08 > 0:00:09And higher education.
0:00:09 > 0:00:17Is it delivering for students and society?
0:00:30 > 0:00:31Good morning.
0:00:31 > 0:00:32I'm Nicky Campbell.
0:00:32 > 0:00:36Welcome to The Big Questions.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38Today we're live from St Edward's School in Oxford.
0:00:38 > 0:00:43Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45Wednesday's announcement that Cheddar Man, a Mesolithic
0:00:45 > 0:00:51hunter-gatherer who lived here 10,000 years ago,
0:00:51 > 0:00:53was dark-skinned with blue eyes turned upside down many people's
0:00:53 > 0:00:54ideas about early Britons.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56Pale skin and fair hair didn't appear in Europe
0:00:56 > 0:00:59until after the arrival of farming, around 3000 years
0:00:59 > 0:01:03later than Cheddar Man.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06No-one knows how the dark-skinned and fair-skinned Britons
0:01:06 > 0:01:12viewed each other then or even if they would have met.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15But today we do know that the colour of a person's skin does
0:01:15 > 0:01:16affect their chances in life.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19A recent survey by NatCen for the Runnymede Trust found 26%
0:01:19 > 0:01:21of the sample admitted to being racially prejudiced.
0:01:21 > 0:01:2718% thought that some races or ethnic groups are born
0:01:27 > 0:01:29with less intelligence and 44% thought that some races
0:01:29 > 0:01:33are naturally harder working than others.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36But while people of colour are more likely to end up in prison,
0:01:36 > 0:01:38white working-class boys are still at the bottom
0:01:38 > 0:01:41of the heap educationally.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44And as Beyonce's dad remarked this week, it's easier for those black
0:01:44 > 0:01:46female artists with lighter skin to become a success
0:01:46 > 0:01:48than it is for their darker sisters.
0:01:48 > 0:01:52Is Britain still racist?
0:01:52 > 0:01:52Afua
0:01:52 > 0:01:58Afua, you have written this
0:01:58 > 0:02:01fascinating book Brit-ish, which has caused a lot of stirrer and
0:02:01 > 0:02:04interesting debate and conversation but this is the question that you
0:02:04 > 0:02:08have got to be asked. Middle-class girl, private school, successful
0:02:08 > 0:02:14journalist, how has racism effect you?I am glad you added the facts
0:02:14 > 0:02:18in your intro because it has freed me up from the need to insist that
0:02:18 > 0:02:25racism does affect society. Whatever statistics you take, a quarter of
0:02:25 > 0:02:31people of another ethnic heritage have been abused by a manager, half
0:02:31 > 0:02:35of ethnic minority families are living in poverty, the list is
0:02:35 > 0:02:39endless. I have written this book because I have had a very privileged
0:02:39 > 0:02:43life. I am not a victim. I have had so many opportunities and everywhere
0:02:43 > 0:02:47I have gone in society, the media, the bar, working in development, I
0:02:47 > 0:02:52have seen structural unfairness against people of colour. Everywhere
0:02:52 > 0:02:56I have looked. And I feel it is the responsibility for me to use my
0:02:56 > 0:03:04platform to speak about these things. If I don't... This is a
0:03:04 > 0:03:06class based society. You need to have privileged like me in most
0:03:06 > 0:03:09cases to be able to access platforms like this where we are sitting right
0:03:09 > 0:03:12now. I am speaking about what I see affecting all of us, whatever our
0:03:12 > 0:03:17race, because we all live in a structural racialised society.What
0:03:17 > 0:03:24about used African people, Asians and the Chinese?In my book I am
0:03:24 > 0:03:32calling for a more detailed talk about race. We are not all the same.
0:03:32 > 0:03:37BAME is not one ethnic group. South-east Asian people are
0:03:37 > 0:03:42overrepresented at consultant level in the NHS. It is important to
0:03:42 > 0:03:45differentiate these experiences and at the moment I am sorry to say that
0:03:45 > 0:03:50we have a very simplistic approach. We say that white working-class boys
0:03:50 > 0:03:54are not doing well in schools in coastal and rural areas. That means
0:03:54 > 0:03:58we have overcome racism and the only prejudice in society is class based.
0:03:58 > 0:04:03Is anyone saying we have overcome racism when we say that?We have got
0:04:03 > 0:04:07to have this conversation.I thought that was the nuance we were looking
0:04:07 > 0:04:11for?It is. I have not experienced what the generation above me
0:04:11 > 0:04:14experience, being chased down the street by people with baseball bats
0:04:14 > 0:04:25and being called offensive racial slur words.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27slur words. That has not been my reality.It has gone, hasn't it?It
0:04:27 > 0:04:30has not. Since Brexiter specially there has been a spike in overt acts
0:04:30 > 0:04:33of racism. But that has not been my experience. My experience is a much
0:04:33 > 0:04:36more insidious and harder to articulate racism which is based on
0:04:36 > 0:04:43400 years of history which does not disappear overnight.Thank you.
0:04:43 > 0:04:47Professor Swaran Singh, so much to go on here! So little time. 400
0:04:47 > 0:04:53years of history. What do you think about this? Some people see there is
0:04:53 > 0:04:58identity politics here. You're feeling of inferiority against
0:04:58 > 0:05:03another person's and that is what some people are saying about this.
0:05:03 > 0:05:09What is your interpretation of that? Simplistic?It is. I was assaulted
0:05:09 > 0:05:17by three white men. Since then I have seen structural and individual
0:05:17 > 0:05:22racism. And I have also seen the enormous progress Britain has made.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25I could either judge Britain by the handful of bad experiences I have
0:05:25 > 0:05:35had or the millions of ordinary everyday interactions with ordinary,
0:05:35 > 0:05:38everyday, white, British citizens. The question is whether Britain is
0:05:38 > 0:05:44racist. Compared to what? Compared to a utopian mythical society where
0:05:44 > 0:05:48nothing bad ever happens to anyone? Britain is probably racist. Compared
0:05:48 > 0:05:54to another society that has ever existed, Britain is one of the
0:05:54 > 0:06:01fairest in society. Racism certainly exists and racist people certainly
0:06:01 > 0:06:07exist but you can't judge this society wholescale. And you cannot
0:06:07 > 0:06:12use group differences and give a simplistic answer. You can't say it
0:06:12 > 0:06:17must be because of race. There are multiple factors. And identity
0:06:17 > 0:06:21politics, it is the student politics of narcissism and being
0:06:21 > 0:06:26self-centred.The student politics of narcissism? I saw you shuffling
0:06:26 > 0:06:32in your chair!It is ironic to say it is narcissistic politics when
0:06:32 > 0:06:36your whole answer was I have had good experiences in Britain. Looking
0:06:36 > 0:06:41at racism, you have got to look at the collective. You can't find any
0:06:41 > 0:06:45statistic that doesn't have a racial bias in it, not one. We could go for
0:06:45 > 0:06:50an hour. This does tell us when we're having a debate about whether
0:06:50 > 0:06:53Britain is racist. Of course it is. You want to compare to other
0:06:53 > 0:06:57countries and that is not the board. The point is that racism is in the
0:06:57 > 0:07:05DNA of this country let me finish. Let me explain. Let me explain DNA.
0:07:05 > 0:07:09That is quite afraid. I will come back to you. We have time and I have
0:07:09 > 0:07:15the inclination and you have got the voice! Look at all the guests.
0:07:15 > 0:07:19Racism, Tony Sewell, is in the DNA of this country?The Cheddar Man is
0:07:19 > 0:07:27in the DNA of this country, which is interesting. One of the points that
0:07:27 > 0:07:31has been made, which we have got to look at, is the notion of progress.
0:07:31 > 0:07:37I grew up in the same era as Cyrille Regis, the same generation, and we
0:07:37 > 0:07:42experienced day and night racism coming at us. I run a charity called
0:07:42 > 0:07:46Generating Genius, which is day and night producing probably at the
0:07:46 > 0:07:51moment in terms of statistics, talking about numbers here, probably
0:07:51 > 0:07:55more black girls now going into higher education than in the top
0:07:55 > 0:08:00results. We will probably be outstripping and beyond comparison
0:08:00 > 0:08:07with other groups at the highest level. What is happening here? I
0:08:07 > 0:08:13think you are in danger with this kind of discourse that says that
0:08:13 > 0:08:18Britain is racist therefore we can't, you will just make the lives
0:08:18 > 0:08:23of those children just the sense that we can't progress. It takes
0:08:23 > 0:08:28away the real power ad agency. Agency, the words coming out of my
0:08:28 > 0:08:35mouth. In a couple of weeks we celebrate the 70th anniversary of
0:08:35 > 0:08:41the Windrush generation. That group that came from the Caribbean and was
0:08:41 > 0:08:46asked to come over here. Massive resilience of those people that
0:08:46 > 0:08:54withstood racism and came out. What was characteristic of that
0:08:54 > 0:08:58generation, and if they were here now and speaking, they wouldn't
0:08:58 > 0:09:01recognise this notion of Britain being racist. They would see a
0:09:01 > 0:09:08massive improvement. Unless you are inside that, unless you are dealing
0:09:08 > 0:09:13with that, you can't move on, and you can't progress.Do you agree
0:09:13 > 0:09:21with people who say there is native heard going on here?Absolutely. --
0:09:21 > 0:09:27varies victimhood.
0:09:27 > 0:09:29varies victimhood. There is victimhood. I fight with people day
0:09:29 > 0:09:33and night to come out that mentality. It is like what you are
0:09:33 > 0:09:39thinking is holding you back. That is the framework. I interrupted
0:09:39 > 0:09:43Kehinde on the DNA point. I am sure you would like to pick up and
0:09:43 > 0:09:50respond.This is why I say DNA. Written's wealth was established on
0:09:50 > 0:09:53slavery, genocide and colonialism. You can have a whole session on
0:09:53 > 0:09:58that. It is. It is not just that. Why did we come in these numbers, to
0:09:58 > 0:10:04build the nation. They brought us into the country just to do their
0:10:04 > 0:10:10work. This is a really important point. It is not victimhood to
0:10:10 > 0:10:13understand that you are racially oppressed if you are black in
0:10:13 > 0:10:19Britain today. That is not victimhood. Let me explain.We have
0:10:19 > 0:10:26high achievers.Male unemployment is at crisis levels for black youths.
0:10:26 > 0:10:37Crisis points. We are doing well in our nice clothes.
0:10:38 > 0:10:39our nice clothes.Imperial College, we are overrepresented.And they
0:10:39 > 0:10:45can't get jobs.A lot of students can't get jobs.There are two really
0:10:45 > 0:10:50important jobs. Black graduates are significantly less likely to get
0:10:50 > 0:10:55jobs. We are making an argument for resistance. That is not victimhood.
0:10:55 > 0:11:03I am not a victim and I am not saying anybody is.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06saying anybody is.In Sunderland now, I could be sitting here, in
0:11:06 > 0:11:09Liverpool, I am picking up some areas, and the same argument would
0:11:09 > 0:11:21be running.There will be people who are poor if we were never here.
0:11:21 > 0:11:22Tony, Kehinde
0:11:22 > 0:11:25are poor if we were never here. Tony, Kehinde, I will be with you. I
0:11:25 > 0:11:33would be good in the classroom, wouldn't I? This film that you made.
0:11:33 > 0:11:37The Psychosis of Whiteness. Some people might think that is a racist
0:11:37 > 0:11:45title.It is a provocative title!If somebody made a film Psychosis Of
0:11:45 > 0:11:51Blackness.They Did Actually Write A Book About That.I Stand Corrected.
0:11:51 > 0:11:55We Have Just Presented All The Evidence. There Is No Evidence That
0:11:55 > 0:11:58There Is Not Racism In Britain And Things Have Improved, There Isn't.
0:11:58 > 0:12:02Instead Of Looking At It And Understanding It, We Have An
0:12:02 > 0:12:05Irrational Discussion About I Had This Great Experience And We Have
0:12:05 > 0:12:08These Graduates. The Point Of This Argument Is That Whiteness Is Not
0:12:08 > 0:12:12Just A Rational Thing That You Can Debate. For 400 Years We Have Been
0:12:12 > 0:12:17On The Right Side Of The Debate And Nothing Has Changed. The 40 Minute
0:12:17 > 0:12:23We Will Talk In Circles Because We Cannot Admit To The Elephant In A
0:12:23 > 0:12:30Room Which Is That This Country Is Racist.You Just Said There Was 40%
0:12:30 > 0:12:35Unemployment But What Other 60% Doing? They Are In Employment. How
0:12:35 > 0:12:42Does That Work?That Is Ridiculous! Sorry I am making a point.That
0:12:42 > 0:12:47stops young man from getting jobs. So why isn't it stopping that 60%?
0:12:47 > 0:12:52You could give me an answer as to why it is not affecting them
0:12:52 > 0:13:00uniformly?This is becoming about ideology and not identity and there
0:13:00 > 0:13:07is a difference.Now come in on that point?In a second. If you don't
0:13:07 > 0:13:13mind, we will come to you. You work in Leicester. Do you see racism?I
0:13:13 > 0:13:18grew up in Leicester. It is parallel, our lives, but different.
0:13:18 > 0:13:24I would have grown up poor. But with literally no racism growing up
0:13:24 > 0:13:28whatsoever, in school, around me, not at all. I grew up in mixed
0:13:28 > 0:13:38areas. Having lived in London, one of the things I really noticed was
0:13:38 > 0:13:42that people, ethnic minorities that I knew, had adopted a US centric
0:13:42 > 0:13:47idea of race. That meant that they tended to jump to racism as there go
0:13:47 > 0:13:51to. Having grown up in Leicester and environment I had, I saw it as being
0:13:51 > 0:13:56a range of different things that might occur. There might be reasons
0:13:56 > 0:13:59for negative interaction. I wouldn't always go for racism because they
0:13:59 > 0:14:02could be a perfectly good other reason for that which they didn't
0:14:02 > 0:14:07have.I am going to come back to the audience and I know Afua wants to
0:14:07 > 0:14:11come back in. I am doing the best that I can and it is never going to
0:14:11 > 0:14:18be good enough. You had your hand up. Quick points from everyone.The
0:14:18 > 0:14:23student newspaper I edit, we ran a front page a few weeks ago and we
0:14:23 > 0:14:26worked out to an investigation that only two black students in the
0:14:26 > 0:14:31horror of Oxford got firsts in the final results, compared to 850 white
0:14:31 > 0:14:35students. Part of the problem used to be that Oxford was not one to
0:14:35 > 0:14:42address that. They were unwilling to confront the colonial past that you
0:14:42 > 0:14:46looked at. Example there was a guy trying to sue Oxford for not getting
0:14:46 > 0:14:51a first, and it turned out the reason he got her 2:1 was because he
0:14:51 > 0:14:56studied Indian history and 13 out of 15 people got a low mark on it
0:14:56 > 0:15:01because Oxford is not willing to provide provision, where is it will
0:15:01 > 0:15:07for medieval European history.That is an assertion. Good morning. That
0:15:07 > 0:15:12is the microphone.I am relating to the gentleman, I couldn't get his
0:15:12 > 0:15:17name. He came to this country 30 years ago. He had a bad experience
0:15:17 > 0:15:20on the third day. I have come to this country eight years ago to do
0:15:20 > 0:15:25my masters. Taking on board your point as well, there were only two
0:15:25 > 0:15:28white people in my class and the other 23 people were from different
0:15:28 > 0:15:33countries coming in. When we are saying that there is not a balance,
0:15:33 > 0:15:37it is not just race. There are so many other factors and we need to be
0:15:37 > 0:15:44mindful of that. Race, gender, background you come from, your
0:15:44 > 0:15:48family's values, everything. Plus in eight years, I have not faced racism
0:15:48 > 0:15:53one bit. I am not from a privileged background at all. I have not faced
0:15:53 > 0:15:57racism one bit. I have not come from a privileged background. I had to
0:15:57 > 0:16:00pay for my education, three times more than the home students pay. I
0:16:00 > 0:16:04am a paying member of the society for the last seven years and I will
0:16:04 > 0:16:10be employed by a respectable company and I
0:16:12 > 0:16:14and I have a white boyfriend. It is that kind of thing! You need to look
0:16:14 > 0:16:17at it from a wider mindset. I am not saying racism is not there. Of
0:16:17 > 0:16:20course it is there. But think about it comparatively. Living in India
0:16:20 > 0:16:27for 22 years, I have seen a lot worse.
0:16:27 > 0:16:32It is, it's a caste system, and it is based on privileged and not
0:16:32 > 0:16:38privileged families. You cannot say it is not racist,.Something
0:16:38 > 0:16:43frustrating about this discussion is that we are presenting anecdote as
0:16:43 > 0:16:46evidence. I think it is a dangerous thing to do. For instance, you said
0:16:46 > 0:16:55the generation did not experience racism, what about a novel the
0:16:55 > 0:16:59Lonely Londoners, a whole experience about racism. Think about the
0:16:59 > 0:17:04writing of Claudia Jones.She is a journalist, it is an anecdote.I am
0:17:04 > 0:17:09saying there is a whole counter history. Give me one second... If we
0:17:09 > 0:17:15look at how economic inequalitys are functioning in society it is
0:17:15 > 0:17:18exacerbating racial inequalities. We have seen an increase in statutory
0:17:18 > 0:17:26homelessness across the board, a 9% increase in statutory homelessness
0:17:26 > 0:17:30for white people but 91% for Asian people. We've seen growth in youth
0:17:30 > 0:17:35unemployment which outstripped unemployment for white people. When
0:17:35 > 0:17:40it fell for white people it grew for people of colour. When we talk about
0:17:40 > 0:17:44race, I don't really care about interactions, I really don't care
0:17:44 > 0:17:48about talking about who has been mean to me. What I care about isn't
0:17:48 > 0:17:52what people say to me but what people pay me. When we draw together
0:17:52 > 0:17:57an analysis of race and class we stop looking at competing interests
0:17:57 > 0:18:01between white working class people and working class people of colour.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05We look at shed technologies of resistance.Let's get some numbers,
0:18:05 > 0:18:11it was about 2% of the population went. I went on holiday and I had a
0:18:11 > 0:18:17great time. Now it is not the case. Those days have gone.Sadly, yes.
0:18:17 > 0:18:23But let me tell you, the graduation numbers and the higher education
0:18:23 > 0:18:27minister would probably back me on this, in terms of real numbers of
0:18:27 > 0:18:31graduates coming out of universities, the ethnic minority
0:18:31 > 0:18:36level is higher than it has ever been, real-time. What you've got to
0:18:36 > 0:18:41look at, then let me tell you about numbers in terms of educational
0:18:41 > 0:18:46achievements. The groups that were traditionally failing in the past,
0:18:46 > 0:18:51the shift is moving in a completely different direction. We have
0:18:51 > 0:18:57stubborn groups...I'm afraid that isn't true. That is factually
0:18:57 > 0:19:06untrue.Let me finish, we have groups around castes, I would say.
0:19:06 > 0:19:11West African girls are outstripping everybody, in real numbers. I work
0:19:11 > 0:19:16for Haringey at the moment, we are doing a project and the numbers for
0:19:16 > 0:19:23those West African girls are outstripping everybody. They are
0:19:23 > 0:19:30real examples...Why is that happening?Because we are now in a
0:19:30 > 0:19:35situation where we are looking at almost a group that has a migrant
0:19:35 > 0:19:39mentality, similar to the wind rush mentality that looks at education
0:19:39 > 0:19:48and the achievement and parents, driving that.Aspiration?Yes. And
0:19:48 > 0:19:53this is quite important. The work that I did was one of the reasons
0:19:53 > 0:19:56why the group, particularly Afro-Caribbean boys, why they failed
0:19:56 > 0:20:01so much. We never looked at that, we were looking at race. We never
0:20:01 > 0:20:04looked at the subculture. Specifically what was going wrong in
0:20:04 > 0:20:11the family. Now we have a real comparison, other West African
0:20:11 > 0:20:18cousins are doing much better than they are.Just blame the family...!
0:20:18 > 0:20:23This is part of the problem with a right-wing ideology.Was it a
0:20:23 > 0:20:28right-wing ideology?Yes, I'm sorry. Let me look at the evidence. The
0:20:28 > 0:20:31problem is the schools, not the families. Even universities.
0:20:31 > 0:20:36Celebrate this wonder. In the schools, go to graduation and you
0:20:36 > 0:20:43are less likely to get a first or a 2:1 if you are not white. Take your
0:20:43 > 0:20:46qualification that you are so happy about in the job market committee
0:20:46 > 0:20:55still cannot get a job.Can I ask something? Is there a danger that we
0:20:55 > 0:20:58are constantly focusing on race like this and it alienates some people
0:20:58 > 0:21:05and some people think, actually, the British Empire and the appalling
0:21:05 > 0:21:08genocide of the Atlantic slave trade, it has nothing to do with me?
0:21:08 > 0:21:13And they feel a finger is being pointed at them because they are
0:21:13 > 0:21:18white? There are other Empires as well. This is what human beings do.
0:21:18 > 0:21:27They subjugate.Let me ask the question.Then you can have a go at
0:21:27 > 0:21:31me, human beings subjugate each other. If we look through history,
0:21:31 > 0:21:36the Soviet empire, the Arab empire, the Ottoman Empire, the Nigerian
0:21:36 > 0:21:41Empire, precolonial, Zimbabwe Empire with Colonial. It is the in group,
0:21:41 > 0:21:47it is the outgroup. It isn't unique to white people over the last 400
0:21:47 > 0:21:54years.This is the whole problem with this discussion. Rome has gone.
0:21:54 > 0:22:02Slavery and colonialism still happens.The after-shocks?The
0:22:02 > 0:22:07legacy, when slavery ends you have Clooney is, neocolonialism and
0:22:07 > 0:22:13racism. Black people in this country are still disadvantaged -- you have
0:22:13 > 0:22:21colonialism. You cannot just ignore the problem and say, it was in the
0:22:21 > 0:22:28past.CLAPPING The problem with using terms like
0:22:28 > 0:22:35"Whiteness" and saying that we are stuck in 400 years of history, it is
0:22:35 > 0:22:40a counsel of despair. It says nothing will ever change and nothing
0:22:40 > 0:22:50can be done. It is juvenile.Why? Why is it juvenile?It is arrested
0:22:50 > 0:22:55at a point from which you cannot shift. It is racist. What can white
0:22:55 > 0:23:00people do about their whiteness?I have some suggestions about what
0:23:00 > 0:23:05white people can do...What can you ask your white colleagues to do?If
0:23:05 > 0:23:09I blame them for whiteness, what do I expect from them? What can Britain
0:23:09 > 0:23:16do to get rid of its whiteness?This is sad, because I think actually we
0:23:16 > 0:23:21all want the same things. I think we all want a society in which we
0:23:21 > 0:23:26function on a meritocracy where it is not classed based in
0:23:26 > 0:23:31discrimination, gender-based, I'm confident we all want that. But the
0:23:31 > 0:23:35issue of race is faced with a unique hostility. If I said anti-Semitism
0:23:35 > 0:23:40is on the rise in Britain, which it is, I cannot imagine any of you
0:23:40 > 0:23:42shouting me down saying it encourages a victim mentality in
0:23:42 > 0:23:48Jewish people.We have that debate two weeks ago.I'm invested in this
0:23:48 > 0:23:52country, I live here. But the issue with race is that we are presenting
0:23:52 > 0:23:57facts that show we have a problem. If you take the blame, if you take
0:23:57 > 0:24:02whiteness out the equation, I do think whiteness is important, by the
0:24:02 > 0:24:05way, we have problems. Why is it so difficult to sit and have a
0:24:05 > 0:24:08conversation about how we overcome those problems? You can't do that if
0:24:08 > 0:24:13you pretend they don't exist.Of course we want to overcome those
0:24:13 > 0:24:19problems but you cannot do that with a complex problem with simplistic
0:24:19 > 0:24:26solutions.I agree, but...When saying is Britain racist, we should
0:24:26 > 0:24:30be saying it isn't racist, I'm from an immigrant family myself, the
0:24:30 > 0:24:33question is, are some people in Britain racist, and what should we
0:24:33 > 0:24:39do about it?I want to pick up on something that you said, we cannot
0:24:39 > 0:24:43take whiteness out of the equation...What does that mean?
0:24:43 > 0:24:47From personal experience I think a lot of white people don't understand
0:24:47 > 0:24:51whiteness. I grew up thinking whiteness was normal and neutral.
0:24:51 > 0:24:55Ethnic minority identities were something else. They were other,
0:24:55 > 0:24:58they were alien. Whiteness was constructed, like blackness.
0:24:58 > 0:25:02Whiteness was construct it for the imperial project of making British
0:25:02 > 0:25:06people believe it was justifiable to conquer and roll other countries
0:25:06 > 0:25:15because Brown is, blackness, it was savage. This is fact. That's recent
0:25:15 > 0:25:19history, my mother was born in the Empire, she was born in a colony.
0:25:19 > 0:25:24Many of us here have parents born in a colony where it was over ideology.
0:25:24 > 0:25:31We have all inherited it. I want us to understand this -- over ideology.
0:25:35 > 0:25:39For a start, the whole race identity, particularly in the USA,
0:25:39 > 0:25:45the ideological stance they had, and in South Africa, that was a more
0:25:45 > 0:25:49rigid idea of race compared to what was floating around in the UK. It
0:25:49 > 0:26:00was a post hock rationalisation. In Britain itself, it was a lot looser
0:26:00 > 0:26:05than in the US. That adoption of the US centric model, I feel it on
0:26:05 > 0:26:10myself, I know my family's concept of racism is completely different.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14And in terms of what they thought on race in India would have been
0:26:14 > 0:26:17different in their towns and villages because their concept of
0:26:17 > 0:26:23racism was not accepted. They were humanists in the first place. It was
0:26:23 > 0:26:26outright rejected. The idea that somehow I have to accept this
0:26:26 > 0:26:35concept of race now,... That is the problem.You are right to say there
0:26:35 > 0:26:38isn't a single colonial relation, there are multiple relations. You
0:26:38 > 0:26:43look at Britain's Empire, it wasn't just between white and black. You
0:26:43 > 0:26:51had an Asian petty bourgeoisie in the Caribbean.I'm talking about
0:26:51 > 0:26:56villages here.Give me a second. So you have multiple colonial relations
0:26:56 > 0:27:00and it plays out in how race works in this country. That's why you do
0:27:00 > 0:27:07not have a strict binary of race the same way we find in the US. That
0:27:07 > 0:27:10doesn't mean we didn't have institutionally racist policies
0:27:10 > 0:27:14which endure to this day. Except it is under the auspices of colour
0:27:14 > 0:27:20blind ideology. Being the right to rent policy, since it was brought
0:27:20 > 0:27:25in, criminalising landlords who let to undocumented migrants, 44% of
0:27:25 > 0:27:29landlords have said this has made them less likely to let properties
0:27:29 > 0:27:36to those that they perceive to be migrants. It's the colour of your
0:27:36 > 0:27:40skin. So here we have a racist policy.It is not a racist policy,
0:27:40 > 0:27:46that's the point. It has a racist outcome but the policy itself was
0:27:46 > 0:27:53not designed to be racist. It's an unintended consequence of something.
0:27:53 > 0:27:57It can be racist if it is not intended to be racist...Hang on a
0:27:57 > 0:28:03second. Hang on a second.You are denying the facts in front of your
0:28:03 > 0:28:11eyes!Let me take a step back and just... OK, in the audience? Anyone?
0:28:11 > 0:28:19Here it comes... Good morning!Good morning. What I wanted to say is
0:28:19 > 0:28:30that when I first heard the French parliament had out ruled the word
0:28:30 > 0:28:34because there was no such thing as "Race", I felt a rush of relief
0:28:34 > 0:28:39because I too was carrying that around, that I belonged to a race
0:28:39 > 0:28:45and it is scientifically not true. I feel like if more people, if this
0:28:45 > 0:28:51becomes common knowledge, we then take away the Cushing from under the
0:28:51 > 0:29:00races.That is the message of the Cheddar Man, in a sense?We can do
0:29:00 > 0:29:03that. It was a stroke of genius, I feel, for the French parliament to
0:29:03 > 0:29:13do that.France has no idea about the level of racism... Kehinde
0:29:13 > 0:29:15do that.France has no idea about the level of racism... Kehinde, kind
0:29:15 > 0:29:21of on that point.On the palate of pigmentation, where does it stop? It
0:29:21 > 0:29:27is a social construct, isn't it, can't you self identify? And why
0:29:27 > 0:29:33white, my black?It isn't about identity, France is a perfect
0:29:33 > 0:29:37example. It's probably one of the most racist countries in Europe. To
0:29:37 > 0:29:43say we don't see race, it makes no difference, we talk about identity
0:29:43 > 0:29:49and funny, whiteness isn't an identity, it is a politics. You can
0:29:49 > 0:29:56be Asian or black and have this psychosis of whiteness. I will say
0:29:56 > 0:30:00this, if we are presenting very clear evidence that there is racism,
0:30:00 > 0:30:04and your answer is, let me finish... Let him finish, Tarjinder
0:30:04 > 0:30:07and your answer is, let me finish... Let him finish, Tarjinder, please.
0:30:07 > 0:30:11Every statistic surrounding race is terrible. There are two answers. One
0:30:11 > 0:30:14is racism and the other is that white people are superior and that
0:30:14 > 0:30:19is why there is so much privilege. Considering it is a racist argument,
0:30:19 > 0:30:23you probably don't want to go there! Kehinde
0:30:23 > 0:30:27you probably don't want to go there! Kehinde, can black people be racist?
0:30:27 > 0:30:30Yes, we can reinforce these ideas yes. It's about the system, not
0:30:30 > 0:30:37about like or dislike.Can black people be racist towards white
0:30:37 > 0:30:41people?It isn't an individual thing, that is the worst way to
0:30:41 > 0:30:45think about racism. It is about the structure and the ideology, the
0:30:45 > 0:30:48system and those things. Not about whether you don't might Asian
0:30:48 > 0:30:56people, that is not the question.On one hand you talk about nuance, then
0:30:56 > 0:31:02the blanket term of whiteness. CLAPPING
0:31:05 > 0:31:14And if I don't agree with you, I'm white?
0:31:14 > 0:31:18white?Ash, start again.Why is it that white people hate hearing the
0:31:18 > 0:31:24word they invented for themselves? They invented for themselves?It is
0:31:24 > 0:31:36true. If you look at it, it was invented in the slavery feels.But
0:31:36 > 0:31:41it is a monolith, everybody thinking the same way.Historically it is a
0:31:41 > 0:31:49fact. It is a fact. If you look at...
0:31:49 > 0:31:57at... Recently, The Invention Of The White Race.It is an anecdote.It is
0:31:57 > 0:32:02a history book. You can't call it an anecdote. All human knowledge is an
0:32:02 > 0:32:05anecdote. This is the well researched historical book which
0:32:05 > 0:32:10looks at the codification of whiteness in legal terms. This was
0:32:10 > 0:32:14basically invented to justify horrific practices on the
0:32:14 > 0:32:18plantations. And to justify a system of political economy. When we say
0:32:18 > 0:32:22that something is a social construct that doesn't just mean it is fake.
0:32:22 > 0:32:25It has real outcomes but it means it can be unpicked through social
0:32:25 > 0:32:29processes and that is what we are talking about. I think we need to
0:32:29 > 0:32:32start talking about what those social processes that can unpick the
0:32:32 > 0:32:38structure of whiteness at what they might look like.What about the
0:32:38 > 0:32:41working class people in this country who have been oppressed for so many
0:32:41 > 0:32:45years by the same people who had the plantations? They are not in that
0:32:45 > 0:32:52monolith of evil white people.And I am talking about class solidarity
0:32:52 > 0:32:56which is important.Scientific racism is bad for everybody. It was
0:32:56 > 0:33:01used to justify black and Asian people's inferiority. And it was
0:33:01 > 0:33:06used to persuade white working class people to accept horrific conditions
0:33:06 > 0:33:08on the basis of inherited inferiority. This is history and I
0:33:08 > 0:33:11am pleased to say there are many academics in the mainstream who
0:33:11 > 0:33:16recognise this. This discussion is not reflective of the level of
0:33:16 > 0:33:19progress we have made, thank God. If we were still here debating whether
0:33:19 > 0:33:24whiteness exists, we would be so far behind there would be no hope.We
0:33:24 > 0:33:32need to find some road ahead. How do we head towards a better society,
0:33:32 > 0:33:41are less racist society?You don't want to go there.You don't?He
0:33:41 > 0:33:48wanted to be bad. He needs it to be bad and I will tell you why. Because
0:33:48 > 0:33:59his politics around recognition, in order to be recognised, in order to
0:33:59 > 0:34:02justify the ideas that he has, he needs the sense that he will always
0:34:02 > 0:34:09be a victim. Apparently it is bad. That is bad for black people and
0:34:09 > 0:34:14working class white people and I will tell you why. What it doesn't
0:34:14 > 0:34:17understand is where there is progress, where there is agency,
0:34:17 > 0:34:21where there is the ability to change, where there is the ability
0:34:21 > 0:34:26to go into yourself and make a difference, that has been the power
0:34:26 > 0:34:32that took us off the plantations in the first place.You can have agency
0:34:32 > 0:34:38and politics at the same time. They coexist.
0:34:39 > 0:34:43coexist.A lot of young people will believe that they can't progress
0:34:43 > 0:34:47because there is an ideology out there.Can I come to you for the
0:34:47 > 0:34:52question again?Believe doesn't change incarceration rates. We
0:34:52 > 0:34:58cannot inspire our way out of poverty.Let me ask... Wait a
0:34:58 > 0:35:03minute, everybody. You are doing it again. Let me ask you the question.
0:35:03 > 0:35:06Not responded to him but the question that brings us to a
0:35:06 > 0:35:10conclusion. What do white people need to do?I think those comments
0:35:10 > 0:35:15are ironic given that there are some people because they are black and
0:35:15 > 0:35:19they say what white people want to hear, they get a platform.That is
0:35:19 > 0:35:23not me. What do white people need to do?My politics is all about what do
0:35:23 > 0:35:27we need to do and how we need to organise and resist. There are
0:35:27 > 0:35:34plenty of things that we can do.As, what do white people need to do?I
0:35:34 > 0:35:37think there are policies that are winnable and we can work together
0:35:37 > 0:35:41towards them. We get rid of the hostile environment immigration
0:35:41 > 0:35:47policy which turns
0:35:50 > 0:35:51policy which turns doctors, teachers, landlords, into border
0:35:51 > 0:35:53guards. We can get rid of that.A lot of other minority people are
0:35:53 > 0:35:56against immigration at the level that we have.The last of the boat
0:35:56 > 0:35:59syndrome. If you assimilate into a racist ideology, you think you can
0:35:59 > 0:36:03benefit from it but that is a load of rubbish. People of colour need to
0:36:03 > 0:36:09express more solidarity with each other. At the things we can do is
0:36:09 > 0:36:12address incarceration rates by looking at non-custodial solutions
0:36:12 > 0:36:16to non-violent crime. And a third thing we can do, look at ethnic
0:36:16 > 0:36:19minority education grants which have since been got rid of under the
0:36:19 > 0:36:23Conservative government. That was effective at reducing the attainment
0:36:23 > 0:36:29gap. And we can look at those types of grants to look at geographical
0:36:29 > 0:36:30disparities, class disparities, things that overall benefit
0:36:30 > 0:36:36everybody.There are things you don't take into account. Ethnicity
0:36:36 > 0:36:40is something you don't take into account.I am so sorry. We have got
0:36:40 > 0:36:44to finish that debate because we have got more to discuss but it
0:36:44 > 0:36:50segues into education quite nicely. Afua
0:36:50 > 0:36:52segues into education quite nicely. Afua, it is a wonderfully
0:36:52 > 0:36:55provocative book very interesting, Brit-ish, and I appreciate you
0:36:55 > 0:36:59coming to talk about it. A lot of people spoke. People might not agree
0:36:59 > 0:37:02with it but it is worth breeding because it gets you thinking and
0:37:02 > 0:37:11there is nothing wrong with that. -- it is worth rereading it.
0:37:11 > 0:37:13You can join in all this morning's debates by logging
0:37:13 > 0:37:15on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and following the link
0:37:15 > 0:37:16to the online discussion.
0:37:16 > 0:37:18Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq.
0:37:18 > 0:37:20Tell us what you think about our last big question too.
0:37:20 > 0:37:22Is the higher education system fit for purpose?
0:37:22 > 0:37:26And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience at a future show you
0:37:26 > 0:37:27can email audiencetbq@mentorn.tv.
0:37:27 > 0:37:30We're in Leicester next week, then Bath on February 25th,
0:37:30 > 0:37:31and Edinburgh the week after that.
0:37:31 > 0:37:41That is my hometown. Oh, dear! I tell you!
0:37:41 > 0:37:45Now that students are getting in debt to the tune of up to £50,000
0:37:45 > 0:37:47for a university education, they are being far more critical
0:37:47 > 0:37:50of exactly what they have bought.
0:37:50 > 0:37:52This week, one Oxford history graduate lost his bid to sue
0:37:52 > 0:37:55the university because he didn't get a first.
0:37:55 > 0:38:01We heard about that earlier from one of our audience contributors.
0:38:01 > 0:38:04He blamed negligently inadequate teaching and said this has had
0:38:04 > 0:38:06a marked deleterious effect on his subsequent legal career.
0:38:06 > 0:38:08And students are demanding compensation if their lecturers take
0:38:08 > 0:38:09industrial action later this month.
0:38:09 > 0:38:11Cancelled lectures, tutorials and seminars
0:38:11 > 0:38:17might blight their future chances, they're arguing.
0:38:17 > 0:38:19A university education is now something young people invest
0:38:19 > 0:38:24in heavily expecting a good return.
0:38:24 > 0:38:27But on Monday, Robert Halfon, chair of the Education Select Committee,
0:38:27 > 0:38:31said the returns were now paltry and between a fifth and a third
0:38:31 > 0:38:33of students ended up in jobs that didn't require a degree
0:38:33 > 0:38:35in the first place.
0:38:35 > 0:38:38Yet swathes of British industry says it can't find the people
0:38:38 > 0:38:40with the skills it needs for the future.
0:38:40 > 0:38:44Is the higher education system fit for purpose?
0:38:44 > 0:38:52Robert, you are here. Excellent. I was very lucky. I got a grant. I'd
0:38:52 > 0:38:55went to university and those are very different days. Why is it not
0:38:55 > 0:39:01fit for purpose now?Between one third and a fifth of students are
0:39:01 > 0:39:05not getting good graduates skilled jobs at the moment. We face the rise
0:39:05 > 0:39:11of the robots. 28% of jobs done by young people will be lost to robots
0:39:11 > 0:39:17by 2030. How universities are not doing enough on skills. We need to
0:39:17 > 0:39:21do a lot more on apprenticeships. We do not have enough disadvantaged
0:39:21 > 0:39:25people getting into the best universities and getting good job
0:39:25 > 0:39:30outcomes at the end.Is it all about job outcome?It must be about the
0:39:30 > 0:39:34skills because we have the march of the robots coming. We have a huge
0:39:34 > 0:39:38problem in our country. We should be putting money into apprenticeships
0:39:38 > 0:39:41and degree apprenticeships and withholding money from universities
0:39:41 > 0:39:52who don't offer those. It is a shame that we are approximate and Oxford
0:39:52 > 0:39:54will not offer degree apprenticeships. Cambridge have
0:39:54 > 0:39:56announced an apprenticeship programme only last week. We need to
0:39:56 > 0:39:58dramatically change how we think about higher education.Is it
0:39:58 > 0:40:00entirely about preparing young people for the world of work? Isn't
0:40:00 > 0:40:04it about expanding young people's mines and giving them an experience?
0:40:04 > 0:40:11Of course but if you want an experience, go to Alton Towers.That
0:40:11 > 0:40:16diminishes it!What university must be about his intellectual
0:40:16 > 0:40:19development and preparing you for the world of work and skills because
0:40:19 > 0:40:23that is the world we are about to enter.We have had some lines on
0:40:23 > 0:40:26this programme over the years.I would like to make it very clear
0:40:26 > 0:40:30that I agree with Robert that this country needs to invest much more
0:40:30 > 0:40:33heavily in apprenticeships. But it isn't necessarily universities who
0:40:33 > 0:40:39should be providing them. I would also like to pick up on a point
0:40:39 > 0:40:43which seems to me to be a contradiction in Robert's speech,
0:40:43 > 0:40:47which I have had the pleasure to read. He talks about automation
0:40:47 > 0:40:51removing a lot of jobs. Precisely the kind of skills we need for we
0:40:51 > 0:40:54don't know what they will be, the jobs in the future, problem-solving
0:40:54 > 0:41:01of kinds we can't imagine, it is the mental agility that what you call
0:41:01 > 0:41:06scathingly a full academic degree, it is a mental agility that a degree
0:41:06 > 0:41:10gives you, the scrutiny of sources, production of your perception of
0:41:10 > 0:41:13your own capacities and knowledge to zero and then building back up
0:41:13 > 0:41:17through the challenging of your assumptions. It doesn't matter that
0:41:17 > 0:41:22much what the subject is. And being a Renaissance studies scholar, I am
0:41:22 > 0:41:27often told it is airy fairy nonsense but it is not the subject. When
0:41:27 > 0:41:31students come to my seminars, they think they will not be interested in
0:41:31 > 0:41:3616th century culture but they are fascinated by the processes. What is
0:41:36 > 0:41:43true and what isn't? It is skills, those are skills. Tell me what the
0:41:43 > 0:41:48employer skills are?You get intellectual involvement in every
0:41:48 > 0:41:52single degree you do. But where we have a big problem in our country is
0:41:52 > 0:41:56we are way behind, and this has been going on for years, we are behind
0:41:56 > 0:42:04many other countries in skills.What are the skills?
0:42:04 > 0:42:05are the skills?Manufacturing, engineering, health care,
0:42:05 > 0:42:10technology. We are about to face a huge amount of automation and we
0:42:10 > 0:42:14need to transform education system to reflect that. All degrees,
0:42:14 > 0:42:18including yours, every degree gives people intellectual development as
0:42:18 > 0:42:22you have described. But we need to change the system to make sure that
0:42:22 > 0:42:27our younger people can get to the education and opportunities and job
0:42:27 > 0:42:31prospects that they need but also that the country needs.I would just
0:42:31 > 0:42:35like to come back to Nicky's point because you say it is about job
0:42:35 > 0:42:41security. One of the reports produced by Nick's organisation
0:42:41 > 0:42:46recently talks about which students go into higher education and what
0:42:46 > 0:42:52for. We talk about an impoverished view of it, the only value being
0:42:52 > 0:42:56financial benefit, which is an individual benefit. But higher
0:42:56 > 0:43:01education has been shown in a report a while back called Too Good To
0:43:01 > 0:43:07Fail, it has shown that are highly educated populace Scott Speed is not
0:43:07 > 0:43:10just to the prophet of the country but its social cohesion, the lack of
0:43:10 > 0:43:19prejudice in a country as well. That takes us back to the earlier point.
0:43:19 > 0:43:24Your view of education is very limited. It seems to only be about
0:43:24 > 0:43:31jobs. But students themselves in this report say that we go in for
0:43:31 > 0:43:36fascination. For enjoyment. For interest.You are taking a £50,000
0:43:36 > 0:43:40alone. What is the purpose if you don't want a good job at the end?
0:43:40 > 0:43:47That is why students go to university.Let me bring Matteo in.
0:43:47 > 0:43:50He has come to talk about this and I want to give him a chance to do so.
0:43:50 > 0:43:55And of people want to contribute. 80% of kids in Singapore go to
0:43:55 > 0:44:00university and it is working for them.It is a different set-up. It
0:44:00 > 0:44:04is more about the universities themselves and the way they market
0:44:04 > 0:44:07themselves that what they deliver. Not too long ago the university was
0:44:07 > 0:44:11free and you went for that reason, to expand your mind and understand
0:44:11 > 0:44:17more about your subject, whatever it may be. Fine, yes, but nowadays with
0:44:17 > 0:44:23tuition fees, it has become more about employment and that is what
0:44:23 > 0:44:26universities sell themselves as. Come to university, get a degree and
0:44:26 > 0:44:32a job and move on, and that is not the case. We have been lied to in
0:44:32 > 0:44:36that respect. Universities have not moved forward.That isn't right. We
0:44:36 > 0:44:41have been lied to and it came from the Tony Blair days principally. I
0:44:41 > 0:44:43believe that was partly due to getting people often employment
0:44:43 > 0:44:54list. Let's say he has pure views and it was about getting people into
0:44:54 > 0:44:59education...What would you say to a young, working-class man or woman.I
0:44:59 > 0:45:02haven't finished.Answer this and then finish your point. It comes
0:45:02 > 0:45:07from what you have just said. What would you say to a young working
0:45:07 > 0:45:12class man or woman who might be the first person of his or her family
0:45:12 > 0:45:16ever to get to university? Might they be wasting their time?I hear
0:45:16 > 0:45:20your point and I say that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that
0:45:20 > 0:45:24the person takes the right fit for their future life. What is the point
0:45:24 > 0:45:37of going to university and ending up with a to: or 2:2 which might be
0:45:37 > 0:45:39challenged by their employer? I've interviewed thousands of graduates
0:45:39 > 0:45:43and I look at their character and personality and if they have got a
0:45:43 > 0:45:462:2 they have got to explain to me why they spent five years going
0:45:46 > 0:45:51through A-levels and a degree only to get a 2:2. Where is the sense of
0:45:51 > 0:45:58achievement? How do they demonstrate to me with a 2:2 just from their
0:45:58 > 0:46:04education that they are actually worth coming into my business.
0:46:04 > 0:46:08Higher education is like marriage, it works out for most people most of
0:46:08 > 0:46:14the time. There are a few people for whom it does not work out. Going to
0:46:14 > 0:46:17university earns you more money makes you less likely to become
0:46:17 > 0:46:23employed...There are a lot of people it doesn't work for.John...
0:46:23 > 0:46:28I want to hear from Nick.There's a long list of benefits. They are not
0:46:28 > 0:46:32all financial. You earn more, you are more likely to have a well-paid
0:46:32 > 0:46:35job. You are more likely to have better mental health if you have
0:46:35 > 0:46:39been to university and engaged in your local community. You are less
0:46:39 > 0:46:43likely to go to prison and live longer. Many people meet their life
0:46:43 > 0:46:48partners. I met the mother of my children at university and my wife.
0:46:48 > 0:46:52That may not necessarily be because they went to university, there may
0:46:52 > 0:46:56be other factors. It may not be cause and effect.The academic
0:46:56 > 0:47:00comparisons, they take people who could go to university but have
0:47:00 > 0:47:03chosen not to and they compare them to people who have been. You did
0:47:03 > 0:47:08well going to university, the member parliament has, I have. University
0:47:08 > 0:47:12works out for most people most of the time. I agree with many of the
0:47:12 > 0:47:16things that Robert Halfon and the rest of his committee does, I agree
0:47:16 > 0:47:20with a lot of what he says but he is slightly forgetting a modern
0:47:20 > 0:47:25university, we are in Oxford, it doesn't just have Oxford University
0:47:25 > 0:47:29but they have Oxford Brookes where they train nurses and teachers,
0:47:29 > 0:47:36then...But why should they not offer apprenticeships? You earn
0:47:36 > 0:47:39while you learn and you have no debt. You get the skills that John
0:47:39 > 0:47:48is talking about.Let's hear from the gentleman in the T-shirt.Good
0:47:48 > 0:47:55morning. I am shocked by what you said.Robert Halfon?Yes, it's
0:47:55 > 0:48:00awful. Every single person deserves to go and do a degree and it is up
0:48:00 > 0:48:04to that person to have the drive to go and get that job. Even if it
0:48:04 > 0:48:08means going to other jobs that they don't want to do until they get them
0:48:08 > 0:48:13back. So long as they have focus and drive they will get there. You
0:48:13 > 0:48:17should be focusing on discouraging people from going and getting
0:48:17 > 0:48:19degrees and brainwashing them into thinking that they should just go
0:48:19 > 0:48:25and get any job. You should think about getting agriculture bringing
0:48:25 > 0:48:28the YTS scheme back, a modern version where people go and finish
0:48:28 > 0:48:35school and go into a vacation, for example, maybe it is electricity or
0:48:35 > 0:48:40plumbing, building, or even retail. I work in retail myself. You should
0:48:40 > 0:48:43be looking at doing that. Not discouraging people from going to
0:48:43 > 0:48:50university. And trying to blame teachers and universities.Let me
0:48:50 > 0:48:59take it to the audience a bit.Good morning. Debbie Williams. I didn't
0:48:59 > 0:49:04go to university and we did really well. We currently employ 24 people,
0:49:04 > 0:49:10six of whom are apprentices. There's a massive skills gap in the current
0:49:10 > 0:49:15market and I believe people can go to university of that is what they
0:49:15 > 0:49:17choose and I believe apprenticeships play a big part in meeting our
0:49:17 > 0:49:24economy forward.Absolutely.
0:49:24 > 0:49:28So far we have focused on the idea of the student has a customer.
0:49:28 > 0:49:34That's a really unhealthy model for thinking about education. Since the
0:49:34 > 0:49:41£9,000 fees came in, there's been a 0.5 increase in dropout rates. They
0:49:41 > 0:49:45are having to work while they do a degree. Their workloads increase and
0:49:45 > 0:49:48they are beset with economic anxiety. Let me raise a point about
0:49:48 > 0:49:53what university is like as an employer. For my sins I am also a
0:49:53 > 0:49:59lecturer in politics at Anglia Ruskin. I'm proud to work in this
0:49:59 > 0:50:05job but because of the contract I am on, it works out that I am earning
0:50:05 > 0:50:08sometimes under the minimum wage of I have a lot of marking. We talk
0:50:08 > 0:50:14about the quality of teaching but you cannot get back kind of quality
0:50:14 > 0:50:19-- that kind of quality on the cheap but the vice Chancellor 's play has
0:50:19 > 0:50:24skyrocketed. These conditions don't rust effect academic staff, they
0:50:24 > 0:50:28affect cleaners, porters, security, catering staff. Rather than looking
0:50:28 > 0:50:34at an education that is something extracted by students as customers
0:50:34 > 0:50:40by unwilling and incompetent academics, let's look at unequal pay
0:50:40 > 0:50:42structures in universities, and how it negatively affects anyone who is
0:50:42 > 0:50:48not academic.At the moment, I feel like I am on my own in this world. I
0:50:48 > 0:50:53should be the Minister for money or whatever for the government.I run a
0:50:53 > 0:51:02charity. Chancellor of the Exchequer? Minister for Money!
0:51:02 > 0:51:08Hundreds of students are put into universities from disadvantaged
0:51:08 > 0:51:12backgrounds. We use the Chelsea football club model. Where students
0:51:12 > 0:51:16begin with us when they are aged 14. We have a relationship with the
0:51:16 > 0:51:23university that means they adopt them, and we work through them and
0:51:23 > 0:51:26then they are attached to the university and they get through on
0:51:26 > 0:51:31that basis. For me, I think the problem is that we are confusing two
0:51:31 > 0:51:37things. I think the
0:51:37 > 0:51:39things. I think the issue with skills surrounds science and that
0:51:39 > 0:51:45area. Convincing our young people that that is an area they should go
0:51:45 > 0:51:48into. Universities have to change that game, it has to be one where
0:51:48 > 0:51:53they are engaging students at a younger level. This private school,
0:51:53 > 0:51:59where we are in the studio at the moment, it looks like a Cambridge
0:51:59 > 0:52:06college. Our state schools do not reflect that. There is a
0:52:06 > 0:52:10disadvantage in the routes that we have, getting to those top
0:52:10 > 0:52:18universities.I agree, I came to Oxford from a comprehensive, and as
0:52:18 > 0:52:25an academic, I will take the floor for a second, my family two
0:52:25 > 0:52:31generations ago were miners, I am a success in that sense but
0:52:31 > 0:52:37universities do need to engage lower down, but we are. I am the Access
0:52:37 > 0:52:41Officer, I hate that word, it suggests normal people from state
0:52:41 > 0:52:47schools are abnormal in a way that I have worked with ten-year-olds. We
0:52:47 > 0:52:52inspire early on. Could I move onto Robert's point and the lady in the
0:52:52 > 0:52:57audience? We all agree that this country desperately needs to invest
0:52:57 > 0:53:03in apprenticeships, no question. But on Robert's proposal of imposing in
0:53:03 > 0:53:08his ideal up to 50% of degrees in universities is being degree
0:53:08 > 0:53:11apprenticeships, that's a bit problematic. If you are a young
0:53:11 > 0:53:18student who lends technical skills, great. Follow that route.
0:53:18 > 0:53:24Absolutely. But I am slightly worried by the fact that Rob thinks
0:53:24 > 0:53:26he is helping particularly underprivileged kids by
0:53:26 > 0:53:30apprenticeship skills. You are shutting down the possibility for
0:53:30 > 0:53:42that kid to be a judge or a lawyer. Some points from the audience now?
0:53:42 > 0:53:46Thank you., is higher education fit for purpose? We need to rewind it
0:53:46 > 0:53:50back and say, is education fit for purpose? Take it back to secondary
0:53:50 > 0:53:55schools. I firmly believe that your passions and abilities are in your
0:53:55 > 0:54:00early teenage years. They were for me and they were not exploited. It
0:54:00 > 0:54:05was a generation ago, as you can probably tell, they may be better,
0:54:05 > 0:54:08that's cool, now, but people can concentrate on their abilities a lot
0:54:08 > 0:54:15younger. You should be asking questions at universities about your
0:54:15 > 0:54:19abilities and interests. I'm a self-made man. My education didn't
0:54:19 > 0:54:25help me in that at all. I've done it myself, basically.You are a
0:54:25 > 0:54:30self-made man costume atUniversity is vital to society. I absolutely
0:54:30 > 0:54:34agree, who couldn't? But there is more to life than university. What
0:54:34 > 0:54:40we need to do is identify young people's skills as early as
0:54:40 > 0:54:45possible, somebody mentioned the YTS scheme, I had a lot of YTSs in my
0:54:45 > 0:54:49business which allowed them to find out what job they wanted to do. We
0:54:49 > 0:54:54need to put a lot more effort into identifying people's skills, playing
0:54:54 > 0:54:59to those skills and encouraging them down the right route. Whether that
0:54:59 > 0:55:04is university, to develop into professional careers like judges and
0:55:04 > 0:55:08lawyers and so one, or whether it is skills. Whether it's a plumber or an
0:55:08 > 0:55:13engineer. Only give you an example...Am afraid we don't have
0:55:13 > 0:55:22time. We are running out of time.As I said, all degrees ensure
0:55:22 > 0:55:25intellectual development which is important but with the march of the
0:55:25 > 0:55:29robots and with the skills we need for the future, we need to change
0:55:29 > 0:55:33how we look at things. In terms of apprenticeships, about 25% of
0:55:33 > 0:55:38apprenticeships come from the poorest of areas in the country.
0:55:38 > 0:55:44They are incredible educational lands of opportunity. For many
0:55:44 > 0:55:50people. You do apprenticeships, there are legal apprenticeships,
0:55:50 > 0:55:53there are a prince ships for every single thing. We need to change how
0:55:53 > 0:56:04we think of our system and the skills we have.Wait a minute, we
0:56:04 > 0:56:07need to change...We are talking about education and university as if
0:56:07 > 0:56:11it is the be all and end all of education. The idea that a degree is
0:56:11 > 0:56:16the pinnacle of where you can get. Not at all, I said there were many
0:56:16 > 0:56:23different routes.We are thinking about other routes for kids.Someone
0:56:23 > 0:56:27in the audience mentioned secondary schools. When you go to secondary
0:56:27 > 0:56:32schools, the only option that you were often given by the careers
0:56:32 > 0:56:35adviser was University or working in a menial job. You are never given a
0:56:35 > 0:56:43myriad of options.
0:56:43 > 0:56:47myriad of options.And amused by this conversation. John's company
0:56:47 > 0:56:50needs accountants, those who made the telephones, designers, many of
0:56:50 > 0:56:55whom have been to university. Nobody is saying 100% of people should go
0:56:55 > 0:57:00to university, and saying 70% but nobody is saying 100%. For a lot of
0:57:00 > 0:57:06people it isn't the right thing. But we do need the best apprenticeships.
0:57:06 > 0:57:12They now end with a degree. The final destination is the same place.
0:57:12 > 0:57:19Not a degree in Renaissance studies...What an easy Dick there!
0:57:19 > 0:57:25I argued very strongly for the mental agility
0:57:25 > 0:57:33-- that was an easy dig there. I argued very strongly for the mental
0:57:33 > 0:57:44agility.I feel bad now, I actually agree, I was just poking around!
0:57:44 > 0:57:50agree, I was just poking around! I did history. Useless! Have a cup of
0:57:50 > 0:57:59coffee afterwards. Felt hurt.It's all right, I can cope with it!
0:58:00 > 0:58:03all right, I can cope with it!No snowflakes. That is the problem,
0:58:03 > 0:58:07isn't it?I don't think we have the time to get into that discussion!
0:58:07 > 0:58:07John Cooney you
0:58:11 > 0:58:18-- John Cone you said you would give an example? I was lucky, I had an
0:58:18 > 0:58:22apprenticeship and it was a phenomenal experience, through to
0:58:22 > 0:58:29working on the factory, the day release to
0:58:29 > 0:58:35an two nights a week I had to really grasp.I had a qualification in that
0:58:35 > 0:58:43work time. I came out fully qualified. What better way to train!
0:58:43 > 0:58:47Thank you for joining us, Leicester next week. Thank you so much. Have a
0:58:47 > 0:58:54great Sunday! APPLAUSE