0:00:01 > 0:00:04Today on The Big Questions...
0:00:04 > 0:00:06The arms industry - a matter of pride or a matter
0:00:06 > 0:00:10of shame for Britain?
0:00:10 > 0:00:17And obesity - whose fault is it if you're too fat?
0:00:22 > 0:00:26APPLAUSE
0:00:26 > 0:00:27Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell.
0:00:27 > 0:00:29Welcome to The Big Questions.
0:00:29 > 0:00:31Today we're live from Lliswerry High School
0:00:31 > 0:00:32in Newport, South Wales.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
0:00:35 > 0:00:41APPLAUSE
0:00:41 > 0:00:43Britain is very good at making weapons, armoured
0:00:43 > 0:00:47vehicles, fighter planes, bombs and ammunition.
0:00:47 > 0:00:50So good that we're the second biggest arms dealer in the world,
0:00:50 > 0:00:56outgunned only by the USA.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58This week, there's been a very important customer in town -
0:00:58 > 0:01:00Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03Lunch with the Queen, dinner with the Prince
0:01:03 > 0:01:05of Wales and Prince William, and a meeting with the Prime
0:01:05 > 0:01:09Minister at Chequers have all been aimed at getting him to sign a deal
0:01:09 > 0:01:15to buy 48 Typhoon jet fighters, amongst other things.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17The deal is good news for the 5,000 BAE Systems employees
0:01:17 > 0:01:19in Lancashire that assemble them.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21But protesters against the Saudi Prince were more concerned
0:01:21 > 0:01:23at the Saudi-led bombardment and blockade of Yemen and its
0:01:23 > 0:01:25ensuing humanitarian disaster.
0:01:25 > 0:01:33Should Britain be proud of its arms trade?
0:01:35 > 0:01:40Brad, is the arms trade immoral?I think arms in themselves are immoral
0:01:40 > 0:01:46and the question we talk about, pride in what? One of the things the
0:01:46 > 0:01:51arms trade will always do this if you start to critique it, they will
0:01:51 > 0:01:53immediately say you are bringing into question the pride of the
0:01:53 > 0:01:59worker, nobody I know who critiques the arms trade wants to bring into
0:01:59 > 0:02:05question the integrity of the workers. They can only produce arms,
0:02:05 > 0:02:10I do not think that. What we have to bring into question is that arms and
0:02:10 > 0:02:14the consequences. Whenever we think about guns in America, start with
0:02:14 > 0:02:18the shootings at schools, the same with the arms trade. These weapons
0:02:18 > 0:02:22are designed to kill.We need an army and the Army needs to be
0:02:22 > 0:02:27killed.Do we need an army? We start this understanding of politics which
0:02:27 > 0:02:35big guns -- which begins with the fact that humans are naturally
0:02:35 > 0:02:46violent, we know in the 20th-century, we know that... Can we
0:02:46 > 0:02:48not think of a different type of politics? I think human beings...
0:02:48 > 0:02:54APPLAUSE Philip Dunne, lots to get our teeth
0:02:54 > 0:02:58into, let me ask you about Saudi Arabia, why are we sucking up to a
0:02:58 > 0:03:06regime which has caused thousands of deaths in the Yemen, it flogs
0:03:06 > 0:03:09atheist bloggers, stages public beheadings, kills homosexuals,
0:03:09 > 0:03:16spreads extremism across the world...I will answer that in the
0:03:16 > 0:03:24second. I must pick up Brad's comments...Do the Saudi Arabia
0:03:24 > 0:03:30point first.Should we haven't military? -- should we have a
0:03:30 > 0:03:37military?Saudi Arabia first.2007, the crown princes at it, to
0:03:37 > 0:03:44encourage him in the work he is doing in modernising his nation, the
0:03:44 > 0:03:47first leader of that most important country in the Gulf, a key UK ally
0:03:47 > 0:03:54in trying to get to grips with decades of internal repression and
0:03:54 > 0:03:57corruption and trying to introduce moderate Islam, rather than the
0:03:57 > 0:04:01extreme version they have been having, trying to modernise the
0:04:01 > 0:04:07economy, he has tried to do a lot of good stuff very quickly. It is
0:04:07 > 0:04:12absolutely right we should welcome him to this country, to try to
0:04:12 > 0:04:15encourage him in what he is doing, and the package you referred to
0:04:15 > 0:04:21about the defence potential, it was a small element of a much bigger
0:04:21 > 0:04:25programme of economic cooperation. It is not a small element of the
0:04:25 > 0:04:29people in Yemen suffering, being killed by the Saudi bombing. It is
0:04:29 > 0:04:33really about whitewashing the Saudi war crimes and unfortunately that is
0:04:33 > 0:04:38what we see in the UK's relationship with Saudi Arabia, it is based
0:04:38 > 0:04:42largely around the arms trade and we know what the arms are being used
0:04:42 > 0:04:48for, for war crimes, for attacks on civilians, attacks on
0:04:48 > 0:04:52infrastructure. As long as the UK is selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, we
0:04:52 > 0:04:58are complicit in the violence and we have to put an end to it.The Army
0:04:58 > 0:05:05point. We need to have an army.I do not think that is the question at
0:05:05 > 0:05:10hand, actually.We have plenty of time, I would like to address that,
0:05:10 > 0:05:14Brad said we do not necessarily need one.In an ideal world, no one wants
0:05:14 > 0:05:18to see a world with the conflict we have right now and we should keep
0:05:18 > 0:05:22our eye on that aim. In the meantime, there are specific things
0:05:22 > 0:05:29we can do to reduce and to stop some of the worst humanitarian crises,
0:05:29 > 0:05:33some of the worst crimes happening in this world, and that arms trade
0:05:33 > 0:05:37is fuelling war and conflict around the world and the UK is playing a
0:05:37 > 0:05:40central role in that so the first thing we should be doing is ending
0:05:40 > 0:05:45the arms trade to countries like Saudi Arabia, many other countries,
0:05:45 > 0:05:48committing war crimes, we know what the arms are being used for, we
0:05:48 > 0:05:53cannot let them go in that way.I am sure we will come onto this, but the
0:05:53 > 0:05:57court threw out the allegation that there was clear evidence of
0:05:57 > 0:06:05humanitarian...It is clear.It was thrown out by the court. The
0:06:05 > 0:06:10question web Brad started us off, why do we have an army? We have an
0:06:10 > 0:06:16army to defend the country from threat and the threats are multiple
0:06:16 > 0:06:18and growing, staked on state threats, we thought following the
0:06:18 > 0:06:23cold war much of that was behind us, it is evident we cannot, and we are
0:06:23 > 0:06:30seeing now threats coming daily, every minute, threats coming across
0:06:30 > 0:06:34the internet affecting all of our lives potentially, and much of those
0:06:34 > 0:06:38threats are dealt with with military capability.Attacks on civilians in
0:06:38 > 0:06:48Yemen and other places, for our security, that is preposterous.The
0:06:48 > 0:06:52attack in Salisbury last weekend, British military scientists who
0:06:52 > 0:06:58developed the diagnostic tests which helped stamp out the Ebola virus...
0:06:58 > 0:07:03And also in the 50s, developed nerve agents as well.Getting back to the
0:07:03 > 0:07:07topic of defence exports and capability, defence industry
0:07:07 > 0:07:12supports the military in this country and the innovation and are
0:07:12 > 0:07:19indeed that comes with that, from space, which helped to generate our
0:07:19 > 0:07:28GPS, huge civilian crossover which would not exist -- R&D.The idea
0:07:28 > 0:07:34that an army existed defend a nation is an art model. It is international
0:07:34 > 0:07:44peacekeeping, so called humanitarian and peacekeeping, in terms of the
0:07:44 > 0:07:48arms trade...They cannot do it with chocolate is. There is a fundamental
0:07:48 > 0:07:54contradiction.On the one hand saying we need to go to Iraq and
0:07:54 > 0:07:57liberate them, and then they will sell arms to regime is going
0:07:57 > 0:08:02precisely against the democratic movement of the Arab Spring.We end
0:08:02 > 0:08:07up with Isis.There is a fundamental conflict. The fundamental question,
0:08:07 > 0:08:11you are right, the question about the Army is an existential question,
0:08:11 > 0:08:15it is a fundamental aim which we should all try to achieve because
0:08:15 > 0:08:19rather than saying, let us monopolise violence, let us put
0:08:19 > 0:08:23violence itself constantly on trial, but the arms trade is the starting
0:08:23 > 0:08:29point, what does it mean to demilitarise the world?James
0:08:29 > 0:08:39McLaren.It is to establish the aspect of the world order to
0:08:45 > 0:08:47establish and maintain armies and Armed Forces, it will happen, and
0:08:47 > 0:08:50while you have that, you will have an arms trade.The challenge is to
0:08:50 > 0:08:52make sure it is properly regulated, controlled unchallenged. Is it,
0:08:52 > 0:08:55James?If you're going to ask about this country, my view is, yes,
0:08:55 > 0:09:00but... The reason I say that, in 2002, the then Labour government
0:09:00 > 0:09:04introduced the export controls that, the first time legislation around
0:09:04 > 0:09:08arms sales had been reintroduced since 1931, a stepping stone. Since
0:09:08 > 0:09:13then, we have got much better in this country with a cross
0:09:13 > 0:09:16participation of government departments to make sure our exports
0:09:16 > 0:09:21are undertaken legitimately and appropriately.Still arming Saudi
0:09:21 > 0:09:30Arabia, Egypt...16,000 export licences go unchallenged every year.
0:09:30 > 0:09:38No one is challenging us about selling operational patrol boats.
0:09:38 > 0:09:44The. We will come back to what is admittedly a very debatable area of
0:09:44 > 0:09:49arms exports, to Saudi Arabia, but at the strategic level, arms sales
0:09:49 > 0:09:54will take place.It about the regulations.Andrew Smith. UK
0:09:54 > 0:10:03fighter jets are right now dropping bombs over Yemen. If the UK
0:10:03 > 0:10:07Government, it has been totally complicit in it. This week we have
0:10:07 > 0:10:11seen how low the Government is prepared to sink to sell weapons to
0:10:11 > 0:10:16a dictatorship.If you did not have those bombs, you would have Russian
0:10:16 > 0:10:23analogue unguided cluster munitions doing it. You would not have
0:10:23 > 0:10:26oversight in the Saudi chain of command of what actually is going
0:10:26 > 0:10:30on.This is where there is a rank hypocrisy at the heart of the
0:10:30 > 0:10:34foreign policy based on talking about imports of human rights and
0:10:34 > 0:10:38democracy while also arming and supporting brutal regime is. Even
0:10:38 > 0:10:44mentioning Russia, for example, the UK was exporting weapons to Russia
0:10:44 > 0:10:48until 2014, and we are exporting to China as we speak, all around the
0:10:48 > 0:10:51world, to regime is we would all agree have inflicted terrible brutal
0:10:51 > 0:10:59assaults on human rights...You represent a lot of people working in
0:10:59 > 0:11:02the arms industry as well, are they conflicted when they realise where
0:11:02 > 0:11:09the end product, the end destination, if you like, of their
0:11:09 > 0:11:12labours are going?They care about the end destination, but the choices
0:11:12 > 0:11:17in terms of the use of the arms for politicians the regime 's that
0:11:17 > 0:11:22actually have them. We as a union take the view that military
0:11:22 > 0:11:26deployment is the responsibility of politicians and the government, but
0:11:26 > 0:11:30once the Armed Forces are deployed on civilians and support, they are
0:11:30 > 0:11:34entitled to the best resources to support them. There has been an
0:11:34 > 0:11:39interesting iteration of the debate already, the arms trade, but we are
0:11:39 > 0:11:44rapidly talking about manufacture of arms in any form, at all. I think
0:11:44 > 0:11:48whilst people can have deep concerns about the use of arms
0:11:48 > 0:11:52internationally exported, the idea that people do not want us to
0:11:52 > 0:11:55manufacture arms to at least defend national interests, but as a whole
0:11:55 > 0:11:59other debate. Critically, we are talking about hundreds of thousands
0:11:59 > 0:12:04of jobs here and I have no qualms about pointing that out. These are
0:12:04 > 0:12:09jobs that are vital to communities...High quality.One of
0:12:09 > 0:12:17the things that I think Brad touches on, not a single product for defence
0:12:17 > 0:12:22workers, it needs to be calm and evidence -based, the debate, because
0:12:22 > 0:12:25history tells us defence diversification is not particularly
0:12:25 > 0:12:30successful. We talk about it but the case studies do not show much in the
0:12:30 > 0:12:32way of success. Defence diversification would be happening
0:12:32 > 0:12:36at a time when more than one part of our economy is looking at the
0:12:36 > 0:12:40question of transition, a lot of members in energy, often an adjacent
0:12:40 > 0:12:47sector to defence, changes from large power stations to renewable...
0:12:47 > 0:12:51A whole chain of industry is involved and there is a simple limit
0:12:51 > 0:13:00to the extent to which we can diversify quickly.What would these
0:13:00 > 0:13:03people do, Ryvka Barnard?It is a really important question and what
0:13:03 > 0:13:07we need is decision-makers to be putting attention to that question
0:13:07 > 0:13:11very specifically.What is the answer?Everyone should have access
0:13:11 > 0:13:15to good jobs providing good livelihoods and it is a question of
0:13:15 > 0:13:18political will, we need to be forward-looking and visionary.Where
0:13:18 > 0:13:23would you put that expertise?We need to look at what is the
0:13:23 > 0:13:26investment in industry that could create and sustain thousands and
0:13:26 > 0:13:31thousands of jobs?What might it be? Not leading to the destruction and
0:13:31 > 0:13:37death that the arms trade is. Renewable energy is one. It is a
0:13:37 > 0:13:39question of political will, not necessarily a question of
0:13:39 > 0:13:45feasibility and we need more studies and careful attention to this.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49Renewables is the source of jobs which is quoted by every group
0:13:49 > 0:13:53interested in diversification. We will have to create a lot of
0:13:53 > 0:13:56renewables jobs to soak up the displaced jobs.It is a very urgent
0:13:56 > 0:14:03issue in our world.We hear about the industrial military complex,
0:14:03 > 0:14:06real relationships between politicians and arms manufacturers,
0:14:06 > 0:14:11when you were ministers for defence procurement, I'm sure you had a lot
0:14:11 > 0:14:15of meetings with arms manufacturers? We have a very significant industry
0:14:15 > 0:14:22in this country, as Mike says, employing many people.People are
0:14:22 > 0:14:27worried about those relationships. Many are providing and doing
0:14:27 > 0:14:35multiple things. They did at the moment for GKN, a major motor
0:14:35 > 0:14:39component manufacturer, and also in aerospace and defence. Much of the
0:14:39 > 0:14:45key issue is innovation that comes out of investing primarily initially
0:14:45 > 0:14:48for military purposes and carrying over which would not happen if we
0:14:48 > 0:14:53did not have a defence purpose. Hands up, a word on the
0:14:53 > 0:14:57relationships and what people worry about, a symbiotic relationship
0:14:57 > 0:15:02between the politicians and the arms industry, is that a genuine concern?
0:15:02 > 0:15:07The arms industry is a very small part of the economy, export jobs
0:15:07 > 0:15:12account for 0.2% of jobs in the country, a very loud voice and
0:15:12 > 0:15:16power. It does employ extremely skilled people and we want the
0:15:16 > 0:15:20skills put into more positive areas of engineering to have a more
0:15:20 > 0:15:28positive impact, not an industry which leads to war and conflict.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31Such us, renewables?Renewables would be one area, we need to look
0:15:31 > 0:15:36at other areas, what can the Government do to grow the areas? The
0:15:36 > 0:15:39arms trade as a huge amount of political support and logistical
0:15:39 > 0:15:43support from Whitehall and the emphasis needs to be put elsewhere.
0:15:43 > 0:15:48Is there a genuine concern between the relationship between politicians
0:15:48 > 0:15:54and the arms industry or is Philip Dunne right, are they necessary?
0:15:54 > 0:16:04There has to be a real concern. The Royal family has been seeing to be
0:16:04 > 0:16:12involved in arms promotion.We have become embedded and people listen to
0:16:12 > 0:16:21it.With the war in Yemen, where is the diplomatic way to start that?We
0:16:21 > 0:16:30can talk about the war in Yemen if you like.Let's talk about the
0:16:30 > 0:16:34influence we can wield in those situations, bringing Saudi Arabia on
0:16:34 > 0:16:40that progressive past. Some people argue that... I will come to you in
0:16:40 > 0:16:45a minute. Who is proud of our arms industry in the audience? That's
0:16:45 > 0:16:50come to you if you are. He was ashamed of our arms industry?You
0:16:50 > 0:16:56are proud of it. At the end of the day, it is fair. 142,000 people are
0:16:56 > 0:17:01employed in it. It is beneficial to the country in general.A lot of
0:17:01 > 0:17:09jobs. Anyone else want to say anything?Morning. Nobody here would
0:17:09 > 0:17:14want, given the choice, nobody here would want to arm any nation. It
0:17:14 > 0:17:19would be fantastic if we didn't have a need for arms. As we do, like the
0:17:19 > 0:17:24gentleman in front of me mentioned, we have to live in the world as it
0:17:24 > 0:17:33is and be pragmatic about things. There are certain areas that take us
0:17:33 > 0:17:38to Amman where they are repressing freedom of association and that is
0:17:38 > 0:17:42not a good idea.We should scrutinise what we sell. To buy the
0:17:42 > 0:17:48argument that if we were not selling arms to these people than the would?
0:17:48 > 0:17:55We have to live in the real world and look after our own interests.
0:17:55 > 0:18:00Our own strategic interests. It is kind of a soft power, isn't it?The
0:18:00 > 0:18:04term, security, and the phrase strategic interests get used to
0:18:04 > 0:18:08cover up what really is politicians and arms dealers getting together
0:18:08 > 0:18:13and making a profit actually. Where is the strategic interest for war
0:18:13 > 0:18:17crimes in Yemen for the killing of civilians, thousands of civilians,
0:18:17 > 0:18:21many of whom are children? How does that meet any strategic interest of
0:18:21 > 0:18:29the UK?One of the operational tasks of the British navy which has been
0:18:29 > 0:18:34in place for the last 15 years or so, has been to keep through our
0:18:34 > 0:18:37minesweeping vessels the channels between the Gulf and outside the
0:18:37 > 0:18:45golf open from harassment from Iranians attempts to block those
0:18:45 > 0:18:50channels. That provides the vast majority of our gas resource, which
0:18:50 > 0:18:57comes out of the Gulf and oil into this country and other countries
0:18:57 > 0:19:01around the world. That activity is being provided by the British
0:19:01 > 0:19:06military in conjunction with our allies and in particular your
0:19:06 > 0:19:10countrymen in the US. If we weren't doing that, there would be a serious
0:19:10 > 0:19:17risk of disruption of supplies to the energy of this country. How many
0:19:17 > 0:19:21lives? No lives have been lost through that.What do you mean, what
0:19:21 > 0:19:28is the cost?There is a cost of war and a cost of conflict.It is not
0:19:28 > 0:19:33conflict, it is preventing conflict. People are being killed in Yemen or
0:19:33 > 0:19:40other places.
0:19:40 > 0:19:44other places.We are missing how the real world works. That is how the
0:19:44 > 0:19:50real world works. The war in Yemen is a legitimate war. It is not being
0:19:50 > 0:19:54prosecuted as it should be but you are not helping the people of Yemen
0:19:54 > 0:19:58who are suffering so much if you remove what are highly capable
0:19:58 > 0:20:03munitions with people who are able to use them and advise on them with
0:20:03 > 0:20:07the unguided, horrible weapons we are seeing used in Syria if you want
0:20:07 > 0:20:12to replace British munitions with Russian barrel bombs or Syrian
0:20:12 > 0:20:17barrel bombs that will not help the Yemen people.There is something the
0:20:17 > 0:20:21arms trade does in terms of the Logic applied to this industry and
0:20:21 > 0:20:27nothing else. Our refill of Columbia started to say, we are proud of our
0:20:27 > 0:20:31cocaine industry? We know it kills people. We can regulate it better
0:20:31 > 0:20:35but another nation will produce cocaine so we might as well produce
0:20:35 > 0:20:45it. If we apply the logic that, why do we apply this logic. In that
0:20:45 > 0:20:51kills people? This is the logic we need to be happening.What about the
0:20:51 > 0:20:56cocaine analogy?The Constitution of Armed Forces bears no relationship
0:20:56 > 0:20:59whatsoever to the cocaine industry. That is another rabbit hole
0:20:59 > 0:21:05compensation.People in Yemen are injuring one of the worst
0:21:05 > 0:21:10humanitarian crises in the world. In 2017 50,000 children died of
0:21:10 > 0:21:14preventable causes. We have seen 1 million people being affected with
0:21:14 > 0:21:18cholera in Yemen following a breakdown of health infrastructure
0:21:18 > 0:21:21up and down the country. This does not suggest the Saudi intervention
0:21:21 > 0:21:25is doing any that things were ever told it would. It suggests Saudi
0:21:25 > 0:21:31forces are not being moderated by UK influence. What about Iran? They are
0:21:31 > 0:21:35playing a negative role in the region full is we do not support
0:21:35 > 0:21:41selling weapons to Iran. We do not support selling arms to Iran, nor
0:21:41 > 0:21:44selling more arms into a region which Reddy has quite enough arms
0:21:44 > 0:21:50and quite enough conflict.Is the international response to Yemen
0:21:50 > 0:21:54good? No, it is not. Would the removal of UK armaments to that
0:21:54 > 0:21:59debate make any difference? No, it would not.It would make it worse.
0:21:59 > 0:22:04It would make a difference? Absolutely it would. The arms are
0:22:04 > 0:22:13fuelling the conflict and causing civilian deaths. It would absolutely
0:22:13 > 0:22:18interrupted the conflict. Instead of focusing energy on arming the
0:22:18 > 0:22:22aggressor in that situation, we would be able to redirect resources
0:22:22 > 0:22:27into looking at the humanitarian crisis.What about getting on the
0:22:27 > 0:22:34phone to Putin?It is as those they are the only two possibilities. It
0:22:34 > 0:22:38is an over syndication of how international politics works. It is
0:22:38 > 0:22:42not as simple as one or the other, as though that is the end of the
0:22:42 > 0:22:46conversation. We need to be accountable in this country for what
0:22:46 > 0:22:49our government does, and the decisions that the Government is
0:22:49 > 0:22:53making here. The arms trade with Saudi Arabia and other repressive
0:22:53 > 0:22:59regimes around the world has two end.OK.Yes. Hello. Good morning.
0:22:59 > 0:23:06We should be accountable. Why can't we make a stand and say we care more
0:23:06 > 0:23:09about human rights than making money?What about jobs?What about
0:23:09 > 0:23:18all the jobs? I know the jobs White human are sacrificed.If it is about
0:23:18 > 0:23:21jobs versus human rights committee is not a true choice.It is being
0:23:21 > 0:23:26presented in that way in the context of a debate. The UK at his two
0:23:26 > 0:23:32international treaties and has a strong record on transparency. The
0:23:32 > 0:23:36current events in the Middle East and Saudi Arabia require the most
0:23:36 > 0:23:41careful investigation and suspension in relation to that particular
0:23:41 > 0:23:45aspect of the arms trade. We get very close when we moved from the
0:23:45 > 0:23:50arms trade to manufacture of weapons more generally. People in this
0:23:50 > 0:23:53country don't expect national security be expected. To give is the
0:23:53 > 0:24:01rule of law and the space to have debates like this. Arms provide the
0:24:01 > 0:24:03rule of law ultimately. They provide circumstances in which we can have
0:24:03 > 0:24:11these debates.If you don't mind... I will come to you to come to that.
0:24:11 > 0:24:16Let me just go to the audience.I am not sure it should be a clear-cut
0:24:16 > 0:24:20thing as to whether we should be proud of our arms industry in
0:24:20 > 0:24:27general. We can give our military defence without having to sell 48
0:24:27 > 0:24:31Typhoon jets to Saudi Arabia. We are still saving some jobs and we don't
0:24:31 > 0:24:35need to fuel the anti-human rights countries but we can still provide
0:24:35 > 0:24:41our country defence.We have to be realistic. Coming back to what this
0:24:41 > 0:24:51gentleman said, about keeping the avenues to bring things back into
0:24:51 > 0:24:59the Suez Canal. I have been on two cruises in Dubai, Muscat, by
0:24:59 > 0:25:03Somalia, by Saudi Arabia, through the Suez Canal. When you see on the
0:25:03 > 0:25:13map, Saudi Arabia is a very big part and to be able to protect us, we
0:25:13 > 0:25:17have had frigates there. They have to protect against Somalia. There is
0:25:17 > 0:25:22a Japanese frigate there to keep the Suez Canal open.You need arms to do
0:25:22 > 0:25:27that?We have to trust the politicians who know the full
0:25:27 > 0:25:31details to be there.The human rights abuses of people in Yemen is
0:25:31 > 0:25:35not contingent on us having a safe holiday in the Suez Canal. We have
0:25:35 > 0:25:41to relate these questions much more broadly and reducing it to economic
0:25:41 > 0:25:44official way of justifying violence. You remove the ethical question. I
0:25:44 > 0:25:48am not saying that overnight all of these populations would become
0:25:48 > 0:25:53unemployed but I do think the research in investment, millions
0:25:53 > 0:25:57goes into research and development in the military. Why is it we have
0:25:57 > 0:26:02this model where all the money for research and developers goes into
0:26:02 > 0:26:09the military diagram for power? That is a political choice.I'm afraid
0:26:09 > 0:26:14that has to be counted. The conflict in Yemen was not started by us
0:26:14 > 0:26:17supplying arms to Saudi Arabia. It was a civil war that had been going
0:26:17 > 0:26:21on for four years. It was a request to the Saudis by the legitimate
0:26:21 > 0:26:27government of the yen -- the Yemen for an intervention to try to bring
0:26:27 > 0:26:32it to an end. The rebels were starting to use Iranians missiles to
0:26:32 > 0:26:36fire into Saudi Arabia. It was a legitimate intervention. The
0:26:36 > 0:26:39allegation it has led to war crimes are serious allegations which were
0:26:39 > 0:26:44put by people on your side of the argument. Took the British
0:26:44 > 0:26:46government to court and Parliamentary committees agreed it
0:26:46 > 0:26:50was appropriate for the courts to make a decision as to whether or not
0:26:50 > 0:26:54international he managed Terry and laws have been broken. The courts
0:26:54 > 0:27:02decided quite clearly that was not the case. -- humanitarian laws.The
0:27:02 > 0:27:10regime in Yemen has a right to be able to defend itself.Do they not?
0:27:10 > 0:27:15None of that has anything to do with the UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia or
0:27:15 > 0:27:20other places. There is a political map we must pay attention to and
0:27:20 > 0:27:25look at. Absolutely. That is the argument we are making. When the
0:27:25 > 0:27:30arms trade is at the centre of that analysis, or at the centre of the
0:27:30 > 0:27:34conversation, at the centre of investment, we cannot have an open
0:27:34 > 0:27:37and transparent conversation about it because it is being dominated by
0:27:37 > 0:27:42the sort of need for more arms constantly. Our politicians are not
0:27:42 > 0:27:46going to be making honest decisions about this if they are being wined
0:27:46 > 0:27:49and dined by the arms industry constantly which is unfortunately
0:27:49 > 0:27:55the case with many of the politicians.To go to court is the
0:27:55 > 0:28:00highest level of scrutiny you can have. The court agreed it had
0:28:00 > 0:28:04happened but also what has happened is the Saudis definitely have an
0:28:04 > 0:28:07operational problem in the use of some of the munitions they have. No
0:28:07 > 0:28:12doubt about that. The UK Government has offered more training and advice
0:28:12 > 0:28:16on it and it is giving that to them. There was a point made earlier about
0:28:16 > 0:28:20why research and develop and is so important. The reason is that is how
0:28:20 > 0:28:23we have been able to generate the next level of weapons technology
0:28:23 > 0:28:28which we are able to discriminate. In writing capable hands there is
0:28:28 > 0:28:32not collateral damage you would have had in previous conflicts we're not
0:28:32 > 0:28:38bearing that in mind.Just finally, by having trade contacts with these
0:28:38 > 0:28:46countries and seeing it and framing it in the way of self power, this is
0:28:46 > 0:28:51a big part of this and you will have a say on this, can we exert an
0:28:51 > 0:28:56influence and bring countries, because the Prince is a progressive
0:28:56 > 0:28:59prince, a reforming prince, can we encourage that by having dialogues
0:28:59 > 0:29:04that go in tandem with these sales? Absolutely not. It is a myth
0:29:04 > 0:29:12actually. You cannot have influence and to stop violence for example
0:29:12 > 0:29:18while giving alms to the perpetrator of violence.Theresa May is raising
0:29:18 > 0:29:23issues with him.Not while providing him with weapons. Not just him, it
0:29:23 > 0:29:26is actually a long problem with Saudi Arabia and many other
0:29:26 > 0:29:31repressive regimes around the world. You don't stop violence by giving
0:29:31 > 0:29:34weapons to the perpetrator of violence. It has never happened and
0:29:34 > 0:29:41it is not how it works.We have to leave it there. I'm so sorry. If you
0:29:41 > 0:29:46have any views on obesity, please be free to come in on the next debate.
0:29:46 > 0:29:49Thank you very much indeed.
0:29:49 > 0:29:52You can join in all this morning's debates by logging
0:29:52 > 0:29:53on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and following the link
0:29:53 > 0:29:54to the online discussion.
0:29:54 > 0:30:02Or you can tweet using #bbctbq.
0:30:03 > 0:30:05I always look at that after the show.
0:30:05 > 0:30:08Tell us what you think about our next Big Question too.
0:30:08 > 0:30:10Is obesity a matter of personal responsibility?
0:30:10 > 0:30:12And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience
0:30:12 > 0:30:14at a future show, you can email audiencetbq@mentorn.tv.
0:30:14 > 0:30:17We're in Brighton next week, then Glasgow on March 25th.
0:30:17 > 0:30:21After the Easter break, we'll be in York on April 8th
0:30:21 > 0:30:23to make two editions - the usual live programme
0:30:23 > 0:30:26in the morning, then we're recording a one-hour special on the future
0:30:26 > 0:30:34of the National Health Service in the afternoon.
0:30:36 > 0:30:39Britain needs to go on a diet, according to the head
0:30:39 > 0:30:41of Public Health England, Duncan Selbie.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44"Children and adults routinely eat too many calories,
0:30:44 > 0:30:48and it's why so many are overweight or obese," he said this week.
0:30:48 > 0:30:51He wants a 20% reduction in the calories contained
0:30:51 > 0:30:56in foods like pizzas, ready meals, processed
0:30:56 > 0:30:59meats, and takeaways over the next six years.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02If food manufacturers don't heed his advice,
0:31:02 > 0:31:06he'll ask the Government to legislate, just as they have
0:31:06 > 0:31:09done with the sugar tax on sweetened soft drinks,
0:31:09 > 0:31:13which comes into force next month.
0:31:13 > 0:31:16No one is forced to consume sugary drinks or eat fatty foods.
0:31:16 > 0:31:18It's a matter of personal taste and choice.
0:31:18 > 0:31:21Is obesity a matter of personal responsibility?
0:31:21 > 0:31:29Ashley, good morning. We need to do something, we need to ban junk food
0:31:29 > 0:31:35advertising, this sugar tax, a fact tax, teach people to limit calories
0:31:35 > 0:31:40--
0:31:41 > 0:31:49-- fat tax. Something must be done. I would disagree with that. A lot of
0:31:49 > 0:31:53what is propose would make things worse. There is a need to temper
0:31:53 > 0:31:59some of the hyperbole with which the issue is being communicated. It will
0:31:59 > 0:32:07only make sense of speaking of it as an academic if it is a
0:32:07 > 0:32:13life-threatening disease, it is not. Very very thin people and very, very
0:32:13 > 0:32:18fat people. There is a slightly decreased risk of mortality in the
0:32:18 > 0:32:21so-called overweight category. There is a lot of moralism and I think
0:32:21 > 0:32:27this issue is a way of communicating aesthetic and moral and behavioural
0:32:27 > 0:32:33judgments, how people should think, act and behave through a medicalised
0:32:33 > 0:32:35vocabulary because policymakers have lost the vocabulary to communicate
0:32:35 > 0:32:39with the public in any other way. Kathleen, you do not think there is
0:32:39 > 0:32:44any need for sugary drinks?You would ban them? I think they should
0:32:44 > 0:32:51be banned. I do not think there is any feasible reason to have a two
0:32:51 > 0:32:57litre drink that can pack 1000 calories in a 500 millilitres
0:32:57 > 0:33:03serving, it is ridiculous.You do not have to drink it all at once.
0:33:03 > 0:33:09No, but why would you choose to have 14 sugars in your cup of coffee? It
0:33:09 > 0:33:14is the same thing. Why put it in a drink when there is no need.How
0:33:14 > 0:33:21would you stop people drinking it? This is where we get to the morally
0:33:21 > 0:33:29ambiguous area.We are there!People have the choice of what they are
0:33:29 > 0:33:33going to put in the body, absolutely. However, we have to
0:33:33 > 0:33:43admit and understands that we do live in what is... It is a state run
0:33:43 > 0:33:47education system, everything is led by the Government and the way we
0:33:47 > 0:33:50live our lives and that access to education we receive and everything
0:33:50 > 0:33:55else is given to us by our government. When it comes to sugary
0:33:55 > 0:34:00drinks especially, should parents have the right to serve their
0:34:00 > 0:34:06children that much sugar when we know...Should they? When we know
0:34:06 > 0:34:14the health ramifications of that... Should they have that right?
0:34:14 > 0:34:18Personally, I don't think so. I do not think any parent in their right
0:34:18 > 0:34:28mind should be feeding an infant something...What about an ice
0:34:28 > 0:34:34cream?Come on! Ice cream is a treat.A drink is a treat.You do
0:34:34 > 0:34:39not have a drink as a treat, you have them daily. When we are talking
0:34:39 > 0:34:43about the consumption of sugary drinks, you generally find those
0:34:43 > 0:34:47people who have the sugary drinks, it builds an almost addiction so
0:34:47 > 0:34:53they drink more and children, we are seeing dental problems.This is what
0:34:53 > 0:34:59I am talking about, how it has become a way of talking about a lot
0:34:59 > 0:35:01of preoccupations, a lot of ambivalence about parenting in
0:35:01 > 0:35:10society right now, there is a distrust of pounds has been able to
0:35:10 > 0:35:15exercise has an ability -- there is a distrust of parents being able to
0:35:15 > 0:35:19exercise responsibility for the next generation, this idea of a hapless
0:35:19 > 0:35:22parent pumping sugar into their children.I absolutely agree with
0:35:22 > 0:35:29you.We enlist children into this as a way of saying, people can make the
0:35:29 > 0:35:35choice to live their lives as they choose, but think of the children.
0:35:35 > 0:35:40If we remove the children from the equation, we know cigarettes are
0:35:40 > 0:35:45very harmful and alcohol, cigarettes and alcohol are taxed extremely
0:35:45 > 0:35:50highly...They are not banned.They are put out of the financial reach
0:35:50 > 0:35:56of a lot of people. You bring in this question, is it only the poor
0:35:56 > 0:36:04people who will suffer from the sugar tax? Is it only the property
0:36:04 > 0:36:08stricken -- poverty stricken parent...The taxes will not do
0:36:08 > 0:36:13anything, it is symbolic politics, the sense we know the causes of the
0:36:13 > 0:36:18obesity problem, we know what to do...Why not just get rid of the
0:36:18 > 0:36:24sugary drink substance that we know causes harm?Getting a very hard
0:36:24 > 0:36:27time, the food industry, in all this, get rid of half of their
0:36:27 > 0:36:32products, they are seen as some people... Cocaine mentioned in the
0:36:32 > 0:36:36last debate, some people look on them as drug dealers.I think this
0:36:36 > 0:36:42is because the Government does not feel it can do much about physical
0:36:42 > 0:36:47activity, it is a rise of sedentary lifestyles and jobs in particular
0:36:47 > 0:36:52that has gone along with the rise of obesity but it can do something
0:36:52 > 0:36:56about the food industry. We see tobacco style regulations being put
0:36:56 > 0:37:01forward, junk food brand on television, health warnings...Are
0:37:01 > 0:37:08they a good thing?Absolutely not. Very damaging to those...Why? There
0:37:08 > 0:37:14is no such thing as junk food.No legal definition. We have food high
0:37:14 > 0:37:20in fat, sugar and salt and it is a huge range of products. We would not
0:37:20 > 0:37:24see Nigella Lawson's Christmas adverts until after the watershed if
0:37:24 > 0:37:28this ban came in, sugary drinks, chocolate bars, bacon, cheese,
0:37:28 > 0:37:36orange juice... That would be bad for business and consumers and the
0:37:36 > 0:37:39media, not the BBC, but the commercial stations, the so-called
0:37:39 > 0:37:47junk food brand...It is a tale of two industries, the arms industry
0:37:47 > 0:37:51and the food industry, tremendously important this country.It is,
0:37:51 > 0:37:55similar in the sense because people are blaming...One comes quickly,
0:37:55 > 0:37:59the other comes slowly.What is going on currently and what will
0:37:59 > 0:38:04happen over the next three, four years, with this crazy policy of
0:38:04 > 0:38:08reducing calories in food by 20%, we will see products getting much less
0:38:08 > 0:38:14tasty, and we will see them get smaller because a lot of them, you
0:38:14 > 0:38:17cannot reformulate them to make them healthier, you have to make them
0:38:17 > 0:38:22smaller. People are blaming it on Brexit, smaller chocolate bars, it
0:38:22 > 0:38:27is Public Health England's targets, it is a rip-off, very bad for
0:38:27 > 0:38:33consumers, not doing anything for obesity.Professor Nadim Haboubi, a
0:38:33 > 0:38:36consultant, chairman of the Welsh obesity society, a matter of choice?
0:38:36 > 0:38:45It is not. Absolutely not. Obesity the disease,, A complex disease. I
0:38:45 > 0:38:53see thousands of patients over the last many years, so many reasons why
0:38:53 > 0:38:56they are wood-macro, genetics, environmental, social, they are
0:38:56 > 0:39:04desperate to lose weight, so many factors that have made them obese --
0:39:04 > 0:39:08they are obese. It is about activity, not just food, it is about
0:39:08 > 0:39:12sedentary lives, these people need help. Help from wire? Health
0:39:12 > 0:39:20professionals, the media. -- help from where? The Government. Who had
0:39:20 > 0:39:23the power to coordinate all of this in order to combat the silent
0:39:23 > 0:39:31killer, the disease, obesity? Only the government. I think the
0:39:31 > 0:39:35government should... I am one of those who advocate there should be
0:39:35 > 0:39:43tax on junk food because junk food now is very affordable, that is why
0:39:43 > 0:39:52I practice in the hottest obesity spot in the UK.What is junk food?
0:39:52 > 0:39:57Anything high in calories, fat, sugar and salt.A little does you
0:39:57 > 0:40:02good, now and again, once a week? Wait a minute.They can is one of
0:40:02 > 0:40:07the great joys of life.It is a killer. -- acre Babb is one of the
0:40:07 > 0:40:16great joys of life. You have to run three miles to burn it off.If that
0:40:16 > 0:40:23is the deal, that is the deal!You want to translate food into this
0:40:23 > 0:40:27biochemical thing, but only so much good in your mouth as the powers
0:40:27 > 0:40:32deem acceptable, but that is not what food is about, it is a social
0:40:32 > 0:40:37thing, a cultural thing, continuity between generations, enjoyment, all
0:40:37 > 0:40:41of this hectoring people, it turns off a huge portion of the population
0:40:41 > 0:40:46from the political class because it offers nothing to people accept...
0:40:46 > 0:40:50The future will be terrible, we will take away your small pleasures, that
0:40:50 > 0:40:56sort of thing, people are, like, no, thanks.The people having take away
0:40:56 > 0:41:01several times a day, is that a choice? Why are they doing that?
0:41:01 > 0:41:09They need help.I would like to add in the, Professor Haboubi, I think
0:41:09 > 0:41:17obesity.Can I introduce you? Holly MacGillivray, plus size model,
0:41:17 > 0:41:23positive body campaigner.It is one of the only accepted prejudices
0:41:23 > 0:41:27still out there. I do not have a moral obligation to be smaller, to
0:41:27 > 0:41:32go on a diet, to fit into your idea of what I should look like and
0:41:32 > 0:41:36which... APPLAUSE
0:41:36 > 0:41:41And once again, we are making stereotypes.Do you think I eat a
0:41:41 > 0:41:47takeaway every day, Professor Haboubi?Did I say that?You said,
0:41:47 > 0:41:53these people, I am wood-macro, I am not eating a takeaway every night --
0:41:53 > 0:42:01I am obese.I said it is complicated by many factors, not caused only by
0:42:01 > 0:42:07eating junk food, so many things. Emotional things, psychological
0:42:07 > 0:42:12things. I deal with the subject in an individualised manner.What do
0:42:12 > 0:42:18you think of the body positive idea? The bigger you are, the more
0:42:18 > 0:42:21unhealthy you are, whether you like it or not. If you are well and
0:42:21 > 0:42:27healthy at the age of 20, if you are not diabetic now, you are
0:42:27 > 0:42:31prediabetic, maybe...I agree, of course, the bigger you are, the more
0:42:31 > 0:42:34and healthy you are, I am not ignorant of science, I totally
0:42:34 > 0:42:38understand, if you eat too many calories, your waistband will
0:42:38 > 0:42:46expand. However, it is not that simple.Cancer is more common in
0:42:46 > 0:42:54those who are obese.This narrative of we are eating too many calories,
0:42:54 > 0:42:59it makes a nice, simple public health message, but the science is
0:42:59 > 0:43:02not that straightforward, it is extraordinarily complicated. Say we
0:43:02 > 0:43:06will reduce the calories in the food, a huge amount of the science
0:43:06 > 0:43:10is going the other direction, that means we will probably put more
0:43:10 > 0:43:13carbohydrate in the food and people will get more hungry or reduce
0:43:13 > 0:43:22portion sizes, Hector even more, bad morality, making it difficult to
0:43:22 > 0:43:30have good policy advice.How do you manage the problem of obesity?
0:43:30 > 0:43:33Ashley, answer his question.I do not think there is a problem of
0:43:33 > 0:43:40obesity. The number has not increased since 2002.The diagnosis
0:43:40 > 0:43:45of diabetes has doubled over the last 20 years.There are children
0:43:45 > 0:43:52under the age of ten...Children under the age of ten, you walk along
0:43:52 > 0:43:57the streets, any high street, you can see three, four-year-olds who
0:43:57 > 0:44:03are clinically obese, what would you do about it?We are trying to say
0:44:03 > 0:44:08there is a certain look which is fit and healthy and actually other
0:44:08 > 0:44:12people, would put them on trial for the way they look, and that to me is
0:44:12 > 0:44:18ethically compromised. Most of... A lot of the most physically looking
0:44:18 > 0:44:21healthy specimens which I know has friends have had serious mental
0:44:21 > 0:44:26health issues, the correlation between health and the way your body
0:44:26 > 0:44:31looks... It connects even to the question, I do not want to defend
0:44:31 > 0:44:36Donald Trump, but some of the body shaping associated with Donald Trump
0:44:36 > 0:44:42has been abhorrent -- body shaming. People who look a certain weight,
0:44:42 > 0:44:49calling them somehow disease. We need to get out of the medicalise
0:44:49 > 0:44:54language...Sarah? I completely agree that it is not supposed to be
0:44:54 > 0:44:58about how people look.It is problematic to say we need to move
0:44:58 > 0:45:01away from medicalise language because the issue is not about how
0:45:01 > 0:45:06people look, it is about health. We know that being overweight or obese,
0:45:06 > 0:45:11the longer it goes on, the more it is associated with disease outcomes
0:45:11 > 0:45:15like cancer, heart disease, diabetes. While it is true to say
0:45:15 > 0:45:19that in the recent past we have not seen rates of overweight and obesity
0:45:19 > 0:45:24going up, they do not seem to be going down either, more than six in
0:45:24 > 0:45:28ten UK adults are overweight or obese, three in ten children are, we
0:45:28 > 0:45:35do need to do something.What do we need to do?
0:45:35 > 0:45:40Some people say it is about eating takeaways and about banning junk
0:45:40 > 0:45:46food. Somewhat boring Lake Manyara is in the middle for the people have
0:45:46 > 0:45:51responsibility for what at the end of the day they put on their trays.
0:45:51 > 0:45:59You would banning advertising on television?What Cancer Research UK
0:45:59 > 0:46:05would like to see is an extension to the current laws we have. This
0:46:05 > 0:46:08marketing is bad for children and we have banned it during kids TV. Kids
0:46:08 > 0:46:16don't just watch that, they spend times their family. It would make
0:46:16 > 0:46:23sense to extend regulations that we have put into place to do.They
0:46:23 > 0:46:27sponsor some of the great sporting events. There are huge problems.
0:46:27 > 0:46:34Let's go through. Would you like to say?
0:46:34 > 0:46:39say?Going on from the human level, when you look at it on the ground,
0:46:39 > 0:46:44people are not that motivated today. I was thinking of a solution to it.
0:46:44 > 0:46:49If people could all come together and encourage one another to lose
0:46:49 > 0:46:53weight and so on, you don't know what goes on in their day-to-day
0:46:53 > 0:46:59lives. You might -- they might have something happen to them which makes
0:46:59 > 0:47:05them depressed. Once they lose well and gain weight and so on, only
0:47:05 > 0:47:10together with everyone involved that we can in Courage one another and to
0:47:10 > 0:47:16lift ourselves back up again.-- encourage. It starts with education.
0:47:16 > 0:47:20There is not just one solution. Education from children, up through
0:47:20 > 0:47:26to adult food. Obesity is on the rise and it is preventable, I think.
0:47:26 > 0:47:31It does not matter what you look like, it is about health and fitness
0:47:31 > 0:47:39and we are living more extension we lifestyles. There is a lot of fat
0:47:39 > 0:47:42shaming out there but we are not talking about that. You do see
0:47:42 > 0:47:46people on the high street with children and their parents and they
0:47:46 > 0:47:51do follow the example of parents. I am a parent now and I am a good
0:47:51 > 0:47:57example, hopefully, to my child not to be fatty food. It is not about
0:47:57 > 0:48:01having takeaways seven days a week. It is about moderation. If you
0:48:01 > 0:48:06wanted about by the weekend then have it as long as there is a
0:48:06 > 0:48:12calorie deficit. On the flip side have be careful of being too
0:48:12 > 0:48:16educational to the fact they possess over calories and numbers you have
0:48:16 > 0:48:24to enjoy food for food because it is about enjoyment as well.The
0:48:24 > 0:48:27question is, is obesity a matter of personal responsibility question in
0:48:27 > 0:48:37its most basic form, it is. We live in an obesogenic environment.What
0:48:37 > 0:48:44does that mean?Without proper choice? When you look at takeaways
0:48:44 > 0:48:48and chicken shops, how often does a supermarket have a buy one get one
0:48:48 > 0:48:52free offer on apples, compared with ready meals which are high in salts
0:48:52 > 0:48:58and facts and that kind of thing? On a personal level we do all have a
0:48:58 > 0:49:02responsibility. I am an example of that. I had gym membership I was
0:49:02 > 0:49:06using. I went to the gym one day nearly two years ago and stood on
0:49:06 > 0:49:15the scales and saw that my weight in stones and lbs, rather than in
0:49:15 > 0:49:19kilograms which meant nothing to me at the time, and I saw I was 17
0:49:19 > 0:49:23stone. I said to myself that is going to stop.Never the other would
0:49:23 > 0:49:28have voted because they have their headphones on.I saw a programme
0:49:28 > 0:49:31advertised on my local newspaper website for the two days later I
0:49:31 > 0:49:39joined that. A programme called fact that book, I now coach in Somerset.
0:49:39 > 0:49:48We promote an all-round approach.-- football. What was the Association
0:49:48 > 0:49:53of willpower like?You're lucky if you can afford to join a gym.So
0:49:53 > 0:49:58many people cannot do that. Exactly. Now I do not have gym membership
0:49:58 > 0:50:02because I go out running and that is free. From the willpower point of
0:50:02 > 0:50:11view, it was, to me, it was taking that responsibility. It was looking
0:50:11 > 0:50:16at... I don't promote any particular kind of diet or anything like that.
0:50:16 > 0:50:22What I say to the guys in my league and we have leaks all around the
0:50:22 > 0:50:26country, they need to make sustainable life changes.You tell
0:50:26 > 0:50:32that to somebody who's pleasure in life is a cigarette. You need to
0:50:32 > 0:50:40make a sustainable life change that is the difficult thing, isn't it?
0:50:40 > 0:50:48One problem that play, it is like, I went online the other day just
0:50:48 > 0:50:55before I wrote a piece for the Guardian and I do it a theoretical
0:50:55 > 0:51:01shop for a family of four and I did it over a period of 14 evenings. My
0:51:01 > 0:51:06mission was to feed his family of four for 14 evenings for the
0:51:06 > 0:51:11cheapest I possibly could. After going through all of the major
0:51:11 > 0:51:15supermarkets, including a rather well-known frozen food retailer, 75
0:51:15 > 0:51:22chicken nuggets in batter £3. One chicken breast to pounds 25p. A
0:51:22 > 0:51:31cabbage 60p. Eight kilo of frying chips, 79p. When parents can all
0:51:31 > 0:51:36went anyone, especially when you take single middle-aged men are a
0:51:36 > 0:51:39perfect demographic because you find many of them are living in one room
0:51:39 > 0:51:48in shared houses with no cooking facilities. How can it be a personal
0:51:48 > 0:51:53responsibility?What to do about the 79p bag of chips?I would make the
0:51:53 > 0:51:57bad stuff more expensive and the good stuff cheaper.How much would
0:51:57 > 0:52:04it be in your world?Still 79p because that is all I can afford.If
0:52:04 > 0:52:09I can come back, and I will come back to you in a minute because you
0:52:09 > 0:52:17are Health Minister for a while. We mentioned kebabs, on a Friday night,
0:52:17 > 0:52:20after you have seen Scotland losing the rugby and you're on your way
0:52:20 > 0:52:25home, at the back. The nice thing occasionally. Would you let yourself
0:52:25 > 0:52:30have occasional treats like fish and chips?Definitely. I was out for a
0:52:30 > 0:52:34curry last night. What I have done through sustainable life changes I
0:52:34 > 0:52:38have made is I have been able to reduce my calorie intake throughout
0:52:38 > 0:52:44the week to earn the curry, as such. Exactly. I am one of those who
0:52:44 > 0:52:52advocates activity. If you
0:52:54 > 0:52:55advocates activity. If you want this, the activity symbol would say
0:52:55 > 0:53:05you would need to burn off this amount. You would be surprised. 350
0:53:05 > 0:53:09calories in a sandwich or whatever. If you put next to it you need to
0:53:09 > 0:53:15run a mile to burn it off, they would probably go for something
0:53:15 > 0:53:19without mayonnaise, for example.As a doctor, what do you think would
0:53:19 > 0:53:23happen people burnt off 2000 calories a day? You would burn off
0:53:23 > 0:53:31hundreds of calories in your sleep. Nobody burns 3000 calories in a day.
0:53:31 > 0:53:34-- 2000. A normal sedentary lifestyle you would burn 2000
0:53:34 > 0:53:45calories.The most important single need now is actually sedentary life.
0:53:45 > 0:53:49You don't have to go for a run. If you tell people they need to burn up
0:53:49 > 0:53:53every calorie they consumed by running they would die of starvation
0:53:53 > 0:54:01in a week. Also with the world of work and time, there is a huge issue
0:54:01 > 0:54:05about lifestyle and demands of work in terms of ability to focus on
0:54:05 > 0:54:09these choices.If we don't address that we will continue to have this
0:54:09 > 0:54:14problem.That is what people should care about. It is an aesthetic
0:54:14 > 0:54:20thing. We not shaming people, it is about your health and medical eyes
0:54:20 > 0:54:24wave making those judgments. I don't like the you look for your fact
0:54:24 > 0:54:29body. I am concerned about your health. You do not care about that.
0:54:29 > 0:54:36You have no idea what is going in that person's body. You do not like
0:54:36 > 0:54:42it because they are fat.Without that shaming badly, I fully agree
0:54:42 > 0:54:46with you. At that particular time I was on water retention tablets are
0:54:46 > 0:54:50my heart was really bad. I got out of hospital for pneumonia is getting
0:54:50 > 0:54:53infection after infection after infection and I ballooned. When I
0:54:53 > 0:55:02tried to speak, sensibly, about that this is food poverty can this is
0:55:02 > 0:55:05what is happening this is the situation people are living in,
0:55:05 > 0:55:08there are people living in single rooms with one microwave, how are
0:55:08 > 0:55:14they going to have billions of vegetables? What I got was, you are
0:55:14 > 0:55:18fat, you obviously don't go without food. And this is the narrative that
0:55:18 > 0:55:25people are throwing back.Philip Dunne, does the Government need to
0:55:25 > 0:55:30go further?This is what I was going to touch on. There is a lot of talk
0:55:30 > 0:55:33today in this very interesting debate about education and
0:55:33 > 0:55:37responsibility. I think education, the Government does have a role
0:55:37 > 0:55:42buying Courage in, as Duncan Selbie in your introduction has done last
0:55:42 > 0:55:48week, publication of calorific content in stuff that people buy. --
0:55:48 > 0:55:52encouraging. It might not answer everything but I think the activity
0:55:52 > 0:55:56register is quite good idea to give that information to people as well.
0:55:56 > 0:56:06There is an educational aspect the Government has a role to play in and
0:56:06 > 0:56:07the other is in responsibility. We have introduced corporate
0:56:07 > 0:56:10responsibility to the food chain through requesting reduction in salt
0:56:10 > 0:56:13on a voluntary basis which has been very successful in bringing down
0:56:13 > 0:56:17salt content by 20%. We are doing the same with sugar content by
0:56:17 > 0:56:22requesting reduction was sugar content and with introducing a levy
0:56:22 > 0:56:25on soft drinks. Maybe more can be done in that area. The point that
0:56:25 > 0:56:31was made by the Lady of their about the wedding advertising jarring
0:56:31 > 0:56:35children's slots, some of these price promotions encouraging people
0:56:35 > 0:56:39to meet more than a treat and routinely, there is potentially a
0:56:39 > 0:56:44role for trying to do what we have done with tobacco for you mentioned
0:56:44 > 0:56:48the advertising contribution made by food manufacturers. Formula 1 is to
0:56:48 > 0:56:52be almost entirely financed by tobacco advertisers. We banned it
0:56:52 > 0:56:56and make no difference. Television companies pay for most of Formula 1
0:56:56 > 0:57:03these days.Chris... The question is, is obesity personal
0:57:03 > 0:57:07responsibility? If it is, there is no need for government action. We
0:57:07 > 0:57:12have not got into that question. I think it is of the US that obesity
0:57:12 > 0:57:18is not a personal thing. -- it is obvious that obesity is not a
0:57:18 > 0:57:21personal thing goes that we have someone who has lost weight and
0:57:21 > 0:57:26someone who is overweight and happy being so. There is no need for
0:57:26 > 0:57:30government action. People are obese for an obvious reason, they are not
0:57:30 > 0:57:38doing enough exercise, and they are eating too much food. It is
0:57:38 > 0:57:42perfectly feasible to make a trade off. I don't want to go to the gym
0:57:42 > 0:57:45and I want to eat tasty food and I don't appreciate the Government
0:57:45 > 0:57:56taxing and reformulating soft drinks. It will not be possible to
0:57:56 > 0:57:59buy proper Ribena shortly. There are already diet drinks for those who
0:57:59 > 0:58:04want them.We have got to leave it there but I think Ribena is a very
0:58:04 > 0:58:10good idea for another debate on The Big Questions. As always with those
0:58:10 > 0:58:12debates will continue online and on twitter.
0:58:12 > 0:58:19Next week, we're in Brighton, so do join us then.
0:58:19 > 0:58:24Enjoy your little pleasure throughout the day. Goodbye from
0:58:24 > 0:58:26Newport and have a really wonderful Mothering Sunday.