:00:23. > :00:27.Good morning, welcome to the last edition of The Big Questions in
:00:27. > :00:30.this series. I'm Nicky Campbell. Next week, Ken Clarke's sentencing
:00:30. > :00:32.paper will finally be published. It's unlikely to be warmly received
:00:32. > :00:37.by all sides of this coalition government.
:00:37. > :00:40.Our first Big Question: Are we too soft on criminals?
:00:40. > :00:45.This father says his son could still be alive if his killer had
:00:45. > :00:48.been imprisoned for previous crimes. And, a UN report shows a tripling
:00:48. > :00:54.of abject poverty in Gaza since Israel imposed its blockade five
:00:54. > :00:57.years ago this week, Our next Big Question: Is it time to free
:00:57. > :01:01.Palestine? This Palestinian says conditions in
:01:01. > :01:04.Gaza are now unbearable, and will only be alleviated under a freed
:01:04. > :01:08.state. We're live from Hutchesons Grammar
:01:08. > :01:12.School in Glasgow, with a lively Scottish audience.
:01:12. > :01:14.And sitting on high we have: The Mail on Sunday columnist, Peter
:01:14. > :01:17.Hitchens. Secretary to the Church and Society
:01:17. > :01:20.Committee of the Church of Scotland, the Reverend Ewan Aitken.
:01:20. > :01:30.Columnist and Independent Member of the Scottish Parliament for the
:01:30. > :01:31.
:01:31. > :01:34.Lothians, Margo MacDonald. New guidelines on sentences for
:01:34. > :01:37.assault announced this week were denounced by Tory backbenchers as
:01:37. > :01:43.the work of "the liberal-minded judicial elite", who are
:01:43. > :01:46."completely out of touch with public opinion". What will they
:01:46. > :01:49.make of Ken Clarke's plans to save money with more community service
:01:49. > :01:59.orders, and fewer short term prison sentences? Are we too soft on
:01:59. > :01:59.
:02:00. > :02:03.criminals? It is a debate happening all over the UK. Peter Hitchens, if
:02:03. > :02:07.you were in charge, what should prisons before?
:02:07. > :02:12.They should be to shock the people who are sent to them and frighten
:02:12. > :02:16.the people thinking of committing crimes into not committing them.
:02:17. > :02:22.People should encounter them much earlier in their criminal careers.
:02:22. > :02:28.Now you can commit as many as 15 crimes and still not be sent to
:02:28. > :02:32.prison. It is still harder to get into prison than University! People
:02:32. > :02:37.have to try hard for criminals to be sent there. They are often
:02:37. > :02:41.turned out very quickly, rehabilitation is a myth. The only
:02:41. > :02:46.serious purpose of prison was punishment and that has been
:02:46. > :02:53.abandoned. As a result, prison as an expense is not designed to deter
:02:53. > :02:58.those sent there, or the people who think it might be worthwhile
:02:58. > :03:03.committing crime, and 30 years ago would have thought they wouldn't do
:03:03. > :03:09.that, now reckon the rest is worthwhile. Rehabilitation is a
:03:09. > :03:16.myth? It is a rather totalitarian idea, to change somebody's
:03:16. > :03:21.character. It is a Christian idea. It is not a change of character, we
:03:21. > :03:25.are talking about people who have, for many reasons, been badly
:03:25. > :03:31.brought up, they have seen the police and withdrawn from the
:03:31. > :03:36.streets, misbehaved and nothing happens to them, they get Committee
:03:36. > :03:41.service which has no effect. They commit further crimes And Nothing
:03:41. > :03:47.continues to happen, their fines are not collected. They learn not
:03:47. > :03:50.to take the criminal-justice system seriously. The first time you meet
:03:50. > :03:58.the criminal justice system you should realise it is serious. With
:03:58. > :04:03.hours, you can meet it 20 times and know it is not serious. Peter
:04:03. > :04:09.misses the point. You can have an authoritarian father model of the
:04:09. > :04:15.system which is where you can beat your system -- children into
:04:15. > :04:19.submission. All the paternal model where the task is to make sure you
:04:19. > :04:26.find the full potential of the individual. It is hard when people
:04:26. > :04:31.do awful things. If the way we approach folk, particularly those
:04:32. > :04:37.who do bad things, if we make them feel worse, we will never change
:04:37. > :04:44.them. The fundamental task of the justice system must be to bring
:04:44. > :04:48.about change. That his own -- that is the only way. You can certainly
:04:48. > :04:53.changed people but not by changing their character. You can teach them
:04:53. > :05:02.if they do certain things which they know to be wrong, they will be
:05:02. > :05:08.punished. That is instilling fear in them. If there is anyone in this
:05:08. > :05:18.room who has never been motivated not to do something I fear, or who
:05:18. > :05:20.
:05:20. > :05:25.claims they haven't, they are lying. You were in prison for seven months,
:05:25. > :05:31.sentenced to 15. Possession of speed. Your father was a prison
:05:31. > :05:36.officer. You feel you were made an example of. If it had been harsher,
:05:36. > :05:46.is there an argument you and others would have said, that is scary, I
:05:46. > :05:46.
:05:46. > :05:56.do not want to go back? Scary for myself. But, that was 13 years ago.
:05:56. > :06:00.
:06:00. > :06:10.It is not like we one per -- Willy Wonka prisons. They are afraid of
:06:10. > :06:12.
:06:12. > :06:17.hurting people's civil rights. Computers. Food. Take away their
:06:17. > :06:21.liberty and they have lost their family. And they have lost their
:06:21. > :06:27.reputation. And they have probably lost the chance of the Korea they
:06:27. > :06:35.wanted. Just by taking away their liberty, you are punishing them. I
:06:35. > :06:41.am sorry they have given up thumbscrews! Don't be silly. This
:06:41. > :06:48.isn't a matter of torture, but about undergoing an austere
:06:48. > :06:53.punitive experience in a civilised prison system. Be sensible. I am
:06:53. > :06:58.being sensible. I think he is being altogether too broad-brush in his
:06:58. > :07:03.approach. Not everyone responds in the same way to a harsh regime.
:07:03. > :07:07.Some people would, they might be frightened out of their lives.
:07:07. > :07:15.Others would become more violent in response. I don't think there is
:07:15. > :07:21.any evidence of that. When criminals fall out among themselves,
:07:21. > :07:25.they instil fear in each other. People commit crime because they
:07:25. > :07:35.decide to do it. They decide to rob their fellow creatures and to be
:07:35. > :07:35.
:07:35. > :07:40.violent. 70% of the 16-25-year-old men in jail have some form of
:07:40. > :07:44.dyslexia or reading issue and have struggled in the education system.
:07:44. > :07:48.The choices they have and the capacity to make those choices
:07:48. > :07:56.Barbara is limited. We have to understand if we are to sort out
:07:56. > :08:03.the justice system, we have to start in those aged below three.
:08:03. > :08:11.That is not an excuse to commit crime. Other figures, 80% of women
:08:11. > :08:16.in prison have mental health problems. 50% have been abused. The
:08:16. > :08:24.cost of reoffending for England and Wales, the reoffending rates are
:08:24. > :08:28.horrific. You have to get in early and dealing with these things.
:08:29. > :08:38.don't send sick women to prison. Will we ever have enough money to
:08:39. > :08:40.
:08:40. > :08:44.deal with this? You're wet -- what is the way ahead? Before been Chief
:08:44. > :08:50.Inspector of Prisons, I was in the SAS. I thought like Peter then.
:08:50. > :08:54.Having seen the reality of prison over eight years, I began to
:08:54. > :08:58.realise prison isn't just about deterrence or punishment, its main
:08:58. > :09:06.purpose must be, because it is so expensive, is to prevent future
:09:06. > :09:11.victims of crime. To kick the public's saved. What isn't
:09:11. > :09:15.recognised his sentences are getting much longer, far more life
:09:15. > :09:19.sentences. I don't have any difficulty with that, that includes
:09:19. > :09:29.women. At the other end of the scale, we are extremely soft on
:09:29. > :09:30.
:09:30. > :09:35.potential criminals, mixing -- and I would also a Grier the plight of
:09:35. > :09:39.women in Scotland is a disgrace. There are petty offenders in jail
:09:39. > :09:46.because no one else can think what to do with them, a terrible
:09:46. > :09:50.situation. What about those short sentences? Are you talking about
:09:50. > :09:58.community punishment orders? If you are going to have short sentences,
:09:58. > :10:06.you need more prison officers, you need role models. Very well trained.
:10:06. > :10:11.We do not have that. As a country, we cannot afford it. The cheaper
:10:11. > :10:17.option, community punishments, are a bit weak. We can afford it if we
:10:17. > :10:22.want to come and we just need to stop subsidising the nuclear bomb,
:10:22. > :10:28.to stop spending money on those things. It is not just about waste
:10:28. > :10:32.of money but waste of lives. would you make the community
:10:32. > :10:37.punishment orders harsher? I have no difficulty, one of the problems
:10:37. > :10:43.with prison is everything goes on behind closed doors, most people
:10:43. > :10:50.have no idea. Including yourself, Peter. On the contrary, I have
:10:50. > :10:54.visited many prisons in this country and elsewhere. I accept
:10:54. > :11:01.that, but so have I. They are physically warehouses where people
:11:01. > :11:05.are kept until we let them out. make it tougher at the same time?
:11:05. > :11:10.At the moment they are unpleasant in the wrong way. They are largely
:11:10. > :11:16.run by the inmates and not the authorities. The nor do they have
:11:16. > :11:20.any purpose other than incarceration. The prisoner
:11:20. > :11:26.Doherty's Fry and the prisons. What are you saying about community
:11:26. > :11:33.punishment? It is not visible enough. Prison is totally invisible.
:11:33. > :11:38.If you are going to switch to the cheaper option, they need to be
:11:38. > :11:43.tougher and more visible. I have no problem with those doing community
:11:43. > :11:48.punishments to be visible, if necessary, wearing a high-
:11:48. > :11:52.visibility jacket so we all know who they are. The thing that has
:11:52. > :11:58.changed me when I was in the military, was going through
:11:58. > :12:04.humiliation. Humiliation? Shame prevented me after a while from
:12:04. > :12:13.committing some of the offences I otherwise would have done. What you
:12:13. > :12:18.think about that, spotting those? There is no point putting people in
:12:18. > :12:24.prison if we are not addressing the reasons why people are offending in
:12:24. > :12:28.the first place. What about visibility, Committee punishment?
:12:28. > :12:33.Not if it doesn't make a difference to why people are committing
:12:33. > :12:38.offences. If they have mental health issues. If they have lost
:12:38. > :12:46.contact with social support to keep them out of prison. You are put in
:12:46. > :12:53.them in a worse position. But they would be in contact with their
:12:53. > :12:57.families, just with high-visibility jackets. Shame, Clyde said.
:12:57. > :13:01.failed to address why they are committing crimes. People commit
:13:01. > :13:07.crimes because they are selfish and think they can get away with it.
:13:07. > :13:11.There is a huge industry which makes excuses for these people. It
:13:11. > :13:14.is subsidised by the state. They are actually wrong, people commit
:13:14. > :13:20.crime because they decide they can get away with it and they are
:13:20. > :13:29.selfish. They will not be stopped by people making excuses for them.
:13:29. > :13:31.They usually live a long way away from them. I asked this in
:13:31. > :13:37.seriousness, Peter has said he has visited prisons in many countries,
:13:37. > :13:43.does anybody have a good Template, a better way of treating people who
:13:43. > :13:48.offend against society? We used to in this country before the prisons
:13:48. > :13:57.were liberalised. I'm talking about now. Nobody has a good prison
:13:57. > :14:00.I would not go for the American model, for instance. You speak
:14:00. > :14:08.about harsh regimes, people talk about Bangkok, it is very
:14:08. > :14:12.unpleasant. It is squalid. How far would you go? You need to look at
:14:12. > :14:16.what we did until the Liberal Revolution in the 60s. People went
:14:16. > :14:21.to prison, they did not have telephones, there were no drugs,
:14:21. > :14:27.prison officers were in charge, they worked hard. The circumstances
:14:27. > :14:32.of their live... Slopping out? against that, it is humiliating.
:14:32. > :14:35.Prisons should be clean but austere, the food should be basic, there
:14:35. > :14:42.should be a lot of work but no comfort. You should come back not
:14:42. > :14:46.wanting to go back in. Not cruelty, but austerity. And education.
:14:46. > :14:50.of the things we have not spoken about his why so many people are in
:14:50. > :14:54.prison in Scotland, I can only speak for Scotland. One of the
:14:54. > :14:59.reasons the prisons, especially the women's prisons, R full, is because
:14:59. > :15:04.the drug laws do not work. If we fix the drug laws... Everybody has
:15:04. > :15:07.to admit they are not working. About 95% of people are in prison
:15:07. > :15:13.are through drugs. When I have a problem I go back to the beginning,
:15:13. > :15:18.the beginning his heroine. When we saw buzz out we will clear the
:15:18. > :15:22.prisons out. It is people who are awfully bad, need to be chained to
:15:22. > :15:26.a sink and punched in the eye, according to you. We need to start
:15:26. > :15:30.talking about first principles of what prisons are meant to do, they
:15:30. > :15:33.are meant to be a deterrent and there must be sanctions if you are
:15:33. > :15:37.considering a crime, they are mentally punishment would also
:15:37. > :15:42.offer an opportunity for rehabilitation so it is not just a
:15:42. > :15:48.conveyor belt. Drugs is a huge issue, particularly in Scotland,
:15:48. > :15:51.there are no drug-free jails in Scotland. We don't do anywhere near
:15:51. > :15:58.enough to get people, who lie in a captive environment would support
:15:58. > :16:02.services, of drugs in prison -- who are in a captive environment with
:16:02. > :16:07.the support services. One prison officer said to me there was a
:16:07. > :16:13.massive issue for the passive smoking for prison officers of
:16:13. > :16:18.cannabis. How are these drugs getting in? Far more needs to be
:16:18. > :16:23.done. Maybe Clive can tell me about this, is it only two jails in
:16:23. > :16:28.Scotland with drug-free wings? The rest of them don't? We don't screen
:16:28. > :16:32.people going in, we don't have plexiglass, we don't check prison
:16:32. > :16:36.officers - and there are many good ones but there are a couple of bad
:16:36. > :16:41.eggs taking drugs in. Inside and outside prisons we do not enforce
:16:41. > :16:45.the laws against drug possession. In England the majority of cases of
:16:45. > :16:49.cannabis possession which the police bother with are dealt with
:16:49. > :16:52.by a warning which involved no criminal record or proceedings.
:16:52. > :16:58.Those are the ones the police bother with, many of them don't
:16:58. > :17:03.bother. You would criminalise a lot of young people? If cannabis is an
:17:03. > :17:07.illegal drug, if you break the law you criminalise yourself. You don't
:17:07. > :17:11.criminalise a burglar by prosecuting him for burglary, you
:17:11. > :17:15.criminalise a drug possessor... some point you stop knocking your
:17:15. > :17:20.head against a brick wall when it is obvious to you you are alive and
:17:20. > :17:23.knocking the wall down nor making your head feel better. -- you are
:17:23. > :17:28.neither knocking the wall down nor making your head feel better. We
:17:28. > :17:36.have had the same, I think, stupid drugs laws in this country for 30
:17:36. > :17:41.years. It is worse now than it was since the drugs Forum in 1986, I
:17:41. > :17:44.think it was. We need to look at which drugs will be criminalised,
:17:44. > :17:49.because I would criminalise the ones which are being made very
:17:49. > :17:53.quickly, we don't know what is in them and there is no quality
:17:53. > :17:59.control, but I would decriminalise cannabis, I would have heroin
:17:59. > :18:05.supplied through the medical... Yes! Cannabis was decriminalised
:18:05. > :18:10.in 1971, there is no serious attempt to prosecute possession.
:18:10. > :18:15.need to get back to prisons. I think it is important we talk about
:18:15. > :18:19.victims. John, your son Damian, what happened to him? Listening to
:18:19. > :18:25.what has been said today reminds me of many, many conversations we have
:18:25. > :18:31.had with various companies of people, various parties, the same
:18:31. > :18:37.as going into get a full vote on it. Everyone talks about what the
:18:37. > :18:43.person who has committed the crime should be getting. Their civil
:18:43. > :18:47.rights and civil liberties. It is an absolute damned disgrace when
:18:47. > :18:51.the 8th 9th blow went into my son when he was lying in the ground,
:18:51. > :19:01.his civil rights and civil liberties stop than -- when the 8th
:19:01. > :19:07.knife blow. Yet we continually pander to the convicted persons in
:19:07. > :19:13.jail. He had been in trouble before, it is important we say that.
:19:13. > :19:18.person who did it? He was important -- in trouble before. What had he
:19:18. > :19:23.done before? Two cases of disfigurement against him and two
:19:23. > :19:30.possessions of knives. What sentence did he get? They had not
:19:30. > :19:32.gone to court, that was over a year. In December 2006 he stabbed a man
:19:32. > :19:41.in the neck and disfigured him, in Margie disfigured another man with
:19:41. > :19:45.a bottle, 2007. In July 2007, he murdered my son. He was on other
:19:45. > :19:50.charges still to come to court about time. I am listening here to
:19:50. > :19:55.professional people talking about what prisoner should be getting.
:19:55. > :20:04.They should be getting a harder time. They done what they don't...
:20:04. > :20:09.APPLAUSE. I didn't encourage him to do it. We come from an area where
:20:09. > :20:16.we thought we lived la safe, clean, quiet area without worrying about
:20:16. > :20:22.these problems -- we thought we lived in a safe, clean, quiet area.
:20:22. > :20:27.All of the MSPs seemed content that where they live, in the nice areas,
:20:27. > :20:32.they are not facing the sharp end we are. My mam had a boyfriend who
:20:32. > :20:35.tried to kill a woman before, then he tried to kill my mam, then he
:20:35. > :20:40.finally murdered her and the police said she was an alcoholic, may be
:20:40. > :20:44.problems happened, they did not even charge him, then he killed
:20:44. > :20:47.another man. I understand a point of the victim. But I feel the
:20:47. > :20:52.Prison Service needs a complete reform, it is not just about the
:20:52. > :20:57.hardened criminals who kill people. The problem we have in the prisons
:20:57. > :21:00.today, I know it is going back to an old subject, is the drugs. The
:21:00. > :21:03.prisons are so full of dealing with drug addicts they are not dealing
:21:03. > :21:10.with the hardened criminals. this man should not have been at
:21:10. > :21:13.liberty? No. Irrespective, it happened, it is too late to do
:21:13. > :21:17.anything about it now. People might look at it in the future, but the
:21:17. > :21:21.main thing we should be looking at as a general public, including
:21:21. > :21:27.professionals, is we should be trying to make sure that the
:21:27. > :21:34.sentences are longer. If someone gets five years they do five years,
:21:34. > :21:40.no early release. APPLAUSE. They should do five years if they
:21:40. > :21:44.get five years? It is in all of our interest to protect the next victim.
:21:44. > :21:49.It is a horrendous situation to be in. Sorry for cutting across, there
:21:49. > :21:52.must be opportunity for the person who has broken the law to get
:21:52. > :21:58.rehabilitation, that is in short supply from what you can hear from
:21:58. > :22:02.the stage. Natalie? It is extremely important, but most people going
:22:02. > :22:06.into prison are there for non- violent, non-sexual fish --
:22:06. > :22:11.offences. We spoke to victims of non-violent offences about this,
:22:11. > :22:17.they wanted something to address the issues, I have a stronger
:22:17. > :22:21.community penalties or... By a strong enough community penalty for
:22:21. > :22:28.somebody who has shown an inkling of violence is a risk. We are
:22:28. > :22:36.talking about non-violent offenders. It is understandable for people who
:22:36. > :22:39.are the danger to the public to stay in prison. It must be a public
:22:39. > :22:44.sanction on public retribution, there must be a place for
:22:44. > :22:48.individual rehabilitation. I am no fan of the United States... We know
:22:48. > :22:53.that. But we need to take a leaf from them about community
:22:53. > :22:58.sentencing. They do a great job. I was teaching in California or
:22:58. > :23:06.Missouri, you have these were gangs cleaning up streets and parks and
:23:06. > :23:09.so forth, they have a distinctive uniform -- work gangs. It is the
:23:09. > :23:15.humiliation. It as an antidote to prevent people from committing more
:23:15. > :23:19.crimes. If you had been wearing that distinctive uniform? You just
:23:19. > :23:25.get a blue and white shirt and blue trousers, everybody wears that.
:23:25. > :23:27.if it had been public, conspicuous and humiliating? If somebody is
:23:27. > :23:31.therefore addiction or mental health issues and you have them
:23:31. > :23:34.wearing a uniform of embarrassment, you could look at pushing them the
:23:34. > :23:39.other way. Lots of people can't handle prison and take their own
:23:39. > :23:44.lives. Why are we obsessed only about individual rights? We should
:23:44. > :23:47.be concerned about public rights. This gentleman has lost his son.
:23:47. > :23:52.That could have been better dealt with. If we take petty criminals
:23:52. > :23:55.and drug addicts... That are a number of drug agencies and
:23:55. > :23:59.rehabilitation centres in the country prepared to help people
:23:59. > :24:03.with drug issues, it takes them away from the court. These people
:24:03. > :24:08.in for the more serious crimes, like the guy who killed a
:24:08. > :24:13.gentleman's son, he could have been dealt with and not been out to take
:24:14. > :24:17.these things away from the public. I think some of the important
:24:17. > :24:20.things that John has said, there were solutions that he had been
:24:20. > :24:24.what he was talking about, things like ending the automatic early
:24:25. > :24:29.release of prisoners, things, for example, like the presumption of
:24:29. > :24:32.going to jail if you are caught carrying a knife. There are issues
:24:32. > :24:37.about public safety, you are talking about areas where we know
:24:37. > :24:42.there are crime hotspots. Let's get more police officers in, let's make
:24:42. > :24:46.sure we are doing proactive justice policies about the collective
:24:46. > :24:50.protection of society rather than the individual rights of people who
:24:50. > :24:54.have broken that protection. John had some excellent points which are
:24:54. > :24:59.worth coming back to. What you are saying is part and parcel of the
:24:59. > :25:02.way that I would like to see things going. I have a very close
:25:02. > :25:07.relationship with Strathclyde Police in Inverclyde, these
:25:07. > :25:11.officers are out working their socks off, in danger, against
:25:11. > :25:16.people taking drugs, people over drinking, things we have spoken
:25:16. > :25:21.about so far. They get them to the court, I am not trying to make a
:25:21. > :25:25.funny joke or anything, but prisoners go to the bar and before
:25:25. > :25:28.the officers can sign their release sheets they are waving to them in
:25:28. > :25:33.taxis going out of court. They have been let out on bail, told to come
:25:33. > :25:37.back at another period of time. Some guys have had to go to the
:25:37. > :25:40.court, we have been told this from people down there, they have been
:25:40. > :25:44.summoned to the court to find out what charges they were facing on
:25:44. > :25:52.that date, because they have so many behind them they did not know
:25:52. > :25:57.which one they were going up for. We need to give it a chance to
:25:57. > :26:00.work... The this is a UK-wide thing, because of financial pressures,
:26:00. > :26:07.sentencing will now be proportionate to the level of the
:26:07. > :26:12.crime. That is quite difficult to assess sometimes. If somebody shows
:26:12. > :26:16.signs of violence, who knows how dangerous they might be in future?
:26:16. > :26:22.It is entirely subjective, there is an assumption by you can do almost
:26:22. > :26:26.a box-ticking purpose, wife is just not like that. But his and the
:26:26. > :26:32.cheap and not very cheerful option what Peter is saying, making scary
:26:32. > :26:37.and frightening? It doesn't work. What do you mean? It worked when we
:26:37. > :26:45.had it... I think you have very rose-tinted views of what happened
:26:45. > :26:55.in the 1950s. I think you do. need to look... ALL TALK AT ONCE.
:26:55. > :27:02.We had raised the gangs in Glasgow in the 50s. -- razor gangs.
:27:02. > :27:06.legacy for John has won the person who killed his son served his time
:27:06. > :27:10.-- it is when the person who killed his son served his time is that he
:27:10. > :27:15.left there in a situation of mind that he would not do a job -- would
:27:15. > :27:20.not do that again. That would be when we had done our job as a
:27:20. > :27:27.society to pay tribute to John's son. What would have changed his
:27:27. > :27:31.life in prison? A very intensive work... Can we afford it? Can we
:27:31. > :27:36.not afford it? There is never enough money but you have to make
:27:36. > :27:42.choices on priorities. I am hearing, rightly so, our priority is to keep
:27:42. > :27:46.the streets safer. Craig, you work with offenders in a Christian
:27:46. > :27:51.charity. What about giving people focus and religion? It is less
:27:51. > :27:54.about giving them religion, it is treating them in a fair and
:27:54. > :27:59.balanced way. We work with people who come out of prison, they get
:27:59. > :28:04.support, they are not humiliated and put in the luminous jackets and
:28:04. > :28:07.stigmatised, we tried to help them become part of the community again
:28:07. > :28:12.so that families do not feel stigmatised, they can work with
:28:12. > :28:15.each other again and give something back to the community.
:28:15. > :28:23.shouldn't people be stigmatised if they had ruined the lives of their
:28:23. > :28:32.neighbours? We want them to change. Actually, it will change them, it
:28:32. > :28:38.works. It won't. When do you want the punishment to stop? This lady
:28:38. > :28:43.at the back, good morning. I work with a youth project in the
:28:43. > :28:49.community and I think what I am hearing is the punishment is a
:28:49. > :28:52.short-term fixed for -- a short- term fix. We need to mobilise the
:28:52. > :28:58.community to take responsibility for the community, and perhaps look
:28:58. > :29:02.at funding for the voluntary sector who can them kind of partnership
:29:02. > :29:07.prisons and stuff and three some of the funding so that prisoners can
:29:07. > :29:17.actually get some support long-term, and that would obviously have an
:29:17. > :29:20.
:29:20. > :29:26.effect on offending in the future I would like to finish my.. About
:29:26. > :29:31.15 months ago, we were fortunate to be invited to meet the lord
:29:31. > :29:36.advocate and we explained our concerns about how things were
:29:36. > :29:40.going in the Justice Department, the police working, the lack of
:29:40. > :29:44.rehabilitation, the lack of opportunity to redress the
:29:44. > :29:51.situation of somebody who had committed a crime. One of the most
:29:51. > :29:56.important ones we asked about, when we received information, when the
:29:56. > :30:00.child was complete, they said the person who killed my son got 15
:30:00. > :30:08.years, that was the punishment part of his sentence, and he would not
:30:08. > :30:13.be entitled to release until 2022. We thought that was fine. We asked
:30:13. > :30:23.-- we were asked if we would like to join the victims' insurance
:30:23. > :30:24.
:30:24. > :30:29.scheme, we signed up for that. The Scottish Prison organisation wrote
:30:29. > :30:37.back to us. But it said, we must advise you, under Prison Rule No.
:30:37. > :30:42.15, in a best-case scenario, this man could be having home visits and
:30:42. > :30:47.work placements four years before the end of his sentence. That was
:30:47. > :30:51.bad enough. The punishment part was done by a judge, an elected person
:30:51. > :31:01.to office. These people are in their taking those decisions and
:31:01. > :31:06.they are not elected. Put other responsible to? From the letters
:31:06. > :31:11.from the lord advocate Kayleigh -- clearly indicate they have concerns
:31:11. > :31:17.themselves. Thank you for talking about this.
:31:17. > :31:25.We pay tribute to Damian. If you have something to say about that
:31:25. > :31:29.And follow the link to our message board.
:31:29. > :31:32.We're also debating live this morning from Glasgow: Is it time to
:31:32. > :31:37.free Palestine? Tell us what you think about those topics. Or send
:31:37. > :31:40.us any general comments you'd like to make about the programme.
:31:40. > :31:42.In September, the United Nations will vote on whether Palestine
:31:42. > :31:46.should be recognised as an independent state within the
:31:46. > :31:49.borders that existed before the 1967 Six Day War. With the peace
:31:50. > :31:52.talks at an impasse, and conditions within Gaza fast deteriorating, the
:31:52. > :31:58.UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees said this
:31:58. > :32:00.week: "It is hard to understand the the logic of a man-made policy
:32:00. > :32:07.which deliberately impoverishes so many, and condemns hundreds of
:32:07. > :32:17.thousands of potentially productive people to a life of destitution."
:32:17. > :32:19.
:32:19. > :32:29.Is it time to free Palestine? When that flow Taylor was
:32:29. > :32:30.
:32:30. > :32:37.confronted by the Israeli forces, you were on that, Hasan Nowarah.
:32:37. > :32:42.You are going away on their own age, very -- you are going away on an
:32:42. > :32:49.aid convoy in two days. You are not going to stop and to use a
:32:49. > :32:56.Palestine is truly free. What you mean? To sustain itself, where
:32:56. > :33:01.there is no starvation, knows slickness, people can live the same
:33:01. > :33:07.as the British can. What kind of state will it be? An independent
:33:07. > :33:13.Palestinian state. Human rights? With her mass at the forefront,
:33:13. > :33:19.many people worry about human rights. If you were to ask the
:33:19. > :33:23.Palestine people, the world has witnessed the 1996 elections. They
:33:23. > :33:31.have seen the Palestinians say in the elections, a huge majority has
:33:31. > :33:37.voted for Hamas. They came in to serve the Palestinian situation.
:33:37. > :33:44.There is democracy in Palestine. Immediately, the Americans and
:33:44. > :33:48.Israeli occupation did not like this and imposed sanctions. What
:33:48. > :33:54.kind of state should this be? free and democratic state for
:33:54. > :34:02.everyone irrespective of Jew, Christian... One single state for
:34:02. > :34:10.all inhabitants of Palestine, the Holy Land. Guaranteed human rights
:34:10. > :34:19.for every individual. Has the so- called Arab Spring changed the
:34:19. > :34:29.context? Yes, they have design themselves as the only democracy in
:34:29. > :34:32.
:34:32. > :34:36.the Middle East, which is not true. It is a total myth. A one that
:34:36. > :34:43.stage solution which you believe it should be headed towards, what is
:34:43. > :34:49.now called Palestine, what is now Israel, should be one state? May be
:34:49. > :34:54.we mean -- maybe we need an interim solution, to build up confidence.
:34:54. > :34:57.To bring people together. The ultimate target is there should be
:34:57. > :35:07.human rights for all, not on the basis of your religious or cultural
:35:07. > :35:08.
:35:08. > :35:16.background. Sam Westrop, how do you respond to that? It is time to free
:35:16. > :35:22.Palestine, Gaza and the west Bank from the grip of Hamas. I'm
:35:23. > :35:29.surprised you call Hamas democratically elected. 51% of this
:35:29. > :35:36.room it voted to murder the other 49%, that would not make it a
:35:36. > :35:41.Democratic budget met democracy. Hamas froze its political -- throws
:35:41. > :35:46.its political opponents from rooftops. You are calling for one
:35:46. > :35:50.solution. I have many Jewish friends who are very much involved
:35:50. > :35:58.in human rights. Hamas calls for the murder of these people. I ask
:35:58. > :36:06.you, do you support Hamas? You talk about democracy. Let us take the
:36:06. > :36:10.1947 vote which brought Israel into being, the Western Christian
:36:10. > :36:17.nations voting. You talk about democracy. That wasn't a true
:36:17. > :36:20.democracy. Let us go back to the 1947 resolution which said we would
:36:20. > :36:27.have two states and an international zone for Jerusalem.
:36:27. > :36:31.To you, Jerusalem is the eternal capital for a people that control
:36:31. > :36:39.the Holy Land for less than 300 years in recorded history. In the
:36:39. > :36:47.United Nations proposal, it is well accepted, the Arabs rejected and
:36:47. > :36:57.invaded. -- Israel accepted. this not unsustainable, many people
:36:57. > :37:07.see Palestine as a prison state. Whose fault is that? Isa with Hamas,
:37:07. > :37:09.
:37:09. > :37:15.Fatah, murderous corrupt governments. The life expectancy in
:37:15. > :37:20.the Gaza is better than in Glasgow. As for this great myth of this
:37:20. > :37:30.terrible situation, I am not so sure. I do not doubt that it is not
:37:30. > :37:40.a free society. He is talking about a mass killing its own people. I
:37:40. > :37:40.
:37:40. > :37:47.would like to see what about the uranium used by the Israelis, F 16,
:37:47. > :37:51.in 2008, we have seen it aggressive war against the Palestine people
:37:51. > :38:01.but the most corrupted regime in the Middle East, the state of
:38:01. > :38:06.
:38:06. > :38:12.Israel. Raymond, how would you help the people of Gaza? The people of
:38:12. > :38:17.Gaza, the Palestinians have been suffering since 1948 through the
:38:17. > :38:23.Arab world treating them badly, the Palestinian leadership. This is the
:38:23. > :38:26.soft face of the Palestinian plight, always hanging on to justice and
:38:26. > :38:33.democracy and using our own freedoms against us. When you
:38:33. > :38:41.listen to the words this be to themselves, from 1947, the move to
:38:41. > :38:44.a pet bird to find out how to kill Jews. Keeping them in the camps.
:38:44. > :38:50.Arafat, we will make Jews so uncomfortable they won't want to
:38:50. > :38:56.live with an Arab. Today, a bass who does not know what is going on.
:38:56. > :39:04.You are not ready for the state, you are intent on destroying the
:39:04. > :39:12.Jewish nation. The Jews came from today. You have created your own
:39:12. > :39:21.Disneyland of disaster. somebody who is against ghettos,
:39:21. > :39:31.why did you crate them? You created neurone ghetto. Sending suicide
:39:31. > :39:41.
:39:41. > :39:50.bombers in. Raymond, let us listen. We will go to a panel in a minute.
:39:50. > :39:56.You wouldn't be end to do your at if... I cannot do might at its
:39:56. > :40:02.Saudi Arabia, but that is not enough to tell them children can't
:40:02. > :40:09.get to hospitals, and take Israeli the sewage and put it into other
:40:09. > :40:16.people's land. It is rarely is regularly take Palestinian
:40:16. > :40:20.civilians into their own hospitals. One the second. All I have heard
:40:20. > :40:28.you say it is Hamas killing homosexuals. We are not getting
:40:28. > :40:34.anywhere here. I am going to come to the panel now. I was going to
:40:34. > :40:39.say the voice of reason. Then I had a look. Peter Hitchens, is it time
:40:40. > :40:43.for a free Palestine? What you mean by, free? Badenoch think the
:40:43. > :40:48.Palestinian of body has a good record on freedom, it invented the
:40:48. > :40:53.first technique for censoring TV broadcasts, of its own Parliament.
:40:53. > :40:59.It has been extremely repressive, it has used torture. The Christian
:40:59. > :41:05.minority are very badly treated. That is rubbish. It isn't rubbish.
:41:05. > :41:10.I have spoken to Palestinian Arabs in Bethlehem and they have told me
:41:10. > :41:14.this. As Christians they feel extremely badly treated by the
:41:14. > :41:20.Palestinian of parity and abandoned. In many cases they were better
:41:20. > :41:27.under Israeli rule. Looking for Arabs living under free conditions,
:41:27. > :41:31.those in Israel are probably the most free in the Middle East. It
:41:31. > :41:35.eluded -- it is ridiculous to claim for other side they have the
:41:35. > :41:40.monopoly of morality because both sides have done terrible things.
:41:40. > :41:45.The sensible thing is compromise. Half the problem arises because of
:41:45. > :41:49.the desired by politicians outside to find an ideal solution. An Arab
:41:49. > :41:55.Israeli acquaintance said to me the last time I was there in September,
:41:55. > :42:00.as we drove into Ramallah, how I long for the good old days before
:42:00. > :42:05.Peace! In the Times before the world started to try to reach a
:42:06. > :42:10.final settlement of the Palestine Israel question, everyone lived a
:42:10. > :42:16.lot better, on better terms. There are signs of this now because of
:42:16. > :42:25.the absence of the tense for reform. If you go to reminder or Gaza, you
:42:25. > :42:30.will find shopping malls. I had a good beef stroganoff in Gaza. There
:42:30. > :42:33.are pleasant parks on the Gaza Strip with rich people. The United
:42:33. > :42:43.Arab Emirates has done fantastic work building good housing, the
:42:43. > :42:43.
:42:43. > :42:50.kind which should have been put up 40 years ago. I absolutely despair
:42:50. > :42:58.of this. I had a really nice meal in Moscow and in Leningrad when
:42:58. > :43:07.Brezhnev was at his worst. And? What of it? It is true that Arab
:43:07. > :43:10.people were deprived of their land and homes. No matter what has
:43:10. > :43:14.happened in the meantime, and I take what you say about both sides
:43:14. > :43:19.being dreadful to each other, there have been terrible things done by
:43:19. > :43:25.both sides and far too many lies have been wasted, too many families
:43:25. > :43:29.have been broken up. It has to stop at some point. But it won't be any
:43:29. > :43:34.words we speak here, it will be dependent on what is happening in
:43:34. > :43:39.America and American politics. Barack Obama was the first American
:43:39. > :43:45.President to speak out against the maintenance of the artificial state
:43:45. > :43:49.of Israel, whether you have a one state solution eventually all two
:43:49. > :43:59.state. I believe it is artificial. It doesn't have the boundaries that
:43:59. > :44:01.
:44:01. > :44:07.could be agreed between people who Obama spoke out. And what happened?
:44:07. > :44:12.He had to pull back. He had tipple back because the United Nations
:44:12. > :44:20.needed his backing to make sure they took some sort of action -- he
:44:20. > :44:23.had to pull back. Our country's diplomacy is very active. In the
:44:23. > :44:28.European Union we spend enormous amounts, much of it given to
:44:28. > :44:31.Palestinian causes in the area. Our interest in that part of the world
:44:31. > :44:36.is considerable, although responsibility is enormous, because
:44:36. > :44:41.our declaration began the whole thing. As a country we have a very
:44:41. > :44:48.great responsibility. I am just saying, if it means we have an
:44:48. > :44:55.important role. As a writer and expert in such matters, who has
:44:55. > :45:00.most to fear from the Arab spring? Israel or Hamas? It depends on what
:45:00. > :45:05.happens in the end, we don't know what will happen. Let's hear his
:45:05. > :45:15.answer. Can we hear his answer? Palestine does not have depleted
:45:15. > :45:20.uranium, helicopters... ALL TALK AT ONCE. The Palestinian people who
:45:20. > :45:25.have been... I will have to go to the panel again. Excuse me, please,
:45:25. > :45:29.one second. He barely got a sentence out, let him answer.
:45:29. > :45:33.too early to know what will happen with the so-called Arab spring. In
:45:33. > :45:38.places like Egypt, it is very clear that the Muslim Brotherhood is very
:45:38. > :45:42.likely, not, perhaps, in the first election, but by the second... They
:45:42. > :45:49.have tried to get into power for a long time, if they come into power
:45:49. > :45:59.they are linked to the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.
:45:59. > :45:59.
:45:59. > :46:07.The Hamas Charter, the Hezbollah and other constitutions are quite
:46:07. > :46:12.clear - no peace, no negotiations, no compromise. They would drive the
:46:12. > :46:18.Jews out of Israel or Hamas particularly would kill all the
:46:18. > :46:22.Jews. LAUGHTER. Mahmoud Abbas in the last couple of weeks has stated
:46:22. > :46:26.quite clearly that in any future Palestinian state, he says, not for
:46:26. > :46:30.the first time, there will be no Jews whatever, no Jew will be
:46:30. > :46:34.allowed to set foot. That is why the whole idea of the one state
:46:35. > :46:44.solution becomes quite chilling, because in effect they will do what
:46:45. > :46:45.
:46:45. > :46:55.the Nazis tried to do, make the whole of Palestine to free. -- Jew-
:46:55. > :46:57.
:46:57. > :47:03.free. We are not anti-Jewish such. Are your people are ready to do a
:47:03. > :47:07.reverse holocaust on the Jews? Is he telling the truth? ALL TALK AT
:47:07. > :47:12.ONCE. All eyes see his women and children being thrown out of their
:47:12. > :47:21.houses while Jewish people move in and go, I have got another house!
:47:21. > :47:29.APPLAUSE. I need to know. The one line and look up the Hamas Charter.
:47:29. > :47:35.-- go online and look up the Hamas Charter. Is this not true?!
:47:35. > :47:39.Hamas Charter is dedicated to the... Let me ask the question before you
:47:39. > :47:43.give an answer, call me old fashioned. As Palestinian people we
:47:43. > :47:49.are Jewish, we are Muslims, we are Christians. We have Palestinian
:47:49. > :47:52.Jewish living in Nablus as we speak. A have their religion freely, their
:47:52. > :48:02.power stations. What about the destruction of Israel in the
:48:02. > :48:08.
:48:08. > :48:12.charter? None whatsoever. ALL TALK AT ONCE. Hamas has agreed to be a
:48:12. > :48:21.Palestinian dependent state in 1967 and will have a true start ALL TALK
:48:21. > :48:31.AT ONCE. Let me ask Tadgh Hardy, an academic and a man of reason, how
:48:31. > :48:31.
:48:31. > :48:34.do we handle this situation -- let me ask harsh Hardy. The idea that
:48:34. > :48:40.one group of people can annihilate undo a reverse Holocaust is
:48:40. > :48:44.absolutely out. What do you mean? The Jews have a right there but not
:48:44. > :48:51.an exclusive right. The Old Testament is not a title deed to
:48:51. > :48:55.Palestine. The Old Testament is not a title deed. APPLAUSE. They cannot
:48:56. > :49:03.claim exclusive rights to the Holy Land. The Old Testament is not a
:49:03. > :49:08.title deed to Palestine, but we are talking about 5000 years, which of
:49:08. > :49:13.Abraham's sons is entitled to the land? Religion is the problem, it
:49:13. > :49:16.is all your fault. It always is! Many of these conversations come
:49:16. > :49:21.about because people perceive the world through what they believe to
:49:21. > :49:25.be true, we need to help people and pack that. Continuing the meal
:49:25. > :49:30.theme of my colleagues, I was serving meals in a Church of
:49:30. > :49:34.Scotland hotel in Tiberius in 1983 when the accord was announced, and
:49:34. > :49:39.there was a huge sense of talk -- hope because this was an
:49:39. > :49:43.opportunity to actually talk rather than shout or take this bit of
:49:43. > :49:47.history against that bit of history, or to throw religion as weapons. We
:49:47. > :49:52.have lost sight of that. My own view about your original question,
:49:52. > :49:57.do they need to be two separate states, it is probably yes. Not
:49:57. > :50:00.because we want to decide -- define which those states are, but as a
:50:00. > :50:08.family, because the Jews and Palestinians who live there are
:50:08. > :50:14.related because they both come from that area, that family needs a bit
:50:14. > :50:20.of space so it can come back together again and talk as we
:50:20. > :50:24.nearly did... Ultimately, where should we be heading? We need to
:50:24. > :50:28.get will place where either you have a union, perhaps, I hesitate
:50:28. > :50:33.to say, like we have in this country, States part of a bigger
:50:33. > :50:37.union, or we come to the conclusion where they conclude together they
:50:37. > :50:41.can live at one stage. At the present time, that is clearly not
:50:41. > :50:48.possible. Raymond, why will that never be possible, equal rights,
:50:48. > :50:52.living in one state? In 2000 and us that -- 2011, many would agree that
:50:52. > :50:57.a state based on one ethnic identity is unsustainable and
:50:57. > :51:03.unacceptable? I think there is a misunderstanding of what it means
:51:03. > :51:06.to be the Jewish state, and the Bible is the document that owns it.
:51:06. > :51:14.Israel is the place where the nationhood of the Jewish people was
:51:14. > :51:20.born, as much as Scotland is the... Excuse me, may I finish. That is
:51:20. > :51:28.incorrect! May I finish? For 2000 years we were persecuted as a race,
:51:28. > :51:33.or the sudden we are now a religion. Excuse me. ALL TALK AT ONCE. Israel
:51:33. > :51:38.is a legitimate state recognised by the United... It is not. It is an
:51:38. > :51:43.occupation. A recognised by international law. It is an illegal
:51:43. > :51:47.occupation. They keep going on, they throw words like occupation
:51:47. > :51:51.and settlements, the core of the matter is that they wanted to
:51:51. > :51:55.destroy the state of Israel from the very beginning. First they
:51:55. > :52:00.tried to do it with weapons, now that is not working so they are
:52:00. > :52:04.trying to do it politically. It is marvellous machinery. I have been
:52:04. > :52:10.two meetings in Glasgow, I hear how you direct the Western a year what
:52:10. > :52:16.to say and think. I was at a meeting, there was anti-Semitism
:52:16. > :52:25.and Bath Street in Glasgow are talking about the evil doers.
:52:25. > :52:31.use that phrase? -- who used to that phrase? They were all clapping.
:52:31. > :52:36.ALL TALK AT ONCE. I was once called a nasty Protestant but it did not
:52:36. > :52:40.have been here. That is not what we're talking about, we are talking
:52:40. > :52:50.about an illegal occupation, not because somebody once said you were
:52:50. > :52:57.
:52:57. > :53:04.a bad due. How would you guarantee the security? -- a bad Jew. Please
:53:04. > :53:09.be quiet, how would you secured the security of Israel? Would you put
:53:09. > :53:18.Israeli security first before the Palestinian? I am trying to put
:53:18. > :53:26.both sides. Her is the victim here?! Who is the victim here?!
:53:26. > :53:29.for it! ALL TALK AT ONCE. Security is your side of the
:53:29. > :53:33.argument? ALL TALK AT ONCE.
:53:33. > :53:39.Here is an old-fashioned concept, let's see what he has to save.
:53:39. > :53:45.have been talking about the past, it has to be about the future, per
:53:45. > :53:49.-- piece, and the security for both states. I believe in a 2 state
:53:49. > :53:58.solution. The apartheid wall has pushed suicide bombings down for
:53:58. > :54:03.92%. Well, well done for building and apartheid wall! Any 2 state
:54:03. > :54:08.solution has to be secure for both sides. The 67 borders are
:54:08. > :54:12.indefensible, something must be worked out. This is a diplomatic
:54:12. > :54:17.ploy. They are not sitting down with the Israelis and working out
:54:17. > :54:21.how to stop the violence and enter peas and resolution...
:54:21. > :54:29.Palestinians have to accept what people refer to as illegal
:54:29. > :54:32.settlements? Through here is concerned, I am sorry... Who here
:54:32. > :54:36.is concerned, as we ought to be, about the conditioning of the
:54:36. > :54:39.people? The real question is particularly the state of the
:54:39. > :54:44.people who are now the descendants of those expelled from Israel at
:54:44. > :54:49.its foundation in 1948. They have not in any way benefited from more
:54:49. > :54:53.than 60 years of war and conflict. If 63 years. They have not
:54:53. > :54:58.benefited, they are not intended to, they are being used as poster boys
:54:58. > :55:04.by a constant campaign to do legitimises row. If we are really
:55:04. > :55:09.concerned about the condition of the people, trying to leave... Be
:55:09. > :55:15.quiet for a moment, I have heard your case and I am trying... Let's
:55:15. > :55:18.hear him. I shall finish my sentence. I wish to finish my
:55:18. > :55:21.sentence. If you are concerned about how men, women and children
:55:21. > :55:27.can live in a civilised fashion alongside their neighbours, this
:55:27. > :55:33.kind of slow agonising will get you absolutely nowhere and will lead
:55:33. > :55:37.only two more bombs, more wars and terror. Do you really want that or
:55:37. > :55:41.do you want a civilised compromise? If you were shouting earlier. The
:55:41. > :55:46.guy back their washout in a few minutes ago and now he has the
:55:46. > :55:51.microphone. -- the guy back there was shouting a few minutes ago.
:55:51. > :55:56.was wondering what time my lips and my tongue would be free, I had my
:55:56. > :56:00.hand up for minutes at a time. I went to Gaza and eyes or the
:56:00. > :56:05.condition of the people with my own eyes. Honestly, it is not laughable,
:56:05. > :56:09.it is sickening for people to say they throw words like occupation.
:56:09. > :56:14.There are people there who are starving. The whole of Gaza is
:56:14. > :56:17.turned into a charity case by Israel, and you call this justice?
:56:17. > :56:22.There is something fundamentally skewed about the West when they
:56:22. > :56:26.talk about Palestine. You ask about the rights of the oppressor and you
:56:26. > :56:31.want the oppressed are to secure the oppressor's rights? It is
:56:31. > :56:37.madness! It is complete madness. But Palestinians are being asked to
:56:37. > :56:44.live in 8% of their historic land. Israel is a state which was created
:56:44. > :56:48.by theft and murder, by theft and murder. APPLAUSE. And we need to
:56:48. > :56:53.address the original role. What fault was it of the Palestinians
:56:53. > :57:00.that Hitler murdered 6 million Jews? What fault was it of us?
:57:00. > :57:03.is my job now to go to you and get a response. What sport is it of the
:57:03. > :57:10.Palestinians? The leader of the Grand mufti... He said a state
:57:10. > :57:15.created by theft and murder. correct. The Jews who went there
:57:15. > :57:23.bought it from Arab landowners. tiny percentage of land. ALL TALK
:57:23. > :57:29.AT ONCE. At that time, and Mark Twain wrote
:57:29. > :57:37.about it, how desolate the land was, how desolate... You weren't there,
:57:37. > :57:41.he was! Now, when the agricultural Jews came from Russia and went back
:57:41. > :57:45.to their original homeland of the Jewish people, they brought the
:57:45. > :57:49.technology of Western agriculture, they created a bread basket that
:57:49. > :57:53.attracted Arabs from all around to come to that land and they
:57:53. > :57:57.increased the number of Arabs living there. They were welcome to
:57:57. > :58:05.begin with, but there was a faction started to Barbados what the Jews
:58:05. > :58:11.there at all. Even when Israel went in and... Went in after the 66 war,
:58:11. > :58:13.they opened up these camps, they tried to introduce fresh water and
:58:13. > :58:18.electricity but the fundamentalists... We are out of