:00:26. > :00:32.Good morning, welcome back to another series of The Big Questions,
:00:32. > :00:35.live from Warrington. I'm Nicky Campbell. Meryl Streep's portrayal
:00:35. > :00:38.of Mrs Thatcher opened to critical acclaim this week. But the
:00:38. > :00:48.performance of the iron lady herself always received more mixed
:00:48. > :00:49.
:00:49. > :00:51.reviews, both saviour and destroyer. Our first Big Question: Did Mrs
:00:51. > :00:54.Thatcher change Britain for the better? Fighting it out from the
:00:54. > :00:57.red corner, we have Liverpool's former Militant tendency councillor,
:00:57. > :00:59.Derek Hatton. And for the true blues, the former Minister and MP,
:00:59. > :01:02.Edwina Currie. On Thursday, the Commission on Assisted Dying
:01:02. > :01:04.proposed that people who are expected to die within a year from
:01:04. > :01:07.an incurable condition should legally have medical help to end
:01:07. > :01:17.their lives. Our next Big Question: Should the terminally ill have the
:01:17. > :01:19.right to die? But disability campaigner Sir Bert Massie says it
:01:19. > :01:22.is tantamount to legal murder and would threaten vulnerable people.
:01:22. > :01:27.If some prophecies are to be believed, 2012 might turn out to be
:01:27. > :01:30.a very important year. No, we are not going to top the Olympic medal
:01:30. > :01:33.table, it is more probable than that. Some people believe the world
:01:33. > :01:43.will end on December 21st, or possibly, if we're very unlucky, on
:01:43. > :01:48.
:01:48. > :01:51.May 27th. Our next Big Question: Has the time come to repent? Graham
:01:51. > :02:01.Hancock, whose book inspired the Hollywood blockbuster, 2012, is
:02:01. > :02:03.
:02:03. > :02:06.here to tell us what to expect. When Cabinet papers about Mrs
:02:06. > :02:09.Thatcher's government's response to the Toxteth riots in Liverpool were
:02:09. > :02:15.released under the 30-year rule last week, it did not take long for
:02:15. > :02:20.the flames of those old arguments to reignite. Few political figures
:02:20. > :02:30.have aroused such passion - for and against - as Margaret Thatcher. Did
:02:30. > :02:35.Mrs Thatcher change Britain for the better? Absolutely. When she became
:02:35. > :02:42.Prime Minister, the country was on its knees. We had just had a winter
:02:42. > :02:46.of discontent and strikes all over the place. You could not count on
:02:46. > :02:50.anything. She set herself to do something about that. She knew she
:02:50. > :02:55.was going to have a big fight on her hands. She knew she was going
:02:55. > :03:00.to face up to Arthur Scargill and union leaders like that. She knew
:03:00. > :03:05.she could not lose. The future of the country, the future of the
:03:05. > :03:12.economy, depended on her and her resolution. Was her as a moral
:03:12. > :03:17.mission? Yes, I think it was. For me it was about freeing up the
:03:17. > :03:22.economy and giving it an opportunity to flourish. Elaine
:03:22. > :03:28.Jones is desperate to come men. only way you could Uggi that she
:03:28. > :03:35.make the country better for Britain is if you ignore the facts. She set
:03:35. > :03:39.out to destroy the trade unions. She privatise 42 different
:03:39. > :03:45.companies and de regulated everything. She made millions of
:03:45. > :03:49.pounds worth of cuts. She destroyed manufacturing industry. It was
:03:49. > :03:55.about whole areas of the country being allowed to rot with high
:03:55. > :04:00.levels of unemployment. Unemployment levels up to 3.5
:04:00. > :04:04.million. Not only do we get unemployment levels up to 3.5
:04:04. > :04:10.million, the Tories used their friends and the press to try to
:04:10. > :04:18.blame unemployed people for being unemployed in the first place. Hang
:04:18. > :04:23.on a minute! Can we get a response? I was there at the time. I was in
:04:23. > :04:28.the Government at the time. There is no denying there were some costs.
:04:29. > :04:33.If we continued as we were, with huge government subsidies to
:04:33. > :04:39.clapped out old industries, coming from the tax payer, the country was
:04:39. > :04:47.on its knees. They could not continue like that. You say there
:04:47. > :04:53.were costs. Was that a price worth paying? Whatever you do in
:04:53. > :04:58.economics... A lot of people worse rent on the scrapheap. I can only
:04:58. > :05:08.say what coalminers have said. They say, we are digging debt down there.
:05:08. > :05:14.We know which has to come to an end. -- digging debt down now. When she
:05:15. > :05:20.walked into Number 10, she said, where there is despair, I will
:05:20. > :05:27.bring hope. Reality is, where there was hope, she brought despair. It
:05:27. > :05:31.is ironic that we are sitting in Warrington. There were millions and
:05:31. > :05:37.millions of coal mines, steelworkers, people working in the
:05:37. > :05:43.areas who felt hope for the future. All of a sudden it was destroyed.
:05:43. > :05:47.People argued that Britain had to change. Life is like that.
:05:48. > :05:54.Evolution happens. It does not mean it had to change with the
:05:54. > :05:58.desperation she brought. People were destroyed as individuals. We
:05:58. > :06:04.should not talk about her as an individual. We may or may not like
:06:04. > :06:10.her as an individual. We're talking about Thatcherism and what she did
:06:10. > :06:15.in those days. She actually, in the last century, became the most
:06:15. > :06:24.successful peacetime Prime Minister that we know. The reason why she
:06:24. > :06:30.was what she set out to destroy it. You were a self-made millionaire.
:06:30. > :06:36.You sold your company for �40 million. I am a child of Thatcher.
:06:36. > :06:41.I am from this area. When you say, people had hope, they did not.
:06:42. > :06:45.People did not know what to hope for. When you say Thatcher
:06:45. > :06:49.destroyed the manufacturing industry, it was destroyed. What
:06:49. > :06:54.the previous government did was look at the past, look at our
:06:54. > :07:03.imperial ambitions and say, or we want that. What hope did she give
:07:03. > :07:13.to you? Do not underestimate yourself. You would have done it
:07:13. > :07:17.
:07:17. > :07:22.anyway. How do you know that? will come back. Can I just finish?
:07:22. > :07:30.When I was growing up in this area, there was nothing. No one could
:07:30. > :07:35.help us. They know they used to be a huge factory which went in a
:07:35. > :07:42.couple of years. There was nothing for people of. This is before
:07:42. > :07:47.Thatcher came in. On the television, for the first time, when she
:07:47. > :07:54.denationalised industries, I was sitting there as a 16-year-old kip
:07:54. > :08:00.then, thinking, what does that mean? For us, people like us, we
:08:00. > :08:06.did not know these things existed. She was really enabling for you,
:08:06. > :08:12.what she? Buying your own homes, you can argue one way or the other.
:08:12. > :08:16.People had to be responsible and accountable. There are facts to
:08:16. > :08:22.consider. When they privatise all the utilities, look where we are
:08:22. > :08:27.with all the utility companies now. Sky-high bills. The privatisation
:08:27. > :08:33.and selling off of the council houses has meant the social housing
:08:33. > :08:37.stock has plummeted. It led to an increase in homelessness. We are in
:08:37. > :08:42.a situation where there is a housing crisis. The one thing I
:08:42. > :08:46.would say in response to what you said is what Thatcher did, she made
:08:46. > :08:53.the rich richer, she laid the ground for free-market economics
:08:54. > :08:59.that has led to where we are now. The Institute for economic affairs,
:08:59. > :09:07.did this change that she effected on Britain, maybe the world was
:09:07. > :09:13.changing anyway. Do they have to happen? It had to happen in one
:09:13. > :09:22.form or another. Manufacturing is now a much smaller proportion of
:09:22. > :09:26.employment and GDP in virtually every country. Let him finish.
:09:27. > :09:32.actually produce more manufacturing output today than we did 30 years
:09:32. > :09:38.ago. We do it more effectively and more productively. People are no
:09:38. > :09:45.longer stuck in heavy industry type jobs. Who would want to bring back
:09:45. > :09:49.all the miners underground? Who would want to go back to where we
:09:49. > :09:58.had exchange controls and you had to tell the treasure if you were
:09:58. > :10:03.going on holiday? I want to hear from the audience. For me, the main
:10:03. > :10:13.thing about Mrs Thatcher were she saved Britain from becoming part of
:10:13. > :10:14.
:10:14. > :10:19.the sewed it -- Soviet Union. was touch and go. She said Britain
:10:19. > :10:26.from being ruled by extreme left- wing trade unionists who were
:10:26. > :10:32.responsible for destroying this great nation. Let's hear this.
:10:32. > :10:39.big trade unions at the time, led by people by Arthur Scargill and
:10:39. > :10:44.the dockers and so one, they had trained in the Soviet Union. Their
:10:44. > :10:51.objective was to destroy the country. I remember a coalminer
:10:51. > :10:55.same, why did you vote to stay at work during the strike? He said, we
:10:55. > :11:03.hold -- we heard all this about Thatcherism and we do not agree
:11:03. > :11:08.with it. Let me say something before you come in. You said she
:11:08. > :11:15.was not Christian. I think there were fundamental flaws in what
:11:15. > :11:19.Margaret Thatcher did. Moral flaws. We have argument extremes at the
:11:19. > :11:23.moment. Margaret Thatcher did some things that needed to be done to
:11:23. > :11:29.this country. On the other hand she created a culture of selfish
:11:29. > :11:35.individualism which we are reaping the harvest of today. There was a
:11:35. > :11:39.belief that she created the notion that greed is OK and she freed up
:11:39. > :11:44.the city in a way that actually removed all the regulations over
:11:44. > :11:49.the banking industry in the city and that has caused the financial
:11:49. > :11:54.crisis that we are living in today. Subsequent governments acquiesced
:11:54. > :12:03.to that. She created a new environment where that sort of
:12:03. > :12:09.greed... She changed human nature? She moved from a notion of society,
:12:09. > :12:16.community, belonging, mutual responsibility, to an ocean of the
:12:16. > :12:22.individual being paramount at all times - individualism rules. -- a
:12:23. > :12:32.notion. We are hankering back to the post-war era. I am not an
:12:33. > :12:34.
:12:34. > :12:40.expert but I understand the City was very and regulated. We have to
:12:40. > :12:47.look at new Labour and what happened. Everyone was deregulated.
:12:47. > :12:51.It was like a really bad company that was on its knees. Any company
:12:51. > :12:57.that needs changing around, needs Barilli strong leader, I'm not
:12:57. > :13:02.saying the policies of Margaret Thatcher where river --
:13:02. > :13:09.revolutionary, I am not saying what she had was a thrust to say I am
:13:09. > :13:15.going to change theirs. She did not mind who she left behind in the
:13:15. > :13:20.process. She left people in inner cities on outer estates actually
:13:20. > :13:26.outside society, she did not care. There were no regional policies.
:13:26. > :13:36.She left areas like Merseyside and so on. Only people like Michael
:13:36. > :13:37.
:13:37. > :13:42.Heseltine rescue the party. Hang on a minute! We had one of the best
:13:43. > :13:49.regional policies ever. You mentioned Michael Heseltine.
:13:49. > :13:59.houses were not built because she had trees. Most people in Liverpool
:13:59. > :14:03.
:14:03. > :14:12.remember where it is. You wrecked it, Derek! Old warriors, old
:14:12. > :14:16.battles. Lady at the back. How are you? I am fine, thank you. That
:14:16. > :14:22.lady was saying she make the rich richer that she has also made the
:14:22. > :14:28.poor poorer as well. What has Edwina got to say about that?
:14:28. > :14:33.about the right to buy? Was that enabling for people? It is a good
:14:33. > :14:38.opportunity for people to buy their own houses. They did not build
:14:38. > :14:41.houses for people who needed social housing. People should take
:14:41. > :14:47.responsibility when Margaret Thatcher offered all this
:14:47. > :14:51.materialism, a lot of people jumped on the wagon and thought it was
:14:51. > :15:00.enabling. People are so materialistic. Did that appeal to
:15:00. > :15:05.She had to be a responsible Prime Minister and look after everybody
:15:05. > :15:10.in the country, not just those with money. You said earlier that she
:15:10. > :15:17.did some good and some bad. Derek was wriggling with anger when you
:15:17. > :15:20.said that. What did she do that was good? She sorted up major problems
:15:20. > :15:25.with the trade unions. The trade union movement had got out of
:15:25. > :15:31.control and was in many ways controlling major parts of the
:15:31. > :15:36.economy to its detriment. She released some energy around
:15:36. > :15:43.creative new capitalism, if you like. Barbara Castle tried to sort
:15:43. > :15:46.out the unions. The Labour Party had tried and failed. Labour in
:15:46. > :15:50.opposition was very weak in the Thatcher years and the churches
:15:51. > :15:56.ended up as the official opposition in many wares. Robert Runcie was
:15:56. > :16:00.very uncomfortable with a lot of what Thatcher did. Is he right?
:16:00. > :16:06.In response to the attacks on trade union movement. Let's think about
:16:06. > :16:12.what they were fighting for. The miners' union were saying people's
:16:12. > :16:18.jobs and the community should come before profit. In the trade union
:16:18. > :16:24.movement, if there was a dispute in the health service. People were
:16:24. > :16:28.less able to take industrial action. The trade union movement, if you
:16:28. > :16:36.look at social history, the role of the trade union movement is a
:16:36. > :16:42.civilising effect, in lifts people out of poverty. In 1944 1/2 there
:16:42. > :16:47.was 2000 strikes. As a result of that, we got the welfare state, the
:16:47. > :16:52.NHS, which lifted people out of poverty. The trade union movement
:16:52. > :16:55.is positive. One of the interesting things is the way in which the
:16:55. > :17:00.Labour Party has accepted the reforms to trade unions. Ed
:17:00. > :17:04.Miliband was released -- recently asked about three things he thought
:17:04. > :17:09.were Thatcher's legacy. One was council house sales, another was
:17:09. > :17:13.lower tax rates and the third was trade union reform. Without that
:17:13. > :17:17.reform, Britain would have been hobbled. That was a fundamental
:17:17. > :17:23.change I was talking about that Thatcher did. You're right. Tony
:17:23. > :17:31.Blair became as because Thatcher herself. Was Tony Blair son of
:17:31. > :17:38.Thatcher? I believe it was a near repairable change. -- irreparable
:17:38. > :17:43.change. If she was on such a moral mission, why was she such a great
:17:44. > :17:50.friend of General Pinochet? Why was she such a great supporter of the
:17:50. > :17:55.apartheid regime? Why did she night Ceausescu? She was an imperfect
:17:56. > :18:00.human being and a product of her own time. She grew up during the
:18:00. > :18:05.war. She was at university in the dying days of the Second World War.
:18:05. > :18:09.In many ways she never shook off the prejudices she grew up with.
:18:09. > :18:14.She never promoted any women to her cabinet, for example, which now
:18:14. > :18:21.seems bizarre. Janet Young was one. No women from the House of
:18:21. > :18:25.Commons... Not you, sadly! If you put her in that context, you can
:18:25. > :18:30.also see the tremendous courage she required to challenge the
:18:30. > :18:35.prejudices. What did she do for women? What she did for women was
:18:35. > :18:41.made us realise that first of all its brought women into the service
:18:41. > :18:46.industry, where it had never worked before. It got women back into the
:18:46. > :18:52.workforce with her idea of a service society. The very fact that
:18:53. > :19:01.a woman was leading Briton as the Prime Minister made many women and
:19:01. > :19:05.men sit up and think wow. This was a huge watershed moment. Audience?
:19:05. > :19:12.What Thatcher did was attacked the majority of working-class women.
:19:12. > :19:16.Rubbish! If you want role models for women to look up to, looked to
:19:16. > :19:21.the people who fought back, the Women against Pit closures, the
:19:21. > :19:25.women around organisations like women's fight back. They fought for
:19:25. > :19:29.their community. The first woman prime minister. Was that
:19:29. > :19:34.achievement? The first woman prime minister? Can you find it in your
:19:34. > :19:40.heart to say that? What Thatcher did for the vast majority of women
:19:40. > :19:46.was not progressive. Equality will be won... What did you think of
:19:46. > :19:53.her? My problem with Margaret Thatcher was that I thought she
:19:53. > :19:59.removed compassion from politics. After she had gone, the people that
:19:59. > :20:03.came after her then felt they could go to extremes. We are inheriting a
:20:03. > :20:08.legacy from Margaret Thatcher, but it is not positive for but the
:20:08. > :20:12.legacy we've inherited his, as somebody else said, we are all now
:20:12. > :20:18.thinking what is best for us as individuals? She made politics more
:20:18. > :20:24.ruthless. Yes. I don't think it was a particularly good thing to do.
:20:24. > :20:30.She also made the rich extremely rich. The rich got richer last year
:20:30. > :20:35.by �66 billion. Can I get a word in? She's very good! I was saying
:20:35. > :20:39.before we came in that I think with Margaret Thatcher, it will be
:20:39. > :20:44.history that will tell us how could she really was. What is your
:20:44. > :20:49.inkling? I think like Churchill, we will see her in hindsight that she
:20:49. > :20:55.was a very strong... Flawed, that has been brought out come up with
:20:55. > :21:00.problems... Churchill was also gloriously flawed. Bishop Stephen
:21:00. > :21:04.Breyer against what you said. The notion that Churchill, who
:21:04. > :21:09.saved us in many ways and inspired and led a whole nation...
:21:09. > :21:14.crossed the mind as? Through a World War, which by any stretch of
:21:14. > :21:18.the imagination is a different league from what Thatcher did, was
:21:18. > :21:21.somebody who most people, even on the left, respected for what he
:21:22. > :21:26.achieved during the war and he earned a state funeral. If Thatcher
:21:26. > :21:31.gets a state funeral, I will be extremely unhappy because in many
:21:31. > :21:36.ways she divided this nation and left people behind. The nation was
:21:36. > :21:42.already changing. People were beginning to become more individual,
:21:42. > :21:46.more interested in consumerism. Before Thatcher, suddenly we were
:21:46. > :21:51.beginning to buy television sets, telephones, washing machines. You
:21:51. > :21:55.may say that was not important, but it was important. It was changing
:21:55. > :22:00.anyway. You are underestimating yourself because you are trying to
:22:00. > :22:05.say you did what you did because of Thatcher. Why did you do what you
:22:05. > :22:12.did? You're in entrepreneur. You've got your own bike company. York --
:22:12. > :22:16.you are a son of Thatcher! We will leave it there. That was a nice
:22:16. > :22:19.plug! I'm sure a lot of you will have
:22:19. > :22:21.something to say about that debate, so just log on to
:22:21. > :22:23.bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and follow the link to our message
:22:23. > :22:27.board. We're also debating live this morning from Warrington.
:22:27. > :22:31.Should the terminally ill have the right to die? And has the time come
:22:31. > :22:34.to repent? Tell us what you think about those topics or send us your
:22:34. > :22:41.ideas for future debates or any general comments you'd like to make
:22:41. > :22:44."The current legal status of assisted dying is inadequate and
:22:44. > :22:50.incoherent", so said the Report of the Commission on Assisted Dying
:22:50. > :22:53.this week. They have set out a possible legal framework that would
:22:53. > :22:56.allow some categories of the terminally ill to end their lives
:22:56. > :23:03.with medical assistance adults, of sound mind, with less than a year
:23:03. > :23:06.to live. Critics say it would undermine everyone's right to live
:23:06. > :23:15.until a natural death, however trying, expensive or inconvenient
:23:15. > :23:25.that might be for others. Should the terminally ill have the right
:23:25. > :23:26.
:23:26. > :23:30.to die? Win Crew, I'm pleased to see you here. Tell us about Reg. He
:23:30. > :23:36.was one of the first people, your husband, to go to the Swiss clinic
:23:36. > :23:42.Dignitas. He was. Why did he make that decision? He had motor neurone
:23:42. > :23:52.disease. If anyone knows about it, it is one of the most debilitating
:23:52. > :23:52.
:23:52. > :23:57.diseases you can have. The muscles just disintegrate. Reg used to go
:23:57. > :24:04.to a married Curie Hospice once a week. They are marvellous. Yes,
:24:04. > :24:09.very good. A Dr there sent for my daughter and I it after he had been
:24:09. > :24:14.going for a few weeks. She said I have to tell you that Reg is asking
:24:15. > :24:21.for the needle all the time. He keeps saying I want the needle. She
:24:21. > :24:26.said we can't do that here. To put it in a nutshell, he had suffered
:24:26. > :24:30.with this for nearly four years and he had had enough. He couldn't
:24:30. > :24:35.stand it any more. He wasn't in a lot of pain, but it was the
:24:35. > :24:42.indignity. He could not do the most basic things for himself, could not
:24:42. > :24:51.feed himself, go to the toilet, anything. You did all that? Yes. I
:24:51. > :24:57.was actually trying to lift a 15 stone man, I was in my 70s. He
:24:57. > :25:01.decided that he had to do something about it. First of all he had my
:25:01. > :25:05.daughter ringing to get through to Holland. That was to see if he
:25:05. > :25:10.could go there and they said no, you have to live here for six
:25:10. > :25:16.months, which wasn't an option. Then this programme came on the
:25:16. > :25:21.television and it was a French lady who had terminal cancer. She was
:25:21. > :25:25.going to this place in Switzerland called Dignitas to help her to die.
:25:26. > :25:32.He shouted to me and said look at this. He said if they won't help me
:25:32. > :25:36.here, this is where I'm going. I said don't be silly. But he had
:25:36. > :25:43.made his mind up. I had a phone he could use without picking it up
:25:43. > :25:47.because he could not use his hands. He rang Switzerland himself. They
:25:47. > :25:51.said they would send out the details to him. I know people think
:25:51. > :25:55.you just go, but you don't, there's more to it than that. You have to
:25:55. > :26:00.get a letter from your doctor and your medical records and various
:26:00. > :26:07.other things. And you have to be able to say, when you arrive, this
:26:07. > :26:13.is what I want. I'm ashamed to say this... My daughter and I, when the
:26:13. > :26:19.letter came from Switzerland, we put it in a draw and we did not
:26:19. > :26:27.tell him. As time went on, he started to lose the muscles in his
:26:27. > :26:31.neck, which then meant the only thing he could do... His mind was
:26:31. > :26:35.working perfectly and he could speak, but if the neck muscles went,
:26:35. > :26:39.he would not be able to speak. We knew if he went to Switzerland he
:26:39. > :26:42.would have to say this is what I want. Once the muscles in the neck
:26:43. > :26:48.had gone, he could not do that and that option would not be open.
:26:48. > :26:53.wanted to go as soon as possible. Yes. We had to give him a note and
:26:53. > :26:59.everything. When he read it, there were three different dates to go.
:26:59. > :27:05.He picked the earliest date. Did he have a passport? His passport had
:27:05. > :27:10.run out because when we renewed the passports, he said, don't bother
:27:10. > :27:15.renewing mind I would be going anywhere. We had to rush into
:27:15. > :27:19.Liverpool, we had about three days to do it. We paid extra to get the
:27:19. > :27:26.passport done that day. We had to have someone to the House to take
:27:26. > :27:36.the photographs. Had this perked him up and given him optimism? He
:27:36. > :27:37.
:27:37. > :27:42.knew there was light at the end of the tunnel? Yes. You went there.
:27:42. > :27:49.actually used the phone and he told the local paper what he was going
:27:49. > :27:52.to do. Of course, my daughter and I, because we knew what we were doing
:27:52. > :27:58.what kind of against the law, we were going to go quietly in the
:27:58. > :28:04.middle of the night. He was passionate about this issue. Can I
:28:04. > :28:12.ask you, when eventually you did go there, what was the moment of
:28:12. > :28:18.passing like for you? I couldn't imagine a better death, if you can
:28:18. > :28:24.put it that way. Really? Reg had a living will in place, when he knew
:28:24. > :28:27.he had motor neurone, he knew what the outcome would be. He had a
:28:27. > :28:35.living will in place to say he did not want to be fed artificially.
:28:35. > :28:40.His end would have been choking or starving to death. He knew that. He
:28:40. > :28:44.had made his mind up that he was going there. When he couldn't get
:28:44. > :28:50.help here, he was going to go to Switzerland. What was the moment
:28:50. > :28:53.like for you? I couldn't believe it was happening, actually. You always
:28:53. > :28:58.think these things happen to someone else, you don't think they
:28:58. > :29:05.will ever happen to you. It was unbelievable, really. But at the
:29:05. > :29:10.end of the day, it was what he wanted. The reason he told the
:29:10. > :29:15.press was because he wanted people to know that this is what could
:29:15. > :29:19.happen to you. He thought the law was wrong.
:29:19. > :29:25.Of APPLAUSE. Thank you so much for coming on and
:29:25. > :29:30.telling us this story. Sir Bert Massie, disability rights
:29:30. > :29:40.campaigner, ringing loud and clear in my mind is what she just said.
:29:40. > :29:43.
:29:43. > :29:49.That is what he wanted. Isn't that No, it is not. It affects other
:29:49. > :29:54.people. You have certain rules in society. One is that we don't kill
:29:54. > :29:59.each other. If we are going to cross the line, we need to be very
:29:59. > :30:07.careful and then need to be safeguards in place. We had Lord
:30:07. > :30:14.fogginess bail and now we have had the new commission's report. What
:30:14. > :30:22.you find missing are safeguards for disabled people. This is where it
:30:22. > :30:29.all hangs. It is about, where other safeguards? We know if you are
:30:29. > :30:34.disabled, if you go into hospital, you are likely to have a do Not
:30:34. > :30:40.resuscitate notice on your files. Doctors do not appreciate the lives
:30:40. > :30:45.of disabled people. This would entail a significant shift in
:30:45. > :30:50.values. It does more than that. We were discussing the outcome of
:30:50. > :30:56.Thatcherism. One thing Margaret Thatcher did was undermined social
:30:56. > :31:01.services provision for disabled people and Tony Blair continued it.
:31:01. > :31:05.It is now pretty appalling. If you are going to say that people should
:31:05. > :31:11.have the right to die, there is a great danger that the right to die
:31:11. > :31:21.becomes a duty to die. Disabled people often feel a burden. We feel
:31:21. > :31:23.
:31:23. > :31:29.a burden, not because -- as the society we do not use our
:31:29. > :31:34.collective might to support them. That is why many disabled people
:31:34. > :31:39.say they have won the right to die. Many disabled people do not want it.
:31:40. > :31:45.I can look at this objectively. I can change my mind once these
:31:45. > :31:51.provisions are in place. We do not have proper hospital services. We
:31:51. > :31:55.do not have proper social care. What you are saying is, you do not
:31:55. > :32:01.want the choice. We're not saying everybody would want to do what my
:32:01. > :32:05.husband did. We should have the choice. If you have a terminal
:32:05. > :32:11.illness, you are dying anyway. You should have the choice. Of course
:32:11. > :32:16.we should. The only thing wrong with dying is doing it when you do
:32:16. > :32:21.not want to. Doing it when you do want to is not a problem. While
:32:21. > :32:25.people with disabilities are absolutely entitled to equal
:32:25. > :32:33.concern, respect and protection, they are not the only vulnerable
:32:33. > :32:41.people around. There is a neglected group of vulnerable people. They
:32:41. > :32:48.want to die and feel condemned to life. Who are these people? They
:32:48. > :32:52.are the people that this report deals with. Not just those people,
:32:52. > :32:57.they have terminal conditions but simply they do not want to go on
:32:57. > :33:02.living. It is not just the terminally ill. For whatever reason
:33:02. > :33:07.is cogent to them. We should not tyrannise over other people and
:33:07. > :33:17.pre-empt their values and their choices for their own destiny. Who
:33:17. > :33:18.
:33:18. > :33:23.is anybody else to say...? What is sound about that case is the choice
:33:23. > :33:28.about going to be no Tace was motivated by fears about dignity
:33:28. > :33:35.and the method of dying - how he would spend the last days or hours
:33:35. > :33:41.of life. Also, a lack of adequate care at home. To support these
:33:41. > :33:47.exceptional cases we need to change the law. The question is, could we
:33:47. > :33:52.change the law safely? No we cannot. Safeguards are not robust enough.
:33:52. > :33:57.If we legislated for euthanasia and assisted suicide, we would
:33:57. > :34:03.essentially be normalising in society. The society we want is one
:34:03. > :34:09.where people receive compassionate care and dignity in care. Sam is on
:34:09. > :34:19.the commission. It is not euthanasia, it is voluntary
:34:19. > :34:23.
:34:23. > :34:27.euthanasia. Sam changed his mind on this. Can I verify it one point?
:34:28. > :34:32.Euthanasia, it is being talked about changing the law. The whole
:34:32. > :34:37.thrust of the commission's report is not about euthanasia. We said
:34:38. > :34:43.that at the beginning when we sat down a year ago. It is about
:34:43. > :34:51.assisted suicide. It is already illegal. People have already said
:34:51. > :34:58.it is not going far enough. The safeguards are so we do. If you
:34:58. > :35:03.read the report, the safeguards are so not clear. You are talking about
:35:03. > :35:09.safeguards for disabled. We have the best safeguards in the report.
:35:09. > :35:14.We have said that being disabled does not make you eligible. You are
:35:14. > :35:18.an expert. This is an important point. You are an expert in
:35:18. > :35:28.palliative care. Have you given up on any potential advances in
:35:28. > :35:31.
:35:31. > :35:35.palliative care? There is the postcode lottery. No, I have not.
:35:35. > :35:39.Many see changing your mind as a sign of weakness, I see it as
:35:40. > :35:44.responding to experience and responding to evidence. I have
:35:44. > :35:52.spent the last year with the Commission. We have received 12 and
:35:52. > :35:56.pieces of evidence. I spent a week in Oregon. I have been talking to
:35:56. > :36:04.the judge that brought in the law, talking to doctors and nurses that
:36:04. > :36:08.help patients achieve their own deaths. Patients actually have
:36:08. > :36:18.their prescription. Ice spent a lot of time in the Netherlands in the
:36:18. > :36:19.
:36:19. > :36:24.last few years. The evidence says, if you look in the paper, one in
:36:24. > :36:30.six of those patients were significantly clinically depressed
:36:30. > :36:35.and they were not diagnosed. If they were making a choice, it is a
:36:35. > :36:41.choice you cannot go back on it. Once you are dead, you are dead.
:36:41. > :36:48.is a mistake to think this is about adequate palliative care. It is
:36:48. > :36:55.about respecting people's choices for themselves. You do not have to
:36:55. > :37:02.qualify by being Taman only El of being in excruciating agony. --
:37:02. > :37:07.terminally ill. Sam says the report takes account of people's needs. It
:37:07. > :37:11.does not. The report is pathetic on disability. What I want to know
:37:11. > :37:18.from those who support this policy is what can you do to give you the
:37:18. > :37:24.right to die which does not add to the burden and duty to die? It lets
:37:24. > :37:29.you support disabled people. The report says that doctors should
:37:29. > :37:37.choose. Why is your burden to die so much more important than those
:37:37. > :37:42.who think that life is important? Say that again. Nobody is putting
:37:42. > :37:48.on you a burden to die. People are putting on many of us, a burden to
:37:48. > :37:58.live when we do not want to. This is a street we have to walk
:37:58. > :37:59.
:37:59. > :38:05.bedsides on. It is not just about disabilities. What about coercion?
:38:05. > :38:13.What about vulnerable people being caressed? It is a tough financial
:38:13. > :38:23.time. Some relatives may have financial benefit, they are not all
:38:23. > :38:23.
:38:23. > :38:28.loving. I want to hear from the audience. You went to Oregon.
:38:29. > :38:34.years of assisted dying, the doctors and nurses who were helping
:38:34. > :38:42.patients say they do not see corrosion will start we have the
:38:42. > :38:47.medicines. Patients go away -- correction. We have the medicines.
:38:47. > :38:51.Patients go away with the medicine. If the patient is terminally ill,
:38:52. > :38:58.the whole report is narrowed down to those who are terminally ill
:38:58. > :39:06.with 12 months or less to live. Is the patient of sound mind? Is the
:39:06. > :39:11.patient's depressed? I spoke to the psychiatrist he did the research.
:39:11. > :39:18.We have learned from that. That is why I changed my position, on the
:39:18. > :39:22.basis of evidence and learning. Many years ago I was against
:39:22. > :39:27.euthanasia. I am against the deliberate killing of other people.
:39:27. > :39:36.I am very much in favour of allowing people to have that choice.
:39:36. > :39:41.They are going to die anyway. are unintended consequences. Life
:39:41. > :39:45.is very precious. You have it once. It is very difficult to make a
:39:45. > :39:49.decision. Some of them have highlighted under what conditions
:39:49. > :39:58.the mind makes the decision. Sometimes families are not able to
:39:58. > :40:04.do it. Sometimes medical science is day-in and day-out. Some miracle
:40:04. > :40:12.might come along and these people may be treated. People have come
:40:12. > :40:18.out of comas. When does it stop? If somebody is of sound mind and makes
:40:18. > :40:22.an autonomous decision... It is about safeguards. There are good
:40:22. > :40:28.safeguards that can be put in place, perhaps building on what the
:40:28. > :40:32.commission has said bus stop talking about the attitude of the
:40:32. > :40:40.family and the psychological attitude. Or is can be down and put
:40:40. > :40:44.before a tribunal. The problem at the moment is an insane lack of
:40:44. > :40:50.resources. There are inconsistencies. It is blanket. It
:40:50. > :40:55.does not take into account autonomy. We need safeguards. We have
:40:55. > :41:03.safeguards already. We need to support people who are very Barnaga
:41:03. > :41:07.off. Lack of resources should not be a reason to keep this blanket
:41:07. > :41:13.approach. That principle of double effect is the tracksuit at minister
:41:13. > :41:22.will lessen the pain and perhaps hastened death as well. -- the
:41:22. > :41:28.drugs you administer. It was such a moving account earlier on. Who
:41:28. > :41:33.could fail but have compassion for her? I find myself teetering on one
:41:33. > :41:42.side of the argument and then the other. This commission also had
:41:42. > :41:47.another member who produced a minority of report. He changed his
:41:47. > :41:55.mind. He raised a very important question which has not been touched
:41:55. > :41:58.on. Do we have the moral right to choose whether we live or die? Is
:41:58. > :42:03.that something that, from a religious point of view we say,
:42:03. > :42:06.actually belongs to something to do with God, to do with nature, rather
:42:06. > :42:14.than as having a moral right to choose about whether we live or
:42:14. > :42:19.die? Suicide in this country is illegal at this time. It is a very
:42:19. > :42:24.important moral point. We are talking about a religious
:42:24. > :42:30.perspective. Do we have the right to do this? You might be religious
:42:30. > :42:37.and have moral views. Do not impose your religion on the rest of us in
:42:37. > :42:45.this country. Your religious police should have nothing to do with this.
:42:45. > :42:50.-- beliefs. Now we have to talk about the end of the world before
:42:50. > :42:59.the end of the programme. That is how it is. Thank you so much for
:42:59. > :43:01.taking part. I am sorry we did not have more time to talk longer. If
:43:01. > :43:04.you have something to say about that debate. Log on to
:43:04. > :43:08.bbc.co.uk/the big questions and follow the link to our message
:43:08. > :43:12.board. Or send us your views about our last Big Question. Has the time
:43:12. > :43:15.come to repent? And if you would like to be in the audience at a
:43:15. > :43:23.future show you can e-mail. We are in Peckham on January 22nd,
:43:23. > :43:26.Edinburgh on 29th and in You used to see bearded men
:43:26. > :43:34.carrying placards saying, The End of the World is Nigh, Repent Now in
:43:34. > :43:36.every town centre of the land. Well their time may finally have come.
:43:37. > :43:40.According to the Mayan Mesoamerican Long Count calendar, December 21st
:43:40. > :43:50.2012 is the end date of a 5,125 year cycle and this may herald a
:43:50. > :43:52.
:43:52. > :43:56.catastrophe or a transformation. And the Church of God pastor,
:43:56. > :44:00.Robert Weinland, says we have only got until May 27th before the final
:44:00. > :44:10.trumpet of the seventh seal of the book of revelation will sound. So,
:44:10. > :44:16.
:44:16. > :44:21.The you believe the end is coming. What will happen? Yes, I believe
:44:21. > :44:29.the end is coming. What will happen is, according to the biblical
:44:29. > :44:34.record, Christ will descend from heaven with his angels. He is
:44:34. > :44:39.coming to take those who have accepted him... Will this literally
:44:39. > :44:44.happen? In will literally happen. There will be the sound of the
:44:44. > :44:50.trumpet. The voice of the Archangel. The appearance of Christ, literally,
:44:50. > :44:55.with his angels. He's coming to take those who believe in him from
:44:55. > :45:02.this earth. He will bring justice and righteousness for top will the
:45:02. > :45:11.Skypark? The skies will open. He will descend with his angels. He is
:45:11. > :45:18.coming to take those who have been saved by his grace. Wait a minute...
:45:19. > :45:27.You are not going to be laughing soon! Listen, this is all in the
:45:27. > :45:31.Bible, Book of Revelation has... Revelations, the Book of John.
:45:31. > :45:38.There's a 1,000 year period, what happens then? A period of a 1,000
:45:38. > :45:44.years. That begins at the coming of Christ. He comes to take those who
:45:44. > :45:49.have been saved by his grace. Thos who have not accepted Christ,
:45:49. > :45:54.because God gives everybody the provision to accept the Salvation
:45:54. > :46:00.he offers free of charge. He has offered salvation free of charge
:46:00. > :46:10.for those who accept him. It is not just seven Day Adventists. Everyone.
:46:10. > :46:12.
:46:12. > :46:17.Not Muslims or Hindus? Atheists? Jews? No. In the Book of Johns,
:46:17. > :46:22.chapter 14, of first six, it says that a buyer and the way, the truth
:46:22. > :46:31.and the life. He only takes those who believe in him? What about
:46:31. > :46:38.children? No one comes on to the Father except through me. It is a
:46:38. > :46:47.radical statement. Nonsensical statement. A rubbish. What would
:46:47. > :46:54.you like to say? Let me finish. Salvation comes only through Christ.
:46:54. > :47:01.Salvation comes through him. OK. We have a vision, if that is the right
:47:01. > :47:04.word, of what will happen, and it is in the Bible. We are talking
:47:04. > :47:10.about fundamentalism and that produces problems in all major
:47:10. > :47:14.world religions and it produces problems in Christianity. You are
:47:14. > :47:20.cherry-picking. For this is a fundamentalist interpretation of
:47:20. > :47:25.scripture which misunderstands the very poetic piece of writing. It
:47:25. > :47:30.misunderstands ball's view that the kingdom was coming immediately, not
:47:30. > :47:33.in 2000 years. We now know there was a misunderstanding of Paul and
:47:33. > :47:38.the early Christians, they thought Christ was coming back again. We
:47:38. > :47:43.now work on an entirely different basis. It is in the New Testament.
:47:43. > :47:48.So what? There are things in the New Testament -- which -- New
:47:48. > :47:57.Testament which we have to reinterpret. This fundamentalist
:47:57. > :48:05.approach doesn't work. Is the Antichrist here? Not in the studio!
:48:05. > :48:14.Although I have my suspicions. On her. The Antichrist is here.
:48:14. > :48:20.earth? A yes. The Antichrist is a spirit. Satan's emissary.
:48:20. > :48:29.spirit of the devil. The Antichrist's view is that it works
:48:29. > :48:35.in different systems. Diana... Let other people speak. It is the
:48:35. > :48:38.spirit of the devil. Seven Day Adventists and grew up to something
:48:38. > :48:44.called a great disappointment, which was a prediction that Jesus
:48:44. > :48:47.would come. They were waiting in a field for Jesus to come, he did not
:48:47. > :48:51.come, and they decided the privacy was run. With respect, religious
:48:51. > :48:55.people have been wrong every time because the world hasn't ended yet.
:48:55. > :49:01.If you predict the world enough -- the end of the world enough times,
:49:01. > :49:07.eventually it will happen. I would ask you about what this means.
:49:07. > :49:17.you read the Bible, Christ tells you in the Book of Matthew 24, no
:49:17. > :49:17.
:49:17. > :49:25.one knows the day or the hour. it could be any time. I want to
:49:25. > :49:29.jump in. A we may not have much time. I find it hilarious to
:49:29. > :49:33.describe the sky as opening because if it did, there is a solar system.
:49:33. > :49:37.We have seen the structure of the universe, there is not a heaven up
:49:37. > :49:42.there. I find it amazing to hear him say it is fundamentalism, we
:49:42. > :49:46.don't literally believe the Bible any more. That is bizarre, that is
:49:46. > :49:52.like saying I believe in an all- powerful God but there are some
:49:52. > :49:57.typos in the book he wrote. I have one more point, which goes to the
:49:57. > :50:00.question. Is it time to repent? I think repentance is one of the most
:50:00. > :50:05.dangerous ideas that religion has given the world. The idea that you
:50:05. > :50:09.can do things wrong and just say sorry. There are a lot of wrong
:50:09. > :50:13.things and the world, the way we pollute the environment, all sorts
:50:13. > :50:18.of dreadful things to the planet. Saying sorry is not good enough, we
:50:18. > :50:22.have to change the way we live and respect the planet and the science
:50:22. > :50:26.we know about. I have to let him come back on that. That is a
:50:26. > :50:31.caricature -- caricature of what I'm saying. I believe Jesus
:50:31. > :50:36.preached about the Kingdom of God. It was fundamental to his teaching.
:50:36. > :50:40.Do you believe in the six-day creation? I do not. There are bits
:50:41. > :50:46.of the Bible you think are lies? I would expand that to say the whole
:50:46. > :50:55.thing. There's a lot of poetry and allegory and parable in the Bible.
:50:55. > :51:01.Couldn't it be clearer? Time is running out. In many senses! Graham
:51:01. > :51:06.Hancock, author of The Fingerprint Of The Gods, do you feel the times
:51:06. > :51:12.are changing? It is important to Korea -- correct and the Sampras
:51:12. > :51:15.Cajun? And the Mayan calendar does not predict the end of the world on
:51:15. > :51:22.21st December. It is a cyclical calendar and it predicts the end of
:51:22. > :51:26.the cycle. It is interesting that that runs for 5126 years. That is
:51:26. > :51:29.the period of the big state, the powerful hierarchies, the
:51:30. > :51:34.centralised government. The period we have been living through.
:51:34. > :51:40.Everybody can see that that model is broken and it doesn't apply and
:51:40. > :51:45.it doesn't work. By coincidence or design... The dawning of a new age.
:51:45. > :51:50.We're coming to the end of an old age. A what are the signs? Total
:51:50. > :51:53.chaos we live in today. We have always lived in total chaos.
:51:53. > :51:58.breakdown of a model that has worked for so long, which is no
:51:58. > :52:04.longer serving us, no longer helping humanity. Have we not
:52:04. > :52:08.always lived in total chaos? Yes. It goes back to what we were
:52:08. > :52:12.talking about earlier, the economic collapse is not an act of God, it
:52:12. > :52:16.is a result of the economic system in which we live which leads to
:52:16. > :52:22.slump and unemployment and our answer to that, there are practical
:52:23. > :52:28.answers we can have to that economic crisis. It isn't about...
:52:28. > :52:33.Let's get back to this. You're a chauvinistic... A shame and a stick
:52:33. > :52:39.practitioner. What are the signs? The Bible is not the only book in
:52:39. > :52:45.the world. We are forgetting something fundamental. Everything
:52:45. > :52:50.is alive. In my lifetime, I've seen the destruction and the extinction
:52:50. > :52:54.of millions of species of animals and plants on this planet. I've
:52:54. > :52:58.seen the air and the water be contaminated and polluted to a
:52:58. > :53:01.tremendous extend. I've seen atomic bombs being blown up in the living
:53:01. > :53:08.body of our mother, this grandmother Earth, this planet we
:53:08. > :53:14.live on. These atrocities need to stop now. The Mayans are saying
:53:14. > :53:23.this. They are shouting from the mountains in Guatemala, wake up.
:53:23. > :53:27.This is a nightmare and we need to stop this now. They say one thing,
:53:27. > :53:31.we need unity, we are peoples of this planet, we are like the
:53:31. > :53:36.fingers on hand, we are different but the same and we are united in
:53:36. > :53:42.the hand. We need to listen to these people and on of the covenant
:53:42. > :53:49.our ancestors, our forefathers and for mothers gave us of a beautiful
:53:50. > :53:58.pristine planet. 99% of the species that ever existed are extinct.
:53:58. > :54:01.We may go that way some time soon. Definitely. We certainly are
:54:01. > :54:05.accelerating that possibility in myriad different ways. Whenever
:54:05. > :54:09.people talk about the end of the world, they are talking about the
:54:09. > :54:14.end of the human species. We are different, we have the power of
:54:14. > :54:18.choice. That makes us different. All species can make decisions.
:54:18. > :54:24.globally effective decisions. We should take responsibility for that
:54:24. > :54:28.choice. We are animals. I agree, this is what we should move to. We
:54:28. > :54:35.should move to the era of individual sovereignty for of we
:54:35. > :54:39.are back to Mrs Thatcher! Derek Hatton. I listen a lot of Brian Cox
:54:39. > :54:44.and it does appear that we have about 300 million years to go
:54:44. > :54:50.before we actually or go. Maybe it is a little bit premature to start
:54:50. > :54:54.preparing for now, but maybe not. The one thing the millenarian
:54:54. > :55:02.movements have got right is we know the world will end. We know the sun
:55:02. > :55:07.must die. But there is hope and the hope is us. We are capable of
:55:07. > :55:12.inventing ways of getting to other planets and colonising them and we
:55:12. > :55:17.had better start thinking about how to do that now. Science is our best
:55:17. > :55:21.hope for doing it. Fix this one first. That is a millenarian belief
:55:21. > :55:25.in itself, that we will go to other planets. Stephen Hawking was
:55:25. > :55:29.talking about this. We can solve the problems here and now, we are
:55:29. > :55:36.intelligent and capable and we can make choices. We need to make the
:55:36. > :55:40.right choices. That partly involved mending broken model. These ideas
:55:40. > :55:46.about how Kimmons will solve the problems. People are talking about
:55:46. > :55:51.assisted suicide when millions of people are starving. The idea I'm
:55:51. > :55:55.taking is that we will colonise us stars and planets when people are
:55:55. > :56:01.hungry on this planet. The idea that we can make choices and solve
:56:01. > :56:05.the problems of the world. Can I ask one question? If it is all
:56:05. > :56:14.going to be destroyed, is there any point trying to save it? There's no
:56:15. > :56:19.point saving it. Jesus will come down... If this is interesting.
:56:19. > :56:23.After cheeses will come down and destroy everything. According to
:56:23. > :56:30.biblical record, he will make all things... This is according to
:56:30. > :56:39.Harry Potter! I believe... Are we don't believe that. I believe
:56:39. > :56:46.there's a God. We can't create life. Thursday -- there's no point trying
:56:46. > :56:50.to save the animals? Only if you believe in him. He has made
:56:50. > :56:55.provision for everyone. Believe in me or die. What an appalling
:56:55. > :57:01.creature that is. There is evil in the world. That is a demon not have
:57:01. > :57:05.got. He needs to get rid of evil. The actions you are proposing for
:57:05. > :57:11.this creature are demonic. You are saying he will only take those who
:57:11. > :57:14.believe in him. Arrogant and so wrong. He gives you the choice.
:57:14. > :57:23.choice is believe in me or body, what kind of choices that?
:57:23. > :57:31.Monstrous. I made a provision for you. No. Nobody could believe in
:57:31. > :57:35.such a creature. Appalling. Bishop Stephen. I find myself miles apart
:57:35. > :57:40.from my brother Christian. I believe in a loving God, a Jesus
:57:40. > :57:48.Christ who came inclusively to welcome all people and draw in all
:57:48. > :57:52.people. The that is what he's saying. I believe in the same God
:57:53. > :57:57.as the Islamic God, the same God as the part of Hinduism and the major
:57:57. > :58:02.world religions. You think you'll burn. I don't believe in people
:58:02. > :58:08.burning. A millions of Muslims think you are condemned. They all
:58:08. > :58:16.believe in different gods and none of them is remotely credible.
:58:16. > :58:19.Another morning of Harmony(!) Give yourselves a round of applause.
:58:19. > :58:22.All the debates continue on our message board. We're here again