:00:32. > :00:36.Thank you very much. Good morning. Welcome from the Manor Church of
:00:36. > :00:40.England School in York. One of the stranger developments in Christian
:00:40. > :00:48.faith is more people believed in the literal truth of the Bible
:00:48. > :00:53.today than they did 50 years ago, or 100 years ago, or even 200 years
:00:53. > :00:58.ago. Other than the Commandments that Moses brought down the
:00:58. > :01:07.mountain, the verses of the Bible used to be regarded as man-made,
:01:07. > :01:16.divinely inspired but not the words of God. Sections of all three
:01:16. > :01:24.Abraham make face up at odds. -- faiths are at odds. This morning
:01:24. > :01:29.we're asking one big question - is fundamentalism undermining faith?
:01:29. > :01:39.We have distinguished scholars and people from many faiths. We have a
:01:39. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :01:45.very lively audience in York. As always, you can join in as well.
:01:45. > :01:55.Just log on to the website where you will find links to places. You
:01:55. > :01:55.
:01:55. > :02:01.can continue to discuss this online. His fundamentalism undermining --
:02:01. > :02:06.undermining faith? Professor Linda Woodhead, why is fundamentalism, do
:02:06. > :02:13.you believe, dangerous? Fundamentalism is a very modern
:02:13. > :02:17.thing. It only arises in a modern period. It is a misconception that
:02:17. > :02:24.it comes from the past and it is just the past repeating itself. It
:02:24. > :02:28.is not. It wants to be clear and simple and wants to purify. It is
:02:28. > :02:35.like melting down gold. It wants to find a simple truth and we can
:02:35. > :02:40.think we have got it and they have not got it. It is like advertising.
:02:40. > :02:47.It inherently breeds this us and them. We have the truth, we're the
:02:47. > :02:55.only ones who have it. That is dangerous. Is it growing? Yes, and
:02:55. > :03:01.know. In this country, evangelicalism is growing. It is
:03:01. > :03:06.like a Nis. The problem is it is not that the fundamentalists are in
:03:06. > :03:11.huge numbers, they influence all sorts of religion. If you take the
:03:11. > :03:19.Catholic Church or the Church of England they have become much more
:03:19. > :03:24.conservative since the 70s. That is the real problem. That is
:03:24. > :03:31.interesting. It is this clinging to literalism which is a recent
:03:31. > :03:38.phenomenon. How did they 150 years ago see the Bible? Was it very
:03:38. > :03:45.different way? I would like to call it back dualism or positivism in a
:03:45. > :03:52.way. These are completely clear facts. There is no dispute. It is
:03:52. > :03:57.clear to everyone. It is modern. In the past, there were many more
:03:57. > :04:04.understandings. There were layers you could read the Bible at - a
:04:04. > :04:10.literal one and an allegorical one. It took a lifetime to absorb the
:04:10. > :04:18.scriptures. Now you can instantly understand what it is. You are
:04:18. > :04:24.either with us or against us, like the George Bush thing. Absolutely.
:04:24. > :04:31.Mark Mullins, dying to cumin. You are an evangelical Christian. You
:04:31. > :04:37.believe the Bible is little, inherent and historical. Yes.
:04:37. > :04:47.Earth was created in six days. No are live till he was 950. Moses
:04:47. > :04:48.
:04:48. > :04:57.parted the Red suit. Yes. This is like a check list. -- Red Sea.
:04:58. > :05:01.Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt? Yes, that is right. Jesus
:05:01. > :05:09.said, watch out! Learn a lesson from this. The ever-changing
:05:09. > :05:15.message in the Bible is that we must leave this world - the desires
:05:15. > :05:21.of this world - to follow the path that God has set for each one of us.
:05:21. > :05:27.Week might leave our sin behind by putting our faith in the Lord Jesus
:05:27. > :05:32.Christ. That is an inference from a message. Does it mean that
:05:32. > :05:35.historically it happened? It is hysterical because the Bible is
:05:35. > :05:42.based on the true accounts of what took place in the Old Testament and
:05:42. > :05:48.the New Testament. How can anyone live to 950? It is quite simple,
:05:48. > :05:54.they do not die until they are 950. My father would not have guessed he
:05:54. > :05:59.would still be alive at 98 but he is. Human lifespan is unpredictable.
:05:59. > :06:08.All we know it is it will come to an end. All we know in the early
:06:08. > :06:12.days of the Bible is the situation they lived was different. In the
:06:12. > :06:19.West, the circumstances we have men are much better than they are in
:06:19. > :06:26.Africa. The average age is greater. This is just being purist, isn't
:06:26. > :06:35.it? It is reading it as though it is an historical document. The
:06:35. > :06:45.Bible is made up of all sorts of Sean Rowe us - poetry and history.
:06:45. > :06:45.
:06:45. > :06:50.-- genres. What of the simple and sincere faith he is addressing?
:06:50. > :06:56.was just wondering, what is going on where some one thinks, this is
:06:57. > :07:03.definitely truth? I can find not many things that I believe are
:07:03. > :07:09.definitely true. I do not want a binary view of the world. There is
:07:09. > :07:16.right and wrong and good and evil. Jesus said, I am the way, the truce
:07:16. > :07:24.and the life. He has put up a standard. Quoting the gospel to me
:07:24. > :07:29.it will not work! Why ever not? You are asking me why I believe in
:07:29. > :07:37.binary, true and false. The reason I do is that Jews is believed there
:07:37. > :07:41.was one way to his father and that was through him. -- Jesus believed.
:07:41. > :07:48.It is black and white. I want to go the right way which would take me
:07:48. > :07:53.to heaven. I hope you will come with me. And what would happen to
:07:53. > :08:02.me? What would happen to it every sinner, which is, every sinner who
:08:02. > :08:10.does not put their trust in Jesus will be judged on Nursing. I want
:08:10. > :08:20.to know, what happens next? Let's say, I am a sinner. What will you
:08:20. > :08:20.
:08:20. > :08:27.do to me? I will do nothing to you. I will pray for you. Jesus says,
:08:27. > :08:36.those who do the will of my father. It is how we behave. It is not
:08:36. > :08:41.about taking certain boxes. It is not good enough to do that. You
:08:41. > :08:48.need to live your life in the wake of his teaching. My father's house
:08:48. > :08:58.has many mansions. We have gospels that contradict each other all over
:08:58. > :09:04.
:09:04. > :09:14.the place. Different times, saying different things. What Church are
:09:14. > :09:14.
:09:14. > :09:24.you from? You believe the Bible is a literal truth. There are no
:09:24. > :09:25.
:09:25. > :09:30.Muslims in heaven who have not accepted Jesus? You have to accept
:09:30. > :09:35.Jesus. Before I accepted Jesus Christ, I could think how she is
:09:35. > :09:40.thinking. It does not make sense and it does not bother me. When
:09:40. > :09:46.Jesus Christ comes into your life, you see something different. That
:09:46. > :09:51.is when you can understand. I know where I used to be and where I am
:09:51. > :09:57.now. When they are talking about the Bible, I can support him by
:09:57. > :10:03.saying, it is a fact. I can understand it clearly. Why did
:10:03. > :10:12.Jesus abandon those who do not accept him? No, Jesus does not
:10:12. > :10:22.abandon everyone. I die for anyone. Whosoever I will welcome into my
:10:22. > :10:22.
:10:22. > :10:30.kingdom. It is welcome. And to live the life. Is this what Linda means
:10:30. > :10:37.by it is them and us? Indeed so. I share many believes. I believe the
:10:37. > :10:44.Bible is true. What do you mean true? What is it for a collection
:10:44. > :10:49.of documents that includes songs, stories and poems? What is it
:10:49. > :10:53.Foreign poem to be true? It is different to say a collection of
:10:53. > :10:59.propositions is true. It contains many different sorts of things.
:10:59. > :11:05.When we read these things, we must do it in community, in our
:11:05. > :11:11.tradition and using our minds and reason. There can be rational
:11:11. > :11:17.Christianity's. The message is true in a sense. We can read a piece of
:11:17. > :11:25.fiction and there is a truth in that? There is absolute truth in
:11:25. > :11:35.the Bible. Linda used a good word - Thatcherism. We do not read it with
:11:35. > :11:41.
:11:41. > :11:50.a factual missed approach. -- factualism. Siegfried Sassoon wrote
:11:50. > :11:57.a poem about the First World War. He wrote a poem about a fact. The
:11:57. > :12:06.fact you write it in poetic form does not make it any less true.
:12:06. > :12:11.What is the danger in s? What does it lead to? I believe it leads to
:12:11. > :12:17.exclusion and lack of nuance. When I hear about Jesus calling me a
:12:17. > :12:24.sinner - I have not been called A Senna for so long, it is amazing.
:12:24. > :12:30.When you call me a sinner, I feel frightened with what comes with it.
:12:30. > :12:37.What comes next is, so what do you do to the other? It is about, who
:12:37. > :12:44.is the Beth in this discussion. If we are sitting together and
:12:44. > :12:51.listening, it is interesting and delightful. What I want to know and
:12:51. > :12:57.I'm scared about vandalism. It is about what happens to the other.
:12:57. > :13:04.am feeling very confused. I am hearing what Linda says and am
:13:04. > :13:10.saying that is fine. I disagree with both of you. My point of view
:13:10. > :13:15.as a modern Orthodox Jew, I engage with secular studies and science. I
:13:15. > :13:21.believe the five books of Moses were given by God. In my own
:13:21. > :13:29.tradition, we believe there are 70 different interpretations of every
:13:29. > :13:35.text. We have exclusive salvation rests here who say they have the
:13:35. > :13:41.one truce and that is what will save you. The rest of you are
:13:41. > :13:46.damned. I am trying to claim authenticity. 200 years ago, the
:13:46. > :13:53.point of view of mark would not be authentic. I'm not going to
:13:53. > :14:00.surrender might authenticity. less modern Orthodox Jew would not
:14:00. > :14:10.recognise Rabbi Laura as a rabbi, would they? Is she a rabbi? Is she
:14:10. > :14:18.
:14:19. > :14:27.a rabbi? It is not yes or no number Macro. Is she a rabbi? -- at no.
:14:27. > :14:34.recognised -- I recognised Laura as a reformed rabbi. Let me be very
:14:34. > :14:40.clear about this. We both know there is a different qualification
:14:40. > :14:44.to being an orthodox rabbi to being a Reform rabbi. Laura might say the
:14:44. > :14:52.components are becoming a Reform rabbi are better and I am going to
:14:52. > :15:01.say it vice-versa. I am trying to connect this back to a truce. To be
:15:01. > :15:10.called a sin and not a rabbi within I can stand up for myself. It was a
:15:10. > :15:14.bit of a politician's answer, I've got to say. Coming back to truth,
:15:14. > :15:16.what's the thing is, what I want to say is about the voicings we are
:15:16. > :15:19.hearing and about the question whether fundamentalism is
:15:19. > :15:22.undermining faith. To have a point of view, the question is how it
:15:22. > :15:26.comes out in action. One of my concerns about the rise that
:15:27. > :15:31.Professor Linda talked about in fundamentalism here and a different
:15:31. > :15:33.rise is that it is impacting on how people are treating, for instance,
:15:33. > :15:39.women. The gender separation of women and what's happening is
:15:39. > :15:44.changing and it concerns me. Is this a reaction, do you think,
:15:44. > :15:49.this fundamentalism, against the march of feminism? Absolutely.
:15:49. > :15:53.do? Absolutely uniform across fundamentalism. It's patriarchal.
:15:53. > :15:56.All sorts of fundamentalism believe men and women are not just
:15:56. > :16:00.different but unequal and that men should have control, I would say
:16:00. > :16:05.domination, and there's a very strong homosexuality drive in all
:16:05. > :16:10.of it. It's very much about a particular model about purification,
:16:10. > :16:15.a pure masculinity. That's very much at the heart of fundamentalism,
:16:15. > :16:19.more forms. Alex is back. What about those trying to struggle with
:16:19. > :16:24.all churches and movements which have accepted women bishops, rim
:16:24. > :16:29.Rabbi, including my own. I know it's not very minister, but there
:16:29. > :16:34.are four rim Orthodox ordained Rabbis. It's a struggle. Is it
:16:34. > :16:39.discriminatory? Are the Orthodox Jewish being discriminatory against
:16:39. > :16:43.women? I don't think they are. They are looking at building their tra
:16:43. > :16:49.diss on centuries of Jewish law -- traditions. It's an intellectual
:16:49. > :16:53.struggle between those who'll shut down, any attempts of the past to
:16:53. > :16:57.ordain women, and now precedents versus those, perhaps like me,
:16:57. > :17:02.looking at ways of promoting women into leadership and recognising
:17:02. > :17:09.them there. The reform movement's only been ordaining Rabbis since
:17:09. > :17:13.1972. OK. Mr Khalid, we'll be with you in
:17:13. > :17:17.a moment. Some of this is familiar to you guys, I know that. Laura,
:17:17. > :17:22.come back? The women who've been ordained have been privately
:17:22. > :17:28.ordained, they do nothing in public and there is a deep and deepening
:17:29. > :17:33.concern... In the Orthodox? Judaism but not only there. Hang on.
:17:33. > :17:38.Against women speaking out in public so there is a move to stop
:17:38. > :17:41.women speaking in politic where a young lady will see nothing as an
:17:41. > :17:45.insult in comparison what's's happening. At least let me correct
:17:45. > :17:49.that. There are women speaking out in public. The women who've been
:17:49. > :17:59.ordained have Rabbi roles or leadership roles within their
:17:59. > :18:00.
:18:00. > :18:06.synagogue, I can't let that go. You know that in Riverdale they are...
:18:06. > :18:08.It's apologetics. I'm not apologising. We come from different
:18:08. > :18:11.denominations and as a result I recognise you from that
:18:11. > :18:17.denomination and you should recognise me. We are struck wling
:18:17. > :18:22.that issue and promoting women into leadership roles. -- struggling
:18:22. > :18:25.with that issue. In some circumstances in fundamentalism
:18:25. > :18:31.Judaism, women are being stopped singing in public, they are not
:18:31. > :18:36.allowed to go into same zones in public as men. That is really the
:18:36. > :18:46.concerning issue because... It's modern Orthodox... You are proving
:18:46. > :18:47.
:18:47. > :18:50.the point! Alex, I'm going to shuffle along to another great
:18:50. > :18:56.religion now. You will have another chance later on because I know you
:18:56. > :19:02.want to come back. Khalid and Haras. Is some of this stuff familiar to
:19:02. > :19:05.you? That es exactly what I was thinking. I'm hearing the same
:19:05. > :19:12.debate within the Muslim community. We have the same sort of issues, we
:19:12. > :19:16.are tackling the same sort of problems. For me, really, it's as
:19:16. > :19:23.soon as we make religion into just rituals and into dogma that we
:19:23. > :19:27.twoish impose on others, that's where the problem starts -- wish to
:19:27. > :19:30.impose on others, that's where the problem starts. We really need to
:19:30. > :19:34.be able to have space and space within our communities and in the
:19:34. > :19:39.public sphere to be able to discuss openly to be able to understand, to
:19:39. > :19:47.be able to challenge our scholars so that we can progress as a
:19:47. > :19:50.community and as a faith. There's a great deference and sometimes
:19:50. > :19:54.unquestioning deference towards scholars, oh, we have to ask them
:19:54. > :19:59.about that, they say this and that, why are the scholars necessarily
:19:59. > :20:03.right? Absolutely. We understand that scholars have studied quite a
:20:03. > :20:05.lot, but being a scholar is not, just from a Muslim perspective, not
:20:05. > :20:10.just about understanding Islamic law. It's a whole lot more than
:20:10. > :20:16.that. You have to be a part player in society. You have to be able to
:20:16. > :20:18.contextualise what you are learning. So the best scholars, the most
:20:18. > :20:23.relatable scholars are those that can understand the context in which
:20:23. > :20:29.we live and be able to relate to that. But also it's very important
:20:29. > :20:35.that the scholars recognise what the purpose of any law or any
:20:35. > :20:39.decision is. Going back to the original question Nicky, is
:20:39. > :20:42.fundamentalism a danger to faith. I think it's a serious danger and
:20:42. > :20:50.it's something we haven't talked about which is terrorism and
:20:50. > :20:54.extremism. Fundamentalism, the caix of them and us, the way that you or
:20:54. > :20:58.some extremists regard the other as somebody that is a viable target
:20:58. > :21:04.for terrorist activities, whoever they are, and that can be within
:21:04. > :21:07.the same faith or outside... It's said as though there is a
:21:07. > :21:11.supremacy about them? Absolutely. There is a concept in Islam which
:21:11. > :21:16.raised its ugly head a couple of hundred years ago, or maybe a bit
:21:17. > :21:23.before that as well. That's the concept of saying that anybody who
:21:23. > :21:30.does not agree with the way that I interpret - that's the key word
:21:30. > :21:34.interpret the Koran - is not a Muslim or is not somebody that I
:21:34. > :21:41.actually should treat in the same manner as I can treat a Muslim. He
:21:41. > :21:45.or sh she is a target. We hear this all the time, she's not a proper
:21:45. > :21:51.Muslim. We had a hint of that earlier on didn't we maybe as well?
:21:51. > :22:01.We did, and for me, it's a disgrace, quite honestly. We are ourselves
:22:01. > :22:01.
:22:01. > :22:11.and we stand before God ourselves. It's not in my mind that I should
:22:11. > :22:11.
:22:11. > :22:15.judge somebody else. There's... Hold fire. Something
:22:15. > :22:19.inspires me, there are as many parts to God as there are breaths
:22:19. > :22:23.to man and that's something that I buy into and try and live my life
:22:24. > :22:28.to. You would say there's only one path to God, wouldn't you, Abdullah
:22:28. > :22:35.Hassan, and I know that I think it's mandatory for women to wear a
:22:35. > :22:44.head covering for example? A hijab, yes. If they don't? Can I just add
:22:44. > :22:48.a few comments? In a minute. I want the answer the question. Do it my
:22:48. > :22:55.way, my way's the only way, that's what we have been talking about!
:22:55. > :22:59.Is it mandatory for women to wear the Islamic hijab? From an Islamic
:22:59. > :23:04.perspective, and this is the mainstream view of the majority of
:23:04. > :23:14.the scholars, throughout the world, Muslim women, they have to cover
:23:14. > :23:19.their head and wear the hijab. They'll be... I'm not in a position
:23:19. > :23:25.to look down upon them or rebuke them or sensor them, I encourage
:23:25. > :23:28.them to wear the hijab. Or God will judge them? This is a personal are
:23:28. > :23:32.laitionship between them and God. - - relationship. I'm not in a
:23:32. > :23:36.position to tell them to wear the hijab, I would like them to observe
:23:36. > :23:43.the hijab because this is what Islam says, but if they do not wish
:23:43. > :23:48.to - it's a matter of choice. phrase "I would like them to wear
:23:48. > :23:54.hijab", it's got nothing to do with you or I as to what a Muslim woman
:23:54. > :23:57.wears on her head. That's her decision. Much of what Khalid said,
:23:57. > :24:01.we have to understand that there are certain principles that do not
:24:01. > :24:06.change. In Islam, we have the five pillars of Islam. We have to
:24:06. > :24:10.believe in God, pray and so on and so forth. I said to him, principled
:24:10. > :24:13.were never changed. There were other issues which are between them
:24:13. > :24:17.they'll change the time and place and context. Certain things in
:24:17. > :24:23.Islam will not change. The hijab, the issue of hijab women need to
:24:23. > :24:27.cover, this will not change. This is... Just because I follow a view,
:24:27. > :24:31.does not make me a fundamentalist. To two back, what does that mean.
:24:31. > :24:41.People will say because I pray I'm extremist or fundamentalist. But I
:24:41. > :24:41.
:24:41. > :24:46.don't agree with that. You say that scholars are divided on this, but...
:24:46. > :24:51.Can I finish this point? I thought you had, sorry. The principles in
:24:51. > :24:58.Islam have not changed within communities, but most of the things
:24:58. > :25:05.do change. The issue of the hijab will not change. Are all schools of
:25:05. > :25:11.Islam saying that women should wear the hijab? Are all responses...
:25:11. > :25:15.Let's get Khalid in. Wait, wait, Khalid, come back? I understand
:25:15. > :25:19.what you are saying, but you have gone from the five pillars of Islam
:25:19. > :25:24.to hijab. That's the jump that I struggle with. I understand that
:25:24. > :25:28.the majority of scholars consider hijab to be compulsory. I can
:25:28. > :25:32.understand that. There are people who would discuss that. That
:25:32. > :25:38.discussion should be allowable and it may be that in time people,
:25:38. > :25:43.because the verse that you have taken ant hijab, it's interpreted,
:25:43. > :25:47.OK. It's interpreted and something... Can I answer the
:25:48. > :25:51.question... Can I speak for a moment? After Khalid. So all I'm
:25:51. > :25:57.saying is that from jumping from the five pillars where I agree with
:25:57. > :26:02.you totally to hijab or to something else, OK, is not quite in
:26:02. > :26:05.the same bracket. I think there is discussion among scholars about the
:26:05. > :26:08.hijab. I gave an example of the five pillars, I could have
:26:08. > :26:11.mentioned about stealing, lying, the principle will not change so I
:26:11. > :26:15.could have mention odd they are things but we don't have time
:26:15. > :26:19.obviously. I think a woman can answer that question regarding
:26:19. > :26:23.hijab. Yvonne, you have been on an incredible journey. Give her a
:26:23. > :26:27.round of applause, she's here today. One thing with you that I noticed
:26:27. > :26:32.because we worked together years ago on Carlton Television before
:26:32. > :26:37.you went to Afghanistan and you reverted to Islam. You don't shake
:26:37. > :26:42.a man's hand any more, why is that? No, that was something that I
:26:42. > :26:46.looked into. At first I did, but some men are hand shakers, others
:26:46. > :26:49.aren't. So I would extend my hand and they would go like that. Then I
:26:49. > :26:53.wouldn't and they would go like that and in the end I decided the
:26:53. > :27:00.easiest thing to do is not to shake anybody's hand and go for the least
:27:00. > :27:08.line of resistance. Is that in the Koran or anything? Yes. I'm not a
:27:08. > :27:13.scholar, I am learning about Islam. But one thing that Islam has is a
:27:13. > :27:18.rotten public perception. The outside, people looking outside
:27:18. > :27:24.look and see the press subjugated silent woman when they see a woman
:27:24. > :27:29.with the hijab. The problem is, Islam has been hijacked by male
:27:29. > :27:34.dominated cultures. We see it across Britain. You look at the
:27:34. > :27:41.breakdown of mosque mitttys, they're nearly all men. You look at
:27:41. > :27:48.all the Sounds familiar... listened to you and had sympathy
:27:48. > :27:53.there. You look at all the Muslim males with the organisations
:27:53. > :27:59.speaking for women. I did look into the hijab, it was more than a year
:27:59. > :28:03.that I put on a hijab. It is simple. There's one rule for women and that
:28:04. > :28:08.is to dress modestly and cover your head. You used to dress modestly
:28:09. > :28:13.when I knew you before? My little black dress is now a big black
:28:13. > :28:18.dress, that's the main difference. But the rules and regulations
:28:18. > :28:23.governing what men should wear, there's a great big long list and
:28:23. > :28:28.yet everybody will focus on the hijab. It's so wrong to do to just
:28:28. > :28:32.focus on this one piece. Do you want to come in here? Yes, it's
:28:32. > :28:37.really interesting what Yvonne is saying and similar concerns to what
:28:37. > :28:43.I've had over the years. 13 years as a Member of Parliament for
:28:43. > :28:49.Keighley, 20, probable more than 20% now Muslim, mainly Pakistani,
:28:49. > :28:52.some Bangladeshis and I have great concern and have great -- had great
:28:52. > :28:57.concern about men and their views of women monopolise the thinking
:28:57. > :29:01.both inside and outside of the mosque. But that's not Islamic.
:29:01. > :29:08.It's totally cultural and it really is in your area and in Jack Straw's
:29:08. > :29:12.area that I cannot go and walk into a mosque and pray. It's absolutely
:29:12. > :29:16.outrageous. They'll open the doors to Condoleezza Rice, she was
:29:16. > :29:19.welcomed, but as a Muslim woman I couldn't go in and pray. This is
:29:19. > :29:24.outrageous. One of the great similarities between Islam and
:29:24. > :29:28.Judaism is the way that we work with law. One of the struggles for
:29:28. > :29:33.us, as Jews and for Jewish women and progressive Jews, is being able
:29:33. > :29:36.to be decision-makers as women. I want to ask you, you talk about
:29:36. > :29:40.authority and scholars, what is the gender of people who make
:29:40. > :29:45.decisions? I don't know, I would love to know. Can I make a point
:29:45. > :29:50.before I answer the question? would like you to answer the
:29:50. > :29:54.question. I agree with much of what Yvonne said and what the woman said
:29:54. > :29:59.about men dominating. Before I was a pointer of the Imam, you know, it
:29:59. > :30:03.was like I was too young and people were saying why are you an Imam, so
:30:03. > :30:07.it's not only women. But to answer that question... You will always be
:30:07. > :30:11.young but you will always be a man, that's the thing? It's true, I
:30:11. > :30:15.agree with that, but many Muslim societies, men dominate and speak
:30:15. > :30:20.for him, they say what they should wear, what they should eat and how
:30:20. > :30:26.they should move about. We have many female scholars in the past
:30:26. > :30:33.and they taught men so Islamic history, there we had the wife of
:30:33. > :30:41.the Prophet Mohammed, the other female companions, they were the
:30:41. > :30:45.first leaders to embrace that. Let's get back to the down bit. I
:30:46. > :30:50.you believe if somebody accepts the science of for example evolution
:30:50. > :30:54.which is I think it's something like 98.9% of the scientists in the
:30:54. > :31:00.world accept broadly speaking you say they're not a proper Muslim.
:31:00. > :31:04.This is a problem. I didn't say that. I thought you did. Let me
:31:04. > :31:14.clarify. Evolution through Islam is going to the mainstream views quite
:31:14. > :31:16.
:31:16. > :31:20.simple, but I don't believe in that. God created this. I wouldn't have
:31:20. > :31:30.time to two into details, but if a person believes in that, this
:31:30. > :31:33.
:31:33. > :31:38.person is going against a principle This is the point. If you agree
:31:38. > :31:47.with something that is embraced by the vast majority of scientists,
:31:47. > :31:51.you are not a proper Muslim? This is it. My worry is that these
:31:51. > :31:57.minority views have now so it influenced mainstream religion but
:31:57. > :32:06.a lot of people think religion is just about being an tedious, anti-
:32:06. > :32:16.women, and his sexuality. -- anti- sexuality. When I ask my students,
:32:16. > :32:18.
:32:18. > :32:24.who campaigned for abortion, etc, in this country? The Church of
:32:24. > :32:28.England. We pushed forward for sexual liberalisation. People have
:32:28. > :32:38.forgotten that will stop there has been a complete turnaround since
:32:38. > :32:39.
:32:39. > :32:45.the 1960s. The Catholic Church has condemned this. People have not
:32:45. > :32:52.been able to resist the voice of saying it is the one true way.
:32:52. > :33:01.Fundamentalism has had a huge impact. I know this is what you
:33:01. > :33:05.think as well - it is all about the perception of your religion.
:33:05. > :33:11.Absolutely. You pick up any newspaper. In the media, the
:33:11. > :33:16.stories we hear about Islam, fundamentalism, extremism, all
:33:17. > :33:21.those words are bandied about. The mass population - most of us here
:33:21. > :33:28.in Britain - get a lot of information about faith and Islam
:33:28. > :33:33.from the media. It is a real issue. When fundamentalism causes that
:33:33. > :33:41.sort of reaction and limits women from entering a mosque and taking
:33:41. > :33:48.part in discussion, that is where we have issues. It is blocking a
:33:48. > :33:54.face from exploring and being the best it can be. Fundamentalism
:33:54. > :34:04.breeds intolerance. It breeds intolerance a game. It is a vicious
:34:04. > :34:08.
:34:08. > :34:17.circle which goes round and round. -- intolerance again. How does this
:34:17. > :34:23.manifest itself a what you have seen? I want to ask our Muslim
:34:23. > :34:28.friends about what few they take about in the vast majority of
:34:28. > :34:38.mosques in Bradford and Keith LEA, the a mums up pretty well and
:34:38. > :34:44.
:34:44. > :34:54.educated? -- Imams are pretty well uneducated. This does lead to a
:34:54. > :34:55.
:34:55. > :35:03.situation we are hearing off. There is a women's prayer room in
:35:03. > :35:10.Keighley. To the best of my knowledge, it has never been used.
:35:11. > :35:17.I wonder if we are able to get better educated people - who have
:35:17. > :35:24.been educated in this country. any of them support you in your
:35:24. > :35:34.campaign against forced marriages? Not open. It is cultural. It is
:35:34. > :35:35.
:35:35. > :35:39.cultural. It is not in the Koran. It is cultural. I agree with you
:35:39. > :35:49.110%. They cannot speak English. They do not know the society they
:35:49. > :35:59.live in. They are told what to say and what not to say. It is changing
:35:59. > :36:02.
:36:02. > :36:08.but there are areas where we have mosques with very intelligent
:36:08. > :36:16.in English. People need to understand the context. Is it
:36:16. > :36:26.cultural question I I do not believe it is culture. -- it is it
:36:26. > :36:26.
:36:26. > :36:30.cultural? I believe that in Islam, what can testify a forced marriage
:36:30. > :36:39.is that they give permission to the parents took choose for their
:36:39. > :36:49.children because it is the best way for them. It is not about
:36:49. > :36:49.
:36:49. > :36:57.translation. I disagree with that. The role of women as not an equal
:36:57. > :37:07.citizen in Islam, as with other religions. Enablement is
:37:07. > :37:09.
:37:09. > :37:19.substituted... Debt is nothing about forcing someone to marry
:37:19. > :37:19.
:37:19. > :37:29.someone. -- there is nothing. can they not get them to condemn it
:37:29. > :37:32.
:37:32. > :37:42.open the? As she said correctly, most of the demands -- Imams are
:37:42. > :37:42.
:37:42. > :37:51.and do not speak English. I know it is true. I am in the community. It
:37:51. > :37:59.is completely prohibited in Islam. I agree with you. There is nothing
:37:59. > :38:06.that subjugate women in the way you have mentioned. In my view, people
:38:06. > :38:09.theologically justify the fact that there is no such thing as rape in a
:38:09. > :38:19.marriage. They theologically justify that people should not come
:38:19. > :38:22.
:38:22. > :38:28.and pray in a mask. People well misuse anything. -- in a mosque.
:38:28. > :38:33.The battle goes on but it is a very complex issue. The key to it is
:38:34. > :38:41.education and maternity. The Lord Mayor of Bradford at the moment is
:38:41. > :38:50.a woman. Nobody talks about it. She is leading the way in her own way.
:38:50. > :39:00.We have to get back to the mosques. It would have been wonderful if
:39:00. > :39:03.
:39:03. > :39:13.just a couple off Imams had said that to force sons or daughters to
:39:13. > :39:14.
:39:14. > :39:23.marry is not right. Just once. Maybe you are too young and you are
:39:23. > :39:33.not revered and venerated like the older guys. Lesley Pilkington, you
:39:33. > :39:33.
:39:33. > :39:38.mentioned the issue earlier on of homosexuality, which is a big
:39:38. > :39:41.challenge. You have been in the news recently, Lesley, an
:39:41. > :39:47.evangelical Christian. You believe every word of the Bible. You work
:39:47. > :39:52.in the news because you were giving counselling... How would you
:39:52. > :39:59.describe it? The young man came to me because he was depressed and
:39:59. > :40:05.unhappy with being homosexual. It is a very controversial area. I
:40:05. > :40:10.respect all the different points of view. As a fundamental Christian -
:40:10. > :40:16.a Bible believing Christian - I believe in the whole council of God.
:40:16. > :40:23.If people are depressed and unhappy with homosexuality, often it is
:40:23. > :40:26.because they have a face. We work with the concept of sin and the
:40:26. > :40:36.fact there is a way out. It is important to take the whole council
:40:36. > :40:43.
:40:43. > :40:47.Do not look at me when you say saying. You have been typecast!
:40:47. > :40:53.mentioned saying and what I am saying, and you were quite scared
:40:54. > :41:00.about it. Actually it is a good thing. If someone is concerned, we
:41:00. > :41:06.are all sinners. We are born in a sinful state. That is why we need
:41:06. > :41:13.the Lord Jesus Christ who came to earth to pay the price for our
:41:13. > :41:21.saying, for all of us, for the whole of mankind. I am not imposing
:41:21. > :41:25.my fuse. I respect all of your views. If you are concerned about
:41:25. > :41:32.your sin, it is a good thing. It is telling me that God is working in
:41:32. > :41:39.your life. Your brand of Christianity is angry and hateful,
:41:39. > :41:43.some safer stub if you come to me because you are depressed -- if
:41:43. > :41:50.people are coming to you because they are depressed because they are
:41:50. > :41:58.gay, some would say, it is not a problem, you are what you are.
:41:58. > :42:04.thought this was right for me. I want to finish. If someone is happy
:42:04. > :42:12.in that homosexuality, it is not my issue. Shouldn't you be making them
:42:12. > :42:22.happy? They are saying it is not all right. If you are and you are
:42:22. > :42:22.
:42:22. > :42:29.happy, it is fine. Thank you. you happy? I am happy and proud -
:42:29. > :42:39.very happy. What I want to contribute, and linked to the
:42:39. > :42:43.subject that is being discussed, I do not understand where people with
:42:43. > :42:51.fundamental views, I do not understand the gospel of the Bible
:42:51. > :43:01.that they read. I speak as a Christian. Chooses is what everyone
:43:01. > :43:01.
:43:01. > :43:09.- homosexuals, women - everyone. -- Jesus. To be homosexuals does not
:43:09. > :43:18.make cute a sinner. Those who hold extreme views are creating trouble
:43:18. > :43:24.for Jesus. -- make you a sinner. Jesus is for everybody because he
:43:24. > :43:31.came to cure our sinful condition. If we repent of our sin, he will
:43:31. > :43:38.wipe away, like he has done for me, all those wrong thoughts -
:43:38. > :43:48.including homosexual thoughts. they wrong? In the Bible, they are.
:43:48. > :43:49.
:43:49. > :43:57.It is not sinful. You interpret it to be simple. It is natural to be
:43:57. > :44:02.sinful. We can change our nature through Jesus. I will require you
:44:02. > :44:12.to answer this question. When young men come to you and they think they
:44:12. > :44:16.
:44:16. > :44:24.are gay, what do you say to them? From the Islamic perspective, it is
:44:24. > :44:32.the mainstream Orthodox do Dom I am not asking that. I say, this is a
:44:32. > :44:39.sin. It is a sin in Islam and we will deal with it. If someone had
:44:39. > :44:47.said, I am engrossed in stealing, I would say, you have to take a step
:44:47. > :44:50.back, get a job perhaps. One of his criminal, one is not? How would you
:44:50. > :44:55.help that gay person stepped back from being a question I would
:44:55. > :45:02.advise them and give them cancelling and advise them about
:45:02. > :45:12.the message of God that it is a sin. It is a major sinful stub it does
:45:12. > :45:16.
:45:16. > :45:24.not mean that I do not humanise that person. -- a major sin. I do
:45:24. > :45:31.not censor that person. Is it insane that it is sinful to be
:45:31. > :45:37.homosexuals? It is working its way to rout the community. Girls have
:45:37. > :45:47.been brought in from Pakistan to be wives. She discovered her husband
:45:47. > :45:49.
:45:49. > :45:53.is gay. What should she do? These Fundamentalism is undermining faith
:45:53. > :45:57.because it starts from a position that we are born as sinners. I
:45:57. > :46:02.start from the completely different position. A completely different
:46:02. > :46:07.position. We are born with pure souls. From that, we move out. And
:46:07. > :46:12.I want to be able to set a very different agenda, an agenda that
:46:12. > :46:16.says that we are equal, men and women. Whatever sexuality. I agree
:46:16. > :46:22.with you. Lesley? Abdullah, we are going to
:46:22. > :46:27.let the women speak. If I may speak, please. May a woman speak? What's
:46:27. > :46:31.happening in our nation is we are sidelining the whole issue of sin.
:46:31. > :46:36.If we do that, we sideline the cross and Jesus. This is what's
:46:36. > :46:40.happening and a really good way of doing that, bless your brother, but
:46:40. > :46:45.doing that is saying homosexuality is not a sin. The way out to the
:46:45. > :46:51.sinner has been paid by the Lord Jesus Christ, it's the way to
:46:51. > :46:58.freedom. I'm shocked now because I do think we are sinful. But...
:46:58. > :47:04.feel a but coming on. I don't know about you? Why this focus on
:47:04. > :47:10.homosexuality? Is it relatively recent? Incredibly. It was never an
:47:10. > :47:16.obsession of the church's or the mosque's previously. It's another
:47:16. > :47:22.symptom of this, well if the modern world says X, we must say Y. I
:47:22. > :47:26.don't think so. What about real sins? Child abuse? What about
:47:26. > :47:32.bullying, child abuse, violence, domestic violence, these things
:47:32. > :47:35.that affect millions of people and you are focusing on homosexuals.
:47:35. > :47:40.are not focus on it. I'm giving you my opinion because others seek to
:47:40. > :47:44.make it such a big issue. I'm simply saying that the historical
:47:44. > :47:50.position, you say that history historically... If I may interrupt,
:47:50. > :47:54.and far be it for me to ever do that, but it's because a law, it's
:47:54. > :47:59.illegal, it's lawful, absolutely lawful to be homosexual and illegal
:47:59. > :48:04.to discriminate against those who are. That's the point. What we've
:48:04. > :48:08.got is human law against the law of the Bible, whereas in the past we
:48:08. > :48:14.respected the law of the Bible and the law of the Bible on moral
:48:14. > :48:20.issues was generally, not always, took a Christian and slave to ban
:48:20. > :48:26.the slave trade in the early 1800s, but generally speaking, it's been
:48:26. > :48:29.respected and it made the basis of the laws up until the 60s, it was
:48:29. > :48:34.the Bible. Thst this male purity again, a particular model of what
:48:34. > :48:40.it is to be a man which is threatened by homosexuality. Also
:48:40. > :48:43.being a woman is threatened by being a lesbian. No, being a
:48:43. > :48:51.homosexual woman or man is threatening to a particular strange
:48:51. > :48:55.view. It's just wrong, Linda. Yvonne? I used to be a practising
:48:55. > :49:02.Christian and studied Islam for two years before I decided that for me
:49:02. > :49:09.it was right. The big turn off that I found with Christianity is this
:49:09. > :49:18.original sin. We are all sinners. It isn't in Judaism or Islam and
:49:18. > :49:26.also the scriptures are very anti- women and in the New Testament -
:49:26. > :49:34.I'm not an expert on what's contained... Let's have a
:49:34. > :49:38.revolution... Terminology, yes. I found that women are portrayed as
:49:38. > :49:43.tempt ress, see ductive people, and in negative roles, and in Islam,
:49:43. > :49:48.the Koran which we believe is the word of God which is why it hasn't
:49:48. > :49:54.changed one word in 1400 years makes it perfectly clear, crystal
:49:54. > :49:59.clear that women are equal in spirituality, worth and education.
:49:59. > :50:02.Unfortunately, that has been hijacked by cultures. OK, the other
:50:02. > :50:06.thing here is is the consequences of not abiding by a particular
:50:06. > :50:09.creed as well, which is what we've already touched on, haven't we,
:50:10. > :50:13.that you are either with us or against us, and if you are against
:50:13. > :50:18.us, of course, you are for the hot place, aren't you, Mark? The only
:50:18. > :50:26.way to have paradise is, you say through gee sis, the only way to
:50:26. > :50:30.obtain paradise, you say, Abdullah, and I count you both as friends, is
:50:30. > :50:35.through Islam -- through Jesus. I don't know about paradise and you
:50:35. > :50:40.Alex. Would you be working hard to save Abdullah, for example? I would
:50:41. > :50:46.treat Abdullah as he is, he's a man with a very good brain, he's a man
:50:46. > :50:50.who's committed himself... As are you? Health and Safety a man
:50:50. > :50:55.committing himself to a way of life what I disagree with. I would try
:50:55. > :50:59.and befriend him and discuss with him... Jesus in And his claims, and
:50:59. > :51:04.he'd discuss with me the claims of Mohammed and we'd see where our
:51:04. > :51:08.conversation gets to. At the end of the day, it's his free will what he
:51:08. > :51:11.does with what I tell him and if people reject the message of Jesus
:51:11. > :51:16.Christ, well they will answer on a day of judgment. What will happen
:51:16. > :51:24.to them? The Bible says all sinners will be judged by just God who will
:51:24. > :51:31.do right. Which version is that? They will go to hell, a place of
:51:31. > :51:36.eternal core chur. He's convinced you are going there? He hasn't read
:51:36. > :51:42.the Bible, the Bible is speaking the truth. You need to read the
:51:42. > :51:45.scriptures. ALL SPEAK AT ONCE -- eternal torture. Lesley? We have a
:51:46. > :51:50.completely different take and thank you for this opportunity, we really
:51:50. > :51:55.need to understand the differences. We have to respect the differences
:51:55. > :51:59.but we have to understand them. What is the unique offer of the
:51:59. > :52:04.Lord Jesus Christ, we have to understand that. Are you listening
:52:04. > :52:08.Abdullah? He's fine. If he had the will of the whole mankind to
:52:08. > :52:12.believe in him, he would have done so, but he made some of us
:52:12. > :52:17.believers and some non-believers to test who among us are good in
:52:17. > :52:22.character, so we can have a belief and understanding. Paradise is
:52:22. > :52:29.through Islam though? Yes but there are two things here. It doesn't
:52:29. > :52:32.mean that I treat another human being that way. I'm looking at
:52:33. > :52:35.people, babies, infant death mortality born in a different
:52:35. > :52:40.religion to Christianity or Islam. Somebody came to me once, a
:52:40. > :52:45.Christian missionary said, you will suffer in hell, something akin to
:52:45. > :52:51.the extermination camps. I said, what about the kids killed in the
:52:51. > :52:55.extermination camps Jews, brought up in a Jewish environment who who
:52:55. > :53:00.were taken off to the camps and he said, I'm sorry, their soul is not
:53:00. > :53:03.safe, they've not found Jew suss. That's totally unacceptable. We all
:53:03. > :53:08.believe, all our faiths believe we were created in the image of God
:53:08. > :53:14.and therefore we should respect that image because not to do so is
:53:14. > :53:18.to desecrate God. How devisive is this? It's all very well saying I
:53:18. > :53:27.treat you as a human, I treat you as such but when you die you will
:53:27. > :53:32.burn in hell. From my point of view, as a Jew, if you lead the right way,
:53:32. > :53:42.whether you are Jewish, Islam, atheist, then tough same space in
:53:42. > :53:43.
:53:43. > :53:47.the world to come as anybody else. That is a Jewish teaching. Joy
:53:47. > :53:53.goes back to interpretation and fundamentalism, who am I, we, be we
:53:53. > :53:56.Muslim, Jewish, Christian, whoever, to ever imagine that we could
:53:56. > :54:01.actually guess what God's decision's going to be on somebody.
:54:01. > :54:06.God said in the Koran very clearly, I'm a Muslim, he said every single
:54:06. > :54:10.person is rewarded for the atoms' worth of good they do. It's very
:54:10. > :54:14.interesting here also that... Having the right to make that
:54:14. > :54:21.judgment is extraordinary you are saying? Absolutely. The other thing
:54:21. > :54:26.is here, why do you want to convert Abdullah? Because I love it.
:54:26. > :54:31.can't you just leave him alone? You have only just met him? As a
:54:31. > :54:34.Christian, God puts his love in our hearts for fellow human beings
:54:34. > :54:37.which is why we don't go out hating people, we love them and seek to
:54:37. > :54:43.win them in the same way that Christ won us for. That's the real
:54:44. > :54:49.love that a man has for his neighbour. Why did God make Muslims
:54:49. > :54:53.or Jews or atheists? What are we here for? He's given us free will
:54:53. > :54:59.to choose which way to go and he's given us the answer in the Bible.
:54:59. > :55:02.Or she. God speak to you? What happened when God speak to you?
:55:02. > :55:05.saying that I was ant Christian, I didn't go to church. All of a
:55:06. > :55:11.sudden, I was in a state of drunkenness and I couldn't believe
:55:11. > :55:17.it because I thought I was going mad. I wasn't a Christian, I didn't
:55:17. > :55:21.go to church, but then I realised after a came home when I was sober,
:55:21. > :55:23.I realised something is going on with me and my life. So the
:55:23. > :55:29.following day, I still didn't believe that to maist, I thought
:55:29. > :55:35.the last thing I wanted to be was to go to church -- myself. Did you
:55:35. > :55:40.heard the voice of God? I heard a voice like you are speaking to me.
:55:40. > :55:49.When you were sober? No, I was absolutely drunk. You are on the
:55:49. > :55:54.same side, what are you saying? It's not... It's a choice you make.
:55:54. > :56:00.Fine, God can pull people in. I think that all three faiths are
:56:00. > :56:04.waiting for the Messiah, why can't we all wait together? It's a
:56:04. > :56:07.different Messiah. Let's wait together. Is there a
:56:07. > :56:11.fight Khalid for the heart and soul of your religion do you think at
:56:11. > :56:17.the moment? Well, I think there's definitely a discussion. Obviously
:56:17. > :56:24.our faith is particularly polarised at the moment because we have got
:56:24. > :56:28.the real extremism, fundamentalism, terrorism, which is trying or it's
:56:28. > :56:32.around and it's something that we have to have discourse with within
:56:33. > :56:37.our community to make sure that everybody stays within, which is
:56:37. > :56:41.quite a big area that we'd call the middle ground. But I think coming
:56:41. > :56:45.back to your point about heaven and hell, you know, why do we want...
:56:45. > :56:51.If we are condemning somebody else to hell, surely we are looking down
:56:51. > :56:56.on them. I mean, I don't have place for that. As Haras said, God is
:56:56. > :57:03.going to judge everybody. Or not, as the case may be. That's for God
:57:03. > :57:06.alone to judge. In the Koran it also says that... In Why is that
:57:06. > :57:10.irrational? If you believe in heaven or hell, that means God is
:57:10. > :57:16.looking down upon everybody because he created heaven or hell. God also
:57:17. > :57:24.says in the Koran that amongst the people, Christians, Jews, there are
:57:24. > :57:29.good. Of course. We are not there to judge anybody else. What about
:57:29. > :57:33.the demographic? What is happening with fundamentalism in this
:57:33. > :57:37.country? Where will we be with it in 20 years? It's not necessarily
:57:37. > :57:40.growing. There is an argument that fundamentalists have more children.
:57:40. > :57:44.That's not necessarily true of Christian fundamentalists but might
:57:44. > :57:47.be true of the Jewish community. is. We are not going to see this
:57:47. > :57:51.country overrun by fundamentalism so again, I think the bigger
:57:51. > :57:57.question is what will happen to the religious majority in this country
:57:57. > :58:02.who don't really have a voice now but who are decent people with
:58:02. > :58:05.absolute conviction. Muddled? are not. What's wrong with being
:58:05. > :58:09.muddled? What I've just heard people saying is, if you don't
:58:09. > :58:13.agree with me, you are wrong and you are saying and you're muddled
:58:13. > :58:18.and I'm saying know. I believe my beliefs with absolute conviction
:58:18. > :58:21.and try and live by them but I've got a very small brain, I don't
:58:21. > :58:24.think I can understand everything and I think that other people might
:58:24. > :58:31.possibility be right and I'm going to listen to them and I don't think
:58:31. > :58:34.that our views are necessarily compatible. I'm stuck in the middle
:58:34. > :58:37.between anti-modernists and liberals on the other side both who
:58:37. > :58:41.say you have got it wrong. The more right wing we go, the more Cisse I
:58:41. > :58:46.have a list of things that are sins and wrong if you don't comply, you
:58:46. > :58:50.are not authentic and Orthodox and the Liberals will say, having this
:58:50. > :58:55.debate, I agree with you, liberalism has to be more strorm
:58:55. > :59:00.armed if it wants to come out. strong armed. We sorted that one
:59:00. > :59:03.out. Give yourselves a round of applause. Thank you for taking part.