0:00:04 > 0:00:06Today on The Big Questions...
0:00:06 > 0:00:08What to do with returnees from Islamic State?
0:00:08 > 0:00:10And schools - should they be able to pick
0:00:10 > 0:00:18their pupils from one religion?
0:00:28 > 0:00:32Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34Today we're live from Leicester Grammar School in Leicester.
0:00:34 > 0:00:41Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46Yesterday was the third anniversary of the three Bethnal Green
0:00:46 > 0:00:48schoolgirls - Amira, Shamima and Kadiza - running away
0:00:48 > 0:00:51to join Isis in Syria.
0:00:51 > 0:00:57Two were just 15 and one was 16.
0:00:57 > 0:00:59Kadiza is thought to have died in an air strike
0:00:59 > 0:01:01while trying to escape in 2016.
0:01:01 > 0:01:03The whereabouts of the other two is unknown.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06And earlier this week, the capture of two surviving
0:01:06 > 0:01:08so-called "Beatles" - Londoners who carried
0:01:08 > 0:01:09out many executions
0:01:09 > 0:01:11for so-called Islamic State, led to a diplomatic row
0:01:11 > 0:01:13between the UK and the United States.
0:01:13 > 0:01:15The American Defence Secretary ruled out sending them to Guantanamo Bay,
0:01:15 > 0:01:18saying they should be tried in their country of origin.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21But Britain's Defence Secretary, Gavin Williamson, said they should
0:01:21 > 0:01:24not be allowed to return to Britain to face trial.
0:01:24 > 0:01:28They should pay the price for their crimes in Syria.
0:01:28 > 0:01:34Yet the number of foreign fighters returning home poses a real threat
0:01:34 > 0:01:37to the safety of the UK and Europe, according to Jane's Terrorism
0:01:37 > 0:01:43and Insurgency Centre, because they'll be returning skilled
0:01:43 > 0:01:46in the use of weapons like armed drones, IEDs and the industrialised
0:01:46 > 0:01:47manufacture of car bombs.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49So, what should be done about them?
0:01:49 > 0:01:57Should all IS returnees to Britain be punished?
0:02:00 > 0:02:04Henna Rai, good morning. So the girls from Bethnal Green, what
0:02:04 > 0:02:11happened to the other two? We know that Kadiza is dead.We have no
0:02:11 > 0:02:15idea, winner of the Intel is limited but we know their fate will not have
0:02:15 > 0:02:21been dissimilar to what Kadiza ended up going through, how she was killed
0:02:21 > 0:02:27trying to escape.It was a teenage fantasy.It was, it is a difficult
0:02:27 > 0:02:34one because I don't look at these girls different to any victims of
0:02:34 > 0:02:41child exploitation. One of them, to correct you, was 14 going on 15 out
0:02:41 > 0:02:45of the three, I cannot remember exactly which one, but one was 14.
0:02:45 > 0:02:51At that age, when they should have been fantasising about I don't know,
0:02:51 > 0:03:00Zayn Malik...That's what it was, a teenage adolescent fantasy, an
0:03:00 > 0:03:05Islamic warrior with a six-pack.I don't think it was even the notion
0:03:05 > 0:03:10of the guy being an Islamic warrior, this was a man, a boy, a 20
0:03:10 > 0:03:15something -year-old with a six pack, with biceps, extremely attractive,
0:03:15 > 0:03:18talking to these young girls and telling them what they wanted to
0:03:18 > 0:03:25hear. These girls were going through hormonal changes, there's a lot of
0:03:25 > 0:03:35issues, internal issues going on, GCSEs, family rebellion, whatever.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38They must have known what was going on.I think the naivete would have
0:03:38 > 0:03:41stepped in because when you are young and impressionable teenager
0:03:41 > 0:03:46and someone is telling you how beautiful you are, you are
0:03:46 > 0:03:50beautiful, I'm going to make you my queen, you will have servants at
0:03:50 > 0:03:55your beck and call, you will be my princess, giving them in effect an
0:03:55 > 0:03:59Islamic Disneyland or notion of living in the kingdom where they
0:03:59 > 0:04:08would be the ruler and they would be given exactly what they wanted, and
0:04:08 > 0:04:13being coerced into making that choice.Having personal autonomy
0:04:13 > 0:04:20perhaps for the first time. Absolutely because Kadiza's sister,
0:04:20 > 0:04:25after the news came that she was killed, said Kadiza never made any
0:04:25 > 0:04:29choices in her life, all of the choices were made for her, whether
0:04:29 > 0:04:33it was her clothes, what she ate, what schooling she received,
0:04:33 > 0:04:37watching watched on television, this was the only choice is she ever made
0:04:37 > 0:04:41and it was the wrong choice. That is what we have seen happening here.
0:04:41 > 0:04:46It's no different to the girls in Rochdale who ended up falling for
0:04:46 > 0:04:51the charms of these people, whether it was online or in person.Does
0:04:51 > 0:04:57this apply to the young boys who go as well?To some extent because the
0:04:57 > 0:05:09same manner of grooming takes place. Do you have any sympathy at all,
0:05:09 > 0:05:15Macer Gifford?No because Islamic State from the very beginning has
0:05:15 > 0:05:19been decapitating people, it has been butchering the people of Syria,
0:05:19 > 0:05:28it's made its views on everything from Jews... Everything.They don't
0:05:28 > 0:05:33talk about decapitating. You cannot say a 14-year-old can groom
0:05:33 > 0:05:37themselves. Girls are impressionable.Do not compare these
0:05:37 > 0:05:42young ladies who sought out extremist material, watched online
0:05:42 > 0:05:46people having their heads cut off and agreed with that, they allowed
0:05:46 > 0:05:54themselves.Did they see that material?They all did.No, it is
0:05:54 > 0:05:58disingenuous for you to make this accusation because these girls were
0:05:58 > 0:06:04groomed on the basis of love and affection.Did they watch the
0:06:04 > 0:06:08mainstream media?We don't know that. I feel they may have seen some
0:06:08 > 0:06:12aliments of what was happening but a lot of Muslim girls we have spoken
0:06:12 > 0:06:19to, people like Mike colleagues have spoken to, have likened this to an
0:06:19 > 0:06:22Islamic Disneyland where they will be afforded rights. The manner in
0:06:22 > 0:06:27which these girls are groomed is we are giving you rights to do what you
0:06:27 > 0:06:32want, you will be in charge here, you will be playing the role and you
0:06:32 > 0:06:37have an important is for us. Giving those girls a sense of importance
0:06:37 > 0:06:43and belonging is how...And being wanted. Nicola, your son was killed
0:06:43 > 0:06:48in a drone strike, which was awful for your family. Was he given a
0:06:48 > 0:06:55sense of importance and belonging? Absolutely, he was sold a lie. What
0:06:55 > 0:07:00he was sold was the fact that if you are good Muslim, not just a Muslim
0:07:00 > 0:07:04but a good Muslim, this is the journey you have to make and that's
0:07:04 > 0:07:08why he gave up all of his family, who he loved very dearly, and
0:07:08 > 0:07:15decided to be a really good Muslim because that's ultimately as a faith
0:07:15 > 0:07:18tells us that I should do this and this is what will take me to
0:07:18 > 0:07:24paradise. It was also the lifestyle that they sold to him, this utopian
0:07:24 > 0:07:29lifestyle. Even when he was in contact in Syria, she was in regular
0:07:29 > 0:07:34contact with me once he went out there after a couple of months and I
0:07:34 > 0:07:38would call it even a honeymoon period. He was very much sold in the
0:07:38 > 0:07:42part where he felt these were his brothers, that they were looking
0:07:42 > 0:07:48after him well. Until the reality set in.Who became a fighter, didn't
0:07:48 > 0:07:58he?Yes, but he was very ill equipped.What was he doing
0:07:58 > 0:08:02initially?He was put in the camp for about 64 days, initially they
0:08:02 > 0:08:04put him in for 30 days but this I understand he was kept in their
0:08:04 > 0:08:12longer because what I've heard is they couldn't break him. But we have
0:08:12 > 0:08:16kind of almost brought him up too well and they were finding it
0:08:16 > 0:08:21difficult to get him to buy into what they wanted him to carry out.
0:08:21 > 0:08:26When they finally released him, then he was just in civilian life but
0:08:26 > 0:08:32then after several weeks...Working in the bureaucracy there?Just
0:08:32 > 0:08:39generally helping out day to day. It was after some weeks, then they just
0:08:39 > 0:08:45wanted, again it was about numbers and they just sent him out to fight.
0:08:45 > 0:08:51He was sent out fighting for several weeks and when he came back, I was
0:08:51 > 0:08:54preparing myself psychologically and emotionally for a desensitisation,
0:08:54 > 0:09:02for him to be detached. What I found was when he came back he was in fact
0:09:02 > 0:09:06very clingy to me. In fact when he called me come he never wanted my
0:09:06 > 0:09:10voice to go off the call, he wanted my voice to be the last one he
0:09:10 > 0:09:15heard.Why didn't he know about the true nature of this organisation,
0:09:15 > 0:09:22the rape and torture, the genocide? Did he not believe that stuff?There
0:09:22 > 0:09:28was so much media out there, the coverage and images we saw, but you
0:09:28 > 0:09:30have to understand, this ideology, the way they recruit them, they
0:09:30 > 0:09:37teach them, what you are hearing in the media is fake news, it is a
0:09:37 > 0:09:41conspiracy, the Government is making this up against you.They must have
0:09:41 > 0:09:48seen the beheading videos on television.That is much later on.
0:09:48 > 0:09:57Was he an enemy incompetent?
0:09:57 > 0:10:03Was he an enemy incompetent? -- incombatant.I didn't understand
0:10:03 > 0:10:08what he had been sold, he had gone in this dream.An innocent abroad,
0:10:08 > 0:10:15you reckon? Just tell everyone, you were a British volunteer who fought
0:10:15 > 0:10:21ISIS.I find it so frustrating they were joining Islamic State as
0:10:21 > 0:10:26victims.
0:10:26 > 0:10:30victims. Their work Yazidi girls being sold into slavery, journalists
0:10:30 > 0:10:35having their heads cut off. Your son and the others we were talking
0:10:35 > 0:10:39about, they watched this on the news. We all did and I was moved to
0:10:39 > 0:10:44fight against them, your son was moved to fight for them. You cannot
0:10:44 > 0:10:49compare poor young girls who come from disadvantaged backgrounds and
0:10:49 > 0:10:54who are abused by abusers to those young girls that sort out extremist
0:10:54 > 0:10:57material, they watched the news as we all did, and agreed with what
0:10:57 > 0:11:01they were watching and allowed themselves to be groomed. I agree in
0:11:01 > 0:11:08some respects, the young girls did get groomed, they were seeking
0:11:08 > 0:11:15something, but at the end of the day it was them
0:11:17 > 0:11:25it was them that sought it out.When you are told a lie you tend to
0:11:25 > 0:11:28believe it, especially at an age when you are impressionable and
0:11:28 > 0:11:32being able to make a choice, what we need to understand here, these girls
0:11:32 > 0:11:38were not allowed to make choices in their home lives.Do you think once
0:11:38 > 0:11:42they saw the material...This is what their families have said.You
0:11:42 > 0:11:49have picked up mobile phones and seen the footage and it is
0:11:49 > 0:11:54unspeakable, isn't it?I was talking to a friend of mine recently, in the
0:11:54 > 0:12:01past we have always tried to dehumanise the enemy, but ISIS have
0:12:01 > 0:12:10dehumanised themselves. They want us to know they are a death cult.I
0:12:10 > 0:12:15don't disagree with that at all. With your son of seeing that,
0:12:15 > 0:12:22Nicola?Absolutely, when he came back from fighting he was very
0:12:22 > 0:12:27clingy towards me and it was in that week, we had contact for about a
0:12:27 > 0:12:31week, and in that period he was on the phone every single day. There
0:12:31 > 0:12:37was something softer... He was beginning to see grey again. Very
0:12:37 > 0:12:42much the mentality is they see this black and white, yes and no, right
0:12:42 > 0:12:47and wrong.So critical thinking was creeping back in. What should happen
0:12:47 > 0:12:52to these people?My concern is relieve them to the authorities in
0:12:52 > 0:12:58Syria, it is so fractured and out there, I wouldn't trust the Syrian
0:12:58 > 0:13:04people to bring them to justice. Nobody in this room once these ISIS
0:13:04 > 0:13:10fighters to be brought to justice more than I. I lost my only son so
0:13:10 > 0:13:13nobody in this room can declare they want them to be brought as much as I
0:13:13 > 0:13:18do. APPLAUSE
0:13:18 > 0:13:22do. APPLAUSE.
0:13:22 > 0:13:28Tom, what should happen to them? These are people who have betrayed
0:13:28 > 0:13:34their country...Are they traitors? Absolutely, they have gone to join
0:13:34 > 0:13:37the force that has committed unspeakable atrocities and many when
0:13:37 > 0:13:42they arrive burn their passport and denounce this country. They are not
0:13:42 > 0:13:45British any more in any meaningful sense and have no right to come back
0:13:45 > 0:13:50to this country. You cannot denounce this country then claimed the right
0:13:50 > 0:13:53and the privilege to come back and live here. So often this
0:13:53 > 0:13:59conversation ends up being about the right of the returnees, the right of
0:13:59 > 0:14:03terrorists essentially, and we are at the risk of having our commitment
0:14:03 > 0:14:08to rights being used against us, by people who believe in an ideology
0:14:08 > 0:14:12that doesn't believe in human rights at all, that would like to kill as
0:14:12 > 0:14:16many people in this country as they can. I think this conversation has
0:14:16 > 0:14:20to begin as a starting point by thinking about the rights of the
0:14:20 > 0:14:23vast majority of people in this country, the rights of people not to
0:14:23 > 0:14:32be blown up at a music concert.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35Those situations take place by people who have been groomed within
0:14:35 > 0:14:40the country and remain within our borders...So we don't need any more
0:14:40 > 0:14:44of them?Doesn't it show the difficulty the Government has, we
0:14:44 > 0:14:48need to distinguish between those who were naive, those who...That is
0:14:48 > 0:14:53one of the things you try to do? Sorry, Jonathan, I will come back to
0:14:53 > 0:14:57you, but when you say Sifton distinguished, that is right on what
0:14:57 > 0:15:05Lynn does, if you will forgive me. How do you stop people from coming
0:15:05 > 0:15:07back who have a supremacist, Islamist ideology that we are
0:15:07 > 0:15:11inferior human beings? And also they believe that we should be killed.
0:15:11 > 0:15:15How do you change that? Adult people do change, but before that I would
0:15:15 > 0:15:20like to go back to the idea of making distinctions within the
0:15:20 > 0:15:25people who come back.Our values are the search for evidence about what
0:15:25 > 0:15:31has happened. By law in this country there is no offence by law as being
0:15:31 > 0:15:35a terrorist, we do not convict on thought crime. About these people
0:15:35 > 0:15:40have made their choice. We do not convict on what people believe or
0:15:40 > 0:15:44ideology in this country. For things to happen to people there has to be
0:15:44 > 0:15:48evidence and a whole raft of measures which will be put in place.
0:15:48 > 0:15:54They may go to court or there might be other measures. We had to look at
0:15:54 > 0:15:57people differently and look at the possibilities of reintegration, that
0:15:57 > 0:16:04will be the best thing to do.And it is possible.We have had a research
0:16:04 > 0:16:08programme in ConnectFutures looking at interviewing former extremists
0:16:08 > 0:16:12and their families about why they went out, why they came back. We
0:16:12 > 0:16:16have made a series of films which we use with young people, training in
0:16:16 > 0:16:25schools. We also have some former extremists talking live to young
0:16:25 > 0:16:29people. Young people are engaged with this and it is the most
0:16:29 > 0:16:34powerful messages to young people about understanding the grey areas.
0:16:34 > 0:16:39But it takes ten years...What happens when people start to change,
0:16:39 > 0:16:44when they realise...This is a cult, it takes ten years to deprogrammed
0:16:44 > 0:16:53somebody from a cold.Oh, no.We had an example of somebody from
0:16:53 > 0:16:57Birmingham who fought in Afghanistan...To be completely
0:16:57 > 0:17:02clear, it takes ten years?It can be less. It can happen during the
0:17:02 > 0:17:08actual time. Looking at examples like someone who fought in Bosnia
0:17:08 > 0:17:13and Afghanistan in the 90s, during the time he was there he began the
0:17:13 > 0:17:17critical thinking process, seeing areas of grave. Now he has come
0:17:17 > 0:17:26back. When he came back he began the actual de-radicalisation process.
0:17:26 > 0:17:32Became normal again. It is my understanding with some of these
0:17:32 > 0:17:37interviews that have taken place that some of these people express
0:17:37 > 0:17:42great sadness at unnecessary death, but it was sadness at the
0:17:42 > 0:17:48unnecessary death, as they saw it, of fellow Sidnei Muslims, not at
0:17:48 > 0:17:55Yazidis, not Coptic Christians, not Western aid workers. -- of fellow
0:17:55 > 0:18:00Sunni Muslims. They were disillusioned with not the ideology
0:18:00 > 0:18:06but the way the state was being run. On another level you see
0:18:06 > 0:18:09Scientologists leaving Scientology but still believing in it. That is
0:18:09 > 0:18:14the problem you have?I don't deny that and I am not saying but former
0:18:14 > 0:18:19extremists will have renounced the ideology, necessarily. With the man
0:18:19 > 0:18:22that you mentioned, you might still believe in the caliphate that you
0:18:22 > 0:18:27renounce violence as a means to get their ads you are using the
0:18:27 > 0:18:34experience...Some people have gone through the de-radicalisation
0:18:34 > 0:18:37process and have still committed terror attacks. People lost their
0:18:37 > 0:18:41lives in Australia because of somebody who went through a
0:18:41 > 0:18:45de-radicalisation process and kills people. You have no right to play
0:18:45 > 0:18:52Russian roulette with public safety. We will put them on trial, after
0:18:52 > 0:18:56there is not the evidence to get the proper conviction. You have seen the
0:18:56 > 0:19:00idea that you can put them under surveillance, security services are
0:19:00 > 0:19:04not infallible and in 2017 we had Manchester, London Bridge and
0:19:04 > 0:19:08Westminster Bridge carried out by individuals known to the
0:19:08 > 0:19:11authorities, under surveillance. People have lost their lives. You
0:19:11 > 0:19:15have to but the British public first.The London Bridge was not
0:19:15 > 0:19:21committed by somebody who had been out.Neither was Manchester.They
0:19:21 > 0:19:25were people known to the authorities. In the case of London
0:19:25 > 0:19:34Bridge he was a live investigated case. What about the 7/7 bombings
0:19:34 > 0:19:39carried out by people trained in Pakistan? What about the Bataclan
0:19:39 > 0:19:44bombings?But clearly they would be a useful resource when it comes to
0:19:44 > 0:19:49intelligence?How do you know who is really a useful resource and he was
0:19:49 > 0:19:54not?By talking to them, and you can only do that if they are here.If
0:19:54 > 0:19:58you shut down the opportunity immediately you will never get them.
0:19:58 > 0:20:03What would you like to happen to them?Of course they ought to be
0:20:03 > 0:20:07brought to justice and put on trial, but they should not come back here,
0:20:07 > 0:20:10that should be the prerequisite. If you trade your country you should
0:20:10 > 0:20:15never come back. That must be sent to people in the country, that
0:20:15 > 0:20:19message, when the next Islamic State whatever comes along. If you go out
0:20:19 > 0:20:23there, we will not welcome you back. Bring them to justice in another
0:20:23 > 0:20:35country. One of the Beatles was
0:20:36 > 0:20:38convicted in Turkey and is currently serving a prison sentence that.
0:20:38 > 0:20:40Other European fighters have been put on trial in Iraq. We can debate
0:20:40 > 0:20:43that and what should happen, but the starting point is the British public
0:20:43 > 0:20:46is put first and we do not need to live among them.Can we not call
0:20:46 > 0:20:50them the Beatles?! The Beatles were four Greg Clark from Liverpool. Call
0:20:50 > 0:20:59them the four halfwits or the four delusional Axel -- delusionals.I am
0:20:59 > 0:21:03with you, it is like that ghastly phrase Jihadi John. Let's ask the
0:21:03 > 0:21:08audience. You mention is on trial in Syria, that will not take a long
0:21:08 > 0:21:16time. Is it the Hague, which will take a long time? Isn't this
0:21:16 > 0:21:19country, which will be very different, the bar of evidence, you
0:21:19 > 0:21:25cannot be convicted for ideology. Or should we just give them a ticket to
0:21:25 > 0:21:30Guantanamo Bay? Quick thoughts.As an LGBT rights activist I am
0:21:30 > 0:21:34sickened by people trying to defence, however young or naively,
0:21:34 > 0:21:39people who go to be part of an organisation that checks gay men off
0:21:39 > 0:21:41the top of buildings. APPLAUSE
0:21:41 > 0:21:44Having said that I think we should live up to a British liberal values,
0:21:44 > 0:21:48they should be brought here, sentenced and sent to prison.
0:21:48 > 0:21:52APPLAUSE We should withhold the very thing we
0:21:52 > 0:21:59are fighting for, our liberal values? Over there, good morning.I
0:21:59 > 0:22:05agree with that gentleman over there.What should happen to them?
0:22:05 > 0:22:09Going through my head is the fact that this country some years ago
0:22:09 > 0:22:12took a decision to abolish capital punishment. One of the things that
0:22:12 > 0:22:17worries about me -- worries me about the debate going on here is that we
0:22:17 > 0:22:21could be condemning British citizens to capital punishment where they are
0:22:21 > 0:22:24held. It is a sign of our liberal values that we should insist they
0:22:24 > 0:22:28come back here and face trial.We should not condemn them in the way
0:22:28 > 0:22:33they condemn their victims? Precisely so. We have gone to a good
0:22:33 > 0:22:36deal of trouble to avoid British citizens being subject to capital
0:22:36 > 0:22:41punishment in countries they are written. There was a young man, they
0:22:41 > 0:22:44try to extradite him to the States, he could have faced the death
0:22:44 > 0:22:50penalty. We have set our face against capital punishment. I do not
0:22:50 > 0:22:54think we should engage in a situation where we condemn our
0:22:54 > 0:22:59citizens and what we think of them to death in another country. I agree
0:22:59 > 0:23:03that they should be brought back here and subject to our values and
0:23:03 > 0:23:05standards and our trials, that is what makes as the country we are.
0:23:05 > 0:23:12APPLAUSE We have not had you, Rabia Bhatti.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15When you hear about a drone strike and one of these people getting
0:23:15 > 0:23:21killed, how do you feel?I feel upset. Loss of life, anywhere,
0:23:21 > 0:23:25anyhow, is deeply upsetting. But these people made a choice to lead
0:23:25 > 0:23:30this country, to denounce Britain, to go and fight with Islamic State
0:23:30 > 0:23:34and kill other people. If we allow them back into this country, I don't
0:23:34 > 0:23:46want to wake up on a Sunday morning, go shopping with my family
0:23:46 > 0:23:48go shopping with my family and be the victim of a terror attack which
0:23:48 > 0:23:50would devastate hundreds of thousands of civilians for no fault
0:23:50 > 0:23:53of their own other than the fact that we allowed people we knew were
0:23:53 > 0:23:56a threat to our society back in to integrate and learn from them.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59Nicola?To be honest, I think the UK has the best legal system, the best
0:23:59 > 0:24:04knowledge and understanding of radicalisation and rehabilitation
0:24:04 > 0:24:09compared to a lot of countries. I do a lot of work in Europe and America
0:24:09 > 0:24:15and I can pride myself on the UK. Why are we not bringing them back to
0:24:15 > 0:24:20monitor them?We do not have the resources.But neither do these
0:24:20 > 0:24:24countries. My concern is if you leave them there, eventually they
0:24:24 > 0:24:29will come out. You will not be able to monitor them then. Eventually...
0:24:29 > 0:24:35They have families here, they will want to come back.
0:24:35 > 0:24:38Nicola, I completely understand what you are saying, but allowing people
0:24:38 > 0:24:43to come back into this country that we know has been exposed to terrible
0:24:43 > 0:24:47ideology over there, have committed crimes that you can't even speak of,
0:24:47 > 0:24:52to come back and try to rehabilitate these people into society where they
0:24:52 > 0:24:55could be a threat to millions of others is really unfair and very
0:24:55 > 0:25:02selfish of us.People can easily be exposed to that very same ideology
0:25:02 > 0:25:07on the dark web here as well. It makes no difference whatsoever.Why
0:25:07 > 0:25:13should we bring them back?400 are already back, we need to start
0:25:13 > 0:25:18working and understand what made them... We need that understanding,
0:25:18 > 0:25:22as counter extremism experts, as the security agencies, as a government
0:25:22 > 0:25:29we need to be able...
0:25:29 > 0:25:31we need to be able...Are they subject to these Investigatory
0:25:31 > 0:25:36Powers Bill? Are they monitored every art of the day?We do not know
0:25:36 > 0:25:40where they are, we know they are back.We do not know where they are?
0:25:40 > 0:25:45The security services are working very hard to ensure they are found
0:25:45 > 0:25:49and we are able to monitor them and work with them.
0:25:49 > 0:25:55What I would like to say is the de-radicalisation process can be
0:25:55 > 0:26:02effective...How do you know they are not lying to you?It is all
0:26:02 > 0:26:05relative.They had deleted the Internet history, they might be
0:26:05 > 0:26:09pulling the wool over your eyes.We have great security systems in
0:26:09 > 0:26:14place, great officers working who are trained to extract the truth and
0:26:14 > 0:26:21hundreds of civilians. You keep going back...
0:26:21 > 0:26:28ALL TALK AT ONCE We do not have the level of evidence required from our
0:26:28 > 0:26:32courts in this country. We need to take it on a case-by-case
0:26:32 > 0:26:37basis. No one individual will have the same level of radicalisation,
0:26:37 > 0:26:41the same level of engagement with Isis as others. These young girls,
0:26:41 > 0:26:44they have mostly been kept in large houses, have been restricted with
0:26:44 > 0:26:51their movements. Not all the women have been trained.The women are as
0:26:51 > 0:26:58bad as the men. There is a police force run by women which beats
0:26:58 > 0:27:02women...Let him explain, he has been out there and force them, he
0:27:02 > 0:27:16has fought IS. I want to hear from Macer.They have gone out there,
0:27:16 > 0:27:20been trained, been exposed even more ideology. Why risk inviting hundreds
0:27:20 > 0:27:25of these people back to the UK when they potentially could be so much
0:27:25 > 0:27:29worse than the people already here? There are many things we need to do.
0:27:29 > 0:27:33We need to keep the ones that other out and come after the people who
0:27:33 > 0:27:38are back already.Some of them have been extremely vulnerable.In what
0:27:38 > 0:27:44way?We look at the young girls... Why do you keep mentioning the young
0:27:44 > 0:27:48girls, what about the boys?Because we started this debate talking about
0:27:48 > 0:27:55those young girls. There are many more like them.I will be with you
0:27:55 > 0:28:01in a minute. Macer Gifford, is it a principle of yours that you share
0:28:01 > 0:28:06the crimes of the group you join? Yes.You fought with the white Fiji,
0:28:06 > 0:28:13you could well be a criminal because amnesty International has accused
0:28:13 > 0:28:18the
0:28:18 > 0:28:22the YPG of war crimes. Daesh you fought with the YPG.I encourage
0:28:22 > 0:28:26Amnesty International to take that back, which they did not. A year
0:28:26 > 0:28:31later the UN did their own reporting clear the YPG for the accusations.
0:28:31 > 0:28:35The report was written on oral evidence from people who had left
0:28:35 > 0:28:42the war zone, it was politically driven, basically. It was the fog of
0:28:42 > 0:28:49war.That is why it is so difficult to get a conviction in these places
0:28:49 > 0:28:56in a standard courtroom, isn't it? Rabbi?There are two principles, the
0:28:56 > 0:29:01principle of law. We may have dodgy evidence but we have the law. These
0:29:01 > 0:29:04people, sadly, are British citizens and therefore they have a right to
0:29:04 > 0:29:09citizenship and we cannot take it away. We can take it away if they
0:29:09 > 0:29:13are dual nationals, but not British citizens. We had to take them back
0:29:13 > 0:29:16because we abide by the rule of law. Then there is the question of what
0:29:16 > 0:29:20we do with them, we have to sift between those who were naive and
0:29:20 > 0:29:24need to be educated, those who are brainwashed and need to be
0:29:24 > 0:29:28deprogrammed and those who are dill -- guilty and need to be imprisoned
0:29:28 > 0:29:34or whatever. Justice is the only thing we can on. That is why we have
0:29:34 > 0:29:37to apply the same standards to people fighting on the other side.
0:29:37 > 0:29:44Aren't they all, in a sense, guilty? Everyone in that war zone is under
0:29:44 > 0:29:47suspicion. Just because you were involved in a just cause does not
0:29:47 > 0:29:51mean to say that some of your people may not have also been involved in
0:29:51 > 0:29:56murders. It is the only backbone we have, if we do not adhere then we
0:29:56 > 0:30:03collapse completely.
0:30:04 > 0:30:09My group is the one that captured the so-called Beatles. They have
0:30:09 > 0:30:12banned the death penalty just to appease the concerns of the
0:30:12 > 0:30:16gentleman at the back. They work closely with the Americans and the
0:30:16 > 0:30:22Brits.There are so many groups there.There really are, that is why
0:30:22 > 0:30:27we are trying to simplify it. ISIS are out of the equation now and
0:30:27 > 0:30:35trying to come up with a peaceful solution -- we are trying to come up
0:30:35 > 0:30:44with a peaceful solution. Keeping prisons would keep jihadis in the UN
0:30:44 > 0:30:49funded prison, there's many options we have got in that regard.Here is
0:30:49 > 0:30:55an ideology. If some of these people have rightly or wrongly felt so
0:30:55 > 0:30:59passionate and so strongly about going abroad and fighting for a
0:30:59 > 0:31:15cause, whether it is anti-Isis or against ISIS particularly as Macer
0:31:15 > 0:31:19did, keep them abroad because that energy could be better used abroad,
0:31:19 > 0:31:25not here. I think it's about time somebody here spoke up for our
0:31:25 > 0:31:28security services and particularly our police force which is depleted
0:31:28 > 0:31:34and we are struggling as it is, so keep them abroad and let them do
0:31:34 > 0:31:38some service there. They can continue the work they wanted to do
0:31:38 > 0:31:43either for that country or those people and help them to survive now.
0:31:43 > 0:31:48Hopefully the war will be over and then they can build the country up
0:31:48 > 0:31:54again. Don't bring them back, please, we don't want any more.
0:31:54 > 0:31:59Thank you all very much indeed.
0:31:59 > 0:32:02We are going to talk about education now.
0:32:02 > 0:32:04If you have something to say about that debate,
0:32:04 > 0:32:06log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, then follow the link
0:32:06 > 0:32:08to where you can join in the discussion online.
0:32:08 > 0:32:10Or contribute on Twitter.
0:32:10 > 0:32:12Next, here at Leicester Grammar School, we'll be debating
0:32:12 > 0:32:17whether schools should select exclusively by faith.
0:32:17 > 0:32:19But before that, make a note of this email address -
0:32:19 > 0:32:22audiencetbq@mentorn.tv - if you'd like to apply
0:32:22 > 0:32:26to be in the audience at a future programme.
0:32:26 > 0:32:28We're in Bath next Sunday, Edinburgh on March 4th and Newport,
0:32:28 > 0:32:34South Wales the week after that.
0:32:34 > 0:32:42Leicester, famous for being the most multicultural and multi-faith city
0:32:42 > 0:32:48in the United Kingdom.
0:32:48 > 0:32:50But soon Leicester, and 11 other local authorities,
0:32:50 > 0:32:52will face a shortfall of secondary school places.
0:32:52 > 0:32:54Schools here are already operating at 104% capacity,
0:32:54 > 0:32:57and that's forecast to rise to 135% by 2022.
0:32:57 > 0:33:00So the rules for selecting pupils by each school are coming
0:33:00 > 0:33:01under increased scrutiny.
0:33:01 > 0:33:03Many faith schools say they'll have to turn down children
0:33:03 > 0:33:09from their own religion unless the rules are changed.
0:33:09 > 0:33:12Currently only 50% of pupils can be selected according to their faith
0:33:12 > 0:33:13in newer schools opened since 2010.
0:33:13 > 0:33:21Should schools select exclusively by faith?
0:33:22 > 0:33:29This is something you have been campaigning on for as long as I can
0:33:29 > 0:33:35remember and probably as long as you can remember as
0:33:35 > 0:33:44can remember as well, Rabbi.Yes and this is something I have been
0:33:44 > 0:33:49campaigning on. For two reasons, first principle because it is
0:33:49 > 0:33:58discrimination. We wouldn't dream of having swimming pools only for
0:33:59 > 0:34:06Hindus. Secondly, practical level, faith schools divide children. It
0:34:06 > 0:34:14may not be the intention but that is the effect. It is Jews over there,
0:34:14 > 0:34:19Catholics and Sikh, whatever. You are segregating the children which
0:34:19 > 0:34:29means the next generation have the, suspicion and prejudice. Precisely
0:34:29 > 0:34:34because we are multi-faith society, we want to work hard to make it not
0:34:34 > 0:34:38the multi-fractious society. It is a disservice not only to the children,
0:34:38 > 0:34:42because we are talking about education, and here is another
0:34:42 > 0:34:46irony, education is where we want children to broaden their horizons
0:34:46 > 0:34:53and yet by putting them into individual schools we are denuding
0:34:53 > 0:34:57them of wider society. What lesson are we giving them if we divide them
0:34:57 > 0:35:01at the gate? By the way this is also a religious argument because those
0:35:01 > 0:35:06of faith and no faith at all which share the added love thy neighbour
0:35:06 > 0:35:10as you know yourself but you cannot love thy neighbour if you don't know
0:35:10 > 0:35:17your neighbour. It is very important. Just to give you a
0:35:17 > 0:35:21practical example, this isn't just theory, I deliberately didn't send
0:35:21 > 0:35:25my children to the local Jewish Day school, I sent them to a community
0:35:25 > 0:35:29school because I wanted my Jewish children to sit next to a Christian
0:35:29 > 0:35:34and walk home with a Muslim, do brag with a catholic because that way
0:35:34 > 0:35:37they get to know my children, my children get to know them and we end
0:35:37 > 0:35:43up with a better rounded society. By all means let faith flourish at
0:35:43 > 0:35:50home, church, the
0:36:00 > 0:36:01mosque, after-school, weekends, summer camps, but not let faith
0:36:01 > 0:36:04divide the children Monday to Friday, 9-3.I think you have said
0:36:04 > 0:36:06everything! I honestly don't think you have got anything else to say,
0:36:06 > 0:36:09it was all in there! I don't understand that because I right in
0:36:09 > 0:36:14saying you don't want children in backgrounds of other faiths at your
0:36:14 > 0:36:23school, Sujata?That is not the totality of what I am saying. I
0:36:23 > 0:36:30would want the model we have in the Hindu faith because per se I do
0:36:30 > 0:36:34agree with the Rabbi, in an ideal world we shouldn't have faith
0:36:34 > 0:36:40schools. If state funded schools provided rounded quality of
0:36:40 > 0:36:47religious education, we would have no need for faith schools at all.So
0:36:47 > 0:36:53you want a 100% Hindu school?A lot of the religious education
0:36:53 > 0:36:57information is not correct, the books need to be amended and
0:36:57 > 0:37:01corrected, therefore we do need some schools to provide the correct
0:37:01 > 0:37:07religious education.So you don't want children from other faiths at
0:37:07 > 0:37:11your school?No no no, we have to have... We must reflect what's
0:37:11 > 0:37:17happening in real life in our schools. However, there are some
0:37:17 > 0:37:23schools, particularly in Leicester, majority on faith only.So do you
0:37:23 > 0:37:30want a 100% Hindu faith school?No, we don't have that, we do have a
0:37:30 > 0:37:36model...Do you want to break the 50% barrier?We want children of all
0:37:36 > 0:37:43faiths to go to school together. It works very well. There is no need to
0:37:43 > 0:37:47have a quota. If it is based on the catchment area, meritocracy, then
0:37:47 > 0:37:53there is no need for a catchment area. Why throw the baby out with
0:37:53 > 0:37:57the bath water? If you are going to have a school built on the ethos of
0:37:57 > 0:38:01my faith which is Hinduism, a pluralistic religion for want of a
0:38:01 > 0:38:08better word, it is not quite a religion but it is a religion in the
0:38:08 > 0:38:11English educational system. We don't want to go down the other route
0:38:11 > 0:38:16where there is too much orthodoxy, too much regimental air Station, and
0:38:16 > 0:38:23children who are not mixing
0:38:24 > 0:38:31children who are not mixing with other faiths. -- regimentalisation.
0:38:31 > 0:38:42Lynne, you were shifting in your seat.I worry about the hip --
0:38:42 > 0:38:46hypocrisy of this because you are saying we would prefer to have
0:38:46 > 0:38:49children of this faith because they are better than other children. As
0:38:49 > 0:38:54soon as you select by faith, you are saying to others in the community
0:38:54 > 0:38:59that our faith is better than yours. Let me come back in second because
0:38:59 > 0:39:05you had quite a lot at the beginning. Jonathan, you can come
0:39:05 > 0:39:10back and correct that in a few moments, I want to spread the love
0:39:10 > 0:39:15in this multi-faith exercise in which we are partaking. David,
0:39:15 > 0:39:22respond to that point.
0:39:22 > 0:39:24respond to that point.About faith? I think selecting of the school
0:39:24 > 0:39:28begins with the family, selecting to send their children to a school so
0:39:28 > 0:39:33it is a two way process. I would acknowledge and agree with a lot of
0:39:33 > 0:39:39the points that have been made. We don't want to have schools that are
0:39:39 > 0:39:43exclusive on views and on formation of children, but those are the kind
0:39:43 > 0:39:49of views, the kind of values that for instance in my community a
0:39:49 > 0:39:55catholic school would have. We have about 2500 schools across England
0:39:55 > 0:40:00and Wales, 22 Catholic schools in Leicestershire. Nationally 68% of
0:40:00 > 0:40:07the students who come to our schools are catholic.So you want to get rid
0:40:07 > 0:40:15of the 50% barrier? What do you want to take it too?I wanted to be open
0:40:15 > 0:40:21that you can select those schools. You would be happy with 100%?
0:40:21 > 0:40:25Absolutely. So that families can educate their children according to
0:40:25 > 0:40:29the faith community and the ethos of that community, and they have the
0:40:29 > 0:40:38right to do that.Are they catholic children?Yes, the children who come
0:40:38 > 0:40:43to my school are catholic.How can you be catholic if you are not old
0:40:43 > 0:40:51enough to make a choice. It's like saying a Scientologist child, a
0:40:51 > 0:40:58creationist child.They are formed as part of the community, then they
0:40:58 > 0:41:03make their decisions and is formed by that to grow and be enriched by
0:41:03 > 0:41:09the society.Or impoverished as the case may be.Our schools are
0:41:09 > 0:41:14supervised by Ofsted, supervised in education systems which look at
0:41:14 > 0:41:19them.
0:41:19 > 0:41:22them.Jonathan.That is disgraceful, you are saying you want 100%
0:41:22 > 0:41:29Catholic schools. Too many people just heard you. In other words you
0:41:29 > 0:41:35want an educational ghetto.
0:41:35 > 0:41:38want an educational ghetto. Jesus said, suffer the little children. He
0:41:38 > 0:41:45didn't say segregate the little children.I grew up in Northern
0:41:45 > 0:41:48Ireland, where there was great segregation. I went to a catholic
0:41:48 > 0:41:54grammar school in Northern Ireland and ironically what you might think,
0:41:54 > 0:41:58the school was the absolute antithesis to what was happening
0:41:58 > 0:42:04outside. It was the place where we were given a broader spectrum of
0:42:04 > 0:42:09views, where people of different views to us were brought in in the
0:42:09 > 0:42:151990s when the troubles were coming to an end. The non-Catholic schools
0:42:15 > 0:42:19in Northern Ireland were bastions of diversity.Would you have a debating
0:42:19 > 0:42:25society? We seek to have balanced views on this programme, more often
0:42:25 > 0:42:31than not I hope we succeed but... Quiet at the back! If you are having
0:42:31 > 0:42:35a debate for example on abortion, would you be able to have a properly
0:42:35 > 0:42:43balanced debate in the school with 100% Catholic children?Absolutely.
0:42:43 > 0:42:49Not everyone who professes themselves to be catholic would
0:42:49 > 0:42:53beyond a particular line on an issue like abortion.So you would be able
0:42:53 > 0:42:58to say it is a woman's right to choose?In order to open the minds
0:42:58 > 0:43:02of our children, we would want to give them access to all areas of any
0:43:02 > 0:43:06particular debate so they can form their opinions on so the views they
0:43:06 > 0:43:16hold are part of their conscience. And sexual education, information
0:43:16 > 0:43:21about homosexuality?Yes, we teach that already through our sex
0:43:21 > 0:43:26education programme.If the child came to you...Of course we have
0:43:26 > 0:43:31children in our schools who say they are gay and they are supported on
0:43:31 > 0:43:35cherished and enriched.In that case, how do you explain what's
0:43:35 > 0:43:38happening in Northern Ireland today, the school population is going down
0:43:38 > 0:43:44and yet there is a vast increase in children going to integrated
0:43:44 > 0:43:50schools, because the parents realise that they help perpetuate the
0:43:50 > 0:43:57prejudice and now the parents are realising the only way forward is to
0:43:57 > 0:44:05go to integrated schools.What is the evidence...Statistics.What is
0:44:05 > 0:44:09the evidence faith schools in Northern Ireland problem to
0:44:09 > 0:44:16conflict? In my experience they help to end the conflict. It's true, I
0:44:16 > 0:44:22have that experience, being part of our community.Integrated schools,
0:44:22 > 0:44:29they know...It is an unorthodox view.It might be but it happens to
0:44:29 > 0:44:33be the view I hold. It was the community standing up together and
0:44:33 > 0:44:40saying we no longer want to have this conflict.
0:44:40 > 0:44:46Good morning, Malcolm Trobe! How are you doing? This is giving parents a
0:44:46 > 0:44:50choice to instil moral values and their children, is it not?
0:44:50 > 0:44:54I think what we are saying is what we want from our education service?
0:44:54 > 0:44:59The key thing we want is for every child to go to a good local schools.
0:44:59 > 0:45:03That local school is representative of the community in which they live.
0:45:03 > 0:45:09We live in a multicultural world. We want young people to be able to
0:45:09 > 0:45:13experience that. The schools should be representative of that. We want
0:45:13 > 0:45:17all children to have a good school, we want that school to represent the
0:45:17 > 0:45:21local community. We do not want youngsters travelling miles. We do
0:45:21 > 0:45:24not want a youngster living literally 100 yards away from a
0:45:24 > 0:45:29school but cannot go to their local school, they are having to travel.
0:45:29 > 0:45:34We want all schools to be a good local school. That is what we are
0:45:34 > 0:45:38really after.Malcolm is quite right, you have to differentiate
0:45:38 > 0:45:44between an independent faith school and a state faith school.Of course.
0:45:44 > 0:45:49Lots of our faith schools, because they are predominantly in that
0:45:49 > 0:45:55majority face area, that location, if 99% of those children in that
0:45:55 > 0:45:59school are of one faith, what happens to the parents unbend the
0:45:59 > 0:46:05children don't want to go to that school, because the culture will be
0:46:05 > 0:46:14one culture.What happens, Henna I went from being in a very diverse,
0:46:14 > 0:46:17mixed school which was secular, it did not have any religious
0:46:17 > 0:46:20affiliations here in Leicester, for my primary education, although there
0:46:20 > 0:46:27was a short period when I had a Catholic Junior school education,
0:46:27 > 0:46:33into an all girls Muslim school in Leicester. Suddenly from having a
0:46:33 > 0:46:37very broad reach of friends, I went to only seeing Muslim girls in this
0:46:37 > 0:46:43school. Who were living in the same streets, attending the same address
0:46:43 > 0:46:54as me in the evenings -- attending the same madrasah as me.Were there
0:46:54 > 0:46:59different attitudes about society? All of a sudden from having this
0:46:59 > 0:47:03rich culture of celebrating nativities, celebrating Hanika,
0:47:03 > 0:47:11celebrating Diwali, it all became about Islam.What about the boys and
0:47:11 > 0:47:15girls?We don't talk to boys because we are in a girls school, if we took
0:47:15 > 0:47:20two boys we will be expelled and taken to task. This is the 80s.I
0:47:20 > 0:47:25think it still goes on.From being a tomboy and the majority of my
0:47:25 > 0:47:31friends were male and I only had a couple of female friends, I now had
0:47:31 > 0:47:34to tolerate being in an all-female environment.Audience, I will be
0:47:34 > 0:47:41with you in a second. I am all for...Was that your
0:47:41 > 0:47:47experience?I do not think there has to be 100% faith schools.Was that
0:47:47 > 0:47:50your experience?I have been a school governor and mixed in with a
0:47:50 > 0:47:54lot of governors who are governors for faith schools and I see the
0:47:54 > 0:47:59difference. Our culture, our religion is better, the way they try
0:47:59 > 0:48:03to instil their Muslim girls all Muslim boys, don't talk to each
0:48:03 > 0:48:09other. You are not allowed. It is not our religion. That cannot be
0:48:09 > 0:48:13healthy.That would be exactly the view we would want to teach our
0:48:13 > 0:48:24children against. As I say, 68%... Allow me to go to the audience.
0:48:24 > 0:48:31That's you. How are you?Very well, thank you. How are you?Fire away.
0:48:31 > 0:48:35The debate so far as one of the most eloquent testimonies for the reason
0:48:35 > 0:48:42we ought to abolish faith in schools. We need a completely
0:48:42 > 0:48:46secular education system. I separate the idea of education from
0:48:46 > 0:48:50schooling. The problem with faith schools is they school people in
0:48:50 > 0:48:53their particular brand of faith throughout an entire process,
0:48:53 > 0:48:57leading to many of the problems we discussed at the beginning of the
0:48:57 > 0:49:03programme. I think the multicultural, anti-racist,
0:49:03 > 0:49:07democratic, just way of organising education is to ban all face from
0:49:07 > 0:49:12schools. It is not out of this world to do so, it is against the law in
0:49:12 > 0:49:16France, in the United States...You want to learn about faith in
0:49:16 > 0:49:21schools?
0:49:21 > 0:49:25schools?Appreciate its history from an academic and social
0:49:25 > 0:49:29anthropological perspective.Don't make me say that word! Can I move it
0:49:29 > 0:49:37along?I think they'd schools, personally as a parent I made a
0:49:37 > 0:49:40parental choice, I wanted my children to go to what was described
0:49:40 > 0:49:46as a fake school, a Church of England school, about 20, 25, 30%
0:49:46 > 0:49:50from different communities. -- I wanted my children to good was
0:49:50 > 0:49:55described as a faith school. We need our children to go to schools of
0:49:55 > 0:49:58tolerance which might encourage students to consider other faiths or
0:49:58 > 0:50:05no faith at all.There is a phrase in England for Church of England
0:50:05 > 0:50:10schools, prey on your knees... On your knees to avoid the fees! That
0:50:10 > 0:50:15is what people say in London. All of a sudden, people have rapid
0:50:15 > 0:50:20convergence.We talked about mileage and people sending their kids to
0:50:20 > 0:50:24great distance, some sent their kids to great distance to private
0:50:24 > 0:50:31independent schools.Madrasah.In terms of faith schools, I think the
0:50:31 > 0:50:36problem is I have plenty of friends who goes of my best friends are
0:50:36 > 0:50:40Muslim, Hindu or whatever, but sometimes I think they can promote a
0:50:40 > 0:50:45lack of understanding in community. I studied REI GCSE and there was a
0:50:45 > 0:50:53very, very big balance across the subjects. -- studied RE at GCSE. It
0:50:53 > 0:50:59has been important for people of faith is to mix, for me some of my
0:50:59 > 0:51:02friends can't do certain things and for me I would not have understood
0:51:02 > 0:51:07that if I just went to a school based on Christianity. I think it is
0:51:07 > 0:51:13really important to mix kids from an early age.
0:51:13 > 0:51:17Blue shirt?Quite frankly the world that we live in is not one religion,
0:51:17 > 0:51:22it is not Islam, not Christianity, not Judaism. If you speak to people
0:51:22 > 0:51:28along those lines, whatever you want to say about percentages and trying
0:51:28 > 0:51:31to teach acceptance of other religions etc, when people get into
0:51:31 > 0:51:34the real world, the real world is not like the school you will have
0:51:34 > 0:51:38been in -- if you split people along those lines. And school has to teach
0:51:38 > 0:51:43you about the real world.An audience consistency, apart from
0:51:43 > 0:51:47your good self. I think education is so much more
0:51:47 > 0:51:51than just learning academic principles. You forget about
0:51:51 > 0:51:55lunchtimes, break times when friends are mixing and people are mixing.
0:51:55 > 0:52:02Diversity is one of the most important
0:52:02 > 0:52:04important things in today's society to avoid the issues we spoke about
0:52:04 > 0:52:07earlier. How on earth can being taught one principle prepare you for
0:52:07 > 0:52:16society and life outside of school? Lynn, we have Ofsted to take care of
0:52:16 > 0:52:21business and make sure things are on the straight and narrow and nobody
0:52:21 > 0:52:24is teaching creationism or pseudoscience and they are doing six
0:52:24 > 0:52:28and relationship education properly, aunt Ofsted the big safeguarding all
0:52:28 > 0:52:34of this?One of the safeguard, but the better safeguard is not to go
0:52:34 > 0:52:41there in the first place, I think. Most of the audience will agree that
0:52:41 > 0:52:46as soon as you segregate kids in different ghettos, going back to the
0:52:46 > 0:52:52earlier discussion about security and extremism, you are more likely
0:52:52 > 0:52:57not to be able to build resilience to extremist views if you have only
0:52:57 > 0:53:03had the view that your religion is better than others. I am sorry, you
0:53:03 > 0:53:07may have this open idea that we talk about homosexuality and abortion and
0:53:07 > 0:53:13are fine with all of its, but if you're fine with all of it you do
0:53:13 > 0:53:19not need separate schools for different religions. You are not
0:53:19 > 0:53:23fine with it because you want to have kids and you want to teach
0:53:23 > 0:53:27children the values that you espouse, which are different from
0:53:27 > 0:53:33the values elsewhere. It is only when you get over that by having a
0:53:33 > 0:53:37secular system, I am not talking about atheism, that is different, a
0:53:37 > 0:53:41secular system where you genuinely value...The word secular is so
0:53:41 > 0:53:46misused. It means not facing any particular religion or creed over
0:53:46 > 0:53:50another.Not privileging one religion.It is not a religious.
0:53:50 > 0:53:56What a secular school looks like is favouring secularism is a particular
0:53:56 > 0:54:04viewpoint over others.Run this by me again?Secularism is a position
0:54:04 > 0:54:10on faith.It is not.It is not privileging any faith over another.
0:54:10 > 0:54:15I went to what you might describe as a secular school but we had a good
0:54:15 > 0:54:22understanding of Christianity, Hinduism, Islam. You don't need to
0:54:22 > 0:54:25be... ALL TALK AT ONCE Are you a teacher?
0:54:25 > 0:54:30I am a governor.So he will know secularism is not privileging any
0:54:30 > 0:54:34faith over another faith, it is not anti-faith.It is a position on
0:54:34 > 0:54:41faith.You will completely devastate my daughter who is in the Green room
0:54:41 > 0:54:46and goes to a Catholic school. Secularism is the separation of
0:54:46 > 0:54:51church and state, you do not privilege religion in the law,
0:54:51 > 0:54:56decision-making, the process of the police...Does that allow for
0:54:56 > 0:55:02religions to be exercised freely? Absolutely. In a liberal, secular
0:55:02 > 0:55:03society. ALL TALK AT ONCE...
0:55:03 > 0:55:08We want to educate our children in the traditions of our community...
0:55:08 > 0:55:15This is the most unruly class I have ever taught! David.The things that
0:55:15 > 0:55:18you are describing, the values you are describing, like the British
0:55:18 > 0:55:23values agenda in school, all of those things are things that we
0:55:23 > 0:55:29value in our Catholic schools. Having children from other faiths?
0:55:29 > 0:55:33We have lots of them. Lots of children from other faiths. You can
0:55:33 > 0:55:37shout me down as much as you want but we have lots of children from
0:55:37 > 0:55:43other faiths. We treasure those children and educate them.
0:55:43 > 0:55:48Treasure?! How patronising!Wires that patronising?He said these
0:55:48 > 0:55:52children as if they are over. APPLAUSE
0:55:52 > 0:56:00We treasure all of our children. Equally. And give them an
0:56:00 > 0:56:03opportunity to engage with the traditions of our community. That is
0:56:03 > 0:56:09what we do.It is a good idea to keep 50%, arguably. Nicola, do you
0:56:09 > 0:56:14have a view?
0:56:15 > 0:56:17have a view?There is nothing wrong with parents... Parents want the
0:56:17 > 0:56:22best for their children, they want to protect them. It is very rare you
0:56:22 > 0:56:26do not have that. Sometimes that may be choosing a faith school. What
0:56:26 > 0:56:30let's is down is sometimes not the faith itself, because what we are
0:56:30 > 0:56:35signing ourselves up for is the morals and teachings, but what
0:56:35 > 0:56:39letters down as the leadership in those schools. They are not skilled
0:56:39 > 0:56:44enough. I get what you are saying that actually be straight schools
0:56:44 > 0:56:51want to open up and have this debate, but unfortunately what my
0:56:51 > 0:56:54experience says is the people in these positions have not got the
0:56:54 > 0:56:59skill set and letting our children down.Many of our schools are led by
0:56:59 > 0:57:02leadership teams, governors and senior leaders graded good or
0:57:02 > 0:57:07outstanding. There are policies are bringing that require improvement or
0:57:07 > 0:57:13unsatisfactory to that system. I am happy to accept that standards in
0:57:13 > 0:57:19schools need to be driven up, but those standards are there. It is
0:57:19 > 0:57:23simply not right to say the leadership is defective.What is
0:57:23 > 0:57:30your experience of good leadership, Nicola?Unfortunately sometimes when
0:57:30 > 0:57:34you have poor leadership it is very much driven by the academic. It is
0:57:34 > 0:57:39very much about results and those margins. What does not happen is
0:57:39 > 0:57:45quite often it is pushed aside, it is the whole child, the whole
0:57:45 > 0:57:49well-being. Everything about that person. It is more about the
0:57:49 > 0:57:53academic, whether they are achieving and whether their school will be
0:57:53 > 0:57:59outstanding.A vision-- a vision of Catholic education would be
0:57:59 > 0:58:03educating the whole person. The person is formed in Christ and to
0:58:03 > 0:58:07educate the whole person, which is why we constantly drive our schools
0:58:07 > 0:58:11to be good and outstanding. We have lots of wonderful children from a
0:58:11 > 0:58:14lot of different backgrounds. Our schools are the most diverse
0:58:14 > 0:58:22schools.15 second answer?If we want a tolerant, inclusive society
0:58:22 > 0:58:27then we had to have a tolerant, inclusive education system...Which
0:58:27 > 0:58:32allows people to be educated in their faith.Thank you. Thank you
0:58:32 > 0:58:34very much.
0:58:34 > 0:58:36As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.
0:58:36 > 0:58:38Next week we're in Bath, so do join us then.
0:58:38 > 0:58:43But for now, it's goodbye and have a great Sunday.
0:58:43 > 0:58:45Thank you for watching.